I decided to create a thread for this show since I just recently finished it via Netflix. I'll admit that I wouldn't have even considered watching this show if it weren't for Avaitor's recommendation, but, I took that into account, and also figured that since I liked Firefly, Serenity, and The Avengers, it was worth it to give Joss Whedon's first TV series a shot. And, for what it is, I thought it was a pretty fun and entertaining show on the whole. It has a lot of flaws of its own, and its definitely not as strong a show as something like Firefly (though to be fair, that show may have developed more flaws if it actually had the chance to go on longer), but its still a great series in its own right, if you can get past some of the 90's cheese-factor along with the hilariously low production-values (even for the time). I figured that I'd sort of do what I did in some other threads, and rate this series in separate parts (in this case by seasons), with all scores being relative to the show itself, rather than being compared to any other shows:
Season 1 - 7/10
A decent start to the series, but it severely lacked the character depth and level of writing of future seasons. It was also the season that was most plagued by bad 90's era dialogue and cliches.
Season 2 - 10/10
The 2nd half of the season where Angel turns into Angelus is the main reason it rates so high for me, but having Spike present throughout most of the season also helps maintain it as a thoroughly awesome package the entire way through.
Season 3 - 10/10
The Mayor was yet another great villain, and the addition of characters like Faith created some interesting contrasts to the team. Buffy also had some interesting dilemmas to overcome throughout this season. This was, overall, probably the most consistently well-written portion of the show.
Season 4 - 6/10
Boring. Adam was a boring villain. Riley was a boring replacement for Angel. And the plot was just stupid most of the time. The only thing that really saved this season from being more boring, for me, was the inclusion of Spike, who really helped bring a lot of flavor to a mostly tasteless season with his great sense of humor. I really think the weakness of this season was probaly because Whedon was paying more attention to Angel's 1st season at the time, but that's just speculation, on my part. I will say that the episode "Hush" is easily one of the best episodes in the entire series though, so there is that.
Season 5 - 9/10
I think that this season was definitely a return to form for the series. You once again had a really threatening villain and a lot of heavy-handed stuff going on with the plot, including the death of Buffy's mother, Joyce, which was made even heavier by the fact it it was actually a "natural" death, which I have come to realize is ironically one of the most unnatural things to happen in this show. The only thing that keeps this from being a full 10 for me is that I CANNOT STAND DAWN. If the writers were intending to make her as obnoxious and annoying of a character as possible, then they actually did too good of a job. I don't mind how she was written into the plot, but the character honestly has no bright spots for me. There are many scenes that could have gone really well with a much better-written character, but Dawn just sucked the fun out of any scene that she had any sort of significance in. Still, even her inclusion couldn't do too much damage to what was otherwise a great season.
Season 6 - 6/10
The Spike and Buffy relationship was stupid. Everyone knows that, though ironically, just like with season 4, Spike was once again the best thing about this season, OUTSIDE of his relationship with Buffy (he was still funny as hell). The villains being The Triad (of nerds), including previously recurring characters like Warren, Jonathan, and Andrew was a stupid idea for the main villains of this season (it would have worked better as a one-off idea). I will say that I did actually like the finale of this season with Willow (though her character arc in this season dropped her from being my favorite female character in the series), and yet again, just like with season 4, it had one of the best episodes in the entire series in "Once More, With Feeling."
Season 7 - 8/10
It could be kind of wonky at times, and sort of suffered from a lot of the convoluted character development and plot-lines that had been mostly started from previous seasons, but the writing surprisingly held itself together pretty well despite all of that. We got a real sense of dread that was suitable for a final season of this sort, which is definitely a feat considering that we had already gotten that from previous seasons, so the fact that this season could make it seem like it was even bigger of a deal than that was really a testament to how well they managed to ratchet up the tension, here. I will also state my very unpopular opinion that I actually liked this season finale (and consequently the TV series finale) more than the season 5 finale, "The Gift." I really did like "The Gift," but something about this finale just made me feel like it was really a bigger deal. While "The Gift" was primarily focused on Buffy's resolve as a character, "Chosen" managed to feel like it was about everyone involved, rather than just Buffy, and considering how many characters the series had incorporated into the story by that point, that was no small feat. So, on the whole, I found season 7 to be a mostly great season for the show to go out on, even if it certainly wasn't close to the best season if the series.
So, yeah, on the whole I liked this show a lot. It has plenty of flaws, but I think the good far outweighs the bad, here. I'll create a new thread and give my ratings for each season of Angel once I finish that show, which may even be later today.
I should really do a rewatch of this show once I finish college. But there's always that sour feeling when your favorite characters like Cordelia appear in the first season as unlikable pricks. You know they're going to develop into someone cooler, but the first impressions are always the oddest.
I could only really do this for like, the first 3 seasons, but even then, I suck at ranking stuff like this.
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on August 20, 2013, 02:11:36 PM
I should really do a rewatch of this show once I finish college. But there's always that sour feeling when your favorite characters like Cordelia appear in the first season as unlikable pricks. You know they're going to develop into someone cooler, but the first impressions are always the oddest.
EVERYONE is really different in the first season. You can tell the inexperience of the writers, directors, and actors during that first season of the show. Thankfully they step things up big time as early as the 2nd season, and even Cordelia grows out of her 1-dimensional bitch phase by that point in the series. Of course, her character development on Angel is just so good that it probably really would feel jarring to go straight back to the beginning and see what she was like at that time. I swear, by the end of Angel, Cordelia has become a completely different character in every single aspect than what she originally was. I find that to be pretty awesome, personally, and its saying a lot that someone like her ended up being my favorite female character in the entire Buffy-verse, and my 2nd favorite Character on Angel (Angelus is my favorite, and I mean specifically Angelus).
Quote from: Avaitor on August 20, 2013, 02:17:49 PM
I could only really do this for like, the first 3 seasons, but even then, I suck at ranking stuff like this.
Well, It's not really ranking them. I was only just rating each season on a scale relative to the best and worst of the show, itself.
You know what my favorite episode of the show is, aside from OMWF and "The Body"? And maybe "Hush". And maybe "Restless".
"The Zeppo". It's such a fun little episode which completely helped to build up on Xander's character. It also has great bits for Faith and even bitchy Cordy, among others. Playing around with the show's serious side also helped towards its advantage.
My friend talked me into watching this.
Starting at season 1. And it has been a LONG time. And no, I won't quit because it's dated or anything. I know season 1 is almost always the weakest season in almost any show.
I'm not a Whedonite but I'll give it another chance.
It was either this or Supernatural.
I have a feeling that you'll appreciate Xander though.
I'm a bit over halfway through season 1. Angel is still my favorite part of the show, though I don't really dislike anybody (except Buffy at the beginning STOP WHINING), but the plots and writing aren't all that strong yet. Right now it's a decent MOTW show with some fun characters but I know it'll improve so I'll stick around.
I can't believe they ate the Principal. I knew he was a jerk but... wow.
Whedon seems to have a bit of Togashi-ism in his writing style when it comes to killing off characters for the sake of shock value (or maybe it's vice versa). :sly:
Season 1 wasn't anything special for me, either, but it was a fun watch for what it was. I think season 2 is really when the writing in this show started to get legitimately good, and Spike and Angelus were the first truly memorable villains in the series. Season 3 is arguably the strongest season in the show, and Faith makes for a pretty good anti-hero to contrast Buffy. Season 4 is rather weak, IMO, but it has some strong episodes in there (most notably "Hush"). Season 5 is another really strong season. Season 6 is probably my least favorite season in the show, but it does have OMWF and a surprisingly good finale to sort of make up for it. And finally, there's season 7, which is the perfect conclusion to the show, IMO.
