To me, this is the pinnacle of how to to a good battle-oriented shounen series, in that its honestly not all that battle-oriented for something being in the action shounen genre. It does have its fair share of action, but it also focuses a ton of the characters and their backgrounds, and it generally has very clever writing behind it, so much so to the point that I'm willing to bet that even our resident shounen hater (aka Foggle ;) ) would have a hard time finding too much to fault this particular series for. It generally has what most shounen series in the same genre lack, and that's substance....good substance. It always has something interesting going on, never wastes time with pointless fan-service, and is generally focused on having interesting characters and plots. What this series especially deserves credit for its how it develops its villains. Its a well-known fact that YYH's main villains are, often-times, even more interesting than its heros. That's not to say that the main bunch isn't a fun group to stick through the show with, but to me, its YYH's villains more than anything else that truly make its cast work so well.
There are just too many great things that I can say about this show. What about negatives? Well, I won't pretend like its flawless, there are some weaker aspects to this show, but I'll share my thoughts on those later. For now, I would like to once again have at least a little bit of serious discussion as to the quality of this show. For me, its a great show that stands out from other shounen. Perhaps some would disagree, and I would love the input of opinions of people who feel that way about the show, but I would also like to read other people's current thoughts on this series in general.
I can say for certain that this is one of the few animated shows that I can never get tired of, and now matter how much time passes, its quality just completely fails to lower at all for me, upon numerous repeated viewings. Its a series that I can safel say is above the veil of nostalgia. For me, at the very least, its a timeless classic.
I wish I had money to finish collecting this show on DVD. I was right near the end of the Dark Tournament, too.
Oh well, it's still a great show. One of the best cases for anime made from manga source material there is, as it actually improved upon the source material.
You know, maybe its just me, but it wasn't until after a few re-viewings of the series that I realized how well-crafted of a villain Sakyo is in the anime, specifically. He's the real brains behind Toguro, the essential reason for why Sensui turned out the way that he did, and basically serves as a mastermind who really made his own way to the top of the criminal underground. I kind of wish that he had a bit more importance in his role in the series, and that he his character had been expanded upon some more, not necessarily with more back-story, since I kind of liked the mysterious sort of resonance about his character, but more so in terms of just being fleshed out some more in his personality. He may not have been on screen very often, and when he was on screen it certainly wasn't for very long, but he was always interesting to watch, and the scenes he was in were always that much more interesting for me just because of his presence, with him being their in the middle of the situation.
Anyone else have any thoughts on Sakyo, or any other villains in the series?
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on December 27, 2010, 11:16:53 PM
You know, maybe its just me, but it wasn't until after a few re-viewings of the series that I realized how well-crafted of a villain Sakyo is in the anime, specifically. He's the real brains behind Toguro, the essential reason for why Sensui turned out the way that he did, and basically serves as a mastermind who really made his own way to the top of the criminal underground. I kind of wish that he had a bit more importance in his role in the series, and that he his character had been expanded upon some more, not necessarily with more back-story, since I kind of liked the mysterious sort of resonance about his character, but more so in terms of just being fleshed out some more in his personality. He may not have been on screen very often, and when he was on screen it certainly wasn't for very long, but he was always interesting to watch, and the scenes he was in were always that much more interesting for me just because of his presence, with him being their in the middle of the situation.
Anyone else have any thoughts on Sakyo, or any other villains in the series?
I always thought Sakyo had potential as one of the series' main villains, even though he wasn't the antagonist of a single arc. I agree with you that they could have given him more time. :(
So, lately I've been re-watching YYH with subtitles this time, since I never watched the first series fully in Japanese with subtitles, and while I will always prefer the excellent dub, I figured I'd make my 15th (or is this my 16th....) time going through the series a little different by watching the show in its original format with its original voice actors....except with subtitles since I can't speak Japanese (though, I swear I could probably understand every general thing that is being said in the series without any subtitles after all of the times that I've watched it, myself).
So, yeah, as for my thoughts on the Japanese voice acting, while I have grown too attached to the English voices to ever stop loving the dub for YYH, I have to be honest and give credit to the Japanese cast for being quite good. That's actually saying something coming from me, since most of the time I'm indifferent towards Japanese acting, where I honestly find a lot of voices to be indistinguishable from other ones and not the least bit memorable. In certain cases, though, the voice actors are doing real character roles, and by that I mean that they use very distinguished and unique sorts of voices that would specifically fit the animated character that they are voicing, but which wouldn't sound like how somebody would talk in the real world (One Piece is the absolute best when it comes to Japanese "character" voices, IMO).
Anyways, I really like Chiba Shigeru's voice for Kuwabara, the only voice that I will personally admit to being better than in the dub, if only because Chiba Shigeru conveys both the humorous and serious sides of the character perfectly, whereas Chris Sabat's more "rusty" voice for Kuwabara is initially grating before he grows into the voice for the character to the point where its much better fit for him (which, IMO, isn't really until late into the Dark Tournament arc). Hiei's voice is about as good in quality as Chuck Huber's portrayal of the character is. As for Kurama, while I'm so used to the fact that characters of his type often get a female voice attached to them despite their gender, I'm also very indifferent to it by now, and to be honest I don't really feel too positively or negatively about his voice either way. I will say that I personally much prefer John Burgmeier's voice for Kurama, though, as he really captures the intellect and sophistication of the character in his portrayal of him. With his Japanese VA, I get the sophistication part of it, but not necessarily the intellect part when it comes to that voice.
As for Yusuke (who's voiced by Nozomu Sasaki, which is surprising considering how he has voice acted in many popular anime, from stuff like anime films like Akira all the way to anime TV series like Death Note), I feel that his voice really captures the "street-punk" side of his character and all of his odd natures and tendencies, but at the same time I'd be lying if I said that Justin Cook's awesome one-liners and overall performance for the character (especially when it comes to the sarcasm) easily wins me over each and every single time.
Overall, though, I'm enjoying watching this series subbed just as much as I do dubbed, thus proving that its greatness transcends just what language I'm used to watching it in.
My current favorite anime at the moment! Just a fantastic series!
And this is coming from a someone who thinks 96% of anime is shit. :devil:
Wow, must be counting anime by the episode or something.
Even the ones people say are more "serious" attempts like Princess Mononoke and Perfect Blue. They're all shit. But, that's just me.
Being someone who doesn't really care for Miyazaki works, I certainly wouldn't call any of them shit, either (also, I haven't seen Perfect Blue so I have no opinion on that anime). They have a lot of effort put into them and they do at least each have themes to portray and characters to develop, so I at least have respect for stuff like that even if they aren't my cup of tea.
As for most anime being shit, that is indeed true, but I would argue that 90% of just about any form of media is complete shit, all the same. With video games and films, we usually only tend to remember the good ones, but for every great movie that I have seen I could easily name 9 terrible ones, and the same goes for video games, novels, and any other form of media (I'd say music but I haven't listened to enough, but I'm sure that Avaitor or someone else could attest to there being plenty of terrible songs out there for every true hit). I haven't had an awful lot of exposure to anime, but in general I find most that I watch to be pretty boring and I never get past a few episodes or in some cases a few minutes, but at the same time I can't deny the great ones that I have seen their true quality, either, such as Monster, Ninja Scroll, Cowboy Bebop, and various other, of course including Yu Yu Hakusho which I would still argue to this day is the pinnacle of the battle shonen genre as far as any anime go (its also consequentially my personal favorite anime title, even though I can admit there are better "quality" anime out there, though none appeal to me quite as much as YYH does).
Yeah, your probably right Princess Mononoke just wasn't for me then. It is probably better than most of anime shows, or movies I see.
Your right 90% of everything being crap, but for anime....well let's just say my 96% is generous on my part! I could go to 99%! But, I say 96% since, there most be some more good. Even thought it's not looking like it. :-X
To be honest, I can let an anime pass if it entertains me. Naruto, Bleach, Pokemon, Beyblade, Medabots, Zatch Bell and Yugioh are all awful, just terrible but nostalgia couple with the plain fun action scenes these series have keeps me watching them. Yeah, guilty pleasures!
Now for something I genuinely like hmm.........BOBOBO! and Cowboy Bebop. Thoses are nice! Also a shoutout to Miyazaki's other films with "Spirirted Away" being my favorite. FMA the original series wins points with me too.
Meh, what can I say? I prefer Western animation.
I too prefer Western animation on the whole (though admittedly I have been quite distant from animation in general and out of touch with most recent shows in the past couple of years). I was just pointing out that when you think about it there are a ton of duds in every genre. The reason why I personally wouldn't say that 99% of anime is crap is because I haven't seen all that many anime, being that I'm not really a fan of anime as much as I am a fan of a few really well-done anime shows and movies. For me though, in general, I'd say that about 75% of the anime material that I have watched is stuff that was either too boring or too terrible to interest me and I basically dropped those series, and another 5% is the boring or terrible shows which I actually bothered to finish, to my regret....
About 15%, though, are fairly decent shows and movies IMO, and the last 5% are stuff that I would truly call great and memorable works. When I think about it, though, these percentages aren't terribly too far off when I think of other media, such as films and books and the like (though, admittedly there is probably a slightly bigger percentage of stuff that I like compared to stuff that I dislike or hate).
Maybe, I'm just bitter about anime. :sweat:
Since, this a Yuyu Hakusho thread can someone answer these questions for me!
In the Dark Tournament saga why is that over the 50 years that have passed both Toguros still remains a B-level demons? They wished to be the strongest demons they could be on Earth correct? Which, on Earth is B class. So, why in the heck aren't they a A-class, or S-class by then? Seems a bit of a plothole to me. Unless, I'm missing something. :thinkin:
Quote from: Aurora on March 23, 2011, 08:24:37 PM
In the Dark Tournament saga why is that over the 50 years that have passed both Toguros still remains a B-level demons? They wished to be the strongest demons they could be on Earth correct? Which, on Earth is B class. So, why in the heck aren't they a A-class, or S-class by then? Seems a bit of a plothole to me. Unless, I'm missing something. :thinkin:
Maybe the wish was a double-edged sword, and made it so that they were stuck at that level or something. After all, when have wishes granted by demons ever been a complete success?
Isn't the cap for demons on this side of the gate B class? I thought that came up at one point, it even upset Hiei because he wasn't A class, IIRC.
**Resident YYH expert on duty**
Toguro couldn't become stronger because he had nobody to challenge his skills nor did he have a certain unknown blood-line type power-up that a certain character would get later on. Toguro became the strongest demon on Earth, indeed, but in the process since he was so strong there was no way he could get stronger unless he had tougher opponents around to face and overcome, which he mentioned only a couple of times in the series (its classic shonen logic, but I suppose it does make more actual sense than most other shonen "logic"). The whole reason he was interested in Yusuke is because he saw potential in him to surpass him, especially when he realized that he was Genkai's disciple and was sure that Genkai would pass on most of her power to him eventually.
Quote from: Desensitized on March 23, 2011, 08:46:37 PM
Isn't the cap for demons on this side of the gate B class? I thought that came up at one point, it even upset Hiei because he wasn't A class, IIRC.
That cap has more to do with going through realms (Also, Hiei was actually a higher class demon as a child but after getting the Jagan eye implanted by Shigure his power was drastically drained until he worked his way back up to the top at the end of the series). Koenma explains in the Chapter Black arc that the realm is designed to keep out the baddest of the bad guys among demons, so its meant to block any demons of B class or higher. However, for some reason related to how it works, lower class demons that are more minute problems ranging from C class and lower can pass by unnoticed, but it was decided by Spirit World that it was a minor issue compared to letting potential planet-destroying demons into the Human realm. In fact, if you think about it the other "small-time crook" sorts of demons that are of lower classes that could pass through the barrier are pretty much what the job of the Spirit Detective was created for in the first place, hence why all of Yusuke's early foes in the 1st few arcs are all much weaker classed demons.
The whole point of Sakyo's involvement in the Dark Tournament was to win it and be granted the ability to open up a massive portal between the human and demon realms, and in many ways it should be pointed out that he was the real villain of the Dark Tournament arc. Toguro was really more obssessed with Yusuke and admitted that he no longer cared about whether he could make it to the demon realm or not, as his new focus was to draw out Yusuke's potential. Genkai even pointed out that he actually went out of his way to guide Yusuke along, in that it was his involvement that insured that Yusuke wouldn't make the same mistakes that he did in his life which it was pretty heavily implied that he deeply regretted yet accepted that he couldn't ever take it back. This is what I love about Togashi when it comes to villains. The guy can really create multi-layered characters while still making them come off as seriously threatening opposition to the main heroes.
I don't know whether I prefer western animation or anime. I pretty much hate everything. :thumbup:
Quote from: Desensitized on March 23, 2011, 08:46:37 PM
Isn't the cap for demons on this side of the gate B class? I thought that came up at one point, it even upset Hiei because he wasn't A class, IIRC.
You're memory is complete ass. Hiei was upset and momentarily seperated from the group because Koenma revealed that he was a mid B level demon while Toguro was a high level B demon. Basically he was upset at not being stronger than Toguro.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 23, 2011, 09:47:34 PM
**Resident YYH expert on duty**
Toguro couldn't become stronger because he had nobody to challenge his skills nor did he have a certain unknown blood-line type power-up that a certain character would get later on. Toguro became the strongest demon on Earth, indeed, but in the process since he was so strong there was no way he could get stronger unless he had tougher opponents around to face and overcome, which he mentioned only a couple of times in the series (its classic shonen logic, but I suppose it does make more actual sense than most other shonen "logic"). The whole reason he was interested in Yusuke is because he saw potential in him to surpass him, especially when he realized that he was Genkai's disciple and was sure that Genkai would pass on most of her power to him eventually.
Quote from: Desensitized on March 23, 2011, 08:46:37 PM
Isn't the cap for demons on this side of the gate B class? I thought that came up at one point, it even upset Hiei because he wasn't A class, IIRC.
That cap has more to do with going through realms (Also, Hiei was actually a higher class demon as a child but after getting the Jagan eye implanted by Shigure his power was drastically drained until he worked his way back up to the top at the end of the series). Koenma explains in the Chapter Black arc that the realm is designed to keep out the baddest of the bad guys among demons, so its meant to block any demons of B class or higher. However, for some reason related to how it works, lower class demons that are more minute problems ranging from C class and lower can pass by unnoticed, but it was decided by Spirit World that it was a minor issue compared to letting potential planet-destroying demons into the Human realm. In fact, if you think about it the other "small-time crook" sorts of demons that are of lower classes that could pass through the barrier are pretty much what the job of the Spirit Detective was created for in the first place, hence why all of Yusuke's early foes in the 1st few arcs are all much weaker classed demons.
The whole point of Sakyo's involvement in the Dark Tournament was to win it and be granted the ability to open up a massive portal between the human and demon realms, and in many ways it should be pointed out that he was the real villain of the Dark Tournament arc. Toguro was really more obssessed with Yusuke and admitted that he no longer cared about whether he could make it to the demon realm or not, as his new focus was to draw out Yusuke's potential. Genkai even pointed out that he actually went out of his way to guide Yusuke along, in that it was his involvement that insured that Yusuke wouldn't make the same mistakes that he did in his life which it was pretty heavily implied that he deeply regretted yet accepted that he couldn't ever take it back. This is what I love about Togashi when it comes to villains. The guy can really create multi-layered characters while still making them come off as seriously threatening opposition to the main heroes.
Yu yu Hakusho has no planet destroying demons. Koenma made that clear when I believe Seaman asked why isn't the planet destroyed yet the second the barrier was cut. Koenma then explained that groups of demons would destroy cities and etc. They can't split the Earth in half or any Superman shit.
First of all, I used it more of a figure of speech in terms of the anime, but since I wouldn't expect a dumb-shit like you to know any better, go read the manga. Its clearly mentioned that such demons exist in that. :>
Of course, I'm glad that YYH never actually bothered to go to that point, but if I were you I wouldn't try to argue with me when it comes to YYH. :sly:
Post some scans, bitch, or you'll labeled as a liar.
I don't have a fucking scanner on me, and posting any fan translations are prohibited. How about you stop reading garbage all the time and pick up the manga from some bookstore or something and see for yourself? I just love how you can't admit when you're completely wrong so that you don't look like an idiot, but you don't have to worry about that, because everybody already knows full well how retarded you are. :sly:
Well, it's in the manga, but not in anime. And since, I've only seen the anime, and no mention is said of it in the series I'm gonna go with there is no planet destroying demons. ;D
Quote from: Aurora on March 24, 2011, 09:53:24 PM
Well, it's in the manga, but not in anime. And since, I've only seen the anime, and no mention is said of it in the series I'm gonna go with there is no planet destroying demons. ;D
HA!!!!!! And EK, try actually finishing Watchmen before you try and talk about me.
WTF Does that even have to do with anything, dumb-fuck?
I have to say....I actually really like Chapter Black now. I never finished it back then........because they changed it at 5 am in the morning for starters. :devil:
The idea of territories didn't really work with me back then, but I GOT OVER IT! :sly:
I remember being really disturbed, and even scared by this season compared to all the rest. Seriously, I was like- :cry:
The Chapter Black tape
The Demon Portal
The S and A class demons
Sensui's Strength and Power.
:shit:
On the plus side when I was young seeing this season.....Elder Toguro. Loved seeing him suffer at the end. :whip:
Glad you liked it. Territories are so ingenious.
So, you all like the last Season?
It's hate at some forums, but from what I remember viewing it I don't remember being particularly bad. It defiantly could have benefited from a longer season though.
The final season is pretty underrated, IMO. Its definitely a lot weaker than the Chapter Black and Dark Tournament arcs, but it had the most potential to be a great arc out of all of them. The problem lies in the fact that it was rushed. Togashi, as I have heard, originally wanted to end YYH after Chapter Black, but was forced by his editors to continue since it was still fairly popular, and he did come up with some really good ideas for the final season, but its clear that his heart wasn't really in his work by that point anymore, and he just wanted to get the series over with by that point. Even so, I think the anime did an excellent job of expanding the thin amount of material that he had there, and aside from the last few episodes which ended up resolving anything with a very rushed and disappointing tournament, I thought the rest of the arc was actually quite well-done. The hate is completely unfounded, since a bunch of people who hate it only hate it for the fact that it wasn't super action-heavy since it just threw in a tournament at the last minute. I can agree hating that final portion of it, but everything up until then was far from bad.
The whole relationship between Kurama and Yomi is excellently written and that aspect of the arc didn't feel rushed at all. I love how Yomi, who was formerly a subordinate of Kurama learned from his mistakes and Kurama's intelligence in the past and actually forced Kurama into a position of being his personal adviser against his will. I really liked how Demon World was actually shown to have its own social structure and politics, and that there were 3 kingdoms vying for power, and pretty much on the brink of all out war. It was an extremely good set-up, and in terms of execution it was handled well up until the final few episodes.
The disappointing aspects of it completely removed Kuwabara from the story and it had a disappointing resolution since it was initially building up a full-scale war which would have been interesting to see Togashi do in YYH.
Overall, though, I mostly disagree with the hate that the final arc gets. I admit that I used to be one of those people who disliked it, but upon re-watching it several times over, it has only grown on me over time.
I still think it would have been cool to see the Hiei story follow what Togashi put in the manga (sorry to spin an old thought)
Which particular part of the manga are you referring to? Are you referencing that part where Hiei gives Mukuro a certain little "gift" (in a manner of speaking)? Because if that's so, then I agree with you. :D
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 07, 2011, 12:24:36 PM
The final season is pretty underrated, IMO. Its definitely a lot weaker than the Chapter Black and Dark Tournament arcs, but it had the most potential to be a great arc out of all of them. The problem lies in the fact that it was rushed. Togashi, as I have heard, originally wanted to end YYH after Chapter Black, but was forced by his editors to continue since it was still fairly popular, and he did come up with some really good ideas for the final season, but its clear that his heart wasn't really in his work by that point anymore, and he just wanted to get the series over with by that point. Even so, I think the anime did an excellent job of expanding the thin amount of material that he had there, and aside from the last few episodes which ended up resolving anything with a very rushed and disappointing tournament, I thought the rest of the arc was actually quite well-done. The hate is completely unfounded, since a bunch of people who hate it only hate it for the fact that it wasn't super action-heavy since it just threw in a tournament at the last minute. I can agree hating that final portion of it, but everything up until then was far from bad.
The whole relationship between Kurama and Yomi is excellently written and that aspect of the arc didn't feel rushed at all. I love how Yomi, who was formerly a subordinate of Kurama learned from his mistakes and Kurama's intelligence in the past and actually forced Kurama into a position of being his personal adviser against his will. I really liked how Demon World was actually shown to have its own social structure and politics, and that there were 3 kingdoms vying for power, and pretty much on the brink of all out war. It was an extremely good set-up, and in terms of execution it was handled well up until the final few episodes.
The disappointing aspects of it completely removed Kuwabara from the story and it had a disappointing resolution since it was initially building up a full-scale war which would have been interesting to see Togashi do in YYH.
Overall, though, I mostly disagree with the hate that the final arc gets. I admit that I used to be one of those people who disliked it, but upon re-watching it several times over, it has only grown on me over time.
Was writing this yesterday but the internet messed me up.
Anyway, I was going to say that the season is good before the tournament before I read your post. The Demon Tournament concept was completely disappointing barring about 4 fights. A great war between the 3 kingdoms was being set up and then the kings no longer able to go to war since they agreed upon entering the tournament. What's the saddest about that is we didn't get to see Yusuke, Hiei or Kurama fight. It would have been interesting seeing them caught in a situation where they would have to fight to the death because they are on different sides. Namely Yusuke vs Kurama. Can you imagine trying to see Yusuke get around one of Kurama's strategies? Aso a Kurama/Hiei and Yusuke/Hiei rematch would be nice especially since the last Hiei vs Yusuke fight really really sucked (the one in Chapter Black, bleeh) It would have been interesting to finally see Yusuke and Hiei go all out when they are that powerful. Yusuke just escaped death and was 100% when they last fought. Also, we got to NOT see Mukuro vs Yomi. It's like they did all that to avoid showing us how was more powerful than who.
The Three Kings could have been my favorite arc if the war actually happened. They could have did things like having Raizen's old acquiantances join up with Yusuke instead of being in that stinking tournament. Oh and Yusuke's former opponents from the Dark Tournament. Dammit, I wanted to see Shishiwakamaru at war. He gave Genkai her best fight. Grr, I could go on forever.
And when don't bosses of anything you love not fuck up anything (Ninja Gaiden, Rurouni Kenshin) :D I didn't know the editors urged Togashi to do the arc. Oh and no Kuwabara is always a great thing. ;D
I pretty much agree with that, though on the Yusuke vs. Hiei fight the point wasn't that they were really even trying to take each other down, but its another part of common shonen tropes (though its not used much anymore, these days) where 2 people just like to flair each other up for something big to come with some light sparring (and to them that was basically just sparring rather than actually fighting).
But, yeah, I also thought that the most interesting aspect of the war would have been that Yusuke, Hiei, and Kurama each support different sides for their own reasons, and in Kurama's case it was once again in a situation in which he needed to protect his mother, so he wouldn't even be able to consider teaming up with Yusuke or Hiei, and would have to fight them as enemies since Yomi isn't a total dumb-ass like Roto was and could actually back up his threats so that he'd have a tight control over Kurama's mother and could have her killed at any time he wanted. It would have added for some interesting tension between the main cast.
Overall, though, I think that everything that happened in that arc up until just before the tournament was genuinely good material. So I disagree that it was a bad arc.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 09, 2011, 02:36:00 PM
I pretty much agree with that, though on the Yusuke vs. Hiei fight the point wasn't that they were really even trying to take each other down, but its another part of common shonen tropes (though its not used much anymore, these days) where 2 people just like to flair each other up for something big to come with some light sparring (and to them that was basically just sparring rather than actually fighting).
But, yeah, I also thought that the most interesting aspect of the war would have been that Yusuke, Hiei, and Kurama each support different sides for their own reasons, and in Kurama's case it was once again in a situation in which he needed to protect his mother, so he wouldn't even be able to consider teaming up with Yusuke or Hiei, and would have to fight them as enemies since Yomi isn't a total dumb-ass like Roto was and could actually back up his threats so that he'd have a tight control over Kurama's mother and could have her killed at any time he wanted. It would have added for some interesting tension between the main cast.
Overall, though, I think that everything that happened in that arc up until just before the tournament was genuinely good material. So I disagree that it was a bad arc.
As far as sparring goes, the first Hiei vs Yusuke "rematch" did that perfectly. Before the tournament, I liked how Hiei attacked Yusuke to get an idea of how much stronger he got. That was cool and served a point. I personally think Hiei saving Yusuke then fighting him two seconds later in the Chapter Black was stupid, not that I'm making a big deal about it but yeah, stupid. ;D
I feel stupid forgetting that Yomi could have gotten Kurama's mother step brother killed at any time. All I remembered was that Yomi lured him to his kingdom due to guilt or was it unfinished business? But yeah, Hiei and Yusuke could have teamed up while Kurama would have had to stay the enemy. That would have been interesting
Quote from: gunswordfist on April 12, 2011, 01:38:11 PM
As far as sparring goes, the first Hiei vs Yusuke "rematch" did that perfectly. Before the tournament, I liked how Hiei attacked Yusuke to get an idea of how much stronger he got. That was cool and served a point. I personally think Hiei saving Yusuke then fighting him two seconds later in the Chapter Black was stupid, not that I'm making a big deal about it but yeah, stupid. ;D
But that's just it, you even acknowledged yourself just now that it was "sparring," so why do you insist on calling it a fight. Its just a single scene that doesn't last very long and there its hardly enough to be called a fight. I think you put too much focus on it for what's obviously just a minor sparring scene. If it actually was a full fledged fight then that would be pretty stupid, but in this case its not.
QuoteI feel stupid forgetting that Yomi could have gotten Kurama's mother step brother killed at any time. All I remembered was that Yomi lured him to his kingdom due to guilt or was it unfinished business? But yeah, Hiei and Yusuke could have teamed up while Kurama would have had to stay the enemy. That would have been interesting
The thing is, I doubt Hiei and Yusuke would have really teamed up, seeing as how Hiei seemed to be pretty loyal to Mukuro and still wasn't such a goodie-goodie that he wouldn't consider fighting Yusuke if things came down to that (especially since it was implied that he kind of wanted to, anyways). And as for Yusuke, Raizen was his very own ancestor, so I doubt that he'd turn on him to join another side so easily, despite the fact that he made it seem like he really hated Raizen (if he really did, though, I doubt that he would have stayed and trained under him for an entire year).
So, really it just seems like the 3 of them wouldn't necessarily be on the best terms with each other, despite the fact that they had functioned as a team in the past.
Just finished Chapter Black, and I gotta say I'm impressed. Everything was almost perfect.I loved it. :sly: Just a couple of things:
- The territories. I got use to them, but they just didn't seem to fit into the demon vibe, so that was pretty weird.
- Alot of the fighting was just punching, and kicking which was kinda a disappointment compared to the special attacks, and strategies of the Dark Tournament.
- And not really a flaw, but Sensui knowing that Koenma would bring Gamemaster to life thus, defeating his little pacifier? A bit of a stretch for me. How did he know Koenma wouldn't have been "Meh, fuck it!". Whatever.
I'm halfway through the Three King Saga and these are my problems:
- The demons. Call them what you will, but they weren't very demon-like to me. They basically, human beings by this arc. Which, didn't fit the vibe previous seasons set up about them. Oddly enough them having cities, and rulers didn't bother me.
- Demons eating people. What? Since, when did this happen? Yeah, yeah I know. This is something I probably should have known since, Season 1, but it was never really touched upon til now. I though they just liked to kill us. And they pretty much make us feel good about these demons, and just ignore that they pretty much devour human beings. :wth:
Which makes me. Does that mean characters we all know and love like the Dark Tournament participants, Hiei, and Kurama did, or still do the same thing? :whuh:
Well, those are the complaints I got that haven't been stated already like, that it should have been a war or thatRaizen should have been around longer. Yadda, yadda, yadda.
A lot of good points you brought up, there, but don't mind me if I give my own thoughts or feedback to them with some of my own responses, and also some explanations that the series provided about those things that you just might have missed going through it (I missed stuff too, on my first run through the series, after all ;) ).
Quote from: Aurora on April 24, 2011, 11:28:13 AM
- The territories. I got use to them, but they just didn't seem to fit into the demon vibe, so that was pretty weird.
Well, the thing about territories that you have to remember is that they aren't either spirit energy or demon energy or anything like that. In the dub they try to get this point across by calling the villains "psychics," and in general they have unique abilities to controls the space around them rather than fire off energy attacks and stuff like that. It may feel a bit out of place, but IMO it made things much more interesting since it provided a plausible way for villains much weaker than the main characters to still keep them at bay, and that's pretty unique for an anime series such as this one (it also keeps things feeling fresh, IMO).
Quote- Alot of the fighting was just punching, and kicking which was kinda a disappointment compared to the special attacks, and strategies of the Dark Tournament.
Yeah, but to be fair this whole arc was a divergent type of fighting. The physical battles were just punching and kicking, but there weren't all that many physical battles to begin with. In place of battles, most of this arc featured the main characters trying to outwit the villains and get past them while obeying the rules of their territories, which to me contained far more strategy and mind games in and of itself than even the DT arc did, when you really think about it.
Quote- And not really a flaw, but Sensui knowing that Koenma would bring Gamemaster to life thus, defeating his little pacifier? A bit of a stretch for me. How did he know Koenma wouldn't have been "Meh, fuck it!". Whatever.
Its not really a stretch at all. In the manga it was more that he wanted to test Koenma's morality rather than being 100% sure he would save Game Master's life, but even so it pointed out that he was pretty sure he would do it because he knew Koenma quite well. Don't forget, he used to be a spirit detective himself, so he worked for Koenma for quite a while, so its not really a stretch that he would know Koenma well enough to realize that he would most likely opt to save Game Master's life, therefore using up a lot of the power stored in his pacifier. And, even if he didn't, don't forget that Sensui hadn't even shown his full strength by that point, so even if Koenma didn't save Game Master's life its still possible that Sensui could have broken out of the constrainment that Koenma created from that energy.
[qipte]I'm halfway through the Three King Saga and these are my problems:
- The demons. Call them what you will, but they weren't very demon-like to me. They basically, human beings by this arc. Which, didn't fit the vibe previous seasons set up about them. Oddly enough them having cities, and rulers didn't bother me.[/quote]
That's the point. In the Chapter Black arc they made it clear that aside from the more "animalistic" type demons (which were usually the weaker class demons that the group was used to fighting), there were many demons that weren't that different from humans in terms of having thought processes and their own emotions and such. In the Three Kings arc they actually go a step further to show that the demon world is actually quite organized and has kingdoms and even politics and wars. Its true that it may seem out of place since the series had a lot of 1-dimensional villains who were demons before the Chapter Black arc (though, to be fair, even the DT arc showed that there were more than just the bland ones that acted like animals), but to me showing that on the whole there were more intelligent demons out there with organization and some form of society and even technology in their own realm actually makes far more sense than just a nonsensical realm of mindless chaos. To me I could still take the show seriously at this point because it did the idea of having more intelligent demons quite well (IMO).
Quote- Demons eating people. What? Since, when did this happen? Yeah, yeah I know. This is something I probably should have known since, Season 1, but it was never really touched upon til now. I though they just liked to kill us. And they pretty much make us feel good about these demons, and just ignore that they pretty much devour human beings. :wth:
Why should it be that surprising? Well, to be fair, a bunch of other shonen featured demons that could eat humans, and I'm pretty sure you could find instances of that in some common Japanese mythology, so you have to remember that for a Japanese audience, none of this would come off as anything out of the ordinary on the whole. Plus, there were always instances of demons that did stuff that no other demons did, like that one demon from the beginning of the series who ate the souls of children.
As for Raizen, though, they made it kind of clear that it was something that his "species" or "kind" specifically did. It never said anywhere that all demons eat humans. However, just like different species of animals would have different things they eat in their diets, its not so hard to believe that the same would apply to different types of demons. In fact, it never mentioned that Yomi or Mokuro ate humans, because they didn't. Its just something that Raizen did before, and even then he gave it up after falling in love with someone from the human world. If you stop to think about it, that was probably the only point of Togashi even putting that in. He wanted to show Raizen's resolve to give up something necessary for him to live after having a life-changing encounter with a human. In that context it does make sense, IMO.
QuoteWhich makes me. Does that mean characters we all know and love like the Dark Tournament participants, Hiei, and Kurama did, or still do the same thing? :whuh:
No, because as I have explained above, and as the series explained, only some species of demons do that, and Raizen is one of the only few demons we saw who ate humans.
Anyways, my complaint about the Three Kings arc is the 2nd half. Ending it with a tournament was just stupid, and also the ending was rushed, and it was clear that Togashi didn't have his heart in the series anymore by that point in time. They honestly should have just let him end it after Chapter Black if he really wanted to, though I still say that the Three Kings arc had potential if it were handled better. I do agree that its a weaker arc that both the Chapter Black and Dark Tournament, but I'd also argue that it had the most potential out of all 3 of them to be the most interesting one.
When I think about it, I have one big complaint of my own that I wonder what other people might think about.
It has to do with the death of Genkai. Right before the final act of the DT arc, there is a brilliantly done episode in which Genkai gets killed by Toguro. It re-watched it recently and it was handled rather excellently in the anime and all that good stuff, but what kind of ruins the emotional impact that it had on me the first time that I watched it was knowing that Genkai would be brought back to life. Now, to be fair, this lead to her playing a fairly significant part in the Chapter Black arc, and she was still a great character to have around, but overall I still feel that this is the most disappointing thing the series has ever done for me (and there aren't a lot of instances like this, so I can generally forgive this one to some extent). Still, I really think it would have been for the better if Genkai had been killed off for good in the DT arc. It would have been interesting to see how Yusuke functioned on his own without his teacher later in in the Chapter Black arc, IMO. I think Togashi may have realized this to some extent, because he certainly doesn't cop-out when it comes to Hunter X Hunter in terms of characters getting killed off (though, most of the time he only kills off the minor ones). Also, to be fair, in the manga Genkai does at least pass away at the very end of the series (only off-panel, though). Still, I think it actually would have worked in the series's favor, and even positively effect Genkai's character in some ways, if she had died for real.
What do other people think about this?
Genkai was beneficial to Chapter Black, but from what I can recall, didn't do much for the final arc. But even then, I agree that seeing how Yusuke handled CB without her would have been a very interesting story point.
I don't think the episode where she died lost too much of it's power when you consider that she comes back to life later, since it was done poignantly enough. I think it's kind of like a couple of Disney deaths, in which even though you know that they'll come back to life after that, you've just become so invested in the characters that seeing them die to begin with is sad.
Granted, unlike say Snow White or the Beast, it's not as expected for Genkai to come back to life, but that makes her return even more surprising, because you would expect her life to end there, considering her age. That's why I think the revival aspect works since Togashi used it, but at the same time I agree with your points that killing her off would work as well.
Well, as a kid I was generally happy to see her come back since she was just a great character, and like I said, she was important during the Chapter Black arc. I also didn't mean to say that I felt her death scene was completely ruined by the knowledge of her coming back to life afterward (I re-watched the episode and it still has a big impact on me, and of course helps Yusuke further develop his character), but just that it wasn't quite as big of an impact on me as it once was. It was still probably one of my favorite anime death scenes to be honest, though (I wouldn't rank it in that one list that I was planning, though, because the rule is that the character cannot have come back to life).
I think what kind of makes it a little disappointing for me, though, is that nobody important dying in the DT arc kind of made Toguro feel a lot less threatening than he really could have been. But, to be fair, that has to do with Toguro's character himself, as it was shown by the end of the series that he really just wanted to be beaten by Yusuke the whole time. Deep down he wanted to be proven wrong, and see Genkai's point from all those years ago proven right, if only to redeem himself in some way. That's certainly a very interesting thing for a villain to feel when he really is ashamed of what he did on the inside.
Yeah, I agree with you completely. In hindsight, that part of Toguro's character was very effective.
Quote from: Aurora on April 24, 2011, 11:28:13 AM
- And not really a flaw, but Sensui knowing that Koenma would bring Gamemaster to life thus, defeating his little pacifier? A bit of a stretch for me. How did he know Koenma wouldn't have been "Meh, fuck it!". Whatever.
:D :D :D :D :D :D I can't stop laughing!
Quote from: gunswordfist on April 27, 2011, 07:14:49 PM
Quote from: Aurora on April 24, 2011, 11:28:13 AM
- And not really a flaw, but Sensui knowing that Koenma would bring Gamemaster to life thus, defeating his little pacifier? A bit of a stretch for me. How did he know Koenma wouldn't have been "Meh, fuck it!". Whatever.
:D :D :D :D :D :D I can't stop laughing!
Erm.....ok. :o
Nice responses there Ensatsu-ken. I can buy your answers for the most part. I still don't like how almost every single being in demon world steadily became Yusuke's biggest fans, Hiei's final fight was also a disappointment. He "freed" Mukoro's woeful bondage from her past when she was a former slave. That's nice and all, but I also would have loved to see Hiei take Mukoro to her limits, had he been a much stronger foe. Ok, that's a bit of shallow reason, but damn it didn't we all wanted a longer battle? :> Also I can't hate any of demons. None of them are so cold-hearted for me to go "BOO!" so, no real reason to dislike them.
Also no Kuwabara? I like it. :sly: I really do.
By chance if he happen to be in this season what do any of you think could have been done with the character at this point?
Just need 3 more episodes so, I got just Yomi vs Yusuke, and the final episode.
Quote from: Aurora on April 30, 2011, 11:07:59 AM
Nice responses there Ensatsu-ken. I can buy your answers for the most part. I still don't like how almost every single being in demon world steadily became Yusuke's biggest fans, Hiei's final fight was also a disappointment. He "freed" Mukoro's woeful bondage from her past when she was a former slave. That's nice and all, but I also would have loved to see Hiei take Mukoro to her limits, had he been a much stronger foe. Ok, that's a bit of shallow reason, but damn it didn't we all wanted a longer battle?
Heh, The funny thing is that we should probably be thankful that we even got that fight in the first place, among other ones. Believe it or not that was only added in the anime, and was non-existent in the manga because of how rushed the ending was. So, yeah, the anime version of the tournament is actually the "long" version of it, believe it or not. Props to the team of writers for the series for adding in all of that material and not having it come off as complete garbage. Its nowhere close to the greatness you would normally expect from this series, but its actually pretty impressive that it didn't turn out bad, either, considering just how much could go wrong with the writers taking things into their own hands instead of strictly following the manga. In this case it all felt very necessary, though.
QuoteAlso no Kuwabara? I like it. :sly: I really do.
:wth: :anger:
QuoteBy chance if he happen to be in this season what do any of you think could have been done with the character at this point?
To be honest, if he could have done anything in the final season then he would have been there. Its as simple as that. Its just that Togashi designed an arc in which Kuwabara would be completely useless, as it didn't even involve him, anyways. I do kind of like how he wanted to focus on having a normal life and started seriously studying, and stuff. I wouldn't have minded a few scenes going back to him in the human world showing him trying to adapt back to a normal style of living while also feeling a little emotionally left out for not being able to get in on the action in Demon World, and wondering how the rest of the group is doing. It would make for an interesting little touch, IMO. Then again, I wouldn't mind a half-assed excuse to get him into the arc, as that may have been its biggest problem aside from being rushed. Yu Yu Hakusho simply just doesn't feel quite like it should without the entire gang together, and especially if its Kuwabara that's missing, since like him or not he's the character that gives the group its "heart," IMO.
QuoteJust need 3 more episodes so, I got just Yomi vs Yusuke, and the final episode.
I hope you enjoy it. Once again, this fight was pretty much skipped and only referenced in the manga, but the anime went through the trouble of writing out an entire fight between the 2, and there really was a lot of effort and emotion put into this battle, IMO. Its by no means the best battle in the series (obviously since Togashi didn't write it), but it has just as much entertainment value and intensity to it that you'd expect out of this series's better fights.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 30, 2011, 01:04:25 PM
:wth: :anger:
Haha, I'm no Kuwabara hater. I like the guy, but he was never one of my favorites either. And after the Dark Torunament they didn't really have him do much.
Erm....I mean!
BWUHHHHAHAHAHAHA! DEAL WITH IT BITCH! :devil: :blush: :humhumhum:
QuoteJust need 3 more episodes so, I got just Yomi vs Yusuke, and the final episode.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 30, 2011, 01:04:25 PMI hope you enjoy it. Once again, this fight was pretty much skipped and only referenced in the manga, but the anime went through the trouble of writing out an entire fight between the 2, and there really was a lot of effort and emotion put into this battle, IMO. Its by no means the best battle in the series (obviously since Togashi didn't write it), but it has just as much entertainment value and intensity to it that you'd expect out of this series's better fights.
Thank you! I can't wait to see them tomorrow! :thumbup:
.......Prick. :awesome: Oops did that come out. Sometimes I just can't control myself. :??:
Yeah, I'm looking for a fight! :whip: :P
And in all seriousness I'm just trying to get a rise out of you. I hope Guns doesn't mind. ;D
Pshhhh...You're leagues to low in your insult level to get a rise out of me. Anyone who knows me well enough knows that the only way to do that is to insult the most sacred game in existence. I have 0 tolerance for that, but just about anything else I just treat the other person's opinion as inferior to my own, anyways, since I am naturally a superior being to all else and therefore my opinion is fact and yours is false. That's all there is to it. :sly:
Damn it! :-[ ;D
Sacred game? Meh. Btw, you the same Ensatsu-ken from tv.com right? Yeah, it's me Envy2000. I don't know if you remember me. We usual communicated through pm.
I'll get to you someday you rascal! :happytime: :thinkin: SOMEHOW!
Hmmmm....Sorry to say, but there are dozens of people from TV.com who I don't remember. The name "Envy" rings a bell, though. :>
Speaking of TV.com, I looked back on it the other day for old times sake and checked out the animation forum....I lol'd when I realized that more than half the threads on it were from years ago when I was still posting on that site, and that there were about 3 or 4 new posts for most of them....since I had last checked out the site 3 years ago. :D
God, it makes me so happy to see how terrible that site is doing since it deserves it being the piece of shit that it became back when I finally decided to leave it. ;)
FUNimation put up this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfbCzQ5fq9A&feature=feedu) video comparing the image quality of the new Blu-Ray re-mastering of season 1 to the older DVD sets. Well, to be honest dated animation will always be dated, so the series still clearly shows its age in how old it looks, but I have to admit that the more defined coloring-scheme in the remastered edition looks a lot better than what I have on my DVDs (that, and it can also actually be played on wide-screen). Its also confirmed that its from the Japanese sets, so its not like FUNi pulled the same shit that they did with orange-brick DBZ sets. Still, I doubt that I'll ever get these releases since I already own 3/4 of the show on DVD, and also because I still don't have a Blu-Ray player, anyways.
They could do the Disney strategy of packing the DVDs with the Blu-ray, but nah more production costs they are spending to hang onto those Panty animes.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on May 01, 2011, 02:40:47 AM
Hmmmm....Sorry to say, but there are dozens of people from TV.com who I don't remember. The name "Envy" rings a bell, though. :>
WHY I OUTTA! >:(
Yeah, we usual discussed Halo canon and that type of stuff.
Just saw the last 3 episodes now and my reactions- :SHOCK: :huh: :D ;D :) :P :cry:
Yomi vs Yusuke was a pretty decent fight, and as for the last episode. Well, just check my last reaction. I has problems of course, but meh I can deal with it. I'll just post them later.
As much as I love Smile Bomb, I have to say I prefer the second opening animation for the song more. Not because it's very Chapter Black centered (as that was when it was used), but because it feels more general for the tone of the whole series. The first intro animation is good, but I think the second is just way better.
Oh yeah, I started watching the show again. :thumbup:
I like the second OP a great deal myself, but "Smile Bomb" is still untoppable for me. I pretty much told you why I love it the other night.
How far along are you right now?
Awesome OP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oEeMV0Gbwc&feature=related)
I watched all the way up to the start of the Dark Tournament so far. Keeping track, the longest fight so far was Yusuke Vs. Suzaku and that was three episodes long (between much else going on), and it is amazing how fast and brisk the pace is kept with no real filler in sight.
Quote from: Avaitor on May 09, 2011, 08:57:04 PM
I like the second OP a great deal myself, but "Smile Bomb" is still untoppable for me. I pretty much told you why I love it the other night.
Well, the 2nd opening IS Smile Bomb. Its the same exact song but just with different animation, and I do personally agree with Desensitized that I prefer the 2nd animation set, if only because it actually has Sensui in it. :)
Yeah, as for YYH, its so strange how I have literally watched every episode at least a dozen times each by now (and believe me, that's no exaggeration) and yet I still haven't burned myself out on the series (granted that, I always alternate between the sub and the dub now, though I still prefer the dub on the whole, even with its inaccuracies and added jokes, which don't happen as often as some sub elitists would claim).
The only truly weak points of the series that I would call bad would be the Saint Beasts arc (which was a derivative as you could possibly get for a shonen arc) and the Team Dr. Ichigaki part of the Dark Tournament. Other than that, just about every other part of the series is consistently good up until the last tournament (and even that wasn't terrible).
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F30.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_l9pj2b6iNs1qzf7v1o1_500.jpg&hash=9ceef6721e4b59c29788de032efd236cb707dc95)
I knew that... kinda, but it's been a sorta hectic night for me. But yeah, I like both OP clips fine, but I might prefer the second ever so slightly.
I like that it kept a consistent OP for the whole series. That never happens anymore for anime.
But yeah, the Saint Beasts was pretty generic as a whole, though since it was the first real appearance of Hiei and Kurama as allies and Kuwabara starting to reach his potential it is fun to watch.
Though one question. What rank are the Saint Beasts? Throughout watching it, they kept calling them really powerful, but since they obviously couldn't touch Toguro or his team in power (in fact I think Hiei makes mention of Touya outclassing Seiryu, and Touya isn't even close to team Toguro) and Yusuke and Kuwabara had quite the tough struggle against them. Would they be lower B rank?
I dunno why I'm asking, I guess I'm just curious at how the other early villains stack up to the remainder.
Well, both Koenma and Kurama mentioned that back before the Dark Tournament began Hiei was at the level of a D class demon (though, keep in mind that he used to be of a higher class until he got the Jagan Eye implanted in him, which drained him of most of his energy causing him to have to build his power back up from scratch), and naturally Kurama would have been around the same general level. While I don't believe that there were any official rankings for the Saint Beasts, most fans pretty much agree that the Saint Beasts were of the lower to mid C-class level (with Suzaku being the strongest among them, obviously). I find this to be a little odd, though, and can't completely agree with it myself given how easily Seiryu was defeated, but its possible that Hiei and the others may have also just been lower C-class demons by that point in time (it would especially make sense for Yusuke to be around that level of strength since he had just undergone some training with Genkai).
In terms of consistency, though, you shouldn't go too much by what anyone said in the Spirit Detective arc. Back then its obvious that Togashi didn't have things well planned out and changed things along as the series progressed. Most of the consistent information starts from the Dark Tournament arc and goes onward from there.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on May 09, 2011, 09:37:59 PM
Well, both Koenma and Kurama mentioned that back before the Dark Tournament began Hiei was at the level of a D class demon (though, keep in mind that he used to be of a higher class until he got the Jagan Eye implanted in him, which drained him of most of his energy causing him to have to build his power back up from scratch), and naturally Kurama would have been around the same general level. While I don't believe that there were any official rankings for the Saint Beasts, most fans pretty much agree that the Saint Beasts were of the lower to mid C-class level (with Suzaku being the strongest among them, obviously). I find this to be a little odd, though, and can't completely agree with it myself given how easily Seiryu was defeated, but its possible that Hiei and the others may have also just been lower C-class demons by that point in time (it would especially make sense for Yusuke to be around that level of strength since he had just undergone some training with Genkai).
In terms of consistency, though, you shouldn't go too much by what anyone said in the Spirit Detective arc. Back then its obvious that Togashi didn't have things well planned out and changed things along as the series progressed. Most of the consistent information starts from the Dark Tournament arc and goes onward from there.
I get what you mean, but watching it again, I do spot some things that caught my eye about the Saint Beasts. The Saint Beasts were not (except Suzaku, clearly) physically much stronger than someone like Rando, but they had special powers that gave them the edge in battle. Genbu could form into rock to avoid mortal blows, Byakko could absorb energy, and Seiryu could freeze anything within a split second. None of them were traditionally strong other than Suzaku, they all relied on powers to do their work for them which is why I was curious at what their overall rank would be considered.
Kurama only got hurt because he was sloppy and Hiei didn't have much trouble at all, which lead me to believe that outside of their gimmicks, they weren't as strong as someone like Rando or anyone from the early Dark Tournament rounds. Sort of like how ranks didn't matter in Chapter Black because of territories, I assumed they would be skewed here too.
The only other part that really struck me was how all of Toguro's men in the Rescue Yukina arc were rather weak. Or maybe that's because Yusuke and Kuwabara improved so much.
Toguro implied that he purposely got some relatively weak guys in order to test Yusuke's strength to see if he had any potential and if he was even worth fighting. Even though he hadn't met Yusuke yet, he had claimed to have heard rumors about him ever since the Rando and Saint Beasts incidents, and at least knew what a Spirit Detective was and that Yusuke was the new Spirit Detective around. Keep in mind that he's the guy who would be ecstatic at the thought of someone with even enough potential to eventually come to his level of strength, so its more like he wanted to see if Yusuke was all that the rumors claimed that he was. Also, while it wasn't necessarily implied, you could say that he would also have been aware of Genkai being Yusuke's teacher back then, too, seeing as how he knew that he defeated Rando which only took place at Genkai's tournament to decide who her student would be, so that would also make sense as to why he wanted to test Yusuke out.
As for why he chose weak demons to begin with, aside from testing Yusuke (which admittedly isn't much of a test if even he admits that they are weak), it probably also could have just been to give Tarukane a little added incentive to higher him since they worked under him, and Tarukane probably wouldn't believe that just 2 guys would be enough to keep Yukina from being rescued given how ignorant he was of the power of demons and such.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG7X7sp_22s&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG7X7sp_22s&feature=player_embedded)
Yuyu Hakusho KAI! :P
Rewatching everything up to the end of the Dark Tournament, I have to say that while the DT is undoubtedly a better arc as a whole, I still preferred watching the Spirit Detective arc as a whole even if the Maze Beast arc was a bit too long in the tooth (DIE ALREADY BYAKKO) I was just more interested in the story at that point.
It's still a great arc, but I do think as a whole I find the first arc more engaging.
Quote from: Aurora on May 13, 2011, 02:48:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG7X7sp_22s&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG7X7sp_22s&feature=player_embedded)
Yuyu Hakusho KAI! :P
Heh, Saw that earlier today myself. This is basically why FUNimation is still surviving as an anime distributor compared to companies like Geneon and various others, they don't just half-ass their releases and they actually put a lot of effort into their products and now have quite a talented VA pool. Even though they are only re-recording a few lines from various minor characters throughout the entire series, it'd still be interesting to see just to hear the improved voice-acting quality. I mean, Justin Cook did say that they have completely re-recorded Sniper's lines and a good deal of Suzuki's, so I'd definitely be up for hearing what that sounds like in comparison to the old dub (granted that this IS still the old dub, except with a few minor replacements).
Quote from: Desensitized on May 13, 2011, 03:11:33 PM
Rewatching everything up to the end of the Dark Tournament, I have to say that while the DT is undoubtedly a better arc as a whole, I still preferred watching the Spirit Detective arc as a whole even if the Maze Beast arc was a bit too long in the tooth (DIE ALREADY BYAKKO) I was just more interested in the story at that point.
It's still a great arc, but I do think as a whole I find the first arc more engaging.
Eh, To be honest I feel kind of the opposite. There are some individual parts of the Spirit Detective arc that I like quite a lot, and maybe more than a lot of great moments from the DT arc, but on the whole I prefer the DT arc as aside from the Team Ichigaki fights, it was more consistent in quality. I do really like the arc with Yusuke as a Ghost as its both a unique and very strong opening to the series, but then the arc after that is pretty standard and is only useful in introducing Hiei and Kurama, and then Genkai's tournament arc after that is OK, but still kind of average by the series's later standards. The Saint Beasts arc is probably my leas favorite self-contained arc in YYH, with the exception of the first 2 episodes just for having Hiei and Kurama team up with Yusuke and Kuwabara for the first time, which is admittedly still pretty cool. After that is the Rescue Yukina arc, which I'd say is definitely the high point of the Spirit Detective arc (aside from the first few episodes which to me stand on their own since they are so different from any other part of the series, but in a very good way), and serves as a really nice transition into the Dark Tournament arc. Overall I'd say that the Spirit Detective arc is pretty good for a first season compared to how lackluster most shonen series are in their first seasons on the whole, but I definitely felt that the Dark Tournament arc was more enjoyable and kept me watching more, if only because it just felt like there was more at stake in how Yusuke and his teams were constantly outlcassed by most of their opponents and really had to think up some really clever strategies in order to survive the fights. I also felt that it was more effective with its emotional moments by that point in time.
Of course, what came after that blew anything the series had previous done out of the water, and that isn't to say that it makes them seem bad in comparison (that's impossible, because YYH was still an extremely great series to me even before I saw the Chapter Black arc), but when I saw how much darker and more plot-oriented the series really got by the time Sensui stepped into the picture, I didn't find myself missing the fight-heavy arcs from before. Togashi is clearly just as good at telling an extremely interesting story with really memorable villains as he is at constructing intense and strategic fights.
I can't for the life of me understand those fans who think that the series plummeted downhill in quality after the Dark Tournament arc. My guess is that they are just those annoying action-hungry shonen fans that don't really even care for the series's more intelligent execution of traditional shonen-themed stories, and instead just like it for the most generic reasons that they like every other generic shonen out there. There is absolutely nothing that the Chapter Black arc does that is inferior to anything that the previous arcs did, or the proceeding arc for that matter. Its quite clearly the series's high point, and I don't really see how that is even debatable at all.
Well yeah, I agree that the Dark Tournament arc is better than the Spirit Detective arc, I just somehow found myself more engaged in the latter. The Dark Tournament has a lot of great moments (The team Masho fight is my personal highlight) and is a bit long in the tooth compared to every other arc, but as far as tournament arcs go it's probably the best there is.
But they should have just had Hiei fight everyone. He never loses! :D
I loved the series up to the end of the Dark Tournament, but Chapter Black is when it became an all time favorite for me. I really wouldn't have had any qualms with it ending there, either. Not to say the last arc was anything bad, but if he actually fleshed it out (instead of ending it because he was tired) it probably could have matched up to the rest of the series, but ends up falling a bit short because it didn't get the attention it deserved.
The series is still a blast to watch.
Well after seeing the whole thing I have to say my biggest complaints about the final season are:
- No huge disastrous threat against the Living and/or Spirit Worlds.
- No reasons to dislike any of the demons. I didn't want one-dimensional cliche enemies, but if there's no one to really dislike then whats the sense rooting for our 3 heroes if there's no one to dislike?
Actually, there was a threat. The Three Kingdoms of the Demon World were on the brink of war, and while it wouldn't have been a problem for Spirit World and the Human World if either Raizen's or Mukuro's sides had one, Koenma stated that it would be a big problem if Yomi had one since he planned to merge the Demon and Human realms together, not understanding that humans (most of whom weren't even aware of the existence of demons) were not ready for such a merge to take place. It basically would have allowed wild and monstrous S class demons to roam freely around the human world and wreck havoc and cause widespread chaos and panic. So, yeah, I'd say that's a pretty big threat if you think about it. Yusuke designed the tournament as a more peaceful way to find a resolution and get a unified leader for Demon World, which is my personal problem with the arc since it doesn't seem the least bit believable that anyone would agree to those conditions.
Quote from: Desensitized on May 09, 2011, 08:32:44 PM
As much as I love Smile Bomb, I have to say I prefer the second opening animation for the song more. Not because it's very Chapter Black centered (as that was when it was used), but because it feels more general for the tone of the whole series. The first intro animation is good, but I think the second is just way better.
Oh yeah, I started watching the show again. :thumbup:
Shit, either I forgot that Chapter Black intro or the DVDs never had it. Either way, Smile Bomb can't be beat. Watching Kurama power up was the business when I was 14!
Quote from: Desensitized on May 09, 2011, 09:52:20 PM
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on May 09, 2011, 09:37:59 PM
Well, both Koenma and Kurama mentioned that back before the Dark Tournament began Hiei was at the level of a D class demon (though, keep in mind that he used to be of a higher class until he got the Jagan Eye implanted in him, which drained him of most of his energy causing him to have to build his power back up from scratch), and naturally Kurama would have been around the same general level. While I don't believe that there were any official rankings for the Saint Beasts, most fans pretty much agree that the Saint Beasts were of the lower to mid C-class level (with Suzaku being the strongest among them, obviously). I find this to be a little odd, though, and can't completely agree with it myself given how easily Seiryu was defeated, but its possible that Hiei and the others may have also just been lower C-class demons by that point in time (it would especially make sense for Yusuke to be around that level of strength since he had just undergone some training with Genkai).
In terms of consistency, though, you shouldn't go too much by what anyone said in the Spirit Detective arc. Back then its obvious that Togashi didn't have things well planned out and changed things along as the series progressed. Most of the consistent information starts from the Dark Tournament arc and goes onward from there.
I get what you mean, but watching it again, I do spot some things that caught my eye about the Saint Beasts. The Saint Beasts were not (except Suzaku, clearly) physically much stronger than someone like Rando, but they had special powers that gave them the edge in battle. Genbu could form into rock to avoid mortal blows, Byakko could absorb energy, and Seiryu could freeze anything within a split second. None of them were traditionally strong other than Suzaku, they all relied on powers to do their work for them which is why I was curious at what their overall rank would be considered.
