We all know that with movies, books, video games, and so on, sequels and continuations are a very common thing. However, sometimes people don't like to accept these later sequels as canon to a certain franchise (for example, one might not consider Terminator 3 and Salvation as canon), for one reason for another. For me, I frequently consider the original intent of a story as very important, and if a later sequel disregards that, then it simply can't be canon.
For this thread, I'm curious what you guys' opinions are with canon in certain franchises. In many cases, what's canon really doesn't matter a whole lot. Sometimes it's just a little thing, where you just prefer to accept certain parts of the fiction as canon, and others as non-canon. First, I will give my opinions, and why I think so.
Terminator
Every movie after Terminator and Terminator 2 is non-canon. And this isn't entirely about quality, either. It's about, as I said above, intent. A very important theme of 2 was preventing Judgement Day and changing the future. The characters did exactly that by erasing every little thing that had anything to do with Judgement Day. However, Terminator 3 missed this theme by saying "Judgement Day is inevitable". That, in my book, disqualifies it and Salvation as canon.
DTV Disney Sequels
Most, if not all, DTV Disney sequels are non-canon. For one thing, Disney themselves doesn't seem to care about them or acknowledge them. So why should we? Not to mention, they frequently clash with story elements from their predecessors (Scar having an entire lion tribe in The Lion King 2, everything that happens in Beauty and the Beast: The Enchanted Christmas, etc.). To me, the only canon Disney sequels are the theatrical ones. And I'm pretty sure that means only The Rescuers Down Under.
Halloween
Michael Myers is the boogeyman (he even literally disappears at the end of the movie). And you can't kill the boogeyman. In Halloween II, they humanize and then kill him. So how can it or any other sequel be canon? As far as I'm concerned, at the conclusion of the Halloween arc, Michael Myers is shot down, then disappears, and the story is essentially left on a cliffhanger. He's still out there, somewhere, and that's it. He's not Laurie's brother, he doesn't get burned to death in the hospital, he doesn't come back several times, and he certainly isn't related to a druid curse.
Rosemary's Baby
The sequels to this story are such an unbelievable atrocity, that fans unironically believe the author literally lost their mind.
Friday the 13th
Just the first four films are canon to me. Together they cover an entire story arc that concludes with Jason's indisputable death. They are stylistically all very similar, and feel very connected compared to later sequels. The fifth movie is so bad that even the film makers themselves cut it out of the canon and picked up from 4's ending when them made 6. As for the rest of the movies, they claim that Jason was always a supernatural being who died at the bottom of the lake and then was revived, but we know from 2 that he survived the drowning. So 6 and onward can't be canon in my mind, either (even though I liked 6, so I just consider that to be like a nice fanfiction movie). Later sequels are especially non-canon as they completely start to ignore any semblance of continuity.
A Nightmare on Elm Street
Well, New Nightmare makes it clear that the entire series of Nightmare on Elm Street movies are just films within another universe. So Wes Craven himself perfectly spelled out how the canon goes, and I really can't complain about it, as even the bad movies are just that, movies.
If I think of more, I'll comment on them. For now, what do you guys think?
Alien franchise:
Everything after Aliens is non-canon. As for Prometheus, I could buy it being canon, but the one major problem I have with that is how the technology in that movie clearly looks far more sophisticated than anything in the first 2 Alien films. Granted that, Prometheus (the ship and it's crew), is funded by a very wealthy businessman, whereas the crew in Alien are just simple contract workers, and in Aliens it's just low-level military personnel. That said, seeing as how the Alien films supposedly take place over a hundred years after Prometheus, it's still tough to swallow the more dated looking technology.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on June 24, 2014, 09:49:20 PMFor me, I frequently consider the original intent of a story as very important, and if a later sequel disregards that, then it simply can't be canon.
I think that's the way I judge it. I always consider the intent of the original piece as the standard to judge the series and the rules it puts in play. That's why I can't accept Alien 3 as canon, but can accept Matrix Reloaded despite not really liking it.
