Animation Revelation Forum

Best superhero show ever? Or just best show ever?

The debate rages on.

Quote from: Desensitized on December 27, 2010, 07:52:37 PM
best show ever

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYSNUL2hrQM

Quote from: Desensitized on December 27, 2010, 07:52:37 PM
Or just best show ever?

I'm going to be honest and say that I feel that Gargoyles managed to slightly surpass BTAS for me, if only because its quality was more consistent, whereas BTAS had plenty of golden episodes, but also had its fair share of duds, IMO. That doesn't make it any less of a magnificent show, though. Its probably the most well-crafted show of its time, and when factoring Gargoyles out of the equation, then yeah, I could see it being called the best show ever.

Cut out some of the Avalon episodes, and I'll probably agree with you.

Still, at it's best, there's no topping BTAS.

I'm hoping you meant "post-Avalon" episodes. I loved the actual Avalon arc, but I felt that the post-Avalon arc was way too dragged out, and it was the only time where I felt that the series was steadily dropping in quality, and I just wanted it all to end. I didn't think that it ever would until they FINALLY made it back to Manhattan. Of course, all of this would be much better discussion for a specific thread meant for Gargoyles, so I'll wait until that thread is created, or maybe end up creating it myself at some point, eventually.

Anyways, one of my favorite BTAS episodes has to be Beware the Gray Ghost. I really liked the idea of Bruce's former hero literally coming back to help him, in some way, but I really liked how they presented the theme of a washed up actor who only played the role of a hero actually getting to be a real hero, for once in his life. It was just a very touching episode for me, overall, and it still perfectly fit the Batman theme set by the show.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on December 27, 2010, 10:12:15 PM
I'm hoping you meant "post-Avalon" episodes. I loved the actual Avalon arc, but I felt that the post-Avalon arc was way too dragged out, and it was the only time where I felt that the series was steadily dropping in quality, and I just wanted it all to end. I didn't think that it ever would until they FINALLY made it back to Manhattan. Of course, all of this would be much better discussion for a specific thread meant for Gargoyles, so I'll wait until that thread is created, or maybe end up creating it myself at some point, eventually.

By Avalon, I meant the journey home for Goliath, Eliza, and Angela. Some great stuff in there, but a lot of filler. The actual "Avalon" episodes were brilliant.

But yeah, we should make a Gargoyles thread soon. Maybe wait for GregX to join or something.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on December 27, 2010, 10:12:15 PM
Anyways, one of my favorite BTAS episodes has to be Beware the Gray Ghost. I really liked the idea of Bruce's former hero literally coming back to help him, in some way, but I really liked how they presented the theme of a washed up actor who only played the role of a hero actually getting to be a real hero, for once in his life. It was just a very touching episode for me, overall, and it still perfectly fit the Batman theme set by the show.

I love that one, too. I especially like how both Adam West and Bruce Timm had roles in it. They helped make an already special episode even more special.

While a close competition for me, I have to say it's the best super hero show ever. Although some of the later episodes in the later arcs were noticeably weaker.

Killer Croc's voice actor died (http://www.toonzone.net/news/articles/36007/aron-kincaid-1940-2011/)

From everything I've seen or heard the guy in, Croc included, he's always been talented, so it's a shame to lose him. I'm probably going to watch either "Vendetta" or "Almost Got 'Im" now.

That's some sad news. However, I really hope no Batman show in the future continues to try this style of Batman. You can't top it and it's already been done, do something else.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on December 27, 2010, 10:12:15 PM
I'm hoping you meant "post-Avalon" episodes. I loved the actual Avalon arc, but I felt that the post-Avalon arc was way too dragged out, and it was the only time where I felt that the series was steadily dropping in quality, and I just wanted it all to end. I didn't think that it ever would until they FINALLY made it back to Manhattan. Of course, all of this would be much better discussion for a specific thread meant for Gargoyles, so I'll wait until that thread is created, or maybe end up creating it myself at some point, eventually.