Overall, it's a surprisingly good show given how bad or cheesy it could have been given the subject material. It's not consistently great, but when it's great, it really stands out as some of the best programming to have ever been on television (at least as far as my limited experience with TV shows can tell). I'm glad to see you give the show another shot. Personally, I think it's just as good as Angel, as both shows have their own set of strengths and weaknesses.
Yeah, season 1 wasn't all too great. The invisible episode kind of totally lost me (other than Cordelia showing she might have depth beyond being a cardboard cut-out) and the finale was sort of muddled. Still, I really liked the episode focused on Angel so I'll keep on trucking to see what's next.
... Really? Government assassins? That was like a Goosebumps ending shot.
Yeah, "Angel" is easily the best episode of the first season, give or take the finale.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on September 08, 2013, 08:00:44 PMYeah, season 1 wasn't all too great. The invisible episode kind of totally lost me (other than Cordelia showing she might have depth beyond being a cardboard cut-out) and the finale was sort of muddled. Still, I really liked the episode focused on Angel so I'll keep on trucking to see what's next.
Cordelia gets a lot more development in the next 2 seasons, though she still doesn't become the strong kind of character that we know her as on Angel....until that show itself actually starts. :sweat:
Even so, it's still great to see her develop from a bratty teenage bitch into a strong female figure who can prove that there's more to her than just trying to be popular. Hell, she gives up that angle pretty much by season 3 of Buffy, even though she tries to pretend that she's still that kind of person.
Also, if Angel was your favorite aspect of the show so far, then I think you'll really like season 2, because he gets a ton of focus, there. This is also the best we ever see of Angelus, IMO. His presence on Angel (the show) is great as well, but he never had quite the same impact to me as he did in season 2 of Buffy, where he definitely came off as his most threatening. And not just because of "Passion" (one of the best episodes in the entire series), but more so in how far he could go with his sadistic mental torture of Buffy and her friends. He managed to put her through all kinds of hell, and in many cases he did so without having to lift a single finger against her personally to do it.
QuoteReally? Government assassins? That was like a Goosebumps ending shot.
If you thought that was bad, you certainly aren't going to like season 4 (I know I wasn't a fan of it). :humhumhum:
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on September 08, 2013, 10:32:38 PM
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on September 08, 2013, 08:00:44 PMYeah, season 1 wasn't all too great. The invisible episode kind of totally lost me (other than Cordelia showing she might have depth beyond being a cardboard cut-out) and the finale was sort of muddled. Still, I really liked the episode focused on Angel so I'll keep on trucking to see what's next.
Cordelia gets a lot more development in the next 2 seasons, though she still doesn't become the strong kind of character that we know her as on Angel....until that show itself actually starts. :sweat:
Even so, it's still great to see her develop from a bratty teenage bitch into a strong female figure who can prove that there's more to her than just trying to be popular. Hell, she gives up that angle pretty much by season 3 of Buffy, even though she tries to pretend that she's still that kind of person.
Also, if Angel was your favorite aspect of the show so far, then I think you'll really like season 2, because he gets a ton of focus, there. This is also the best we ever see of Angelus, IMO. His presence on Angel (the show) is great as well, but he never had quite the same impact to me as he did in season 2 of Buffy, where he definitely came off as his most threatening. And not just because of "Passion" (one of the best episodes in the entire series), but more so in how far he could go with his sadistic mental torture of Buffy and her friends. He managed to put her through all kinds of hell, and in many cases he did so without having to lift a single finger against her personally to do it.
I watched the first episode of season 2 not long after posting that, and it really was a tenfold improvement over the first season. Though I still have more to see, it does bode well.
QuoteQuoteReally? Government assassins? That was like a Goosebumps ending shot.
If you thought that was bad, you certainly aren't going to like season 4 (I know I wasn't a fan of it). :humhumhum:
No. freaking. way. :srs:
To be honest, I don't mind the idea of the whole Government Conspiracy angle, because Buffy at it's core has always been like a campy horror show that just happens to have way better than average writing and acting (at least when it's at its best), which makes for surprisingly good drama that can actually make you take most of the insane things that you are seeing on screen pretty seriously, and legitimately enjoy it. That said, all of season 4's problems both amount to and can be summed up in one word: Boring....
I'll say that there are only 2 things that saved season 4 from being a total waste for me, and actually made most of it pretty watchable when it could have been much worse than that, and those 2 thins are: "Hush" and Spike. "Hush" is one of the best episodes of the entire show, and Spike becoming a recurring character in season 4 was terrific, as he really added in a huge fun factor to the show, which it seriously needed to counteract the dullness of Riley and The Initiative. Also, Adam is easily the most boring villain in the show.
Well I also really like "Restless" and the episode when Buffy and Faith switch bodies. Although I would've liked the latter better if Riley wasn't in there at all.
So "Once More, With Feeling" is Wiki's article of the day.
Spark, how far are you into the show now?
I'm only up to just after Spike's introduction. I haven't had time to watch much in a while.
I've been rewatching Buffy and Angel on and off over the past couple of years, and just finally hit season 4 of Buffy (I actually already went through the first handful of Angel eps, since we didn't have that season of Buffy but did have the first 3 of Angel, but I'm more caught up now), and I just got up to Faith's return.
Now you see, if the season was more like this, focusing on the Scooby gang and the aftermath of the last season, this would be a much strong season. But the Initiative is such a dull storyarc, while Riley's basically just there.
I finished season 4 of Buffy a few days ago, and went through the bonuses. In the season retrospective, Joss argued that while structurally, S4 isn't very strong, on an episode-by-episode basis, there's a lot of great episodes. I can't really argue with that. While the main storyline came off as disappointing, there are very few episodes that I feel are particularly weak.
Now to go to season 5 and season 2 of Angel!
I think Spike and the episode "Hush" were probably the best things about the 4th season.
As for season 5, I think that it's on par with seasons 2 and 3 in terms of overall quality.
Hmm, what about "Restless"? I think that's even better than "Hush", myself.
So, out of pure boredom I decided to rank the seasons in the entire Buffy/Angel-verse from best to worst:
1. Buffy season 2- The Angelus story-line makes this season for me, and I still regard it as the pinnacle of the show, personally
2. Angel season 5- It's not the tightest story-line, but this has to have the best character dynamic out of any season in the entire series thanks to how well Angel and a Spike play off of each other
3. Buffy season 3- Easily the second best story-line in the series, with plenty of great one-shot episodes as well
4. Angel season 1- I know most people find the first season to be shaky, but honestly I really liked it, in that instead of a main story-line we got a nice string of great one-shot episodes; that, and Doyle was an awesome character
5. Angel season 3- Mother Fucking Holtz; 'Nuff said
6. Buffy season 5- Despite most of the one-shots in this season being rather weak, the main story-line was terrific
7. Buffy season 7- May have been a bit too overcrowded with characters,but it had a good story-line going, and a fantastic finale to make it a great closing season for the show
8. Angel season 2- Honestly it's really tied with Buffy season 7 for me, in that it has flaws, but it also has a great story-line underneath all of those little issues, which makes it worth watching; I only give Buffy the edge due to this season having a finale that basically comes out of nowhere
9. Buffy season 6- Spike and Buffy was a stupid relationship, and the main "villains" of this season were a joke, but putting that aside, it had a lot of great one-shot episodes, IMO
10. Buffy season 4- Yes, it has "Hush," and a few other good one-shots, but the main story-line sucks, and Adam is easily the worst villain in the series
11. Buffy season 1- Nothing in particular against it, and it does establish the characters and setting, but it's mostly a product of its time, and it hasn't aged all that well, IMO
12. Angel season 4- Connor fucks Cordelia and gets her pregnant with Gina Torres; WTF were they smoking when they came up with this shit? This makes AOS at least look passable in comparison, which is saying a lot; and while the return of Angelus is always a welcome sight, it doesn't make up for the rest of the BS we have to put up with in this season
I'm back on my rewatch for both shows, and I'm on season 4 of Angel now. Yeah, it's rough, but worth treading through for the next season.