At a certain point it just feels like the studios are making their own fanfiction (Terminator 3) and we're supposed to just accept it.
And then, there's Star Wars. Oy vey.
SpongeBob SquarePants
SpongeBob's continuity really doesn't matter. We all know that. But still, in my mind, I just like to think of this as the canon.
Season 1 ---> Season 2 ---> Season 3 ---> The Movie
There's just something about it I like (probably because season 4 onward is so much weaker). This continuity is actually what Hillenburg intended. He made the first three seasons, then intended for the entire series to end with the movie. Plus, the movie is just a nice ending for the series, isn't it? I also can't get it out of my mind that the final episodes of season 3, SpongeBob Meets the Strangler and Pranks a lot, take place not very long before the movie's storyline begins. Season 4 onward can't happen after the movie because it has SpongeBob as a regular fry cook again and the Krusty Krab 2 is nowhere to be found. Some say the movie takes place after every future episode. That's better, but I still don't like it a lot because those episodes are not only weaker, but they feel so different from the earlier seasons. The movie is very similar to the first three seasons in terms of tone, so I find it jarring to suggest it happens after all those weird later episodes. I love seasons 1-3 and they are special to me, so I prefer they are the only episodes that are canon.
What order the episodes happen in really doesn't matter, so I just assume they happen in the order they were made. The only two expections I can think of are that the Krusty Krab Training Video happening near the beginning of the continuity (because that's when SpongeBob gets his fry cook training), and Band Geeks happening near the end of the continuity (as it's just a nice conclusion for Squidward).
Yes, I just spent two paragraphs talking about SpongeBob's canon.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on June 24, 2014, 10:06:31 PM
SpongeBob SquarePants
SpongeBob's continuity really doesn't matter. We all know that. But still, in my mind, I just like to think of this as the canon.
Season 1 ---> Season 2 ---> Season 3 ---> The Movie
There's just something about it I like (probably because season 4 onward is so much weaker). This continuity is actually what Hillenburg intended. He made the first three seasons, then intended for the entire series to end with the movie. Plus, the movie is just a nice ending for the series, isn't it? I also can't get it out of my mind that the final episodes of season 3, SpongeBob Meets the Strangler and Pranks a lot, take place not very long before the movie's storyline begins. Season 4 onward can't happen after the movie because it has SpongeBob as a regular fry cook again and the Krusty Krab 2 is nowhere to be found. Some say the movie takes place after every future episode. That's better, but I still don't like it a lot because those episodes are not only weaker, but they feel so different from the earlier seasons. The movie is very similar to the first three seasons in terms of tone, so I find it jarring to suggest it happens after all those weird later episodes. I love seasons 1-3 and they are special to me, so I prefer they are the only episodes that are canon.
What order the episodes happen in really doesn't matter, so I just assume they happen in the order they were made. The only two expections I can think of are that the Krusty Krab Training Video happening near the beginning of the continuity (because that's when SpongeBob gets his fry cook training), and Band Geeks happening near the end of the continuity (as it's just a nice conclusion for Squidward).
Yes, I just spent two paragraphs talking about SpongeBob's canon.
I don't even think it really matters. Nothing post-season 3 has any real effect on the movie. You can stop watching after season 3 and it's not like you'll be missing any story.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on June 24, 2014, 09:57:24 PM
Quote from: talonmalon333 on June 24, 2014, 09:49:20 PMFor me, I frequently consider the original intent of a story as very important, and if a later sequel disregards that, then it simply can't be canon.
I think that's the way I judge it. I always consider the intent of the original piece as the standard to judge the series and the rules it puts in play. That's why I can't accept Alien 3 as canon, but can accept Matrix Reloaded despite not really liking it.
At a certain point it just feels like the studios are making their own fanfiction (Terminator 3) and we're supposed to just accept it.
That's why I won't accept it with things like Terminator 3. I see them just as you describe them, as fanfiction.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on June 24, 2014, 09:57:24 PMAnd then, there's Star Wars. Oy vey.