Kurama only got hurt because he was sloppy and Hiei didn't have much trouble at all, which lead me to believe that outside of their gimmicks, they weren't as strong as someone like Rando or anyone from the early Dark Tournament rounds. Sort of like how ranks didn't matter in Chapter Black because of territories, I assumed they would be skewed here too.
The only other part that really struck me was how all of Toguro's men in the Rescue Yukina arc were rather weak. Or maybe that's because Yusuke and Kuwabara improved so much.
How strong Rando is has confused me for like 10 years. Hmmm, I think it might have been because of how powerful his spirit gun was and how Yusuke got lucky in their fight. Maybe mainly because Rando claimed his spirit gun was so many times better than Yusuke's. Also, another head scratcher, the guy with the full hand spiritgun. I think he said he could do that an infinite number of times. And again, another claim about how much stronger it is than Yusuke's. Uh..what? Outside of Hiei attacking Kayko those are the things that confused me the most in the series.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on May 13, 2011, 03:42:44 PM
Quote from: Desensitized on May 13, 2011, 03:11:33 PM
Rewatching everything up to the end of the Dark Tournament, I have to say that while the DT is undoubtedly a better arc as a whole, I still preferred watching the Spirit Detective arc as a whole even if the Maze Beast arc was a bit too long in the tooth (DIE ALREADY BYAKKO) I was just more interested in the story at that point.
It's still a great arc, but I do think as a whole I find the first arc more engaging.
Eh, To be honest I feel kind of the opposite. There are some individual parts of the Spirit Detective arc that I like quite a lot, and maybe more than a lot of great moments from the DT arc, but on the whole I prefer the DT arc as aside from the Team Ichigaki fights, it was more consistent in quality. I do really like the arc with Yusuke as a Ghost as its both a unique and very strong opening to the series, but then the arc after that is pretty standard and is only useful in introducing Hiei and Kurama, and then Genkai's tournament arc after that is OK, but still kind of average by the series's later standards. The Saint Beasts arc is probably my leas favorite self-contained arc in YYH, with the exception of the first 2 episodes just for having Hiei and Kurama team up with Yusuke and Kuwabara for the first time, which is admittedly still pretty cool. After that is the Rescue Yukina arc, which I'd say is definitely the high point of the Spirit Detective arc (aside from the first few episodes which to me stand on their own since they are so different from any other part of the series, but in a very good way), and serves as a really nice transition into the Dark Tournament arc. Overall I'd say that the Spirit Detective arc is pretty good for a first season compared to how lackluster most shonen series are in their first seasons on the whole, but I definitely felt that the Dark Tournament arc was more enjoyable and kept me watching more, if only because it just felt like there was more at stake in how Yusuke and his teams were constantly outlcassed by most of their opponents and really had to think up some really clever strategies in order to survive the fights. I also felt that it was more effective with its emotional moments by that point in time.
Of course, what came after that blew anything the series had previous done out of the water, and that isn't to say that it makes them seem bad in comparison (that's impossible, because YYH was still an extremely great series to me even before I saw the Chapter Black arc), but when I saw how much darker and more plot-oriented the series really got by the time Sensui stepped into the picture, I didn't find myself missing the fight-heavy arcs from before. Togashi is clearly just as good at telling an extremely interesting story with really memorable villains as he is at constructing intense and strategic fights.
I can't for the life of me understand those fans who think that the series plummeted downhill in quality after the Dark Tournament arc. My guess is that they are just those annoying action-hungry shonen fans that don't really even care for the series's more intelligent execution of traditional shonen-themed stories, and instead just like it for the most generic reasons that they like every other generic shonen out there. There is absolutely nothing that the Chapter Black arc does that is inferior to anything that the previous arcs did, or the proceeding arc for that matter. Its quite clearly the series's high point, and I don't really see how that is even debatable at all.
I agree that Dark Tournament is better than Spirit Detective (hmm, in this thread is the first time I've heard all the early arcs being considered to be apart of Spirit Detective. I thought the arc before Genkai's tournament was just called that) Anyway, I disagree about everything else though. Dark Tournament is of course my favorite arc ever ever ever ever. I think Genkai's Tournament is CLEARLY the best out of Saint Beasts and Rescue Yukina and I liked the Saint Beasts' arc more than Rescue Yukina (I did admittedly miss some episodes, I think just when they fought that bald guy's team though)
Quote from: Aurora on May 13, 2011, 06:02:52 PM
Well after seeing the whole thing I have to say my biggest complaints about the final season are:
- No huge disastrous threat against the Living and/or Spirit Worlds.
- No reasons to dislike any of the demons. I didn't want one-dimensional cliche enemies, but if there's no one to really dislike then whats the sense rooting for our 3 heroes if there's no one to dislike?
Rewatch Dark Tournament. They had some dicks in it like that arm blade guy that threatened Kurama's freaking mom and the shinobi or whatever team leader that who's ass Kuwabara kicked (funny, I actually missed that episode. I have quite a few episodes to see.)
I think they wanted to keep the vibe of the earth being secretly saved and not full on "OH MY GOD!1 OMG!1 DEMONS RUNNING THROUGH THE STREETS" kind of shit.
Quote from: gunswordfist on May 14, 2011, 12:05:52 AM
Rewatch Dark Tournament. They had some dicks in it like that arm blade guy that threatened Kurama's freaking mom and the shinobi or whatever team leader that who's ass Kuwabara kicked (funny, I actually missed that episode. I have quite a few episodes to see.)
I think they wanted to keep the vibe of the earth being secretly saved and not full on "OH MY GOD!1 OMG!1 DEMONS RUNNING THROUGH THE STREETS" kind of shit.
Uh....He's talking about the Three Kings arc, not the Dark Tournament arc. :oo:
I think that's why I would have preferred him either being clearer on ranks or just not including them. Toguro is extra strong because of how his body was created and Sensui because of Sacred Energy, but everyone else got their edge from their powers and how they used them. In that way, that's why I don't think the ranks are that important outside of a handful of characters. Because otherwise Yusuke beating Hiei in the SD arc makes no sense if he's declared D rank by the DT. That would make him like an E, which is a ridiculous thought.
Rando, judging from how Yusuke won by dumb luck and nothing more, makes me think he would be around a C. Yusuke couldn't do anything to him at all, and if Hiei was a D and was dropped by one spirit gun blast, then he clearly couldn't be a D with the level of power he put out.
Ugh, I gotta stop talking ranks. They kind of annoy me. Or we can just assume Spirit World only makes them when they know the demon's true potential, which makes a heck of a lot more sense.
To me I always thought:
Rando- Low Level C Class
First 3 Saint Beasts- D classes
Suzaku: Low level C class
Most of the Dark torunament participants that Team Urameshi fought: Low level C classes to High level C class (possibly even low level B).
Team Toguro- Karasu and Bui were Mid level B's it seems, and possibly also Elder Toguro? Younger was of course High level B.
Sensui- Low Level S class
And pretty much the rest of the last saga was A classes and mid-level to high level S classes.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on May 13, 2011, 10:55:17 PM
Actually, there was a threat. The Three Kingdoms of the Demon World were on the brink of war, and while it wouldn't have been a problem for Spirit World and the Human World if either Raizen's or Mukuro's sides had one, Koenma stated that it would be a big problem if Yomi had one since he planned to merge the Demon and Human realms together, not understanding that humans (most of whom weren't even aware of the existence of demons) were not ready for such a merge to take place. It basically would have allowed wild and monstrous S class demons to roam freely around the human world and wreck havoc and cause widespread chaos and panic. So, yeah, I'd say that's a pretty big threat if you think about it. Yusuke designed the tournament as a more peaceful way to find a resolution and get a unified leader for Demon World, which is my personal problem with the arc since it doesn't seem the least bit believable that anyone would agree to those conditions.
Yeah, thats another problem on the last saga for me. It's probably just me but I never had the notion of "OMG YUSUKE BETTER OWN TIZ OR THE LIVING WORL IS FOOOKED!". I just didn't. It was still aninteresting saga, and the Torunament itself was interesting and well done even if...well you know. Like I said the last battle was actually really good. And I feel this season really doesn't deserve some of the hate it gets.
Ok my posts are getting fucked up now. :-o Is this a glitch or maybe something is wrong with my computer. >:(
Nevermind fixed!
Quote from: Aurora on May 14, 2011, 12:38:07 AM
To me I always thought:
Rando- Low Level C Class
First 3 Saint Beasts- D classes
Suzaku: Low level C class
Most of the Dark torunament participants that Team Urameshi fought: Low level C classes to High level C class (possibly even low level B).
Team Toguro- Karasu and Bui were Mid level B's it seems, and possibly also Elder Toguro? Younger was of course High level B.
Sensui- Low Level S class
And pretty much the rest of the last saga was A classes and mid-level to high level S classes.
That seems about right to me. Yusuke was clobbering E and D classers but had major trouble against Gouki, Rando, and Suzaku (and only beat Rando based on dumb luck, he couldn't even scratch his real form) and after his DT training (where he didn't slack off) was probably around mid C and the boost from the spirit wave let him take on Toguro head on.
But the ranks aren't like DBZ's power levels, attacks don't just stop maiming higher levels a certain class (Toguro was able to heal, even though a weakened Genkai almost blew off his arm) so I'd say the power difference is only real noticeable in how their skills are implemented in battle.
I don't really know why I'm trying to understand the ranking system, but outside of Hiei (which I still think Koenma was wrong on) they do make sense if you try to think on them harder than you probably should.
Quote from: Desensitized on May 14, 2011, 12:20:47 AM
I think that's why I would have preferred him either being clearer on ranks or just not including them. Toguro is extra strong because of how his body was created and Sensui because of Sacred Energy, but everyone else got their edge from their powers and how they used them. In that way, that's why I don't think the ranks are that important outside of a handful of characters. Because otherwise Yusuke beating Hiei in the SD arc makes no sense if he's declared D rank by the DT. That would make him like an E, which is a ridiculous thought.
Rando, judging from how Yusuke won by dumb luck and nothing more, makes me think he would be around a C. Yusuke couldn't do anything to him at all, and if Hiei was a D and was dropped by one spirit gun blast, then he clearly couldn't be a D with the level of power he put out.
Ugh, I gotta stop talking ranks. They kind of annoy me. Or we can just assume Spirit World only makes them when they know the demon's true potential, which makes a heck of a lot more sense.
Yeah, I remember Rando being pretty much invincible.
Hmmm, I have to check on Hiei's progress in the beginning of DT (I missed his first fight, yeah I suck) I assumed he grew stronger over some period of time but once I think about it, I have no freaking clue when that could have been
@ Aurora, I have no clue what any pre-Team Toguro demon's class could have been. I m though pretty much 100% sure that Karsu and Bui were mid B class...but Hiei throws another monkey wrench in that. Koenma said he was mid B and he made Bui look useless at the end of their fight. Hell, beginning too. How Karasu died makes it hard to figure out too. That gave no clue how strong either Kurama or Karasu was. As for Elder Toguro, he might have been one of those kind of demons that are C class but has powers that make him a threat to some B class. Himetting beat by Kuwabara kind of confirms that, I guess. Sensui was definitely low level S class.
Quote from: gunswordfist on May 14, 2011, 02:29:07 AM
Quote from: Desensitized on May 14, 2011, 12:20:47 AM
I think that's why I would have preferred him either being clearer on ranks or just not including them. Toguro is extra strong because of how his body was created and Sensui because of Sacred Energy, but everyone else got their edge from their powers and how they used them. In that way, that's why I don't think the ranks are that important outside of a handful of characters. Because otherwise Yusuke beating Hiei in the SD arc makes no sense if he's declared D rank by the DT. That would make him like an E, which is a ridiculous thought.
Rando, judging from how Yusuke won by dumb luck and nothing more, makes me think he would be around a C. Yusuke couldn't do anything to him at all, and if Hiei was a D and was dropped by one spirit gun blast, then he clearly couldn't be a D with the level of power he put out.
Ugh, I gotta stop talking ranks. They kind of annoy me. Or we can just assume Spirit World only makes them when they know the demon's true potential, which makes a heck of a lot more sense.
Yeah, I remember Rando being pretty much invincible.
Hmmm, I have to check on Hiei's progress in the beginning of DT (I missed his first fight, yeah I suck) I assumed he grew stronger over some period of time but once I think about it, I have no freaking clue when that could have been
@ Aurora, I have no clue what any pre-Team Toguro demon's class could have been. I m though pretty much 100% sure that Karsu and Bui were mid B class...but Hiei throws another monkey wrench in that. Koenma said he was mid B and he made Bui look useless at the end of their fight. Hell, beginning too. How Karasu died makes it hard to figure out too. That gave no clue how strong either Kurama or Karasu was. As for Elder Toguro, he might have been one of those kind of demons that are C class but has powers that make him a threat to some B class. Himetting beat by Kuwabara kind of confirms that, I guess. Sensui was definitely low level S class.
I think it depends how long the Three Artifacts arc took place after Hiei got the Jigan Eye. I think that would explain a lot in regards to his real ability.
Justin Cook posted a Funimation Youtube video about the blu-ray
http://youtu.be/sG7X7sp_22s
Quote from: Angus on May 16, 2011, 02:56:13 PM
Justin Cook posted a Funimation Youtube video about the blu-ray
http://youtu.be/sG7X7sp_22s
Heh, Yeah, Aurora already posted the link to that video a couple of pages back. :sweat:
I also gave my thoughts on it about a page or so back, as well.
ok, cool. the long replies hid that away
While I wait for my season 3 and 4 sets to ship (Sigh, amazon) I decided to watch everything I own which is up to episode 70 - Genkai's Ruse.
I've always liked how Chapter Black started. It took the typical shonen cliche of "You're the strongest dude in the world, what could possibly phase you?" and instead of being boring and throwing in a more powerful guy to repeat the same plot, we are instantly thrown in the other direction.
In other words, the very first guy we fight after this:
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.comicvine.com%2Fuploads%2F0%2F6342%2F157707-8509-toguro-ototo_large.png&hash=8f16402806254ca951fee708c503dcf0be980784)
Is him:
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.behindthevoiceactors.com%2F_img%2Fchars%2Fchar_2935.jpg&hash=24d2d396491435888f01754624e20c3ce8bcf189)
Seems lame, huh? Yet he manages to beat both Hiei and Kuwabara and captures Botan as well, almost netting Kurama on top of it. All of this, and he is considerably weaker than all of them by far. Hell, Yusuke is captured pretty easily himself, and could have been killed within seconds had his opponents been malicious. This is quite the interesting shift in tone from the Dark Tournament's "Strength is everything" motif where in Chapter Black not thinking ahead can lead to death in just as gruesome a manner.
The last episode I watched in my sets include Genkai teaching them all this very important lesson, just before they learn the true threat ahead of them.
It takes the tactics based battling from the early SD arc and puts them on steroids, not just in action, but in the plot which tells you just how different this will be from everything else you've seen so far.
You pretty much nailed my own thoughts down on the beginning of the Chapter Black arc. The first time I was watching this when it aired on Toonami, I realized the brilliant thing about it was that I had no idea what would happen next. Sure, the Dark Tournament arc was excellent in execution and is still to this day the best tournament arc that I have seen in any shonen, but I have to admit that I never had any doubts as to how it would ultimately end (as in Yusuke would defeat Toguro). With the Chapter Black arc, as soon as I saw how radically different the shift in tone was and even the type of threat and villains were, I was immediately taken by surprise and got more excited to see each new episode week-by-week in extreme anticipation of what would happen next, and I was never once let down....until I tuned in one week to find absolutely no new episode there, or the week after that, or the week after that, until I had realized that Cartoon Network had suddenly moved the series to 5:30 AM without telling anyone and I ended up missing the final third of the CB arc. :'(
As far as the beginning goes, when it was revealed that these guys who were toying around with Yusuke and the others using this new ability called "territories," while being significantly weaker in fighting ability than any of them, were actually their allies working under Genkai to test their wits, I thought to myself: Wow, if these guys put them through so much trouble and weren't even trying to kill them, I wonder how the hell they're even going to be able to survive against actual villains utilizing these types of abilities....
Needless to say, it immediately became my favorite arc once we finally did get to the villains (especially the main one ;) ).
Haha, didn't they take it off right at the point Kazuya appeared, too? Man, that was such a piss off.
You know it's a classic arc when you have modern shonens stealing directly from it, much like Kenshin's redemption arc. It took the best aspects of the previous arcs and cranked them up to ten here. I can't wait to rewatch the rest.
Quote from: Desensitized on May 19, 2011, 06:41:04 AM
While I wait for my season 3 and 4 sets to ship (Sigh, amazon) I decided to watch everything I own which is up to episode 70 - Genkai's Ruse.
I've always liked how Chapter Black started. It took the typical shonen cliche of "You're the strongest dude in the world, what could possibly phase you?" and instead of being boring and throwing in a more powerful guy to repeat the same plot, we are instantly thrown in the other direction.
In other words, the very first guy we fight after this:
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.comicvine.com%2Fuploads%2F0%2F6342%2F157707-8509-toguro-ototo_large.png&hash=8f16402806254ca951fee708c503dcf0be980784)
Is him:
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.behindthevoiceactors.com%2F_img%2Fchars%2Fchar_2935.jpg&hash=24d2d396491435888f01754624e20c3ce8bcf189)
Seems lame, huh? Yet he manages to beat both Hiei and Kuwabara and captures Botan as well, almost netting Kurama on top of it. All of this, and he is considerably weaker than all of them by far. Hell, Yusuke is captured pretty easily himself, and could have been killed within seconds had his opponents been malicious. This is quite the interesting shift in tone from the Dark Tournament's "Strength is everything" motif where in Chapter Black not thinking ahead can lead to death in just as gruesome a manner.
The last episode I watched in my sets include Genkai teaching them all this very important lesson, just before they learn the true threat ahead of them.
It takes the tactics based battling from the early SD arc and puts them on steroids, not just in action, but in the plot which tells you just how different this will be from everything else you've seen so far.
Such a great post. I'm sure EK loved the hell out of it.
Speaking of Chapter Black, I forget. Why didn't Sensui just go Sacred Energy asses on them and beat the hell out of everybody immediately?
In fact I gotta lot of questions both dumb, and out of curiosity! When I get the chance I'll post them!
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on May 19, 2011, 11:27:34 AM
until I tuned in one week to find absolutely no new episode there, or the week after that, or the week after that, until I had realized that Cartoon Network had suddenly moved the series to 5:30 AM without telling anyone and I ended up missing the final third of the CB arc. :'(
BWUHHHAHAHAHA! :whip:
Mang, good thing I checked the schedule of Yuyu Hakusho on Friday a day before the airing of "Death of a Spirit Detective", and knew about the 5:00 a.m. change. ;D
And then I proceeded to oversleep alot and miss alot of the Three Kings Arc. D-:
But atleast, I saw the last episode! Which was incredible then and still is now. Yes, I cried then too. :'(
Quote from: Aurora on May 20, 2011, 04:46:46 PM
Speaking of Chapter Black, I forget. Why didn't Sensui just go Sacred Energy asses on them and beat the hell out of everybody immediately?
Well, only Shinobu could use the sacred energy as someone who was pure of sin, and he had to save that personality of his until the end since he was doing nothing but sinful things using both Minoru and Kazuya, neither of who could use sacred energy. Also, sacred energy boosts him up to S class, and S classes couldn't pass through the barrier to demon world (of course he ended up breaking the barrier, but either way he couldn't even make it through the tunnel/portal in an S class form until after doing that.
Actually now that you mention the hole between Living and Demon World, let me get one thing straight.
Only D and E classes could get through entirely with, A's-C's getting through here and again. But, thanks to that portal all higher A's-C's could get through without trouble. And only S-classes were left behind at home as long as the Kekai was up? Correct?
Niether that or Koenma and Yusuke/Raizen's right handman(who's name escapes at the moment) contradict each other.
Quote from: Aurora on May 20, 2011, 05:01:31 PM
Actually now that you mention the hole between Living and Demon World, let me get one thing straight.
Only D and E classes could get through entirely with, A's-C's getting through here and again. But, thanks to that portal all higher A's-C's could get through without trouble. And only S-classes were left behind at home as long as the Kekai was up? Correct?
Niether that or Koenma and Yusuke/Raizen's right handman(who's name escapes at the moment) contradict each other.
Actually, Koenma explained that the barrier was there to keep demons of B class and above out, but C and D class (I don't believe that an E call was ever even mentioned anywhere in the series) demons could slip through from time to time. That would explain why Toguro could never make it through the portal to demon world which is why he was stuck with weaker beings in the human world, since no other demon that could cross over to the human world could be above a C class (unless they somehow got stronger after crossing the barrier as weaker class demons; just FYI I believe it was implied that both Karasu and Bui may have been 2 such demons since they were really weak when either of the Toguro brothers had initially defeated them).
As for Hokushin, He was able to cross the barrier because he used a device that sapped most of his power so that he could only emit the energy of a D class apparition, which is why he and those 2 other random servants of Raizen were able to make it past the barrier.
I would go on, but I can't I generously offered a pal of mine the last season so, he could watch. Since you know. CN change it to early morning. :imnothappy: So, he couldn't finish it either. But both Koenma and Hokushin seemed to had contradict each other I swear. YOU'LL SEE! :-P
I seriously hope he enjoys though.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on May 20, 2011, 04:53:13 PMAlso, sacred energy boosts him up to S class, and S classes couldn't pass through the barrier to demon world (of course he ended up breaking the barrier, but either way he couldn't even make it through the tunnel/portal in an S class form until after doing that.
Well Sensui was a human, so he was able to pass through the barrier. It was Hiei and Kurama that needed the barrier to be broken.
Quote from: Aurora on May 24, 2011, 05:19:28 AMI would go on, but I can't I generously offered a pal of mine the last season so, he could watch. Since you know. CN change it to early morning. :imnothappy: So, he couldn't finish it either. But both Koenma and Hokushin seemed to had contradict each other I swear. YOU'LL SEE! :-P
I seriously hope he enjoys though.
I'll never forgive Cartoon Network for doing that. Series deserves respect. :P
Great your back! Now get with the arguing!
Quote from: Aurora on May 24, 2011, 10:41:05 PM
Great your back! Now get with the arguing!
NO U!
... How's that?
So I've recently started rewatching this. And I think, for the first time, I'm gonna state my problems with this series. And that's the fact that, good as it is, it REALLY feels like they are making it up along the way. Few things I believe were planned, such as Toguro's survival in the first season, and Hiei and Kurama teaming up with them (though Hiei's crude character design in the first few episodes makes me wonder otherwise).
But things like Yusuke's lineage certainly feel like they weren't planned. And most of the time I don't have a BIG problem with this, but the inconsistencies get sloppy. For example, King Yama's character design completely changes in the third season. Sure, like we won't notice that! Not only that, but his established character also changes. What we learn about him in the first few episodes is that he's basically an angry god who will, as Koenma states, destroy cities to get his 3 artifacts. Tell me, do you imagine the CURRENT King Yama, all official and proper, doing that? No. He'd send out the SDF to search for the artifacts.
Another thing that just doesn't line up for me is Hiei's whole story. His first appearance no longer works. Look at his story. We learn that he was exiled from his home... Okay... We learn that he gets the Jagan and wants to find his sister... Makes sense... So how on earth does he get so sidetracked by those artifacts? Heck, the least they could have done is whip up an explanation for it, that maybe he wanted the sword to create demons to help his search. At least then they could pretend they had things planned. :P
There's also the fact that every demon they meet is the end all, eat-face-and-die, master villain. In the beginning, OH MY GOSH HIEI KURAMA AND GOUKI ARE PUSHING OUT TREMENDOUS AMOUNTS OF ENERGY. Then we learn they are just a bunch of wimps. How about the Saint Beasts? They supposedly could have taken over the world. Well... I think Sensui would have a few things to say to that. :P
Then we get Toguro, who they flat-out call "the most powerful". And even when they try to bring in the statistics in the next season, it still feels weird. But I guess they do have a good way to explain this. Basically he's the most powerful in human world...
Now we get to Sensui, probably my biggest problem. HE seems like the ultimate villain. I remember when these episodes were on Toonami years ago, after seeing the Sacred Energy I actually said "No one will ever be stronger then Sensui". Then, guess what? He's a weakling! And what ever happened to the A-class? Minoru called them the equivalent to beasts and gods of myth, and that they are watching from the tunnel "waiting for their chance to rise to glory". Seem invincible, eh? Nope! They're just fodder! Once you get to demon world, everyone and their dog is AT LEAST an A-class. Good thing they didn't make a fifth season, where we'd learn that Raizen is the lackey of "a greater power".
Of course there are other things here and there, like powers being ignored. The Spirit Wave could have been useful, and how come Koenma stopped using that time freeze ability after the first few episodes? That could have been useful!
All these little things do bother me. But of course, they are drowned out by the brilliance of this series. So don't take this as me trying to put it down!
Kurama was always planned to be a good guy but Hiei wasn't at first.
Koenma can't send out the SDF, and he wanted to be discreet. He didn't want his father to find out.
Hiei's arc is a bit confusing, I'll admit. I'm thinking he got the Jagan Eye not long before the series which drained his energy tremendously (bringing him down to D rank) and after he was defeated by Yusuke and employed by Spirit World his outlook began to slowly change. His new found sense of honor seemed to make him less angry/mad and mellowed him out, concentrating his energy allowing him to regain his former power (and then some) over the course of the series. I'm thinking he was trying to get the artifacts to regain some of his lost power the easy way, but when that doesn't work, he gives up and follows Yusuke's example of training. since he seems to respect him a lot.
Kurama's problems were mainly that he was not used to using his human body in battle (the artifacts story was his first "crime" in that form, remember), which also changed as the series went on.
The time freeze thing was an anime only thing. That didn't happen in the manga. Yusuke was talking to Koenma in real time and confusing the teachers.
Toguro was always powerful, even after he died he never felt weakened. He could have killed anyone in Chapter Black short of Sensui. Speaking of sensui, he would have wanted the Saint Beasts to take over the world, that's basically what he wanted in the first place.
I do agree with you that I didn't like the whole Raizen killing Sensui thing, and that it kind of got in the way of the story. Also throw in the last arc not being as well developed and I can't shake the feeling that he should have just ended it at Sensui. We have a new Spirit Detective, a real successor a protector of the world. The end.
I hope I answered some of your questions/problems.
Going back to the artifacts that must have been some weak security guarding if they were defeated by D-classes. :-/
In fact, looking at the whole First Season...did Koenma seriously expected Yusuke to win his battles? They wanted him too fight 3 D-classes were able to infiltrate Spirit World kill some guards who might have been stronger than Yusuke, A demon going around collecting the best techniques of psychics that might have also been more powerful than Yusuke, and go up against 4 powerful(at the time) Saint Beasts all by himself(I doubt they expected the other 3 to help) without any other support?
I know it would be boring if everything was easy and the opponents weak, but still.
Koenma was an ignorant idiot throughout much of the series. He not only looked like a child, judging on his decisions, he most certainly was one. His plans consisted of "YUSUKE GET THINGS DONE" and hoping he'd figure it out. Not a very good boss, no wonder Yusuke felt so good after hitting him in Chapter Black.
As for the security thing, well I'm sure Kurama had a plan. ;)
In regards to what talonmalon333 said about Yama's/Enma's character design, its not inconsistent at all. When its mentioned that he can destroy cities if he goes on a rampage earlier in the manga, you don't actually see him, all you see is a little clip-show of still pictures showing some interpretation of him. If you've watched your fair share of old-school anime, you'd know that this is a technique used to showcase how someone else (a character in the series) might perceive a character without having seen them. In this case, it was most likely Yusuke's perception of Yama, but either way, the technique is meant for exposition, and was not meant to be an actual character design for the character.
As for Hiei, the only thing that made his character really inconsistent with his first appearance were his mannerisms. As Desensitized explained, him getting the demon artifacts could easily be seen as a way for him to gain power quickly since it was stated that his power was drastically drained after receiving the Jagan Eye. The problem, though, lies in how he was portrayed as a typical villain back during his first appearance, having a smug smirk on his face that is totally contradictory to his more serious tone from when he becomes an ally to Yusuke, and he is shown to lack an honor code which he is immediately shown to have in his next appearance. If he had been kept more serious in tone as a villain during his first appearance, then it would have been consistent, but its obvious that Togashi had never originally planned out his back-story, which is why you learn it so much later on in the series.
Anyways, of course this series wasn't really planned out from the start. Its nothing special, and its pretty common of almost all long-running shonen series. Certain elements of the series were certainly planned out, such as The Dark Tournament arc and Genkai's relation to Toguro, but many other things were just made up as the story moved along. If you've read just about any other shonen series, you'll see that YYH is far from the worst-culprit of this sort of ret-conning, though. Hell, if we're going to talk about things that weren't planned out, you might be interested to know that even the author of Death Note admitted that he almost never planned things out ahead of time, and literally just made up the story as it went along (to be honest, I'm pretty sure he does that with Bakuman, too).
The only shonen manga that I can think of that really plans things out really consistently is One Piece. In that manga, stuff you read in the first 10 chapters will be completely consistent with anything that happens all the way up to chapter 600. The entire story was already planned out before it was even written, which is actually a little disturbing in quite a few ways.
I think Togashi had everything up to the Dark Tournament planned out, but only fleshed it out as he went along. That's why it seems so intertwined, but some of the details seem a bit weird.
Though the anime did make things more consistent, it does seem weird that they wouldn't try to change Hiei's first appearance a bit. I reason it that he was so weak that the Jagan Eye was able to control him (even his form changing kind of implies this), though its obviously nothing canonical just makes it easier for me to understand. I always wonder why he never really used the eye after that, aside from a few moments, despite how heavily he used it in his first appearance. So that's the way I reason it.
That's me, anyway.
I think Yoko Kurama might be a minor inconsistency. He went from showing a sense of fear when Karasu took off his mask, to being revealed as an all powerful A-class.
Quote from: Desensitized on May 26, 2011, 03:53:21 PM
Kurama was always planned to be a good guy but Hiei wasn't at first.
Hiei's arc is a bit confusing, I'll admit. I'm thinking he got the Jagan Eye not long before the series which drained his energy tremendously (bringing him down to D rank) and after he was defeated by Yusuke and employed by Spirit World his outlook began to slowly change. His new found sense of honor seemed to make him less angry/mad and mellowed him out, concentrating his energy allowing him to regain his former power (and then some) over the course of the series. I'm thinking he was trying to get the artifacts to regain some of his lost power the easy way, but when that doesn't work, he gives up and follows Yusuke's example of training. since he seems to respect him a lot.
The time freeze thing was an anime only thing. That didn't happen in the manga. Yusuke was talking to Koenma in real time and confusing the teachers.
I do agree with you that I didn't like the whole Raizen killing Sensui thing, and that it kind of got in the way of the story. Also throw in the last arc not being as well developed and I can't shake the feeling that he should have just ended it at Sensui. We have a new Spirit Detective, a real successor a protector of the world. The end.
Hiei wasn't? I'm actually surprised! But your theory on him stealing it makes sense. As for the "time freeze" moment... I really need to reread the manga.
Also, does anyone know how Togashi originally planned on ending the series, being that there would have been no season 4?
Quote from: Aurora on May 26, 2011, 04:14:51 PMIn fact, looking at the whole First Season...did Koenma seriously expected Yusuke to win his battles? They wanted him too fight 3 D-classes were able to infiltrate Spirit World kill some guards who might have been stronger than Yusuke, A demon going around collecting the best techniques of psychics that might have also been more powerful than Yusuke, and go up against 4 powerful(at the time) Saint Beasts all by himself(I doubt they expected the other 3 to help) without any other support?
But they did expect them to help. They sent Kurama and Hiei, after all. ;)
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on May 26, 2011, 04:25:08 PM
In regards to what talonmalon333 said about Yama's/Enma's character design, its not inconsistent at all. When its mentioned that he can destroy cities if he goes on a rampage earlier in the manga, you don't actually see him, all you see is a little clip-show of still pictures showing some interpretation of him. If you've watched your fair share of old-school anime, you'd know that this is a technique used to showcase how someone else (a character in the series) might perceive a character without having seen them. In this case, it was most likely Yusuke's perception of Yama, but either way, the technique is meant for exposition, and was not meant to be an actual character design for the character.
Anyways, of course this series wasn't really planned out from the start. Its nothing special, and its pretty common of almost all long-running shonen series. Certain elements of the series were certainly planned out, such as The Dark Tournament arc and Genkai's relation to Toguro, but many other things were just made up as the story moved along. If you've read just about any other shonen series, you'll see that YYH is far from the worst-culprit of this sort of ret-conning, though. Hell, if we're going to talk about things that weren't planned out, you might be interested to know that even the author of Death Note admitted that he almost never planned things out ahead of time, and literally just made up the story as it went along (to be honest, I'm pretty sure he does that with Bakuman, too).
But the thing about King Enma is that this wasn't perceived by Yusuke. It was perceived by Koenma. And that's how Koenma described him, so it must have been accurate. There is also the fact that his character design was changed drastically.
Genkai and Toguro's relationship was planned? Where do you guys learn about all this? :P
Quote from: talonmalon333 on May 26, 2011, 06:27:03 PM
I think Yoko Kurama might be a minor inconsistency. He went from showing a sense of fear when Karasu took off his mask, to being revealed as an all powerful A-class.
He was afraid because his human body was not up to Karasu's level, at the point he didn't have a way of retaining his old form and he would certainly lose without it.
Then he finally transformed and it seemed that his human body was slowly regaining his old powers.
Also, Karasu's ace in the hole was his speed and charisma in masking his movements. With Kurama being able to get around that, Karasu was a much easier threat to deal with.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on May 26, 2011, 06:27:03 PM
But the thing about King Enma is that this wasn't perceived by Yusuke. It was perceived by Koenma. And that's how Koenma described him, so it must have been accurate. There is also the fact that his character design was changed drastically.
No it wasn't, or at least not necessarily. Once again, you seem completely unfamiliar with this old technique in anime, but just because it shows those screens when another character is talking doesn't mean that its "their" perception of it. At any rate, perception was the best way I could put it into words. Its not necessarily how another character thinks a character they haven't seen might look like, but just something for the audience to view without really revealing the real identity of a character's actual design. And there is no proof that it was Koenma's perception of that character (in fact it can't be, since he clearly would have known what he really looked like). If you read the manga, Botan is the one who actually imagines King Enma looking that way (In the manga its implied that she hasn't ever met him in person at any point before the CB arc).
For reference, they use that same technique in the movie in one scene in which Hinagenshi is talking about the Netherworld and King Enma's relation to it, and they depict him in an old-style Japanese painting rather than what he really looks like. That doesn't mean that's his "character design," its just a technique they use to give viewers some picture of a character when they don't know what they look like yet.
So, I'm not arguing that they didn't know what he looked like at that point, because they would have shown him if they did, but Togashi didn't think of actually putting him in as a character in the story at that point, so what he showed the readers was a "depiction" of what King Enma might look like, not an actual character design. There is a difference. If you've seen other shonen series where they have exposition scenes in which they build up an upcoming character that hasn't been revealed yet, they use that same sort of technique, even if the writers or artists already know what the character will look like.
QuoteGenkai and Toguro's relationship was planned? Where do you guys learn about all this? :P
I mean from the beginning of the DT arc, it was planned out, which can be clearly seen since they drop you all sorts of clues that they know each other fairly well from before, pretty early on in the DT arc.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on May 26, 2011, 07:13:38 PM
No it wasn't, or at least not necessarily. Once again, you seem completely unfamiliar with this old technique in anime, but just because it shows those screens when another character is talking doesn't mean that its "their" perception of it. At any rate, perception was the best way I could put it into words. Its not necessarily how another character thinks a character they haven't seen might look like, but just something for the audience to view without really revealing the real identity of a character's actual design. And there is no proof that it was Koenma's perception of that character (in fact it can't be, since he clearly would have known what he really looked like). If you read the manga, Botan is the one who actually imagines King Enma looking that way (In the manga its implied that she hasn't ever met him in person at any point before the CB arc).
But the list goes on. They do show an actual character depiction. When Koenma reveals that King Enma will be back in a week, he actually shows up on Koenma's big screen. That one is an actual picture of him.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on May 26, 2011, 07:13:38 PMI mean from the beginning of the DT arc, it was planned out, which can be clearly seen since they drop you all sorts of clues that they know each other fairly well from before, pretty early on in the DT arc.
That makes sense. I was more referring to the other stuff, such as how you guys know they planned on Kurama being good but not Hiei.
Quote from: Desensitized on May 26, 2011, 07:00:35 PMHe was afraid because his human body was not up to Karasu's level, at the point he didn't have a way of retaining his old form and he would certainly lose without it.
Then he finally transformed and it seemed that his human body was slowly regaining his old powers.
Also, Karasu's ace in the hole was his speed and charisma in masking his movements. With Kurama being able to get around that, Karasu was a much easier threat to deal with.
I was mostly referring to when Karasu's mask is removed. When he charges up and is exploding with power, Yoko seems unnerved. That doesn't seem like an A-class. :P
Quote from: talonmalon333 on May 27, 2011, 11:29:32 AM
But the list goes on. They do show an actual character depiction. When Koenma reveals that King Enma will be back in a week, he actually shows up on Koenma's big screen. That one is an actual picture of him.
That was in the anime only, though, so its non-canon. They never show his face on a screen in the manga. It just shows Botan imagining what he looks like in an angry state.
QuoteThat makes sense. I was more referring to the other stuff, such as how you guys know they planned on Kurama being good but not Hiei.
Its no secret or anything. Recall that from his very first appearance, Kurama was never hostile towards Yusuke, nor did he express any interest in cooperating with Hiei and Gouki past getting the artifacts (in fact as soon as they had them, he ditched them both).
What do you guys think about the point I made where the "almighty A-class" was passed over completely?
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on May 27, 2011, 01:13:57 PMThat was in the anime only, though, so its non-canon. They never show his face on a screen in the manga. It just shows Botan imagining what he looks like in an angry state.
Understood. Again, I need to reread the manga. :P
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on May 27, 2011, 01:13:57 PMIts no secret or anything. Recall that from his very first appearance, Kurama was never hostile towards Yusuke, nor did he express any interest in cooperating with Hiei and Gouki past getting the artifacts (in fact as soon as they had them, he ditched them both).
Well yeah, Kurama was no secret. But what about Hiei? How do we know for sure he wasn't planned to join Yusuke?
Togashi mentioned in an interview once that Kurama was always planned to be a good guy, but Hiei wasn't at first.
As for the Karasu thing, Karasu was a B rank and Yoko Kurama was an A rank. Going gold wouldn't have brought him to A rank, or he would have beaten Toguro long ago.
Wait ,wait wasn't Yoko Kurama still a B-class during Dark Tournament and jumped back to his original A in Chapter Black? What's the arguement here?
Quote from: Desensitized on May 27, 2011, 06:09:33 PM
As for the Karasu thing, Karasu was a B rank and Yoko Kurama was an A rank. Going gold wouldn't have brought him to A rank, or he would have beaten Toguro long ago.
That's not what I'm implying. I'm implying that Yoko Kurama wasn't an A.
Quote from: Aurora on May 27, 2011, 06:15:47 PM
Wait ,wait wasn't Yoko Kurama still a B-class during Dark Tournament and jumped back to his original A in Chapter Black? What's the arguement here?
Darn it! I retired from this theorizing long ago. :P
To make it short, as of the end of the tournament Kurama was a B. He DID jump up to an A in the next saga. That part's a fact. My question is about his demon form, Yoko Kurama. In the Dark Tournament they make him out to be fairly weak, and yet he's supposedly an A.
Yoko Kurama is weak? News to me.
He was clearly more powerful than Karasu who was also an official B. If Yoko Kurama wasn't an A rank, then the fight wouldn't have been so one sided.
Quote from: Desensitized on May 27, 2011, 09:15:53 PM
Yoko Kurama is weak? News to me.
He was clearly more powerful than Karasu who was also an official B. If Yoko Kurama wasn't an A rank, then the fight wouldn't have been so one sided.
He seemed nervous when Karasu's mask was removed.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on May 27, 2011, 08:51:58 PM
To make it short, as of the end of the tournament Kurama was a B. He DID jump up to an A in the next saga. That part's a fact. My question is about his demon form, Yoko Kurama. In the Dark Tournament they make him out to be fairly weak, and yet he's supposedly an A.
Oh yes, that. I just thought Kurama low level B class and turning into Yoko turned him into a mid-B. Though your right about him dominating the fight..which Hiei basically, did too when he absorbed the Dragon. I hate this. ::) :P
Quote from: talonmalon333 on May 26, 2011, 02:13:14 PM
So I've recently started rewatching this. And I think, for the first time, I'm gonna state my problems with this series. And that's the fact that, good as it is, it REALLY feels like they are making it up along the way. Few things I believe were planned, such as Toguro's survival in the first season, and Hiei and Kurama teaming up with them (though Hiei's crude character design in the first few episodes makes me wonder otherwise).
But things like Yusuke's lineage certainly feel like they weren't planned. And most of the time I don't have a BIG problem with this, but the inconsistencies get sloppy. For example, King Yama's character design completely changes in the third season. Sure, like we won't notice that! Not only that, but his established character also changes. What we learn about him in the first few episodes is that he's basically an angry god who will, as Koenma states, destroy cities to get his 3 artifacts. Tell me, do you imagine the CURRENT King Yama, all official and proper, doing that? No. He'd send out the SDF to search for the artifacts.
Another thing that just doesn't line up for me is Hiei's whole story. His first appearance no longer works. Look at his story. We learn that he was exiled from his home... Okay... We learn that he gets the Jagan and wants to find his sister... Makes sense... So how on earth does he get so sidetracked by those artifacts? Heck, the least they could have done is whip up an explanation for it, that maybe he wanted the sword to create demons to help his search. At least then they could pretend they had things planned. :P
There's also the fact that every demon they meet is the end all, eat-face-and-die, master villain. In the beginning, OH MY GOSH HIEI KURAMA AND GOUKI ARE PUSHING OUT TREMENDOUS AMOUNTS OF ENERGY. Then we learn they are just a bunch of wimps. How about the Saint Beasts? They supposedly could have taken over the world. Well... I think Sensui would have a few things to say to that. :P
Then we get Toguro, who they flat-out call "the most powerful". And even when they try to bring in the statistics in the next season, it still feels weird. But I guess they do have a good way to explain this. Basically he's the most powerful in human world...
Now we get to Sensui, probably my biggest problem. HE seems like the ultimate villain. I remember when these episodes were on Toonami years ago, after seeing the Sacred Energy I actually said "No one will ever be stronger then Sensui". Then, guess what? He's a weakling! And what ever happened to the A-class? Minoru called them the equivalent to beasts and gods of myth, and that they are watching from the tunnel "waiting for their chance to rise to glory". Seem invincible, eh? Nope! They're just fodder! Once you get to demon world, everyone and their dog is AT LEAST an A-class. Good thing they didn't make a fifth season, where we'd learn that Raizen is the lackey of "a greater power".
Of course there are other things here and there, like powers being ignored. The Spirit Wave could have been useful, and how come Koenma stopped using that time freeze ability after the first few episodes? That could have been useful!
All these little things do bother me. But of course, they are drowned out by the brilliance of this series. So don't take this as me trying to put it down!
Hmmm, time freeze. I don't really recall that.
Quote from: Aurora on May 26, 2011, 04:14:51 PM
Going back to the artifacts that must have been some weak security guarding if they were defeated by D-classes. :-/
In fact, looking at the whole First Season...did Koenma seriously expected Yusuke to win his battles? They wanted him too fight 3 D-classes were able to infiltrate Spirit World kill some guards who might have been stronger than Yusuke, A demon going around collecting the best techniques of psychics that might have also been more powerful than Yusuke, and go up against 4 powerful(at the time) Saint Beasts all by himself(I doubt they expected the other 3 to help) without any other support?
I know it would be boring if everything was easy and the opponents weak, but still.
Koenma assigned both Hiei and Kurama to help Yusuke as some sort of work release kind of thing like they do in prison. That made sense. Team up Yusuke with two other powerful demons. Kuwabara went on his own behalf out of honor or some shit. Koenma also made sense in Chapter Black when he knew Yusuke would get killed. The first 3 missions was ridiculous though. Well actually Rescue Yukina much less so since Koenma admittedly had little data on the Toguro brothers but the Genkai Tournament and 3 artifacts missions were straight up suicide. Kurama would have beaten Yusuke with laughable ease. Koenma had no way of knowing he was kind hearted.
Yeah, Koenma was clueless. He got better at his job as the series went on, but at the beginning he was as dumb as Yusuke was.
The time freeze thing was from when Yusuke was accused of stealing the pen in school and Koenma froze time to give him his mission and point out where the pen was. In the manga, that didn't happen. Koenma did it in real time and nobody knew what Yusuke was looking at. I think they just used time freeze to make the scene play easier in animation.
Quote from: Desensitized on May 27, 2011, 06:09:33 PM
Togashi mentioned in an interview once that Kurama was always planned to be a good guy, but Hiei wasn't at first.
As for the Karasu thing, Karasu was a B rank and Yoko Kurama was an A rank. Going gold wouldn't have brought him to A rank, or he would have beaten Toguro long ago.
That reminds me, didn't Sensui's right hand man say Hiei and Kurama were on the verge of being A class demons right before Yusuke died? I believe when Yoko Kurama first appeared, he was B class. Likely B just mid B class because I doubt they'd have him stronger than Toguro at that point.
Quote from: Aurora on May 28, 2011, 05:07:12 AM
Quote from: talonmalon333 on May 27, 2011, 08:51:58 PM
To make it short, as of the end of the tournament Kurama was a B. He DID jump up to an A in the next saga. That part's a fact. My question is about his demon form, Yoko Kurama. In the Dark Tournament they make him out to be fairly weak, and yet he's supposedly an A.
Oh yes, that. I just thought Kurama low level B class and turning into Yoko turned him into a mid-B. Though your right about him dominating the fight..which Hiei basically, did too when he absorbed the Dragon. I hate this. ::) :P
I believe that's exactly what happened. And Hiei was another example of a B class dominating another B class but in Hiei's case he pretty dominated throughout the entire Bui fight.
Quote from: Desensitized on June 01, 2011, 12:59:45 PM
Yeah, Koenma was clueless. He got better at his job as the series went on, but at the beginning he was as dumb as Yusuke was.
The time freeze thing was from when Yusuke was accused of stealing the pen in school and Koenma froze time to give him his mission and point out where the pen was. In the manga, that didn't happen. Koenma did it in real time and nobody knew what Yusuke was looking at. I think they just used time freeze to make the scene play easier in animation.
Makes sense and yeah, baby face acted like an idiot.
I also think the SDF makes things from earlier seem less dire. It makes sense for them to send their weaker men (Yusuke) first and hold back on the SDF. But they talk like the Saint Beasts and Rando will DESTROY THE WORLD if Yusuke fails.
And I still don't buy that King Enma would "destroy continents" if the artifacts weren't recovered in time.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on June 01, 2011, 05:33:53 PMAnd I still don't buy that King Enma would "destroy continents" if the artifacts weren't recovered in time.
He probably wouldn't. But remember, this is Koenma being a baby. He didn't think rationally once during the three artifacts arc, IIRC even yelling at Yusuke to finish faster even though he was half dead from Koenma's terrible directions.
I just reread Kurama Vs Karasu in the manga, and it wasn't a one sided fight at all. Yoko Kurama took Karasu by surprise and did him some damage for it, but Kurama turned back before we could really see them go at it. Karasu lost because he didn't understand Kurama's plant powers, and not because he was outmatched at all.
Kurama won because he was smarter, not stronger.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on June 01, 2011, 05:33:53 PM
I also think the SDF makes things from earlier seem less dire. It makes sense for them to send their weaker men (Yusuke) first and hold back on the SDF. But they talk like the Saint Beasts and Rando will DESTROY THE WORLD if Yusuke fails.
And I still don't buy that King Enma would "destroy continents" if the artifacts weren't recovered in time.
Of course he wouldn't do that.
Koenma sent Yusuke to avoid angrying his father because if he failed, he would have gotten a beaten and of course SDF would finish Yusuke's early jobs with ease.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on June 01, 2011, 05:33:53 PM
I also think the SDF makes things from earlier seem less dire. It makes sense for them to send their weaker men (Yusuke) first and hold back on the SDF. But they talk like the Saint Beasts and Rando will DESTROY THE WORLD if Yusuke fails.
Well, keep in mind that the SDF were under King Enma's control, not Koenma's (recall in Chapter Black that King Enma himself issues the order for them to kill Yusuke and capture Koenma, and then later to kill Koenma in the beginning of the Three Kings arc). I believe it was implied that King Enma was away on "business" of some sort and it would be likely that since he's the big honcho of Spirit World, he must be the one to deal with more pressing matters, and perhaps something was going on with demon world or something (and I also believe it was implied when Genkai died that there were other worlds or dimensions that one could be sent to after they died, or something like that, so maybe Spirit World deals with other dimensions we've never heard of as well, but that's just a theory of mine with not really enough evidence to back it up, so I only propose it as an idea).
They never talk like Rando will destroy the world if Yusuke were to fail. Where did you even hear that? As I recall, they said that if he gained Genkai's ability he would go on a massive killing spree testing the limits of his power, which is certainly a very big deal, but it was never made out to be a "world ending" catastrophe. The Saint Beasts demanded access to the human realm, and likely wanted to take over the world or something like that, but if anything Koenma didn't take them seriously enough since he just sent Yusuke, Kuwabara, and Kurama and Hiei as allied support to take them out (keeping in mind that even if they were around the same class level, Yusuke and Kuwabara were still way too inexperienced to be expected to take on something of that sort). They also never really acted like the Saint Beasts would destroy the world, but more like they would endanger a whole lot of human lives if they were to gain access to the human world.
Also, as for the Dark Tournament which I believe you mentioned something about earlier, don't forget that Yusuke himself agreed to do it because Toguro threatened that he would kill Keiko and others Yusuke cared about if he didn't. Koenma had nothing to do with forcing Yusuke into it or anything of the sort.
Rando was just after the techniques and loved testing them out on humans. That was never a world ending catastrophe.
The Saint Beasts was Koenma's jurisdiction, and had he failed, King Enma probably would have sent in the SDF. But Yusuke's group was the first line of attack and had a very high chance of success with Kurama and Hiei, so it was probably never in the cards.
Reading Chapter Black now.
Ranks by Dark Tournament's end:
Toguro - B+
Hiei - B
Which would probably put Bui at B- (due to Hiei's dominance) and Karasu at most around likely the same due to him being slightly overwhelmed when first fighting Yoko Kurama.
Hiei's rank in the Three Artifacts arc - D+ (and they comment at his astonishing progress in the last six months)
So I guess Yusuke would be floating around matching the lower C rank until his training for the Dark Tournament shot him up to around the C+ level before the Spirit Wave.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on June 02, 2011, 03:56:38 PM
Quote from: talonmalon333 on June 01, 2011, 05:33:53 PM
I also think the SDF makes things from earlier seem less dire. It makes sense for them to send their weaker men (Yusuke) first and hold back on the SDF. But they talk like the Saint Beasts and Rando will DESTROY THE WORLD if Yusuke fails.
Well, keep in mind that the SDF were under King Enma's control, not Koenma's (recall in Chapter Black that King Enma himself issues the order for them to kill Yusuke and capture Koenma, and then later to kill Koenma in the beginning of the Three Kings arc). I believe it was implied that King Enma was away on "business" of some sort and it would be likely that since he's the big honcho of Spirit World, he must be the one to deal with more pressing matters, and perhaps something was going on with demon world or something (and I also believe it was implied when Genkai died that there were other worlds or dimensions that one could be sent to after they died, or something like that, so maybe Spirit World deals with other dimensions we've never heard of as well, but that's just a theory of mine with not really enough evidence to back it up, so I only propose it as an idea).
They never talk like Rando will destroy the world if Yusuke were to fail. Where did you even hear that? As I recall, they said that if he gained Genkai's ability he would go on a massive killing spree testing the limits of his power, which is certainly a very big deal, but it was never made out to be a "world ending" catastrophe. The Saint Beasts demanded access to the human realm, and likely wanted to take over the world or something like that, but if anything Koenma didn't take them seriously enough since he just sent Yusuke, Kuwabara, and Kurama and Hiei as allied support to take them out (keeping in mind that even if they were around the same class level, Yusuke and Kuwabara were still way too inexperienced to be expected to take on something of that sort). They also never really acted like the Saint Beasts would destroy the world, but more like they would endanger a whole lot of human lives if they were to gain access to the human world.
Also, as for the Dark Tournament which I believe you mentioned something about earlier, don't forget that Yusuke himself agreed to do it because Toguro threatened that he would kill Keiko and others Yusuke cared about if he didn't. Koenma had nothing to do with forcing Yusuke into it or anything of the sort.
WHAT?! WHAT?! WHAT?! Do NOT remember this. I hope you're wrong and just a crazy person.
Re-watch the first few episodes of the Three Kings arc. Koenma flat-out says that both him and Yusuke are targets of King Enma, which is why he's hiding out in the human world in his teenage form in the first place and actually sitting down and talking to Yusuke about it.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on June 07, 2011, 12:06:50 PM
Re-watch the first few episodes of the Three Kings arc. Koenma flat-out says that both him and Yusuke are targets of King Enma, which is why he's hiding out in the human world in his teenage form in the first place and actually sitting down and talking to Yusuke about it.
Yeah, but did he ever said his Dad wanted him dead. Capturing makes sense but to put a hit out on his son for any reason is completely ridiculous.
Yes, he does say he wants him dead. Like I said, go re-watch those episodes if you don't believe me.
Post some damn quotes and I'll believe you.
Why the fuck are you too lazy to watch a fucking episode? You really are a dumb-shit. If you want a specific episode, I believe its episode 95 or somewhere around there, or ask someone else here. Either way, its there you dumb-ass. Stop trying to deny when you're wrong. We all already know how much of a brain-dead idiot you are, anyways, so its not like you have a reputaion to ruin or anything. :sly:
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on June 07, 2011, 02:44:50 PM
Why the fuck are you too lazy to watch a fucking episode? You really are a dumb-shit. If you want a specific episode, I believe its episode 95 or somewhere around there, or ask someone else here. Either way, its there you dumb-ass. Stop trying to deny when you're wrong. We all already know how much of a brain-dead idiot you are, anyways, so its not like you have a reputaion to ruin or anything. :sly:
:'( I miss it when you were more natural with your insults. Everything these days is going downhill.
Quote from: gunswordfist on June 07, 2011, 03:20:43 PM
:'( I miss it when you were more natural with your insults. Everything these days is going downhill.
Yes, I know that the truth about you retardedness makes you cry. Nice try, but what I said wasn't an insult if its the truth, dumb-fuck. :sly:
I miss it when you could actually come up with comebacks or insults of your own, though. Now you're literally the most pussified member on this board. :blush:
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on June 07, 2011, 04:06:09 PM
Quote from: gunswordfist on June 07, 2011, 03:20:43 PM
:'( I miss it when you were more natural with your insults. Everything these days is going downhill.
Yes, I know that the truth about you retardedness makes you cry. Nice try, but what I said wasn't an insult if its the truth, dumb-fuck. :sly:
I miss it when you could actually come up with comebacks or insults of your own, though. Now you're literally the most pussified member on this board. :blush:
Look, numb-nuts, I was trying to spare you the embarassment of getting embarassed by me but you are too much of a brain dead motherfucker to realize that. :anger: :anger:
Yeah, I know you want to believe you're a bad-ass, but its impossible for you to embarrass me when you already embarrass yourself with so little effort. To put it simply, you're the dumb-ass of the forum, and everyone knows it. But, its OK, we don't judge you any differently for it (not that you could tell the difference, anyways). :sly:
While you nitwits continue bickering (basically, while gunswordfist continues to be a fool while Ensatsu-ken erases my post due to lacking any good comebacks), I feel like posting my top 5 favorite characters in this series.
#5
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Wasn't sure about who should go here, but really, Sakyo is a sicko. Definitely the most evil in the 2nd season, he completely leaves an impression.
#4
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An old favorite. Genkai's one of the most awesome female characters in anime, period! Though I originally had problems with it, I'm glad she was in the 3rd season. I feel like it even added to Toguro's character.
#3
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Sensui is easily one of the most intriguing characters in the series, and probably one of the best villains ever. Nuff said!
#2
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I can understand picking either Sensui OR Toguro as the best villain in the series. And for me, I can see myself switching everyday. Right now I'd go with Toguro. I feel he has more depth.
And now, #1...
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I love the main 4 so much that I had to throw them together. I love them all equally on an even level. If you made me pick one, I'd probably have to say Yusuke. But it's such a close call.
My top 5:
Honorable mentions: Koenma and Kuwabara (I love the both of them, but I can't necessarily rank them above any of these 5 characters).
5. Sakyo- He's a pretty underrated character. To me, despite his little screen-time, he left a HUGE impact on the series, IMO.
4. Yusuke- He's a great protagonist and while he lacks the character depth of characters like Hiei and Kurama, he doesn't really need it because he's already a very well-designed character from the get-go.
3. Genkai- She is proof that this isn't such a misogynistic shonen as many people would be lead to believe. Aside from being a strong female character (especially considering her old age), she serves as one of the best "wise mentor" characters I have ever seen in any series, and her interacts with Yusuke are always priceless. In fact, the reason I rank her above Yusuke is because I feel that without her, Yusuke would lose a lot of his great moments in the series since he owes A LOT to her, both in terms of how his character is handled and in how many great moments he gets as a result of her presence in the story.
2. Younger Toguro/Sensui- I know its cheating to tie the 2 biggest villains in this series in a single spot, and to be fair, I think that Sensui is a far better designed villain that Toguro, but even then I think that Toguro is a completely memorable villain and a great overall character in the series, and I just can't NOT rank him here, either, so I just said "fuck it" and decided to tie them for a spot. Both are complex and interesting villains who really help make this show what it is. I'd go so far as to say that without them, this could have easily been just another generic shonen series.