Besides the whole Connor mess, I can't stand the love triangle between Fred. Wesley and Gunn. My patience for love triangles runs thin to begin with, but while the characters themselves are fine (but not among my favorites, either), I just don't care about their chemistry together to want Fred with either of them. The one where they lose their memory is one of my favorites, since it brings the characters back to what they're acting like- teenagers.
Season 3 of Buffy is my favorite overall, with BtVS S2 and Angel S5 right behind it.
So, does Buffy ever find out that Xander deliberately didn't tell her about stalling to save Angel in the season 2 finale, or am I supposed to not be irritated every time he chews her out for doing the same thing he did without any comeuppance?
As you can tell, I'm on season 3 now.
Season 2 was basically like a better version of season 1 with better standalone episodes and so far season 3 is interesting with the mayor, but, man, am I getting annoyed with Xander's arrogance. It's more annoying since it's been a long time since he's been brought down a peg and everyone always seems to side with him even when he's being just as stupid (at times) as Buffy is.
I do recall Cordelia bringing him down a few pegs later in thus season. Xander becomes much more likable by season 5, though, IMO.
One thing I never liked about Xander (besides leav- wait, I shouldn't spoil you :p) is his self-righteous towards Buffy's relationships with demons. He barely (if at all, really) warmed up to Angel at all, and while his criticism against Spike later on was fair (especially near the very end, when everyone else seemed to be on his side), he doesn't make his argument look any better with his relationship with Anya.
But even if I wouldn't put Xander among my favorite characters, he does have his moments. The few times where he comes on top as the moment of reason are fantastic, and he gets some of the best nerdy references on the show.
My favorite line so far:
"Piece of advice, Faith: You're an idiot."
As a character, I just don't like Faith at all. However, thematically she was a brilliant addition for season 3 to give Buffy a glimpse into what her life could've been like had she given into her darker side.
Yeah, she works for the show, but, man, she grates. About every time she has to make a decision it's almost always the wrong one.
I like Wesley far more. At least he's funny.
Speaking of Wesley, he's another Buffy alumni that gets excellent character development on Angel. When you get to season four of Buffy, I highly recommend watching it alongside Angel (1 episode of each at a time). It really enhancesthe experience for both shows, IMO.
Judging from all the less than enthusiastic comments I hear about Buffy season 4, I'll probably do that. It's been a loooooooooooong time since I saw Angel, anyway.
Forgot to mention that I finished season 3 and am now at the start of Angel season 1 / Buffy season 4.
I really did enjoy the build up throughout the season, and the mayor was an awesome villain on top of it. All in all, I would say it was the best season so far. Will keep watching.
I still think season 2 is my favorite, but season 3 is pretty damn close. Those 2 seasons, along with Angel season 5, are the pinnacle of the Buffy/Angel-verse as a whole, IMO.
Oh yeah, I finished the series earlier this week, and I forgot to do my rankings for it.
Season 1- 7/10
Historically, it's not hard to see why the show instantly stood out- there just wasn't anything like it. In terms of genre, all you really had were stuffy space operas like Star Trek and Babylon 5, anthologies like Tales from the Crypt, and The X-Files, which is ultimately a procedural with some mythology added in here or there. Right from the very beginning, Buffy mixed sci-fi and horror tropes with human experiences in a way that few other series did as successfully at that point. But most of the episodes aren't really that great here. The vision was there, but it took a little time for the writing to step up.
Season 2- 10/10
NOW we're talking. The show was really shaping itself up with the second season, from the surprise reveal of Spike and Dru, and all the way to Angelus' end. It also became justifiably dark in storytelling with the Angelus arc in particular, which is a thing of beauty. It didn't take long for the show to become a favorite for me after hitting season 2.
Season 3- 10/10
And season 3 was even better! Oz was a nice full-time addition to the cast, while Faith made a great contrast to Buffy, as the show continued to get darker. The Mayor also was a fantastic villain, working as both an evil force and a father figure for Faith. Not a weak bunch in this batch, honestly, and this is my favorite season overall.
Season 4- 8/10
Am I being too fair on this one? Maybe. But I agree with Joss that on an episode-by-episode basis, this is mostly a strong season. There's a ton of good individual episodes (not "Beer Bad", though), and the overarching structure is pretty decent at first, as it starts Buffy's life at Sunnydale U. I also give thumbs-up to not only bringing Spike into the fold, but letting Anya join the gang, and Tara making her way in as well. She especially brought a different energy to the show that was welcome. But yeah, there's definitely some issues. Adam is a boring villain. Riley is a boring love interest. The Initiative, in particular, are a boring plot device. There's definitely good here, but season 4 is rarely considered most people's favorites for a reason.
Season 5- 9/10
This is better than the last on many terms, including a stronger villain and overarching storyline, but I can't give it a perfect 10 for one reason- Dawn. Now, I'm not a Dawn hater, since she becomes a smarter, more likable character as the show goes along, but early on? It's tough to sympathize with her. To be fair, I have heard that she was originally going to be written as a younger character, until SMG suggested Michelle Trachtenberg, and that is definitely apparent in her first episode, but... yeah, no. Everything else though? Can't complain. Although Riley did overstay his welcome. :P
Season 6- 8/10
Part of me wants to give this a higher score, but there really are some problems with the season as a whole. While I understand the intent behind Buffy and Spike's romance, it gets uncomfortable fast, especially at the end when he abuses her. The Trio were another weak point, mostly. I give the show points for trying something a little different by making a group of powerless losers be the Big Bad for a change, and they do serve their purpose at times when they succeed at messing with Buffy. And with recent events, having someone like Warren end up as one of the most deadly bad guys on the series is hauntingly accurate to the show's feminist intents. But they do kind of suck, let's be real. I especially hate that Xander left Anya at the altar, which is one thing I can't forgive him for.
However, I'm totally here for Buffy's depression storyline, which is done quite well. Willow's character deconstruction isn't perfect, but I think it's another fascinating thing to see, especially since it has been building up for a while. And like season 4, there are enough great episodes to justify its existence.
Season 7- 8/10
This is also a season that I want to give a higher score, but c'mon, the Potentials. Too many to name, too little to define solid character for, and the one that they did (Kennedy) wasn't worth the venture. But the main storyline is tight, and a great way to end the TV show, with a hell of a finale in particular. It also redeems Spike's actions from last season, only if slightly, and sets up his potential for the final season of Angel.
So yeah. still a great show. I'll come back in a couple of weeks to rank Angel in its thread. ;)
So far I don't see any point for Anya to be there except to make sexual references that have nothing to do with what is currently occurring.
Personally, I'm finding season 4 so boring because there's too much relationship stuff, which is always what I consider the least interesting aspect of any show. Angel season 1 has much less of this and as a whole I'm enjoying it much more.
Anya contributes more as the show goes along and she becomes closer to the group. At first, it seems that they wanted to make sure that pairing her and Xander up wasn't a mistake before she officially became a part of the Scoobies, which is why she's kind of by the sides so far.
Yeah, she develops and becomes a vital member of the cast later on. Riley, on the other hand, I could've done without.
Season 4 was so boring. Adam was a terrible villain. Hush was the only episode that held my interest.
Even the Spike crossover was better on Angel and the Faith episodes were superior there as well (really, a body-switching plot?). If you guys are right and season 5 is a step up, then good, because this did nothing for me at all.
The body switching episode is one of my favorites, actually. It's a great beginning towards Faith's introduction, which her Angel appearances further develop.
Season 5 of Buffy down and only one episode of Angel season 2 to go.