Anyways, one of my favorite BTAS episodes has to be Beware the Gray Ghost. I really liked the idea of Bruce's former hero literally coming back to help him, in some way, but I really liked how they presented the theme of a washed up actor who only played the role of a hero actually getting to be a real hero, for once in his life. It was just a very touching episode for me, overall, and it still perfectly fit the Batman theme set by the show.

Adam West voice acted in that episode? Wow, how could I be so dumb to not even know that. But yeah, that was a nice episode.
I still have a lot more Gargoyles episodes to watch but Batman is of course my favorite out of the two. Oh and Xanatos >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jackal.

Quote from: Avaitor on December 27, 2010, 10:15:33 PM

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on December 27, 2010, 10:12:15 PM
I'm hoping you meant "post-Avalon" episodes. I loved the actual Avalon arc, but I felt that the post-Avalon arc was way too dragged out, and it was the only time where I felt that the series was steadily dropping in quality, and I just wanted it all to end. I didn't think that it ever would until they FINALLY made it back to Manhattan. Of course, all of this would be much better discussion for a specific thread meant for Gargoyles, so I'll wait until that thread is created, or maybe end up creating it myself at some point, eventually.

By Avalon, I meant the journey home for Goliath, Eliza, and Angela. Some great stuff in there, but a lot of filler. The actual "Avalon" episodes were brilliant.

But yeah, we should make a Gargoyles thread soon. Maybe wait for GregX to join or something.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on December 27, 2010, 10:12:15 PM
Anyways, one of my favorite BTAS episodes has to be Beware the Gray Ghost. I really liked the idea of Bruce's former hero literally coming back to help him, in some way, but I really liked how they presented the theme of a washed up actor who only played the role of a hero actually getting to be a real hero, for once in his life. It was just a very touching episode for me, overall, and it still perfectly fit the Batman theme set by the show.

I love that one, too. I especially like how both Adam West and Bruce Timm had roles in it. They helped make an already special episode even more special.

That reminds me. Timm and Lauren Mongomery had a role in Crisis On Two Earths. Go watch it, bitches.

Quote from: gunswordfist on January 12, 2011, 01:12:50 PM
How can you be dumb enough to not mention Adam West even once?

Because its common knowledge you fuck-tard. Apparently you're the only one on Earth who doesn't know that Adam West guest-starred in that episode, dumb-ass.

 Nice try but you're just covering up your lack of knowledge of Adam West's awesomeness with bullshittery.

Uhhhh....Nice try, but it looks mighty stupid when you're the one who flat out admitted that you weren't sure of Adam West's involvement in that episode when you had to quote my post and ask me to confirm it, dumb-ass. Good job trying to cover it up, though, but it doesn't work when we all know you're an idiot. Still, I can't believe that even YOU of all people didn't know Adam West was in that episode, what an idiot.

 :wth: Anyway, my favorite episodes are the Two-Face two parter. That's why he's my favorite Batvillains and that's one of the best origin stories period.

And now Boyd Kirkland died.

He was one of the show's best directors, and made some great episodes of not just BTAS, but Evolution as well.

Looks like I need to have another mini-marathon right now. "Beware the Great Ghost", "Harley and Ivy", "Perchance to Dream", and either "Second Chance" or "I Am the Night". I'll also add "On Angel's Wings" from Evo if it's still on YouTube

I'd add Subzero to that if I owned it. Actually, I think it's on Netflix, so I can.

He's the guy who directed my favorite episode in the entire series, along with many of my favorite BTAS episodes in general. May he rest in piece.

Oh damn, what a loss. As soon as I saw the name I knew exactly who it was. This is a true shame.

Quote from: Avaitor on January 29, 2011, 03:06:53 PM
And now Boyd Kirkland died.

He was one of the show's best directors, and made some great episodes of not just BTAS, but Evolution as well.

Looks like I need to have another mini-marathon right now. "Beware the Great Ghost", "Harley and Ivy", "Perchance to Dream", and either "Second Chance" or "I Am the Night". I'll also add "On Angel's Wings" from Evo if it's still on YouTube

I'd add Subzero to that if I owned it. Actually, I think it's on Netflix, so I can.