1. Kurama- Don't get me wrong, I love all of the main 4, but I think that Kurama is by far my favorite character in the entire series. He is intelligent, yes, but what makes him more interesting than other intelligent characters in other shonen series is that he's not treated like he's invincible because of it. You get to see him think and plan ahead in battles without automatically always knowing the right move, and you end up appreciating him more for that. Also, I find that he has the most interest back-story out of any other character in the series. His relationship with his mother and humaniziation as a character is extremely well-done, and its even more effective when you realize what a cold-blooded killer and criminal he used to be back when he was Yoko Kurama. To me, Kurama is easily one of the top 3 most interesting characters that Togashi has ever written (the 2nd being Sensui, though I didn't rank him above Kurama because I just like Kurama more as a character, and the first for my own reasons is actually Killua from HXH, though if anybody wants me to elaborate on that I'd be happy to, later on).
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on June 08, 2011, 12:30:48 PM
Yeah, I know you want to believe you're a bad-ass, but its impossible for you to embarrass me when you already embarrass yourself with so little effort. To put it simply, you're the dumb-ass of the forum, and everyone knows it. But, its OK, we don't judge you any differently for it (not that you could tell the difference, anyways). :sly:
talon, burn in hell. You're not even worthy of quoting.
EK, I'm sorry for being such a dumb-ass. I know that deep down inside I'm just a punk ass who comes here to be on a power trip. I pretend to be tough here but in real life people push me around and force me to spit shine their shoes. :'(
My top 5 favorite characters:
1. Yusuke (possible my favorite character out of any media)
2. Hiei
3. Younger Toguro
4. Genkai
5. Bui ( :anger: :anger: )
And Kuwabara is a terrible character and is just a weak mish mash of Hiei and Yusuke. I honestly believe that. The only time he did anything I liked was when he cut Hiei and Kurama out of whatsitcallits dimension right before Yusuke died.
5- Yusuke
4- Kurama
3- Younger Toguro
2- Hiei
1- Sensui
I have to admit that the last two are somewhat interchangeable, and Kuwabara and Genkai stand a chance to replace either one at any time. Maybe Sakyo as well, since as EK says, he left a great impression over his few scenes of menace during his course on the show.
When did it become cool to not have Yusuke at #1?
Quote from: gunswordfist on June 08, 2011, 12:52:37 PMtalon, burn in hell. You're not even worthy of quoting.
EK, I'm sorry for being such a dumb-ass. I know that deep down inside I'm just a punk ass who comes here to be on a power trip. I pretend to be tough here but in real life people push me around and force me to spit shine their shoes. :'(
Ignore that fool Ensatsu-ken. He says I'm not worthy of quoting, and then goes and does it anyway. With that in mind, who here should burn in hell?
I'm not sure how much he pays you to be his friend, gunswordfist, but it's not worth it.
Quote from: gunswordfist on June 08, 2011, 12:52:37 PMAnd Kuwabara is a terrible character and is just a weak mish mash of Hiei and Yusuke. I honestly believe that. The only time he did anything I liked was when he cut Hiei and Kurama out of whatsitcallits dimension right before Yusuke died.
I found him to be a brilliant character, and underrated too.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on June 08, 2011, 12:51:34 PMI think that Sensui is a far better designed villain that Toguro,
I'd probably say they are equally well designed. Sensui is great, for reasons you mentioned. But what's so interesting about Toguro is how you feel like you know everything about him... and yet you understand nothing about him.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on June 08, 2011, 01:09:41 PM
Ignore that fool Ensatsu-ken. He says I'm not worthy of quoting, and then goes and does it anyway. With that in mind, who here should burn in hell?
Actually, I just thought that I'd point out that I didn't edit that first line where GSF told you to burn. So yeah, good job, you just made yourself look like even more of an idiot.
Umm, I think that mess of quotes speaks for itself. Thanks for insulting yourself for me. Gee, you really aren't a challenge anymore.
1. Sensui (he goes from being a great villain to excellent once Kazuya appears)
2. Hiei (The final arc made him my favorite protagonist)
3. Kuwabara (He's been ripped off countless times for a reason)
4. Genkai (Like others, she's probably my favorite mentor style character)
5. Yusuke (I enjoy his realistic character progression throughout)
Quote from: talonmalon333 on June 08, 2011, 01:16:56 PM
Umm, I think that mess of quotes speaks for itself. Thanks for insulting yourself for me. Gee, you really aren't a challenge anymore.
Wow....that's the best you can come up with. You do realize that everyone made fun of you behind your back at TV.com for how lame your insults were, right? We still do that here, BTW. ;)
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on June 08, 2011, 01:12:43 PM
Quote from: talonmalon333 on June 08, 2011, 01:09:41 PM
Ignore that fool Ensatsu-ken. He says I'm not worthy of quoting, and then goes and does it anyway. With that in mind, who here should burn in hell?
Actually, I just thought that I'd point out that I didn't edit that first line where GSF told you to burn. So yeah, good job, you just made yourself look like even more of an idiot.
I'm a little whiny nerd who gets beat up by 12 year olds half my size on a daily basis. Pleas kill me. :'(
And talon, yet again you are not worthy of quoting and your post made no fucking sense. It sounds like you are talking to EK and then me. :wth:
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on June 08, 2011, 02:49:19 PMWow....that's the best you can come up with. You do realize that everyone made fun of you behind your back at TV.com for how lame your insults were, right? We still do that here, BTW. ;)
Ahhh. Out of all your lame insults, this one has always been one of my favorites. It's so... bland, and yet you use it ALL THE TIME, hoping against hope that it'll be better then it was last time. Stick to YYH power class humor, dude. At least then you don't look more foolish then you already do.
Just some friendly advice. :)
Quote from: gunswordfist on June 08, 2011, 02:55:39 PMAnd talon, yet again you are not worthy of quoting and your post made no fucking sense. It sounds like you are talking to EK and then me. :wth:
Kid, you're so bad, Ensatsu-ken looks intelligent when arguing with you... If you were a 1st grader, I would throw you into a locker... If you were my pet, I would neglect you... If you were a girl, I would rape you... If you were my son, I would disown you... If you were an endangered animal, I would hunt you... If I met you in person, I would punch you... If you were a college student, I would throw you into a locker.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on June 08, 2011, 03:25:32 PM
Ahhh. Out of all your lame insults, this one has always been one of my favorites. It's so... bland, and yet you use it ALL THE TIME, hoping against hope that it'll be better then it was last time. Stick to YYH power class humor, dude. At least then you don't look more foolish then you already do.
Just some friendly advice. :)
So now you basically go back to ripping me off to try and get in a comeback. To quote Yusuke Urameshi himself: "You shouldn't talk. It makes you sound stupid."
Just some friendly advice. :)
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on June 08, 2011, 04:05:05 PMSo now you basically go back to ripping me off to try and get in a comeback. To quote Yusuke Uramameshi himself: "You shouldn't talk. It makes you sound stupid."
Just some friendly advice. :)
Wow, so you have to make up a character named "Yusuke Uramameshi"? Are you really that desperate for a decent comeback? Since you're doing that, can I make up a character named "Dudeington Cooler then You"? Yeah. And to quote him.
"Ensatsu-ken is a gay little imbecile. I beat the living daylights out of him every day."
-Dudeington Cooler then You, Episode 34
Of, if you wanna go by a real quote, let me quote Yusuke Urameshi: "You shouldn't talk. It makes you sound stupid." ;)
Quote from: talonmalon333 on June 08, 2011, 04:20:13 PM
Wow, so you have to make up a character named "Yusuke Uramameshi"? Are you really that desperate for a decent comeback? Since you're doing that, can I make up a character named "Dudeington Cooler then You"? Yeah. And to quote him.
"Ensatsu-ken is a gay little imbecile. I beat the living daylights out of him every day."
-Dudeington Cooler then You, Episode 34
There are no words to describe how retarded this is, especially since you actually think you're being funny. First you rip me off again, and then you even misspell Yusuke Urameshi. Truly you deserve an award for the 2nd biggest dumb-ass on the Internet (the 1st place goes to GSF; sorry, talon, there's always next year ;) ).
QuoteOf, if you wanna go by a real quote, let me quote Yusuke Urameshi: "You shouldn't talk. It makes you sound stupid." ;)
I'm sorry, perhaps its my bad English, but I don't quite understand the phrase "Of, if." Of if I what? Could you elaborate on the meaning of that for me, oh-so-retarded one?
I'm guessing the fact that you can't come up with a comeback means that you forfeit the argument. :sly:
....By the way talon I haven't been reading a word you said for quite a while, now, so I don't even know what you're comback was supposed to be. :>
talon did not just say he'd rape me. :unimpressed:
Quote from: gunswordfist on June 09, 2011, 12:26:39 PMtalon did not just say he'd rape me.
If you read that post you'd know I didn't exactly. Why would anyone want to even be near you? You're retarded, AND you're gay for Ensatsu-ken.
Quote from: gunswordfist on June 09, 2011, 12:26:39 PM:unimpressed:
Gee... good smiley. If there's one thing I can agree with Ensatsu-ken on (sadly so, considering how I hate being put in the same category as that thing), it's that you truly are the biggest idiot on the internet.
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What am I witnessing here? ???
Quote from: Aurora on June 10, 2011, 04:44:35 PM
What am I witnessing here? ???
What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object.
Erm...yes. Well, anyway. I've been thinking of collecting the manga for this series because...well why not? And was wondering if anything drastic was changed from manga to anime on here. I only thing I'm aware of was Mukuro's past not making it into anime.
Little things mostly. The only real drastic change is that the first part of the Spirit Detective arc (Yusuke as a ghost) was condensed for the anime. There's a few differences near the end, but those are the only huge differences.
Oh yeah, and the manga uses Yusuke's mother more while the anime fleshes out Shizuru instead.
The beginning of the manga has a lot of short stories with Yusuke's adventures as a ghost that were never featured in the anime (the anime condensed it down to the bare-minimum and only included parts that had some bearing on the plot). There was even a side character called Sayaka who was featured in both the manga and the anime but was given a completely different role in the anime. In the manga she was the spirit of a dead girl who was playing with a little boy who could see ghosts but was also risking turning him into a ghost so they could play forever or something of the sort, and Yusuke had to stop her. In the anime she is sent by Spirit World to monitor Yusuke's mom and his friends to see if they really want him back and if he indeed should be brought back to life, and of course she had to monitor Yusuke's behavior himself. Aside from the beginning, there were a few short stories both in the middle and at the end of the manga that were cut out. The most notable one removed was Hiei and Kurma's past featuring how they first met. Though, I do believe that there was an audio CD released that contained that story voice acted out by the original seiyuu from the anime (I listened to it on youtube once).
Oh yeah, also George (Jorge in Japanese) does not exist in the manga. He was purely a filler character in the anime added in for comic relief.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on June 14, 2011, 08:10:41 PM
The beginning of the manga has a lot of short stories with Yusuke's adventures as a ghost that were never featured in the anime (the anime condensed it down to the bare-minimum and only included parts that had some bearing on the plot). There was even a side character called Sayaka who was featured in both the manga and the anime but was given a completely different role in the anime. In the manga she was the spirit of a dead girl who was playing with a little boy who could see ghosts but was also risking turning him into a ghost so they could play forever or something of the sort, and Yusuke had to stop her. In the anime she is sent by Spirit World to monitor Yusuke's mom and his friends to see if they really want him back and if he indeed should be brought back to life, and of course she had to monitor Yusuke's behavior himself. Aside from the beginning, there were a few short stories both in the middle and at the end of the manga that were cut out. The most notable one removed was Hiei and Kurma's past featuring how they first met. Though, I do believe that there was an audio CD released that contained that story voice acted out by the original seiyuu from the anime (I listened to it on youtube once).
Oh yeah, also George (Jorge in Japanese) does not exist in the manga. He was purely a filler character in the anime added in for comic relief.
Sayaka reminds me... It's been a while since I read the manga. Is the house fire section in the manga? And how was it done, since Sayaka had a different role?
Quote from: talonmalon333 on June 15, 2011, 03:22:41 PM
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on June 14, 2011, 08:10:41 PM
The beginning of the manga has a lot of short stories with Yusuke's adventures as a ghost that were never featured in the anime (the anime condensed it down to the bare-minimum and only included parts that had some bearing on the plot). There was even a side character called Sayaka who was featured in both the manga and the anime but was given a completely different role in the anime. In the manga she was the spirit of a dead girl who was playing with a little boy who could see ghosts but was also risking turning him into a ghost so they could play forever or something of the sort, and Yusuke had to stop her. In the anime she is sent by Spirit World to monitor Yusuke's mom and his friends to see if they really want him back and if he indeed should be brought back to life, and of course she had to monitor Yusuke's behavior himself. Aside from the beginning, there were a few short stories both in the middle and at the end of the manga that were cut out. The most notable one removed was Hiei and Kurma's past featuring how they first met. Though, I do believe that there was an audio CD released that contained that story voice acted out by the original seiyuu from the anime (I listened to it on youtube once).
Oh yeah, also George (Jorge in Japanese) does not exist in the manga. He was purely a filler character in the anime added in for comic relief.
Sayaka reminds me... It's been a while since I read the manga. Is the house fire section in the manga? And how was it done, since Sayaka had a different role?
Koenma interferes directly and opens a path for the flames. He does his in exchange of some "virtue" of Yusuke's. The same result happens, Yusuke loses all the good deeds he had done up to that point, it just doesn't have anything to do with the Spirit Egg.
Did you guys know FUNimation is finally dubbing the OVAs and one of the movies?
You got a link to this bad boy?
I wanna read up.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on June 28, 2011, 02:57:55 PM
Did you guys know FUNimation is finally dubbing the OVAs and one of the movies?
Hopefully they don't pull the same shit that happened with the Trigun movie. Y'know, how the dub has completely different actors from the TV series. :unimpressed:
Quote from: Desensitized on June 28, 2011, 03:16:06 PM
You got a link to this bad boy?
I wanna read up.
I just found it by typing something like "Yu Yu Hakusho funimation" into YouTube, I think.
Quote from: Foggle on June 28, 2011, 03:17:20 PMHopefully they don't pull the same shit that happened with the Trigun movie. Y'know, how the dub has completely different actors from the TV series. :unimpressed:
I think it was supposedly reported by Justin Cook, so... ;)
Quote from: Foggle on June 28, 2011, 03:17:20 PM
Quote from: talonmalon333 on June 28, 2011, 02:57:55 PM
Did you guys know FUNimation is finally dubbing the OVAs and one of the movies?
Hopefully they don't pull the same shit that happened with the Trigun movie. Y'know, how the dub has completely different actors from the TV series. :unimpressed:
Still annoyed at this.
In that case, you got some false information. If you look a few pages back, there is a link to that youtube video where Justin Cook V-Logs about Yu Yu Hakusho and the (back then) upcoming Blu-Ray releases. All he said was that they had tried to dub the OVAs earlier (he didn't mention anything about the movies) but ended up cancelling the project because a lot of the VAs sounded way too different than they used to since their voices had changed over time, and also because the OVAs were only composed of a few bonus material scenes so it wasn't really worth it to churn that out as a full release, itself. As far as re-dubbing goes, Cook said that they would be re-dubbing certain lines in the show for the Blu-Ray releases, and some minor characters would be completely redone entirely (such as Sniper, for example), in order to make the more flat sounding parts of the dub sound more natural, so that the Blu-Ray releases would be the most refined version of the English audio track rather than just a half-assed port from the DVDs (its reasons like this that I still love FUNimation, and can forgive them for the occasional disappointments they bring up such as cancelling the Higurashi license).
Anyways, while I would love to see them dub the full movie, not because its a good movie (because its as average as an animated movie can possibly get), but because I would like to hear the awesome English voice cast voicing new lines for classic character roles of theirs, its basically not going to happen for the same reasons that they couldn't dub the much smaller OVAs. The voices just aren't even there anymore, for the most part (or at least according to Cook).
Quote from: talonmalon333 on June 28, 2011, 02:57:55 PM
Did you guys know FUNimation is finally dubbing the OVAs and one of the movies?
:swoon:
Assuming you mean Poltergeist Report, I can't wait to relive the parts:
-Kurama vs his old friend. This part could honest be up their with any of Kurama's best fights and in an actually overall good Yu yu Hakusho movie, it would fit in perfectly. In that fight, it's like you are being taken out of a mediocre film and put into a great one. How they have a complete nobody demon mentally and emotionally attack something Kurama regrets in his past is just incredible. He messed with his memories and everything. Not to mention that the friend the demon imitates has a badass power. I love watching that. Last, how Kurama ended up beating him by finding out that he's really his old friend was so clever. Seriously, the entire fight is flawless.
-Kuwabara's bout. Besides when he broke out of that demon from Chapter Black's dimension, this is the only scene of his I like. I loved how he used brains AND brawn to beat that copy cat demon (hmm, are him and the demon Kurama related or something? Just thought about that) Anyway, getting the demon to use all of his energy and then whooping his ass with physical strength was badass. I think that reflects well with how much smarter Kuwabara got after Chapter Black. Unfortunately, he never fought again after hitting the books. If Kuwabara came back like he was in Poltergeist Report, I would actually like the character.
-The scene where Yusuke was walking to stop the demons and then his friends come out of alleyways and what not to join up with him. It was like a scene out of a badass old school movie like The Warriors.
I know I went over this all like 2 or 3 other times but I can't resist. Those moments hold up well with some of the best from the series. Too bad the rest of the movie is mediocre and has a generic plot and overpowered main villain. That and how Yusuke's personality is completely gone. That's the number one thing Funimation can fix. Justin Cook needs to basically make fun of the main villain for 80 minutes. :sly:
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on June 28, 2011, 04:33:25 PM
In that case, you got some false information. If you look a few pages back, there is a link to that youtube video where Justin Cook V-Logs about Yu Yu Hakusho and the (back then) upcoming Blu-Ray releases. All he said was that they had tried to dub the OVAs earlier (he didn't mention anything about the movies) but ended up cancelling the project because a lot of the VAs sounded way too different than they used to since their voices had changed over time, and also because the OVAs were only composed of a few bonus material scenes so it wasn't really worth it to churn that out as a full release, itself. As far as re-dubbing goes, Cook said that they would be re-dubbing certain lines in the show for the Blu-Ray releases, and some minor characters would be completely redone entirely (such as Sniper, for example), in order to make the more flat sounding parts of the dub sound more natural, so that the Blu-Ray releases would be the most refined version of the English audio track rather than just a half-assed port from the DVDs (its reasons like this that I still love FUNimation, and can forgive them for the occasional disappointments they bring up such as cancelling the Higurashi license).
Anyways, while I would love to see them dub the full movie, not because its a good movie (because its as average as an animated movie can possibly get), but because I would like to hear the awesome English voice cast voicing new lines for classic character roles of theirs, its basically not going to happen for the same reasons that they couldn't dub the much smaller OVAs. The voices just aren't even there anymore, for the most part (or at least according to Cook).
Can't believe I thought talon was a reliable source
That was amazing, GSF. :lol: :lol: :lol:
All in the span of 5 minutes too.
Quote from: Foggle on June 28, 2011, 04:56:10 PM
That was amazing, GSF. :lol: :lol: :lol:
:D :D What can I say?
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on June 28, 2011, 04:33:25 PM
In that case, you got some false information. If you look a few pages back, there is a link to that youtube video where Justin Cook V-Logs about Yu Yu Hakusho and the (back then) upcoming Blu-Ray releases. All he said was that they had tried to dub the OVAs earlier (he didn't mention anything about the movies) but ended up cancelling the project because a lot of the VAs sounded way too different than they used to since their voices had changed over time, and also because the OVAs were only composed of a few bonus material scenes so it wasn't really worth it to churn that out as a full release, itself. As far as re-dubbing goes, Cook said that they would be re-dubbing certain lines in the show for the Blu-Ray releases, and some minor characters would be completely redone entirely (such as Sniper, for example), in order to make the more flat sounding parts of the dub sound more natural, so that the Blu-Ray releases would be the most refined version of the English audio track rather than just a half-assed port from the DVDs (its reasons like this that I still love FUNimation, and can forgive them for the occasional disappointments they bring up such as cancelling the Higurashi license).
Anyways, while I would love to see them dub the full movie, not because its a good movie (because its as average as an animated movie can possibly get), but because I would like to hear the awesome English voice cast voicing new lines for classic character roles of theirs, its basically not going to happen for the same reasons that they couldn't dub the much smaller OVAs. The voices just aren't even there anymore, for the most part (or at least according to Cook).
... Darn it. :P
Should have known better. As for the part about redubbing things, I'm all for that. Much as I like the dub, some parts do feel lazy.
Quote from: gunswordfist on June 28, 2011, 04:49:18 PM
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on June 28, 2011, 04:33:25 PM
In that case, you got some false information. If you look a few pages back, there is a link to that youtube video where Justin Cook V-Logs about Yu Yu Hakusho and the (back then) upcoming Blu-Ray releases. All he said was that they had tried to dub the OVAs earlier (he didn't mention anything about the movies) but ended up cancelling the project because a lot of the VAs sounded way too different than they used to since their voices had changed over time, and also because the OVAs were only composed of a few bonus material scenes so it wasn't really worth it to churn that out as a full release, itself. As far as re-dubbing goes, Cook said that they would be re-dubbing certain lines in the show for the Blu-Ray releases, and some minor characters would be completely redone entirely (such as Sniper, for example), in order to make the more flat sounding parts of the dub sound more natural, so that the Blu-Ray releases would be the most refined version of the English audio track rather than just a half-assed port from the DVDs (its reasons like this that I still love FUNimation, and can forgive them for the occasional disappointments they bring up such as cancelling the Higurashi license).
Anyways, while I would love to see them dub the full movie, not because its a good movie (because its as average as an animated movie can possibly get), but because I would like to hear the awesome English voice cast voicing new lines for classic character roles of theirs, its basically not going to happen for the same reasons that they couldn't dub the much smaller OVAs. The voices just aren't even there anymore, for the most part (or at least according to Cook).
Can't believe I thought talon was a reliable source
You know what? This could have been a pretty good insult. But the fact that you already made a retard of yourself BEFORE posting it completely ruins any chances. Seriously, I don't know why I know you.
You don't know why you know me? You were doing good up until the creepy stalker comment
So I finished reading the manga (I never read the ending of the manga before other than the last chapter for comparison purposes) and... Yeah, disappointment city.
By the time we met the first Spirit Detective, Togashi was done. He lost all interest at that exact moment. The ideas leading up to the arc were great, and even a lot of the concepts were great. The problem? Pretty much nothing was actually explored, everything was rushed through, and the art gets downright embarrassing. Also right after the chapter Yusuke begins to fight Yomi everything feels... wrong. Not only does it seem like it's a totally different manga (holy jarring transitions, Batman), but if I didn't watch the anime (which fleshed this stuff out a heck of a lot more) I would probably be totally lost. Also, the ending was really cheesy (And Yusuke's Keiko line was too OOC even for the mood he was trying to set up) and again, didn't seem to flow properly into the rest of the series.
Yomi isn't explored at all. We don't know what really made him change (The "losing my light" line would work with most other writers, but not for someone who just killed off Shinobu Sensui), just that he does. Then he changes again because I guess demon logic, and we leave him mid-fight with Yusuke. That's it, no further development.
Kurama's relationship isn't explained in the slightest beyond "Yo, I fmessed that dude up when I was a jerk!" and Kurama isn't fleshed out at all in this arc. People complain about Kuwabara not being here, well Kurama might as well not even be here.
And the biggest annoyance to me is Togashi's attempt at a twist where he tried to put out the Spirit World "brainwashing" demons to attack humans against their will and the implication that Yusuke might have actually fought and killed them. This is demeaning to every single thing that happened pre-Chapter Black, especially considering everyone Yusuke fought was already an immensely powerful force that had reputations in the demon world long before he came making this highly dubious at best. It's a very, very, very weak attempt at a twist and I'm glad it was removed in the anime because it's beyond stupid. Yusuke's fight with Gouki, Hiei and (sorta) Kurama in the Artifacts arc already revealed that demon's totally hated and wanted to kill humans. Brainwashing demons when you have beasts like Rando, Hiei, and Toguro running around is a waste of time and makes no sense whatsoever.
He obviously just didn't care any more.
It's not all bad, Hiei was the only one really given proper focus in the Three Kings arc where he wasn't just odd (Yusuke was weird in a lot of these chapters), pointless (Kurama's plotless training journey!) or simply not used (Kuwabara's absence was given a lot more weight in the anime, I'm not sure why he was treated so lamely here) and his backstory fills in all the gaps, and how it even affected Mukuro (By FAR the most developed of the Three Kings who even has a good backstory herself) leading to how much he has changed since back then.
I like the arc in the anime despite its issues... but I'm sorry this was sub par work in the manga. If I was his editor I would have either kicked his butt to do better, or made him end it (which I'm thinking ended up happening) as this is just not up to par at all.
Man, reading that really killed my buzz. I was hoping it would at least be close to what the anime offered, but the staff really dragged this arc out of the mud here. I'm willing to give the anime arc more respect here. Not only did they finish Togashi's own work for him properly, but made it feel like YYH whereas in the manga I don't get that feeling at all.
Sorry for the manga-related rant, but that was a real disappointment.
I read the arc in the manga myself a few years ago through scans, and yeah, its pretty fucking stupid. Togashi quite obviously gave up on YYH after the Chapter Black arc and I'm almost positive that he was actually TRYING to get cancelled. In fact, I read somewhere that he originally wanted to end the manga after the Chapter Black arc but YYH was at the height of its popularity at that point in time so the editing staff at SJ wouldn't let him end it, so then he gave us half-assed work from that point on. Seeing how the Three Kings arc turned out in the manga....yeah, I have NO problem believing that at all, even without a proper source.
And you're absolutely right about the anime. I actually find the Three Kings arc in the anime to be quite underrated. Its definitely rushed in its own right but compared to the manga, the Three Kings arc in the anime is like a blessing. I praise the anime writers to the highest magnitude for managing to fix the drek that Togashi churned out with the final arc of YYH. Sure, its not perfect (which is unavoidable given what its based off of), but they made A LOT of smart changes and added in a lot of content to flesh out the arc. The rest of Togashi's manga is brilliant but the Three Kings are is literally the only thing that I would advise anyone to avoid reading if they can. On the whole, though, I think the YYH anime was superior to the manga because it took Togashi's brilliant ideas and characters and fleshed them out even more to make an already great series even better. :thumbup:
The same goes for the Hunter X Hunter and Level TV series (as well as the first HXH OVA; but not the Greed Island OVAs).
It was my least favorite arc in the anime, but now that I see the source material... Togashi is really lucky he got people who cared behind this show.
They even made the ending moments far better. Yusuke showing up when he does (Sorry, but everything he did in the manga when he came back from Demon World was OOC and stupid) making it more emotional (especially the clever way the Yomi fight transitioned into the central theme of the arc and when the team separates) while successfully exploring Togashi's half thought out ideas. I give it even more respect than I gave it before.
I mean, it's not perfect. At its core there are fundamental annoyances that no amount of polish could really fix, but giving Raizen, Yomi, and Mukuro more character helped a lot with the arc as well as, well... finishing the stupid tournament!
I still don't like the tournament (remember when Togashi came up with the whole band idea and then never used it once? What the heck was that?) in principle, but considering the theme of the arc and how much the team managed to salvage what was there (Shura isn't wasted space and makes sense now!) and make it fit in with the rest of the series definitely makes me appreciate it more.
lol @ Kurama training
Quote from: gunswordfist on July 04, 2011, 06:44:30 PM
lol @ Kurama training
He trains others but never actually trains himself once, yet his power is somehow in S rank. Hiei makes sense, Kurama doesn't. Again, that's the type of thing those annoying bishies in other series get stronger (see: Bleach or any other generic anime) but not something like YYH.
I stopped watching the anime shortly after the Togoro arc as I felt that was the perfect way to end the series. I do have the DVD of the episodes that follow the end of Togoro arc as well, but it didn't really grab me to go any further.
Quote from: Eddy on July 05, 2011, 03:10:30 PM
I stopped watching the anime shortly after the Togoro arc as I felt that was the perfect way to end the series. I do have the DVD of the episodes that follow the end of Togoro arc as well, but it didn't really grab me to go any further.
Chapter Black is awesome, man! It has by far the best villain in the series, it has a completely unique idea, and has some absolutely fantastic moments and twists. It's pretty much like the Spirit Detective arc, but turned on its head and made it more about just battles but also about using your head and thinking your way through situations. If you haven't watched the full arc, I recommend it fully. I think your opinion might change a bit, especially by the time you meet Kazuya.
Maybe I'll check it out sometime then!
Heh, That's sort of the problem, a lot of people stopped watching or lost interest in YYH after the Toguro arc because after a big epic tournament arc things seemed to slow down. However despite a somewhat slow start the Chapter Black arc proves to be the best arc in the series by far, IMO. It has by far the best writing and it easily has the best and most complex villain in the show, Sensui. I actually love how it throws the heroes for a loop by having enemies that are far weaker than them for the most part but are constantly outwitting them every step of the way. To me its by far the most interesting arc in the series, and personally I feel that had Togashi wanted to end the series, doing so after the CB arc (though with a slightly different ending that would actually wrap things up) would make for the perfect ending if anything.
Its a shame that most people gave up on this arc with just the first few episodes before Sensui actually appears.
I will say however that the show goes noticeably downhill with the Three Kings arc, but at least in the anime it makes sense and is watchable (I'd even go so far as to say that its still good if you can look past its flaws). On the other hand, that arc was just pulled straight out of Togashi's ass in the manga.
Yeah, it's not really a "fighting" arc, but it does have plenty of battles and plot. Chapter Black was really what solidified this show as awesome to me.
Quote from: Eddy on July 05, 2011, 03:10:30 PM
I stopped watching the anime shortly after the Togoro arc as I felt that was the perfect way to end the series. I do have the DVD of the episodes that follow the end of Togoro arc as well, but it didn't really grab me to go any further.
Que EK giving a preacher length speech
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 05, 2011, 05:44:11 PM
Heh, That's sort of the problem, a lot of people stopped watching or lost interest in YYH after the Toguro arc because after a big epic tournament arc things seemed to slow down. However despite a somewhat slow start the Chapter Black arc proves to be the best arc in the series by far, IMO. It has by far the best writing and it easily has the best and most complex villain in the show, Sensui. I actually love how it throws the heroes for a loop by having enemies that are far weaker than them for the most part but are constantly outwitting them every step of the way. To me its bay far the most interesting arc in the series, and personally I feel that had Togashi wanted to end the series, doing so after the CB arc (though with a slightly different ending that would actually wrap things up) would make for the perfect ending if anything.
How would you imagine it ending, if it were 3 arcs?
This should be good. *grabs popcorn*
Quote from: gunswordfist on July 06, 2011, 10:27:16 AM
This should be good. *grabs popcorn*
You should be good, too. Point is, you're not. You suck.
I'd give you my own alternate ending, but you know, my point was kind of that it would be Togashi's job to do that. I think Desensitized put it best himself in an earlier post for the Chapter Black arc, but I'll apply it to the series in general: Nobody can do an alternate ending for YYH except for Togashi (and also those guys that both me and Desensitized actually said DID do a better alternate ending than Togashi, but for the sake of being lazy I'm going to pretend that we never said that), because YYH is pure Togashi. The thing is, the guy has his own unique style of story-telling that no other writer in the world can match because its purely his stuff.
And when you try to shamelessly rip off his stuff you get Bleach. :>
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 06, 2011, 02:08:43 PM
And when you try to shamelessly rip off his stuff you get Bleach.
I know this is probably a lot to ask, but I've never really seen much of Bleach outside of a few clips that made it look like Naruto with older kids, so how, exactly, does it rip off YYH? I've been curious as to this for awhile.
It doesn't really. Even though I hate the show I actually defend it as not being a rip-off of YYH as much as it rips off every shonen series in general (basically its a combination of every generic shonen cliche in the book). I only say stuff like that to piss off GSF because I know that he's a fan of the show and I want to rub it in his face that it sucks. :sly:
Well, in terms of ripping YYH off, though, according to Desensitized, the current arc in the manga seriously rips off YYH's Chapter Black arc, though you'd have to ask Desensitized about that to get the specifics of what exactly it rips off.
Well, the ending of the YYH manga essentially was the same as the manga, it just was presented and executed better. It wasn't really that hard, since Togashi had one foot out the door for the entire arc, the anime staff clearly really loved the series and they took his ideas and presented them better. If he wasn't so lazy, he could probably have done it himself, but here we are.
As for Bleach, it's not a rip off, but Kubo has been sidling a little too close to YYH this arc. Territories (one of which is a video game power), a human villain who seems to want to destroy humanity by some means (this wouldn't bother me if the villain wasn't basically Sensui, even recruiting humans who hate people to do it), and the main character's strength means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. Alone these wouldn't bother me, but together, and the fact Kubo is a Togashi fan, the way the arc has been unfolding rubs me the complete wrong way. At least before, his generic stuff was his stuff, now he's taking ideas from someone else and applying them almost unchanged to his own.
Was it ever officially stated anywhere that Kubo was a fan of Togashi? I'm just curious, because I've heard people say this before (and I wouldn't have a hard time believing it myself), but I've never seen that he actually stated such to be the case, anywhere. That said, there's certainly no way that I would believe that he hasn't ever read or seen anything by Togashi, because he quite clearly has had to in order to get Bleach published by WSJ in the first place (the first time he tried to get Bleach serialized they initially rejected his manuscript because it was too similar to YYH; so I know that much for sure).
I can only vouch for the first part of Bleach where they have a guy who can see spirits, then meets a shinigami and they team up to do Monster of the Week mixed with Quantum Leap (protagonist can possess a person's body) ghostbusting while trying to keep it a secret from friends and family, who discover they have powers too. YYH manga devotes quite a bit of volume 1 to this activity although the part where Yusuke returns to being human came sooner than I expected.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 06, 2011, 02:08:43 PM
I'd give you my own alternate ending, but you know, my point was kind of that it would be Togashi's job to do that. I think Desensitized put it best himself in an earlier post for the Chapter Black arc, but I'll apply it to the series in general: Nobody can do an alternate ending for YYH except for Togashi (and also those guys that both me and Desensitized actually said DID do a better alternate ending than Togashi, but for the sake of being lazy I'm going to pretend that we never said that), because YYH is pure Togashi. The thing is, the guy has his own unique style of story-telling that no other writer in the world can match because its purely his stuff.
And when you try to shamelessly rip off his stuff you get Bleach. :>
I still remember the day I told you Bleach ripped off Yu yu Hakusho
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 06, 2011, 03:43:42 PM
Was it ever officially stated anywhere that Kubo was a fan of Togashi? I'm just curious, because I've heard people say this before (and I wouldn't have a hard time believing it myself), but I've never seen that he actually stated such to be the case, anywhere. That said, there's certainly no way that I would believe that he hasn't ever read or seen anything by Togashi, because he quite clearly has had to in order to get Bleach published by WSJ in the first place (the first time he tried to get Bleach serialized they initially rejected his manuscript because it was too similar to YYH; so I know that much for sure).
I'm not good with sourcing anime news, but I'm pretty sure there was an interview that asked for his inspiration or whatever, and it was Togashi, Toriyama, and a third mangaka I can't remember. Either way, those are usually the stock answers. So he probably was inspired by Togashi in some way. I'm usually the last to ever scream rip off, because I know most people don't do it intentionally, but I don't think anyone is telling Kubo that this arc is treading a thin line.
If the mansion that was just revealed in the current arc turns out to have some sort of "quiz" or "puzzle" element outside of a fight, then something screwy is going on.
Well, the Bleach fillers already ripped off the whole "puzzle mansion" thing from YYH, so it'd be redundant for Kubo to rip that part off himself.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 06, 2011, 06:50:08 PM
Well, the Bleach fillers already ripped off the whole "puzzle mansion" thing from YYH, so it'd be redundant for Kubo to rip that part off himself.
I haven't seen that filler but apparently this mansion is designed extraordinarily similar to that one according to the fans.
Huh.
Eh, just more Kubo trollin'.
So, yeah, this series made the top 10 in AR's list of the top 65 cartoons of all time. WOO-HOO! Let's party. This series finally got acknowledged in a list of great cartoons.
Seriously, though, I don't think that I have EVER seen this series acknowledged in ANY collaborative list of this sort before. Even in a list only comprised of anime it gets shunned by critics just because its a shonen series. I never understood why this series gets looked down upon by some anime watchers as generic shonen stuff when it clearly uses cliches but to its advantage and excels with great writing. Yeah, its nothing super-unique until the Chapter Black arc, but even then it was always handled with great writing, yet so many so-called anime critics fail to acknowledge that. In fact, JO is the first anime critic that I have seen that gives this show the props that it deserves, knowing full-well that its totally a shonen-action show but that it is the best of its kind in that regard.
Anyways, I couldn't rightfully call it the best anime of all-time with other series that are probably more influential being out there, but is it wrong for me to call it my favorite anime of all-time? Yeah, its a shonen when you get down to it, and it can't compete with the style of Cowboy Bebop or the depth of Neon Genesis Evangelion, but being viewed on its own its a damn good action series with complex characters and great story-telling. I certainly can't fault it for being so good at that, myself.
I'm sure that series like Legend of the Galactic Heroes are far superior (and I plan to continue watching that when I get the chance), but this may very well be my most-watched anime for the rest of my life. Even if I completely stop watching anime and cartoons altogether, I have a feeling that I'll never forget about this series.
Few anime beat it in consistency, plotting and dialogue, and general accessibility, though. I'd say other than Cowboy Bebop and the original Dragon Ball, there are few gateway drugs as good as this is.
Also a fighting anime where the fights usually involve proper strategy are always more interesting to watch and would most likely interest those who might not like shonen.
Not to sell DBZ short in that area, but most post-Freeza fights are boring as hell.
I remember some site said that Yusuke had an average anime voice and I think he said that the Dark Tournament is a generic anime arc. Thankfully it wasn't a popular site
So, would anyone be interested in doing specific episode discussions? I wouldn't do it for every episode in this series, but it'd be interesting to hear some people's thoughts on key episodes in the series.
For example, what do people think of episode 1?
I still find it to be one of the strongest, most memorable, and most unique openings to any shonen series (or any series in general) ever. I'll go more into detail about it later, but one thing I want to mention that I like was the presentation of Yusuke's relation with his mother. Its a nice subtle touch but what makes it stand out is that its not a generic "shonen hero with no mom or dad that doesn't even address the existence of his or her parents." Its not played out in any cliche sort of manner to try and get you to feel sorry for the character in that regard. I find it both hilarious and oddly refreshing that Yusuke's mom is just and irresponsible drunk, and the fact that (with the exception of the manga), Yusuke's dad is basically just some random guy that left his mom after a one-night-stand or something of the sort. It just feels oddly not kid-friendly for a family situation for a main protagonist of a shonen and I kind of like that quality about it, but its just a very minor, subtle thing and I'm probably looking too much into it.
Of course the main reason for why I love the episode so much is that it starts out with the main character literally being KILLED right at the very start of the show. Then he's a ghost and gets to reflect on the events leading up to the fateful car accident, and through the flash-back we get to know plenty about him and the people who hold any semblance of significance in his life though some brilliant characterization. I challenge anyone else to come up with a first episode from any other battle shonen series that is either as unique or just as downright good and engaging as YYH's first episode. Quite frankly I don't think that its possible.
The first episode is the best possible way to start a show. With a hell of a hook. The main character is dead. How did it happen? What's gonna happen next?
A lot happens in this one episode that it's enough to get you invested in the story and the world. First episodes are rarely this good nowadays.
I have the entire episode memorized at this point. It's still one of the best debut episodes in any series that I can recall.
Some of it is interesting to think abut after watching the whole thing in full, though. Like Kuwabara crying at Yusuke's funeral. Something you wouldn't expect from when we met earlier in the ep, but becomes more apparent after getting so accustomed to the character.
That warrants a rewatch for me
Alright, how about episode 7? Gouki and Kurama:
The first half of the episode is kind of a basic defeat the villain sort of deal as Yusuke cleverly takes down Gouki in a rematch. However the 2nd half of the episode is definitely more memorable stuff. It is revealed to first time viewers as a surprise that Kurama is not a villain, or at least it seems so. He offers to give Yusuke the treasure of the Forlorn hope with no catch attached to the deal, except just for letting him use it for one night to give up his life to save his mother. In half an episode we get so much great characterization for my favorite character in the series. Kurama explains that he used to be a villain as a demon, and then got chased down and in a near death state inhabited the body of a yet to be born fetus in a pregnant woman, and thus growing up as a human boy and developing feelings for his human mother. Its both a touching and really interesting story and it makes Kurama easy to sympathize with and like as a character. Yusuke's interference at the end allowing for Kurama's life to be spared also comes off as a really touching moment in its own way, even though Yusuke was being a total idiot when he did that.
Overall, its a good episode in terms of introducing a new character, and it holds some significance for me since Kurama grew to be my favorite character in the entire series.
The fight was great in the traditional YYH way, in how it was about technique and not strength. But I also enjoyed Kurama's story, and how Yusuke tried relating to it in his own way. The two had a pretty good chemistry with each other throughout the series in how similar they are despite their different origins.
I think it was the first time we were told that maybe there was more to these demons than just mindless killing machines, which factored in pretty heavily later on.
You guys are making me think about buying this whole series off Amazon.
THANKS YA JERKS :srs:
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 10, 2011, 09:39:46 PM
Alright, how about episode 7? Gouki and Kurama:
The first half of the episode is kind of a basic defeat the villain sort of deal as Yusuke cleverly takes down Gouki in a rematch. However the 2nd half of the episode is definitely more memorable stuff. It is revealed to first time viewers as a surprise that Kurama is not a villain, or at least it seems so. He offers to give Yusuke the treasure of the Forlorn hope with no catch attached to the deal, except just for letting him use it for one night to give up his life to save his mother. In half an episode we get so much great characterization for my favorite character in the series. Kurama explains that he used to be a villain as a demon, and then got chased down and in a near death state inhabited the body of a yet to be born fetus in a pregnant woman, and thus growing up as a human boy and developing feelings for his human mother. Its both a touching and really interesting story and it makes Kurama easy to sympathize with and like as a character. Yusuke's interference at the end allowing for Kurama's life to be spared also comes off as a really touching moment in its own way, even though Yusuke was being a total idiot when he did that.
Overall, its a good episode in terms of introducing a new character, and it holds some significance for me since Kurama grew to be my favorite character in the entire series.
Oh yeah, how could I forget that Kurama wanted to sacrifice himself in his first appearance.
Episode 7 was good at introducing Kurama's human side. I do believe that the ongoing debate between the existence of the human world and spirit world was one of the key parts of the series, and Kurama being so deeply tied to both was a brilliant touch to it. Right away, he had arguably the strongest ties to both worlds at once, and discovering his story helped to add shades to his character that was missing in demon characters at that time in the show. Really good stuff.
And yeah, the fight between Yusuke and Gouki was pretty cool, too.
Quote from: Eddy on July 11, 2011, 02:37:02 AM
You guys are making me think about buying this whole series off Amazon.
THANKS YA JERKS :srs:
If you do get it, let us know how the Blu-Ray is. :swoon:
After seeing Greg X's post with his opinions on the shows ranked on our list, I saw that he didn't care for this show and never got its appeal. That's all fine, but it sort of got me to think about another subject that I have been pondering about for a while.
We basically know that action shonen series are Japan's equivalents of what comic-book superheroes are to us westerners. That's not to say that its the same thing, because both genres are very different, but they do share core elements of good guys and bad guy, special powers and/or abilities, and general core elements of a story involving action of this sort and the like. However there are a ton of key things that separates shonen manga/anime from superhero comics/cartoons. Now, I would post this discussion question in the shonen thread but then it'd just come down to superhero cartoons are superior on the whole (there are a lot more crappy shonen that I can think of than superhero cartoons, and a lot less brilliant ones than superhero cartoons as well).
However, being that most of us here consider YYH to be one of the best (if not THE best) of the shonen genre, how do you guys feel that it stacks up to a great superhero cartoon? Obviously it can never come close to being compared to the level of influence of something like BTAS and its pacing, while amazing for its own genre, would feel too slow to someone born and raised on the more episodic and consistent western comic book cartoons.
That said, as someone who grew up on both types of series, I can appreciate their vastly different styles of story-telling and action. Western shows are a bit better with treating their audience with more intelligence and not going overboard with exposition, instead giving you necessary information and keeping the dialogue to a minimum in that area (while letting the audience make implications for themselves when they can), allowing more time for action and progression of the story. Also the fights are much more well-choreographed and fluid, and this is primarily because western cartoons don't spend any time on actually having to explain abilities. On the flip side, its a trademark of shonen to extensively explain abilities and have strategy written into their fights that get explained by side-line characters. Unfortunately this inevitably slows down the action, but when this is done right it makes for VERY, VERY interesting battles, even if they do take up the better portion of a few episodes at times. I think YYH is masterful at this element of battles, personally, and thus it makes up for its weak animation quality when it comes to animating its fights.
Now, as for the actual story and writing, aside from the first handful of episodes with Yusuke as a ghost, the rest of the Spirit Detective arc is decent but mostly on the average side of things compared to the rest of the series. The Dark Tournament arc would at first be a hard sell to anyone used to the episodic or short-arc based plots of superhero cartoons. I mean, after-all, 40+ episodes are spent on one tournament. That said, the actual content within the tournament is full of REALLY, REALLY good writing, characterization, and plotting. There is a story going on between the intense battles, and the battles themselves are full of strategy and are well-written (yes, you heard me write, these battles actually have good writing put into them). This keeps the show constantly entertaining.
And of course, the Chapter Black arc does something completely different than anything scene before, both within the series itself and within the genre as a whole. I'll say it right here and now: I think that on a level of sheer quality, its hard to argue that the Chapter Black arc is good enough to be on par with any of the best superhero cartoons. I'd go as far as to say that Togashi at his best is just as good of a writer as Greg Weisman is. I'm sure a lot of people would find that statement to be overpraising Togashi and YYH, but I personally think that its true, and this is coming from a HUGE fan of Gargoyles and The Spectacular Spider-Man, so take that for what you will.
Of course, with the various differences in story-telling and overall style that YYH and other shonen bring, its very understandable why some people born and raised on great western animation can't find any appeal in it, and its fair enough to view things that way. Even so, since I was raised on both western animation and shonen anime, and also because I have looked at the flaws of both types of animated shows when I re-watch them and take off my nostalgia goggles, I can safely say that while I do have a ton of bias for YYH, on the whole I no longer have a huge bias towards either types of shows. Instead I judge mostly on a level of what I find to be quality story-telling and entertainment value, and I like a series like YYH just as much as Gargoyles and BTAS (actually, its my personal favorite action cartoon if you want to get technical, but I like all 3 series on a near equal level on the whole).
Anyways, that's my personal input in comparing these types of shows. I don't expect that many people would completely agree with me (especially if we were considering people other than members on this board), and I'm not denying some of my own personal biases, but its the way that I truly feel, so take my opinion for what its worth to you.
There aren't that many good superhero cartoons. Besides, imo, the old Superman shorts and Spider-Man And His Amazing Friends, there hasn't really been any good superhero cartoons before the 90s. Because of that, I think there are more good Shounen series by default, even though it's still not that many. I can name 20 on a good day while I can only barely scrap together a list of 10 good superhero cartoons.
Which genre is better is a different story though.
I can't say I agree with that. Aside from classics like Yu Yu Hakusho, Fist of the North Star, Dragon Ball, and even a few other classics that I haven't seen but still acknowledge like Ashita no Joe, I have trouble thinking of more than a few good modern shonen series.
Meanwhile, on the front of superhero cartoons, we've had plenty of good or at least decent shows both in recent years and the last decade in general. Young Justice is easily the best currently running cartoon around, period (well IMO, anways), Avengers: EMH got off to a slow start but picked up its pace and became pretty great by the 2nd half of its season, The Specatcular Spider-Man was great all of the way through, Batman the Brave and the Bold has been great from what I have seen of it, and while I was never too big on Unlimited, I still acknowledge its great writing and animation, and I also loved the first 2 seasons of the Justice League. I could name more good shows, but overall I have trouble thinking of any worthwhile action shonen series aside from One Piece, and even that doesn't really count since it started way back in the late 90's.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 14, 2011, 11:06:27 AM
I can't say I agree with that. Aside from classics like Yu Yu Hakusho, Fist of the North Star, Dragon Ball, and even a few other classics that I haven't seen but still acknowledge like Ashita no Joe, I have trouble thinking of more than a few good modern shonen series.
Meanwhile, on the front of superhero cartoons, we've had plenty of good or at least decent shows both in recent years and the last decade in general. Young Justice is easily the best currently running cartoon around, period (well IMO, anways), Avengers: EMH got off to a slow start but picked up its pace and became pretty great by the 2nd half of its season, The Specatcular Spider-Man was great all of the way through, Batman the Brave and the Bold has been great from what I have seen of it, and while I was never too big on Unlimited, I still acknowledge its great writing and animation, and I also loved the first 2 seasons of the Justice League. I could name more good shows, but overall I have trouble thinking of any worthwhile action shonen series aside from One Piece, and even that doesn't really count since it started way back in the late 90's.
You didn't name any pre90s superhero cartoons which is part of my point.
I like all those superhero shows except for the two you know I don't care for. Also, I wouldn't count Young Justice yet. It's in the warm up phase like JL was. We all know it will get better but can't give it points for something that hasn't happened yet.
Shounen has more series simply because Japan shits out more. This isn't a quality argument yet. My stretch of favorite shounen goes for the 70s to whenever FMAB ended. As for superhero cartoons, it's just the said Spider-man and Superman classics and some DC cartoons and the occasional good Marvel shows.
I think you just missed the point, though. You're going on about how there aren't any good pre-90's superhero cartoons whereas there are good pre-90's shonen series. That's very true, but my point was that aside from those classics, can you think of ANY good post 90's action shonen series?
There have been plenty of great superhero cartoons since BTAS's debut, thanks to its high level of influence on the genre. With shonen, we still pretty much only have the good classics and most of the modern stuff is crap. The thing is, there are just more good superhero cartoons out there than good shonen that I can think of. That is unless of course you somehow prefer shit like Bleach to gold like Batman: The Animated Series. Knowing you I wouldn't be too surprised if that was in-line with your taste. :>
Actually most of my favorite anime is from the 90s and up and there's only a few I like before that. Even with the few shounen I do like, it's still at least twice as much as the small amount DC and Marvel have. I bet you can only scrap together a list of 10 superhero cartoons worth watching while I can easily throw together a 20 post 80s shounen list with one hand tied behind my back.
Just shut up, gunswordfist. You're not impressing anyone.
By the way, not to be negative, but did anyone ever notice how... bad the art in this show is? I mean, at first glance it seems okay, but old. But recently, I've noticed little things that are just horrendous. For example, during Genkai's tournament, you have the scene where Koenma picks up the phone and it's King Enma... did anyone ever take a look at the ogres in the back?
Cheap animation will do that. They did great with what they had.
Not like there are scenes with characters missing a head or being distorted out of existence like many other long running shonen series.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on July 15, 2011, 11:09:24 AM
Just shut up, gunswordfist. You're not impressing anyone.
By the way, not to be negative, but did anyone ever notice how... bad the art in this show is? I mean, at first glance it seems okay, but old. But recently, I've noticed little things that are just horrendous. For example, during Genkai's tournament, you have the scene where Koenma picks up the phone and it's King Enma... did anyone ever take a look at the ogres in the back?
You've been a fan of this series for years and you only JUST noticed that? You're pretty slow, aren't you? :P
The Hiei vs Bui fight is one of the times where it's REALLY noticable.
I'd totally post screencaps if I had the right tools, 'cause that shit just looked trippy.
Quote from: Rynnec on July 15, 2011, 09:21:31 PM
The Hiei vs Bui fight is one of the times where it's REALLY noticable.
I'd totally post screencaps if I had the right tools, 'cause that shit just looked trippy.
Juggling?
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 15, 2011, 08:46:50 PM
Quote from: talonmalon333 on July 15, 2011, 11:09:24 AM
Just shut up, gunswordfist. You're not impressing anyone.
By the way, not to be negative, but did anyone ever notice how... bad the art in this show is? I mean, at first glance it seems okay, but old. But recently, I've noticed little things that are just horrendous. For example, during Genkai's tournament, you have the scene where Koenma picks up the phone and it's King Enma... did anyone ever take a look at the ogres in the back?
You've been a fan of this series for years and you only JUST noticed that? You're pretty slow, aren't you? :P
Not as slow as the guy who took a millennium to notice that post.
Most of the superhero cartoons I watched were aimed for kids so they tended to have "moral of the story" and also some kid peers involved in the action, much like how Rurouni Kenshin had to throw in Yahiko and Dragonball Z had Gohan. Not required though like with Spider-Man which had some nice voiceover monologue. Still enjoyed many of the characters who had the secret identities and transformed. Saturday mornings were the only times they showed new stuff, the rest of the week was all reruns. Serials were tough to follow so I don't know if YYH would have done well in comparison since main characters would disappear for some episodes and come back, while the cartoons got to pull from a big pool of Superfriends, Marvel, or Hanna Barbera characters.
I still like YYH gradually built up the arcs. The first season ones were practically episodic, but then the rescue arcs got longer and the characters still get introduced at a decent pace, not overwhelming you as with Bleach's 13 whatever generals.
D'oh I forgot that there wasn't much in the superhero cartoon offerings for teens, not until at least Batman and when The Simpsons brought cartoons back to prime time, and when violence of the non-generic explosion kind was allowed to be shown in cartoons.
http://www.amazon.com/Yu-Hakusho-OVA-Eizou/dp/B005HVWW6M/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1314565797&sr=8-13 (http://www.amazon.com/Yu-Hakusho-OVA-Eizou/dp/B005HVWW6M/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1314565797&sr=8-13)
Is this legit?
Sounds like recap stuff, at least according to ANN:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=3350
Maybe they'll have theme music like they did with the Burst Angel Infinity extras.
Eizou Hakusho isn't a recap. Its a set of bonus animation shorts and interviews with the original Seiyuu for YYH.
Also, that set is fake unless FUNimation themselves confirms such a release, and last time I checked Justin Cook actually indicated that dubbing the OVA got canceled entirely, while FUNimation has never shown any intention of dubbing the movie. It also doesn't make too much sense for them to package it in a set using the season 1 DVD cover skin (though someone certainly did a nice job of photo-shopping the YYH characters onto that set since this is obviously what was done to get that picture).
So, Justin Cook says (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1HxP5QeEf4&feature=g-all) we're getting Eizou Hakusho and the 30-minute OVA released by FUNimation in one DVD package.
As lame as the movie is and even though Eizou Hakusho is really mostly just a glorified clip show, the fact that FUNimation is even releasing any new material at all for YYH (new to the States, that is), is more than enough to get the fan in me ready to support the release just to show that there are still people out there who give a crap about the series. I wouldn't really recommend it to any casual fans of the show, but since its YYH I'll definitely be picking it up.
It'll be interesting to hear what the dub voices sound like after the VAs reprise their roles that they haven't played for so many years. Seriously, just hearing Justin Cook's snarky and foul-mouthed Yusuke again would be enough to make the shitty Golden Seal episode (I refuse to call it a movie) worth watching.
I'm getting it. Period.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on December 05, 2011, 05:36:11 PMshitty Golden Seal episode (I refuse to call it a movie)
"Episode" is also too much a compliment. :sly:
Quote from: talonmalon333 on December 05, 2011, 07:30:19 PM
I'm getting it. Period.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on December 05, 2011, 05:36:11 PMshitty Golden Seal episode (I refuse to call it a movie)
"Episode" is also too much a compliment. :sly:
:D Good one. Good to see the original voice actors coming back for one more. That alone is worth it.
So, I don't really have the money to pick-up the OVA right now, but I was wondering if anyone has gotten to hear the new dub for it? Really I'd totally ignore this release myself if it was just the Japanese version since the OVA isn't really anything special, but the damn nostalgia factor of getting to hear the same English dub VAs from FUNimation reprise their roles after so many years is enough for me to want to fork over the cash just to hear their newly recorded voices in something as small as a 30-minute special episode (which like I said before is shit, but its really the voices that I'm more interested in hearing). From what I've heard from other fans, most of the cast sounds almost exactly the same as they did 10 years ago, for better or worse, with the one exception of Chris Sabat who voices Kuwabara, since apparently he can't deliver that same voice that he did back in the day when FUNi was dubbing the YYH TV series, and honestly that doesn't bother me one bit seeing as how out of all of the voices from FUNi's dub of YYH, that was the weakest one, IMO.
At any rate, I've started re-reading the manga for this series because for some reason I can't go more than a year without having to take a look at something YYH-related, so I may just re-read the whole manga from start to finish and then end up re-watching the anime once again after I finish up with the manga, once again. To the show's credit I still think its one of the best shows that I've ever seen, personally, and whether it really deserved to be as high as it originally ranked on our top 65 list or not, its still one of my personal favorite cartoons ever, right along with Gargoyles, BTAS, and other great shows from my past.
OK, I found a video player that'll let me watch Yu yu Hakusho, which my bother downloaded every single episode of in the laptop he gave me. I'm going to start from episode 1. I missed some episodes including Bui's first appearance, when Hiei blew away that fire guy in the Dark Tournament, whatever episode Genkai got her mask cut off in said tournament, when Yusuke and Kuwabara fought that bald guy's team of demons, some of Yusuke vs Sensei (basically the part when they started flying around...oh and some of Yusuke vs Yomi) thanks to scratched up library DVDs, I missed bits of those two fights. Since a missed a decent amount of episodes, I'm sure watching them in order will give me a fresh perspective of the show. I can't wait. ;D
I watched the first 3 episodes and just finished the 3rd. Notes:
1. I forgot that the first person ghost Yusuke went to visit was that little boy he thought he saved.
2. I forgot that Yusuke died for no reason since the car was going to apparently swerve out of the way if Yusuke didn't try and save him.