At least those movies are just bad. They don't destroy that many, if any, themes from the original movies (at least, not that I can think of).
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on June 24, 2014, 10:13:02 PMI don't even think it really matters. Nothing post-season 3 has any real effect on the movie. You can stop watching after season 3 and it's not like you'll be missing any story.
I know. I mentioned in that post that it doesn't really matter. I just kind of like to accept only the Hillenburg era as canon. Just one of those things I can't explain, but I have always seemed to like.
Also, post-season 3 episodes contradict the movie in that they exclude the Krusty Krab 2 and make SpongeBob a fry cook again. And Plankton doesn't have the formula.
I think they said that the movie is the technical series finale of Spongebob and every episode takes place before it, so it doesn't make much of a difference. Plus, I think the new movie is a sequel to the first movie, so that might push that idea further.
Also, with Star Wars, I didn't just mean the movies. I mean EVERYTHING. It's not like we can just pretend Timothy Zahn's material is canon when Disney went out of their way to make his works less important than the prequels by keeping those canon and not all the stuff he did.
I thought the new movies fucked up a lot, according to the fans.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on June 24, 2014, 11:04:38 PM
I think they said that the movie is the technical series finale of Spongebob and every episode takes place before it, so it doesn't make much of a difference. Plus, I think the new movie is a sequel to the first movie, so that might push that idea further.
But like I said, the later seasons feel so different in terms of style. So to me, it feels really jarring putting them before the movie. Also, I have a feeling the next movie will have nothing to do with the first movie, if only to make it it's own self-contained SpongeBob story. The fact that they are using CGI makes it seem even more disconnected. It probably won't affect anything in terms of story.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on June 24, 2014, 11:04:38 PMAlso, with Star Wars, I didn't just mean the movies. I mean EVERYTHING. It's not like we can just pretend Timothy Zahn's material is canon when Disney went out of their way to make his works less important than the prequels by keeping those canon and not all the stuff he did.
What is his material?
Quote from: gunswordfist on June 24, 2014, 11:05:26 PM
I thought the new movies fucked up a lot, according to the fans.
What movie?
Star Wars Episode I-III
Quote from: gunswordfist on June 24, 2014, 11:11:37 PM
Star Wars Episode I-III
I thought most people say they are just bad movies. I mean, they just cover a story arc that we knew existed since the original movies. In fact, the entire final battle of Episode III was apparently thought up by Lucas back when they first made Empire Strikes Back.
Again, IDK myself, I just hear people say that Lucas has shitted all over the continuity with those 3 movies.
Also, apparently the Clones Wars shows make it worth stomaching the prequels as canon.
Amen. I still can't compute bringing Darth Maul part...as an android.
Didn't he, like, die? As in, was sliced in half and then knocked into a dark hole to never be seen again?
Quote from: talonmalon333 on June 24, 2014, 11:09:22 PM
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on June 24, 2014, 11:04:38 PM
I think they said that the movie is the technical series finale of Spongebob and every episode takes place before it, so it doesn't make much of a difference. Plus, I think the new movie is a sequel to the first movie, so that might push that idea further.
But like I said, the later seasons feel so different in terms of style. So to me, it feels really jarring putting them before the movie. Also, I have a feeling the next movie will have nothing to do with the first movie, if only to make it it's own self-contained SpongeBob story. The fact that they are using CGI makes it seem even more disconnected. It probably won't affect anything in terms of story.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on June 24, 2014, 11:04:38 PMAlso, with Star Wars, I didn't just mean the movies. I mean EVERYTHING. It's not like we can just pretend Timothy Zahn's material is canon when Disney went out of their way to make his works less important than the prequels by keeping those canon and not all the stuff he did.
What is his material?
The big one is the Thrawn trilogy. But he's also responsible for a lot of tweaks to the universe with his books that Lucas ended up taking for granted and ignoring.