Oh damn....I just came here to talk about how I watched I Am The Night (and Almost Got 'Im) again a few days ago and loved it. That's some sad news.

I just re-watched Perchance to Dream, and it was indeed a brilliant episode. I really loved how it used a dream-world to explore Bruce's psyche. Though, I have to admit that the ending of the episode kind of reminds me that I have to judge this show on a surreal level sometimes rather than on a common sense level (don't get me wrong, this isn't a bad thing in any way, but just something that I have noticed about the series in general). In this case the Mad Hatter was willing to give Bruce the illusion of the perfect life that he wanted to keep him out of his, which was a great twist in a surreal way, but at the same time it makes me wonder why he would be willing to go that far when he had Batman in the perfect position where he could just kill him (and we've seen before that Mad Hatter is far from one of the most "honorable" villains that Batman has ever faced), or at the very least remove his mask to learn of his identity. That said, ignoring that little aspect of the episode, the rest of it was brilliantly constructed. It sure is a shame that we lost such amazing talent in the passing of Boyd Kirkland. He was truly one of the greatest minds in the animation industry of our time.

I don't think the Hatter was that clever to think about killing Batman when he had that chance. That or he was able to read Bruce's mind, and thought that teasing him like he did would be far more cruel than just offing him.

I'd also mention that it's a kids show and just trying to kill a character would be taboo, but then I remember the Joker and Bane's existence, as well as "Over the Edge", and realize that this isn't the case.

Still, it's an enjoyable episode, and if Mad Hatter killed Batman, we wouldn't have it. He had the opportunity to, but I don't think we're supposed to dwell on that.

I always thought that Hatter was more about control than anything else ever since we saw his origin. So that's why it never seemed odd to me that he would rather control Batman's mind instead of kill him. Jarvis wasn't exactly the most rational thinking character, anyway.

As for the identity, as weird as it is, I think he just doesn't care about it.

Its true that he never seemed to care about Bruce's identity, but as for not wanting to kill him, I think its only fair to point out that he has tried to kill Batman in future episodes (well, its not ever directly stated, but its pretty heavily implied), in how there are certain times when he controls other people and tries to have them act to "eliminate" Batman, so while I'm sure he would prefer to control someone else over kill them (even Batman), I don't quite think that he's at all opposed to the idea of killing if that's the better option for him.

I'm not saying that it really hurts the quality of the episode, though. Naturally, I already acknowledge the fact that BTAS had a ton of restrictions to deal with as it was being broadcast as a kid's show (even though it was meant just as much for older audiences, and in the case of some episodes it was meant more for older audiences than the kids themselves), but in some cases I do think that the show could have written some parts a bit differently to make certain aspects of the show seem more likely. I'm not saying that Mad Hatter should have killed Batman (that would just be stupid, even if it was allowed), so I think you kind of misread me on that part, Avaitor. What I meant was that the episode probably could have benefited by giving a tad bit more of an explanation as to why he would have preferred to go through such a complex method to try and get control of Batman's mind. I don't mean a lot of exposition, because that would be a bad thing as well, but just a slight amount to make it a bit more convincing. That said, Hatter was always one of Batman' more minor villains for a reason, so I find it easier to look past his shortcomings as a villain since he's clearly not meant to be one of the great minds of the series among the bad guys, anyways.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on February 05, 2011, 12:08:01 AM
I just re-watched Perchance to Dream, and it was indeed a brilliant episode. I really loved how it used a dream-world to explore Bruce's psyche. Though, I have to admit that the ending of the episode kind of reminds me that I have to judge this show on a surreal level sometimes rather than on a common sense level (don't get me wrong, this isn't a bad thing in any way, but just something that I have noticed about the series in general). In this case the Mad Hatter was willing to give Bruce the illusion of the perfect life that he wanted to keep him out of his, which was a great twist in a surreal way, but at the same time it makes me wonder why he would be willing to go that far when he had Batman in the perfect position where he could just kill him (and we've seen before that Mad Hatter is far from one of the most "honorable" villains that Batman has ever faced), or at the very least remove his mask to learn of his identity. That said, ignoring that little aspect of the episode, the rest of it was brilliantly constructed. It sure is a shame that we lost such amazing talent in the passing of Boyd Kirkland. He was truly one of the greatest minds in the animation industry of our time.