3. They let Atsuko keep Yusuke's body in her house? Either this has something to do with a different culture or since my family rarely has deaths I'm just plain oblivious to this.
4. Didn't know Yusuke was that much of a pervert at the beginning of the series.
And like always, I like Yu yu Hakusho's slow beginning. I'll never understand the fuss.
Man, I haven't seen this series in a while. Last time I rewatched it through was summer 2010, but to be honest that whole thing was a blur and I poorly paced it. The last time I seriously rewatched it and was really into it was... a year before that, summer 2009. I need to come back to it someday. I'll probably wait till next year to give me more time to miss it. Probably will rewatch it in the summer again, as that's the point where I have the most free time and will be able to keep watching it at a regular pace. Cause when I'm doing anything (movies, games, anything), the less frequently I get to do it, the less into it I become, and the less likely I'll be to come back to it. When I break my schedule, my investment kinda breaks.
So yeah, I'm looking at summer 2013. Maybe by then I'll have the Blu-rays. And maybe FUNimation's dub of the first movie will be out.
EDIT: LOL. I'm slow. Looks like both the movie and Eizo Hakusho are already out and english dubbed. Well, I'll need to get 'em someday.
So, I finally got down to watching the Golden Seal dub from FUNimation. Its the same stupid filler-esque story-line that's completely uninspired as I remember it to be, and it really has no business being YYH-related in any way aside from just featuring the characters, but I have to admit that I watched this more out of the nostalgia factor for getting to hear the classic FUNimation VAs reprise their roles for a YYH product that they didn't dub before. What surprised me was how Yusuke, Kurama, Hiei, Koenma, and Botan sounded EXACTLY the same as they did about 10 years ago when FUNimation first started dubbing YYH. Its not like it was a tremendous amount of time between then and now, but I would've expected their voices to have changed a bit since then, yet the dub sounds like it could have been done back in 2001 and it wouldn't have felt off in the slightest. The only voice that sounds noticeably different from the dub of the TV series is Chris Sabat's voice as Kuwabara, which has the same general tone but sounds less "raspy" and more clear than in the old dub (and as far as I'm concerned, that's actually an improvement). So, overall the dub kicks ass, but of course its not enough to save a crappy little side-story that has no real purpose to it. That said, I'd love to see FUNimation dub the movie as well, even if that is also more like an over-sized filler-episode. I just like hearing the old English voices for the series that I grew up with.
By the way, I'd like to say something about part of this show. After thinking about it more over the years, does anyone else feel that the last season is really... meh? I mean sure, it's enjoyable, but it's by far my least favorite part of the show. And really, I can't call it anything better than "adequate". I just feel that it's stories are generally rushed, unnecessary, simply uninteresting, and in some cases, just kinda cheesy.
I do know that the manga's version is supposedly garbage (which I still haven't gotten to), but to me, that still doesn't excuse the anime version. The Demon World Tournament just isn't interesting until the final battle, which is admittedly pretty cool. But until that point, once you get over the nostalgia of the Dark Tournament similarities, it's just boring for me, and really makes me wish we got the full scale war that Togashi was building up to. What a copout. As for Kurama and Hiei's past, those stories had their perks. But I found the characters to be no less interesting before, when only bits and pieces of their past were known, and the rest was shrouded in mystery.
There are also little things about the final season that simply bother me. For example, Genkai training Jin's crew to be unbelievably powerful... I mean, what the heck? This makes no sense with the info we were already given previously in the show. Was Genkai simply holding back on Yusuke earlier? Another thing that bothered me was how commonplace "invincible" demons became. In the third season, Sensui's level of power was such a big deal. Hiei even said "His power is rare, even in Demon World". I truly believed that Sensui was the very best, and that no one would be able to surpass him... But then, what-do-ya-know? Everyone and their dog is tougher than the poor guy in Demon World. And the A class demons, which were built up to be so awesome and scary, turned out to be a bunch of lamos. It just destroys the entire buildup we got in the Chapter Black story, and it honestly dampens Sensui's impact.
And then there's Yusuke. Let me just put aside the out of the left field "Wait, what am I fighting for?" character development that's forced into the final battle. Remember when I said Kurama and Hiei were fine when their backstories weren't spoon fed to us? Well apply it here as well. I had no problem with Yusuke just being a gifted teenager who's wavelengths are simply different. And yeah, yeah, I know the plot twist about Yusuke's blood was revealed at the end of the third season... "Coincidentally", the end of the third season is when things began getting cheesy. I'd say the drop in quality started after the episode where Kuwabara (who's absence was another downer in the last arc), Kurama, and Hiei chased Sensui into Demon World, Attempting Revenge.
Am I correct in saying Togashi wanted to end the series with the Sensui arc? If so, I really think he should've done that, though the ending would obviously different (the final episode was indeed sweet, though). It really could've made the perfect ending. But how they would've went about doing that is, obviously, a mystery to me. :??:
Still, like I said, the last season isn't bad. It's... good. Yomi was pretty cool, the final battle was interesting, parts of the character's stories were nice, Yusuke's goodbye to Koenma was perfect, and the ending was good. So I'm sure I'll rewatch it along with everything else when the day comes that I return to this series. These are just a few issues that I've come to see.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on April 22, 2012, 01:24:34 PM
By the way, I'd like to say something about part of this show. After thinking about it more over the years, does anyone else feel that the last season is really... meh? I mean sure, it's enjoyable, but it's by far my least favorite part of the show. And really, I can't call it anything better than "adequate". I just feel that it's stories are generally rushed, unnecessary, simply uninteresting, and in some cases, just kinda cheesy.
Dude, YYH fans (including myself) have been saying this about the last season for years. Where were you during all of that time? :sly:
QuoteI do know that the manga's version is supposedly garbage (which I still haven't gotten to), but to me, that still doesn't excuse the anime version.
It does if you realize just how much they cleaned up the manga version of this arc. Its not the fault of the anime staff that the arc they were basing this off of was complete trash due to Togashi's flat-out laziness (he clearly stopped caring about the quality of this series after he was done with the Chapter Black arc).
QuoteThe Demon World Tournament just isn't interesting until the final battle, which is admittedly pretty cool.
Actually, while I used to find the Yusuke vs. Yomi fight cool, even that feels disappointingly underwhelming to me now. It just never really feels like anything major is at stake during that fight....probably because there is NOTHING at stake during that fight. Yusuke loses it and....that's it. Demon World is still fine. The human world is still fine. Nobody loses any sleep over the matter.
QuoteBut until that point, once you get over the nostalgia of the Dark Tournament similarities, it's just boring for me, and really makes me wish we got the full scale war that Togashi was building up to. What a copout.
Heh, If you think that's bad, then don't ever bother reading HXH. Togashi has a bad habit of building up to a lot of potentially awesome ideas, and then just completely drops them because he's too lazy to actually write them (or at least that's what I'd like to think).
QuoteAs for Kurama and Hiei's past, those stories had their perks. But I found the characters to be no less interesting before, when only bits and pieces of their past were known, and the rest was shrouded in mystery.
I agree about Hiei's past. There's really nothing too special about that and it didn't really expand on his character in any significant way. As for Kuramra, though, I REALLY liked his past being explored when he was the demon theif Yoko, and I liked that whole relationship between him and Yomi, and how Yomi had learned how to be an effective leader through Kurama (despite Kurama betraying him, which oddly enough Yomi held no grudge against him for because he understood why Kurama needed to do that as a leader). I felt that this was one of the few strong points of the last arc, and I actually would have much preferred if we had a character focused arc on Kurama and his past and present relationship with his former follower (and now ironically his boss) Yomi. That would have been much more interesting than the standard and boring arc that we got.
QuoteThere are also little things about the final season that simply bother me. For example, Genkai training Jin's crew to be unbelievably powerful... I mean, what the heck? This makes no sense with the info we were already given previously in the show. Was Genkai simply holding back on Yusuke earlier? Another thing that bothered me was how commonplace "invincible" demons became. In the third season, Sensui's level of power was such a big deal. Hiei even said "His power is rare, even in Demon World". I truly believed that Sensui was the very best, and that no one would be able to surpass him... But then, what-do-ya-know? Everyone and their dog is tougher than the poor guy in Demon World. And the A class demons, which were built up to be so awesome and scary, turned out to be a bunch of lamos. It just destroys the entire buildup we got in the Chapter Black story, and it honestly dampens Sensui's impact.
All of these questions of yours can be answered with one simple fact: This is what happens when Togashi stops giving a shit. You really need to understand by now that Togashi is the most lazy "talented" writer in all of manga. When he is actually invested in something, he can write incredibly good stories. But when he just flat-out stops caring....you get shit like the Demon World arc of YYH. :-\
QuoteAm I correct in saying Togashi wanted to end the series with the Sensui arc?
I've heard this somewhere before, myself. However I've never actually found an official source (like an interview with or statement by Togashi himself) that confirmed this. The only thing that convinces me it may be true is that he clearly just didn't put any effort into the finale of this series.
QuoteIf so, I really think he should've done that, though the ending would obviously different (the final episode was indeed sweet, though). It really could've made the perfect ending. But how they would've went about doing that is, obviously, a mystery to me. :??:
In this case, its entirely possible that Togashi DID want to end YYH with the Chapter Black arc. The thing is, a lot of creators of Weekly Shonen Jump series want to end their series at their pinnacles so that they get remembered as masterpieces rather than being dragged through the mud with stale ideas afterward. The problem is that if a series is at its pinnacle and most likely the height of its popularity, the editorial staff of WSJ sees that there are still profits to be made from it, and will force the authors to continue creating new material for the manga until the series finally becomes a piece of crap and is forced to end by cancellation. So, in that regard, some people theorize that Togashi was forced to continue writing the manga but got back at the editorial department by purposely churning out shit to get the series ended faster. Now, that's completely based on theory and has no evidence to back it up, but once again I'm sticking with my theory that he just became a lazy ass-hole. :D
Quote from: talonmalon333 on April 22, 2012, 01:24:34 PM
By the way, I'd like to say something about part of this show. After thinking about it more over the years, does anyone else feel that the last season is really... meh? I mean sure, it's enjoyable, but it's by far my least favorite part of the show. And really, I can't call it anything better than "adequate". I just feel that it's stories are generally rushed, unnecessary, simply uninteresting, and in some cases, just kinda cheesy.
I do know that the manga's version is supposedly garbage (which I still haven't gotten to), but to me, that still doesn't excuse the anime version. The Demon World Tournament just isn't interesting until the final battle, which is admittedly pretty cool. But until that point, once you get over the nostalgia of the Dark Tournament similarities, it's just boring for me, and really makes me wish we got the full scale war that Togashi was building up to. What a copout. As for Kurama and Hiei's past, those stories had their perks. But I found the characters to be no less interesting before, when only bits and pieces of their past were known, and the rest was shrouded in mystery.
There are also little things about the final season that simply bother me. For example, Genkai training Jin's crew to be unbelievably powerful... I mean, what the heck? This makes no sense with the info we were already given previously in the show. Was Genkai simply holding back on Yusuke earlier? Another thing that bothered me was how commonplace "invincible" demons became. In the third season, Sensui's level of power was such a big deal. Hiei even said "His power is rare, even in Demon World". I truly believed that Sensui was the very best, and that no one would be able to surpass him... But then, what-do-ya-know? Everyone and their dog is tougher than the poor guy in Demon World. And the A class demons, which were built up to be so awesome and scary, turned out to be a bunch of lamos. It just destroys the entire buildup we got in the Chapter Black story, and it honestly dampens Sensui's impact.
And then there's Yusuke. Let me just put aside the out of the left field "Wait, what am I fighting for?" character development that's forced into the final battle. Remember when I said Kurama and Hiei were fine when their backstories weren't spoon fed to us? Well apply it here as well. I had no problem with Yusuke just being a gifted teenager who's wavelengths are simply different. And yeah, yeah, I know the plot twist about Yusuke's blood was revealed at the end of the third season... "Coincidentally", the end of the third season is when things began getting cheesy. I'd say the drop in quality started after the episode where Kuwabara (who's absence was another downer in the last arc), Kurama, and Hiei chased Sensui into Demon World, Attempting Revenge.
Am I correct in saying Togashi wanted to end the series with the Sensui arc? If so, I really think he should've done that, though the ending would obviously different (the final episode was indeed sweet, though). It really could've made the perfect ending. But how they would've went about doing that is, obviously, a mystery to me. :??:
Still, like I said, the last season isn't bad. It's... good. Yomi was pretty cool, the final battle was interesting, parts of the character's stories were nice, Yusuke's goodbye to Koenma was perfect, and the ending was good. So I'm sure I'll rewatch it along with everything else when the day comes that I return to this series. These are just a few issues that I've come to see.
You must have missed me and EK's multiple, lengthy discussions on this subject. Before I read EK's answers, I'll go blind and give mine just so I don't just end up nodding yes a bunch of times while leaving out my personal opinions:
Me, EK and apparently a bunch of other people felt like they should have went to war. Yes, them canceling the war for another tournament was in fact a major copout. We never get to see them live up to the potential of Hiei, Kurama and/or Yusuke having to fight to the death. They don't even fight in the tournament! I guess they avoided them having tournament bouts against each other out of not wanting to seem like fan service determines the winner, whatever that means. Still disappointed that the show had no Yusuke vs Kurama. I'd love to see what strategy Kurama would have used not to mention that I think Sensui is damn near a straightforward fighter compared to Kurama, plus Kurama knows Yusuke's fighting style. I could go on forever. Also, would have love to see Raizen's old friend be soldiers in Yusuke's army instead of a bunch of guys who never got their last tournament fights shown.
I actually thought the Demon Tournament fights themself were interesting even though I didn't care for the whatever sapping feeling they were going for during Mukuro vs Hiei.
And yes Hiei and Kurama didn't get magically better because their pasts were revealed. What the hell do you expect?
They obviously brought back the Dark Tournament favorites for fans. DUH! :sly:
I may be wrong, but I believe Sensui is more than most of the fighters in the Demon Tournament. I'm not even sure if Hiei and Kurama got more powerful than him.
Oh, I didn't know Yomi wasn't mad at Kurama. I thought he wanted to blow away Kurama and was biding his time.
The best ending would have been with Yusuke in demon world after beating Sensui thinking about going after whoever "controlled him" and the gang convincing him to return back instead. Then the episode ends. Then we get the final episode wondering if Yusuke stayed or returned, and we get the final episode pretty much the same way otherwise. Yusuke would have let it go and gone back to where he belonged as he was not like Sensui and become the best Spirit Detective possible. It's not perfect, but it's miles better than where Togashi took it.
Ek is right, though. The Demon World arc in the manga is not only terrible and disappointing, it actually makes twists and turns the anime wisely cut including brainwashing (which was literally impossible) and government corruption which, again, was too much of a stretch. Not to mention the arc randomly ends and we get random gag manga with Yusuke handling a noodle cart and the art literally being impossible to see.
The anime cut all that and basically made the arc legible, fleshed out every character in the arc (I liked how they made it so even Hiei was tired of fighting at one point) and even tried to finish it properly. The arc isn't all that great because Togashi dropped the ball, but in anime form it's actually quite a decent epilogue to the story. It's just too bad about all those new characters that didn't get to do anything.
Quote from: gunswordfist on April 22, 2012, 07:31:14 PMI may be wrong, but I believe Sensui is more than most of the fighters in the Demon Tournament. I'm not even sure if Hiei and Kurama got more powerful than him.
Well, Raizen beat Sensui (but keep in mind, Sensui was beaten pretty ragged at that point), but he was the equivalent of S class. But a lower S class. I think they were at least equal to Sensui at his peak by series end.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on April 22, 2012, 09:37:33 PM
The best ending would have been with Yusuke in demon world after beating Sensui thinking about going after whoever "controlled him" and the gang convincing him to return back instead. Then the episode ends. Then we get the final episode wondering if Yusuke stayed or returned, and we get the final episode pretty much the same way otherwise. Yusuke would have let it go and gone back to where he belonged as he was not like Sensui and become the best Spirit Detective possible. It's not perfect, but it's miles better than where Togashi took it.
Ek is right, though. The Demon World arc in the manga is not only terrible and disappointing, it actually makes twists and turns the anime wisely cut including brainwashing (which was literally impossible) and government corruption which, again, was too much of a stretch. Not to mention the arc randomly ends and we get random gag manga with Yusuke handling a noodle cart and the art literally being impossible to see.
The anime cut all that and basically made the arc legible, fleshed out every character in the arc (I liked how they made it so even Hiei was tired of fighting at one point) and even tried to finish it properly. The arc isn't all that great because Togashi dropped the ball, but in anime form it's actually quite a decent epilogue to the story. It's just too bad about all those new characters that didn't get to do anything.
I would want it to end with Three Kings just so the last arc could be really action packed (with the war actually happening), while we get to learn more about Kurama and Hiei. It would be criminal to end the show without the latter. It would be cool if Yusuke got to reflect on things that happened in Chapter Black. That would make adding another saga too good to pass up. Dammit, I'm craving shounen now.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on April 22, 2012, 09:40:54 PM
Quote from: gunswordfist on April 22, 2012, 07:31:14 PMI may be wrong, but I believe Sensui is more than most of the fighters in the Demon Tournament. I'm not even sure if Hiei and Kurama got more powerful than him.
Well, Raizen beat Sensui (but keep in mind, Sensui was beaten pretty ragged at that point), but he was the equivalent of S class. But a lower S class. I think they were at least equal to Sensui at his peak by series end.
I missed a lot, if not most of their fight thanks to that damn library DVD being scratched up (and Yusuke's Yomi fight, ugh.) so I don't know how Raizen controlling Yusuke works. All I saw were the headbutts and the demon gun.
Ideally, if Togashi was actually still putting effort into the series after the Chapter Black arc, I think we can all agree that we would have wanted to see the War arc take place. The whole idea of a 3-sided war going down in Demon World made for a set-up that could potentially surpass the Chapter Black arc, if Togashi were able to deliver on it. Unfortunately what we got was an underwhelming tournament arc that took the series nowhere and gave it a really weak ending. I certainly would have rather had the series end after the Chapter Black arc than have that dragged out ending, but like I said, the Demon World war arc is what I most wanted to see.
I always wished that Togashi would one day do an alternate version of the Three Kings arc in which he actually does go through with the war, but unfortunately the fact that he isn't even staying on track with his current series, Hunter X Hunter, is a good indicator that he's still a lazy ass-hole. :>
Well, Togashi could always hand over adaptation rights to a studio (probably the same one that's doing the new HxH anime) that would be interested in doing a Demon War arc or something.
Oh man, I was yet again thinking about Three Kings getting a redo. Anime wise, though.Wish they could find a talented team.
I also thought the very end of Yu yu Hakusho was good. The demons got to do something and Genkai and the gang were anticipating what could happen in the future. I honestly pretty much want the show to end like that.
Making anew YYH anime for only the last arc? I'd be more than done with that. But since it would probably need input from the laziest writer in Japan, it would probably end randomly mid-arc.
Quote from: Rynnec on April 22, 2012, 10:49:48 PM
Well, Togashi could always hand over adaptation rights to a studio (probably the same one that's doing the new HxH anime) that would be interested in doing a Demon War arc or something.
I doubt that would happen, since it'd be complicated to get Studio Pierrot (who still currently holds the anime adaptation property for YYH) to hand it over to Madhouse (who are doing the new Hunter X Hunter anime). Ideally, though, I would love to see some new YYH material from a good veteran mangaka or writer for shonen series to adapt YYH. Also, I saw on some ANN posting of some Japanese magazine poll that YYH was one of of the top 50 anime that audiences wanted to see new material for (but, then again, only 80-something people voted for it).
The bottom line, though, is that its not that popular in Japan (not anymore, anyways), and doesn't have the lasting appeal to most Japanese audiences as other contemporary shonen series of its time have (like DBZ, Saint Seiya, etc.). So I doubt we'll ever see anything relevant for this series come up ever again.
To be honest, though, I'm glad that it was as good as it was and am happy that it didn't get dragged through the mud for more than just one short arc. At least the way it is now its a quality series that holds up against the test of time, IMO.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 22, 2012, 10:57:30 PM
Ideally, though, I would love to see some new YYH material from a good veteran mangaka or writer for shonen series to adapt YYH.
Get Rikudou to do it. :sly:
I wouldn't mind Togashi writing a feature length animated movie on YYH. It would surely be better than the 1 film we got.
Well, 2 films if you count the OVA? Also, as bland as the movie was, I'd still want to see FUNimation dub it just so I can hear Justine Cook as Yusuke again. :D
As for Togashi, wouldn't it be nice if in all this time on hiatus he was working on something as ambitious as a new YYH film or something on that scale? Sadly the fact of the matter is that he's just flat-out lazy and he's spending his free-time doing anything but being productive with his manga.
Quote from: Ensatsu-kenI doubt that would happen, since it'd be complicated to get Studio Pierrot (who still currently holds the anime adaptation property for YYH) to hand it over to Madhouse (who are doing the new Hunter X Hunter anime).
I dunno if I'd want modern-day Studio Pierrot making new material for YYH if that's the case. Not do their adaptations have sub-par animation, their original material for the past few years leave a lot to be desired if Naruto and Bleaches filler arc's are any indication (Those two shows are mediocre regardless, but still). Granted they have produced good stuff amongst all the mediocrity, but it's still nothing special.
Yeah, Pierrot was totally on fire when they made YYH. But they haven't been nearly as good as then for a while now, usually their adaptions being very lazy and by the numbers.
Likewise, but I was just pointing out that they hold the YYH propery license and I doubt that they'd just hand it over for free or anything like that; and I doubt that Madhouse or any other studio would be willing to fork over any cash to make new material for a series that quite frankly isn't popular enough in Japan any longer to make them a viable profit.
There is so much here that I want to respond to. I'm just gonna do the first response or so right now, and then cover the rest of what you guys said later.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 22, 2012, 01:46:46 PM
Dude, YYH fans (including myself) have been saying this about the last season for years. Where were you during all of that time? :sly:
Very out of the loop, apparently. :cry:
But I do remember a few of you guys saying the last arc isn't too great. However, I wasn't sure if anyone was as negative about it as I just was, describing it as "adequate", at best.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 22, 2012, 01:46:46 PMIt does if you realize just how much they cleaned up the manga version of this arc. Its not the fault of the anime staff that the arc they were basing this off of was complete trash due to Togashi's flat-out laziness (he clearly stopped caring about the quality of this series after he was done with the Chapter Black arc).
Yeah, you're right. There's only so much one can do to make a piece of garbage look like gold. :P
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 22, 2012, 01:46:46 PMActually, while I used to find the Yusuke vs. Yomi fight cool, even that feels disappointingly underwhelming to me now. It just never really feels like anything major is at stake during that fight....probably because there is NOTHING at stake during that fight. Yusuke loses it and....that's it. Demon World is still fine. The human world is still fine. Nobody loses any sleep over the matter.
Agreed. I think the fight itself is solid on it's own... but then you compare it to Yusuke's fights against Toguro or Sensui, and it gets blown to pieces.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 22, 2012, 01:46:46 PMHeh, If you think that's bad, then don't ever bother reading HXH. Togashi has a bad habit of building up to a lot of potentially awesome ideas, and then just completely drops them because he's too lazy to actually write them (or at least that's what I'd like to think).
Ugh. At the very least, should I see the second/remake anime? I really enjoyed the first one.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 22, 2012, 01:46:46 PMI agree about Hiei's past. There's really nothing too special about that and it didn't really expand on his character in any significant way. As for Kuramra, though, I REALLY liked his past being explored when the was the demon theif Yoko, and I liked that whole relationship between him and Yomi, and how Yomi had learned how to be an effective leader through Kurama (despite Kurama betraying him, which oddly enough Yomi held no grudge against him for because he understood why Kurama needed to do that as a leader). I felt that this was one of the few strong points of the last arc, and I actually would have much preferred if we had a character focused arc on Kurama and his past and present relationship with his former follower (and now ironically his boss) Yomi. That would have been much more interesting than the standard and boring arc that we got.
I don't find Kurama's story to be completely necessary, but okay, you're right. It was definitely cool. I'm not sure if they could've made an entire arc out of it. But an OVA series, made after the series, could've been a cool idea.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 22, 2012, 01:46:46 PMAll of these questions of yours can be answered with one simple fact: This is what happens when Togashi stops giving a shit. You really need to understand by now that Togashi is the most lazy "talented" writer in all of manga. When he is actually invested in something, he can write incredibly good stories. But when he just flat-out stops caring....you get shit like the Demon World arc of YYH. :-\
I was probably in a state of denial, since I found Togashi to be awesome for years. It's the kind of thing that you don't want to believe is true, even if you really know it is. :P
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 22, 2012, 01:46:46 PMI've heard this somewhere before, myself. However I've never actually found an official source (like an interview with or statement by Togashi himself) that confirmed this. The only thing that convinces me it may be true is that he clearly just didn't put any effort into the finale of this series.
I think it was Cableguy that sent me a source stating that Togashi planned on ending it with Chapter Black (this source also quoted Togashi stating his favorite character he created for YYH was Itsuki, and his least favorite was Keiko). I'll have to ask him again for the source. Unfortunately, I'm never able to get into contact with him more than once a month, so this could take a while. But I'll be sure to post it here when I do.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 22, 2012, 01:46:46 PMIn this case, its entirely possible that Togashi DID want to end YYH with the Chapter Black arc. The thing is, a lot of creators of Weekly Shonen Jump series want to end their series at their pinnacles so that they get remembered as masterpieces rather than being dragged through the mud with stale ideas afterward. The problem is that if a series is at its pinnacle and most likely the height of its popularity, the editorial staff of WSJ sees that there are still profits to be made from it, and will force the authors to continue creating new material for the manga until the series finally becomes a piece of crap and is forced to end by cancellation. So, in that regard, some people theorize that Togashi was forced to continue writing the manga but got back at the editorial department by purposely churning out shit to get the series ended faster. Now, that's completely based on theory and has no evidence to back it up, but once again I'm sticking with my theory that he just became a lazy ass-hole. :D
Like, even if you're forced to continue a series, basically blowing it off and just slapping together garbage is pure lazyness. Or childish. Or both. :P
---
Alright, I'll get to the next few posts later.
Before I respond to other posts, I have a question that I'd like to get your thoughts on.
If the series had ended with the third season, what would you think if Yusuke's death was permanent?
It would depend on how they handled it. If everything played out the same as it did and the series just ended with Yusuke dying and the others taking out Sensui, it'd be a poorly executed ending since there was little to no build-up to Yusuke having to sacrifice his life, and the weight and consequences it would bring to everyone else. If it was something that was planned for the finale and there was appropriate build-up to having a character death as significant as that, and there was more set-up around a scenario like that so that it could be appropriately followed-up in an effective and emotional way, then it could have made for a good ending, in theory.
That said, its a shonen series, and its mainly still supposed to be light-hearted at its core, so I'm personally fine with Yusuke living through the Sensui arc.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on April 23, 2012, 01:53:00 PM
Before I respond to other posts, I have a question that I'd like to get your thoughts on.
If the series had ended with the third season, what would you think if Yusuke's death was permanent?
I don't see how that could have lead to any good. Unlike whiney bitches, like those who thought Spike's death was a bad idea, characters dying at the end isn't the end of the world for me. If it makes sense. Yusuke dies and then what? That would wrap up nothing. Are you asking if it would be ok if Sensui gave the show a bad (as in good guys lose) ending?
It would depend on how it was handled, but I'm not sure it would have fit Yusuke's arc to die. The whole story was him growing up from a troubled kid into an adult (even though Togashi screwed this up in the manga's last arc and the anime staff corrected it) which would have been cut short by this point.
If anything, Hiei dying would have had a bigger impact since it would really show how far he had come since the series began. Being that he really had nothing to gain in all of Chapter Black by helping Yusuke.
In general, YYH is one of those series that doesn't really need to have any of its main character die to be effective in story-telling or impact. I like the characters and am perfectly fine with them living through every major event. In general, YYH is great in the execution of its story-telling and the likability of its characters, including its villains. That's one thing most modern shonen can't seem to nail. Other series have bland main characters and villains that are neither sinister enough to be taken seriously or even likable as a redeeming quality since that would at least make them interesting. I know the prospect of "villains" being likable seems contradictory to their purpose, but I think an effective villain can at least be interesting and someone who you don't think of a villain just because they act like a giant douche. I don't necessarily mean they have to be likable as a character, but their motives should seem like they make sense from their own perspective, or they should at least fascinate you in some way even if they aren't meant to be either likable or despicable (Johan from Monster is a perfect example of this).
I really liked Sensui because his motives seemed interesting even if they were clearly misguided, and I also liked how despite his intelligence, craftiness, and skill, he never seemed full of himself like most shonen villains who "think" they are being smart seem to be. There was a very modest and humble atmosphere around him and each of his personalities (except for maybe Kazuya), and in general I liked that he was doing what he was doing because it was the conclusion that he came to that it was the path he wanted to go down and was best fit for. He didn't even try to act smug and really convince Yusuke that he was right in wanting to end humanity. He just decided that humanity wasn't worth defending (which is why he abandoned being a Spirit Detective) and then came up with a plan to take out humanity and let the multiple species of demons fight it out over who would be the next dominant race, since he generally felt that humanity in general had grown too much of an ego and had become far worse in general than any demon he would have been assigned to hunt down in his Spirit Detective days.
That's why I like Sensui. He's just a very "honest" villain, and doesn't pretend to be the good guy at all, if that makes any sense.
I'm just playing devil's advocate here.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on April 23, 2012, 04:42:54 PM
It would depend on how it was handled, but I'm not sure it would have fit Yusuke's arc to die. The whole story was him growing up from a troubled kid into an adult (even though Togashi screwed this up in the manga's last arc and the anime staff corrected it) which would have been cut short by this point.
I guess you could argue that Yusuke's final sacrifice is basically said development coming full circle, and that his death would be a great way to end his story arc, being as that's how it started (and to me personally, is one of the reasons it's the most powerful moment of the series).
And to add my personal opinion in, I think that the whole Mazoku thing is where things started to just get cheesy. And Yusuke's fight against Sensui in Demon World wasn't that great, plus Sensui's arc about wanting to be defeated by a demon wasn't totally necessary. Plus, to me it just seemed all wrong seeing Yusuke exploding with demon energy when he was reborn. :P
I didn't really like the whole "Yusuke is a demon" angle either. I always thought his incredible bursts of power came from the fact that he was a deeply troubled kid that couldn't get his emotions out and his powers were the same. Making him a demon offspring (and then providing a cheesy reason as to why it didn't awaken at series start) seemed like a cop out. But since it went that way, it was handled as well as it could be, considering.
Yusuke's death against Sensui was emotional, but I would have preferred he got help from his friends and all four of them beat him. Even if the fight went to demon world eventually, it would have been a more satisfying end for the whole story.
Also, I though Togashi's favorite characters were the Toguro Bros.?
I remember how shocked I was when I first saw Mazoku Yusuke in an anime magazine ad. I'm honestly a sucker for unexpected things happening in later arcs of shonen. I have a soft spot for long/somewhat long anime done right.
Yeah, I wasn't a fan of Yusuke being a demon offspring either. I honestly would have preferred that he just got revived by someone healing him or some shit like that. It would have been lazy and on the spot writing, but at least it wouldn't have screwed around with his character, IMO.
As for what Desensitized said about his outbursts being from him trying to get his emotions out rather than being related to his demon blood, I think that still very well holds true for everything up until the reveal that he had demon blood. I mean, its not like he was able to unlock any of his demon powers anyways until his final fight with Sensui in Demon World. Up until that point, his outbursts really were only just based on his emotions.
Oh, BTW, off-topic from this particular discussion, I just watched the FUNimation dub of all of the bonus animation material from the Eizou Hakusho OVAs. My favorite line from the dub is when Yusuke is working at the noodle cart vendor and says this to a customer: "Here's you're change. Don't get mugged on the way home." Another funny one was when Keiko says, "What would our old teacher say if they saw you here making an honest living?" To which Yusuke responds, "They'd ask where I stole this food."
Those right there are classic FUNimation-style dub lines for YYH, and it just feels so surreal to hear Justin Cook pulling dialogue like that off in Yusuke's voice after all these years.
It would be cool to see the gang gang up on one villain
This discussion led me to start listing the plotholes in season four. I'm going to be listing them in question form. Now there's a chance that some of these things aren't actually holes, and that I'm merely forgetting something. So if that happens, feel free to correct me.
1. How did Jin, Chu, and the rest of the DT crew get so strong so quickly?
2. Isn't Sensui's level of power supposed to be "rare, even in Demon World"?
3. If Yukina supposedly never returned to the Ice World... where is she seen going twice earlier on in the series?
4. How does Hiei's backstory line up with his mission in the beginning of the series, when he wanted to use the three artifacts to take over the human world?
5. According to Raizen's story arc, demons need to eat humans to survive (in fact, Mukuro herself claims to have tried eating other things, but failed). So how can Enki afford to keep them from eating humans at the end of the series? It will just cause mass starvation. Besides, Yusuke even said something along the lines of "If it's bad, then why were you made this way?".
6. ^And how exactly have demons been eating humans all this time anyway? The tunnel to Demon World has been closed, and the Kekkai Barrier sealed.
7. In the beginning of the arc, Yusuke asks Hokushin how he got through the barrier if the hole to Demon World was closed. Hokushin claims that they slipped through the Kekkai Barrier by wearing devises that lowered their power to a D class level. This still doesn't answer the larger question at hand: How did they get through if the hole to Demon World was closed?
8. In addition, Koenma said only B classes and lower can slip through the Kekkai Barrier. Hokushin completely contradicts this.
9. I've always considered the possibility that this might just be a dubbing error. But the numbers for years used in this arc aren't remotely consistent (one character saying Raizen's been starving for 1,000 years, then Raizen says 700 years, etc.).
Some of these holes are kind of small. But some others are just big issues if you ask me, issues that they try to sweep under the rug, especially things like point #5. But again, please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.
I'm just gonna take random guesses and opinions at most of these.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on April 23, 2012, 06:58:03 PM1. How did Jin, Chu, and the rest of the DT crew get so strong so quickly?
Good training, I'd guess. Though I'd assume they had been training hard since the Dark Tournament originally ended.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on April 23, 2012, 06:58:03 PM2. Isn't Sensui's level of power supposed to be "rare, even in Demon World"?
It is. This is where the Demon World arc stumbles when Togashi attempted to make "levels" of S class demons which was just silly. As far as I'm concerned the only proper S levels were the three kings and the "off the radar" demons. Their servants were A
at best. Especially considering how Kurama was so much stronger than most despite not training much at all between Chapter Black and Three Kings.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on April 23, 2012, 06:58:03 PM3. If Yukina supposedly never returned to the Ice World... where is she seen going twice earlier on in the series?
Sight seeing.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on April 23, 2012, 06:58:03 PM4. How does Hiei's backstory line up with his mission in the beginning of the series, when he wanted to use the three artifacts to take over the human world?
He temporarily lost himself to the Jagan. This also lines up when you consider how reliant he was on it in his first fight to the point where he considered it his trump card. When we all know it wasn't.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on April 23, 2012, 06:58:03 PM5. According to Raizen's story arc, demons need to eat humans to survive (in fact, Mukuro herself claims to have tried eating other things, but failed). So how can Enki afford to keep them from eating humans at the end of the series? It will just cause mass starvation. Besides, Yusuke even said something along the lines of "If it's bad, then why were you made this way?".
Not all demons need to eat humans. Only specific types, which Raizen was one of.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on April 23, 2012, 06:58:03 PM6. ^And how exactly have demons been eating humans all this time anyway? The tunnel to Demon World has been closed, and the Kekkai Barrier sealed.
The same way the servants got to Yusuke at the start of the Three Kings arc. Draining their power and sneaking in.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on April 23, 2012, 06:58:03 PM7. In the beginning of the arc, Yusuke asks Hokushin how he got through the barrier if the hole to Demon World was closed. Hokushin claims that they slipped through the Kekkai Barrier by wearing devises that lowered their power to a D class level. This still doesn't answer the larger question at hand: How did they get through if the hole to Demon World was closed?
The hole to Demon World only blocks A class demons and above.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on April 23, 2012, 06:58:03 PM8. In addition, Koenma said only B classes and lower can slip through the Kekkai Barrier. Hokushin completely contradicts this.
He lowered his power in order to cross. If he removed the device to return to his original power he would have been killed, IIRC.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on April 23, 2012, 06:58:03 PM9. I've always considered the possibility that this might just be a dubbing error. But the numbers for years used in this arc aren't remotely consistent (one character saying Raizen's been starving for 1,000 years, then Raizen says 700 years, etc.).
I just guess that he doesn't remember how long it's been and neither does anyone else.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on April 23, 2012, 06:58:03 PMSome of these holes are kind of small. But some others are just big issues if you ask me, issues that they try to sweep under the rug, especially things like point #5. But again, please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.
Yeah, the last arc is not as fleshed out as it should be.
I don't have the time to answer all of these, but you're both wrong on number 2, if you are going by specifics. It was said that Sensui's "sacred energy" was rare. It never said anything about his general level of power being rare, though of course S class demons shouldn't have been that common in the first place. The Demon World Tournament merely just gathered all or most of the S class demons in existence. There were probably a few dozen out of like....what's the DW population? Somewhere in the millions? Its not like the S class demons are rare rule was really broken, as far as I'm concerned. I do think its kind of weak that more than just a few exist, though, so I'm not denying its bad writing on Togashi's part on that end. It doesn't really contradict anything that I'm aware of, though, so I thought I'd point that out.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 23, 2012, 08:49:26 PM
I don't have the time to answer all of these, but you're both wrong on number 2, if you are going by specifics. It was said that Sensui's "sacred energy" was rare. It never said anything about his general level of power being rare, though of course S class demons shouldn't have been that common in the first place. The Demon World Tournament merely just gathered all or most of the S class demons in existence. There were probably a few dozen out of like....what's the DW population? Somewhere in the millions? Its not like the S class demons are rare rule was really broken, as far as I'm concerned. I do think its kind of weak that more than just a few exist, though, so I'm not denying its bad writing on Togashi's part on that end. It doesn't really contradict anything that I'm aware of, though, so I thought I'd point that out.
Wasn't Hokushin an S class? That seemed a bit out there to me.
Well, he was Raizen's right-hand man, wasn't he (isn't that why Raizen specifically sent him to get Yusuke)? It'd make sense for one of Raizen's top generals to be that strong.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 23, 2012, 08:57:41 PM
Well, he was Raizen's right-hand man, wasn't he (isn't that why Raizen specifically sent him to get Yusuke)? It'd make sense for one of Raizen's top generals to be that strong.
It's mostly that he never really came off very strong as far as I can recall. But then again, it's not like he fought a lot either.
Well, he had a lazily drawn appearance that certainly made him fit the bill of generic henchmen more than top-class war general, so yeah, he didn't look as strong as he really was. But, then again, I find that criticism to kind of be a moot point given just how much is wrong with the final arc in general. That is to say, its just a badly written arc that had no effort put into it, so I don't even feel like its worth it to nitpick details like that when the arc has far more glaring issues, IMO.
I still say that Togashi could redeem himself by re-writing an alternate version of that arc in which the demon war being built up really does take place and then makes the alternate version the canon version of the arc. The thing that pisses me off the most about Togashi is that he IS actually a talented enough writer to make that kind of stuff work (there's also a ton of great potential arcs that he could have done with HXH that he'll probably never get to for the same reason). That's why its frustrating that despite his talent, he's to lazy to actually a use it past the first few arcs of any of his long-running series.
4. How does Hiei's backstory line up with his mission in the beginning of the series, when he wanted to use the three artifacts to take over the human world?
The most this can sense is that this was like Hiei's younger years were he used to be ruthless. I heard from some random poster somewhere that Hiei was changed by Togashi to be likable. Honestly, he had a complete 180 after Spirit Detective and into Maze Castle/Four Beasts. Sense wise, this is the biggest head scratcher in the entire show. Hiei goes from being the most one dimensional villain in the show except for that blade arm guy that Kurama fought and hell sweat muscle guy that Kurama also fought and maybe a few other villains from Dark Tournament, to being an honorable swordsman. Remember before the Dark Tournament Hiei refused to train Kuwabara because he refused to beat on someone that much weaker than him? Well Hiei attack )I believe he freaking slashed her with that weird sword) and kidnapping a damn 14 year old girl in Kayko is about as far from that honor you can get.
Thoughts of two "plotholes".
1. Hiei says regular humans would shrivel up by inhaling the wind in Demon World... and yet humans stumble into it frequently in the end.
2. King Enma wants Yusuke either dead, or in Demon World... So they gonna elaborate on why Yusuke's allowed to return to the human world in the last episode?
For 2., everything about Yusuke returning is a complete mystery, so there you go. 1. could in fact be a plothole.
For 1, I'm pretty sure it's just Hiei being cocky. For 2, Koenma had more pull in Spirit World by the end of the series and he basically used it to bring Yusuke back.
Figure it's time for me to respond to the responses on this point:
Quote from: talonmalon333 on April 23, 2012, 06:58:03 PM
2. Isn't Sensui's level of power supposed to be "rare, even in Demon World"?
Some good points were made, in that it's not a plothole to see as many S classes as we do, considering Demon World is so huge. But I also agree that it's just bad writing, and yet another cop-out. Like, I'm sure you guys remember that scene when in E71, The Tunnel, Koenma says "You have to understand the alternative. If just one S class demon crossed into the living world...". From that point they show images of colossal demons in the human world wrecking havoc. I'm not gonna lie, that scene was scary. Those demons seemed completely immortal and unstoppable. It's especially effective in that they show the reactions of regular humans, people like us, to it. And then the whole scene is covered in a reddish sky, and it's really dark. You don't have a good view of what the demons really look like, but what you can see is really intimidating.
It's true that this scene isn't an actual event. It's purely the character's imagination of what
would happen. But that's not the point, really. This scene creates a buildup and a sort of expectation. And how do they live up to that? Meh. A big friendly ogre with goat horns, a crazy drunk lady, and a few other characters that really don't leave much impression. The kings are okay, but still don't quite live up to that expectation. Ironically the only one that does, in my opinion, is Sensui yet again, even though he's not really one of the strongest characters in the series. Maybe this greatly has to do with what you see him do. You see him becoming invincible, you see him become even more invincible as the fight continues. You watch him murder Yusuke, and then almost do the same to the other characters in their vain attempt to avenge their friend.
With most of the characters in the final season, you really don't get much of a feel for their strength. It's mostly just other characters saying "Uh, these guys are tough". It all goes back to "show, don't tell". Seeing what someone can do is more effective than being told. Because let me tell you, when Sensui was effortlessly beating Yusuke's powered-up friends, I really believed that there was no way they could win. :o
Koenma said it best. When something happened to the barrier (not sure if this was when Kuwabara cut it down or what) and Seaman said something like "Wait, shouldn't we all be dead?" like they were supposed to be instantly dead or something and then Koenma explains that the S class demons havoc would take time to wreck the world and not be instantaneous.
Quote from: gunswordfist on April 26, 2012, 02:06:22 PM
Koenma said it best. When something happened to the barrier (not sure if this was when Kuwabara cut it down or what) and Seaman said something like "Wait, shouldn't we all be dead?" like they were supposed to be instantly dead or something and then Koenma explains that the S class demons havoc would take time to wreck the world and not be instantaneous.
Yeah, but I'm not sure what you're getting at.
I meant that there's really no demons that can blow cities away like that scene implied.
Quote from: gunswordfist on April 26, 2012, 02:26:41 PM
I meant that there's really no demons that can blow cities away like that scene implied.
Sensui was holding back as much as he could in Demon's Door cave, and yet he was causing notable damage to the earth. And when he unleashed his power, blew up a plateau in an instant. I wouldn't be surprised if he could destroy a city. I think Koenma was just saying that the S class demons were waiting till they knew it was safe to pass through to the human world. He went on to say something along the lines of (not an exact quote) "And then, they'll unleash destruction far more than anything man has ever created, and that is how the world will end."
Who do you guys like better between Karasu and Bui?
Bui had more of a reason to fight (so he wouldn't be just second-best). Also, his method of fighting didn't involve bombing things to death, so that counts.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on May 02, 2012, 06:19:25 PM
Who do you guys like better between Karasu and Bui?
That's a damn good question. I guess Bui. He can probably go up in the air and bomb (pun intended) Karasu and call it a day.
EDIT: I thought the question was about who would win in a fight. That's what I get for glancing while using all these tabs. Everyone knows I'm a Bui fan. There's nothing to pay attention to about Karasu except his powers are extremely cool - just as cool as Bui's. I always liked that about the two - they made Team Toguro that much more badass. I need to watch the part where they blow away some team again.
Side note on the two, I love how Bui wasn't killed like you'd assume every member on Team Toguro would be since that's pretty cliche for shounen.
I love how Karasu came into the Kurama fight blind. As a teen, I was already sick of "Haha! I know all your moves" as seen in too many animated series so for a villain to go into a fight not knowing what he was getting into was very interesting to me. He even said something like "I don't know if you are crazy or what for being in this fight."
I do really like Bui's little story, and he deserves credit for being the first to overpower the Dragon of Darkness Flame. However, I'd go with Karasu. In all of his scenes, he was so... creepy. To me, he left a far bigger impression. I also don't think Bui's dialogue was particularly memorable, and his design was just okay.
Too bad Bui never appeared again after Hiei defeated him, you'd think he'd become an ally, or have a rematch with Hiei or something.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on May 02, 2012, 09:05:52 PM
I do really like Bui's little story, and he deserves credit for being the first to overpower the Dragon of Darkness Flame. However, I'd go with Karasu. In all of his scenes, he was so... creepy. To me, he left a far bigger impression. I also don't think Bui's dialogue was particularly memorable, and his design was just okay.
Karasu was also the only one to on Team Toguro "win" against his Team Urameshi opponent (even though he still died), so he probably deserves props for that.
Yeah, sucks how Bui never even appeared during the Three Kings arc.
I'm not sure if Bui would have helped much later in the story since his power was capped, wasn't it? I guess he could have been part of the tournament, but he probably wouldn't have gotten far.
But if it was Bui vs. Karasu, I'm pretty sure Bui would have won. All the members of Team Toguro could see Karasu's bombs, and Bui was just fast as he was plus his power was pretty close to the Toguro Bros. Other than his speed and trick, I don't think Karasu was quite to Bui's strength. Though obviously he was pretty strong.
Oh, in terms of strength, I think Bui would win hands down. He reflected the Dragon of Darkness Flame, after all. I can't imagine Karasu doing that.
Quote from: Rynnec on May 02, 2012, 09:26:55 PM
Too bad Bui never appeared again after Hiei defeated him, you'd think he'd become an ally, or have a rematch with Hiei or something.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on May 02, 2012, 09:05:52 PM
I do really like Bui's little story, and he deserves credit for being the first to overpower the Dragon of Darkness Flame. However, I'd go with Karasu. In all of his scenes, he was so... creepy. To me, he left a far bigger impression. I also don't think Bui's dialogue was particularly memorable, and his design was just okay.
Karasu was also the only one to on Team Toguro "win" against his Team Urameshi opponent (even though he still died), so he probably deserves props for that.
:D
As much as I'm a fan of Bui, I didn't mind that he never reappeared.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on May 02, 2012, 09:33:29 PM
I'm not sure if Bui would have helped much later in the story since his power was capped, wasn't it? I guess he could have been part of the tournament, but he probably wouldn't have gotten far.
But if it was Bui vs. Karasu, I'm pretty sure Bui would have won. All the members of Team Toguro could see Karasu's bombs, and Bui was just fast as he was plus his power was pretty close to the Toguro Bros. Other than his speed and trick, I don't think Karasu was quite to Bui's strength. Though obviously he was pretty strong.
I didn't know they could see his bombs. And yes, Bui blitz Karasu.
For the last 5 days or so, while my brother, who is the one who got me into the show, was visiting, on his laptop, I watched from episode 5 or 6 (likely 6) up to the very end of the Dark Tournament saga, which is like episode 65 or 66. Examples of how much episodes I watched in a day: episode 23-39, 39-58 or 59. The fact that there's no intro, credits or after episode/before credits previews in the videos my brother had on his computer helped with time since I surely would have watched all of that every single
Genkai Tournament was as entertaining as ever. That was the definition of luck. Good to finally see it (completely) uncut. I THINK the edited version made it look like the throwing stars guy got completely blown up and died. IDK. And of course I got to see mini-Kuwabara get his arm crushed again. This is the arc that got me into the series. Thank you adult swim marathon from 10 years!
Speaking of Kuwabara, I liked him a bit more after watching/rewatching these episodes. (Hint: I don't like him. My brother is a substantial fan of his though) Especially during the Four Saint Beasts and Rescue Yukina episodes. Those overall were a lot of fun. Also, I think Botan is at her best during Rescue Yukina, even if it was mostly just for her goofing off in front of the security cameras with Kuwabara and Yusuke.
That was the first time I've seen The Triad fights. Of course those 3 demons sucked ass but how fun I mentioned that episode was made me like the mini Rescue Yukina arc more.
I think the lump head boss (you know, the guy with 66 Trillion dollars that formed the Black Black Club or whatever) was the only guy Toguro ever beheaded on the show, unlike what Angus said. .3. Once I think about it, everyone he killed after that, he did with body shots. I think he beheaded his brother (never saw that uncut) but IDK since I stopped right before Chapter Black because my brother was leaving soon.
OK, Dark Tournament. So before this marathon, I missed the episodes where: 1. Kuwabara fights the rock shinobi leader guy. Don't know how any of those guys passed off as masters of stealth but whatever. :D 2. Hiei vs that fire guy. It makes me wonder how strong that guy actually was since afterwards they said Hiei's only chance of beating him was to use the Dragon Of The Darkness Flame which of course really fucks that guy up. Him splatting on the wall never gets old. 3. The episode in the Toguro/Yusuke fight where Yusuke takes those spirit cuffs off. That was a :o what the hell moment for me since I've never seen that or when his spirit energy formed into I believe a Phoenix after that. Pleasant surprised. Oh and Toguro of course turned skinny and then transformed in that episode. I always missed that. I remember seeing what it appeared to be Toguro teleported around in his "final" form on some preview on some DVD a friend had. That was also the first time hearing about Kuwabara "dying".
Let's see, I also got to see: all of Kuwabara/Elder Toguro. All of the Chu fight, namely him drinking which I've never seen. Noticed that Bui never had a formal introduction, he just came out of nowhere in an episode I've already seen. How much blood that makeup guy put on Kurama (I think the Toonami version just had him fall down and then that magic bend or whatever appeared on Kurama right afterwards and I just assumed that's how it went down, especially since it was edited so coolly.) Paid attention to the fact that Yusuke uses a punch to do Spirit Wave, not a kick. Don't know why I thought that. Noticed that that wound on Bui's forehead had nothing to do with his powers like I assumed it did, it's just a scar from Toguro punching him. Seeing Chu killing his two teammates. I was wondering if they actually fought. I never saw that part.
I also really paid attention to Toguro's motives this time. I think he made Yusuke (and Kuwabara) go through that so they'd be strong enough to not let what happened to his students happen to anyone or something like that. And apparently he really wanted to see if his way (you know, brute force and all of that) was better than Yusuke's (relying on his friends for strength). I'm still not sure how much of all the things Toguro said was just to get a reaction or whatnot. Basically pretty much everything he said to Yusuke or Genkai. He's hard to figure out, just like he was meant to be.
Lastly, Sakyo was a character I previously ignored before rewatching Resuce Yukina/Dark Tournament. A very interesting character. For the 1st time, I got to see his backstory which he told Koenma, which made me understand him. I also didn't know about the wager on their lives they places for the final round between their teams. Funny how Kuwabara's sister got more screentime than Yukina thanks to her 'relationship' with Sakyo and even though Yukina is tied to two of the 4 main characters, she was basically just there for a tiny bit of comic relief and to comfort Kuwabara. Anyway, I really loved all the scenes with Toguro and Sakyo, especially the funny ones. You know, Sakyo asking Toguro for a drink and then he goes, "No, but I'll take orange juice over ice.", them talking about how long winded Karasu was and how he loved the sound of his voice and the part where Toguro calls his brother a fool when he went on about Genkai, which me and my brother thought was hilarious (Also, all the times where people made fun of how old Genkai is, which is a lot)
Sorry for the long read but I did watch a shit load of episodes. This has cemented my love for my favorite arc ever, Dark Tournament and made Yu yu Hakusho go up a spot in my favorite anime list. It's #3 now.
So, I've been re-watching this show. As you all know, while I know that there are more sophisticated and deeper anime out there, this has always been my favorite anime, regardless, and that still hasn't changed (and I don't just mean my favorite shonen). Recently I've been re-watching a mix of the show, both subbed and dubbed. I've been watching random episodes, at that, rather than watching anything in sequence (and I didn't specifically pick my favorites, though I did only check out episodes from the DT and CB arcs). Now I did say that I think we made a mistake by ranking it so high (in our top 10) on the greatest animated series of all time list. I tried to look at this series objectively without bias, and yeah, its not a perfect series and it probably shouldn't have been ranked that high since even if some of us here love it, the series is a tough sell for those who don't like shonen or even anime, and unlike Cowboy Bebop or even NGE, it doesn't have nearly the wide appeal that those shows have (NGE has less appeal than CB, but it still has a lot of non-anime fans that like it, believe it or not).
That said, while I would lower the ranking of the show in an updated list, re-watching parts of it honestly makes me glad that we had the balls to put it that high on the list. Whether anyone agrees with me or not, I really think its so much more than just a typical shonen. I mean, yeah, its nothing like a deconstruction of the genre. Its not like what Watchmen is to the superhero genre with the shonen genre. But its rather the pinnacle of the genre, IMO, and at its pinnacle the genre can actually be quite effective, even for people who don't like it. Its not just the FUNimation dialogue that makes it great (and it is really a witty dub, especially for the time). This is when Togashi, IMO, was in his prime with his writing talent AND wrote his stories with a lot of heart to them (rather than with the later pieces of HXH, which do have great writing, but also have a lot of characters and themes that feel cold and soulless, even though that was intentional). The anime staff did an excellent job of adapting his material and even improving on it in most cases, IMO. I love this anime, and not just as an anime. I love it just as much as I love my favorite cartoons in general. Its one of my favorites along with the likes of BTAS, TSSM, and even Gargoyles. Yes, I know that's blasphemous to almost anyone else, but as someone who genuinely loves those cartoons, I hold this shonen anime to equal calibur. Maybe I'm biased and always will be and will be blind to how others view this show, but all I'm trying to say is that I don't regret ranking it so high on our list, and while I would move it down on an update, that'd only be to increase the credibility of our list to those who this show cannot and will never appeal to.
I just don't know what else to say except that I think that between the DT and CB arcs, that this series has some of the best writing and most interesting characters in broadcast television animation.
The characters is why I love Dark Tournament so much. But of course idiots write it off as a mindless action saga.
On the 3rd, I watched the first three episodes of Chapter Black and early this morning, I watched the 4th. These episodes are of course the mansion episodes. When Yusuke was captured I was thinking 'Hey, this is a chance for all the otger characters to shine.' Wrong. Only Kurama did. I already remembered how useless Hiei was for this saga and for these episodes, Kuwabara was as dumb as usual and Botan was comic relief that offers help sometimes.
As for Kurama though, these episodes were among his very best. He basically became the main character for a bit and he probably did his most intelligent feat in the entire show against Kaito. I also love how he suspected Genkai was behind all of it.
Oh and pre-mansion I like how Yusuke and Kuwabara seemed different. Other shounen would have just acted like a previous arc didn't happen and would have been more of the same
Yeah, other shonen series seem so hell-bent on returning all of the characters to status-quo after every major arc. Its like the writers are afraid of change and don't want their characters to grow, develop, and evolve. Togashi is one of the few manga writers who stays consistent with his characters and actually makes them go through changes over the course of the series. Yusuke and Kuwbara have clearly changed quite a bit when you compare them from before and after the Dark Tournament arc. In some ways they've both matured a little bit through their experiences. In Togashi's other series, Hunter X Hunter, he makes the main characters go through a lot of changes as the series progresses (all of those changes are natural developments in accordance with the plot and how events happen to them, and not just forced for the sake of it), and he has never once tried to bring things back to status-quo. Its like most other shonen writers are actively trying to just do more of the same because they don't know how to write for their characters if they change a little bit and potentially become fairly different characters from when they started. Togash actually has the talent to pull that off, and it makes his series' more interesting for it, IMO.
Going back on-topic to YYH, while there isn't a ton of development, I can proudly say as a fan that comparing the main characters from the beginning of the series to the end of the series, you can clearly see that they have all changed and matured in some significant way, without losing the core of what always made them the characters that they were in the first place.
I just want to get some opinions. What do you guys think of Genkai coming back at the end of the Dark Tournament?
I believe I've shared my opinion on this before, so rather than write it here again, I'll probably just dig it up somewhere from this thread and quote that as a response to your question.
::EDIT::
Ah, here it is:
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 24, 2011, 01:56:21 PM
When I think about it, I have one big complaint of my own that I wonder what other people might think about.