You guys were right, season 5 was a major improvement over the ultimately pointless season 4. The best material involved dealing with Joy's death and pretty much anything involving Spike. Anya did things and was made a much better character. Glory was a much better villain than Adam (a block of wood would have been a better villain than Adam), and the finale was really well done culminating in a noble decision on Buffy's part. Spike's crush was also incredibly hilarious.
A few negatives. Dawn was irritating. The way Riley was written out seemed very forced and out of character to me (not that I was particularly miffed to see him go) and some of the standalone episodes didn't do anything for me, though that's always been one of my personal issues with the show. Lastly, I didn't quite understand what they were going for with Ben. I guess they wanted to show she had a counterpoint that wasn't pitch black evil, but he didn't really do a whole lot and his personality in the finale was a bit... irritating, to say the least. All in all, it was a big step up from season 4, though not quite on par with 2 and 3 for me.
What's left in the last two seasons for me to look forward to? Any hints? ;)
I've read before that Adam was initially meant to be a lame villain, to highlight the fact that the Big Bad of season 4 was change, rather than a palpable threat. That makes me appreciate the season a little bit more, but it doesn't make up for the duller ends of it.
I think that season 6 is a bit lop-sided. On the one-hand, it has a lot of filler-ish stand-alone episodes, and the main plot doesn't really get going until around the second half. On the other hand,MIT has a great character arc for Willo, IMO, and the concluding episodes to the season are great. Also, OMWF is one of my favorite Buffy episodes.
As for season 7, I've heard mixed opinions on it from fans, but I found it to be solid, myself. People criticize the addition of the "Potentials" in that it takes away from focusing in the main cast, which I never really got since it's flat-out untrue. The "Potentials" are really only more of a concept, and of them only Kennedy gets any real focus. The main cast get tons of focus, end even get lots of closure to their own personal story arcs, leading to an excellent conclusion to the entire show. Sometimes I think people just like to complain without thinking about what they are saying in their critiques.
On another note, since you're almost on Angel season 3, I'd say you have a lot to look forward to with that. Some say it's the best season of the show. Personally I'd give that honor to season 5, but season 3 definitely deserves it's reputation as well. I have to say that, aside from Angelus himself, Holtz is easily my 2nd favorite villain of the Buffy/Angel-verse, which is admittedly in large part due to how his backstory is so closely intertwined with Angelus, to begin with. If there's only one aspect of the season that I hate, it's a certain romance that is pushed by the writers, and feels completely forced and out of place. I know that some fans outright despise it. I don't particularly care for it, myself, but it's easy enough for me to look past it and enjoy the rest of the season for what it is. It gave the series so much potential to be even bigger and better than before....which unfortunately was killed by season 4, but never let it be said that season 3 was not the perfect set-up for true television greatness.
I don't think that the Potentials necessarily steal screentime away from the better characters (if anything, Andrew does, and I kind of like him myself), but their presence always felt a little disappointing, since most of the girls were really just... there. I'd be fine with the girls getting some screentime, but most of them didn't make much of an impact, even Miranda from Lizzie McGuire or Felicia Day. Only Kennedy and Millie from Freaks and Geeks seemed to have any memorable material. It felt like a bit of a waste to me.
I already did my list for Angel. And as promised, here's what I came up with for Buffy:
10. Once More, with Feeling (6-07)
9. Chosen (7-22)
8. Innocence (2-14)
7. Hush (4-10)
6. The Body (5-16)
5. Becoming Part 1/2 (2-21/22)
4. Dopplegangland (3-16)
3. Graduation Day Part 1/2 (3-21/22)
2. Passion (2-17)
1. Fool for Love (5-07)
Next I'll probably do a list of my top 10 favorite Monk episodes.
Cool lists! "Fool for Love" is a great one that while I don't think about it that much, would very likely make my top 20. I'll come back to Angel soon, but let me do Buffy, first.
10- Conversations With Dead People
9- Seeing Red
8- Innocence
7- The Gift
6- The Zeppo
5- Becoming
4- The Body
3- Restless
2- Once More, With Feeling
1- Passion
Great list! Many of those almost made my list (The Zeppo just missed it). I would've expected more season 3 episodes from you, though, considering that it's your favorite.
I'm glad to see that we agree on the 5 entries that our lists have in common, though. ;)
Yeah, there are 4 or 5 season 3 episodes that could have easily made it in, but there are also many other episodes from the other seasons that could have made it in. There are just that many good ones to consider.
I'll work on my Angel list soon, but I forgot to mention that I actually watched "The Body" again earlier this week. Besides everything else, one thing that always sticks with me is the demon that Buffy slays at the end, after it attacks Dawn in the morgue.
It's such a brilliant way to bring the show back to its daily routine. The rest of the episode wisely forgoes its traditional supernatural (or in this season's case, godly) dilemmas for human reality, but Buffy has always meant to be a combination of both. What better way to bring us back into the fold with a quick return to Buffy's slaying duties?
On the one hand, I thought it would've been nice if the episode managed to keep completely away from any supernatural elements, as a way of saying that, even someone like Buffy cannot escape the harsh realities of life and death in her own family. On the other hand, I can see how re-emphasizing the type of series that this is can also help drive that point home, as it's a sharp contrast to everything else that happens in the episode, but it's also a way of linking us back to the fantastical sort of world that Buffy lives in, and in doing so makes the realistic nature of the episode feel all the more potent for it.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on October 09, 2014, 11:13:50 PM
10. Once More, with Feeling (6-07)
I think this might be the best episode of television made, period. The way the music is used to advance everyone's own plot is brilliant, but it's surprisingly enjoyable enough for new viewers to come in and appreciate without getting lost. It's obviously much higher on my list, and in plenty of circumstances would make my #1. Heck, it might right now, as I think about it.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on October 09, 2014, 11:13:50 PM
9. Chosen (7-22)
I've recently seen a debate between "The Gift" and "Chosen", claiming that "The Gift" works as a stronger episode, but "Chosen" was the perfect finale. That is really true. I think "The Gift" is a brilliant example of sacrifice that I come back to surprisingly often, but I couldn't see the show be a satisfying end. "Chosen", though, isn't as easy for me to rewatch, but it gives me hope and makes me believe that Buffy the Vampire Slayer is done.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on October 09, 2014, 11:13:50 PM
8. Innocence (2-14)
You could easily combine this with "Surprise", especially since they only aired a day apart, but let's be real, "Innocence" is on a whole other level, and made shit go DOWN.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on October 09, 2014, 11:13:50 PM
7. Hush (4-10)
I wouldn't say that "Hush" is overrated, but it's no secret that this isn't my favorite season 4 episode. I have to admit that it almost stops dead for me when the core season plot comes back in, but everything involved with the Gentlemen is just, wow.
If Universal would make a Halloween Horror Nights house based on this episode, I would be there opening night.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on October 09, 2014, 11:13:50 PM
6. The Body (5-16)
Joyce will never have fruit punch again. Just a reminder. .3.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on October 09, 2014, 11:13:50 PM
5. Becoming Part 1/2 (2-21/22)
A hell of a way to end a hell of a season. Both parts are also among my most rewatched Buffy episodes.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on October 09, 2014, 11:13:50 PM
4. Dopplegangland (3-16)
This almost made my list, but I guess that I usually prefer the more serious episodes. It's a whole lot of fun though. The foreshadowing at the end is what I most remember, heh.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on October 09, 2014, 11:13:50 PM
3. Graduation Day Part 1/2 (3-21/22)
Another great finale that nearly made my list, but there were some other great ones that I had to consider. There are too many great scenes to consider about it, but Snyder's death was probably the most cathartic for me. ;)
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on October 09, 2014, 11:13:50 PM
2. Passion (2-17)
Seeing Giles follow the trail of roses to his bedroom has got to be the most heartbreaking thing the show had done at this point. Jenny's death was the first serious death on the show, and certainly among the most memorable. I'd also like to think that she was never entirely forgotten on the show, even up until the very end. In a way, she certainly wasn't.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on October 09, 2014, 11:13:50 PM
1. Fool for Love (5-07)
This is a great exploration of Spike's past, which is something that hadn't really happened on the show yet, some scenes with Angel here or there. But his material is wholly memorable, helping to remind us not only did Spike used to be a serious rouge, but he's always had a soft side. But this is just as much about Buffy, as her curiosity drives the episode. I don't watch this one too often, but I'm never disappointed if I pick it!