I think Mad Hatter only wanted Alice's boyfriend dead at that point (I think?) but once I think of it, having Batman on nothing but a operation table and that dream helmet or whatever is not to bright. What was the Mad Hatter going to do? Stand there for the rest of his life and let Batman dream until he dies of old age....erm I mean dehydration?

I consider the new Batman games to be a spin-off of/sequel to TAS, and I'm also posting this here because  you should watch this trailer even if you don't like video games. (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gameplay-debut-batman-arkham/711829)

Anyone else's pants tighten during it?

My biggest complaint with this series is how episodic it was. Not much, continuity exist besides the obvious ones. It defiantly, could have benefited a little from longer story arcs that'd last a couple of episodes. Having said that thought it's still an amazing show, and I always watched religiously as, a kid. I can't believe how many things went over my head back then, that I understand now though.  :o

Also while, it's heavily criticized for "selling out" I love the "New Adventures". I never understood why many said it was a weaker series. In terms of character designs.....yeah, I can see why to some extent. I also didn't like some of them. But, the stories were just as, strong if not even superior to some of the earlier ones.

Come at me haters!  :P

I don't think TNBA deserved a lot of the hate it got, either. Sure, it had some fairly weak scripts, but it's not like the original's track record was any bit perfect, either. A handful of the episodes would fit in with BTAS just fine (they were dropping the noir aspects around the time Robin joined full-time, anyway), and I think that "Over the Edge" and "Mad Love" stand up to the best of the series.

The redesigns are a bit hit or miss, however. I don't mind Batman's and actually really like Batgirl's, but Joker and Catwoman's didn't work for me, and Mr. Freeze looked a little too sleek for my liking. I'd get more into each one, but it's been a while since I pulled out volume 4, so my memory is fading a little there.

I also like TNBA. Sure the redesigns are hit and miss, and some episodes are weak, there's a lot of good in there.

So during the last two days, I've been watching Volume 3 disc 1. During the Ra's Al Ghul 2 parter  (which I finally got to enjoy for the first time since I didn't appreciate the show as a kid.) I realized that I missed a disc or 2 again. Oh well, I benefit either way. Anyway, I barely remember the episode from years ago but the whole Batman mustn't walk in front of Ra's part is something I definitely didn't forget. I did forget that Ra's was an tree hugging terrorist until I read some article or something about 3 years ago.

As Avaitor knows, I've been watching the DVDs again.

I know some people like to bring up that the series wasn't always episodes like Heart Of Ice or Two Face, but in my mind... The show is very rarely boring. Even episodes like Night Of The Ninja I can still get some enjoyment out of, even if it isn't top tier. The only episodes (I'm smack in the middle of volume 2) I have outright skipped was Be A Clown and I've Got Batman In My Basement. They are awful, awful episodes, but outside of them I have gotten at least some enjoyment out of about every other episode.

IMO, it really does deserve the #2 spot on our list and claim of best action show. There's rarely ever an outright miss.

I do think that some episode can reach boring, like later on when Robin joins Batman full time, but when it's good, oh my god, does it get great.

I will say that recently I rewatched "Trial", an episode I previously disliked intensely, but found it to hold up better than I remembered. It actually gets pretty funny, which I didn't really recall. There weren't too many ensemble episodes with the villains, but I always felt like there was potential for more, considering how entertaining most of them were.

Quote from: Desensitized on July 10, 2011, 07:56:41 PM
As Avaitor knows, I've been watching the DVDs again.

I know some people like to bring up that the series wasn't always episodes like Heart Of Ice or Two Face, but in my mind... The show is very rarely boring. Even episodes like Night Of The Ninja I can still get some enjoyment out of, even if it isn't top tier. The only episodes (I'm smack in the middle of volume 2) I have outright skipped was Be A Clown and I've Got Batman In My Basement. They are awful, awful episodes, but outside of them I have gotten at least some enjoyment out of about every other episode.