It has to do with the death of Genkai. Right before the final act of the DT arc, there is a brilliantly done episode in which Genkai gets killed by Toguro. It re-watched it recently and it was handled rather excellently in the anime and all that good stuff, but what kind of ruins the emotional impact that it had on me the first time that I watched it was knowing that Genkai would be brought back to life. Now, to be fair, this lead to her playing a fairly significant part in the Chapter Black arc, and she was still a great character to have around, but overall I still feel that this is the most disappointing thing the series has ever done for me (and there aren't a lot of instances like this, so I can generally forgive this one to some extent). Still, I really think it would have been for the better if Genkai had been killed off for good in the DT arc. It would have been interesting to see how Yusuke functioned on his own without his teacher later in in the Chapter Black arc, IMO. I think Togashi may have realized this to some extent, because he certainly doesn't cop-out when it comes to Hunter X Hunter in terms of characters getting killed off (though, most of the time he only kills off the minor ones). Also, to be fair, in the manga Genkai does at least pass away at the very end of the series (only off-panel, though). Still, I think it actually would have worked in the series's favor, and even positively effect Genkai's character in some ways, if she had died for real.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on August 06, 2012, 04:36:11 PM
I believe I've shared my opinion on this before, so rather than write it here again, I'll probably just dig it up somewhere from this thread and quote that as a response to your question.
::EDIT::
Ah, here it is:
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 24, 2011, 01:56:21 PM
When I think about it, I have one big complaint of my own that I wonder what other people might think about.
It has to do with the death of Genkai. Right before the final act of the DT arc, there is a brilliantly done episode in which Genkai gets killed by Toguro. It re-watched it recently and it was handled rather excellently in the anime and all that good stuff, but what kind of ruins the emotional impact that it had on me the first time that I watched it was knowing that Genkai would be brought back to life. Now, to be fair, this lead to her playing a fairly significant part in the Chapter Black arc, and she was still a great character to have around, but overall I still feel that this is the most disappointing thing the series has ever done for me (and there aren't a lot of instances like this, so I can generally forgive this one to some extent). Still, I really think it would have been for the better if Genkai had been killed off for good in the DT arc. It would have been interesting to see how Yusuke functioned on his own without his teacher later in in the Chapter Black arc, IMO. I think Togashi may have realized this to some extent, because he certainly doesn't cop-out when it comes to Hunter X Hunter in terms of characters getting killed off (though, most of the time he only kills off the minor ones). Also, to be fair, in the manga Genkai does at least pass away at the very end of the series (only off-panel, though). Still, I think it actually would have worked in the series's favor, and even positively effect Genkai's character in some ways, if she had died for real.
But on the other hand, I think bringing back Genkai brought out a big part of Toguro's character, and was the moment where I feel that his story arc came full circle, in that he had planned all this and really wasn't all bad in the end.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on August 06, 2012, 04:59:49 PM
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on August 06, 2012, 04:36:11 PM
I believe I've shared my opinion on this before, so rather than write it here again, I'll probably just dig it up somewhere from this thread and quote that as a response to your question.
::EDIT::
Ah, here it is:
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 24, 2011, 01:56:21 PM
When I think about it, I have one big complaint of my own that I wonder what other people might think about.
It has to do with the death of Genkai. Right before the final act of the DT arc, there is a brilliantly done episode in which Genkai gets killed by Toguro. It re-watched it recently and it was handled rather excellently in the anime and all that good stuff, but what kind of ruins the emotional impact that it had on me the first time that I watched it was knowing that Genkai would be brought back to life. Now, to be fair, this lead to her playing a fairly significant part in the Chapter Black arc, and she was still a great character to have around, but overall I still feel that this is the most disappointing thing the series has ever done for me (and there aren't a lot of instances like this, so I can generally forgive this one to some extent). Still, I really think it would have been for the better if Genkai had been killed off for good in the DT arc. It would have been interesting to see how Yusuke functioned on his own without his teacher later in in the Chapter Black arc, IMO. I think Togashi may have realized this to some extent, because he certainly doesn't cop-out when it comes to Hunter X Hunter in terms of characters getting killed off (though, most of the time he only kills off the minor ones). Also, to be fair, in the manga Genkai does at least pass away at the very end of the series (only off-panel, though). Still, I think it actually would have worked in the series's favor, and even positively effect Genkai's character in some ways, if she had died for real.
But on the other hand, I think bringing back Genkai brought out a big part of Toguro's character, and was the moment where I feel that his story arc came full circle, in that he had planned all this and really wasn't all bad in the end.
In my opinion what happened to Genkai gave a good light to both Toguro and Yusuke's character differences. Toguro took her life away and Yusuke gave her life (through other means of course, but he was responsible for the wish) hammering home the point that Toguro was completely wrong in the life he chose.
Of course, that's just my opinion.
I did feel like it was a bit of a copout that neither Genkai nor Kuwabara died due to the impact I felt about it. I actually felt the saddest about watching Genkai die when I finally watched all of DT last month and probably liked her a bit more afterwards. Seeing her comeback at the end was kind of cheap. For Kuwabara, I liked him much less back then but seeing a preview ahead of where
Quote from: gunswordfist on August 07, 2012, 02:58:25 PM
I did feel like it was a bit of a copout that neither Genkai nor Kuwabara died due to the impact I felt about it. I actually felt the saddest about watching Genkai die when I finally watched all of DT last month and probably liked her a bit more afterwards. Seeing her comeback at the end was kind of cheap. For Kuwabara, I liked him much less back then but seeing a preview ahead of where
When YYH aired on TV, Kuwabara's survival was spoiled for me one of the previews. :P
Quote from: talonmalon333 on August 07, 2012, 03:04:49 PMQuote from: gunswordfist on August 07, 2012, 02:58:25 PMI did feel like it was a bit of a copout that neither Genkai nor Kuwabara died due to the impact I felt about it. I actually felt the saddest about watching Genkai die when I finally watched all of DT last month and probably liked her a bit more afterwards. Seeing her comeback at the end was kind of cheap. For Kuwabara, I liked him much less back then but seeing a preview ahead of where
When YYH aired on TV, Kuwabara's survival was spoiled for me one of the previews. :P
I actually saw it way before it aired on Cartoon Network which made it REAL shocking for me. I kind of like seeing how drastic things get later in some series.
Anyway, today I continued to watch more of Chapter Black. I'm getting a real respect for this arc now:
Episode 71 thoughts: Another reminder that Botan is not the only Grim Reaper...or whatever. And she's the leader. Sensui finally talks. Dear God does he have like the coolest theme music ever. So wait...can one S class demon defeat King Yama (sp?) and his armies or do they mean them as a whole or whatever? And the Three Kings and whatever class of..S class demons are called Super S class, huh? Like before that I just decided to call them S + class demons, lol. Can't believe I missed that info the first time I watched it.
Episode 72: OK, why didn't Copy just keep Reader's powers and have him stay out of that miss? Is it because he has some kind of limit on them? Once I think about it, I guess Togashi just wanted to make us feel sorry for him after what happens to him in a later episode by getting to know him a little better. Oh and the whole Elder Toguro setup. Guess that makes sense.
Ingenious how they didn't kill Reader not because of Genkai's explanation of a warning. She got it wrong. Sniper just injured him so they could go to the hospital and be put in a trap by Doctor. I'm not even on his episode yet but I can see the setup already. Ingenious.
Interesting how Yusuke was scared of Sensui. I expected him to say something stupid like, "Uh, I forgot to attack the guy." since earlier in the series that would have been a perfect setup for a Yusuke being stupid joke. But instead we got to hear Yusuke great first impression of Sensui. I like how Sensui is more...menacing then all the other previous villains. Kind of like what Yusuke said, we got a better feel of what the other villains were about but Sensui is more of a mystery. I'm still trying to figure him out myself. More specifically how much of a bad guy he is and what his motives really are.
I believe S-Class isn't just in power, but in unpredictability of potential. The whole class system is kind of confusing, but I think that's always been consistent.
I don't think it's that bad...except when trying to figure out the classes of demons like Rando (Mr. "I'm impervious to human attacks" (wait, does that mean Genkai can't beat him up like she did the more powerful Onji or whatever his name is with her fists) and "I can make my spirit gun stronger than any human's) and the latest head scratcher is the fire demon that was Hiei's first opponent. If Hiei had to use the Darkness Flame because he was that much more powerful than him then does that mean that Zero or however the heck you spell his name was more powerful than Yusuke and Chu(sp?) at the time? Guh. I can go on forever. Togashi certainly does a good job at making important villains seem so powerful but these sometimes it creates confusion.
I think those guys were just overconfident and talking smack.
Obviously Genkai could have creamed Rando, but she was more interested in finding the best candidate for taking her techniques.
Quote from: gunswordfist on August 08, 2012, 09:01:46 PM
I don't think it's that bad...except when trying to figure out the classes of demons like Rando (Mr. "I'm impervious to human attacks" (wait, does that mean Genkai can't beat him up like she did the more powerful Onji or whatever his name is with her fists) and "I can make my spirit gun stronger than any human's) and the latest head scratcher is the fire demon that was Hiei's first opponent. If Hiei had to use the Darkness Flame because he was that much more powerful than him then does that mean that Zero or however the heck you spell his name was more powerful than Yusuke and Chu(sp?) at the time? Guh. I can go on forever. Togashi certainly does a good job at making important villains seem so powerful but these sometimes it creates confusion.
Actually, yes, it was implied that Zeru was more powerful than Chu and the rest of his team in general. A lot of people think for some reason that Chu was the leader of the team just because he fought Yusuke, but that was never mentioned anywhere in either the manga or the anime. He was just one of the members who originally wasn't supposed to fight since he lost rock-paper-scissors in deciding which team members got to go (since there were 6 of them in total, and they were over the limit). Zeru was clearly shown to be the one to worry about, and while I don't remember anything that directly confirmed him as the leader, it was at least implied that he was the strongest of the team by both Kurama and Hiei. That's why Hiei had to use the Dragon on him, since he knew that he was otherwise outclassed by Zeru at the time.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on August 08, 2012, 09:16:44 PM
Quote from: gunswordfist on August 08, 2012, 09:01:46 PM
I don't think it's that bad...except when trying to figure out the classes of demons like Rando (Mr. "I'm impervious to human attacks" (wait, does that mean Genkai can't beat him up like she did the more powerful Onji or whatever his name is with her fists) and "I can make my spirit gun stronger than any human's) and the latest head scratcher is the fire demon that was Hiei's first opponent. If Hiei had to use the Darkness Flame because he was that much more powerful than him then does that mean that Zero or however the heck you spell his name was more powerful than Yusuke and Chu(sp?) at the time? Guh. I can go on forever. Togashi certainly does a good job at making important villains seem so powerful but these sometimes it creates confusion.
Actually, yes, it was implied that Zeru was more powerful than Chu and the rest of his team in general. A lot of people think for some reason that Chu was the leader of the team just because he fought Yusuke, but that was never mentioned anywhere in either the manga or the anime. He was just one of the members who originally wasn't supposed to fight since he lost rock-paper-scissors in deciding which team members got to go (since there were 6 of them in total, and they were over the limit). Zeru was clearly shown to be the one to worry about, and while I don't remember anything that directly confirmed him as the leader, it was at least implied that he was the strongest of the team by both Kurama and Hiei. That's why Hiei had to use the Dragon on him, since he knew that he was otherwise outclassed by Zeru at the time.
Yes, if I recall correctly, what was dangerous about Chu was that they couldn't get a read on him because of his abilities. I don't believe they ever said he was the team's strongest.
Zeru just had bad luck having to fight Hiei.
I meant with her bare hands and not spirit energy. Of course she could have destroyed Rando with ease.
I'm also concerned more by what other characters say and not just the villains bragging. Still bothered by that bald guy who could fire his version of the spirit gun as much as he wanted to from Genkai's tournament. That doesn't even make sense.
As for EK, Zeru is definitely the team leader BUT I assumed that Chu was a "the more powerful, wild card" type of character. I'm still not convinced that Zeru is stronger than Chu. Zeru was...well dead when Chu came so Kurama and Hiei never compared him to Chu. Very confusing.
I think the point was that the "Onji" was actually extremely weak physically which is how Genkai could beat him without any spiritual energy. He was extremely proficient in skills, techniques, and attack styles but his physical strength was probably the lowest of anyone in the entire DT arc.
I think the whole thing with the ninja who could fire so many spirit gun blasts was that was better trained than Yusuke was in pretty much everything including how to use spiritual energy which is something Yusuke didn't learn until after the fight. I doubt he could fire it "forever" it just seemed like it in contrast to Yusuke's then piddling spiritual abilities.
Yeah, Yusuke was clearly outclassed by some of his competitor's in Genkai's tournament. Truth be told, he only won his last 2 matches by pure luck.
Didn't Kurama say something along the lines of Chu's power being even greater than Zeru's?
Quote from: talonmalon333 on August 09, 2012, 12:28:37 AM
Didn't Kurama say something along the lines of Chu's power being even greater than Zeru's?
I think there was something like that, but it was basically closer to "His power might even surpass that of Zeru's" indicating that they couldn't gauge him.
If he did it must have only been in the anime (and most likely the dub, at that). I've been re-reading the manga recently (the Viz translations, to be specific), and recall him saying no such thing when I read it. I do remember him acknowledging Zeru's superior strength to Hiei, though.
This is COMPLETELY random, but I just searched YYH on tumblr out of boredom, and I saw that someone wants Victoria Justice to play Keiko in a live-action adaptation.
The crazy part? I can actually see that work out.
And I just saw that same person want Demi to play Botan. I am not making that up.
Edit: uh, it looks like an RP combining anime characters and celebs, in Portugese. What a strange combination.
:shit:
Anyway, just got done watching episode 73 and 74.
73: I like how the group spreaded out like Doctor was going to attack them head on. Yet again, they get attacked in a different way that shocks the group. I think this episode had the most human deaths in the entire series.
74: I love the change of animation for recaps of what happened at the end of a previous episode.
Why the hell did Keiko and whatshername go up towards the danger.
I love how the minor psychic characters played their part in the Doctor fight and weren't just useless. They all helped out Yusuke.
Also love how Genkai isn't useless either. If this was an arc where all the villains went over 9000 then she would have just stayed home. Instead she can stick around using her intelligence and still give Yusuke some pointers.
OK, I got to say the end of Sleep, Doctor, Sleep was as dumb as the stupid romantic comedy ending Michael Bay's The Rock had. Did they actually just hand over Doctor to the police? If it weren't his part of the story to go away until Topside, he would have just slaughtered them and got away. Did they even interrogate him one bit? Genkai, Kurama and Kaito could have worked out something and got some information. I get it was about Yusuke fearing to kill someone and then getting over that test or whatever but come on. And yeah, I know they left fast because of the police but leaving a psychotic psychic behind isn't the best option.
The doctor was almost dead. Genkai saved his life, she didn't heal him. As we learned, his body isn't invincible he just doesn't feel the pain, and I believe after Yusuke beat him he stopped using his powers. Also, the doctor didn't kill anyone, he paralyzed them all because he wanted them to suffer when the gate opened.
But looking after one of the physics was pretty impossible when there are still more than 6 others roaming around ready to kill them or innocents especially when they're on a time limit. Dealing with the police would have been more of an obstacle than anything else at that point.
I assumed the Doctor could still use his powers since all the others had no problems doing so after they were badly hurt and Doctor clearly had more time to heal.
Yeah, but Doctor's abilities didn't grant him some super-strength that made him resistant to bullets or something. A cop could easily take him down like any normal psycho if he tried to attack them or anyone else. The ending made perfect sense, too, since it wouldn't have been a good idea for Yusuke and the others to have to deal with the cops when they still had the rest of the psychics to hunt down.
Quote from: gunswordfist on August 09, 2012, 07:04:33 PM
I assumed the Doctor could still use his powers since all the others had no problems doing so after they were badly hurt and Doctor clearly had more time to heal.
One thing that I don't think was explored was how long a territory takes to rebuild after it is broken, but every single psychic who has lost their territory in the arc usually loses consciousness for a good while. To envelope the police station would probably take a long time, even for him.
All it takes is for the cops to put him in a straightjacket or something and until his bones heal, he can't really do much of anything.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on August 09, 2012, 07:05:19 PM
Yeah, but Doctor's abilities didn't grant him some super-strength that made him resistant to bullets or something. A cop could easily take him down like any normal psycho if he tried to attack them or anyone else. The ending made perfect sense, too, since it wouldn't have been a good idea for Yusuke and the others to have to deal with the cops when they still had the rest of the psychics to hunt down.
What the...?! The cops wouldn't know what they would be up against. He'd have no problem beating enough to get away. Spark's explanation was good enough. Quit talking. :bleh:
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on August 09, 2012, 07:14:46 PM
Quote from: gunswordfist on August 09, 2012, 07:04:33 PM
I assumed the Doctor could still use his powers since all the others had no problems doing so after they were badly hurt and Doctor clearly had more time to heal.
One thing that I don't think was explored was how long a territory takes to rebuild after it is broken, but every single psychic who has lost their territory in the arc usually loses consciousness for a good while. To envelope the police station would probably take a long time, even for him.
All it takes is for the cops to put him in a straightjacket or something and until his bones heal, he can't really do much of anything.
I believe Doctor was just handcuffed at most and territories take a second to fill a space. Seriously, let's change the subject. The IQ is going down in this thread.
Lets also not forget that his part of the plan was over, IIRC he didn't care what happened to him after that.
Quote from: gunswordfist on August 09, 2012, 07:18:01 PM
What the...?! The cops wouldn't know what they would be up against. He'd have no problem beating enough to get away. Spark's explanation was good enough. Quit talking. :bleh:
Yeah, he'd escape an entire police station and would with a ton of armed guys just ready and willing to shoot him. The guy doesn't have super-fast reflexes to the point of allowing him to take out a dozen or so men before they draw their guns. This is classic GSF logic and its finest. You clearly think with you're DBZ-logic in mind and don't figure that there are more police than just those 2 guys sitting in the room with him. Also, his territory would take longer than just a few seconds to infect in the entire station, and even if it did its not like he wouldn't be hunted down if he tried to escape.
Using Yusuke's own words: "You shouldn't talk, it makes you sound stupid." ;)
It's not like Doctor can't escape and change his identity or anything. Nope, EK has this all figured out. :>
Quote from: gunswordfist on August 10, 2012, 08:47:46 PM
It's not like Doctor can't escape and change his identity or anything. Nope, EK has this all figured out. :>
Right, he's going to escape an entire police station and nobody is going to lift a gun against him in the first place. This is why everyone calls you an idiot. At what point was it said that Doctor was imperveous to bullets? Changing his identity doesn't do shit if he hasn't already escaped yet. Escaping is the thing I said he can't do.
Typical GSF. :sly:
Yeah, it's not like Doctor didn't reveal that he escaped in Topside..oh wait.. :humhumhum:
Quote from: gunswordfist on August 10, 2012, 10:08:54 PM
Yeah, it's not like Doctor didn't reveal that he escaped in Topside..oh wait.. :humhumhum:
He had recovered by that time, dumb-shit. Or did you not listen to a word Desensitized said. Man, you really are an idiot. :>
I was surprised to hear that Elder Toguro counted as a upper B level demon.
Quote from: gunswordfist on August 10, 2012, 10:11:40 PM
I was surprised to hear that Elder Toguro counted as a upper B level demon.
Where was that stated in the TV series? I've been re-reading the manga and haven't seen that mentioned anywhere, yet, and its been a while since I've watched the Chapter Black arc (which I'm assuming is where you heard it from).
I find that hard to believe, though, since Elder Toguro clearly didn't seem to be on the level of his younger brother, who himself was confirmed to be an upper B class in the CB arc by Koenma.
Koenma said he was a high level B demon along with his brother, in comparison to Hiei who was mid B level at the time. I just watched that days ago so I can confirm that.
I think it has more to do with ability than power in ET's case. I'm guessing how good his healing ability is classified him as being on that level. At least that's the best explanation I can come up with. He's clearly nowhere near as strong as Younger.
Saw some old YYH videos at the library, like back when they had 2-3 episodes to a disc, although I'm not sure if I should try to grab those (volumes 30-40)? Already have the boxsets 1-3.
Heh, Megalicca. Kind of obvious what episode I watched last night.
Yesterday, I watched the episode that concluded the Seaman fight. Probably Kuwabara's 2nd best episode.
Just watched episode 77, Sensui's fall late last night/up until a few minutes ago today.
I clearly never seen this episode uncut. Interesting how Sensui said he handed out judgment even back then. I never knew he actually killed all of those humans. And either forgot/didn't know that Koenma trained him. I was wondering if Sensui could actually use his spirit awareness to know exactly what power someone is about to get and he revealed he could in this episode. So that confirms that he'd just outsmart anyone who uses a territory on him (like Reader) and beat them. Loved how the beginning of his first Yusuke fight started.
OK, that was a lot. I'm going to continue trying to figure out Sensui starting by watching another episode.
Sensui's Fall is one of my favorite episodes in the series. This along with Toguro's Wish are really good at both exploring the pasts of these villains and also giving you a good look into what warped their pscyhe into becoming the people they eventually turned out to be.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on August 16, 2012, 12:47:26 AM
Sensui's Fall is one of my favorite episodes in the series. This along with Toguro's Wish are really good at both exploring the pasts of these villains and also giving you a good look into what warped their pscyhe into becoming the people that they eventually turned out to be.
Yeah, I'm loving how the main villains are getting episodes like this. Sensui's Fall gave me such a better understanding of the character.
Watched episode 78 soon after that. I love how different the Sensui fight is because Yusuke at least hits the villain once by now but he can't touch Sensui at all. The chase itself is kind of humorous because Sensui keeps on going like, "Hey look, I'm over here!" *they chase him.
Sensui was taunting Yusuke to follow him on purpose. Their whole strategy was to divide up the team so that they'd have an easier time capturing and getting away with Kuwabara, so Sensui made sure that at least one of them would stay on his trail, while he got Sniper and a couple of his other followers to occupy the other members. As Kurama himself deduced in that episode you just watched, they were basically dividing them up to execute their plan.
Also, you only got to see Yusuke and Sensui have a skirmish here, but as you'll later see Sensui say himself, in his current state he's actually weaker than Yusuke (and by extension Toguro, as well). The reason he's able to toy with Yusuke so much is because he's pure skill. His 30+ years (I think that's how long it was) of experience trumps anything Yusuke can throw at him, because even if he has the edge in power and speed Sensui can predict most of his moves because he still fights like such an amateur. In that regard, Sensui's probably on the level of Genkai in terms of expert fighting skill (the difference is that Genkai's max power is far below a B class fighter after she gave Yusuke her Spirit Orb which considerably weakened her).
Of course, once he becomes "Shinobi" Sensui, all of that talk goes out the window.
I know that's what he was trying to do, I just thought the actual chase was funny.
And I know that about Sensui and was thinking about that. I like the fact that in his current state he's weaker and relies on skill and trying to wear down Yusuke with different attacks he can't defend to try and beat him. I also love how the fight ends with that personality losing it's cool when Yusuke beats him by fighting dirty. That's probably how Yusuke would beat him if he fought Sensui from 10 years ago.
So, I got bored and decided to honor my favorite shonen anime by listing off my top 10 favorite episodes from the series and stating a couple of reasons as to why each of them are some of my favorites in the series (I'll split it into 2 entries). Now, this is not an episodic show, so of course most of these episodes aren't going to make good stand-alone episodes, but the point of this list is to honor my favorite points of the series, so consider these episodes to be high-points in an overall fantastic adaptation.
Here is the first half of my picks (I'll be using FUNimation's English titles for the episodes for easier recognition):
10. Flowers of Blood (Episode #029)
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This is one of the earlier Dark Tournament episodes, and while this arc didn't have the grandest of beginnings, this is the first episode where shit really got serious. After an admittedly weak opening match between Kuwabara and Rinku, we immediately transitioned into a match featuring the esteemed strategist of Team Urameshi, Kurama. This episode is basically a foreboding message of why you do not ever want to try and fuck with Kurama's personal life. In this match, he faces a sleezy opponent called Roto, who knows fully well that he doesn't stand a chance against the skill and cunning of Kurama, unless he can outwit him, or so he thinks. He claims to Kurama that he has his beloved mother under surveillance by one of his underlings, and can remotely give him the order to execute her by pressing the button of a certain device he is carrying. He basically forces Kurama to have to let him win the match to save his only family. However Roto makes the mistake of trying to have fun with the predicament that he put Kurama in, and orders Kurama to offer up no resistance as he mercilessly beats him to a pulp. This is kind of strange to watch considering that Kurama is the most dignified member of the main group in the series and seeing him at an enemy's mercy like this for the very first time is a bit upsetting, especially when Roto finally tries to shred the last of Kurama's dignity by ordering him to lick his boot.
Of course, Kurama is the ultimate strategist for a reason, and without spoiling how he does it, lets just say that Roto ends up paying for the cost of trying to toy with Kurama and his mother, BIG TIME! Most people initally have the impression that Hiei is the cruelest and most cold-hearted of the group, but this episode proves that Kurama has the most stern mentality. If you ever dare to screw with his emotions by threatening someone he loves, you can bet that he will pay you back 10 times over with the cruelest of punishments that he can think of. Oddly enough, Roto meeting his death in this match so quickly is him getting off easy compared to what Kurama does to a certain other enemy in an episode that may or may not show up later on this list.
9. Surprised to be Dead (Episode #001)
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The very first episode of the series, and what can I really say about it that already hasn't been said? How many series do you know of that have a beginning as unique as this, where the main character literally dies in the very first scene? So, basically Yusuke Urameashi is a street punk who regularly cuts school and has nothing looking up in his life. His father is nowhere to be seen and presumably abandoned him before he was even born, and his mother is a drunk who's line of work is never revealed but pretty questionable. Yusuke's whole school lives in fear of him due to false beliefs about his persona, his teacher's despise him, he only has one friend who has known him since childhood, Keiko, and even she is regularly pissed at him. The closest other person he has to a friend is his school street punk rival Kuwabara, who he enjoys giving a good ass-kicking every now and then. Of course, there's more to Yusuke than meets the eye, and after being fatally wounded in an accident as he pushes an innocent child out of the way of an oncoming car, Yusuke finds himself in an out of body experience as a ghost, meets a female Grim Reaper who goes by the name of Botan, and is basically lead to his own funeral to see most of his classmates and teachers mock his death, but also to discover that there are a few people who considered his life to be worth something. Its an episode that's not only unique, but really touching, and is the perfect kick-starter to this series, as it really gets you to want to keep watching to see what happens next. I couldn't think of a better or more unique first episode to a show like this, myself.
8. The Shadow of Elder Toguro (Episode #059)
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This is yet another Dark Tournament episode. This time its Kuwabara going up against the older Toguro brother. Now while we all know that Younger Toguro was the real muscle between the brothers, Elder Toguro should not be dismissed as one of YYH's great villains. Of course, he's not the 3-dimensional sort of character that villains like his younger brother or Sensui are, but he's the perfect type of villain that fits under the "love to hate" category. Every aspect of this character is sick and twisted, and this episode really demonstrates that aspect of him.
Kuwabara at this point is the only member of Team Urameashi who did not know that Genkai had passed on. When Elder Toguro realizes that his teammates have hidden the news from him, he uses this to both his advantage and for his own sick and twisted entertainment. For one thing, by revealing Genkai's death to Kuwabara, he tries to warp his emotions by implanting distrust of his team in his head for not informing him of her demise at Younger Toguro's hands. Elder Toguro being the sick bastard that he is, though, takes things too far and then starts talking extremely dirty about Genkai, insulting her for not choosing the path of eternal youth and life like he and his brother took, and then going so far as to spew out profanity about his sexual interests in her younger body. He gets so demented with his speech that it even manages to disgust his younger brother and his team manager, Sakyo (and that's saying A LOT). Needless to say, he isn't very bright, and his "speech" ends up enraging Kuwabara to a new extreme, allowing him to really tap into the depths of his power and bring him more opposition than he bargained for. I won't spoil the results of the match for you, but suffice it to say that its not a pretty site to behold. The bottom line, though, is that this episode is great in both portraying how dark and twisted of a villain Elder Toguro is while also being a great character moment for Kuwabara. Basically you get both a memorable villain and hero for the price of one memorable episode.
7. Haunted by the Past/Secret of the Jagan (Episode #099-100)
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One thing that I love about YYH is that every one of its main characters gets their own grand episode or set of episodes that really explore the depths of their character. In this case these episodes are all about Hiei, his past, and his distant relationship with this younger sister Yukina. The first of these 2 episodes mainly explores Hiei's past and how he became an outcast at birth. He was born in a clan of all-female ice demons due to his mother having partaken in a forbidden act by mating with a male outsider demon. The elder of the clan feared that Hiei would grow up to be a cruel and gruesome man and bring destruction to their entire village, so she forced Hiei's mother to cast him to his death by throwing him into a river. Of course Hiei survived and was eventually found and taken in by a group of bandits, where Hiei was raised throughout his childhood and grew stronger until one day even the bandits feared his strength and abandoned him. Alone again Hiei eventually decided that he wanted to return to his home village to take revenge on them for their atrocious crime against him, however not knowing where the village was actually located he could only find it by way of the Jagan Eye. Thus he traveled to a demon surgeon known as Shigure who performed an operation implanting the eye within him in exchange for the ice crystal his mother gave him at birth before casting him off. The operation also sapped much of the strength that he had acquired, so Shigure became his teacher and trained him in sword-fighting and general battle skills. After a few months Hiei leaves on his quest and eventually gets involved in other matters that lead him to the current portion of the story.
In the 2nd of these episodes, Hiei is attempting to become a top general for one of the Three Kings of the demon world, Mokuro, as the entire plain is on the verge of erupting into war. However, in order to do so he must fight for the position against the other top contender seeking that position, his old teacher Shigure. Without spoiling much, its a really well-done backstory and conflict, and for these episodes I must give more credit to the anime staff than Togashi as this was the point in which Togashi was getting extremely lazy with this manga and the anime writers had to improvise by filling in new material and still keeping it interesting, and this is probably their best effort when it comes to the Three Kings arc.
6. Toguro's Wish (Episode #066)
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This is the final episode of the Dark Tournament arc, and what a way to send off one of the greatest shonen villains of all time. At this point Toguro has already met his death after his intense battle with Yusuke, and he meets with Koenma in the Spirit World to have his fate in the after-life decided for him. Koenma tries to go easy on him with a lighter sentence, however Toguro won't accept it and opts out to go into purgatory and face thousands of years of torture for the various sins that he had committed throughout his life. Before walking off to deal with his punishment, he meets with Genkai for one last time and they discuss their past. I won't spend a whole long paragraph describing it all as you should really watch this episode, but suffice it to say that this episode is a perfect example of why Togashi is so damn good at crafting great villains. You get a lot of insight into Toguro's history and how his psyche was affected when all of his students were murdered by a demon, and how he sought out revenge by gaining power and then entering the Dark Tournament, and basically mutilated that demon. However in his hunger for the power that he needed to get to that point he had changed a lot, and upon winning the Tournament he asked the underground businessmen who ran it to use their top scientists to make him into a demon in order to further increase his power, thus turning him into the very thing that he initially hated so much and took his revenge on. There's more to Toguro's character than what I just explained, but that's just a brief summary of what this episode goes over. Really, its just a great character piece in general.
Anyways, these are my first 5 entries. Now discuss them....
I remember watching 10 for the first time and thinking "HOLY SHIT, Kurama has balls". We've already learned that he was a badass before, but this just confirms it.
And of course 9 is a classic.
I haven't seen 8 in a while, but I remember it well enough to agree that it's a great choice.
I need to get the last volume soon, since I haven't seen #7 yet, but it sounds really good.
But yes, 6 is yet another classic, and does indeed show how strong of a character younger Toguro was.
Great choices so far man!
Thanks. It really is hard coming up with a list like this especially since this is not an episodic show and there are so many great episodes and moments that I'll have to leave out of this list, but after having watched the series about 7+ times I selected these episodes as the ones that I feel resonate with me the most.
Ironically I haven't put up any Chapter Black episodes in the first half of my list, but when I think about it the CB arc works better as a whole whereas the individual episodes rely a bit too heavily on continuity to the point of it being really hard to select out single episodes from the arc to put on a list like this. Even so, its still by far the best story arc in the series, and of course you'll see some CB episodes among my top 5 entries when I post that up (presumably sometime tomorrow).
Yeah, I was expecting to see some CB in the second half when I didn't see any of it on here. I'm sure I have an idea for some of the ones that'll make it.
I'm sure people complain about how slow YYH starts all the time but I'll never understand that. I love those first few episodes so much.
The scene after the Elder Toguro fight is my favorite Yusuke/Kuwabara scene. Their conversation goes into how Yusuke thinks and Yusuke shows that he does actual respect Kuwabara (I believe there was a bit of doubt to that). Hell, one of the best dialogue exchanges in the series. It doesn't come off as cheesy or anything.
Actually, the bandit leader literally turned his back on Hiei because he didn't respect the fact that Hiei just went from one fight to another and killed too much even for a member of a bandit gang.
I really like Hiei's back story, and I really give kudos to the anime staff for taking Togashi's laziness and filling in all the holes to make it great. It took a 'cool' character and made him great, which is a pretty high compliment.
They did sort of the same thing with Yomi and Kurama, but Togashi didn't do anything with it so the anime staff could only go so far, but it was nice that they tried.
Here are 2 more entries (I was too lazy to write all 5):
5. Kuwabara: A Promise Between Men (Episode #003)
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This is once again one of the earlier episodes of the series, but it really is one of the best, and the more I see it the more appreciation I have for it. You know how I say that shonen stories aren't inherently bad and can be really memorable when done right? This episode is a prime example of that. It takes place during the first arc of the show where Yusuke is still in the form of a ghost and is currently holding the spirit egg that Koenma gave him in the previous episode, so he has to be on his best behavior as he has been forewarned that the egg will feed off of the deeds that he performs as an apparition, meaning that if he does good deeds then the egg could hatch into something that will be of use to him, whereas if he performs bad deeds the egg will eventually hatch into something that could potentially devour his soul. After a brief introduction the story quickly shifts focus to Kuwabara. Up until now, he has been introduced as Urameshi's rival but not much else was really revealed about him besides that. Yusuke happens to see him and his friends get into a skirmish with a group of punks from a rival school, after which they get caught by one of his teachers, and unfortunately its one of the sleeziest dirtbags in the school who completely has it out for Kuwabara's type. It just so turns out that Kuwabara's friend Okubo, who was also in the fight, has a job under special permission from the school so that he can help support his family, however the teacher threatens to have that liberty taken away from him, until Kuwabara steps in and says that he'll take the brunt of the punishment in place of his friends.
They eventually work out a deal in which the teacher agrees not to take away Okubo's job if Kuwabara and his friends each score more than 50 points on their next science exam. However he also tacks on an additional caveat, telling Kuwabara that he can also not be caught in any more street fights for the next week leading up to the exam otherwise the deal is off. So now Kuwabara has to hit the books while also ducking around every corner as he basically becomes a giant target once word gets out that Kuwabara cannot fight back against any opposition (and everyone knows that Kuwabara is a man of his word). Overall, this is the first, and IMO the best episode to show just how great of a character Kuwabara really is. He's not very bright nor is he very skilled, but he has possibly the most resilience out of any of the main characters in the series. When he says he'll do something he'll carry it out at any cost, and he'll respect any part of an agreement that he makes, no matter how absurd it is. This feat of bravery even manages to win Yusuke over to help his cause, which also leads to one particular funny moment later in the episode where Yusuke takes full advantage of his ghostly abilities. This really is a terrific and honestly very underrated episode in the show. Its just such a classic shonen story done right in just about every conceivable way, and it completely works as a stand-alone episode, as well.
4. The Doctor's Disease/Sleep, Doctor, Sleep (Episodes #073-074)
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Avaitor already knows how much I love these episodes. I have to say, while he only appeared in just a few episodes in the entire series (and a majority of his screen-time belongs to these 2 episodes), Doctor proved to be a really memorable and creative villain. This is during the early segment of the Chapter Black arc where Yusuke and company have already made their way into the heart of Mushiyori City. In the previous episode Yusuke had managed to pick up a mind reader after knocking him out in an initial confrontation. The reader then agreed to use his psychic abilities to help Yusuke and the others locate Black Angel (they didn't know the true name/identity of Sensui, at the time, as Koenma had concealed that information from them). The reader does manage to identify the target, but before he can say anything he becomes a target himself as he is knocked unconscious by Sniper, who mostly serves as Sensui's right-hand man throughout the first half of the CB arc.
Now Sniper could have easily killed their mind reader, but knocking him out was a deliberate plan of his in order to lure Yusuke and all of his group to the nearest hospital, which was Doctor's territory. Upon sensing that they were in another psychic's territory in the hospital and realizing that strange demon bugs were flying around (that were basically invisible to any normal people), they quickly split up and spread out to look for their next target. This leads to a great scene in which Kido runs into a doctor and nurse, warning them that their is an impostor among their staff. The doctor seemingly takes the threat seriously and agrees to help search for the false doctor, until the nurse questioningly asks the doctor why he is present in the hospital when it is not his shift. Unfortunately, Kido had his back to the doctor at this point, so even though he immediately realizes what's going on, its too late, as Kamiya (aka Doctor) uses his abilities to cut off Kido's spinal function and completely paralyzes him in addition to wounding him, and also slashing the nurse across the chest which causes her to fall unconscious in shock.
That scene also leads to yet another great scene in which after Yusuke finds Kido's paralyze body, Kido manages to use his psychic ability to stop Yusuke from leaving and spell out the Doctor's name and identity in his own blood. Once Yusuke sets his sights on Kamiya, they start their battle which transitions into the next episode. Now the thing about this battle is that its really just psychological. Doctor has had his demon bugs poison all of the people present in the hospital. Normally to stop the effects of a psychics ability they would either have to be knocked uncounscious or killed. It just so turns out that Doctor can manipulate the hormones and substances in his body to keep himself from every falling unconscious or even feeling pain. This presumably leaves Yusuke with only one option of killing him, but up to this point Yusuke has never had to take a human life before (unless you count the "questionable" defeat of a certain ninja in Genkai's Tournament early on in the series, but he was never actually confirmed dead, so I guess you could argue that he survived that battle). This episode leads to some great moments and banter between Yusuke and Doctor, as Yusuke questions whether he's really willing to kill another human for once, and ultimately decides that he has to make that sacrifice in order to save hundreds more, but I won't say how the episode actually ends. I will say that its really a great set of episodes featuring a really unique and underrated villain, and it also serves as a really good character moment for Yusuke. It also has some surprisingly good animation in some scenes, and overall I think its among YYH's best set of episodes, though for whatever reason I'm pretty alone on that opinion.
I'll try and post up my top 3 entries sometime tomorrow.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on September 09, 2012, 09:57:03 PM
I really like Hiei's back story, and I really give kudos to the anime staff for taking Togashi's laziness and filling in all the holes to make it great. It took a 'cool' character and made him great, which is a pretty high compliment.
They did sort of the same thing with Yomi and Kurama, but Togashi didn't do anything with it so the anime staff could only go so far, but it was nice that they tried.
Actually, I really loved Kurama's back-story as well, and had considered it putting it on my list, but after re-watching the episodes themselves, I felt that the staff did a noticeably stronger job crafting Hiei's back-story than Kurama's (though I love both, and give high praise to the anime staff for clearly showing that they care about the series with those episodes).
Yep, #4 was when I realized that YYH was the best shonen out there. If you are on the fence with this series or this arc WATCH THIS TWO PARTER. It features my favorite fight in the series and probably in all of anime, features some great character moments, is genuinely unpredictable, and the ending is both gripping and a bit touching. You know what I said about liking the Death Note ending because it was about good prevailing? Well this goes a bit deeper into that and I think Yusuke grows a lot in this two parter and it really reaffirms him as a good guy when throughout this arc he's constantly painted by Sensui as the 'bad' guy.
I posted the fight scene in another thread and its just so good in every aspect.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on September 09, 2012, 10:38:06 PM
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on September 09, 2012, 09:57:03 PM
I really like Hiei's back story, and I really give kudos to the anime staff for taking Togashi's laziness and filling in all the holes to make it great. It took a 'cool' character and made him great, which is a pretty high compliment.
They did sort of the same thing with Yomi and Kurama, but Togashi didn't do anything with it so the anime staff could only go so far, but it was nice that they tried.
Actually, I really loved Kurama's back-story as well, and has considered it putting it on my list, but after re-watching the episodes themselves, I felt that the staff did a noticeably stronger job crafting Hiei's back-story than Kurama's (though I love both, and give high praise to the anime staff for clearly showing that they care about the series with those episodes).
I like it too, I just meant in that how Togashi kind of cut Yomi off when he abruptly abandoned the arc in the manga that it never really got a resolution so the anime staff had to pull that together themselves. As I've said before, Togashi was REALLY lucky he got a staff as good as this.
SLEEP DOCTOR SLEEP IS ONLY #4?
I was expecting that to be #1. Good show though!
I remember sing #5 as an example of how strong Kuwabara's character was back on tv.com. Not only that, but its existence is more proof that the show was great right from the beginning, and the first episode wasn't a fluke. You get so much out of this one episode.
I wasn't aware you guys liked the Doctor so much. Watching that on Toonami was one of my favorite moments.
Oh man, it's such a good representation of the show at its best. If you want to get someone into the show and the first couple of episodes were "too slow" for them, for whatever reason that could be, show them this 2-parter.
I have to really give it to the animation team and direction on this one, too. In the manga it's still really good, but the anime staff hit it out of the park with how foreboding the whole situation was.
I also really enjoy the dub's take on it; "PRONOUNCED DEAD" is such a creepy line and delivery but it works great.
I remember Greg X once saying that he didn't see what made this show anything special. I don't know if he ever watched this 2-parter, but if something like this couldn't convince him or anyone else how great this show truly is, I don't know what else could. It basically proves everyone who calls this show another generic shonen series flat-out wrong, as far as I'm concerned.
If it makes you feel better, GregX doesn't really know half of what he's talking about at times. I mean, he thinks Young Justice is better than Justice League.
I don't agree with him a lot of the time either, but it does feel like he didn't really give the show much of a chance and to be fair he also thought Dragon Ball was the same thing as Dragon Ball Z.
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 09, 2012, 11:04:31 PM
If it makes you feel better, GregX doesn't really know half of what he's talking about at times. I mean, he thinks Young Justice is better than Justice League.
Really? The last time I talked to him about YJ, he said that he hasn't been enjoying it that much.
He might have said that Young Justice had a better first season than Justice League did, which is true, IMO.
I also have to point out how much I love the ending of that 2-parter, where Doctor gives off one of the best set of lines in the series, IMO. The dub in particular does an excellent job with his speech (of sorts).
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 09, 2012, 11:04:31 PM
If it makes you feel better, GregX doesn't really know half of what he's talking about at times. I mean, he thinks Young Justice is better than Justice League.
To be fair he does admit that he's extremely biased towards anything that has Greg Weisman's involvement. Were the show not headed by him, I'm pretty sure that he'd really be able to pick apart all of its problem. And that's not saying that its a bad show by any means, but no way in hell is it better than Justice League.
I also don't like how he keeps bitching about Superman being unrelatable and a bad character. Dude, he's an alien with superpowers. He's not supposed to have a personality resembling anything human. It's just that bad writers keep trying to make him grounded and like Spider-Man or something.
That's half of why I don't really want him watching Doctor Who, because he'd probably just spew a ton of articles about how the Doctor is a Mary Sue.
Yeah, Superman is not supposed to be relate-able, that's why I think he's great. He has to live up to this icon of justice and its an extremely daunting task especially when Clark Kent is just a bumbling reporter. He's the anti-Batman and he's great for that.
But if he personally just can't connect with things like YYH there's very little anyone can do about that except him.
Honestly, episodes 73-77 may be the best consistently awesome string of episodes in the series. There is just so much awesomeness packed into each and every one of those episodes and I was really tempted to just post that whole string in one slot on my list, but I had to select self-contained segments within the grand scheme of things to keep my list reasonable.
Really, though, the Chapter Black arc is an amazing achievement among early shonen series. I would say that more shonen series should aspire to try and learn from what this arc does right. Instead we have modern shit like Beelzebub coming out these days and completely lacking any sense of anything that can actually be considered "competent" writing (let alone good), and somehow its shit like this that becomes a big hit among manga readers.
Seriously, when I finally get a mic and start participating in podcasts, we have to dedicate at least one segment in some episode to talking about how kick-ass this show is. Avaitor, Desensitized, and myself could hold awesome discussions on this show alone (the other segment could be devoted to Ed, Edd, n' Eddy ;) ).
The Swatiska ninja did survive. Genkai said that he was unconscious and that they should just fight around him in the finals.
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 09, 2012, 11:04:31 PM
If it makes you feel better, GregX doesn't really know half of what he's talking about at times. I mean, he thinks Young Justice is better than Justice League.
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Here's a single entry (once again because I'm too burned out to write any more than that, ATM):
3. The Death of Genkai (Episode #052)
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Alright, before you all blast me for this one, yeah, I know the fact that Genkai "comes back" at the end of the tournament may cheapen the impact of this episode for most people (it did for me at one point in time). But upon having re-watched the episode numerous times, it still hits that emotional cord with me as strong as ever, and that's the result of absolutely terrific execution and directing (you know, back when Noriyuki Abe was actually adapting good material in the first place). In that regard, much like how many still consider Spock's Death to be a classic and touching moment in Star Trek 2 despite his return in the next film, I find the episode about Genkai's death is still one of the highest points in the series, personally.
Its no secret by this point in the series that Genkai and Toguro were once partners in their youth, however they went their separate ways once Toguro chose to abandon his humanity for the power of a demon's body, which disgusted Genkai to no end given what Toguro had turned himself into, not on the outside, but within. Throughout the tournament you get the sense that Toguro has always held a deep grudge towards Genkai, if only because it feels like he wanted to prove that his life choice was right and she was wrong to have walked away from him (we do know by the end of the arc that there was much more to him than that, but up to this point its how the viewer would perceive him). Of course what the viewer knows, none of the other actual characters (save for Toguro's elder brother) know. This is where Yusuke comes in. The previous episode ended with him finding out from Kuwabara that Genkai had gone off into the forest for some bullshit reason that she gave him, which immediately got Yusuke darting for her location as he immediately realized what she really meant. As Yusuke is rushing to get to Genkai in this episode, she and Toguro, who are already in each other's presence, have a conversation about their past, with Toguro claiming that Genkai was a fool for turning down the power and eternal youth that the transformation into a demon's body could give her, saying that instead she had chosen to become a withered old hag. Genkai of course expresses equal disgust for Toguro in his current state, and gave her counterpoint as to why he was the fool. The conversation was more of just a way for each of them to say their last pieces to each other, though, as Toguro pointed out that they were just delaying the inevitable and was ready to finish things between them for good.
Now, its worth noting by this point that Genkai, knowing full well that her death was coming at the hands of Toguro, had passed down most of her power to her student, Yusuke, through a transfer by her own personal spirit orb. This means that she had less power than ever to fight back against Toguro with, but you really got to appreciate her effort for not backing down against him even knowing full well that anything she did was futile. She fires a blast at him using all of her spirit energy which Toguro easily pushes past and delivers to her a single punch which shatters her body and leaves her face-down on the ground lying in a pool of her own blood. Its unfortunate that this is the exact moment that Yusuke finally makes it to her, only to see her in a dying state. Without even paying notice to Toguro, he swiftly rushes to her side and holds her up, telling her to hold on. Its at this point that Genkai, extremely close to deaths door, reveals to Yusuke that she had a history with Toguro (which was was surprise to Yusuke since he knew nothing of this before this point in the story). She also revealed that she knew full well that she was being lured in by Toguro as a trap for over 3 months before the tournament, when representatives of the tournament committee had come to her requesting her presence at the Dark Tournament. At first she refused, saying that upon being part of Toguro's winning team half a century ago she had made the specific request not to be disturbed by the tournament committee ever again. The representative tells her its optional for her, but then also tells her that Toguro has had Yusuke invited as a guest entry into the tournament, and for him it was mandatory. This of course forced Genkai into the tournament knowing full well that her student wasn't ready for the harsh battles that lied ahead of him at that point in time.
Genkai desperately uses her last few moments of life to tell Yusuke the mistake that Toguro had made and pleaded with him not to become the same as him, pointing out that every big decision he made would affect the people he cared about and also telling him that he couldn't just be a kid anymore. And then she finally closes her eyes. Yusuke holds her dead body silently for a moment before Toguro cuts in on his grieving countering her last words and once again proclaiming her the fool, as he was
the one standing and she had just past through death's door. This of course enrages Yusuke, which looking back on it was probably intentional on Toguro's part, as part of the reason he killed Genkai was to bring out Yusuke's full potential, and saying what he did was a great way to provoke Yusuke into attacking him to test his power. Unfortunately Yusuke just didn't have the heart for a fight at that point, and rushed at Toguro with nothing but blind rage. The result was Toguro sending Yusuke flying through a row of trees with a single well-placed punch, leading to the iconic image of him lying battered and bruised against the trunk of a large tree, with a look of grief and some emptiness showing in his eyes.
This is by far one of the most emotional episodes in the entire series. It features terific dialogue, really captivating themes, and it really shows how multi-dimensional the characters in YYH are as it explores the conflicting philosophies of Genkai and Toguro as they remember their past together and what brought each of them to the very different points that they reached in life. It has a great scene with the hero, Yusuke, being completely defeated and you as the viewer wanting more than ever before to see Yusuke pick himself back up and deliver to Toguro exactly the kind of ass-kicking that he deserves, but the episode itself leaves off on a very sad yet somewhat touching note. Yeah, Genkai coming back to life at the end of the DT arc may cheapen its effect a little (though I forgive that because she actually had a good role to play in the Chapter Black arc), but for me nothing can ruin the impact that this episode had one me and always will have. It made me tear up a bit when I first saw it on Toonami as a kid, and even to this day it still gets me emotional whenever I watch it. Its easily one of my top 3 favorite episodes of YYH.
Well said. The Death of Genkai is definitely top 5 material for me. I don't think I could make a top 10 just because there's so much to look at, and a lot of my favorite parts of the series encompass a number of episodes. But I can easily imagine both Toguro's Wish and Sleep, Doctor, Sleep (glad to see that episode getting praise) making it... I do believe that my top 2 would be Death of a Spirit Detective and Attempting Revenge though. Don't think I'll ever forget those episodes.
I admit, its hard to rank episodes for a series like this, not just because it heavily relies on continuity and is not episodic, but also because there are just so many damn good episodes in this show to begin with. Part of why I've never actually attempted to come up with a single favorite episode before, let alone 10 of them (actually its technically more than 10 since I ranked 2 episodes together on 2 occasions within my list). Honestly, you should think of this more as my top 10 favorite moments, or rather segments, within this series.
On another note, since I never have actually said what my favorite episode in this series is (and keep in mind, I have always said that the Doctor episodes were among of my favorites, but I never actually claimed that they were my #1 favorite episodes), mainly because I never thought of it before now, I am curious as to whether anyone here could guess what my favorite episode is, knowing my particular tastes. I can tell you right now, its not a conventional top choice as its not some big fight or epic conclusion to a story arc. It is something that is all about character, though, so I wonder if anyone could call what my personal favorite YYH episode is before I actually post it.
You spelled entry entrey and you called Genkai 'he' at the end.
I typed this up at 1 in the morning when I was half-asleep. What's your point?
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on September 12, 2012, 10:37:04 AM
I typed this up at 1 in the morning when I was half-asleep. What's your point?
Typical gunswordfist nitpicking. :>
Just helping out with the typos, bro.
No excuses, boy.
At least he didn't make double or triple posts in a row that could've easily been edited to one post.
I only do that for websites that show up on google.
Quote from: gunswordfist on September 12, 2012, 11:15:42 AM
I only do that for websites that show up on google.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Animation+Revelation
You completely missed the joke. :imnothappy:
Quote from: gunswordfist on September 12, 2012, 11:22:00 AM
You completely missed the joke. :imnothappy:
No, I got it, but it doesn't work anymore. :happytime:
You just happened to make a bad joke.
You just happened to be born a bad joke.
Quote from: gunswordfist on September 12, 2012, 11:29:27 AM
You just happened to be born a bad joke.
wicked sick burn dood 8) 8) 8)
Quote from: gunswordfist on September 12, 2012, 11:29:27 AM
You just happened to be born a bad joke.
At least I have a punch line, unlike you.
So, does anyone besides Talon have any actual thoughts on the #3 entry that I just posted?
Guess its not a popular choice....
Anyways, I'll try to do another one tonight if I have the time.
I agree that Genkai getting revived cheapens her death but that closeup of her dead got to me the last time I watched it.
It's another classic, but idk what else to say, you nailed it in your entry.
Interesting insight on how Yusuke felt when he attacked Toguro. I was wondering why he didn't tap into his emotional power or however you'd put it but yeah, that was just pure rage.
Also, the last time I watched that episode, it was kind of obvious that Toguro was sad after he killed Genkai. At least that's what I thought.
Yeah, so I just remembered that I had started a top 10 list and still hadn't finished off the final 2 entries (for all 2 of you who even care....wishful thinking on my part to assume its even that much, I know :> ). So let's get them both out of the way, shall we:
2. Kurama's Anger, Gourmet's Guest (Episode #084)
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fv011o.popscreen.com%2FeHNlODd6MTI%3D_o_yu-yu-hakusho---084---kuramas-anger-gourmets-guest.jpg&hash=c6b115a323568bc07fad66d7f1dd8addddb77e72)
So, if you remember from my #10 entry, I noted how that episode foreshadowed to just how much more cruel Kurama could be when he's provoked badly enough, and this is the episode that comes to fruition. In the episode before this, Yusuke and company were in the middle of a competition with Game Master, a young child who's psychic ability was to basically make virtual reality sort of game experiences in a real world setting, with real world consequences for losing. In this case, the losers of this competition would forfeit their life, and of course his own rules applied to him as well. To make a long story short, Yusuke's team tied with Game Master's score, and it came down to a game between him and Kurama, which turned into a deadly mind game (literally). Since the fate of the world was kind of at stake, here, Kurama had be the bad guy for a change and be as cold-hearted as possible. This included messing with Game Master's psyche so he was distracted during the game. He did this by putting immense pressure on him as he constantly reminded the kid of his mortality and how he would die if he lost the game. And of course, he's just a little kid, not a well-trained adult who can withstand these kinds of mind games, so of course he chokes under the pressure and dies. Kurama doesn't say anything after that, but you can tell the immense about of guilt he's feeling for doing what he had to do, and how furious he is and Sensui and the rest of his remaining psychics for using a little kid and forcing him into that kind of situation where he had to make such dark decision.
Now, all of this was just in the last episode, so from the very beginning of this episode, Kurama is so enraged to the point of even making Yusuke weary of what he says around Kurama. Of course this is Kurama, so the scary thing is that he still remains dead calm, and when he's silent and angry that can't be good for the next person who stands in his way. It turns out that person is Gourmet....except its not, its actually Elder Toguro, who was supposed to have died in the Dark Tournament except....well, I'll just spare you the details since its kind of complicated and contrived, but it can be overlooked for how damn good the rest of this episode is.
I know that some of you may raise your eyebrows at my choice of putting this particular episode so high on my list, but before you do, I say go watch it again. Take notice to how Kurama's character is portrayed here. You actually learn just how layered his character is in this episode despite it not containing any exposition of his past or anything like that. Its just how he reacts to a troubling situation. In a generic shonen series, he'd probably just get really angry, yell a lot, defeat the next enemy, and return back to normal. But this is Kurama we're talking about. He keeps his calm, strategizes, and then basically uses his wits to trap Elder Toguro into a punishment worse than death. I won't spoil for you what exactly he does or how it happens, as the execution of that scene is pretty awesome, but suffice it to say that while Elder Toguro was known from the beginning to be the most perverse and sadistic villain of the entire series, Kurama ironically subjects him to one of the most twisted and torturous punishments possible. Its funny in how Elder Toguro took pride in the fact that he can't die, yet at the end Kurama uses that very gift and turns it into a curse. This also does a good job of cementing in why Kurama is my favorite character in the entire series. He can be the post pleasant and polite member of the main group. Yet he can also be the most cold-hearted of them and can even be downright scary depending on his mental state. Kurama is a demon that you just don't want to piss off, and if this episode doesn't tell you why, then nothing else will. I just love how polarizing his character is, and that's without even bringing up his alternate state of being as Yoko Kurama. This is easily his darkest moment in the series (and arguably the darkest moment of the series itself), and really highlights Togashi's writing talent and how unique his characters are compared to other shonen series.
1. Sensui's Fall (Episode #077)
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_lxp6zonHiY1qfhgct.png&hash=9d39af68753fff05e4359b6b1995d4197b14b432)
If you know me, it really shouldn't surprise you that this is my favorite episode. I was considering whether I should put an episode that had a bit more of everything the series had to offer, like its humor and the great characterization and chemistry among the main characters of the series, but really I just can't deny that this is the episode I re-watch the most, and its basically my favorite of the entire series. Why is that? Well, it exemplifies what Togashi excels at, and that's writing great villains. And YYH always stood out to me from the beginning for how well crafted its villains were. This episode itself was a real turning point of the Chapter Black arc, as well, as it cements in how psychologically disturbed Sensui is, and at the time when I was used to the typical villains who followed nothing more than DBZ logic of wanting to be the strongest or taking over planets or whatnot, this was really something special that I honestly hadn't seen before. I know it has been done before, but it holds a special place for me since it was the first time I saw in an animated show how there could be so much more to a villain. This kind of stuff was true in Batman: The Animated Series, Gargoyles, and other older cartoons, but I didn't discover that about either of those series until I watched them back just a few years ago, so YYH is the first time I really got exposed to this kind of thing.