Most fans like his stuff, which is why I guess they decided to take it out of canon. Star Wars has had a history of not liking its fans.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on June 24, 2014, 11:24:44 PM
Didn't he, like, die? As in, was sliced in half and then knocked into a dark hole to never be seen again?
That's the point.
So what Star Wars EU stuff is considered good besides KOTOR and the Thrawn trilogy?
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on June 24, 2014, 11:44:36 PM
So what Star Wars EU stuff is considered good besides KOTOR and the Thrawn trilogy?
My point is that they didn't really sift through any of it and just sort of went with the prequels and the old trilogy. It would have been nice for them to at least try.
To be honest, I'm not the most familiar with Star Wars in general, but I do know that there was much better stuff than the prequel trilogy even if I haven't read or seen any of it in a dog's age.
I think that Lucas just doesn't care about whatever other people have written. To him, his movies are the canon. It also makes sense that he would want to leave things open for the sequel trilogy, to avoid potentially clashing with material others have written.
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on June 24, 2014, 11:44:36 PM
So what Star Wars EU stuff is considered good besides KOTOR and the Thrawn trilogy?
Republic Commando (videogame, not the book series), Most of the Boba Fett solo comics, The Clone Wars cartoon and comics released in '02-'05, Shadows of the Empire, Rogue Squadron, the Jedi Knight games, That one-shot comic where Darth Vader fights Darth Maul.
I still need to get Republic Commando. That demo rocked.
While the story wasn't anything spectacular, Jedi Starfighter was also an awesome game, while we're on the subject.
Sequels to Don Bluth Movies
It's the same deal as the Disney DTV sequels. They're just nonsense, especially all those Land Before Time sequels. Though I don't really know anything about the An American Tail sequels, so I can't speak for them.
The American Tail sequels had effort put into them, but they're chronologically confusing despite being aimed at small kids. People do debate on which is the better of the first two, I've noticed.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on June 30, 2014, 03:06:49 PM
The American Tail sequels had effort put into them, but they're chronologically confusing despite being aimed at small kids. People do debate on which is the better of the first two, I've noticed.
First two sequels, you mean?
Quote from: talonmalon333 on June 30, 2014, 03:11:58 PM
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on June 30, 2014, 03:06:49 PM
The American Tail sequels had effort put into them, but they're chronologically confusing despite being aimed at small kids. People do debate on which is the better of the first two, I've noticed.
First two sequels, you mean?
Movies. I was also thinking of that TV show.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on June 30, 2014, 04:03:38 PM
Quote from: talonmalon333 on June 30, 2014, 03:11:58 PM
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on June 30, 2014, 03:06:49 PM
The American Tail sequels had effort put into them, but they're chronologically confusing despite being aimed at small kids. People do debate on which is the better of the first two, I've noticed.
First two sequels, you mean?
Movies. I was also thinking of that TV show.
So the first An American Tail isn't the unanimous favorite?
I remember liking Fievel Goes West about as much, if not more, than An American Tale.
Did Don Bluth have anything to do with it?
He was going to direct it, but he had a falling out with Spielberg so he didn't do it. Compared to other sequels where he wasn't involved, it was actually pretty good.
Because of recent events...
Alien
3 and Resurrection are non-canon, and not just because they are bad, but also because they go against the first two movies (that egg getting planted on the ship makes no sense considering the queen died).
And here's another one that I forgot to mention before.
Yu Yu Hakusho
The anime is the canon version to me. I consider the manga to be a rough draft (and, in the case of the fourth arc, a very sloppy rough draft). Why wouldn't I consider the fleshed out and complete version of the Three Kings story line to be canon? The anime is also the version that completes the story of Yusuke's development, and that's an important theme in the story. If the manga disregards that, then it fits right into my ideas on intent.
Agents of SHIELD is non-canon to the MCU. Unless they directly reference it I. The films in a way that's impossible to ignore (which to my knowledge they haven't done yet), I can go on pretending that it doesn't exist.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on July 25, 2014, 12:30:03 PMYu Yu Hakusho
The anime is the canon version to me. I consider the manga to be a rough draft (and, in the case of the fourth arc, a very sloppy rough draft). Why wouldn't I consider the fleshed out and complete version of the Three Kings story line to be canon? The anime is also the version that completes the story of Yusuke's development, and that's an important theme in the story. If the manga disregards that, then it fits right into my ideas on intent.