IMO, it really does deserve the #2 spot on our list and claim of best action show. There's rarely ever an outright miss.

I actually really liked Night of the Ninja and its sequel episode Day of the Samurai. I think both episodes did a decent job of exploring parts of Bruce's past in relation to when he was in-training to become Batman. And that last fight in Day of the Samurai where Bruce's old rival accepts his defeat and bows to him before being consumed by the Volcano's eruption was pretty powerful stuff (at least for its time), IMO.

I don't quite remember Be A Clown but I completely agree with you about I've Got Batman In My Basement. That episode was HORRID, and felt so out of place for a BTAS episode. I don't necessarily mind when episodes are a bit sillier and less serious in tone like Almost Got'im, but the problem was that the episode was taking itself seriously but it was just so ridiculously stupid. Penguin could get Batman in a near-death state but couldn't get past a couple of stupid little kids hiding him in their basement? WTF were the writers thinking with that episode? Its not even good at being fun in a campy sort of way. Its just plain dumb.

Oh, BTW, I was wondering if anyone else besides me was ever creeped out by the ending of the episode House And Garden (which I mentioend about in my BTAS entry for our list). That episode is a top 10 for me, honestly, and that episode still kind of surprises me to this day. I was shocked when I saw it as a kid and I'm really surprised that they were able to get away with a dark twist like that, even given the series's numerous other dark twists and turns in other famous episodes.

Be A Clown is the one where the mayor's son teams up with Joker and the kid... Kinda doesn't really do anything. Lame episode all around.

House & Garden is, IMO, top tier and the best Poison Ivy episode. That episode gives me some chills.

"House & Garden" gets overlooked, but I think it's Ivy's best moment, by far. It is a good thing that she never showed up after that episode, or at least not for much longer than a cameo, since that was a good way to end her arc.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 10, 2011, 08:15:18 PM

Quote from: Desensitized on July 10, 2011, 07:56:41 PM
As Avaitor knows, I've been watching the DVDs again.

I know some people like to bring up that the series wasn't always episodes like Heart Of Ice or Two Face, but in my mind... The show is very rarely boring. Even episodes like Night Of The Ninja I can still get some enjoyment out of, even if it isn't top tier. The only episodes (I'm smack in the middle of volume 2) I have outright skipped was Be A Clown and I've Got Batman In My Basement. They are awful, awful episodes, but outside of them I have gotten at least some enjoyment out of about every other episode.

IMO, it really does deserve the #2 spot on our list and claim of best action show. There's rarely ever an outright miss.

I actually really liked Night of the Ninja and its sequel episode Day of the Samurai. I think both episodes did a decent job of exploring parts of Bruce's past in relation to when he was in-training to become Batman. And that last fight in Day of the Samurai where Bruce's old rival accepts his defeat and bows to him before being consumed by the Volcano's eruption was pretty powerful stuff (at least for its time), IMO.

I don't quite remember Be A Clown but I completely agree with you about I've Got Batman In My Basement. That episode was HORRID, and felt so out of place for a BTAS episode. I don't necessarily mind when episodes are a bit sillier and less serious in tone like Almost Got'im, but the problem was that the episode was taking itself seriously but it was just so ridiculously stupid. Penguin could get Batman in a near-death state but couldn't get past a couple of stupid little kids hiding him in their basement? WTF were the writers thinking with that episode? Its not even good at being fun in a campy sort of way. Its just plain dumb.

Oh, BTW, I was wondering if anyone else besides me was ever creeped out by the ending of the episode House And Garden (which I mentioend about in my BTAS entry for our list). That episode is a top 10 for me, honestly, and that episode still kind of surprises me to this day. I was shocked when I saw it as a kid and I'm really surprised that they were able to get away with a dark twist like that, even given the series's numerous other dark twists and turns in other famous episodes.

I love Almost Got 'im so much.

Anyway, from the DVDs I got up to, there were about 5 bad episodes. I'll look them up to see which ones they were.