9. The Gift just barely missed my list, but I just admit that, personally, I really just loved how Chosen brought everyone together, including older cast members like Faith and Angel (even if his was only a guest appearance). Both episodes had a lot at stake, but I really felt the weight of the situation in Chosen, which is why I slightly prefer it, myself, but don't let that make it seem like I'm knocking The Gift. If my list were a top 20, it's definitely be on there.
7. Eh, I can't say that I agree that the episode's quality drops when it brings in the main plot. If anything, I feel quite the opposite. It actually makes the main plot stuff, which is usually really boring, seem far more interesting. Like, when Buffy and Riley find out about each others' true identities, it feels so captivating, especially because of the lack of dialogue. It also manages to push other character arcs forward in an interesting way, like setting up Willow's relationship with Tara. I'd say that the episode deserves its praise, personally.
4. Interestingly, I found a list of Joss's favorite episodes yesterday, and this was featured on his list. I didn't even think that anyone but me liked this episode so much, but if really do love those comedic episodes with the good old evil twin plot, when it's done well.
3. I was actually surprised that this didn't make your list, considering that I always thought that season 3 was your favorite part of the show. It is an excellent finale, though.
2. Man this episode really got me. I will always stand by saying that this really helped redefine what you could do with television. Yes, I know that regular characters being killed off had happened in TV many times before, but very seldom did it happen in such an unexpected and disturbing way, especially since Jenny was murdered by a former protagonist who turned heel. That was a big deal, and very unexpected. Game of Thrones may have The Red Wedding, but Passion was the first "shock" episode that I ever experienced, and still the best, IMO.
1. I won't lie. Spike is my favorite character, and I love episodes that explore the history of my favorite characters really well, so this was an easy #1 pick for me. It's the same as how Sensui's Fall is my favorite Yu Yu Hakusho episode. ;)
Later on I'll comment on some of your specific choices.
Xander has been arrested. (http://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/buffy-star-nicholas-brendon-reportedly-arrested-in-boise/ar-BB9PQsm)
So it looks like they're going all out with the show's 20th (http://ew.com/tv/2017/03/01/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-20th-anniversary-merchandise/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter). I actually saw a couple of things at BoxLunch last week- the coloring book, and a keychain that has a stake and the B from the show's logo. I got the latter one for my friend's birthday. I'm personally interested in some of the books.
I forgot to talk about my rewatch, but season 3 is about as perfect as it gets. I wouldn't call EVERY episode a masterpiece, and I could do without some of the melodrama, but compared to later Buffy and Angel arcs, as well as other WB/CW shows, it's really not that bad here. Faith and the Mayor were great additions that helped to shake this year up, and the set up to the end of Buffy's high school run is fantastic.
Season 2 is also great, but I think the show was still working out its kinks here. Everything in relation to Angelus is tight, but some of the fillerish episodes falter in comparison. By the end of the season though, the first year already looks downright archaic.
I haven't had much time to do season 4 yet, but I'm hoping to watch some more of it later. The thing with season 4 is that it's kind of misleading. It starts off as good, and on an episode-by-episode basis, it's a good year. But the more we get into the plot, the more the cracks start to show.
And I'm not doing Angel in this rewatch. I might give it one later, but I might just skim season 4 if I do. I don't think I can handle that again.
Season 4 remains as much of a mess as ever. That said, I'd still call it a good season of TV. Adam's still a dull Big Bad, and the Initiative are still a dull group, but the good to bad ratio is still strong, with the only real duds that I can think of being "Beer Bad" and that one where Buffy and Riley's sex shakes the house or whatever. The Sopranos (which had a shockingly similar trajectory to BtVS) had as many or worse bad episodes during its fourth season, for instance, so that's a hit in my book. And the best of this season is among the best of the show, with "Hush", "Restless", and the Faith stuff being among some of the show's finest, for instance. This was still a step down from the previous 2 seasons, but I only regret parts of this viewing.
I'll get to season 5 in a day or two. That's a step up, but it does take a while for the show to do good for Dawn. I know that not everyone warms up to her, but I do feel bad for her at a certain point, and she becomes a more clever and likable character over the last two seasons. But she's not why I'm looking forward to this season.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_z7M2RVoAAbBWT.jpg:large)
I hate Trump too, but using your dead mom to bemoan how awful he is seems pretty odd.
... Maybe he should have left Twitter deactivated.
From what I saw, Whedon apparently gave his entire savings account to the Clinton campaign (http://imgur.com/a/nmNcP), so it kind of makes sense why he's being this dramatic about the political cilmate. But man, this is gonna make The Body awkward to rewatch.
You think that was bad? Look up what he said about young girls that had cancer, simply because they met with Paul Ryan. I can't stand Ryan, but Whedon is an insipid douche.
I still love both Avengers movies, but I really hope he stays away from Marvel because I will NOT put any more money into his pocket.
The phrasing makes it sound like he killed his own mom. Dude has been off his rocker on Twitter lately.
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on May 14, 2017, 09:13:40 PM
Whedon apparently gave his entire savings account to the Clinton campaign (http://imgur.com/a/nmNcP)
:whuh: :whuh: :whuh: :whuh: :whuh:
For a few years, I was bitter that Whedon never took advantage of his Avengers clout to get a new season of Firefly off the ground. But now, I have second thoughts about that. Especially since he would probably kill Jayne off-screen because of Adam Baldwin's politics.
I don't think his politics extend much farther than "Trump bad, Hillary good." He's only ever had nice things to say about Adam Baldwin in recent years so I doubt he'd be stealthily excised from the show. I'd be more worried about him ruining the series with that weird rape episode he planned for the back half of season 1...
Apparently, Baldwin begged Whedon not to vaccinate his kids. (http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/04/12/joss-whedon-on-gamergate-jurassic-world-adam-baldwin-and-speaking-out) And he was the target of one of Baldwin's angry tweets, so I'm not sure what their relationship is like now.
But Whedon's deal with recent politics is still weird, because Angel had a villain who was a clear Hillary analogue. (http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Helen_Brucker)
I know that Baldwin has alienated some of the cast, Morena Baccarin in particular, so I'm not sure if he'll be wanted back.
But I mean, a Firefly without Wash and Book will be weird enough. Getting rid of Jayne as well would feel even more quiet.
Honestly, I'm surprised Whedon hasn't gotten into the Netflix game yet and made a show there. A decade ago, he was looking ahead to internet-only shows with Dr. Horrible.
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on May 15, 2017, 10:41:58 AM
But Whedon's deal with recent politics is still weird, because Angel had a villain who was a clear Hillary analogue. (http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Helen_Brucker)
I think a lot of people who were critical of the Clintons in the past became #WithHer during the last election over some weird commitment to party unity or just because they hated Trump that much. Still, to pivot from disliking them to donating over half-a-million dollars to her campaign is... extreme.
Quote from: Avaitor on May 15, 2017, 01:05:10 PM
I know that Baldwin has alienated some of the cast, Morena Baccarin in particular, so I'm not sure if he'll be wanted back.
But I mean, a Firefly without Wash and Book will be weird enough. Getting rid of Jayne as well would feel even more quiet.