I really don't get the point of calling on canon and the other one non-canon, because you do realize that the anime covers mostly the same story as the manga with the exception of making minor changes (such as Yusuke's mom accompanying him to the Dark Tournament in the manga but not in the anime, which didn't really have an effect on the plot, either way), don't you? The main difference between the 2 is that the anime adds filler scenes that unlike most other shounen anime, actually help add to the flow of the story, rather than feel completely out of place. In that regard you could say that the added scenes in the anime should be considered canon and leave it at that. To call the manga just a rough draft wouldn't be entirely accurate, though, because it also has scenes early and late in the manga that were never animated, including how Kurama and Hiei met (which I myself consider to be canon, and don't recall seeing in the anime). Actually, there are a bunch of small stories featuring Yusuke as a ghost, and some other stories toward the end of the manga where they partake in some one-shot shenanigans that is actually quite fun and humorous and doesn't conflict with any other story-lines which I would consider canon as well (and those also didn't make it into the anime). The only part where you'd have a major conflict is the ending, in which case you could just choose whichever version that you prefer. In the end of the manga, Genkai has passed away and leaves her lands to Yusuke and his friends, whereas she is still alive at the end of the anime, so it's up to you which ending you see as canon. Other than that, I'd accept the parts unique to the anime and the parts unique to the anime as both being canon since neither directly conflicts with each other.
Oh, wait, I actually forgot that the anime slightly alters a story-line when Yusuke's a ghost and completely changes the role of a minor character from the manga in doing so, in which case I'd pick the manga's version of the ghost story-arc as canon, which is one of the very few instances in which I prefer something from the manga over the a anime. I still hold true to what I said in regard to the rest of the series, though.
I've heard Agents of Shield goes back on a promise Nick Fury made at the end of Winter Soldier. If that's true, then I'm definitely going to consider in non-canon. I haven't been able to confirm it, but I'm not going to waste my time watching it to find out.
Oh, here's another one:
Bad Boys, Shounan Junai Gumi, and the original GTO manga are all canon. Shounan 14 Days and Paradise Lost are not. The series just really lost its way after the original GTO, IMO.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on July 25, 2014, 12:41:50 PM
Agents of SHIELD is non-canon to the MCU. Unless they directly reference it I. The films in a way that's impossible to ignore (which to my knowledge they haven't done yet), I can go on pretending that it doesn't exist.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on July 25, 2014, 12:30:03 PMYu Yu Hakusho
The anime is the canon version to me. I consider the manga to be a rough draft (and, in the case of the fourth arc, a very sloppy rough draft). Why wouldn't I consider the fleshed out and complete version of the Three Kings story line to be canon? The anime is also the version that completes the story of Yusuke's development, and that's an important theme in the story. If the manga disregards that, then it fits right into my ideas on intent.
I really don't get the point of calling on canon and the other one non-canon, because you do realize that the anime covers mostly the same story as the manga with the exception of making minor changes (such as Yusuke's mom accompanying him to the Dark Tournament in the manga but not in the anime, which didn't really have an effect on the plot, either way), don't you? The main difference between the 2 is that the anime adds filler scenes that unlike most other shounen anime, actually help add to the flow of the story, rather than feel completely out of place. In that regard you could say that the added scenes in the anime should be considered canon and leave it at that. To call the manga just a rough draft wouldn't be entirely accurate, though, because it also has scenes early and late in the manga that were never animated, including how Kurama and Hiei met (which I myself consider to be canon, and don't recall seeing in the anime). Actually, there are a bunch of small stories featuring Yusuke as a ghost, and some other stories toward the end of the manga where they partake in some one-shot shenanigans that is actually quite fun and humorous and doesn't conflict with any other story-lines which I would consider canon as well (and those also didn't make it into the anime). The only part where you'd have a major conflict is the ending, in which case you could just choose whichever version that you prefer. In the end of the manga, Genkai has passed away and leaves her lands to Yusuke and his friends, whereas she is still alive at the end of the anime, so it's up to you which ending you see as canon. Other than that, I'd accept the parts unique to the anime and the parts unique to the anime as both being canon since neither directly conflicts with each other.