Either way, Sensui was and still is an excellent villain, and this episode explains why he's such a fascinating character. The episode features Koenma coming down to Earth to finally spill the beans about Sensui's identity as Yusuke's predecessor as Spirit Detective, which was a detail that he had been hiding until that point until he was absolutely sure of who they were dealing with (they hadn't confirmed that Sensui was Black Angel until just now by this point in the series). The majority of the episode then features Koenma narrating Sensui's basic back-story, and you get to learn about how he was recruited for his rare spiritual gifts since he was just a boy. The problem, as Koenma points out, were just how strong his "righteous" beliefs were. He gladly accepted his duty as Spirit Detective and he was a damn talented agent, being very physically fit and highly skilled, not to mention far more sophisticated and intelligent than Yusuke ever was. The interesting thing here is that this came with a price. Sensui believed strongly in black and white principles. There was either good or evil, Clear right or clear wrong, with absolutely nothing in-between. In a way I can't help but feel that this was sort of Togashi's way of pointing out how shallow many shonen villains AND heroes were at the time, even if they were awesome and classic characters.
Once again, without spoiling anything, Sensui's beliefs and perception of good and evil became totally distorted during a certain incident where, as Koenma put it, he was exposed to "truckloads of gray," during a certain mission. Suddenly Sensui came to the realization that the humans he had sworn to protect could be just as dirty and underhanded as the demons he killed on a daily basis, if not more so. To any normal person they could sort out for themselves that there are good people in this world and there are bad people, and seeing some bad people doesn't mean that all people are bad, and vice versa. They would also have realized that in the world of YYH, not all demons have to be evil just because they are of a different species that were just labeled with that stereotypical connotation. But if you didn't get it by now, without having to flat-out tell you like some other anime would, Koenma is basically telling you that Sensui is and always was fucking crazy. His ideologies were flat-out unrealistic, the type a young kid who has yet to experience the world would have. His beliefs were the only thing that kept him mentally stable, and once those were shattered, he of course had a complete psychological breakdown, which lead to his eventual disappearance, but as Koenma points out, mysteriously the Chapter Black tape disappeared with him as well, leaving a constant worry that he would eventually return for the worse in the back of Koenma's mind (which of course bothers Koenma because Sensui and his consequent breakdown and turn to the dark side were all his responsibility as the one who recruited him).
Another great thing about this episode is that it tells you so much about Yusuke as well. Watch it again and think about it. Why would Koenma pick a punk like Yusuke to be the next Spirit Detective when it was clearly shown very early on in the series that there were plenty of other humans with spirit powers, many of who were more intelligent than Yusuke and even more skilled at the time who very well could have been likely candidates to fill in the role. The thing is, Yusuke has a heart and all that mushy shit, but he also doesn't think too much. This was never established as a reason for picking Yusuke in the beginning of the series, but this episode is so damn good that it manages to make sense of that anyways and it doesn't feel like a plot-hole or written out of nowhere at all. Yusuke himself was always sort of a morally gray character. Sure, he'd do what was right most of the time, and he was a bit weary of taking a human life himself as seen in the episode "Sleep, Doctor, Sleep," but it was also established that he'd kill if he had to, and that he realized from early on that their are slimy and sleezy humans and that not all demons were evil. He's the type of character who would also do what it takes to win even if it was not in the noblest of ways, though he would prefer the honorable way if he had a choice. The point is, Yusuke was a street punk before he became a Spirit Detective. He himself was seen as a delinquent by society and partook in fights and took pride in the fact that he wasn't a typical goody-goody like mostly everyone else his age was. In other words, he was a good guy with a MUCH more mentally stable state of mind than Sensui ever was, and thus was a better candidate. This episode is so damn good that it tells you so much about the hero in contrast to the villain without directly comparing either of them and just being a back-story for the villain.
Really, for anyone who says that YYH is nothing but DBZ-style fights and just another generic shonen, they just don't know what the hell they are talking about. I can fully admit that this show is far from the perfect masterpiece that I used to think it was, but I also know that its still a legitimately great show and that I don't just love it out of nostalgia. To me, its the quint-essential shonen anime to watch and no other episode exemplifies its brilliance more than this one for me.
It's interesting if you compare and contrast the two Toguro Bros. and where they ended up in the end. Younger Toguro dies and goes to purgatory where he awaits immense torture for his evil actions... but he has repented and he does have a chance to escape it. Elder Toguro by contrast will never know death, but will instead know eternal hell until the end of time with no hope for redemption. He called his brother down for being weak, but who really got the better deal in the end?
I liked Sensui's Fall because it showed that Sensui who was a simplistic black and white character as a young spirit detective had no idea of what true good and evil actually was. Sort of like a kid in a police academy who has no idea about corrupted cops. The only issues with Sensui was that he didn't actually learn from this experience that good and evil is not based on simple appearance but is a lot more complex in how the two operate. Instead he just figured that it meant that really the demons were good and humans were the bad guys because it was the easiest solution to deal with instead of the truth that good and evil are not always so obvious to the naked eye. It is interesting that such a complicated villain, who was a genius, was brought down by such shallowness in that his emotional (and spiritual) maturity was so underdeveloped compared to his knowledge.
In contrast, Yusuke knew a bad guy from a good guy from day one because of how he was brought up but was fully able to admit when he was on the wrong track. Sensui was probably always told he was right (because he was a genius) and at some point actually believed it, which is what lead to his downfall.
I agree with you, I really enjoyed both episodes.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on December 21, 2012, 11:08:09 PM
It's interesting if you compare and contrast the two Toguro Bros. and where they ended up in the end. Younger Toguro dies and goes to purgatory where he awaits immense torture for his evil actions... but he has repented and he does have a chance to escape it. Elder Toguro by contrast will never know death, but will instead know eternal hell until the end of time with no hope for redemption. He called his brother down for being weak, but who really got the better deal in the end?
That's a great point, and its also worth noting that in the end, Younger Toguro can come to terms with his fate because he "chose" it and accepted it. It was his choice to go into purgatory (Koenma wanted to go easy on him), just like before that it was his choice to abandon his humanity and become the type of demon that he became. It may have been Elder Toguro's own choice to become a demon as well, but he was so twisted and corrupt that he convinced himself that the power he had attained made him undisputedly great, taking pride in the fact that he had an immortal body. Yet in the end, when coming face to face with Kurama and meeting his fate, the very thing he took so much pride in turned out to be the worst possible thing that could happen to him, and he had no choice in the matter thanks to his overconfidence in how great he thought he was. Its a story of 2 brothers making the same bad choice, but one of them made a choice to redeem themselves, and he would suffer for thousands of years but his sentence had a definite limit to it, and when he was done his soul could rest in peace. The other brother reveled in his bad choice and would end up suffering for the rest of eternity for it.
QuoteI liked Sensui's Fall because it showed that Sensui who was a simplistic black and white character as a young spirit detective had no idea of what true good and evil actually was.
I never like to say that something is commentary as I myself am not usually into that sort of thing, but I really can't help but feel that this was actually Togashi's way of critisizing the generic shonen good guy morals. That isn't necessarily just for stuff at the time, but rather in general, as there have always been classic shonen and generic titles. There are a lot of them, however, where the heroes are far too idealistic and since its fantasy, everything usually falls within their ideology, but Togashi knows that such a thing is just not realistic or believable, even in a fantasy world. Thus Sensui, who was initially brought up as a genius hero made to believe that he was perfect and everything he stood for was right, ended up completely breaking down when he was finally forced to come to terms with just how complex the matter of good and evil really was. In a way I really do wish we got to see more of Sensui's story exposed in this arc, yet at the same time this single episode really does tell you more than enough about him, because in the end of the day he was a really shallow person before hsi breakdown. After that he took the easy way out and blamed humanity, and sought out his vengeance against his own entire race, yet I always feel that in the back of his mind he knew that this way of thinking was wrong as well, but it was simply "easier" to ignore that and follow this new ideology of his.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on December 21, 2012, 11:25:24 PM
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on December 21, 2012, 11:08:09 PM
It's interesting if you compare and contrast the two Toguro Bros. and where they ended up in the end. Younger Toguro dies and goes to purgatory where he awaits immense torture for his evil actions... but he has repented and he does have a chance to escape it. Elder Toguro by contrast will never know death, but will instead know eternal hell until the end of time with no hope for redemption. He called his brother down for being weak, but who really got the better deal in the end?
That's a great point, and its also worth noting that in the end, Younger Toguro can come to terms with his fate because he "chose" it and accepted it. It was his choice to go into purgatory (Koenma wanted to go easy on him), just like before that it was his choice to abandon his humanity and become the type of demon that he became. It may have been Elder Toguro's own choice to become a demon as well, but he was so twisted and corrupt that he convinced himself that the power he had attained made him undisputedly great, taking pride in the fact that he had an immortal body. Yet in the end, when coming face to face with Kurama and meeting his fate, the very thing he took so much pride in turned out to be the worst possible thing that could happen to him, and he had no choice in the matter thanks to his overconfidence in how great he thought he was. Its a story of 2 brothers making the same bad choice, but one of them made a choice to redeem themselves, and he would suffer for thousands of years but his sentence had a definite limit to it, and when he was done his soul could rest in piece. The other brother reveled in his bad choice and would end up suffering for the rest of eternity for it.
Younger Toguro was fully willing to admit his bad choices, sins, crimes, extreme pride and greed, and fully pay for them. He readily admitted his choices were what lead him to the evil existence he lead, and that it was his responsibility to pay for it. You do have to wonder if someone like Sensui would have understood any of Toguro's actions, because unlike him Toguro knew the difference between good and evil. The difference was that Toguro legitimately believed that evil was stronger and chose accordingly. But it wasn't until he realized that all his corrupted strength was crushed by a boy with pure resolve that he was able to understand that he was wrong the whole time and Genkai was right. In fact, Elder Toguro's fate is similar to what Younger Toguro would have suffered if he didn't die proving again that he had made the wrong choice when he acquired his body.
QuoteQuoteI liked Sensui's Fall because it showed that Sensui who was a simplistic black and white character as a young spirit detective had no idea of what true good and evil actually was.
I never like to say that something is commentary as I myself am not usually into that sort of thing, but I really can't help but feel that this was actually Togashi's way of critisizing the generic shonen good guy morals. That isn't necessarily just for stuff at the time, but rather in general, as there have always been classic shonen and generic titles. There are a lot of them, however, where the heroes are far too idealistic and since its fantasy, everything usually falls within their ideology, but Togashi knows that such a thing is just not realistic or believable, even in a fantasy world. Thus Sensui, who was initially brought up as a genius hero made to believe that he was perfect and everything he stood for was right, ended up completely breaking down when he was finally forced to come to terms with just how complex the matter of good and evil really was. In a way I really do wish we got to see more of Sensui's story exposed in this arc, yet at the same time this single episode really does tell you more than enough about him, because in the end of the day he was a really shallow person before hsi breakdown. After that he took the easy way out and blamed humanity, and sought out his vengeance against his own entire race, yet I always feel that in the back of his mind he knew that this way of thinking was wrong as well, but it was simply "easier" to ignore that and follow this new ideology of his.
Yep, even in stories and legends characters are fallible because they have to be. Stories are a reflection of our world, and our world has evil and good in all its many forms. A shonen hero mentality is not healthy in our world, so it only stands to reason that it wouldn't be in YYH's world. Of course in the manga, Togashi lost his mind in the Three Kings arc trying to infuse unrealistic amounts of grey into everything that the anime had to remove (everything involving killing Koenma got stupid with the brainwashing and whatnot), but before all that he had it down right. But, unlike the end of the manga, I think he made the point better in Chapter Black that understanding good and evil takes more than a (spirit) gun and a badge. It first comes with knowing yourself. Sensui obviously had no idea who he was, hence the personalities.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on December 21, 2012, 11:50:18 PM
Younger Toguro was fully willing to admit his bad choices, sins, crimes, extreme pride and greed, and fully pay for them. He readily admitted his choices were what lead him to the evil existence he lead, and that it was his responsibility to pay for it. You do have to wonder if someone like Sensui would have understood any of Toguro's actions, because unlike him Toguro knew the difference between good and evil. The difference was that Toguro legitimately believed that evil was stronger and chose accordingly. But it wasn't until he realized that all his corrupted strength was crushed by a boy with pure resolve that he was able to understand that he was wrong the whole time and Genkai was right. In fact, Elder Toguro's fate is similar to what Younger Toguro would have suffered if he didn't die proving again that he had made the wrong choice when he acquired his body.
You also really have to appreciate what Togashi did there. Essentially, he used 2 brothers who initially chose the same path but showed how the end results could differ so much for both, with one deciding to redeem himself with the right choice and the other continuing to follow his mistake. Its one of those really rewarding elements about the series as it doesn't necessarily hit you right away, but its really interesting to think about when you do come to realize it.
QuoteYep, even in stories and legends characters are fallible because they have to be. Stories are a reflection of our world, and our world has evil and good in all its many forms. A shonen hero mentality is not healthy in our world, so it only stands to reason that it wouldn't be in YYH's world.
And that's always one of the things that drew me into YYH's world, and to a certain extent the world of HXH as well. Togashi has always had a clear understanding that there is no such thing as a perfect being. I have always loved how his characters are not portrayed as right by following what they believe is idealistic. They are right by just trying to be the best they can possibly be as people. Yusuke's problem in the beginning of the series was wandering around aimlessly through life and having a lot of power (relative to his peers), but not really using it for anything other than to have some fun getting into fights. As the series progresses, he develops into a more mature character who does find ways to use his power against evil, but it doesn't just become a matter of his power solves everything. In just about every episode I put into this list, you can see that point demonstrated. In Sleep, Doctor, Sleep, he has the power to stop Doctor easily, but he is conflicted when it comes to his resolve, taking the time to question whether its right to kill Doctor or not since he's only been killing demons up to that point. He eventually decides for himself that the lives of the thousands of people that Doctor put in jeopardy outweigh the life of a single misguided human in the end, and that he can't just expect to get out of that situation, especially that one, without getting his hands dirty from time to time. Of course in this case he gets lucky and everything turns out alright, but he was clearly willing to take a life to save many others. This sort of thing actually came to fruition with Kurama in his confrontation with Game Master. It seems so evil to take a child's life, yet if he didn't get past Game Master then he and the rest of the group couldn't stop Sensui and his plan would go through and the entire world would basically be doomed. Sometimes in order to do the right thing you have to do things that are really hard and seem wrong, but unfortunately the real world doesn't give you easy choices very often, and what's right and wrong can seem really skewed at times.
Other shonen protagonists have this mentality that there is always a better way to win, accomplish a goal, or basically do the right thing without anyone getting hurt, and hey, it'd be awesome if things could work out like that, but its just flat-out not true, and I really respect that Togashi can see that. There is just no such thing as a perfecting being either, which is what Sensui thought he was, and thought humanity in general was, until his breakdown. The idea of an infalliable being who is the best at everything he does, knows what's best for everyone, and can find a way to create a perfect world is just something that flat-out doesn't exist no matter how strongly they or others believe it. I feel that this was one of the main points that Togashi got across with Meruem in the Chimera Ant arc of HXH, who was built up as the ultimate being but was still flawed and made mistakes in the end.
QuoteOf course in the manga, Togashi lost his mind in the Three Kings arc trying to infuse unrealistic amounts of grey into everything that the anime had to remove (everything involving killing Koenma got stupid with the brainwashing and whatnot), but before all that he had it down right.
As far as I'm concerned, the anime's version of that is canon and Togashi's version was just a badly done story-board that got fixed for the better. Fuck what Jacob T. Paschal said. The anime can be canon if its material makes sense and is generally better than the manga. That's the version I choose to go with, and it certainly ain't perfect by a long shot, but its a valiant effort from the anime crew, its entertaining to watch, and its a hell of a lot better than the pitiful excuse for an ending that Togashi gave us. To be fair, though, I really do believe that he wanted to end the series with the Chapter Black arc, and if that's true that I would agree with him, as to me that would've been the perfect ending to the series. Yusuke had already matured at that point, the other characters had come to terms with who they were and their place in world, and as far as I'm concerned you just flat-out can't top the Chapter Black arc from a quality stand-point, so it was pointless to continue the series past that point in the first place, IMO.
QuoteBut, unlike the end of the manga, I think he made the point better in Chapter Black that understanding good and evil takes more than a (spirit) gun and a badge. It first comes with knowing yourself. Sensui obviously had no idea who he was, hence the personalities.
That really reminds me that I still do wish that we could've gotten more on Sensui's backs-story. On the one hand its kind of good to leave it somewhat mysterious and the episode we got told us a lot without going overboard on exposition (something a lot of current shonen writers could learn a lot from), but at the same time Sensui is just such a damn interesting character and while he would have been more shallow in his youth, his background is still interesting as hell to follow. A part of me really wants to know more about the circumstances of his initial relationship with Koenma and how he was brought up as a Spirit Detective, and the period of time during his disappearance, which would be the development he went through after his breakdown and how he ended up becoming the awesome and more nuanced villain that we got in the Chapter Black arc. That's also a side of Sensui that I didn't talk a lot about in that write-up of Sensui's Fall, because it wasn't about that, but while he was a shallow character in his upbringing, he sure as hell wasn't shallow as a full-fledged villain in the CB arc, with a new heir of confidence and cockiness to him in his new-found "understanding" of the world, his place in it, and his personal goal for disposing of the human race.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on December 22, 2012, 12:26:37 AMAnd that's always one of the things that drew me into YYH's world, and to a certain extent the world of HXH as well. Togashi has always had a clear understanding that there is no such thing as a perfect being. I have always loved how his characters are not portrayed as right by following what they believe is idealistic. They are right by just trying to be the best they can possibly be as people. Yusuke's problem in the beginning of the series was wandering around aimlessly through life and having a lot of power (relative to his peers), but not really using it for anything other than to have some fun getting into fights. As the series progresses, he develops into a more mature character who does find ways to use his power against evil, but it doesn't just become a matter of his power solves everything. In just about every episode I put into this list, you can see that point demonstrated. In Sleep, Doctor, Sleep, he has the power to stop Doctor easily, but he is conflicted when it comes to his resolve, taking the time to question whether its right to kill Doctor or not since he's only been killing demons up to that point. He eventually decides for himself that the lives of the thousands of people that Doctor put in jeopardy outweigh the life of a single misguided human in the end, and that he can't just expect to get out of that situation, especially that one, without getting his hands dirty from time to time. Of course in this case he gets lucky and everything turns out alright, but he was clearly willing to take a life to save many others. This sort of thing actually came to fruition with Kurama in his confrontation with Game Master. It seems so evil to take a child's life, yet if he didn't get past Game Master then he and the rest of the group couldn't stop Sensui and his plan would go through and the entire world would basically be doomed. Sometimes in order to do the right thing you have to do things that are really hard and seem wrong, but unfortunately the real world doesn't give you easy choices very often, and what's right and wrong can seem really skewed at times.
Other shonen protagonists have this mentality that there is always a better way to win, accomplish a goal, or basically do the right thing without anyone getting hurt, and hey, it'd be awesome if things could work out like that, but its just flat-out not true, and I really respect that Togashi can see that. There is just no such thing as a perfecting being either, which is what Sensui thought he was, and thought humanity in general was, until his breakdown. The idea of an infalliable being who is the best at everything he does, knows what's best for everyone, and can find a way to create a perfect world is just something that flat-out doesn't exist no matter how strongly they or others believe it. I feel that this was one of the main points that Togashi got across with Meruem in the Chimera Ant arc of HXH, who was built up as the ultimate being but was still flawed and made mistakes in the end.
Yep, ain't none of us created perfect, but that doesn't mean we can't learn from our mistakes and grow. Yusuke made a lot of mistakes, but he grew and tried to better himself in more than just strength. The same with the other three, really. This is a big and confusing world we were given, and it's up to us to not get overwhelmed by it and lose ourselves to our vices. The world of YYH is the same, that we have limits (something Hiei refused to believe until later) and at a certain point growth comes from somewhere else other than strength which eventually fails and fades like youth. Growth comes from realizing how empty power and money really are in the long run, and that those who refuse to admit it end up like Tarukane and the council, Sakyo, the saint beasts, Rando, the Toguro Bros. and their henchmen, and Sensui (though most of his followers were saved before it was too late) and his right hand man. I especially liked that YYH didn't rely on the whole "maybe the good guys aren't really good guys" thing that most shonen tries to pull now- outside of some good guys that had shallow motives (like King Enma's special force) but despite dumb motives were not evil but misguided. The line between good and evil was never blurred, but instead explored, and I think that really worked to the story's favor.
That was actually why I really liked the last arc in the anime because they paid special attention to Hiei on this. At a certain point, Hiei was done. The vicious demon that spent his life trying to gain power for revenge and pure greed seemed pure evil, but after meeting Kurama who was more than he could understand, then Yusuke who was a human that was not much different from him, and finally Kuwabara who was everything Hiei hated in humans... until he realized he didn't actually hate him at all. Hiei was a cold-blooded killer for much of his life until he was forced to reign it in during Chapter Black and during the Three Kings arc finally understood that the power he was looking for meant nothing and he no longer felt anything from killing anymore- if he ever did. In fact, he had begun to hate it and what he became and began questioning why he was even doing what he was doing. This is why I don't mind that there was never a war in the story, because my favorite part of Hiei's growth would have been lost if he just went back to being a blind killer again.
In fact, this is one of the things that began to annoy me with One Piece. Straw hats arrive in new town, tyrant villain oppresses everyone, Straw hats become Jesus and the bad guys are defeated while the townsfolk are typically okay by the end. Not to say it wasn't well written at times, but there isn't much good or evil in that in more than a superficial level that doesn't explore much of anything. I really enjoy exploring the differences between pure good and evil, but there are reasons for both beyond only motivations. Not to say that characters like say, Goku, were deeper than Luffy, but Goku typically did good because the bad guys did evil to him first or he needed something. There were typically multiple motivations related to the narrative due to Goku's naivety but he did want to do the right thing on top of it and to be fair good vs. evil only really came into play during Red Ribbon and King Piccolo both of which had different motivations for doing what they did and for antagonizing Goku. Luffy typically did things because he wanted to and little else. From what I read anyway.
QuoteThat really reminds me that I still do wish that we could've gotten more on Sensui's backs-story. On the one hand its kind of good to leave it somewhat mysterious and the episode we got told us a lot without going overboard on exposition (something a lot of current shonen writers could learn a lot from), but at the same time Sensui is just such a damn interesting character and while he would have been more shallow in his youth, his background is still interesting as hell to follow. A part of me really wants to know more about the circumstances of his initial relationship with Koenma and how he was brought up as a Spirit Detective, and the period of time during his disappearance, which would be the development he went through after his breakdown and how he ended up becoming the awesome and more nuanced villain that we got in the Chapter Black arc. That's also a side of Sensui that I didn't talk a lot about in that write-up of Sensui's Fall, because it wasn't about that, but while he was a shallow character in his upbringing, he sure as hell wasn't shallow as a full-fledged villain in the CB arc, with a new heir of confidence and cockiness to him in his new-found "understanding" of the world, his place in it, and his personal goal for disposing of the human race.
Someone should make a Sensui OVA detailing some of his early cases leading to Chapter Black. O0
But yeah, I think he got the point off fine. Sensui was a genius who was given everything in life and thought he was above everyone else to judge what was right and wrong
despite not knowing what was right and wrong. This base emotion was how Sensui grew into the twisted mind he was by the end of Chapter Black. Him being taken away so he "wouldn't be judged" was further proof of that, he literally thought he was above other human beings and deserved to not be judged like everyone else is.
I will say that outside of Yomi/Kurama and Hiei, Three Kings doesn't really have many themes underneath it. I think it mostly serves as a wrap up to the story (an epilogue) for the characters in the anime and closing their character arcs. Yusuke and Kuwabara already reached the end by Chapter Black's end, in my opinion, but Hiei and Kurama (to an extent) needed a bit more to fill them out and the Three Kings did that job well in the anime. Yusuke even realized that after Chapter Black he no longer cared about fighting anymore and just wanted to be with the people he loved, something that Hiei could only learn in the Three Kings. Three Kings as a whole is mostly just closure and little else besides wrapping up loose ends, despite some interesting characters they aren't the focus, to the whole story. It probably would have gone off smoother if Togashi didn't get lazy.
But HxH I originally thought it was about the importance of family as Gon searched for his father in a cruel and crazy world and found out what family really was. That seemed to be enforced in York Shin when he tried to have Kurapika give up his quest for revenge and in the Chimera Ant arc with Meruem and the little girl and Gon and Killua getting a big brother with Knuckle. That seemed to be the theme, until Gon found his father. Now I have no idea what the theme is anymore and I don't think Togashi knows either.
As you all can tell, I really like stories! :D
Damn, that's a handful of a post right there! ;D
You made a lot of good discussion points in your post, though I can't address them all right now, so I'll respond to most of it tomorrow. That said, There were 3 points in your post I wanted to respond to.
In regard to Hiei I completely agree with you. To be honest I feel that Yusuke, Kuwabara, and Kurama had all fully completed their character arcs by that point. Kurama was great in the Three Kings arc as well, but his character honestly didn't develop any further from that point. He had already reached the end of his development. His purpose in that arc was really more to finally come to terms with the sins of his past, which is to say that while he accepted it and had moved on with his new life living as a if he were a human with his mother and new family, He still had a loose-end to tie with an old ally he had betrayed in the past. That didn't necessarily need to be written into the story, but it was still an interesting part of the Three Kings arc and was more about him resolving his relationship to Yomi, and it was really more about Yomi's growth and full development, even though he was only a character just introduced in that arc in the first place. As for Hiei, though, he was the only character who clearly had yet to have his character arc concluded. His episodes in the Three Kings arc were easily its best (and were in my top 10 favorite episodes from YYH). Its just so satisfying to see him make a complete 180 from the character he was in the beginning of the series in such a convincing way. Most shonen would have a bad character turn good like that and just be that way in an instant after being beaten by the hero. In YYH, though, Togashi took his time, and Hiei was still a violent and cold character even after he joined Yusuke's group, but he slowly and subtly calmed down and became a much more mature and more subdued character over time. The final arc also firmly established his relationship to Yukina and how a lot of his change had to do with the fact that he was ashamed of his former self when thinking about the sister he had to protect and care about. The reason he never revealed his identity to Yukina is because he did not want his sister to know that her long-lost brother was the pitiful demon Hiei eventually considered himself to be, though he did finally grow into a much stronger character by the end. As for Yukina, though, it was heavily implied that she could tell that Hiei was her brother, but never revealed that she knew that since she could sense that Hiei did not yet want to reveal that to her until he became a bettee person....or demon, I suppose.
As for your point on One Piece, yeah, that has bugged the hell out of me with the most recent arcs. Its basically come down to what you just described, and that ticks me off to no end. It does execute that type of arc rather well in some cases, and it does still have some entertaining arcs beyond Skypiea, but I agree, I got so fed-up with the series because of how stale that formula got. It tries to throw in corruption and other gray areas into the mix, but it all comes off as really shallow in the end. One Piece his hardly the worst offender of this, though. I believe you know a certain other manga which I initially had a casual enjoyment of as an entertaining martial arts series before getting extremely annoyed with its dull as fuck gary-sue main character and completely 1-dimensional villains. Now that manga just drives me up the fucking wall with how pitifully shallow and boring it has become. The author of that series is clearly not the least bit wise to the world, or if he is then he just doesn't care to write a decent story because that's the prime example of what I was talking about with how a shonen series can write around the ideologies of the good guys to make it so that everything fits their lopsided logic, even though that's utter bull-shit and doesn't send a good message to kids at all since nothing goes as perfect in the real world as it goes in that series.
As for your point about HXH, putting the fact that Gon has already found his father aside, its interesting to read your take on the HXH series and its central theme. To be honest, I never thought about it that way, but it does sort of make sense when looking at it from that angle. To be honest, though, I could never label HXH as having a central theme, but rather it had differing themes that changed by arc, and in some cases certain arcs had multiple themes being juggled. Here's how I generally always viewed it divided up by arc:
Spoiler
Hunter Exams- The central theme is to use your wits to survive the perils of the world. That's just a broad way to describe what this arc is all about. Many of these issues are brought up in certain events throughout the arc. Messages tend to be that things are not always what they seem, so be careful who you trust (and never trust strangers, which is the obvious child lesson here), where you go, and always consider your options. Always be weary of your surroundings, and don't just blindly jump into things. Pick your friends carefully, as you need to find people who you could trust your life with, and while that's risky its a necessity to work as a team to survive the challenges that life presents you, or in this case just the Hunter Exams. its essentially an arc with the theme of being smart about what you do.
Zoldyck Family- The central theme is basically family, upbringing, and choosing your own path in life. In this arc, Killua returns to his family because his brother convinces him that he's too dangerous to be around his friends, and that he doesn't need friends. His family has raised him to be a cold blooded assassin just like all of them are, yet Killua has clearly expressed that while he doesn't mind killing, he detests the idea of having his purpose in life chosen by his family. You have the basic plot in the forefront of Gon, Kurapika, and Leorio trying to get Killua back, but what this arc really comes down to in the end is Killua and his growth as a character. He realizes that he has his own interests in life, and while he has his duty to his family, they ultimately cannot choose his fate for him. His father realizes Killua's dilemma and encourages him to follow his own path in life and lets him go back with his friends with his blessing, and that concludes the first part of Killua's development.
Heavens Arena- The central theme is working hard to get good at something (i.e. training as far as this arc goes), and also not trying to be too hasty and jump ahead of yourself just so that you can get better at something faster, as that will lead to disasterous results (which is the mistake that Gon initially makes in this arc). Not much else to say other than that, as its a pretty basic kind of arc.
Yorknew City- The central theme here is choosing between friendship and your own personal goals, and what's more important. Yeah, I know that sounds REALLY generic on the outset, but Togashi is MASTERFUL in his execution of this arc, so its not like how any other shonen arc would do this. This is not Gon's story for this arc, as Kurapika becomes the main character of this one, so its his story. He is finally on the way to attaining vengeance against the Phantom Troupe and he has attained the power to do so through some very rough means. The interesting is that you can tell that he hates having to become a killer himself, but he feels so much hatred towards the Phantom Troupe that he feels like needs to do it. Luckily he has Melody on his team as bodyguards for the Nostrade family. She befriends him and helps calm his down and prevents him from making some very rash decisions that could have cost him his life during certain parts of the arc. Once he meets up again with Gon, Killua, and Leorio, he has a choice to ignore them or let them get involved, which at first he is against until he realizes how committed his friends are to helping him. Its at this point he realizes that he has it very good to have friends that he can trust and rely on to have his back, and that brings back a lighter side of him. He is still committed to go through with his vengeance, but once Gon and Killua get captured by the Spiders, he has a choice to kill the leader and sink in his revenge at the cost of Gon and Killua's lives, or to put a hold on his revenge-quest for the sake of his friends. He chooses his friends in the end, and while he still wishes to hunt down the rest of the Spiders, he is completely content with the decision that he made, as he realized what was more important to him in the end.
Greed Island- The central theme of this arc is really nothing more than recycled elements from both the Hunter Exams and Heavens Arena arcs, except done with much weaker execution here. Yeah, as you can tell, I'm not really a fan of this arc, but that's basically the gist of its theme, which had already been done before in this series, and better.
Chimera Ant- This arc was so grand in scale that it of course had multiple themes going on, which I end up dividing by individual characters:
-Gon's theme was consequences for your actions and decisions. He made a bad decision to accompany Kaito into the dangerous areas of the forest where the chimera ants were, despite his better judgement. This of course ended up in enemies way too strong for him and Killua to handle and Kaito having to protect them, which ultimately cost Kaito his life. This brought about so much guilt to Gon yet as the naive kid he was he believed there was still a solution until he realizes the cold and bitter truth in that Kaito could not be restored the way he was and it was Gon's fault for persisting to accompany him. His theme was coming to terms with his faults and realizing that he has to be extremely careful of the decisions that he makes in the future, as they will all bear heavy consequences on the people that he loves.
-Killua's theme was coming to terms with your current limitations and trying to better yourself. He wanted to protect Gon as best he could and up until that point he was just about strong enough to do so, but when they came face to face with enemies that were way stronger than either of them could hope to be, Killua realized that he had to be smarter and more careful about his actions. He had to become stronger, of course, but he had to break past his limitations in other ways and be smarter as well, and had to realize that there would always be people better and stronger than him and that he also can't be a big protective older-brother sort of figure to Gon all the time. He also had to come to terms with letting Gon grow on his own, that is, and also had to learn to place trust in others, in this case Knuckle who decided to help Gon and Killua become stronger.
-The Royal Guards' theme was the cost of blind loyalty and devotion to their leader. They just supported Meruem no matter what because that's all they were created to do, and they did only what they thought was best for him. This developed in a bad way in Pufu's case into something that was not in the King's best interests, yet he still followed through with it because he believed it to be right. He cared about nothing but his King's well-being, but sometimes you might not know what's best for someone and your blind devotion to them could end up playing to negative effect in the end, whether you realize it or not.
-Meruem's theme was, as I expressed earlier, realizing that you cannot be perfect, and to another extent it was also a mixture of the themes of leadership and growing up/coming of age. In regards to the former theme, Meruem thought he was above everyone else in everything. He was born as the ultimate being. Yet the first step in realizing that this was not true was when he met Komugi, who was better than him at the fictional game of Gungi. No matter how hard he tried he could never beat her, even though he had mastered every other game known to man and had beat every world expert at it. This opened his eyes to the fact that he could never be the best at everything, and even stuff that he was great at didn't make him the best as their would always be someone else who could surpass him at that. It made him realize that he was not a perfect being at all. In regards to the latter theme, he started out with the mentality of an immature child. He did everything on a whim or an impulse, abused his authority to get whatever he wanted whenever he wanted it, and just flat-out had no concept of how the world really worked. As time went on, and after coming to that realization with Komugi, his mentality started to develop and he became a bit more mature but was still very naive. He had decided that he would indeed become a ruler and would make a perfect world, but his "selection" process of eliminating every weak human and harvesting only the strong and fit ones was unrealistic and completely misguided. He then further developed and wanted a world of complete equality, but this was also extremely unrealistic and something only a naive youth would think is possible. Finally, after coming to terms with his mortality as he was slowly dying from the poison from Netro, he realized that big things like being a ruler and creating such a perfect society didn't matter to him at all. All he cared about were the people close to him throughout his short life-span, and what he enjoyed doing the most. He payed his respects to his loyal guards as all 3 of them were dead before he was, and returned to Komugi to play a final game as that was what he enjoyed doing the most. He ended up dying at her side. I have to say, despite my problems with this character and this arc in general, I really loved that ending. No big epic battle past the fight with Netero. Even after realizing he was poisoned and dying, Meruem could have decided to be a brat, kill everyone else (since he was still healthy enough to do so at the time), and take everyone along with him. But he didn't. He had matured by that point and it no longer mattered to him. He said it was their victory and left to be with the person who was most important to him. I know you didn't care much for this arc yourself, Desensitized, but I think that even you agreed that this was a good ending to the arc (at least at the time).
I can't really say much about HXH after that because its still in the middle of an arc, and I have no idea what its current theme is, myself.
Yeah, I'll just talk about HxH here and I'll head out myself. I like the discussion but it's late! So I'll just explain how I came to the theme in my reading.
I always thought that was the theme of HxH ever since the very beginning when his aunt outright said that Gon's father was a selfish man not worth looking for and that she wished he would stay home with her. But Gon felt he had to leave because he had to find his father. He needed to understand why he left him alone. As he went out into the crazy world he kept it inside that no matter what he needed to find his father. He met Killua (who had no real family despite having a large one) and the two bonded almost instantly. Leorio became something like an uncle to the group as he opened up more as the story went on and through the Hunter Exam arc they needed each other to survive and eventually it changed into more than that. Kurapika wanted revenge on the Ryodan for killing his own family but in the process did not understand that he already found a new one as Gon tried to constantly remind him throughout his hunt.
Heck, even the Ryodan found a bond with each other, even if its warped, in a world where they felt outcast.
Need I remind you of the start of the Chimera Ant arc when Gon lost someone close to him? It took the irresponsible and goofy Knuckle to knock sense into Gon and Killua who wanted blood and little more, and in the process grew up himself to the point where he basically kept everyone alive by arc's end which is not something that would have happened around his first appearance where he barely cared about anyone else. Meruem was pretty obvious as the little girl basically single-handedly changed his whole world-view by seeing something more in him than power and evil. Not to mention many of the other ants that realized they were more than the monsters they thought they were, they were more than beasts.
I didn't really mention Greed Island, because that was mostly plot oriented. IMO, there wasn't much there at all beneath the surface.
The voting arc simply seemed to be about Pariston wanting to prove that good would triumph over evil, and he was thankful that it did.
Anyway, that's basically what I got out of the arcs. It's probably not 100% accurate, but just what grabbed me.
I knew your favorite was Sensui's Fall once you described what your favorite episode was or wasn't like. I was pleasantly surprised by said episode when I rewatched it (uncut this time. Probably the most important episode to be like that) this summer while actually paying attention to Chapter Black this time around.
I still need to finish my uncut run of this arc. Hopefully my brother who's visiting today brings his computer with the episodes I was watching. He's the one who got me into the show (and Lupin) I'm right past Sensui's Fall so I'll pay extra attention to everything surrounding the upcoming Kurama episode.
Hmm, once I think about it, Kurama didn't really need to develop through the events of the story to become a better/happier person. What I mean is, if Koenma didn't make him work under him, he would have just gone on and be happy with his mother. The only thing that could have gotten in the way of that, character wise, is if he still wanted to be Yoko. I kind of think that was just added into the DT arc to make him more interesting. He seemed to be done with trying to transform back by the time Yusuke met him.
My guess on your favorite was correct. I was ready to congratulate myself for doing so, but then saw that I never actually wrote it in any posts in this thread... :burn:
Anyway, excellent picks! I especially like your #1 choice. Not sure what I'd do in a top 10, but Sensui's Fall would most likely be in there. I was gonna say stuff, but I think the two of you covered everything, and better than I would've. I guess I could add, though, that I really loved the atmosphere of the scene where Koenma tells the story of when Sensui's past. And it's greatly helped by the little things, such as the minimalistic animation of the scene showing humans torturing the demons. That, couple'd with the new grim music that was introduced in Chapter Black, just helped to set the mood so perfectly.
Also, I'm glad you mentioned that the anime version of events can be considered canon, E-K. I see the anime version of YYH to be entirely canon myself. I mean, what is there to stop me? It's a completely fleshed out version of the manga with changes entirely for the better, and it seems to be the more recognized version of the series anyway. :D
I also agree about not seeing the series as being completely perfect like I used to (for example, I used to try to defend the Demon Tournament and argued how it's better than given credit for, but came to accept that it deserves to go die in a river). But despite that, I think it'll always be my favorite shonen.
Kurama's Anger, Gourmet's Guest is also a great choice. And I agree with you guys, with what you said about the fates of the Toguro brothers. I'd like to add that I have always considered Elder Toguro to be more evil than his younger brother. I believed it ever since he fought those three demons in the Dark Tournament, where he said his brother would spare one of them, but he himself would not. But I think that the conclusion of their arcs made me believe that even more.
Quote from: gunswordfist on December 22, 2012, 09:52:01 AM
Hmm, once I think about it, Kurama didn't really need to develop through the events of the story to become a better/happier person. What I mean is, if Koenma didn't make him work under him, he would have just gone on and be happy with his mother. The only thing that could have gotten in the way of that, character wise, is if he still wanted to be Yoko. I kind of think that was just added into the DT arc to make him more interesting. He seemed to be done with trying to transform back by the time Yusuke met him.
Kurama was much more selfish at that point until Yusuke saved his life by sacrificing his life to save him from the mirror. It was after he paid him back that he started understanding more about what being a human was.
If Koenma didn't send Yusuke after Kurama, Kurama would have died, too.
Yeah, you have to keep in mind that Kurama was going to give up his life to save the life of his dying mother until Yusuke intervened. So saying that his involvement with Yusuke was pointless to his character is pretty incorrect considering that he would've been dead had he not met up with Yusuke, whether he had reached the pinnacle of his development as a character or not.
I also feel that he still did grow as a character even after joining the team. It was established since his first encounter with Yusuke that he had a history as a criminal in the demon world. In the Dark Tournament arc he had to confront his history as Yoko and call on that former power of his to help him fight against more powerful enemies. In Chapter Black he had to allow himself to become cold-hearted once again in order to do what needed to be done. In Three Kings he realized that being a demon meant that he was putting the life of his mother and those he loved in jeopardy, since he had many old enemies who would jump at the opportunity to exploit any weak point that he had, and this was the case with Yomi who essentially held his mother, step-father, and step-brother "hostage" by having them watched by his minions who could kill them at any time at Yomi's command if Kurama did not cooperate. This forced him to finally reconcile with an old ally of his whom he betrayed, and also gave him a better perspective of his responsibility to protect his mother.
Its true that Kurama was the most well-matured and developed of the characters form the get-go, but he still had his developments in characterization as the series progressed.
I never said Koenma not meeting Yusuke wouldn't have changed anything. Yes, I know he would have died, I was referring more to the time Koenma made him spend on the team but yeah, Yusuke showing what a great humans can have did effect him.
Quote from: gunswordfist on December 27, 2012, 10:13:36 AM
I never said Koenma not meeting Yusuke wouldn't have changed anything. Yes, I know he would have died, I was referring more to the time Koenma made him spend on the team but yeah, Yusuke showing what a great humans can have did effect him.
Koenma? I thought we were talking about Kurama.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on December 27, 2012, 12:12:27 PM
Quote from: gunswordfist on December 27, 2012, 10:13:36 AM
I never said Koenma not meeting Yusuke wouldn't have changed anything. Yes, I know he would have died, I was referring more to the time Koenma made him spend on the team but yeah, Yusuke showing what a great humans can have did effect him.
Koenma? I thought we were talking about Kurama.
I meant Kurama the first time
Was it ever explained how Toguro knew Genkai was Yusuke's teacher? When Toguro fought Yusuke and Kuwabara in Tarukane's house, he didn't really know who they were but just saw potential in Yusuke. Followed by that, he invites Yusuke to the Dark Tournament and invites Genkai as well. How did he know she was Yusuke's teacher?
He probably recognized by the way he fought, but I doubt he would have mentioned it during their fight because it wasn't pertinent and Tarukane couldn't know he was scamming him.
So, I re-watched a handful of random episodes of this series recently, in no particular order. My goal was to see if it still holds up for me....and quite frankly, it still does hold up for me just as much as it ever did. I don't know what it is, but while I can admit that on an objective level its not "the best series ever!" like I used to think it was, there's something about it that I just love to death, and it really never gets old for me.
I know that there are a ton of "better" anime out there, like Neon Genesis Evangelion, Cowboy Bebop, Wolf's Rain, Legend of the Galactic Heroes, as well as better animated series in general, like Gargoyles, Batman: TAS, The Spectacular Spider-Man etc., yet this is still my personal favorite anime. Is that wrong of me? Clearly I let my own bias get in the way of my judgement, but the fact is that this series never fails to entertain me (minus a few crappy episodes, and I really only mean a few), and while it doesn't have the level of complexity of some of those other series I listed as well as many others, I still think that it is by far the most entertaining and well-paced shonen series that I have ever seen, and at the end of the day, an anime that pretty much takes everything that's actually good about shonen series and rolls it into one is my personal favorite animated series, even to this day.
I don't know, maybe its strange that I still consider this series to be my favorite animated series ever, and I'd be lying if I said that there wasn't at least a little bit of nostalgia factored in there, but I honestly do feel that this series holds up remarkably well, and has a level of depth and complexity to it that is far beyond what a standard shonen would offer, and that its overall execution results in something far more entertaining and interesting than any other shonen that I've seen, even among all of the classics.
Oh, and BTW, I watched the episodes subbed, so I'm not just a fan of the series for the dub (which I still love, as flawed as it is).
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 06, 2013, 11:42:53 PM
I know that there are a ton of "better" anime out there, like Neon Genesis Evangelion, Cowboy Bebop, Wolf's Rain, Legend of the Galactic Heroes, as well as better animated series in general, like Gargoyles, Batman: TAS, The Spectacular Spider-Man etc., yet this is still my personal favorite anime. Is that wrong of me?
Of course not! "Objective taste" is bullshit anyway (although some things are definitely good and others are definitely bad), so if you think YYH is the best anime ever, there's no problem with that. ;)
The dub gives some good color to the dialogue so I don't really mind it.
I can see why some could rank it so high (obviously) since it does a lot of things good which is why it resonated so well in the first place. But the added character dynamics that help influence the plot are quite different than most anime from the time which were more driven by plot than character interaction that influences the plot.
Quote from: Foggle on March 06, 2013, 11:53:08 PM
Of course not! "Objective taste" is bullshit anyway (although some things are definitely good and others are definitely bad), so if you think YYH is the best anime ever, there's no problem with that. ;)
Yeah, I agree that shows being "objectively" better than others is a very narrow-minded way of thinking, but the Internet has a way of having people get touchy over that stuff, so I just always feel the need to stress that I don't give a shit about what peole find to be "objective," since I basically like what I like. ;)
That said, it really is my favorite show. I really do feel that, at least among shonen writers, Togashi is the king when it comes to characterizations, ESPECIALLY when it comes to his villains (and I can't stress that point enough).
As Desensitized mentioned, his characters move the plot along, rather than it being the other way around.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 07, 2013, 12:05:34 AM
That said, it really is my favorite show. I really do feel that, at least among shonen writers, Togashi is the king when it comes to characterizations
Yeah, this is basically exactly how I feel about Excel Saga, as far as manga goes. And I finally went more into detail why on our blog. ;)
Quote from: Foggle on March 07, 2013, 12:08:16 AM
Yeah, this is basically exactly how I feel about Excel Saga, as far as manga goes. And I finally went more into detail why on our blog. ;)
Oh yeah, I read the whole article (great read, BTW ;) ), but didn't get the chance to comment on it, earlier. I'll post up my thoughts on it, later, though. I really do want to get into Excel Saga. As soon as I finish my college semester, I'll probably subscribe to that Viz online manga service just long enough to read through all of the Excel Saga volumes. ;)
Yes, I also enjoyed the article.
I do enjoy stories that are character driven, but I think YYH is one of the best at how every character plays a part somehow yet it keeps a quick enough pace.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on March 05, 2013, 01:16:24 PM
Was it ever explained how Toguro knew Genkai was Yusuke's teacher? When Toguro fought Yusuke and Kuwabara in Tarukane's house, he didn't really know who they were but just saw potential in Yusuke. Followed by that, he invites Yusuke to the Dark Tournament and invites Genkai as well. How did he know she was Yusuke's teacher?
Please tell me you're joking.
Quote from: gunswordfist on March 07, 2013, 10:00:55 AM
Quote from: talonmalon333 on March 05, 2013, 01:16:24 PM
Was it ever explained how Toguro knew Genkai was Yusuke's teacher? When Toguro fought Yusuke and Kuwabara in Tarukane's house, he didn't really know who they were but just saw potential in Yusuke. Followed by that, he invites Yusuke to the Dark Tournament and invites Genkai as well. How did he know she was Yusuke's teacher?
Please tell me you're joking.
I like how Spark gave the intelligent answer, and you try to look like some tough guy while looking retarded in the process. Typical.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on March 08, 2013, 11:49:42 AM
Quote from: gunswordfist on March 07, 2013, 10:00:55 AM
Quote from: talonmalon333 on March 05, 2013, 01:16:24 PM
Was it ever explained how Toguro knew Genkai was Yusuke's teacher? When Toguro fought Yusuke and Kuwabara in Tarukane's house, he didn't really know who they were but just saw potential in Yusuke. Followed by that, he invites Yusuke to the Dark Tournament and invites Genkai as well. How did he know she was Yusuke's teacher?
Please tell me you're joking.
I like how Spark gave the intelligent answer, and you try to look like some tough guy while looking retarded in the process. Typical.
Tough guy? Just shut up and hand over the lunch money.
Quote from: gunswordfist on March 14, 2013, 12:16:02 PM
Quote from: talonmalon333 on March 08, 2013, 11:49:42 AM
Quote from: gunswordfist on March 07, 2013, 10:00:55 AM
Quote from: talonmalon333 on March 05, 2013, 01:16:24 PM
Was it ever explained how Toguro knew Genkai was Yusuke's teacher? When Toguro fought Yusuke and Kuwabara in Tarukane's house, he didn't really know who they were but just saw potential in Yusuke. Followed by that, he invites Yusuke to the Dark Tournament and invites Genkai as well. How did he know she was Yusuke's teacher?
Please tell me you're joking.
I like how Spark gave the intelligent answer, and you try to look like some tough guy while looking retarded in the process. Typical.
Tough guy? Just shut up and hand over the lunch money.
I made that post nearly a week ago. Learn to respond quicker.
Did I talk about Hiei's 180 yet? Except for eating children's souls, the lowest thing one of Yusuke enemies has ever done is attack Keiko. In fact, Hiei is the only one to actually do that. Then Yusuke acts like nothing happened when he sees Hiei again and slashing Keiko is badly violates his own code of honor. I know Togashi just wanted to make him a likable (by the fans) teammate after that so I'm not questioning anything, I just wanted to point out the biggest WHAT THE FUCK?! I have with the series.
Yeah, it was more of a popularity thing than anything else. The thing is, most shonen are run on a weekly basis, and the authors who write them don't necessarily ever have solid plans for what they want to do with their series. So, instead, they try to keep their series from getting canceled (its a rough competition with dozens of other authors to find a place for your series and keep it running in the magazine), and usually end up doing many things in a rushed manner in order to get their stories out on time. In this case, Togashi clearly never intended to use Hiei past that first arc when he first conceived the character, but unexpectedly both he and Kurama got pretty popular from their initial appearances for whatever reason, so the natural response was to bring them back as quickly as possible and add them to the main cast of the story. In this case, Togashi pretty much half-assed some reason to have Hiei and Kurama working with Yusuke and Kuwabara, and didn't really have time to think through how to deal with the character interactions, and how Yusuke should have been bitter with Hiei when they initially teamed up together.
That said, Togashi WAS still a pretty inexperienced writer at the time, so it was a rookie thing to overlook. Needless to say, his writing got much better as the series went along (until he just got downright lazy and just shitted out the final arc).
I just assumed Hiei was always going to be on the team. I knew that.
Wasn't Kurama already intended to become a part of the main team? I actually thought he fit in fine enough with working with Yusuke in Maze Castle.
This might be my slightly fuzzy memory of the exact events in the series. But now that I'm thinking about Hiei, I'm actually not sure that the way they fit him into the Maze Castle story arc is too farfetched. I mean you can bring up his honor code, but that's not really established that much, is it? I think what's more important is that Hiei will always do whatever is necessary to accomplish his goal (especially with the later inclusion of his backstory on finding Yukina, and if you speculate that he wanted to carve out an army to assist in that goal), and Yusuke was a direct threat in his goal. Sure, Hiei's tactics would never be as terrible as something Kurama would do as a last resort, but I wouldn't put it past Hiei's character to do what he did to Keiko. To him, killing a human isn't so different from killing a demon.
Course, you could also bring up his smug and mouthy mouthy attitude in the first story arc, in how they completely mellowed him out in his Maze Castle appearance. But that makes sense considering his arrogance was his big downfall when he fought Yusuke. Once Yusuke brought him down a level, of course he'd be more humble, and have a good deal of respect toward Yusuke.
... Or maybe I'm off the mark and need to rewatch it. But for now this is how I remember it, and I remember Hiei fitting in decently in terms of story justification and character. :P
Seeing Seiryu heartlessly killing his own ally also had a part in his change of character, Kurama even notes as much.
Quote from: Rynnec on March 15, 2013, 01:47:49 PM
Seeing Seiryu heartlessly killing his own ally also had a part in his change of character, Kurama even notes as much.
I don't think it changed him, it was just the first instance Hiei's code of honor was revealed.
Hiei's actual reason for helping out Yusuke in the Saint Beasts arc made sense, in that both he and Kurama basically either had the choice of working for Koenma to redeem themselves for their crimes, or face other-worldly punishment. Obviously they'd pick the option that allowed them to actually do shit, even though in Hiei's case its not like he really wanted to help out Yusuke at that time.
The thing that didn't make sense was how Yusuke was so easily trusting of Hiei, when they had been clear enemies in their last encounter, and Hiei even went as far as to kidnap Keiko and attempt to turn her into a demon. It just never made sense that Yusuke would completely forget about something like that. With Kurama, it at least made sense that he got along with the team right away since he was already established to be a good guy in the first arc he appeared in, when he helped out Yusuke.
At any rate, both Hiei and Kurama became awesome characters in their own right as the series progressed, but I do still feel that their inclusion was a bit shoe-horned in during the Saint Beasts arc, and while it still makes sense from a story standpoint, I do think that there should have been a bit more hostility between Hiei and the rest of the group (aside from Kurama who had a better understanding of him), and some time should have been spent on them having trust issues with one another, rather than Hiei pretty much feeling like a regular team member within just a single arc.
Hiei was also being controlled by the eye for much of his early appearance until Yusuke beat him. It puts a lot of the early stuff in context.
It was the first time he lost and his opponent didn't kill him and taking a hostage to get to him was pretty low. From what I could muster Hiei seemed to think he owed Yusuke for trying to kill his girlfriend on top of being spared which might have lead to why he was so upset when Seiryu killed his ally. It was really everything he wasn't.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 15, 2013, 06:02:53 PM
Hiei was also being controlled by the eye for much of his early appearance until Yusuke beat him. It puts a lot of the early stuff in context.
When was that stated?
When we learned about the eye and how it can take control of the user if they aren't sufficiently prepared. Though I think the hint came when we learned the eye drained a ton of his power on top of it. It's a bit of a conceit, but it makes sense so I just go with it.
Well, I do still feel that Hiei was a bit too much of a 1-dimensional villain during his first appearance, which really contrasts his character in the rest of the series. Even when they tried to explain him turning evil with the whole Jagan Eye, he still seemed like a more 3-Dimensional character in the flash-back after he got the eye implanted than when we first saw him in the series.
That said, I will agree that the whole moment with Seiryuu killing his ally was a great way to get Hiei to show what separated him from the other villains out there, and how he still had his own code of honor.
At any rate, while I do have a gripe about Hiei's initial appearance, its hardly a big problem for me, and its especially easy to overlook when you take into context just how many great and memorable moments we got out of Hiei as a character throughout the series. One of my favorite moments was when he was fighting Sensui after he "killed" Yusuke, and Kurama commented on how this was the first time that he had seen Hiei fighting for someone other than himself, as Yusuke's supposed death had clearly affected him as well.
Anyways, one thing that I wanted to comment on is how I've heard criticisms on the main 4 characters of this series, in that some people claim that they are just generic shonen stereotypes that only fulfill archetypal roles for the genre. While they are definitely archetypes of common shonen characters (which is done intentionally), they are hardly what I would call generic. There is SO much more to how these characters are actually executed that, IMO, puts a damn big portion of most other shonen series in this vein to shame.
Yusuke is the "punk teenager who loves to get into fights," but the guy also thinks about where he's going in life, and towards the end of the series he does factor his future in the real world and his relationship with Keiko as being more important to him than getting into fights. That's why he returns at the end of the series and its heavily implied that he just lives a normal life from thereon out.
Kuwabara is accused of being the "hot-headed brute with a heart of gold," and he is definitely written that way at the beginning of the series, but he breaks himself out of that role by also choosing real-life over fighting demons in the end. He breaks out of his stereotype by becoming far more studious, and he doesn't even follow the rest of the group into Demon World in the last arc, because its no longer his concern, and it makes no sense for him to go into that ordeal without a real reason. He also proves to be the real moral support of the main team, and he brings a lot of heart to this series that most other "stereotypical" shonen characters in this role can't even come close to, IMO.
Hiei is the "silent bad-ass with a tragic past," who distances himself from the group but also has a strong sense of trust with them. Once again, this is true since he's written to fit into that archetype, but he proves to be far more well-balanced of a character than most in that role, as he shows that he has quite a good understanding of others' emotions and can even sympathize with what they are going through. This is especially true in the final arc in which he develops a strong devotion to supporting Mukuro.
Finally, Kurama is labeled as just "the smart guy." There is SO much more to his character than this. He is smart, and easily the most strategic of the group. He's also the most conflicted and unstable one, and can also be the most cold-hearted one, doing even deeds that are ruthless enough to make Hiei shudder. And this isn't just being dark for the sake of being edgy. His character makes complete sense in how he functions on an emotional level, and IMO he is really the most interesting character in the series. That, and unlike most of the other shonen hacks that fit into this character archetype, Kurama's intelligence is far better conceived and much more believable. You clearly get to see how the thinks ahead of the game, and how he reacts and adapts to situations that are not in his favor, while still being at a disadvantage. On the other hand, 99% of the other "smart guys" out there are just cheap deus ex machina characters who automatically have the solution to any problem as soon as it arises, which is a cheap way for untalented writers to make a character seem intelligent. Kurama doesn't always have a solution to any given problem, but what makes him interesting is how he tries to work through it, and its not like he always succeeds, but you come to like the character enough to really want him to succeed. That's the other thing, actually. He's not an arrogant prick like most other "smart" characters in shonen, either. Out of all of the character accusations that I have heard, this one pisses me off the most, and clearly shows that some people either haven't watched much of this series, or clearly just don't understand this character at all.
Cliches are cliches for a reason. The difference with YYH is that he uses them as a starting point to go forward with instead of sticking with them the whole time.
For one, Yusuke becomes less fight-happy the further the series goes where by the end he's done and finished. Kuwabara starts out wanting to beat Yusuke but learns there's more to life than fighting and removes himself from the fray. Hiei is very chatty and even steps out of Chapter Black (after going out of his way to help Yusuke, by the way) only to return and do the right thing when he's truly needed. Kurama is a strategist who pays attention to his surroundings, which eventually leads him to understand other people and merely wanting to set peace with those he wronged in his past. It's why I enjoy the series so much.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 15, 2013, 09:07:11 PM
When we learned about the eye and how it can take control of the user if they aren't sufficiently prepared. Though I think the hint came when we learned the eye drained a ton of his power on top of it. It's a bit of a conceit, but it makes sense so I just go with it.