As much fun as it can be, social media has done a lot to destroy friendships and the general public's opinions on many of their heroes. Between Whedon's and Baldwin's bizarre tweets, James Woods trying to sue a dead guy for insulting him, and Dan Harmon bullying a teenager over the mildest of criticism, shit can be real poisonous to both the creative process and people's appreciation of it.
And a Firefly without Wash would be so much less fun, never mind Book and Jayne (though they would, of course, be missed as well).
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on May 15, 2017, 07:43:53 PM
Honestly, I'm surprised Whedon hasn't gotten into the Netflix game yet and made a show there. A decade ago, he was looking ahead to internet-only shows with Dr. Horrible.
It's been a surprisingly long time since he helmed a TV series, hasn't it? (AOS doesn't count.)
Quote from: Foggle on May 15, 2017, 09:41:35 PM
It's been a surprisingly long time since he helmed a TV series, hasn't it? (AOS doesn't count.)
It's weird. He's no longer "Struggling showrunner of cult TV shows" Whedon, but "Director/writer of international box office hits" Whedon. He could pitch whatever he wanted, and Netflix would probably accept it no questions asked. And yet, it's like he completely abandoned that part of career to go and make movies like Batgirl. Which I guess makes sense from a profit standpoint, and being able to indulge himself as a comic fan, but it's still a shame.
I will say that if every other show can get a revival, I don't see why Firefly can't. As much as I like the Avengers movies, Whedon works better as a showrunner than film director, and I doubt that he would lose the plot as badly as Chris Carter did for X-Files.
But I'm afraid that he'll get roped into a BtVS revival instead. And while I do ultimately prefer Buffy, I don't want to see James Marsden fail to still pull off Spike, and I really don't want to see Xander and Dawn hook up or the Buffybot abortion fuck-up.
It won't be a Buffy revival: it will be a reboot. Because that's easier.
And it will be really, really bad.
It couldn't possibly be this bad. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wllc5gSc-N8)
I like Rachel Bloom, and that is the worst thing ever.
I like most of what I've seen from Bill Nye's new show, and that is the worst thing ever.
Bill Nye's new show is disappointing. It's not really educational because I already know the stuff he talks about like climate change, and it's not entertaining because all of the guests he brings are annoying and offer no new insights on the subject matter of each episode. Most of the panels are just people agreeing with Bill Nye's views no questions asked instead of challenging them, which makes for boring television. And even if I agree with most of what he says, he presents it in such a condescending way that I think some viewers would hate science after watching his show. I know people find Neil Tyson annoying, but he did a better job making science entertaining with the Cosmos reboot.
And that studio audience. Some of the worst laughter I've heard in recent years.
I'm sure taking the best moments out of context helps me not hate the new Bill Nye show. If I watched the whole thing I assume I'd hate it, from what I've heard.
Neil Tyson is only annoying on Twitter. In person and on TV he's great.
Which out of context clips did you watch?
Quote from: Foggle on May 15, 2017, 09:41:35 PM
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on May 15, 2017, 10:41:58 AM
But Whedon's deal with recent politics is still weird, because Angel had a villain who was a clear Hillary analogue. (http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Helen_Brucker)
I think a lot of people who were critical of the Clintons in the past became #WithHer during the last election over some weird commitment to party unity or just because they hated Trump that much. Still, to pivot from disliking them to donating over half-a-million dollars to her campaign is... extreme.
Quote from: Avaitor on May 15, 2017, 01:05:10 PM
I know that Baldwin has alienated some of the cast, Morena Baccarin in particular, so I'm not sure if he'll be wanted back.
But I mean, a Firefly without Wash and Book will be weird enough. Getting rid of Jayne as well would feel even more quiet.
As much fun as it can be, social media has done a lot to destroy friendships and the general public's opinions on many of their heroes. Between Whedon's and Baldwin's bizarre tweets, James Woods trying to sue a dead guy for insulting him, and Dan Harmon bullying a teenager over the mildest of criticism, shit can be real poisonous to both the creative process and people's appreciation of it.
And a Firefly without Wash would be so much less fun, never mind Book and Jayne (though they would, of course, be missed as well).
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on May 15, 2017, 07:43:53 PM
Honestly, I'm surprised Whedon hasn't gotten into the Netflix game yet and made a show there. A decade ago, he was looking ahead to internet-only shows with Dr. Horrible.
It's been a surprisingly long time since he helmed a TV series, hasn't it? (AOS doesn't count.)
I don't want this to get more off-topic than it already is, but I don't think its social media that's the cause. Its because of how much more toxic politics have gotten. Really, its the mass media's fault. CNN, Fox News, etc., all the mainstream networks turned people against each other which wasn't helped by the climate of hysteria in the previous decade.
If anything, I wish social media existed seven years sooner.
My new rankings for the series, after my most recent rewatch:
3
7
5
2
6
4
1
The first season just doesn't have that much to offer anymore. I can see it being impressive at the time, as there's honest-to-god character development and even then, the show handled its mythology better than The X-Files ever could. But the high school stories are all pretty dumb. The last couple of episodes do show promise for something bigger, which it will soon deliver on.
Season 2 is still a little rough around the edges early on. You could tell that the writers were never as comfortable with relatable teenage stuff, and there's some whack ideas going on. But Spike and Dru really do shake things up, just as the Angelus arc in the back end is some of the best that the show has to offer. If we got more stuff like this, I'd rank the season higher. But even some of the later one-offs work better than before, with "Go Fish" being a surprise favorite to put on sometimes.
Season 3 is as close to perfect as a show can get, IMO. The high school writing improves a good bit, but it's the core story that really sets things going, with Faith being a great change to the gang's dynamic, and the Mayor a strong contender for their best antagonist. Even Wesley bugged me a little less this time than before. Alexis Denisof does a good job of playing a stick in the mud.
I've mentioned before that I think season 4 is solid on an episode-by-episode basis, and on the whole I'd call it a good season of TV. But's a definite step down from the past 2 seasons, with how little of the storyline works. Riley's boring, The Initiative is boring, and Adam is boring, all to the point that I can't really say anything more on either of them. The best episodes of the season tend to have little to do with the plot and are looser, which isn't a great thing. But still, we did get "Hush" and "Restless" from this year, and I do like the use of Spike on the team, so I can't call the season useless.
I was surprised that I gelled so much with season 5 this time around, but I think my only major fault with it is that Dawn starts off as pretty annoying. And she does, but I do start to feel sorry for her as we get deeper into the mystery of The Key. But I do get more excited by the further integrating and development of Anya and Tara into the Scoobies, who were just kind of there last season. They're a lot more useful and really turn into great characters in no time, while Spike makes changes that I feel are of mixed benefits to the series. The thing that really pushes this season up for me though, is that Glory is a terrific Big Bad, and I like the way they mix her "human" side in along with her godlike powers. It all melds down into arguably the most human and one of the most impactful seasons, with a perfect finish.
Season 6 is a controversial season, but I do like the Trio. I feel that the show did a good job of reminding the audience that they're goofy, but still worth taking at least somewhat seriously, based on their technological knowhow. Warren, in particular, becomes an interesting embodiment of male entitlement as the season goes on. And I really like that the season focuses on Buffy's depression, and really liked the twist arc in the last few episodes, and wish it could have lasted longer. It's not perfect, though.
Willow's witchcraft arc could have been handled differently, since using it as a drug metaphor is too on the nose. The show has been building towards her reliance of the dark arts for a while now, but it seemed to go in a direction that came off as forced and kind of dumb. And I'm still conflicted on Buffy and Spike- they have good moments, and I think it makes sense in its own twisted way for Spike to be the one to understand Buffy's suffering, but the rape scene was uncalled for, and almost ruined the character for no good reason. I am a fan of what happens to him next though, but it does drop my thoughts for that episode, and the season as a whole, a bit.