I guess so. The best way to put it is probably that they are both canon, but both versions are missing a few pages that they other has (with the exception of the few times where the anime and manga simply differ). However, I will still say that, to me, the anime version of the Three Kings arc is the canon version. That's really what I wanted to establish in that post.
I need to re-read the manga version to see if there are major story conflicts, but I would certainly agree in terms of preferring the anime version to the manga. That arc was so rushed and disjointed in the manga, and the scenes that the anime added (including an entire episode of material that was never included in the manga) were completely welcome and really helped to flesh out the arc.
While it would of course never actually happen, part of me always wished for Togashi to go back and re-write that arc while in his A-game.
On another note:
The Trunks and Bardock specials of DBZ are canon to the manga. If you try to argue with me I'll just ignore you. They are both too awesome and well-written to not be candied red canon.
I also like to consider most of the Dragon Ball filler canon, especially the stuff with Colonel Silver and the parts that expanded Tenshinhan's character.
Also, I have to say that I wish I could knock the Star Wars prequels out of canon. But they just happen to be so much harder to forget compared to many of the sequels listed in this thread. I guess the problem largely is that they were written by George Lucas, and the amount of drama surrounding Lucas makes the prequels so hard to forget. They are basically landmarks in the history of cinema failures.
There is also the fact that I'm willing to bet that the sequel trilogy will make a point of establishing the events of the prequel storylines. But really, the story is just so much better if we say the prequels aren't canon.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on July 25, 2014, 01:07:40 PM
I need to re-read the manga version to see if there are major story conflicts, but I would certainly agree in terms of preferring the anime version to the manga. That arc was so rushed and disjointed in the manga, and the scenes that the anime added (including an entire episode of material that was never included in the manga) were completely welcome and really helped to flesh out the arc.
While it would of course never actually happen, part of me always wished for Togashi to go back and re-write that arc while in his A-game.
In the style of a Demon World war!
The anime version of Three Kings is the only one worth mentioning. There are so many holes, out of character moments, inconsistencies, and stupid ideas not thought out, that it was almost a miracle that the anime staff managed to fix it and make it good at the same time. I'm fairly certain anyone who considers the manga version superior is in a very tiny minority.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on July 25, 2014, 01:07:40 PMThe Trunks and Bardock specials of DBZ are canon to the manga. If you try to argue with me I'll just ignore you. They are both too awesome and well-written to not be candied red canon.
I also like to consider most of the Dragon Ball filler canon, especially the stuff with Colonel Silver and the parts that expanded Tenshinhan's character.
Doesn't Toriyama basically consider Bardock and Trunks canon? He just didn't have anywhere to write them down in the manga.
As for the latter, why not? Dragon Ball's filler is fun and matches well with the style and intent of the manga.
I can accept certain elements of the prequels as canon, such as how Anakin came to be trained under Obi-Wan, Order 66, Anakin's turn, etc. However, I just don't want to accept the films themselves. I like to think that the major events from those still happened, just with better writing, directing and acting than what we got. I. Other words, the prequel films were never made yet and we just have some facts about the history to go on.
Also, I don't know much about the Star Wars expanded Universe my those and such, but it consider the KOTOR games to be canon. I'd like to consider the Jedi Knight games to be canon as well, but these sequels will no doubt directly conflict with those games. It'd be nice if Kyle Katarn at least gets a name drop or reference in the sequels, though. He's just too awesome to ignore.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 25, 2014, 01:13:16 PM
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on July 25, 2014, 01:07:40 PMThe Trunks and Bardock specials of DBZ are canon to the manga. If you try to argue with me I'll just ignore you. They are both too awesome and well-written to not be candied red canon.