I still don't remember this. Do you remember any quotes? :P
As for the discussion you guys had earlier, that Yusuke was too trusting of Hiei right away... all I can really think of is that Yusuke has these weird relationships with foes and people he works with. He knows that Hiei is essentially working with them as a prison sentence, and as they say, he'll need all the help he can get.
In the end, I think my main problem with Hiei in his first appearance is his drawing. He just looks pretty poorly drawn to me.
Maybe it's just the eyes. They seem so wrong at first.
Spoiler
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.inetres.com%2Fgp%2Fanime%2Fyuyu%2F05-09%2Fyuyu08_01.jpg&hash=1854645a6096a272291672b2e0bbf7c3de963b4d)
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.free-hiei-yu-yu-hakusho.img-download.com%2Fpobierz%2Fhiei-yu-yu-hakusho.jpeg&hash=a69bf2cfc3d4b58747b9de656a8b0ebd58d7fac0)
Spoiler
Once again, that's nothing really surprising. A lot of older long-running shows like this would have dirt-cheap budgets to work with during their initial production. If they survived along enough through popularity, than their budget would raise by a little bit (but only a little), and they could afford better art design and animation for the show. In this case, a lot of the early episodes of YYH had pretty crappy art and animation, which gradually got better as the series progressed.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 16, 2013, 01:53:15 PM
Once again, that's nothing really surprising. A lot of older long-running shows like this would have dirt-cheap budgets to work with during their initial production. If they survived along enough through popularity, than their budget would raise by a little bit (but only a little), and they could afford better art design and animation for the show. In this case, a lot of the early episodes of YYH had pretty crappy art and animation, which gradually got better as the series progressed.
I know, but I just think that Hiei design not only looks bad, but wrong. The early episodes did work with a cheaper budget, but Kurama's design was still right, even if it improved later on.
The early episodes in most anime have that problem, but they eventually get most of them ironed out. The direction in YYH gets better and better as the series goes to the point where it actually saves the last arc from the source material. It's quite impressive, in my opinion.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 15, 2013, 05:54:45 PM
Hiei's actual reason for helping out Yusuke in the Saint Beasts arc made sense, in that both he and Kurama basically either had the choice of working for Koenma to redeem themselves for their crimes, or face other-worldly punishment. Obviously they'd pick the option that allowed them to actually do shit, even though in Hiei's case its not like he really wanted to help out Yusuke at that time.
The thing that didn't make sense was how Yusuke was so easily trusting of Hiei, when they had been clear enemies in their last encounter, and Hiei even went as far as to kidnap Keiko and attempt to turn her into a demon. It just never made sense that Yusuke would completely forget about something like that. With Kurama, it at least made sense that he got along with the team right away since he was already established to be a good guy in the first arc he appeared in, when he helped out Yusuke.
At any rate, both Hiei and Kurama became awesome characters in their own right as the series progressed, but I do still feel that their inclusion was a bit shoe-horned in during the Saint Beasts arc, and while it still makes sense from a story standpoint, I do think that there should have been a bit more hostility between Hiei and the rest of the group (aside from Kurama who had a better understanding of him), and some time should have been spent on them having trust issues with one another, rather than Hiei pretty much feeling like a regular team member within just a single arc.
Yeah, I was thinking about how Yusuke trusted Hiei with his and the others' lives during that falling ceiling trap part right when they first entered the castle. That made no sense.
To be fair, the circumstances made it so that he kind of had no choice but to trust Hiei. Even if Hiei stayed to hold the wall up, they all would have been crushed eventually after they ran out of strength. At the time, Hiei was the fastest member by far, and the only one who could possibly reach the switch to stop the trap in time, so it was either a choice between trusting Hiei or death. That said, it would have worked better in that scene if it showed Yusuke carefully considering whether he should trust Hiei with that responsibility or not, and perhaps think back to how they were previously enemies, or at least show him begrudgingly asking Hiei to go for the switch. The way he asked him, it felt like he had complete faith in Hiei, and didn't even show a sign of considering that he was his enemy just a little while before that point, which to me was pretty strange.
I don't know. Yusuke gave his reasoning for believing Hiei would pull the switch, and I kind of liked it. :P
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 17, 2013, 12:48:42 AM
To be fair, the circumstances made it so that he kind of had no choice but to trust Hiei. Even if Hiei stayed to hold the wall up, they all would have been crushed eventually after they ran out of strength. At the time, Hiei was the fastest member by far, and the only one who could possibly reach the switch to stop the trap in time, so it was either a choice between trusting Hiei or death. That said, it would have worked better in that scene if it showed Yusuke carefully considering whether he should trust Hiei with that responsibility or not, and perhaps think back to how they were previously enemies, or at least show him begrudgingly asking Hiei to go for the switch. The way he asked him, it felt like he had complete faith in Hiei, and didn't even show a sign of considering that he was his enemy just a little while before that point, which to me was pretty strange.
Yeah, the last sentence is what I am talking about. Yusuke smiled at him and said he trusted him. That made no sense.
Quote from: gunswordfist on March 17, 2013, 01:06:21 AM
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 17, 2013, 12:48:42 AM
To be fair, the circumstances made it so that he kind of had no choice but to trust Hiei. Even if Hiei stayed to hold the wall up, they all would have been crushed eventually after they ran out of strength. At the time, Hiei was the fastest member by far, and the only one who could possibly reach the switch to stop the trap in time, so it was either a choice between trusting Hiei or death. That said, it would have worked better in that scene if it showed Yusuke carefully considering whether he should trust Hiei with that responsibility or not, and perhaps think back to how they were previously enemies, or at least show him begrudgingly asking Hiei to go for the switch. The way he asked him, it felt like he had complete faith in Hiei, and didn't even show a sign of considering that he was his enemy just a little while before that point, which to me was pretty strange.
Yeah, the last sentence is what I am talking about. Yusuke smiled at him and said he trusted him. That made no sense.
Well... alright. I just made a post addressing that, but okay. :sweat:
Yeah, I know Yusuke had no choice and all but he seemed to genuinely trust a guy who attacked his girlfriend a few months ago with a sword. That's what's weird.
Also, it's funny how Hiei was like the most 1-dimensional villain in the series.
Quote from: gunswordfist on March 17, 2013, 01:27:18 AM
Yeah, I know Yusuke had no choice and all but he seemed to genuinely trust a guy who attacked his girlfriend a few months ago with a sword. That's what's weird.
It was just 2 weeks ago at that point, actually. The dub screwed up when it said that Yusuke had trained with Genkai for 6 months. He only trained with her for about a week. And that was pretty much the only gap of time that separated the Three Artifacts arc from the Saint Beasts arc.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 17, 2013, 01:40:13 AM
Quote from: gunswordfist on March 17, 2013, 01:27:18 AM
Yeah, I know Yusuke had no choice and all but he seemed to genuinely trust a guy who attacked his girlfriend a few months ago with a sword. That's what's weird.
It was just 2 weeks ago at that point, actually. The dub screwed up when it said that Yusuke had trained with Genkai for 6 months. He only trained with her for about a week. And that was pretty much the only gap of time that separated the Three Artifacts arc from the Saint Beasts arc.
Whoa...It's retarded that Yusuke could get that much stronger in a week. I can see why they changed it, even though 6 months seems too long. I swore they said it was like 2 months.
Yusuke wasn't very smart before the Dark Tournament arc. He made a lot of dumb mistakes.
That's another thing I like about this series. Characters have subtle little developments as the series goes along, besides just having them change after one single big event like how most shonen do. They grow over the course of the story. For instance, Yusuke was just a punk kid who's heart happened to be in the right place during the first season. In the 2nd season, he started maturing a little bit and thinking things through more carefully. It was particular insightful in his fight with Toguro when he mentioned that he at one point had envied Toguro's strength, until he learned how Tugoro basically sold out his humanity to attain it, which shows that Yusuke wasn't just you're generic goody two-shoes in how he actually had some respect and admiration for the villain (as more of like a rival), until he became completely disgusted with who he really was, and realized that it was more important to him that he stayed who he was rather than just blindly trying to pursue power. By the Chapter Black arc, he had come along way, and he was also forced to skew the lines of what he had considered moral to get through certain encounters in that arc. In another insightful moment, Genkai notes how earlier on, Yusuke would have been hot-headed enough to jump Sensui the moment he discovered his identity as Black Angel. However, upon Sensui revealing himself, Yusuke was more reserved and was smart enough not to immediately pursue him. Part of this was because Sensui somehow scared him a little (which he admitted), but I feel that there was also a part of Yusuke that had really matured by that point, as Genkai pointed out. By the end of the final arc, Yusuke had pretty much given up on fighting, and at that point made the decision that he just wanted to pursue a normal life. He clearly wasn't the same kid he was at the beginning of the series, and you could see that he changed over the course of the story, but it was never in just one big moment where he abruptly changed. It happened in a gradual and believable way, which is something that I find most shonen series can't really do with their characters.
I believe it was mostly because he was scared of him but Yusuke did do a good job of noticing that something was 'missing' about Sensui. Before that, he wouldn't have cared.
My favorite change (I'll say so far since I am really paying attention on the rewatch) is still Yusuke and Kuwabara at the start of Chapter Black. It was clear that Yusuke has been through a lot and both don't really care for petty street fights anymore. Especially Kuwabara. He even says that and unlike Yusuke, he didn't go off looking for a fight anyway. Kuwabara was more mature at that point, likely because he was near the end of his character arc. Hell, he might have been more mature throughout the entire series. He actually went to school, he went out of his way to assist Yusuke during the Saint Beasts arc and cared about his Spirit World job and saving the world WAY before Yusuke.
I'm not sure I can say that Yusuke had given up on fighting. It seems like that was the one constant in his character. Didn't he say that he was going to return to demon world someday and would fight again in the tournament? I also remember him saying that all of the results of this first demon world tournament just sort of came out that way because he was "just fighting" for the enjoyment of it.
I know Hiei, Kuwabara, and Kurama were about done with fighting by the end but I think Yusuke meant fighting competitively. In the Three Kings arc you could tell he just wanted to go home because he would rather be with his friends and family then fighting it out over something he barely cared about.
Watched episodes 81 and 82. I've never seen 81 before. I missed how they first went into Game Master's territory and how all 7 of them went into the cave. I liked seeing Seaman and Genkai help out beyond giving advice and I saw the one Yusuke 'fight' that I missed in the series. This all was pretty 'out there' for me when it comes to this show. There was a tennis match, jet fight and Yusuke battled digital monsters. Yusuke still being an impulsive twit made me actually wonder if it would take Korra this many episodes for her to not be just that :D
What else? It was nice seeing someone talk about getting the clap and Yusuke calling GM a little bitch. Then I caught up to the first part of the GM episodes which is when Kaito loses his game. How clever that part is always impresses me. What Kurama has to do to win is coming up in the next episode. This all reminds me that Kurama seems like he would be a good main character of a show. Funny enough, Hiei continues to look dumber than ever in this arc. I cracked up when Genkai said something like he was being stupid and could be study buddies with Yusuke.And where the hell did Kurama get time to change his costume on the way to the cave entrance? Lol
Quote from: gunswordfist on July 06, 2013, 03:37:45 AMAnd where the hell did Kurama get time to change his costume on the way to the cave entrance? Lol
That was always a weird part to me. Always made me giggle.
Such is a problem with adaptations of long-running weekly shonen series. You get obvious mistakes like that when the episodes are obviously rushed. If you think that's bad, then you'd be shocked to learn that YYH is nearly a masterpiece in terms of not having too many mistakes compared to shit like Naruto and such, which have MULTIPLE memes based on animation mistakes in the anime, alone. Dragon Ball Z has a shit-ton of mistakes as well.
Yeah, DBZ is the king of animation bloopers.
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.behindthevoiceactors.com%2F_img%2Fvoice_this%2F15.jpg&hash=e30a9f955310c93d27f5b2f65699fb5b4a72a664)
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk270%2FClouds-Are-Nice%2FPosters%2FPoster-Sasuke.jpg&hash=6c2232a30a5c0d066d7ceeb54ed7560cb522f863)
Found a screen cap from the upcoming Yu Yu Hakusho reboot mentioned in this week's issue of Shonen Jump.
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fk48Hkd0.jpg&hash=ff8b2706e7a40ec96a0c43d8cfa5a525fd599dc2)
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
So I've come to realize a few things about YYH over time.
One is about the Maze Castle story arc. In the past I've flip flopped with this one on how much I like it compared to the other stories in the Spirit Detective arc, though it was generally close to the top of the list. But I've come to realize that, depending on my mood, it can now flip flop from being one of my favorite parts of the Spirit Detective arc (probably 2nd favorite), to being the most boring part of it. What I mean is, when I'm totally into YYH, I can greatly enjoy the Maze Castle episodes largely because it marks the beginning of the main team of Yusuke, Kuwabara, Kurama, and Hiei. The three stories that came before it (Yusuke's death, the Three Artifacts, and Genkai's Tournament) were all good but Maze Castle tends to feel like the first "epic" story in the series where these characters must go to another world and storm a castle to save the human world from falling into chaos...... But on the other hand, there have also been those times in the past where I just watched YYH fairly casually, watching it just because there was nothing else I could think of to watch. And in these times, Maze Castle could get kind of boring and tended to be the point where I'd frequently just give up on rewatching the series through. I'm not even totally sure why. It just failed to capture my attention in these times.
I think that, over the years, more and more I've come to realize that the Rescue Yukina story is clearly the best story in the first season. And I think a lot of that has to do with timing. The characters just got done with a big journey in Maze Castle, and the series is beginning its shift into the Dark Tournament arc in terms of story and tone (and even animation, if I remember correctly). There's just something that's so laid back about this story arc which makes it so fun. It's like after the 8 episode Maze Castle, and before we go into the Dark Tournament (the longest part of the series by far) the story scales back and just takes things lightly to give us a short break. It's just Yusuke, Kuwabara, and Botan getting on a bus and heading out into the woods to rescue a girl. That's it. And there's just a sense of fun that comes from it. It's almost as if Yusuke and Kuwabara are kind of enjoying themselves (I love some of the dialogue in this arc, such as when Yusuke goes on about how the forest is a big waste of space) and that sense of fun extends onto the audience, or at least me. The structure of it almost feels like a video game. I hope that made sense, at least, because it probably became a bit rambly. Basically, I just like how laid back and light the Rescue Yukina story is after the higher stakes of Maze Castle, and as a break that begins to segue into the massive Dark Tournament.
I'm not sure if anyone would disagree with considering Rescue Yukina as being the highlight of the Spirit Detective arc. It's my favorite part with the Three Artifacts coming in second. I would easily call Maze Castle the low-light of the first arc for simply being a typical shonen arc but at least it is the first time the four guys become a real team so I don't dislike it.
The dub was probably at its funniest in Rescue Yukina, though. Annoyed Yusuke is the funniest Yusuke.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 31, 2013, 05:00:53 PM
The dub was probably at its funniest in Rescue Yukina, though. Annoyed Yusuke is the funniest Yusuke.
Perhaps I should've said that. It might be less about Yusuke and Kuwabara and more about just the people dubbing having fun with this arc, and said fun extending to the audience. Or both.
I have no complaints about Saint Beasts, even though once I think about it, 3 of the 4 Beasts are really generic. The exception being the white tiger demon. Nothing too unique but he did have a lot of personality. Probably my favorite Kuwabara opponent. (Elder Toguro is not supposed to be likable)
So, you know how SFDebris has that system where he rates episodes of shows on a scale relative to the best and worst of that show itself? I figured that I'd do the same thing for Yu Yu Hakusho, except in the form of arcs rather than episodes.
Ghost Yusuke- 9/10 (Really underrated, actually)
Three Artifacts- 7/10
Genkai Tournament- 7/10
Saint Beasts- 5/10
Rescue Yukina- 8/10
Dark Tournament- 9/10
Chapter Black- 10/10 (The absolute pinnacle of the series)
Three Kings- 8/10
I'll give it a try.
Ghost Yusuke- 9/10 (I agree, it's a really strong and original start)
Three Artifacts- 8/10 (Yusuke makes this arc, but it's not as strong as it could be)
Genkai Tournament- 7/10 (It was fun, but nothing truly game-changing)
Saint Beasts- 6/10 (Meh, the most unoriginal part of the series, Hiei gets some good development, but that's about it)
Rescue Yukina- 8/10 (I like how FUN they made this arc until we get to the Toguro Bros. when everything gets deadly serious)
Dark Tournament- 9/10 (It goes on a bit too long, which is my only issue, but it's one of the best tournament arcs out there)
Chapter Black- 10/10 (Excellent)
Three Kings- 7/10 (The Hiei and Kurama material is 10/10, but everything else doesn't feel nearly as good except for the ending)
Just out of curiosity, would you consider YYH to still be one of your favorite anime (shonen or otherwise)?
I only ask because making this list made me realize that there are really only specific portions of this series that I find to be downright perfect, but despite my thoughts on the rest of the series, I still feel that the overall package is worth WAY more than the sum of its parts. Broken down individually, most of the show is still great, but as a complete entity it really is my favorite anime series of all time. And that "pinnacle" of the series is SO damn good that its good enough to make this one of my favorites on its own, regardless of the rest of the series, but as it stands the rest of the series is great for the most part, as well. Also, keep in mind that my scores were only relative to the series itself, anyways. Compared to 90% of any other shonen series' out there, MOST of these arcs would be a 10, and Chapter Black would have to be an 11 or higher for how much it outclasses most shonen manga and/or anime ever made.
QuoteDark Tournament- 9/10 (It goes on a bit too long, which is my only issue, but it's still THE best tournament arc out there)
Fixed. :)
I don't think I could use the same grading system for mini arcs like the Saint Beasts and The Genkai tournament, versus entire arcs like the Dark Tournament and Chapter Black. I might just do the four big arcs and then rate the small arcs against each other.
Spirit Detective - 8/10
Dark Tournament - 10/10
Chapter Black 10/10 (this deserves an 11 really if the scale could go higher)
Three Kings - 6/10
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on August 12, 2013, 09:55:11 PM
Just out of curiosity, would you consider YYH to still be one of your favorite anime (shonen or otherwise)?
I only ask because making this list made me realize that there are really only specific portions of this series that I find to be downright perfect, but despite my thoughts on the rest of the series, I still feel that the overall package is worth WAY more than the sum of its parts. Broken down individually, most of the show is still great, but as a complete entity it really is my favorite anime series of all time. And that "pinnacle" of the series is SO damn good that its good enough to make this one of my favorites on its own, regardless of the rest of the series, but as it stands the rest of the series is great for the most part, as well. Also, keep in mind that my scores were only relative to the series itself, anyways. Compared to 90% of any other shonen series' out there, MOST of these arcs would be a 10, and Chapter Black would have to be an 11 or higher for how much it outclasses most shonen manga and/or anime ever made.
Well, few anime I would rate every arc high, so it probably would be. The only part I would probably not stack up with the rest are the Saint Beasts, but even that is still enjoyable. Nothing (in the anime) would really mark the whole thing down for me.
QuoteQuoteDark Tournament- 9/10 (It goes on a bit too long, which is my only issue, but it's still THE best tournament arc out there)
Fixed. :)
Probably, actually. Other than the tournaments in Dragonball, I can't think of any other great ones.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on August 12, 2013, 09:58:12 PM
I don't think I could use the same grading system for mini arcs like the Saint Beasts and The Genkai tournament, versus entire arcs like the Dark Tournament and Chapter Black. I might just do the four big arcs and then rate the small arcs against each other.
Spirit Detective - 8/10
Dark Tournament - 10/10
Chapter Black 10/10 (this deserves an 11 really if the scale could go higher)
Three Kings - 6/10
If you want to do it that way:
Spirit Detective - 9/10
Dark Tournament - 9/10
Chapter Black 10/10
Three Kings - 7/10 (It would be 8 if it was more fleshed out, but it is what it is)
That would probably tell you how strong I think the best parts of SD are.
Let's see here...........
Ghost Yusuke- 8/10 (Great start for the series)
Three Artifacts- 7/10
Genkai Tournament- 8/10
Saint Beasts- 6/10 (It got me into the series but I feel it doesn't hold up after the first time through)
Rescue Yukina- 9/10
Dark Tournament- 9/10
Chapter Black- 10/10 (OMG IT'S SO AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Three Kings- 8/10 (It's definitely a step-down from Chapter Black but there still is a lot of enjoyable parts like Hiei's back story)
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on August 12, 2013, 10:08:25 PMProbably, actually. Other than the tournaments in Dragonball, I can't think of any other great ones.
The tournament arc in Flame of Recca was pretty good as well, IMO, but other than that, Yu Yu Hakusho, and Dragon Ball, there aren't really any other high-profile tournament arcs that I'm aware of. The D of D arc in HSDK was amusing at best (and basically the last part of the manga that was half-way decent), but yeah, most other shonen tournament arcs are either forgettable or downright suck.
Fun! I should do this sometime for Bobobo and One Piece (and other shows as well ;) )! :)
Ghost Yusuke - 9/10. How many series begin the way Yu Yu Hakusho does? These are really good character-focused episodes that get you well-acquainted with the personalities of Yusuke, Kuwabara, Keiko, and Botan are before delving into the monster-fighting and battles that dominate the rest of the series. Every episode here I would consider solid, and while I'm somewhat remiss some nice stories from the early part of the manga were cut out, "Kuwabara: A Promise Between Men" is easily one of the most memorable episode in the series, and a personal favorite of mine as well.
Three Artifacts - 8/10. A good start to the Spirit Detective's casework, although not some of the series' best stuff.
Genkai's Tournament - 9/10 I just like it a lot. My second favorite part of the Spirit Detective saga outside the beginning.
Saint Beasts - 7.5/10. PERSONAL STORY TIME! I remember the first time I decided to watch Yu Yu Hakusho. Sure, I saw pieces of the Ghost Yusuke part of the Spirit Detective arc back when Toonami reaired it in February 2005, but I never payed much attention to it and Zatch Bell arrived before I gave it a proper viewing. So, I was happily surprised to discover it again a year and a half later. It was a Friday night one September 2006 long ago, and I had just discovered Colors TV's FUNimation Channel block. It had Case Closed! Kodocha! Fruits Basket! Spiral!?... (I remember absolutely nothing about this except that I watched it :P) And they aired them EVERY. WEEKNIGHT. 8PM - 10PM. Good times, good times. Anyway, one Friday night I discovered that at 10pm they aired Yu Yu Hakusho. I remembered the show aired on Toonami, and decided to check it out again. The night I first tuned in they were airing episode 15, "Genbu, the Stone Beast." I was treated to a tense trust moment, Hiei slashing an eye-demon right in the middle of it's...eye, and Kurama being a total badass in his fight with Genbu. So, I liked it. So I continued to watch the Saint Beast arc from there, and increasingly liked the show more and more. And the rest is history (or story time for other days, whatever). The point is I can never truly dislike the Saint Beast arc because I got into the series through it. However, I do think it is the weakest part of the show as a whole, and a pretty by the numbers story arc at the end of the day, and that's why I'm giving it only 7.5/10.
On a tangent, Colors TV post November 2006 FUNimation Channel Block > Post 2004 Toonami lineup. Maybe even the current Toonami lineup. I will elaborate on this in the appropriate thread.
Rescue Yukina - 8/10. Great, fun arc, introducing two extremely important and memorable villains.
Dark Tournament - 9.5/10. Team Dr. Itchigaki fight aside, this was a great arc, albeit a long one. Although the tournament thing became tiresome (although luckily not MAR-level tiresome), it is, in my opinion, the greatest Tournament arc ever written and the second greatest arc in Yu Yu Hakusho overall.
Chapter Black - 10/10. The pinnacle of the series, with one of my favorite concepts in an action series, the territories. I have yet to see any other series besides Hunter X Hunter come up with more clever and interesting fights than these. The characters, of course, is the main reason why this arc ends up so good, with Shinobu Sensui specifically making this arc one of the greatest in it's genre.
Three Kings - 8.5/10. The Tournament stuff is a let down in a lot of ways, but everything else? Perfect closure to all the characters, and to the entire series in general. I cannot imagine the anime without this arc; it just feels too important to me. The ending is easily my second favorite in any anime series (Maison Ikkoku's being my favorite ;) ).
By Major arc I would rank 'em:
Spirit Detective - 8.5/10
Dark Tournament - 9.5/10
Chapter Black - 10/10
Three Kings - 8.5/10
Quote from: Cartoon X on August 12, 2013, 10:34:27 PM
Fun! I should do this sometime for Bobobo and One Piece (and other shows as well ;) )! :)
On that note, I'd be interested in doing something like this for One Piece as well.
You could probably do this for Dragon Ball and Z, too.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on August 12, 2013, 10:31:27 PM
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on August 12, 2013, 10:08:25 PMProbably, actually. Other than the tournaments in Dragonball, I can't think of any other great ones.
The tournament arc in Flame of Recca was pretty good as well, IMO, but other than that, Yu Yu Hakusho, and Dragon Ball, there aren't really any other high-profile tournament arcs that I'm aware of. The D of D arc in HSDK was amusing at best (and basically the last part of the manga that was half-way decent), but yeah, most other shonen tournament arcs are either forgettable or downright suck.
Oh yeah, the Recca one was pretty good. But yeah, they don't stand out too much as a whole.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on August 12, 2013, 10:53:23 PM
You could probably do this for Dragon Ball and Z, too.
I was actually thinking of doing one for the manga as a whole series, since I kind of don't like DBZ as an anime, these days. ;)
Yeah, while I would have liked more of Yusuke's stories as a spirit to have been kept for the anime it probably would have killed the pace. There was also the issue that none of the stories or people he meets actually come into play later in the story. Had some of them come back for Chapter Black or maybe some sort of issue with Kuwabara in Three Kings, then I could have seen them being kept.
I still think his boxer friend coming back for Chapter Black would have been a really nice touch.
That one story where Yusuke helps that kid who got picked on in boxing was my favorite stand-alone story from the Ghost Yusuke portion of the manga. I do wish that part got adapted into the anime, myself.
Now to compare sub arcs individually.
Surprised to be Dead - 7/10
Three Artifacts - 7/10
Genkai Tournament - 7/10
Maze Castle - 6 to 8/10
Rescue Yukina - 8/10
Ghost Yusuke - 9/10 - I don't get why everyone calls this arc too slow.
Three Artifacts - 7/10 - 2 generic villains (funny enough, one is Hiei and he is arguably the most generic main villain in the show) Kurama is great from day one and his meeting with Yusuke is the best part of this arc.
Genkai's Tournament - 9/10 - THIS is the greatest part of early YYH. It's a fun little arc and the marathon of it on as made me a fan of Yu yu Hakusho for life.
Saint Beasts - 7/10 - Yeah it's the weakest but not mediocre imo.
Rescue Yukina - 8/10 - Now that I've seen all the episodes within this arc (ok, I missed like one) I see how really fun it is. I didn't pay too much attention to it but now it has gone from 7 to 8.
Dark Tournament - 10/10 - Forget you guys. This arc isn't getting enough credit from even you. A lot of good characters get introduced here, this arc gives Yusuke more character development per saga than any other and it has the best fights. The greatest arc out of any type of tv show.
Chapter Black - 9/10 - Bare with me, I haven't finished my rewatching of it and even then I missed an episode or two (I don't think I've even seen Yusuke die) and most of the last Sensui fight.
Three Kings - 7/10 This arc had to happen because we got to see some of Kurama's past, everything you could ask for from Hiei's past and a good ending. Hmm, doesn't Genkai already have demons in her forest? That should work out well.
So I was thinking about this show. And I think we all pretty much agree that this is one of the best shonen series' out there (Is there anyone on this site who even thinks otherwise?).
However, if you could go back and have parts of the show (story elements, characters, Demon World Tournament, etc.) changed, what things would you change/delete in this series?
Honestly, if I was writing it I probably would have ended it with Chapter Black and tweaked the end of the arc.
But then, that would have been the source material. I never would have attempted anything afterwards, because I probably would have thought it was the logical endpoint.
Honestly, I like the series for what it is. Don't get me wrong, it has plenty of flaws which I'm no longer blinded to, but the way that I look at it is that it's my favorite series despite those flaws. And yet another thing is that some stuff I don't like about the series end up becoming some of its strengths later on, so it'd be a bit of a paradox if they were to be removed. An example of that is Genkai being brought back to life. It was a cop-out for the DT arc, but then she played a big role in the CB arc, so removing her would change things up big-time.
So, personally, I'll take YYH the way it is, flaws and all.
I like it as it is, too. But if I was the one actually writing the material, I honestly think I would have ended it there. Partially because I wouldn't have even considered the Three Kings story at all since I'm not Togashi who undoubtedly always has such things stewing in the back of his mind.
Three Kings had to happen. There was nowhere in Chapter Black that they could have revealed more about Hiei and Kurama's pasts.
Quote from: gunswordfist on December 17, 2013, 08:17:24 PM
Three Kings had to happen. There was nowhere in Chapter Black that they could have revealed more about Hiei and Kurama's pasts.
Yeah, that's mainly why I'm glad it happened. When all was said and done, there is little I would intentionally change if I were in charge.
:wth: You're confusing me.
OK, here's one of a few questions I have. Was the demon body Toguro was given the body of the demon he killed in the tournament 50 years ago?
Quote from: gunswordfist on December 17, 2013, 08:22:20 PM
:wth: You're confusing me.
Talon's question was if we were the one in charge of the material, then what would we do differently? I meant my answer in the style if I was the one who wrote the story then I probably wouldn't have thought of doing Three Kings at all. Other than it not being as good, because I ain't no manga writer, that would probably be the one thing I wouldn't have done because I wouldn't have thought of doing such an arc.
As for the way it is now, I'm fine with it.
QuoteOK, here's one of a few questions I have. Was the demon body Toguro was given the body of the demon he killed in the tournament 50 years ago?
I thought they simply changed his own body to match what he wanted.
Quote from: gunswordfist on December 17, 2013, 08:17:24 PM
Three Kings had to happen. There was nowhere in Chapter Black that they could have revealed more about Hiei and Kurama's pasts.
At the same time, I personally didn't need those backstories. They were interesting, but I didn't mind when their backstories were, for the most part, mysteries. I also think Hiei's backstory ended up contradicting facts from earlier on in the story, to the point of almost clashing with previous events (for example, Yukina couldn't have gone back to the ice world after the Rescuke Yukina story, as well as after the Dark Tournament, because she supposedly "never" returned to the ice world).
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on December 17, 2013, 08:03:49 PM
Honestly, I like the series for what it is. Don't get me wrong, it has plenty of flaws which I'm no longer blinded to, but the way that I look at it is that it's my favorite series despite those flaws. And yet another thing is that some stuff I don't like about the series end up becoming some of its strengths later on, so it'd be a bit of a paradox if they were to be removed. An example of that is Genkai being brought back to life. It was a cop-out for the DT arc, but then she played a big role in the CB arc, so removing her would change things up big-time.
So, personally, I'll take YYH the way it is, flaws and all.
Well, there are some things that wouldn't hurt anything later on. For example, I can't see any harm coming out of altering Hiei's character in the Three Artifacts arc to be a bit more consistent with how he is for the rest of the series, for anyone who didn't like him as he was at that time.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on December 17, 2013, 08:32:38 PMAt the same time, I personally didn't need those backstories. They were interesting, but I didn't mind when their backstories were, for the most part, mysteries. I also think Hiei's backstory ended up contradicting facts from earlier on in the story, to the point of almost clashing with previous events (for example, Yukina couldn't have gone back to the ice world after the Rescuke Yukina story, as well as after the Dark Tournament, because she supposedly "never" returned to the ice world).
You may just be confusing facts with something you either heard in the English dub (which took quite a few liberties in terms of the script) or the anime may have created that inconsistency. Either way, I don't recall it ever explicitly being stated that Yukina never returned to the ice world in the manga.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on December 17, 2013, 09:12:38 PM
Quote from: talonmalon333 on December 17, 2013, 08:32:38 PMAt the same time, I personally didn't need those backstories. They were interesting, but I didn't mind when their backstories were, for the most part, mysteries. I also think Hiei's backstory ended up contradicting facts from earlier on in the story, to the point of almost clashing with previous events (for example, Yukina couldn't have gone back to the ice world after the Rescuke Yukina story, as well as after the Dark Tournament, because she supposedly "never" returned to the ice world).
You may just be confusing facts with something you either heard in the English dub (which took quite a few liberties in terms of the script) or the anime may have created that inconsistency. Either way, I don't recall it ever explicitly being stated that Yukina never returned to the ice world in the manga.
Perhaps. 99% of my time watching YYH was with the dub. And to be honest, I never actually finished the manga (I should, someday). At the same time, though, wasn't the ice world described as some sort of terrible, empty place (in that the people live "empty" lives or something)? I'm surprised Yukina would return to that. Unless, in the manga/sub, they don't set up the ice world like that. Or maybe there's just more to the ice world than that.
So I was thinking about the question I posed, and it's really true that, for most of the show's problems, they end up turning into strengths. I wouldn't include Genkai because I think her planned revival revealed a really good part about Toguro's character. However, I came up with some other problems, and how they end up being strengths to me.
PROBLEM: Elder Toguro's return in Chapter Black.
RESULT: One of Kurama's best character moments in the entire series.
PROBLEM: Yusuke being revealed as part demon.
RESULT: The potential of the Three Kings arc.
PROBLEM: The Demon World Tournament.
RESULT: A really good ending.
I even can make some more good points about the Demon World Tournament, but I'll get to that later... I do have some things in this series that I'd change.
1. Give Hiei a better character design in his initial appearance, one more consistent with his look in future episodes. (I don't have much of a problem with his personality in these initial episodes. I think it makes sense that he would greatly mellow out after losing to Yusuke due to arrogance.)
2. Remove the point about Kurama and Hiei having previously been A-class demons. To me, it just seemed unnecessary (and maybe it was a dub error, but I remember Kurama saying that Toguro at 80% displayed more power than anything he had ever sensed before). Especially Hiei. That seemed more like them saying he was once A-class... just for the sake of him being an A-class. I also don't like to think that Yoko Kurama, in the Dark Tournament finals, was an A-class. It's just better for the story if, at that point in the series, Yusuke and Toguro are the strongest characters ever seen.
3. Lower the power levels of most of the characters in the Three Kings arc. I didn't like how everyone and their dog was an S-class, and how the A-class demons were revealed to be essentially fodder despite being played up as rivaling "the titans of Greek myth". That was a letdown.
My second and third points are bigger (that first point doesn't mean anything really). I especially don't like how the Dark Tournament characters (Chu, Rinku, Jin, Touya, Shishiwakumaru, and Suzuka) are suddenly A or S classes. Not only does that make them stronger than Toguro, but more importantly, it just makes me wonder... was Genkai holding back on Yusuke?
I think most of the demons in the tournament should've been B-class, including the Dark Tournament characters. And then some would be A and S classes.
Other than those three things, I can't think of any... There might be some plot holes in the Three Kings arc, though. I just can't remember any at the moment.
I don't actually think Elder Toguro returning was ever a problem, in my opinion. If you think about it, Younger Toguro still wouldn't have been able to kill him at full strength because of his powers. What Kurama did to him was the only possible fate he ever had and in my opinion is a far worse fate than Younger Toguro suffered.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on December 18, 2013, 11:09:50 PM
I don't actually think Elder Toguro returning was ever a problem, in my opinion. If you think about it, Younger Toguro still wouldn't have been able to kill him at full strength because of his powers.
To me, it looks like Younger Toguro's punch essentially obliterates him. I'm actually not sure how he survived. That said...
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on December 18, 2013, 11:09:50 PM
What Kurama did to him was the only possible fate he ever had and in my opinion is a far worse fate than Younger Toguro suffered.
That's why I didn't include it with my main problems. It, along with my feelings on demon Yusuke and the Demon World Tournament, were in response to E-K's point, in that they end up just being strengths.
Uh what? They made it clear that Yoko Kurama wasn't A class until Yusuke died.
Quote from: gunswordfist on December 19, 2013, 02:16:37 PM
Uh what? They made it clear that Yoko Kurama wasn't A class until Yusuke died.
I was referring to how Kurama was supposedly an A-class in his former life, which I thought was a slightly contrived revelation that did nothing to benefit his character, and ultimately just kind of dampened the idea that Yusuke and Toguro were the strongest characters that appeared in the Dark Tournament (but now, when Kurama took that potion in his fight against Karasu, it became: Kurama >>>>>>>>>>>> Yusuke and Toguro). It's not a plot hole in any way, but I liked it more when Yusuke and Toguro were stronger than Yoko Kurama.
Just a personal niggle.
I'm pretty sure Yoko was still B class then.
What makes you say that? They specifically state that Yoko Kurama was an A class.
If he was B class it makes more sense because A and S class can't go into the human world.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on December 19, 2013, 03:58:05 PM
If he was B class it makes more sense because A and S class can't go into the human world.
That makes sense, but again, doesn't they specifically state that Yoko Kurama was an A class? I know all logic and sense of storytelling should make him weaker than that, but from what I remember, the characters say that he was indeed A class.
Unless it was just a dub error?
It might be an error, I'm not sure. But it would make more sense from every other perspective if he was B.
That does make more sense. Also, I always got the feeling like Yoko Kurama wasn't that much stronger than Karasu.
So this is a question to anyone familiar with the Yu Yu Hakusho sub... Yeah, I don't know why I'm on a YYH high lately. It's not like I've even watched it in years. I guess now that my high on my favorite show ever put on TV has passed over, I've moved onto talking about my 2nd favorite. :D
Like I said before, 99% of my time watching YYH was spent on the dub. I did, at one point, watch the English version with the Japanese subtitles, but I'm not sure for how many episodes. But anyway... in the last few episodes of the Three Kings season, when Yusuke is fighting Yomi, he creates that "new" type of golden energy. In the English dub, one character refers to it as Sacred Energy, but then another corrects them by saying "This is something new". What do they say in the Japanese version? Do they refer to it just as Sacred Energy?
Quote from: talonmalon333 on December 18, 2013, 10:49:05 PMI do have some things in this series that I'd change.
1. Give Hiei a better character design in his initial appearance, one more consistent with his look in future episodes. (I don't have much of a problem with his personality in these initial episodes. I think it makes sense that he would greatly mellow out after losing to Yusuke due to arrogance.)
2. Remove the point about Kurama and Hiei having previously been A-class demons. To me, it just seemed unnecessary (and maybe it was a dub error, but I remember Kurama saying that Toguro at 80% displayed more power than anything he had ever sensed before). Especially Hiei. That seemed more like them saying he was once A-class... just for the sake of him being an A-class. I also don't like to think that Yoko Kurama, in the Dark Tournament finals, was an A-class. It's just better for the story if, at that point in the series, Yusuke and Toguro are the strongest characters ever seen.
3. Lower the power levels of most of the characters in the Three Kings arc. I didn't like how everyone and their dog was an S-class, and how the A-class demons were revealed to be essentially fodder despite being played up as rivaling "the titans of Greek myth". That was a letdown.
My second and third points are bigger (that first point doesn't mean anything really). I especially don't like how the Dark Tournament characters (Chu, Rinku, Jin, Touya, Shishiwakumaru, and Suzuka) are suddenly A or S classes. Not only does that make them stronger than Toguro, but more importantly, it just makes me wonder... was Genkai holding back on Yusuke?
I think most of the demons in the tournament should've been B-class, including the Dark Tournament characters. And then some would be A and S classes.
Okay so, despite the fact that those last two complaints were, as I called them, my "bigger complaints", I'm going to take them back right now. The first one, the Hiei one, still stands... Though that's really completely insignificant and I could honestly care less. It's just a character design. But anyway, I'm going to explain why I take back those other two.
2. I'm not really for Hiei and Kurama having once been A class demons, but I'm not exactly against it anymore. It doesn't matter much, and them being overwhelmed by Toguro's power in the Dark Tournament finals can be explained that, well, his power is incredible. As they are now, they are nothing to him. Plus, it does add a certain level of mystic to them that they were once these powerful beings, even if that mystic is a bit shallow. It also explains how Yusuke's death managed to push them from B to A classes, whereas Kuwabara's fake death merely pushed Yusuke from B to B+ (as they have the potential of A class demons, and Kuwabara has the potential to wield the Dimensional powers, of course). I still don't entirely love the idea of Yoko Kurama being A class in the Dark Tournament, as that makes him more powerful than Yusuke and Toguro (it not only hurts the story flow, but it also doesn't make sense because he had his hands full with someone as weak as Karasu). But at the same time... no where did they indicate that the potion reverted Kurama back to when he was in his absolute prime. Maybe the potion Yoko back to his pre-A days? He does seem more cocky and less calm and calculated than he does in flashbacks shown in the Three Kings season. There's also the issue of Yoko Kurama escaping Demon World to reach the human and Spirit Worlds, despite the fact that A class demons can't get through the Kekkai Barrier. But, as we learn in Demon World, there are loopholes. Not to mention, Kurama always has a plan. If Hokushin can get past the barrier, so can Kurama.
2. I never liked how the A class demons were thrown in the backseat and how S class is basically the only thing that mattered in the end. But then I stopped to think and decided what characters should be cut from the S class. And honestly... I couldn't name anyone. They all make sense. Heck, even Jin, Chu, and the rest of that Dark Tournament crew was fine in the S class (though I still hate how they pulled it off, it just undermines earlier parts of the story knowing that Genkai was holding back on Yusuke). Really, when I stopped to think about it, I realized that, as with many things about the fourth season, my issue here just goes right back to the main flaw: the Demon World Tournament. When you're going to make a tournament that's based around individuals, of course the A class demons won't matter. However, if the Three Kings season ended with the war that they were building up to, then it would have worked, making the A class demons as essentially the front men with the S class demons as the top soldiers.
So really, scrap all three of those complaints. At this point, the only thing I feel like I might tweak is adding a bit more consistency. For example, it doesn't make sense when they call King Yama's vault "the most guarded vault of Spirit World" when it was forcebly overpowered by three low class demons (if they had said Kurama formed some plan to sneak past security, that'd make sense, but it's shown that they used brute force to get through), and how Spirit World's previous men who went into Maze Castle were killed (we all know now that Spirit World's men are way above the level of anything the Saint Beasts can throw)... Also, having a war instead of a Demon World Tournament fits under the "consistency" banner, as it is consistent with the tone of the first half of season four, being what it was all building up to. But those things, with the exception of the Demon World Tournament, are nitpicks.
I don't have a problem with S class demons being able to trump A class demons with ease. That's WHY they are S class in the first place, because nobody can compare to the power that they wield. What I hated was how Togashi made it so damn easy for almost everyone to achieve S class, which really made it seem like nothing special. You could tell that he really didn't care anymore by that point in time. Personally, I think it would've been better as something that only a select few could attain, like having the Three Kings be the only living beings to be ranked that high, and maybe Yusuke as well, only when he used his Mazoku transformation.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on January 18, 2014, 12:28:56 AM
I don't have a problem with S class demons being able to trump A class demons with ease. That's WHY they are S class in the first place, because nobody can compare to the power that they wield. What I hated was how Togashi made it so damn easy for almost everyone to achieve S class, which really made it seem like nothing special. You could tell that he really didn't care anymore by that point in time. Personally, I think it would've been better as something that only a select few could attain, like having the Three Kings be the only living beings to be ranked that high, and maybe Yusuke as well, only when he used his Mazoku transformation.
I'd also add Sensui in there. I really do think it's was effective and gave off a feeling of hopelessness when we saw that Sensui is equal to an S class demon, and was able to overpower Koenma's pacifier spell, as well as Kuwabara, Kurama, and Hiei once they hit A class in a vain attempt to avenge the death of Yusuke. When he reached the S class, it still felt like a new concept that hadn't been overused yet. Plus, I still hold the opinion that Sensui is the only character that lived up to the feeling of overwhelming power and danger that we get from those glimpses of Yusuke imagining what S class demons could do to the human world (when he imagines those massive demons appearing on earth and essentially destroying everything in episode 71, that scene is still intimidating to me).
I wanted to elaborate on this last night, but it was kind of late and I didn't feel like typing it then. :P
When you say "I don't have a problem with S class demons being able to trump A class demons", I didn't mean that was the part that bothered me. I was getting at the same thing as you, in that there were too many S class demons. And they do kind of make it look easy to get to that level. Again, I don't like Genkai raising that group from being average human world demons to S class, despite the fact that she couldn't even get Yusuke to being half of Toguro's level before he absorbed her Spirit Wave Orb.
However, the reason I no longer mind the amount of S class characters at this point is that, well, just about all of them make sense. If you just go through them...
Sensui: I explained in my last post why he deserves to fit into the S class. In fact, I think he deserves to be there more than anyone else in the series, practically.
Yusuke: Well, when Yusuke was reborn as a demon, he was said to be roughly equals with Sensui. It's true that Sensui still had a clear advantage and was pummeling him until Raizen took over, but I'd still say Yusuke fits into the S class.
The Three Kings: They're the rules of Demon World. Of course they fit there, even though Raizen is the only one who seems incredibly powerful (with Yomi and especially Mukuro, they seem less impressive than Sensui but everything says "they are so powerful", so I guess that makes them more powerful even though it goes against the "show, don't tell" rule).
Hokushin, Kirin, and Shachi: These guys are the right hand men of the kings (well, at least for a portion of the series), and were supposedly more powerful than Yusuke at the beginning of season four. So I can accept them being low/mid S classes. I don't mind characters this important being S class.
Shigure (and the rest of Mukuro's elite soldiers): I suppose you could say these guys could've been made as strong A class demons and. However, they did state that Hiei was able to slaughter 500+ A class demons with ease, so it makes sense... Of course, if you want to argue that it's dumb that they made it so easy for Hiei to kill that many A class demons with ease, I can understand that complaint completely. :P
Hiei: He is one of the main characters, so I can accept him reaching S class. I do think it was a bit lame that a year of training apparently made him Yusuke's equal, despite the fact that Yusuke trained for a year as well and was already 10x's stronger than Hiei. But whatever...
Kurama: Again, he's a main character. And he did kill Shachi with ease. Though he did pull that off by surprising Shachi (Shachi had no reason to suspect that Kurama would suddenly turn into a fox with power rivaling his own), so maybe you could say Kurama didn't have to reach S class. I wouldn't make that argument, though.
Jin, Chu, Rinku, Touya, Shishi, and Suzuka: These guys didn't have to be S class. It really didn't drive the story at all, and the only thing it accomplished was, again, making it look as if Genkai held back on Yusuke severely (I know i keep going on about that, but it's my biggest problem with the whole series). I would've accepted it, however, if they stated that the group had been training rigorously since the Dark Tournament, and then, with a combination of training from both Genkai and Kurama, they reach A class by the skin of their teeth. And then, sticking around in Demon World for another stretch of time, they manage to train and reach high A class or even low S class. If they went that direction, I would've accepted the extreme boost they ended up getting. But as it is now, I don't like what they did.
Enki's Group: These guys were Raizen's sparing buddies and were possibly, at their prime, even stronger than Yomi and Mukuro... Then again, I suppose you could say they were tailor made for the Demon World Tournament. Had Togashi went with a war in the final arc, I always imagined these guys siding with Yusuke, but I suppose you could say they wouldn't even need to exist if the story took that direction.
If I had to guess, The 3 Kings and Yusuke were Super s class and everyone else was S class.
Also, Karasu only gave Yoko Kurama trouble because he hit him hard at the beginning and end of his transformation. I also think Yoko was only mid B class at that point. If he was A, yeah, that would be a real complaint. Yusuke also said that he thought Toguro was clearly the strongest demon there was so Yoko actually being stronger would be a plothole.
... the heck is a super S class?
And yeah, Yoko being A class in the Dark Tournament would be a plot hole. People would've sensed it, and Karasu wouldn't be as confident as he was. They were written as equals during the tournament, and Togashi didn't come up with that "Yoko was an A class" story idea until much later.
My guess is the potion reverted Yoko Kurama back to his pre-A class days. Nothing like that is ever stated, but it's the only idea that makes any type of sense, so I've always just gone with it.
Also, another thing I don't mind about the S class in Demon World is that it is revealed that they are the most civilized. While I still prefer the idea of leaving the Demon World shrouded in mystery, being that they did end up making a fourth season I think it's best that they went the direction of showing that humans and demons aren't all that different, and that the cases of demons truly causing harm to the human race is 1/1,000,000.
Koenma mentioned Super S Class when he first started talking about all of the classes.
And yeah, I liked how they made it seem like a lot of demons had some type of honor. It kind of went with how in Chapter Black, Sensui thought demons were better than humans.
I think Koenma said "super A class", now that I think about it. Not super S class. Regardless, that term was only used once and then never again for the rest of Chapter Black onward. My guess is that it's something the dub decided to throw in, and a rather silly addition too. S class is all that's above A class, and it essentially categorizes demons that the Spirit World can't handle.
I like the sense of honor that exists in Demon World, and the decision to make it a futuristic but also primitive world run by kings living in kingdoms. However, at the same time, I do still kind of prefer the idea of Demon World that they give off in Chapter Black. At that point, it's just this savage unknown world and we have no idea what it's like, except that it's something to be feared above anything else. And I especially like the way Koenma described it, like an infinite series of basements that go deeper and deeper, and the lower you get the more dangerous the world gets (and how Koenma mentions that, out of all that, they only control half of the first basement). The actual Demon World really wasn't much like that. Guess that goes with the idea that nothing can really live up to your imagination.
Had the series ended with Chapter Black, Demon World would have been left like that, and all we would have seen of it was that small piece of land on the other side of the tunnel, where that plateau is located that Sensui fights Kuwabara, Kurama, and Hiei on. But being that the story continued, they went the best direction they could've gone.
I'll have to disagree with that. Having Demon World be as savage and barren place in general would be the 1-dimensional generic thing to do. And it also wouldn't make much sense given how many smart demons we had already seen in the series. Making it a world with a civil order and kingdoms and such that paralleled many of the concepts of our own world was more unique and ingenious, and it's part of Togashi's trademark writing style that makes him stand out. It also fits much in line with the whole message of the Chapter Black arc, that you can't really separate humans and demons as black and white polar opposites. There are both good humans and demons, and also ones that are complete scumbags, so it only makes sense that there are also plenty of civilized and orderly demons in their own dimension. It would be alright to have savage and scary demons that exist within that world, but having a whole world like that would be a rather boring concept in the long-run, IMO.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on January 19, 2014, 04:05:44 PM
I'll have to disagree with that. Having Demon World be as savage and barren place in general would be the 1-dimensional generic thing to do. And it also wouldn't make much sense given how many smart demons we had already seen in the series. Making it a world with a civil order and kingdoms and such that paralleled many of the concepts of our own world was more unique and ingenious, and it's part of Togashi's trademark writing style that makes him stand out. It also fits much in line with the whole message of the Chapter Black arc, that you can't really separate humans and demons as black and white polar opposites. There are both good humans and demons, and also ones that are complete scumbags, so it only makes sense that there are also plenty of civilized and orderly demons in their own dimension. It would be alright to have savage and scary demons that exist within that world, but having a whole world like that would be a rather boring concept in the long-run, IMO.
In a way, I agree with what you say here. Making a story arc out of a big world of mindless chaos wouldn't be as interesting. However, what I was mainly trying to say was that I preferred when we really hadn't seen much of Demon World. It was shrouded in mystery, but all we knew was that it was dangerous and that the tunnel to Demon World must not be opened. From there, the characters as, well as the viewers, can imagine what it could be like themselves. Before we learned what it's really like, I think Demon World was really interesting as an idea.
But being that they did decide to flesh it out and clear up that mystery, I think Togashi did an excellent job and took it in the best possible direction he could've. So I agree with all of your points there.
I changed my mind. I really like the feeling of fear and mystery that they instill into you with the concept of Demon World in Chapter Black. But I prefer the idea of them fleshing it out with more humanity. That initial feeling would've worked had the series ended with Chapter Black. But the fact is, they didn't. And I didn't necessarily want them to (well, it would've been a great ending, but my ideal ending is still a war, anyway).
HXH made me think about this - was the only time all 4 of the main characters in YYH fought alongside each other once or twice during The Saint Beasts arc?
Quote from: gunswordfist on January 22, 2014, 01:35:11 AM
HXH made me think about this - was the only time all 4 of the main characters in YYH fought alongside each other once or twice during The Saint Beasts arc?
I'm not really sure what you're asking. They fought together nearly the whole show.
He means at the same time. Not in one-on-one battles with the other characters commentating on the sidelines.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on January 22, 2014, 03:50:44 PM
He means at the same time. Not in one-on-one battles with the other characters commentating on the sidelines.
Ah. In that case, I can't think of any moment where all four of them fought together. The closest they came was Kuwabara, Kurama, Hiei fighting those zombie people in Maze Castle, and Sensui in Demon World. I vaguely remember them fighting together maybe a few times in one of the movies, but I might be wrong about that.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on January 22, 2014, 03:50:44 PM
He means at the same time. Not in one-on-one battles with the other characters commentating on the sidelines.
:D Typical Shonen.
I was thinking about the movie too. I believe they only fought as a team at the end. Man was that main villain ridiculously overpowered. He was literally invincible and a reality alterer but the moron decided to pull out his source of power for no reason. What an idiot.
Umm, anyway, only Kazuma, Hiei and Kurama fought sensui at the same time. Yusuke fought him separately. He's probably the only common opponent they all share. I think the closest was...Hiei before that, lol Well unless you don't count Hiei and Kuwabara's "fights"
So I think these are my overall favorite Yu Yu Hakusho songs, and in this order.
Smile Bomb http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67hnY1PLkdE
I'm kind of obligated to put this at #1, but it probably is the best Yu Yu Hakusho song. And I don't think that's just pure nostalgia, but admittedly I do have a lot of nostalgia for it. I vividly remember when I was young and watching this show on Adult Swim and hearing this song, finding it funny how it seemed to not have much to do with the actual show. I also remember Adult Swim airing a marathon of Genkai's Tournament, and my brought and I, immature as we were, found it funny to blast the volume as loud as it can possibly get whenever during the opening theme. We probably thought it was funny because it was 12:00 AM at night. But yeah. Like I said, I do actually like this song beyond nostalgia. I especially like the second verse of the song onward (which ironically is the part that isn't in the show's opening). That's the part that really seems to make me think back to everything the characters went through over the course of the show, perhaps because it makes me think of the ending credits of the final episode. Very good idea to play this song in show's ending.
Sayonara wa Iwanai http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5XQICACzGw
Might be the odd choice because I'm picking a song that really isn't part of the show. This is the theme of the movie, Poltergeist Report. Now that movie was okay, not really bad but not necessarily all that good. However, I really liked this song from the first time I heard it, I have no trouble calling it my favorite part of that movie, and the song I like more than the majority of the Yu Yu Hakusho songs. There's just something really nice about it, from the melody to the energy in the singing. That about sums it up.
Daydream Generation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8_cZGskQAE
My favorite ending theme was always The Sun will Shine Again. But I think I've come to see this one as my favorite. And I connect that to the feel of this show's ending. I have to say about the Demon World Tournament. As much as I don't really like it, there is one single thing about it that I really do like a lot. There's a real feeling of harmony to it, like everyone is finding peace and is happy fighting each other. Call it corny, but I just liked that aspect of it. There was a feeling of joy hanging over it. I liked that, if nothing else. And this ending theme captures that same joyful feeling. There is also a bit of a sad feeling to it, though. In the animation for this song, all of the characters are seen, and watching it I tend to be reminded that the series is coming to an end. I felt like that when I was watching the Demon World Tournament for the first time, and I still tend to get those feelings when I rewatch the series now.
So I was recently thinking, and it has really hit me that, after the first arc, Botan becomes nearly useless. And I think this is particularly painful for her because I already found her to be sort of annoying.
This is unfortunate because I think she's not only very likable in the first season, but she was important. I'd argue she was the second most important character of the first season. She was upbeat and a bit ditsy, but it was always kept in check. And she always had something to contribute. She eased Yusuke into his detective role and gave him his tools, she protected Kayko while Yusuke was fighting with Hiei, and she even stood up to Gouki. She also took care of the city while Yusuke's crew was dealing with Maze Castle, and I don't think I need to mention how important she was to the first few episodes where Yusuke was a ghost. Even in Genkai's tournament, where she really couldn't do anything, she always had something important and good to say.
I'd say the shift occurred in the Rescue Yukina story. She kind of just went along with Yusuke and Kuwabara for the ride. But it's especially noticeable in the next three seasons. I struggle to think of many important things she did from the Dark Tournament onward. Even Kayko at least had more character moments in them. Botan just acts silly and tries to backtalk the announcer Koto when she was just doing her job. She wasn't needed when the crew went into the House of Four Dimensions. In fact, she practically said the word "hot" the moment they walked into the house, before Kurama caught her. Then Koenma put her in charge of the group when they went to Demon's Door Cave, though I fail to see why because she still didn't do anything. They even left her outside when the rest of the group went into the cave because she was useless. In fact, of the 90 or so episodes that followed Maze Castle, the only things I can remember her contributing were finding Hiei at the beginning of Chapter Black and then convincing him to join the group when they went to rescue Yusuke.
Even in the last episode of the entire series, when all of the characters are coming together one last time, Botan feels like a side note. They even introduce her that way. She just sort of pops up into the group after everyone has already been reunited. 100 episodes prior, it's something you'd never expect to be done with her.
So yeah, that's what I think. The character of Botan is really one of my only problems with this series. I feel like, for the most part, the four moral support girls don't have that much character. But Botan in particularly just doesn't do anything for me after the first 20 episodes. She just sort of meows a lot and acts dumb as a way to get some laugh, but I just find her to be sort of irritating instead. Maybe I'm alone with this opinion, because Botan never struck me as a character that people dislike. But I really can't think of much more she offered after the first season.