But what I really wasn't expecting was to rank season 7 as high as I did. But wow, I really liked the story arc of the First, as well as Spike's redemption, the return of Faith, everyone's calling out on Buffy's self-righteousness, and even the Potentials. Give or take Kennedy. I think the show would have still been great if it ended with the fifth season, but the last two years only helped to add to its legacy in my mind, and we got a perfect series finale out of it.
I really still like this show, and it might still be my favorite anything ever, warts and all. I may do a rewatch for Angel next, but I don't think that I can handle season 4 again.
Season three is a classic, so I certainly can't argue much with that.
I'm both surprised and glad to see you rank season seven so high. While I'm not sure if I would put it that far up myself, I always found it to be rather underrated by most of the fan-base. I think that in general, a lot of people were burned out from the sixth season and came into the final season with a more cynical attitude, but going into it from a fresher perspective it's actually a really tightly-written season with arguably the third best villain in the entire series (right behind Angelus and The Mayor as the top two) and does an excellent job of wrapping up the arcs of the core characters. It's definitely a lot better than whay most fans tend to give it credit for.
Reboot in the works. (https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-news/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-tv-reboot-in-the-works-702313)
I wonder if this is going to go the same way the movie reboot they tried a few years ago went.
It'd be tough to see anyone but Sarah as Buffy, but I also don't really want another season, especially since there's no way they James Marsters could still pull off Spike (David Boreanaz could still maybe pass as Angel, though), and there's certain things from the comics that I don't want to see brought in. So this might be for the best? If it happens.
Charisma Carpenter details some of the things we've known a little about for ages (https://tvline.com/2021/02/10/charisma-carpenter-joss-whedon-toxic-hostile-abuse-allegations/).
It seems like every week, there's more truth bombs dropped about Whedon, and while his work is still formative to me, it is getting harder and harder to justify him. None of this is okay.
Yeah, I was really hoping the rumors between Joss and Charisma were just rumors, but alas. For a while now, I've been more comfortable seeing Espenson, Noxon, Petrie, DeKnight, Goddard, and all the other writers for Buffy's strengths than Joss.
Yeah, I think that's why I'm able to still enjoy Buffy and Angel, in that they're more than just Whedon. As opposed to Harry Potter, which JK Rowling has always had too much autonomy over.
That said, I think Firefly is a little harder to go back to.
Whedon always seemed like a douchebag. I'm surprised the Charisma rumors weren't confirmed right after he was exposed as a serial adulterer by his ex. As if that news weren't enough, Michelle Trachtenburg and Sarah Michelle Geller seemed to imply on IG that Whedon might have done even worse things than that.
I hope I'm wrong because if not, we might be about to have another Harvey Weinstein blowup on our hands. :whuh:
I just remembered Xander and Dawn hook up in the sequel comics, and seeing as Xander was Joss writing himself... eugh.
Quote from: Avaitor on September 06, 2017, 03:52:19 PMMy new rankings for the series, after my most recent rewatch:
3
7
5
2
6
4
1
So with my recent rewatch for my blog done, I do think my ratings are a little bit different now.
3
5=6
2
4
7
1
So yeah, my esteem towards the seventh season did definitely drop, but I still don't agree with the argument that it's worse than the first season. I still think that Spike's redemption does work as well as it can here, and I still do like that the show took a more firm stance on Buffy not always being right by the end, but the Potentials never really feel fully formed (except for Kennedy, which isn't really a compliment on her end) and a lot of the last act of the season spends too much time on the Scoobies biding down the clock before going to action. Parts of this season feels a little more dry than it should, and even the last form-breaking episode ("Storyteller") feels a little inappropriate.
Still, season 7 is stronger than the first, which takes its time to find its voice. I can see how the pilot would have appealed back in 1997 (aside from the Power Rangers-esq fight choerography), and the last two episodes are genuinely quite good, but a lot of it is rough around the edges.
The other big change this time is how well season 6 resonated. I think the darkness works, and seeing everyone struggle to make the right decisions, from Xander walking out on Anya to Giles abandoning Buffy, feels as human as the show ever did. Messy and in some points unforgivable, but that's a part of life. I do understand why this year is a turn-off for fans of the show, and I can't even totally argue against it, but more works for me than I expected.
I'm also surprised at how critical the show is of the Trio, particularly Warren, considering what we know about Whedon now. While there are occasional attempts to reach across their aisle, to make the audience feel bad for how ostracized they are, it's clear that they're bad people who have done bad things. At least Warren and Andrew, Jonathan does seem to genuinely feel remorse and wanted out, and even he doesn't get off easy.
I'd probably rank season 5 a tad higher if Dawn didn't take a while to become if not likable, at least empathetic, and if Riley didn't always blow. And if season 2 didn't still hold onto those season 1 growing pains for as long as it did, it would rank higher. The Angelus material is arguably the show at its best, but I'll probably always rank the Mayor as my favorite villain.
Yeah, whenever I turn on the TV and see reruns of Buffy on Comet, whenever they get to Season 7, I keep noticing more of the flaws. Overstuffed, yet underexplored. The show is only able to grasp the First a few times before they forget how to handle them again. To say nothing of how the production values seem to decrease and characters end up talking to each other in rooms as narrow as closets.
Was wondering when the Buffy guys were gonna make their own "take the IP back from bad creator" thing, where Cordelia's the Slayer and Amber Benson and her friends are writing. (https://ew.com/podcasts/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-stars-returning-audible-series/)
I actually had an idea for a reboot that takes place in an alternate universe where Cordelia survives and becomes a Watcher to the next Slayer. This doesn't sound any crazier, but I'm not really interested, either.
I don't know, the novelty of half a dozen of the cast getting back together to do Buffy audios will at least convince me to listen to a couple episodes. Granted, I never really bothered to read any of Amber Benson's books or Ghosts of Albion, so I have no idea what the writing will entail besides "Oh hey, Tara's writing this".
And it can't be any less confounding than the Season 8-12 comics.
Another thing, ironic Emma Caulfield's back for this when I remember she asked for Anya to be killed off, so she wouldn't have to do any spinoffs.
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 14, 2023, 07:47:25 PMAnother thing, ironic Emma Caulfield's back for this when I remember she asked for Anya to be killed off, so she wouldn't have to do any spinoffs.
She did, but she also didn't like how Anya died (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ-AdiuY5hM).
I was rewatching a bit of Angel, and I remembered in that interview she did on Rosenbaum's podcast, Charisma said David Greenwalt and Tim Minear were the two writers who gave a shit about Cordelia and once they weren't there for season 4, she felt she had nobody on the production side willing to be there for her and her character. And I'm surprised neither of them are involved in the new audio drama. Wouldn't even count as scabbing since it's not TV or film either.
And I think I found out why Willow, Wesley, Fred, and Gunn aren't in it. (https://www.reddit.com/r/buffy/comments/16auhcm/j_august_richards_got_married_and_a_few/)
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 18, 2023, 05:36:25 PMAnd I think I found out why Willow, Wesley, Fred, and Gunn aren't in it. (https://www.reddit.com/r/buffy/comments/16auhcm/j_august_richards_got_married_and_a_few/)
And in a surprising contrast, Boreanaz apparently said he'd be open to coming back and playing Angel in these. (https://www.reddit.com/r/buffy/comments/16rwndh/audible_series/) Something I really didn't expect, since whenever I read an interview from him, he's always been anti-reprisals once a series is done. Not just with Angel, but with any of his old work like Bones. I remember he gave a pretty firm "no" when asked the same question in that EW reunion a few years ago, so this is an interesting development.
Now to wait and see if SMG will have a change of heart too.
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 18, 2023, 05:36:25 PMAnd I think I found out why Willow, Wesley, Fred, and Gunn aren't in it. (https://www.reddit.com/r/buffy/comments/16auhcm/j_august_richards_got_married_and_a_few/)
This explains a lot. And damn, Whedon is looking old.