I also like to consider most of the Dragon Ball filler canon, especially the stuff with Colonel Silver and the parts that expanded Tenshinhan's character.
Doesn't Toriyama basically consider Bardock and Trunks canon? He just didn't have anywhere to write them down in the manga.
As for the latter, why not? Dragon Ball's filler is fun and matches well with the style and intent of the manga.
I've only ever heard that Toriyama really liked the Bardock special and incorporated the character into the manga, so I guess he considers that canon, but I never heard anything about the Trunks special in that regard, but it DOES fit in line with his back-story as described in the manga, so it should be considered canon, IMO.
The best Star Wars books are the Thrawn trilogy by Timothy Zahn. If you're a fan, you should probably seek them out. Most people basically consider them episode 7, 8, and, 9.
Didn't Lucas recently axe just about all the Expanded Universe material from the canon, leaving only Episodes I-VI and the Clone Ware animated shows?
Yep. Needless to say, I don't think that the SW fan-base was very pleased with that.
As for other stuff:
For the DMC series, while it's not like it has a particularly noteworthy story-line, I still want to make it clear that I don't consider DMC2 to be canon. And of course DmC exists in its own alternate reality, so that one shouldn't even come into question.
Also, as for another series where story doesn't matter, I don't consider the 3D NG games to exist in the same reality as the NES ones. I know that. Itagaki claimed them to be prequels, but I just consider them a reboot that takes place in a completely different canon from the old games. That, and NG3 for the 3D games is non-canon, either way.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on July 25, 2014, 01:33:15 PM
Didn't Lucas recently axe just about all the Expanded Universe material from the canon, leaving only Episodes I-VI and the Clone Ware animated shows?
That didn't change many fans' opinions, honestly. I would suggest reading them anyway.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on July 25, 2014, 12:57:18 PM
Oh, here's another one:
Bad Boys, Shounan Junai Gumi, and the original GTO manga are all canon. Shounan 14 Days and Paradise Lost are not. The series just really lost its way after the original GTO, IMO.
Don't forget to disregard
GT-R and
Ino Head Gargoyle too. Not to mention all those mediocre live-action spinoffs.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on July 25, 2014, 01:07:40 PM
The Trunks and Bardock specials of DBZ are canon to the manga. If you try to argue with me I'll just ignore you. They are both too awesome and well-written to not be candied red canon.
I'm afraid the
Bardock special is no longer canon to the manga. Toriyama himself retconned it in
Dragon Ball Minus, a special bonus chapter that was included in the
Jaco the Galactic Patrolman volume release.
Jaco is also an official prequel to
Dragon Ball, by the way.
The
Trunks special, however, IS canon because it is in fact an adaption of a bonus chapter Toriyama created and included in the 18th volume of
Z portion of the manga, so no worries there.
Basically, the canon of the DB manga is thus:
Dragon Ball Minus -
Jaco the Galactic Patrolman -
Dragon Ball -
DBZ: Battle of Gods - DBZ 2015 film.
Anyway, I consider anime adaptions a different continuity altogether from their manga, so I'd say they all have their own separate "canon" unless stated otherwise by the creators.
another dbz film is coming out?
So... Kid Buu being born again as Uub is canon? But him being utterly useless in GT isn't?
Fine by me.
Quote from: gunswordfist on July 26, 2014, 07:12:28 PM
another dbz film is coming out?
Yes. (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2014-07-15/dragon-ball-z-gets-new-2015-film-by-creator-toriyama/.76681)
Also, as far as the Superman film series go, the only canon movies are Superman, and Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut (that instead of the original Superman II because it represents the original intent of the film and is overall better). III and IV are bad (they also make choices that I feel hurt the first two films). In fact, III and IV are thrown out of the canon by Superman Returns, which apparently picks up where II left off. But, from what I hear, Superman Returns isn't all that great either. I haven't seen it yet, but until I do (if that actually happens), only the first two movies are canon in my mind.