(https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/t1/995842_699189650125168_24356367_n.jpg)
These may be the best valentine's greetings ever.
Please tell me that those are real. :swoon:
According to the original FB post, yes. These are actual, unofficial e-cards you can give to people.
Sage Reviews Poiltergeist Report: http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/bt/the-sage/anime-abandon/42679-yu-yu-hakusho-poltergeist-report
I still can't stand Sage as a reviewer, but this one video was kind of amusing, mainly because he used the dub to review this, and as you can see, the jokes practically write themselves with this one.
It's been nearly 2 years since I last watched any of this series. On a whim I started re-watching some of the Chapter Black arc, which I've already re-watched at least a dozen or so times, and goddamn does it still impress the hell out of me to this day. I just love the whole central theme of how a black and white sense of morality is just not possible for a Spirit Detective to have. That sort of ideology leads to twisted as fuck results when one realizes that essentially there is never always a true right and wrong, and good and evil. Hence why the morally gray Yusuke (at least more-so than his direct predecessor) makes a more fitting Spirit Detective than Sensui, despite Sensui's clear talent as both a fighter and a tactician.
The writing here is so strong. I've seen plenty of great manga and anime and shows in general since I was a fan of YYH, and my opinion on what's great and not so great have changed immensely over the years, but the Chapter Black arc still constantly remains to be my favorite story arc in all of animation, by far.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on May 25, 2014, 04:21:15 PM
It's been nearly 2 years since I last watched any of this series. On a whim I started re-watching some of the Chapter Black arc, which I've already re-watched at least a dozen or so times, and goddamn does it still impress the hell out of me to this day. I just love the whole central theme of how a black and white sense of morality is just not possible for a Spirit Detective to have. That sort of ideology leads to twisted as fuck results when one realizes that essentially there is never always a true right and wrong, and good and evil. Hence why the morally gray Yusuke (at least more-so than his direct predecessor) makes a more fitting Spirit Detective than Sensui, despite Sensui's clear talent as both a fighter and a tactician.
I would say it isn't the idea of black and white itself that is wrong for a Spirit Detective to have, it's that Sensui is completely unable to understand that black and white is more than just sides. No different than thinking that particularly bad representatives of a country/religion/race/political party/organization means they are all bad people who deserve punishment or extermination. The fact is that it's about judging individuals by their actions and judging accordingly. Sensui couldn't do that, because it was easier to deal in absolutes and simply wipe out everyone he didn't like.
Yusuke clearly has a sense of justice, and knows how warped Sensui's thinking is.
All in all, I think it's still the best thing Togashi's written.
I believe Sensui's source of talent for the job really had a lot to do with his viewpoints. It was easy to believe that demons were all evil and humans were all good, and since he had been recruited as a child, you really get a sense that he grew up with a very naive and limited perspective of the world. He was so utterly focused on killing evil that he never really stopped to consider what being evil truly meant. That's why his mind just flat-out couldn't take it when he ran into the Black Black Club and learned that there were indeed humans as sick and evil as many of the demons he had killed.
Yusuke may not have been a genius at the job like Sensui was, but he was a more balanced person. While not a saint by any means, he had a sense of morality but also understood that there were always exceptions to everything, and that the world wasn't full of just simple black and white. In that regard, he was much better fit for the job than Sensui ever was.
And yes, this is the best story arc that Togashi has ever written. It utterly baffles me that there are so many YYH fans who completely miss the point of this arc and claim that it is the worst. Those are the action junkies, mostly, though. It really irks me that a huge chunk of this series's fan-base are just the typical battle shounen fans who don't give two shits about the interesting themes that lie beyond the action.
Yusuke knew good and evil and had met them both. Sensui gave off the impression that he knew neither, just that he was fighting the bad guys which made him the good guy. While Sensui was smart and manipulative, it was fairly obvious that he wasn't right for the job, but then he was so charismatic he was probably really good at hiding it.
The only thing Sensui "learned" from watching the tape was that he was on the wrong "side" and that the humans were the bad guys. He didn't learn that his genocidal views were completely off-kilter.
Yusuke had just gone through the Dark Tournament and met folks like Jin and Chuu, and was already friends with Kurama and Hiei, not to mention his friendship with Kuwabara, his mast Genkai, and the psychics he met at the arc's beginning. There were bad demons like team Toguro and several of their opponents, but there were also bad humans like Sakyo, not to mention Tarukane from the previous story, who were just as ruthless as the worst demons.
Actually, I bet if Sensui went through any of the things Yusuke did, his solution would have been to wipe them ALL out. If there was nobody left but him, then surely he would be the good guy, right? ;)
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on May 26, 2014, 12:52:34 PM
Actually, I bet if Sensui went through any of the things Yusuke did, his solution would have been to wipe them ALL out. If there was nobody left but him, then surely he would be the good guy, right? ;)
Heh, now I want to see a Sensui Destroy The World movie.
I was just re-reading my top 10 episodes list from several pages back. Yep, I think it still holds up, and my favorite episode back then is still my favorite one now.
Seeing this week's episode of HXH with the great send-off that Meruem had mad me realize that despite that series' faults, Togashi is just as good story writing villains as ever. Sensui was his pinnacle, IMO, but he has a diverse array of villains that are so unique from each other. Meruem in particular was by far his most interesting villain from a character development standpoint, since he was no longer a villain by the end of his arc, and it became possible to sympathize with a guy who was nothing more than a Monster when he was born.
At any rate, I just wish that more shounen would write 3-dimensional villains like this. Even a lot of shounen that I like such as JoJo, Magi, and One Piece, while having memorable villains, still have ones that are 1-dimensionally evil in their goals. I mean, YYH is over 2 decades old now, and it still somehow seems more cutting edge with it's fleshed out character arcs for its villains as opposed to just about any modern shounen.
Yeah, I loathed Meruem as a character for most of his original appearances until he met Komugi. Then he started to get more interesting until he finally lost the will do even be evil and wanted to just be normal. It was a pretty good character turn that saved him from being one of Togashi's worst into being one of his best.
I've been thinking about it recently, and do you guys know what else (besides the obvious) is so damn good about the Chapter Black arc? When you think about it, you come to realize that Sensui was really more disadvantaged than the heroes. Think of how many story-lines in other manga, comics, anime, and cartoons use the typical villains more powerful or significantly smarter than the good guys trope. I can't stand those scenarios where the villain goes "all according to plan" no matter what the hero does, or in other cases they fight off the heroes like it's nothing, because for them it really is.
Now think of Sensui and his group. First off, yes, Sensui had a grand plan, but it was hardly fool proof. He had to make a lot of assumptions and adjust his plans on the fly. Most telling is that aside from his (heavily implied) lover, the rest of the psychics weren't completely loyal to him, and he was mostly just manipulating them to his cause. So he had to be prepared for some potentially turning against him, like Seaman and such. Also, neither him nor his psychics were capable of physically beating any of Yusuke's main group, with the possible exception of Elder Toguro, in a traditional power battle. This includes Sensui himself, who was physically and spiritually weaker than Yusuke EXCEPT for his Shinobu persona, which he couldn't use until the Kekai barrier was open since Shinobu had to be devoid of sin, and he was doing some pretty sinful shit in order to execute his plan. But, literally, Yusuke's group could probably kill most of these guys with a single punch, and yet they were constantly kept at bay through clever on the fly strategies and tactics of deception.
In this arc, the villains are really the underdogs in this confrontation, and you can't help but admire how effective they are at gaining the advantage by doing stuff like playing on the characteristics and emotions of the heroes, and cleverly positioning them where they want them to be, while still having to adjust from time to time if things don't go their way, and even then they eventually lose, but still manage to contribute to helping Sensui's goal in some way.
When Sensui finally manages to reach his goal, I'm honestly kind of satisfied for the guy, which is such an odd feeling, but by all rights he has earned it fair and square. You never get the sense that the heroes never had a chance of stopping him, but rather that Sensui was a much better tactician, yet hardly perfect in his own right.
I wish that more story-lines in general could go in a similar route. I just find it so much more interesting to read and watch. When the heroes are at the initial advantage, and they end up losing out to the villains on multiple occasions, it's not because the writing makes the villains overpowered or unrealistically smart, but rather that the villains as characters manage to cleverly exploit weaknesses in the hero team to slowly gain the advantage for themselves. It's easily Togashi's best writing, IMO.
that reminds me of how kaito would have been an absolute terror to them if sensui didn't plan accordingly. he's pretty much the most powerful yyh character.
I want me this Puu plushie. (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2014-12-05/yu-yu-hakusho-gets-a-large-fluffy-puu/.81775)
I would totally waste tons of money on a crane game if those were in American arcades....
I definitely want Puu, as well. Imagine a Puu pillow pet!
And are those can badges things like Pogs? If so, YYH is back, in Pog form.
Is there any word on whether or not the second movie has been acquired by FUNimation?
Not to my recollection, no.
If there was any news on it, I'd assume that someone would've posted about it by now. Honestly, though, it wouldn't make much financial sense for FUNi to spend valuable money, time, and resources on licensing and dubbing a 20+ year old movie for a 90's anime that was only moderately successful for them about a decade ago, and which hasn't been a big deal in the North American anime fan community for quite some time, now; especially considering that even most fans just find it to be a mediocre movie at best.
Personally, I just don't see it ever happening.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on February 11, 2015, 04:06:28 PM
If there was any news on it, I'd assune that someone would've posted about it by now. Honestly, though, it wouldn't make much financial sense for FUNi to spend valuable money, time, and resources on licensing and dubbing a 20+ year old movie for a 90's anime that was only moderately successful for them about a decade ago, and which hasn't been a big deal in the North American anime fan community for quite some time, now; especially considering that even most fans just find it to be a mediocre movie at best.
Personally, I just don't see it ever happening.
But they did dub the 30 minute movie. I'm not really expecting them to do it, but I do think it's possible.
don't expect lightning to strike twice in one spot, grasshopper.
and y'all are referring to poltergeist report, right?
That 30-minute movie was released as bonus content to the rest of the Eizou Hakusho OVA content, and on top of being easier to produce a dub for at such a short length, would not have been a hassle to license because it was owned by Studio Pierrot and Shueisha.
Poultrrgeist report is a feature-length movie, and co-owned by Toho, one of the biggest and oldest film companies in Japan. It'd be considerably more expensive to license, and to dub, and the movie itself probably wouldn't make enough sales to justify the effort.
It's a shame, really. As indifferent as I was toward that movie (the theme song was the only part that really stuck with me), I would gladly watch it a second time just to see it with the classic FUNimation voices.
I'd probably bite as well, for the same reason, but I wouldn't spend more than $10 on it.
i agree, talon, well except i like a few things about the movie but we don't need me to reiterate what those are. :sly:
i'd use the library.
That's kind of like what I'm doing with their dub of the first movie. I'd like to see it, but I'm waiting for it to be priced lower.
Speaking of which, I can't seem to find that on Blu-Ray. Only on DVD.
I don't think they've released a blu-ray release of it yet.
This is a bit old, but I figured I'd post it here anyway.
Fan AMV of Smile Bomb (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlk7AzBMmOA)
A nice treat for YYH fans.
Man, I still love this freaking show. If I could ever break down a Top Twenty favorite TV Shows of all time, Yu Yu Hakusho would definitely have permanent slot in it. While the art and animation are a bit dated now, the writing always makes it hold up. I could never ever be sick of this show.
Quote from: Peanutbutter on July 07, 1974, 04:53:00 AMMan, I still love this freaking show. If I could ever break down a Top Twenty favorite TV Shows of all time, Yu Yu Hakusho would definitely have permanent slot in it. While the art and animation are a bit dated now, the writing always makes it hold up. I could never ever be sick of this show.
:thumbup:
I've seen better animated shows, from an objective standpoint, but this is still my favorite of all time.
Though, I will say that Chapter Black is objectively one of the best story arcs that I've ever seen.
What would you call better shows, E-K?
In general, I prefer not to apply objective standpoints, but I will admit there is certainly a point where superiority is factual. The Room, for example, is a poorly made film. And that's that. :D
There are a lot of shows that are animated better. But YYH benefits from strong direction which never gets dated.
When I say objectively better I mean shows that had more consistent runs, better animation, and/or are accessible to more people in general.
Stuff like:
Cowboy Bebop
Trigun
Madoka Magica
The Woman Called Fujiko Mine
Legend of the Galactic Heroes
Mobile Suit Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket
And in Western Animation:
Gargoyles
The Spectacular Spider-Man
Batman: The Animated Series
And those are just some examples. I could recommend those shows to almost anyone and a large chunk of people would enjoy them on both a casual level and a critical, analytical level. Comparatively, a 40+ episode tournament arc, multi-episode fights, inconsistent animation, and a relatively weak final arc would be a hard sell for a lot of people who don't already like shonen.
Despite all of that, it is my favorite animated show of all time.
When it comes to my favorites, I find the objective quality of something is not nearly as important as how much I get out of it on a personal, emotional level. All my favorite shows tend to really mean or represent something to me beyond just being really entertaining, well-written, and well-done. Even if something else might be objectively better, a flawed show that strikes me in a truly intimate way is just going to mean more to me than a more consistent series that doesn't elicit quite as strong a reaction from me, even if I really like or even love that show too.
I feel exactly the same way, hence why YYH and AnJ2 are my favorite animated series ever.
Quote from: Cartoon X on February 17, 2015, 10:12:19 PM
When it comes to my favorites, I find the objective quality of something is not nearly as important as how much I get out of it on a personal, emotional level.
Yep.
lol, july 1974.
and i agree with pb.
i need to get around to finishing the episode and two halfs of chapter black i have missed.
I just don't see how we can determine what's "objectively" better. I mean, art is subjective. Who is to say that The Godfather is a better film than Vertigo, or vice versa? Yu Yu Hakusho is a high quality product. As is Cowboy Bebop. Determining which of those is better is up to opinion.
This isn't necessarily in response to your response to me, E-K. I wholly agree with you in saying that the shows you listed are more consistent and accessible... at least, the shows you listed that I've seen. I should get back to Galactic Heroes.
I just realized that this December will mark YYH's 25th anniversary. Technically that applies to the manga, but I'd say that it counts for the entire property. I should probably plan a write-up around that when the time comes.
Heh, really? Well, this will make my new plan for here an even better idea now. .3.
Yeah. I can't wait for "that" plan. :humhumhum:
:o Now I'm curious.
Well, I'll just let Avaitor bring it up whenever he's ready.
Wasn't sure if this should go here or in the video game thread...
Did any of you guys play any of the YYH video games? I think I played all three that were released in North America. Dark Tournament, for the PS2, I recognize isn't a very good fighting game. I mostly just have nostalgia attached to it. I do like this menu theme, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH0M35QxVA4
Other than that, Tournament Tactics is a mediocre tacical RPG. Spirit Detective is a downright terrible game.
What would you guys call the top best fights in the series?
So far, every Dark Tournament Final fight, excluding Kuwabara's.
I loved that scene from Kuwabara's fight where Elder Toguro mocks (the then dead) Genkai right in front of him. It's a really sick and twisted scene for him and a great emotional moment for Kuwabara.
As for favorite fights, I'd go with Team Urameshi vs. Team Masho as my favorite "traditional" set of fights, as it was filled with an intense sense of desperation as Team Urameshi was at a disadvantage the entire time and were forced to use clever strategy to prevail.
My favorite "psychological" fight is Yusuke vs. Doctor.
My favorite "emotional" fight is Yusuke vs. Younger Toguro in the DT finals.
My favorite "personal grudge" fight is Kurama vs. "Gourmet" (I'm listing the alias to avoid spoilers).
Those are my personal favorite fights in the series, each for very different reasons.
I loved that part of the Kuwabara fight as well, plus the talk Kuwabara had with Yusuke the fight that led up to Toguro fight. Beautifully done.
My all time favorite "fight" in the series is Kurama's word game with Kaito, which is also firmly my favorite episode/moment in the entire series. Outside of that, I also love the fights with Team Uratogi, Team Toguro, Yusuke vs. Doctor, Game Master, & Kurama vs. "Gourmet."
The Doctor Vs. Yusuke.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on February 26, 2015, 04:16:12 PM
Wasn't sure if this should go here or in the video game thread...
Did any of you guys play any of the YYH video games? I think I played all three that were released in North America. Dark Tournament, for the PS2, I recognize isn't a very good fighting game. I mostly just have nostalgia attached to it. I do like this menu theme, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH0M35QxVA4
Other than that, Tournament Tactics is a mediocre tacical RPG. Spirit Detective is a downright terrible game.
Try the Genesis game by Treasure.
By Sega Genesis...sorry, been watching too much Fresh Prince.
Quote from: gunswordfist on March 20, 2015, 05:02:53 PM
By Sega Genesis...sorry, been watching too much Fresh Prince.
Sega did not make Mortal Kombat.
Quote from: Cartoon X on March 20, 2015, 04:45:05 PMMy all time favorite "fight" in the series is Kurama's word game with Kaito, which is also firmly my favorite episode/moment in the entire series. Outside I that, I also love the fights with Team Uratogi, Team Toguro, Yusuke vs. Doctor, Game Master, & Kurama vs. "Gourmet."
Shit, I forgot about Kaito. Yeah, that one too.
I do love the Dark Tournament finals, with the slight exception of Hiei vs Bui.
My favorite overall is Yusuke against Toguro, followed closely by his fight with Sensui. I also love his fights with doctor and Chu, and Kuwabara's with Elder Toguro.
If it counts, the battle with Kaito's also up there.
Quote from: talonmalon333 on March 20, 2015, 11:48:02 PM
I do love the Dark Tournament finals, with the slight exception of Hiei vs Bui.
My favorite overall is Yusuke against Toguro, followed closely by his fight with Sensui. I also love his fights with doctor and Chu, and Kuwabara's with Elder Toguro.
If it counts, the battle with Kaito's also up there.
Weirdo.
Bui is just kind of a weak character once he removed his armor.
:-\
What do y'all think is the best arc for main protagonist? My list:
Yusuke - Dark Tournament
Genkai - Dark Tournament, easy
Kurama - Chapter Black
Koenma - Chapter Black
Hiei - Three Kings, easily
Kuwabara - Hard to say. It might even be Spirit Detective. It's between that, Dark Tournament and Chapter Black, imo.
Keiko - Spirit Detective. Thinking about Kuwara and SD made me decide to list her.
Botan - Spirit Detective. And she's listed because of my writing about Keiko. :bleh:
Do you mean their best character development in any specific arc? If that's the case, then:
Yusuke- Chapter Black
Kuwabara- Chapter Black
Kurama- Three Kings (anime version only)
Hiei- Three Kings (anime version only)
Genkai- Dark Tournament
Koenma- Chapter Black
Botan- Dark Tournament
Keiko- Spirit Detective
Yusuke: Chapter Black
Kuwabara: Chapter Black
Kurama: Three Kings
Hiei: Three Kings
Genkai: Dark Tournament
Koenma: Chapter Black
Botan: Spirit Detective
Keiko: Spirit Detective
I'll go:
Yusuke - Three Kings (anime-version)
Kuwabara - Chapter Black
Kurama - Three Kings (anime-version)
Hiei - Three Kings (anime-version)
Genkai - Dark Tournament
Koenma - Chapter Black
Botan - Spirit Detective
Keiko - Spirit Detective
That and which arc do you think they shined the most.
Hmm, Botan was great in Dark Tournament. I'm surprised you didn't pick Kurama in Chapter Black.
My favorite Kurama episode is in Chapter Black. However, Three Kings is much more integral to his character arc.
Good point.
Kurama's cool but Hiei is my favorite character. I actually got to meet Chuck Huber at HOT Con last Friday and get an autograph from him. I also told him I hope there will be a new YuYu Hakusho film someday since Dragon Ball got Battle of Gods and we both hope that there will be a new dub of the one YYH film that hasn't been licensed by Funimation yet. He also did the "Dragon of the Darkness Flame!" but said flame quietly since he didn't want to "destroy the place!" LMAO!
Yeah, Chuck Huber does a great job as Hiei (among many other roles that he's done, including Emperor Pilaf from Dragon Ball). I'll actually be commenting on his voice-acting as early as tomorrow night when we resume our weekly YYH discussions, as well as Kurama's.
Which dub voice would you guys say improved the most as the series went on?
Couldn't tell you. Maybe I need to rewatch the show.
Hiei. He went from insane over the top villain to quiet calculator since the Jagan Eye was no longer messing with him and Chuck Huber improved with the character during the change.
Toguro also improved quite a bit. In later episodes he has nasty quality to his voice that he didn't have in his first few episodes.
Sort of branching off the topic in the other YYH thread.
I'm still unsure why Togashi made Hiei and Kurama A class before the series. It didn't really better their character and actually kind of conflicted with things, especially considering we saw Yoko in the Dark Tournament.
I think we may have talked about Yoko being A class during Dark Tournament. It's not impossible, even if that would mean he was stronger than Toguro. Hmm...once I think about, I suspected that Togashi made them canonically A-class pre-series as a part of how half-assed Three Kings was. That was never mentioned until after Chapter Black, right?
It was only a limited time transformation in the Dark Tournament, though. It wouldn't have done them much good if it wasn't at least as strong as Karasu. So whether it was only a small amount of time as an A rank or B Rank doesn't really make much difference in the end.
Making them an A-rank before the beginning of the series doesn't conflict with anything, though.
In Hiei's case, Togashi retconned his backstory so that it's explained that the Jagan significantly weakened him.
In Kurama's case, he had no controlled, surefire way to become Yoko Kurama, and at that his transformations were only temporary. Furthermore, it's not really a stretch to assume that Kurama didn't unlock his full powers as Yoko by using artificial means to regain that form of his. If you've ever read another comic book in your life, especially from the 90's, vague and not clearly defined uses of powers and abilities were pretty much the norm.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on March 24, 2015, 01:59:48 PM
If you've ever read another comic book in your life, especially from the 90's, vague and not clearly defined uses of powers and abilities were pretty much the norm.
You must be familiar with Marvel comics. :sly:
Kurama couldn't access his powers as Yoko Kurama before the Dark Tournament, and even then it was only via Suzuki's potion that he could consciously manifest them to some degree. I assumed the potion only allowed Kurama to tap into some of Yoko's strength, but not quite all of it, and the final push for him to finally access his full power was seeing Yusuke die in CB.
Him transforming in Chapter Black is probably my favorite transformation in the entire series.
The potion didn't really unlock Yoko, though. It operated the same way as the Idunn Box, which essentially turns back the clock on a person's life (at least, in the dub they say it works the same way, but someone correct me if the manga says otherwise). If it brought him back in time to his Yoko life, back to when he was A class, I figure he would be that through the use of the potion.
Then again, I suppose it does add up if you assume that Yoko was basically playing with Karasu, and that he could've killed him at any moment if he wanted to.
Good point. Signs do point to Yoko being at full power. I still think that he wasn't considered A class until a retcon in 3 Kings. In Chapter Black, I think Kurama got mad enough to the point where his Yoko became A class then it was changed to where he wasn't always that strong.
I didn't remember that detail, honestly. I guess Yoko was really just screwing around with Karasu.
..Yeah, he kind of was. I don't think A class vs. B class means instant death...but then about Yoko is brutal as hell (and Kurama can be too) so yeah, he was pretty much playing with his food, regardless of class.
Quote from: gunswordfist on March 25, 2015, 02:43:09 PM
..Yeah, he kind of was. I don't think A class vs. B class means instant death...but then about Yoko is brutal as hell (and Kurama can be too) so yeah, he was pretty much playing with his food, regardless of class.
Toguro wasn't A class and he could've killed Yusuke at any moment, at least before Yusuke tapped into his full power.
Remember that the classes aren't based on pure power but ability and potential. Toguro said his only talent was changing his muscles and appearance which is pretty devastating up to a certain level before he would have to fight someone that relies on more than physical strength like the A and S classes who would destroy him with crazier techniques. It's not like Dragon Ball Z's power levels where there are hard numbers.
Let's also not forget that Kurama said when he was Yoko Kurama that he was cocky and arrogant, which showed in spades against Karasu. His old self almost got him killed because he fooled around against Karasu which ended up being Team Uremeshi's only loss against Team Toguro.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 25, 2015, 03:25:19 PMIt's not like Dragon Ball Z's power levels where there are hard numbers.
Actually, even power levels in DBZ, hard numbers and all, ultimately don't mean that much aside from a general estimation of a character's power (rather than their actual fighting skill). A lot of people assume that the point of power levels was to gauge how strong a character was. In that case they're missing the point. The intention was that they were in fact useless against Goku and company, who could both mask their power levels, and also naturally sense an opponent's true power. If you pay attention, characters who judge their opponents based on power levels often underestimate them and can still lose to a good strategy or teamwork used against them.
Also don't forget that power levels were never used in the earlier half of DB, and were never used again after Trunks appears in the very beginning of the Cell saga. There's a reason for that, and when people ever try to bring up power levels as hard evidence for any argument about the series, I feel the need to explain why they really are not, and quite frankly don't mean as much as people assume that they do.
Guys. I have a question that needs answering.
Mind Control is the ability to control both mind and body. Mind Imprisonment(think of Naruto's Itachi using genjutsu or the effects of Kurama's sinning tree) controls and alters thoughts by sending illusions to the victim. Now the common thinking would be that since Mind Control has both control of mind and body and through mind control you can also perform the same feats as mind imprisonment mind control would be a stronger form of telepathy. It seems that some fail to share my view. Let's here your opinions on which you think is more powerful. Mind Control or Mind Imprisonment?
Goku could instant transmission Superman into the sun but it wouldn't kill him. Besides, the two of them would be friends, anyway.
Quote from: Foggle on March 25, 2015, 04:34:29 PM
Guys. I have a question that needs answering.
Mind Control is the ability to control both mind and body. Mind Imprisonment(think of Naruto's Itachi using genjutsu or the effects of Kurama's sinning tree) controls and alters thoughts by sending illusions to the victim. Now the common thinking would be that since Mind Control has both control of mind and body and through mind control you can also perform the same feats as mind imprisonment mind control would be a stronger form of telepathy. It seems that some fail to share my view. Let's here your opinions on which you think is more powerful. Mind Control or Mind Imprisonment?
Ask KOP. :sly:
I'm so happy that I get this. :D
And lmao to the dumbass who would fight Superman and have it transform into All-Star.
I wanted to comment on this, but it would have counted as spoilers in the other YYH thread so I'm posting it here.
I think something that's funny is that Maze Castle is the only part of the series that truly adheres to that unwritten rule of one on one fights... Now, of course, those fights take place all throughout the series, but they always have a clear purpose. Like, in the Dark Tournament, they make sense because it's, well, a tournament where one on one is a typical rule. Same thing with the Demon World Tournament. But in the Rescue Yukina story, Yusuke and Kuwabara always fight together with the example of the first Triad fighter, and the reason Kuwabara stayed out of that fight was because he didn't want to hit a girl. As for Yusuke's fight with Sensui, it was one on one because Itsuki captured the other three to avoid them ganging up on Sensui, and once they were released, all three of them launched a full scale attack. Maze Castle is the only part of the series I can think of where they fight one on one "because honor".
EDIT:
Well, I guess there was Yusuke's first fight against Sensui in the city. But even then, it wasn't really a one on one fight. It was more like Yusuke going out first to feel out Sensui's powers. Once that was done, Kurama and Kuwabara tried to jump in before they were all separated.
Yep, that might be one of the reasons that the arc doesn't work well for me. If all four of them ganged up on every enemy, the arc would have been done in like two episodes.
Granted, there was a story reason that Yusuke fought alone but the others really didn't need to. Kuwabara in particular made one fight last near three episodes (since after all that he STILL didn't beat him) when there was no reason for them to waste so much time.
Thankfully, it's the only point in the series with this issue.
True they were on a time limit but the real reason was to have a showcase for everyone. I don't care what anyone says, Maze Castle is good. :bleh:
Quote from: gunswordfist on May 04, 2015, 04:02:11 PM
Maze Castle is good. :bleh:
I agree. But I'm used to, at the very least least, "very good" from YYH.
True but things get much better right afterwards. I don't think it kills the show's momentum or anything because that was the team's first mission and every other one is greater.
So because of the recent thread I finally got my hands on Eizou Hakusho + the Movie package that Funi put out.
I gotta say, the movie was a lot of fun despite basically being an episode from the show. But since I like episodes from the show, it was quite enjoyable. It was also nice hearing the original dub cast for it as well. Mu Mu Hakusho was bizarre and the Dark Tournament stuff was cute. The anti-piracy warnings are hysterical, too. Overall it's a great little package for fans of the show. If you're not a big fan, however, I can't see you getting nearly as much out of it.
It is a shame that it's missing the other movie, but it is a very good package nonetheless. I don't think they had to go out of their way to make this, but I'm glad they did.
Yusuke: "You know you're not supposed to be throwing this stuff up online, right? Save that for Kuwabara's crappy-ass Megallica music, OK? Those guys can afford it." :D
The package wasn't really made for a real profit, but was a clear love-letter to hardcore fans, and shows you just how much FUNi respects and cares about the series despite it being well past its prime in terms of popularity. I wouldn't recommend it to any casual fans, of course, but I'm really glad to see that FUNi put in the effort to bring this rather obscure OVA package stateside. This is what separates FUNi from Aniplex. They actually care about the fans of the series that they put out, even niche fan-bases, because they are fans themselves.
Yeah, I still need to get that package (waiting for a Blu-Ray release). I would be great if FUNimation could also get the other movie someday.
I'm not sure if there's much point to releasing it on Blu-Ray since the Japanese versions would have to have been restored frame by frame like the series itself had been. This release is purely the Funimation staff cobbling together all this extra material for release. Apparently they had some issues because they couldn't dub the music portion of the set due to rights issues as it is.
All in all, I would recommend it to anyone on this board as it is. The content for fans is more than worth it.
My brother has been showing a friend of ours this series, and I've watched a good chunk of it with them. Currently, they are at the second round of the tournament. Just a few thoughts I feel like mentioning.
The Spirit Detective arc is good, but I was kind of just waiting for the Dark Tournament the whole time. It's just so much better.
The Saint Beasts mission has not held up well. You guys have already talked to death about this one, but as I revisit that part, I can definitely see it. I feel like Yu Yu Hakusho really makes cliches feel fresh and new, but the Saint Beasts mission makes them feel like, well, makes them feel like cliches.
I also think Yusuke's fight against the first member of the Triad, Miyuki (not sure about the spelling there), shows its age. But the theme of "I'll fight you because you're in our way" still holds strong, and the Rescue Yukina portion is just so great as a whole.
The Blu-Ray episode look nice and crisp, and they actually added English translations whenever an attack or name is shown in Japanese, but this can actually be a bit distracting because the translations are direct, whereas the names used in the dub are not. For example, when Hiei shouts "Dragon of the Darkness Flame", that's not what the translation says. Instead, it refers to the attack by its fully translated name. Minor issue, though.
The Blu-Ray version also changed the text in the opening and closing credits, as well as the text for the episode titles.
I'm so glad the Blu-Ray version changed the menus. The old DVDs were fine with an incredibly catchy background tune. However, the DVD that covers the ending of Chapter Black contained a massive spoiler not only on the menu, but on the DVD cover. Specifically, it showed Yusuke with his long hair and tattoos. I think it was awful that FUNimation thought that would be a good idea. Anyone who first watched it with those DVDs must have figured out what would happen to Yusuke after his fight with Sensui in the cave just based on that artwork. Now, future newcomers to the series won't be spoiled (that is, unless the later Blu-Ray sets don't have menu spoilers of their own).
Do the Blu-rays play the second opening at the right place in the show? The DVDs are really bad with the OPs and EDs starting at the correct episodes.
The second opening is the Chapter Black opening, right? We haven't gotten to that point yet, and since I don't yet have the Blu-Ray set for Chapter Black, I can't say. However, the second ending is playing in the right place, starting early on in the Dark Tournament. So, while I can't say for sure yet, I have a feeling they got it right on the second opening as well.
I have the blu-rays, and yeah, they start at the right places on those.
Looks like I'll need to invest in those at some point. The DVDs are good for the core show but the Blu-ray additions really do seem to add just enough.
Quote from: Cartoon X on November 17, 2015, 10:34:22 AM
I have the blu-rays, and yeah, they start at the right places on those.
Do the later Blu-Ray sets contain any big spoilers?
Of course you don't appreciate Spirit Detective. :srs:
I never suggested that.
I'll be honest, I couldn't find a reliable source for the exact publishing date of the WSJ issue which first debuted the opening chapter of Yu Yu Hakusho.
However, I know that it was in December of 1990, making this month the official 25th anniversary of the series, which is effectively a quarter of a century old now.
You won't see anyone else bring this up because nobody else cares, but for me growing up on this series and having it be a big influence on what I like as well as getting me into anime, this is a pretty big deal.
Having been re-watching YYH with everyone else all year long, I can honestly say that the series still holds up so well after all of this time, and I wanted to express my gratitude to Yoshihiro Togashi for creating it, in this very post.
This manga and anime will always mean a lot to me.
I guess Viz must have lined up the Jump Back and digital bundle for this month for that reason.
Happy birthday, YYH. I look forward to discussing more of the show in our other thread as we head deeper into Chapter Black.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inS9gAgSENE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inS9gAgSENE) Yu yu Hakusho. I've been a big fan of the show since I was Yusuke's age. :)
I really need to re-watch YYH again at some point. Despite it being one of my favorite anime, I really haven't revisited it in recent years. Although, I think I went through the entire anime 6 or 7 times when I was younger. :sweat:
I found this Digibro video from a few months ago about why Yu Yu hakusho still holds up today: http://youtu.be/2mwouh5raDg
I think it's a pretty fair, unbiased look at the strengths and flaws of the series, and I do agree with his ultimate point that what it lacks in originality, it more than makes up for in execution and tonal complexity.
And for as much as I love the Chapter Black arc, he does have a point about the animation quality going down (aside from the Doctor episodes) by that point in the series. It's not bad, just not as lively and dynamic as the Dark Tournament arc's general quality of animation. And he's pretty spot on about Three Kings.
I only really disagree with him about the Cahapter Black arc lacking the emotional payoff of the Dak Tournament arc. While the climax itself wasn't on par in that regard, there were plenty of emotional resonant moments dispersed throughout the story arc itself.
Hmm, I've been wanting to watch his Hunter X Hunter review based off of the thumbnail. I'll view both in due time.
Didn't know where to put this, but I decided to link Digibro's retrospective on Akiyuki Shinbo here because he spends a good five minutes detailing all the work he did as an episode director on Yu Yu Hakusho (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG0qydeH_as), and how he was responsible for the shows most visually striking moments and episodes (both times Hiei used the Dragon of Darkness Flame in the Dark Tournament, Yusuke vs. Doctor, etc.)
Thought I'd share this - Wave Motion Cannon translated an interview with Nozomu Sasaki, Yusuke's japanese seiyuu, from a 1993 issue of Animage. (https://wavemotioncannon.com/2017/02/28/nozomu-sasaki-speaks-album-of-yusuke-urameshi-animage-121993/) His understanding of Yusuke's character and favorite moments in the series are pretty interesting.
He has had some of the best roles in anime. Never get tired of hearing him. Really wish he got more roles these days.
I do love hearing a voice actor give their own insite and interpretation of the character that they play. Nozomu Sasaki in particular is a great fit for someone with Yusuke's attitude and heart.
A website was put up for the Yu Yu Hakusho anime's 25th anniversary. (http://pierrot.jp/yuhaku25/)
Here's the key visual:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7ulDV6VsAEjUOx.jpg)
And a photo from Anime Japan 2017:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7uiRpCVwAAKqFY.jpg)
Don't know if this means anything, necessarily, but I wouldn't be surprised if a new anime project of some kind for YYH was announced sometime soon.
A new OVA or movie would be great.
Not sure a new series would do anything for me.
Well Hunter X Hunter is half past dead so Togashi's got to make money to take longer hiatuses somehow.
He's married to the creator of Sailor Moon, who still makes a fortune in royalties from that series long-lasting success to this day. I'm pretty sure Togashi could just flat-out quit at this point if he wanted to and still be set for life.
As for the 25th anniversary stuff, it's pretty neat. It's nice to see this series is still fondly remembered in Japan to this day. That said I don't really expect any new content out of this, least of all from Togashi himself. There isn't really much point since unlike HXH, Togashi actually finished YYH and it already got a complete anime adaptation. At most it may be some sort of ultimate collector's edition set being announced, or some new YYH related merchandise to cash in on nostalgia (not criticizing, here; I'd totally splurge on something like that myself if I had spare cash).
Its gonna be a pachinko machine and a maid cafe. Get used to it.
It feels like everything's coming back in one way or another lately, including DB and Kenshin, so part of me wouldn't be surprised if we get some form of new YYH. The reason that I'm not 100% expecting it, though, is because of Togashi's schedule, or lack thereof.
Chances are that they might just make another OVA short like the one they did for the Blu-Ray releases a couple of years ago.
I'd like to see a new anime in that art style, even if it's something short. Though I like HxH, a part of me has always wanted to see Team Urameshi back in action.
Imagine how many fans would be pissed off if they announced a remake, but it was by the director of the new Berserk anime so it was all in CG?
I'd like to see a movie about how the fuck Urameshi got back to The Living World.
Super Eyepatch Wolf made a "Why Should Watch Yu Yu Hakusho" video. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DHEr87uwgE) A very good reflection of the strengths and the unique charm of the series from someone who cares very deeply about it.
I love the passion in this video. And I'm glad to see him delve into aspects of the show that most reviewers seem to ignore, like the creative and varied animation styles present throughout the series, as well as Togashi's unique and unconventional mentality as a writer, making the characters of YYH stand out beyond their base archetypes.
In general it's always great to see other passionate fans of a show that IMO has well earned it's status as a classic.
Mother's Basement just did a video on what makes a good first episode of an anime and how it can get you hooked: https://youtu.be/nEUDhkgC6rQ
While the video in and of itself is a broad topic, he goes into three specific criteria of what a first episode needs to do to hook in a viewer, and he uses Yu Yu Hakusho as the representative example of how to set up an endearing protagonist that you want to follow.
Glad someone else recognizes that Yu Yu Hakusho has one of the greatest first episodes in anime history. :joy:
Started rewatching this show today, partly on a 2003 anime nostalgia run. As I haven't seen it in way too long, I wanted to start fresh. So, since I grew up with the dub, I watched with the Japanese voice cast this time so I won't know ahead of time how my reactions'll be.
So far, I've gone through the first arc (Yusuke being revived) and I still think they're really good episodes. Even just the first episode with Yusuke at the wake and noticing how characters like Keiko, Kuwabara, et al would be worse off without him than if he had actually stayed dead. No matter how many times I watch the episode, I still get emotional watching that part. Also, Mr. Takenaka is best teacher. I completely forgot till now just how much he cared for people like Yusuke and the other students despite keeping up appearances.
On the Jpn voice cast, I think they did a rather fine job so far. The only voice I'm not too keen on atm though is Botan's since I didn't expect that young-sounding a voice to come out of her mouth at all. It's not a deal breaker, though; it's odd but not annoying.
Yeah, YYH has arguably one of the best first episodes of any long-running shonen anime.
The Japanese voices are well done for the most part, but this is one of those shows that I almost always watch dubbed to this day.
Yu Yu Hakusho is getting a new anime special included in the 25th anniversary blu-ray box! (http://moetron.news/post/168595385810/a-new-yu-yu-hakusho-anime-special-will-be-included)
Here's hoping we might get it over here. I don't know if FUNi would release it on its own though.
I hope that it's not just another series of still frames with some voice-acting attached to it like the last Blu-Ray set had.
Quote from: LumRanmaYasha on December 16, 2017, 12:16:39 AM
Yu Yu Hakusho is getting a new anime special included in the 25th anniversary blu-ray box! (http://moetron.news/post/168595385810/a-new-yu-yu-hakusho-anime-special-will-be-included)
Here's hoping we might get it over here. I don't know if FUNi would release it on its own though.
Hopefully it's not just the cast talking to the fans.
We probably won't get it unless they get the movie and release it as a bonus or something.
Kinda wish we could just get a new movie though.
https://twitter.com/YonkouProd/status/989862064351989760
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/989905420775968768
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/990067619804819456
QuoteSpecifically, it will adapt not only Two Shots (the manga side-story depicting how Kurama and Hiei met) but also "Sink of Swim", the second-to-last manga chapter that shows the Spirit World taken over by terrorists. Neither has been animated previously.
Quote(The image of Hiei and Kurama hanging out is likewise taken from the title page of the Two Shots manga side-story)
Hitting the bottom of the barrel, are we? I guess the Kurama and Hiei one sounds cool, though. I haven't read that one before.
I'd be excited for any new piece of YYH material since I'm such a huge sucker fan, but then I can't help but remember that this is modern day Studio Pierrot....:imnothappy:
I mean it's better than them attempting to remake the anime and completely botch it. Really, Pierrot needs to just stop touching things that I enjoy. :sweat:
Quote from: Painted Outlaw on April 29, 2018, 09:49:33 PM
https://twitter.com/YonkouProd/status/989862064351989760
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/989905420775968768
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/990067619804819456
QuoteSpecifically, it will adapt not only Two Shots (the manga side-story depicting how Kurama and Hiei met) but also "Sink of Swim", the second-to-last manga chapter that shows the Spirit World taken over by terrorists. Neither has been animated previously.
Quote(The image of Hiei and Kurama hanging out is likewise taken from the title page of the Two Shots manga side-story)
Hitting the bottom of the barrel, are we? I guess the Kurama and Hiei one sounds cool, though. I haven't read that one before.
How the fuck is this bottom of the barrel?!?! (https://media.giphy.com/media/FxEwsOF1D79za/giphy.gif)
I was mainly ragging on stuff like the terrorist chapter since I can't think of that without thinking of the stupid "Spirit World brainwashed demons, gaiz!" excuse of a plot twist.
Oh ok. I am sorry.
If nothing else, we might get some new merch out of this. We're still on a nostalgic swing, and most of the other popular series from the anime boom got an upswing in merch after getting new content.
That terrorist plot was also the one where Yusuke has a really OOC moment over Keiko. I don't even think the event lasts long or has a decent ending. Then there's the idiotic brainwashing twist that Togashi crapped out.
If they're going to adapt it they almost have to completely redo it. Sort of like they did to Three Kings.
But I'm not even sure any of the people currently at Pierrot even worked on YYH. Even if they are, some of them went on to botch Flame of Recca so I'm not very hopeful.
They really crammed in as much fan-service as possible into that YYH OVA, and I'm not going to lie: I was suckered in for the entire thing. It just put a huge stupid grin on my face to see my favorite characters reunite again. :D
One step closer to Yu Yu Hakusho: The Musical. (http://officeendless.com/sp/yuhaku/)
Glad to see the Yu Yu Hakusho fandom still going as strong as ever in Japan with big productions like this still being a thing. There's also been several commercials and advertisements in the last few years using YYH characters.
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fukiyaseed.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F5%2F8%2F8%2F7%2F58878313%2Fyuyu-stage-01_orig.jpg&hash=ce46a3611b67556d8574b6834f912b3c64617e64)
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fukiyaseed.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F5%2F8%2F8%2F7%2F58878313%2Fyuyu-stage-02_orig.jpg&hash=ba974ac2b95684faa65886975d666ff10fb3ab2c)
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fukiyaseed.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F5%2F8%2F8%2F7%2F58878313%2Fyuyu-stage-03_orig.jpg&hash=ca35b8a6b18afc78536fb70b28b2520ed3a58f30)
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fukiyaseed.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F5%2F8%2F8%2F7%2F58878313%2Fyuyu-stage-04_orig.jpg&hash=9b8d2ab97bc6f5dad5780bea96a1bf57bf5ddaa2)
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fukiyaseed.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F5%2F8%2F8%2F7%2F58878313%2Fyuyu-stage-05_orig.jpg&hash=fa93955c1f00f47bdcc04c722215056dbe4b625a)
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fukiyaseed.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F5%2F8%2F8%2F7%2F58878313%2Fyuyu-stage-06_orig.jpg&hash=89311ce7ae9b807be98eab2fc06d0bc8c85ee9ec)
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fukiyaseed.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F5%2F8%2F8%2F7%2F58878313%2Fyuyu-stage-07_orig.jpg&hash=f1a4cb0878914e7bbdc4a78e8f24c645b7f38a01)
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fukiyaseed.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F5%2F8%2F8%2F7%2F58878313%2Fyuyu-stage-08_orig.jpg&hash=8a634bebcc9c7a2d1cfd925ffaa875aa1d451806)
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fukiyaseed.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F5%2F8%2F8%2F7%2F58878313%2Fyuyu-stage-09_orig.jpg&hash=143b50c9ce054fc2b0ab3bd730b956523aa271d1)
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fukiyaseed.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F5%2F8%2F8%2F7%2F58878313%2Fyuyu-stage-10_orig.jpg&hash=f3e727357c322d3a0c15d6cf6b9fcf3d8fcfe5d7)
This is all a little cool but also a little weird. It would be funny if they ever made a live-action movie in Japan, and the outfits were no different from these.
Is this promotional art for the stage show that was announced some time back? If so, it's actually fairly good costume design for this kind of production.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on July 30, 2019, 09:50:55 AM
Is this promotional art for the stage show that was announced some time back? If so, it's actually fairly good costume design for this kind of production.
Yep. Definitely like the costumes more than a few (https://youtu.be/LcOQHIPllsk) other (https://youtu.be/qwPTaoo5HtE) live-action adaptations. (https://youtu.be/ovOG1IcJWvs)
Yeah, the costume design is great, but I'm not sure about how this would look on screen.
Quote from: Avaitor on July 30, 2019, 05:42:38 PM
Yeah, the costume design is great, but I'm not sure about how this would look on screen.
I think if they ever went and made a Yu Yu Hakusho movie, I would greatly prefer if they took some small liberties with the designs like the Rurouni Kenshin movie did. So many of the other live-action adaptations of anime adapt some character designs too literally and often result in the films looking more like cosplayers fighting each other with CGI than actual movies. That's possibly why despite the potential profit, no Japanese director's attempted to make a live-action One Piece or Dragon Ball movie because of how much effort you'd have to put in to make the designs work in a live-action context.
https://www.funimation.com/blog/2019/10/03/yu-yu-hakusho-ova-funimation-finally-subbed-dubbed/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=102019-fn-yuyuhakusho&utm_source=&utm_content=ova-announce&utm_nooverride=1
Funi has licensed the YYH OVA. Part of the article I thought was the best was this, though:
QuoteThe announcement was made at the Yu Yu Hakusho Reunion Panel, which featured the voices of Yusuke Urameshi (Justin Cook) and Kazuma Kuwabara (Christopher R. Sabat).
"Anytime we can return to the skins of these characters," Cook said. "That's awesome."
Always great to hear Justin Cook's version of Yusuke. Nostalgia or not, it's one of my favorite character voices in animation.
Guess we're getting a live-action show... (https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2020-12-15/yu-yu-hakusho-manga-gets-live-action-series-on-netflix/.167490)
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on December 15, 2020, 08:44:34 PM
Guess we're getting a live-action show... (https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2020-12-15/yu-yu-hakusho-manga-gets-live-action-series-on-netflix/.167490)
Because we all know how great all of the other live-action anime adaptations have turned out so far....
Even the ones that are made entirely in Japan and have the full approval of the original creator like the Jojo and FMA live-action movies or the Death Note and Mob Psycho 100 live-action series felt wrong. I think the only one I've seen that didn't feel like an uncanny valley version of the anime was the Rurouni Kenshin movie.
Anyway, expecting some guy who played a Kamen Rider to be Yusuke, a guy way too old to play a teenager as Kuwabara, characters like Toguro and Sensui to show up 2 arcs earlier because the producer gets impatient, and a lot of bad CGI.
Also expect sexy adult Koenma to be the norm.
I mean, I'd rather we have this than another anime adaptation, since why mess with perfection? This could potentially either pick up some new fans of the manga and anime, or be completely forgotten and not impact the reception to either. There are worse things that could happen.
Don't forget a live-action Genkai who's in her 40s at most.
I wonder if they'll do that weird CG hybrid version of Toguro fron those live-action commercials from several years back.
The Toguro model they used looked hilarious. (https://youtu.be/-C1waGtMVv0) Assume it'll be more practical to use a regular actor who just happens to be buff, then CGI some muscles on him when he reaches higher percents, which will also look silly and probably require either green screen or a lot of camera magic to make him look tower over the actor playing Yusuke. Or maybe they could find the Japanese equivalent of the guy who played Gregor Clegane to do it.
Why does Kuwabara look like Sensui?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYBIqTlaQAETdYA?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
I was reminded that this is a real thing that's happening when articles on it started trending again a few days ago. I suppose it'd be an interesting show to watch drunk.
I can't tell if it looks less or more dumb than the live-action Jojo movie Miike made a few years ago.
Going down this little rabbit hole. Debating if I want to start at episode 1 or jump right into Genkai's tournament. Kind of got this nostalgic feeling going on at the moment.
I still remember when this show hit me the first time viewing. I was going through some things that could've turned left and took me to a dark place real quick. I think I was about 18-20 around that time. Anger was at an all time high. Couldn't get a job no matter how many jobs I applied for. So there's depression in there as well, although, you'll probably never hear me actually say I was depressed back then. And then there's living in the hood in Detroit, MI. so whatever you've heard about the city back then I've probably seen or experienced it in some form of fashion (If I had a child back then, yeah, good thing I never owned a gun or got into smoking). So yeah, if it weren't for me coming across Yu Yu Hakusho (praise God for Toonami back then), Final Fantasy 8, Shenmue and Gungrave, yeah, I'll leave the rest of that to your imagination, but lets just say people were spared from my hands. Anyway, Yusuke was the first character I saw myself in any form of anime/cartoon/game and the episode that hit me the most was believe it or not (considering how much of an action junkie that I am and always will be), was the episode where Yusuke was jumping in to help Kurama save his mother. After that, Hiei was in the end how I sort of ended up like before I went off to college (I didn't go to college till I was 25, so I was probably about 23, and at this point I just so happened to join Toonzone and Animation Insider) and it really wrung hit home during the fight between Hiei and Mukoro. I won't go into FF8 and GG (I can on another day)
In any case, like I said, feeling nostalgic and gonna go down this rabbit hole and binge for a couple of days. Oh yeah, it was Yu Yu Hakusho and Gungrave that got me to pay attention to character development (hell, other than Rurouni Kenshin and G Gundam, it was straight DBZ for me back then and all I knew was fighting)
Toguro isn't roided out enough.
Oh God, I forgot this was still thing.
Maybe it'll be a fun hate-watch?
I'm more confused by how it seems like they're adapting multiple arcs at once, or why they're fighting Karasu and Bui at a bunch of Sentai/KR filming locations like the Toei docks or the Toei construction site.
Considering how they abridged One Piece, them condensing things for a series like YYH is weird. I can understand skipping the first few chapters of the manga, the anime did the same thing, but it does feel like they're skipping things Genkai's tournament or the 4 Saint Beasts. Are they going straight into Toguro Brothers as the arc villain of season 1. Maybe they're afraid of getting cancelled after Season 1.
Well, if there's one positive I can say, I'm kinda glad that they decided to make Koenma take his adult form.
If they're skipping Suzaku, who in hindsight kinda sucks, I get it. You can easily squeeze two seasons out of Toguro. But this looks like a mess, almost like the anti-One Piece.
I actually didn't even realize that TNM had never seen YYH. For whatever reason I just assumed he would have grown up with it since he's basically from the same generation that I am, but then I have to remember that he grew up in a different company where it probably wasn't localized for him through Toonami like it was for me and many other people who grew up around the same time.
I've really enjoyed his blind read-through series (he's also currently doing Hajime no Ippo), so I can't wait to see what his thoughts are on The Dark Tournament and Chapter Black arcs.
I have been reflecting on the series myself, and it's funny because while I'm not obsessed with it to the level that I used to be when I was younger (make no mistake, I still love it to death and always will, I've just moved on to manh other things in my life), but I still so vividly remember most of it since it has imprinted itself so strongly into my mind. You really love a series when you can so readily pick out it's flaws, and TNM coming at it without any sense of nostalgia pretty much called out many of the weaknesses that I have seen in the Spirit Detective arc for years. That said, I really appreciate how he also comes at this with the context of having already read HXH, and knowing that Togashi was still new to battle manga at this time and experimenting with fights and writing in general. I see a number of modern reviewers checking out YYH for the first time being pretty dismissive of it's quality and influence just based on the beginning having so many rough edges, but it's refreshing to see a take where the reviewer has a respectful level of patience to allow the author time to grow in their ability, and doesn't just reject the series outright.
It's also funny that I always felt that YYH was very underrated among western anime fans back in the late 2000's and early 2010's, but nowadays it feels like it gets a lot more love from old-school anime fans who may not have given the series it's due back in the pre-streaming days. I'm really happy to see that.
In many ways, I think YYH has overshadowed a lot of its contemporaries and forebears, at least in America. For instance, I saw a bunch of Saint Seiya fans take offense at a recent tweet saying YYH introduced adding shoujo elements to shonen manga.
Obviously, nobody came back from the old dub because this is Netflix, but some of the choices sound baffling. (https://imgur.com/a/sfdoiNV) Johnny Yong Bosch as Kurama? Denji from Chainsaw Man as Kuwabara? I can buy Kaiji Tang as Toguro though.
I can give the fight choreography in the live action series a lot of credit, and that's about it.
From a writing standpoint it's everything I expected it to be: a rushed mess of a bunch of the story's most popular moments and characters without a care or thought to context or how to build to any of those scenes to make them feel earned.
Watching this show does really do a good job of emphasizing that it was Togashi's particular stylistic voice as an author that made this series feel unique and special. When you rush past Yusuke's time as a ghost and try to cram in the end of The Dark Tournament saga into the Rescue Yukina arc you are basically just telling the most soulless, generic, boring shounen story that you possibly can.
I assume they severely doubted they'd get a second season, so they just fast forwarded to the Toguros because they knew that's where the series' signature moments start to happen. Which isn't in defense of the show, because they do not know when to breathe. Now this is the actual Yu Yu Hakusho abridged, skipping through and speeding up so much of the story that I don't think it's even comprehensible to people who didn't watch the anime or read the manga beforehand. Reminds me of how awful the pacing of the live-action FMA movie was.
And this is still a nitpick, but I just do not understand why they redesigned Kuwabara while other characters like Kurama or Botan stylistically adhere to the anime/manga in ways that come off as bad cosplay (Yoko Kurama's look in particular).
Obviously, those CBR/Screenrant/Ranker listicles are the brain-rotting junk food of the internet, but I was looking at a few "Which 90s anime deserve a reboot?" pieces, and YYH kept making appearances in all of them. And why? What would you get out of a reboot besides a YYH that isn't cel-animated? Because personally, when watching those recent YYH OVAs, the digital animation never sat right because the colors felt off and it lacked that texture you get from a 90s series' art. Yeah, it obviously wasn't as jarring as the CGI Berserk or anything, but I just don't see the appeal in a remake if it'll look like that. Reminded me of those videos that compared the art between HxH's '99 and '11 adaptations.
YYH has as perfect of an adaptation that you can ask for, I don't see what a digital remake could besides entice new audiences to pick up the original manga and anime to forget about it. Kind of like what Sailor Moon Crystal did.
In general, I can barely even think of a reboot/sequel of a 80s or 90s anime that benefited in ways other than "We were able to adapt more of the source material this time". Even for reboots I quite enjoy like the Jojo anime.
The answer to why they would make it is money, of course. As a business move, I can't exactly fault companies for going back to the well of already proven IPs and recycling them with a new coat of paint. Maybe FMA Brotherhood is the one exception I can think of because the original was VERY different from the source material, but in most cases it's like Insomniac said, it just has the benefit of adapting more of the source material than before. Another reason I'm glad that authors like Inoue Takehiko have so much control over their IPs and elected to just adapt the end of Slam Dunk himself as a movie instead of milking an already perfectly accessible anime with a remake, even if that would have made more money.
And to this day I will still emphasize that I personally find HXH 1999 to be superior to the 2011 remake; except for Greed Island which was done by a different team with the OVAs and was complete ass (2011 gets the win there by default).The one arc that it got to adapt on it's own was the Chimera Ant arc (which, to be fair, is like half the length of the series up to that point so it's a pretty large chunk), but If I'm being honest as an adaptation it's very safe and in trying to be so close to the manga, it adapts things in a way that's not that well suited for an audiovisual medium. The pacing is quite frankly terrible, IMO, and I'm genuinely surprised that so many people enjoyed this version of the arc let alone had the patience for it.
Truthfully, I more often caught myself wondering how the '99 anime would have interpreted this material had it been available to adapt back at that time.
I remember reading an interview from the FMA 2003 director lamenting how many recent directors of manga-to-anime adaptations often don't get a chance to stretch their creative muscles or actually direct, and are just expected to use the manga panels as storyboards and call that a day. And yeah, it's more "faithful", but you get a show that doesn't flow as well and at worst, comes off as no better than a motion comic (I think there was a show called Back Street Girls that was exactly that). While to contrast, I believe a franchise like Demon Slayer is doing so well because the anime direction gave plenty of fight scenes glow-ups they didn't have in the manga.
Believe it or not, the one series that I think is benefitting from more creative input is One Piece with it's most recent seasons. The pacing still suffers a lot, don't get me wrong, but ever since Wano it feels like the animation directors have been allowed to get really experimental with their own styles. Additionally, since the manga has gotten considerably more condensed in it's storytelling so that Oda can actually end this series within his lifespan, it leaves the anime more room to fill in the blanks and add in some content of it's own without coming off like filler (not unlike what YYH did so well). It's far from perfect, and the quality is not consistent, but the results are definitely interesting enough to be worth my time to watch.