Quote from: Avaitor on September 26, 2023, 03:15:34 PMQuote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 18, 2023, 05:36:25 PMAnd I think I found out why Willow, Wesley, Fred, and Gunn aren't in it. (https://www.reddit.com/r/buffy/comments/16auhcm/j_august_richards_got_married_and_a_few/)
This explains a lot. And damn, Whedon is looking old.
It's almost like a jumpscare. I was looking through the pictures thinking "Hey, it's sweet that J August Richards' old co-stars are here for his wedding, but who's that guy in the last o--oh, its
you." Last I heard, I thought he was hiding in Canada.
So I finished the Slayers audios, though apparently Benson and the bunch are hopeful for a second season featuring Oz, Glory,
Spoiler
, Willow, and Vampire Giles according to the cliffhanger.
Short but positive things first, I had fun and I liked it. I don't want to sound like one of those lemmings who gets easily impressed when a franchise throws old things at me, but hey, new Buffyverse episodes for the first time in 19 years. And they recaptured the tone and atmosphere while playing around with the new limitations they have.
Now for the main hook of the series, where a Cordelia who's alive and is a Slayer appears to team up with Spike, I have mixed thoughts. Because the characters who would react the most to seeing a version of Cordelia like that, Angel and his cast or even Xander, aren't available, so all you really have is Spike (who only really knew her for 1 or 2 episodes at most) and Giles (who only knew her high school self and not the person she became on Angel). Same with bringing in variants of Tara and Anya but the characters who'd have the biggest emotional reaction that, Willow and Xander, aren't there. The audios know how to write around Buffy's absence but not the absence of those other two, which I found strange. I'm well aware that Xander's reception has plunged downwards in recent years and Nicholas Brendon is too much of a wreck these days to be asked back, but with the way Anya and Cordelia's character arcs move in this story, I kinda wish a character they personally knew was there to engage with those changes. Because while Spike and the new character Indira make for decent audience surrogates, there just isn't that established connection.
Ironically, I think Clem gets a ton of screentime (or listening time) here, more than I think he ever got in the actual show. Can't tell if that's just because the writers had to make do or they just really liked Clem and his actor.
And as for actors, the voice direction is rough. It takes a while for some of the cast to get back into their roles, which makes sense for a few of them since it's been 20 years, Anthony Stewart Head sounds very rough here when he sounded a lot more energetic when I heard him in Ted Lasso, but then it takes a while for others to get back to their roles. I almost couldn't recognize that was Emma Caulfield playing Anya until a couple minutes in, and James Marsters is using a different accent here compared to the one he used in the show. While you have Juliet Landau who just slips back into playing Drusilla again like it's natural for her.
Spoiler
Also, Benson and Caulfield play multiple roles in the story, so I guess if you hated Season 6 and 7 because Tara and Anya died, have a consolation prize?
And even though I know what her actress looks like, I was still confused by how much Indira just sounded like Candi Milo.
I still recall my stance when the comics ended that Buffy was very much an actor's show, because when reading the comics and seeing the series is like without actor input, you get very questionable decisions like Angel and Buffy having sex in the sky and conceiving a sentient universe, Spike becoming the captain of an alien bug ship, Xander and Dawn becoming a couple even though he babysat her in Season 5, Harmony suddenly gaining 50 IQ points and becoming queen of the vampires, or Buffy and Faith enrolling in the police academy. I remember a YouTuber who reviews Buffy more generously comparing the comics to sheet music without a musician to play them. And with Slayers, I think you get the opposite problem because instead of the conductor pretending he's the whole orchestra, you have the orchestra playing without a conductor. So a lot less messy, but also noticeably less ambitious.
Is Trachtenberg uninterested or unavailable? Because I think the idea of getting to hear how Dawn interacted with Cordelia and see what they'd be like as adults is at least somewhat interesting.
I'm not sure if I'll get around to this, but it sounds nice that this doesn't appear to be a total trainwreck, although I don't know how to bring back the Buffyverse.
Yeah, I always thought it was a shame that the show never brought back Cordelia in Season 6 for an episode and let her and the Buffy cast catch up and talk about how different life's been for each other in the last 3 years, since 6 was the mopey season and Cordelia was emotionally at her most refined in Season 3 of Angel, so the contrast there would've been great.
And I think the big problem with trying to make a Buffy sequel is how does one make sure they're making Buffy 2.0 and not just reheated versions of what we already have, because if someone did have an idea on how to take what worked from the series and improve upon it, they would've ran off and made a ripoff that viewers would've watched over Teen Wolf/Wolf Pack/Shadowhunters/Chilling Adventures/The Originals/every other Buffy knockoff I can't bother to name. Thinking up a premise for a followup is easy, but figuring out what themes or allegories it can play with in contrast to the old show is the tricky part. In order to do a revival justice, you have to make the kind of show that can make episodes that stand out as much as The Body or Hush or Passion or Restless, instead of playing a cover version of the greatest hits like all those shows above I mentioned. So many shows in the last 2 decades have tried so hard to be the next Buffy, right down to ripping off whole character arcs and plots, and all but a precious few fail to understand why those parts worked.
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on October 21, 2023, 04:23:02 AMYeah, I always thought it was a shame that the show never brought back Cordelia in Season 6 for an episode and let her and the Buffy cast catch up and talk about how different life's been for each other in the last 3 years, since 6 was the mopey season and Cordelia was emotionally at her most refined in Season 3 of Angel, so the contrast there would've been great.
I think I talked about this in my blog, but I really think she should have been a part of Xander and Anya's wedding. If anyone could have given the Scoobies the pep talk/reason you suck speech they deserved, it's her.
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on October 21, 2023, 04:23:02 AMAnd I think the big problem with trying to make a Buffy sequel is how does one make sure they're making Buffy 2.0 and not just reheated versions of what we already have, because if someone did have an idea on how to take what worked from the series and improve upon it, they would've ran off and made a ripoff that viewers would've watched over Teen Wolf/Wolf Pack/Shadowhunters/Chilling Adventures/The Originals/every other Buffy knockoff I can't bother to name. Thinking up a premise for a followup is easy, but figuring out what themes or allegories it can play with in contrast to the old show is the tricky part. In order to do a revival justice, you have to make the kind of show that can make episodes that stand out as much as The Body or Hush or Passion or Restless, instead of playing a cover version of the greatest hits like all those shows above I mentioned. So many shows in the last 2 decades have tried so hard to be the next Buffy, right down to ripping off whole character arcs and plots, and all but a precious few fail to understand why those parts worked.
And the other problem is that with today's climate, it would be damn-near impossible for today's equivalent of Buffy to have a 22-episode season that allows for the more experimental episodes to happen. The CW was the last place that could have handled this kind of show within the network TV season order and they're all but phasing out of that kind of programming.
If the show was made today, there probably wouldn't be a "Doppelgangland" or "Once More, With Feeling" or probably even "The Body", because there wouldn't be room to mess with the status quo, and even if there was, enough of the audience would likely reject it for being filler. Look at what happened to the Chicago episode of Stranger Things.
I don't know. The latest season of Strange New Worlds did a musical episode and a crossover with the cartoons, and that show only has 10-episode seasons. And quite a lot of British shows prove you can do experimental one-off episodes in tiny season orders. RTD-era Doctor Who did a pretty good job ripping off the Buffy formula, and they only had 13 episodes and a Christmas special every series. What I'd really hope a revival would avoid is only making a new season every few years, since the franchise is all about coming-of-age, and having constant gap years would interfere with that. Like how all of the Stranger Things kids have long since grown out of their roles in only 4 seasons.
Other issue is what's the hook? Because as I mentioned, supernatural teen dramas are far more in abundance now than they were back in the show's heyday. All Buffy had to compete with back then were Roswell and Charmed.