I have never seen or heard House And Garden until you mentioned it. I got to get around to that one.

Quote from: Avaitor on July 10, 2011, 08:36:45 PM
"House & Garden" gets overlooked, but I think it's Ivy's best moment, by far. It is a good thing that she never showed up after that episode, or at least not for much longer than a cameo, since that was a good way to end her arc.

Well, that's not entirely true. Chemisty also featured Poison Ivy, and although she was only revealed in a twist at the end her importance in the plot of that episode was a bit more than that of just a cameo. But for all intensive purposes, House And Garden was definitely her last primary episode (I think Harly and Ivy came after that but that was them being partnered than it being about just Ivy herself), and it was her best appearance in the series. Honestly, just because of that episode alone I'd say it made her my 4th favorite villain in the series (My favorite obviously being Joker, 2nd Mr. Freeze, and 3rd Two-Face). And just for the record my 5th favorite villain would be Clayface.

I'm watching Heart Of Steel.

Wow, even with robots I can't believe how far they were allowed to go. Some great action and choreography here, and a nice body snatcher style plot. Intense stuff.

Moon Of The Wolf...

Ugh. Talk about low level. The villain is so Saturday Morning cartoon. On the plus side, Bullock has a pretty good moment, but everything else is so hammy and cliched.

Volume 2 was even better, i think the only episodes I didn't like were Cat Scratch Fever, Tyger Tyger (poor Catwoman), and Moon Of The Wolf. Everything else was pretty freaking good.

Volume 3 started out strong, I'm up to Fire Of Olympus, and everything has been great. That said, I don't like this episode. Maxie Zeus annoys the hell out of me.

How can you not like Cat Scratch Fever? Sure it was an episode about Batman looking for a cat but I thought it was a good Catwoman episode

Meh, it was dull. The villains were pretty lame, too. It's probably not outright crap like IGBIMB, but it isn't anything to special itself.

I thought it was a nice little episode. Nothing groundbreaking but I would watch it everytime I would get the DVD

Yeah, after watching the whole thing short of volume 4, I'd say volume 3 is the best one and by far the most consistent as a whole. Volume 1 has the most duds, volume 2 probably has the most highs, but volume 3 is the most consistent.

I guess, but I still think that the show got a little more boring when it became TAOBAR. I'll say that the first few eps on the set, made before that happen, are just about all good, though.

I dunno, I didn't think it got boring at all. I enjoyed the Bruce and Dick relationship that got expanded on here. Though it is weird that Batgirl only had two appearances despite being so hyped up.

Plus you get a bunch of awesome Harley focused episodes. How cool is that?

My friends and I just got done a BTAS marathon. First 13 episodes. Man, this show's awesome.

Hoping to continue the run tomorrow.

By the way, what are you guy's favorite episodes?

You'll find that out a little later...

But lets just say that I think Moon Of The Wolf is uniformly terrible and the worst episode by far.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 01, 2012, 12:15:46 AM


But lets just say that I think Moon Of The Wolf is uniformly terrible and the worst episode by far.

Why?

Quote from: talonmalon333 on July 01, 2012, 12:44:03 AM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 01, 2012, 12:15:46 AM


But lets just say that I think Moon Of The Wolf is uniformly terrible and the worst episode by far.

Why?

Bad story, bad characters, bad direction, bad writing, bad animation, bad ideas... Honestly, it hits all the marks. It also has barely of anything to do with Batman to the point where it could be any other character in his role.

Personally, "I've Got Batman in My Basement" is what I consider to be the worst episode in the entire series by far.

That's probably my #2. But honestly, while I disliked both, MOTW just irked me more when watching. I'm not really sure why.

Yeah, I think we can all at least agree that they are both utter shit. Thankfully episodes that bad were a rarity for this show.

I think "Prophecy of Doom" was the worst in the series. Everything about that episode was just so... meh, to me.

^Actually, that is Bruce Timm's personal least favorite one.

It is... pretty campy, to say the least. Not so much in a fun way, IMO.