I actually kind of feel that a Returns gets way more flak than it deserves. At the very least I liked it better than Man of Steel.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on July 28, 2014, 02:15:46 PM
I actually kind of feel that a Returns gets way more flak than it deserves. At the very least I liked it better than Man of Steel.
Same.
I would consider it canon and an end to the original Superman movie series. It might be flawed, but it is a solid ending for what it is.
Yeah, I'd consider it canon as well.
It's a shame we didn't get a great ending in Superman II. I mean, the idea of Superman erasing Lois' memory works. I mean, just think about how broken she was at the end of that movie. However, the execution of it wasn't done well. The idea for Superman to erase her memories by kissing her was just on the spot writing. Of course, that wasn't Donner's intent with the movie, and he didn't like it so he didn't use it in his cut of the film... But even worse, he never filmed an ending to Superman II, so he just recycled the ending of the first movie, literally reusing the same footage, and it just made things worse. I love Superman II as much as I love the original Superman, but either way you go with the movie, you get a weak ending.
I just saw the trailer for the new Terminator film.
What in the world did I just watch? :wth:
In case I haven't already said it before, The Terminator story ended with the second movie. It perfectly complemented the first film, and both enriched AND capped off the mythology by making it do that Judgement Day would never happen. Both movies told a great story that needed absolutely nothing else added to it. Then T3 happened and completely missed the point of what the first 2 films were all about. Then we got Salvation which tried to explore the events of the human/machine war (which, I remind you, completely neglects the fact that T2 pretty much wrote Judgement Day out of existence thanks to them successfully getting rid of all advanced Skynet technology and blueprints), but also showed us why James Cameron never focused on that part of the mythology. In either of the first 2 movies in the first place: because the story was never about that. It was always about the here and now, and that scary future was more of a threat that we wanted to avoid. The war itself wasn't that interesting so much as the effort to prevent it was.
This new film just looks like a mess. It seems to be trying to cram in elements of all previous Terminator films, and is suffering for it. It basically seems like an inferior remake of the first movie.
They really should have left it alone after 2. Nobody was looking for a third movie.
I'm surprised they're even doing this movie, though. Didn't the last one do horrendously awful business? It seems audiences have already spoken. Leave the franchise alone and do something else.
Wasn't Judgement Day triggered by research on the arm of the T-800 (from the first movie), which got destroyed at the end of 2?
Quote from: talonmalon333 on December 08, 2014, 04:29:07 PM
Wasn't Judgement Day triggered by research on the arm of the T-800 (from the first movie), which got destroyed at the end of 2?
Not to mention that Miles Dyson, the man who is the one that created SkyNet, sacrifices himself in order to stop the future from happening. There are no remaining files, there is no evidence, there are no remains, and the man who spearheaded the project is dead.
Sure someone else could (and probably would) come along to make their own version of SkyNet in the future, but that would still be far different from the one in the movies. The fact of the matter is that T3
really reached to make itself viable as a story.
Terminator 3 is even less canon than Alien 3 as far as I'm concerned, even though it's supposedly a better made film.
i heard cameron didn't do that many future scenes due to technology and/or budget limits. i would have liked to see him do more with that. since that's not possible anymore, i would love to see a good game that's set in t1's future.
but but, skynet inserted itself into the internet!
Quote from: gunswordfist on December 08, 2014, 06:15:24 PM
i would love to see a good game that's set in t1's future.
What future? The one that will be completely normal with no Judgement Day?
Quote from: talonmalon333 on December 08, 2014, 06:25:39 PM
Quote from: gunswordfist on December 08, 2014, 06:15:24 PM
i would love to see a good game that's set in t1's future.
What future? The one that will be completely normal with no Judgement Day?
The future before Kyle Reese went back in time to change anything.
Not the future of T3 that says he might as well have walked off a bridge as his going to the past didn't matter one iota.
that's what i meant. thanks. i would want to see that even more than a good aliens game.