Just rewatched Mask of the Phantasm with a few friends. I remember saying this a few months ago, but I stand by the opinion that I like this better than Return of the Joker.

I think my only real issue with RotJ was that I wasn't sold on the explanation on the Joker's return. It might be true that there wasn't much else they could do, but I really think they made a pretty big stretch.

Quote from: talonmalon333 on July 12, 2012, 10:59:50 PM
Just rewatched Mask of the Phantasm with a few friends. I remember saying this a few months ago, but I stand by the opinion that I like this better than Return of the Joker.

I like both about equal for different reasons, but the more I re-watch them, the more I honestly have to give the edge to ROTJ, if only because I find it to be more sharply written (but a little bit), and because I find the struggles of the older Bruce Wayne to be more desperate than when he's in his prime, and therefore a bit more interesting in the context of these 2 animated features.

QuoteI think my only real issue with RotJ was that I wasn't sold on the explanation on the Joker's return. It might be true that there wasn't much else they could do, but I really think they made a pretty big stretch.

I'd argue that having the Joker tied into the murder of Andrea's father was WAY more of a stretch. I love the movie, but if I had one problem with it, its that the Joker was just blatantly forced into the plot even though there really was no solidly good reason for him to be there. Having him written into the past like that just seemed like a desperate attempt to justify his presence in the movie. I don't hold it against it too much since The Joker is a great villain, but in this case it seems like he was included more for his popularity and I just don't feel that he comes off as strong as he does in the TV series for that reason, personally. In ROTJ, while the circumstances for The Joker's return were definitely pretty contrived (but its not like there weren't a ton of contrived plot points in the BTAS TV series itself, so to me the explanation in ROTJ is far from the worst offender of that) he was definitely at his best in terms of being a villain, IMO. He really got into Bruce's psyche, and even managed to be initimidating and in general was far more of a threat in ROTJ than he was in MOTP, IMO. I mean, in one film he had a giant satellite laser that he could use on a whim to level an entire city, whereas in the other he was simply just fighting Batman and his old love interest. He's definitely great to watch in both films, but I do think its clear which one really pushes the limits of how grand his plots can get in scope.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 12, 2012, 11:13:52 PM

I like both about equal for different reasons, but the more I re-watch them, the more I honestly have to give the edge to ROTJ, if only because I find it to be more sharply written (but a little bit), and because I find the struggles of the older Bruce Wayne to be more desperate than when he's in his prime, and therefore a bit more interesting in the context of these 2 animated features.

I'd argue that having the Joker tied into the murder of Andrea's father was WAY more of a stretch. I love the movie, but if I had one problem with it, its that the Joker was just blatantly forced into the plot even though there really was no solidly good reason for him to be there. Having him written into the past like that just seemed like a desperate attempt to justify his presence in the movie. I don't hold it against it too much since The Joker is a great villain, but in this case it seems like he was included more for his popularity and I just don't feel that he comes off as strong as he does in the TV series for that reason, personally. In ROTJ, while the circumstances for The Joker's return were definitely pretty contrived (but its not like there weren't a ton of contrived plot points in the BTAS TV series itself, so to me the explanation in ROTJ is far from the worst offender of that) he was definitely at his best in terms of being a villain, IMO. He really got into Bruce's psyche, and even managed to be initimidating and in general was far more of a threat in ROTJ than he was in MOTP, IMO. I mean, in one film he had a giant satellite laser that he could use on a whim to level an entire city, whereas in the other he was simply just fighting Batman and his old love interest. He's definitely great to watch in both films, but I do think its clear which one really pushes the limits of how grand his plots can get in scope.

Fair points. I personally don't think his part in MotP was much of a stretch (the Joker was already established as previously being a gangster after all). At the same time, I agree that the Joker himself was better in RotJ, for all the reasons you listed and more. And I'd even argue that was one of his best appearances ever.

If it was the Joker who was tied to Mr. Beaumont's murder, then I might agree with you. But it was technically Jack Napier, before the Joker existed. On that level I find it acceptable. IMO, it's better than him being Joe Chill.

That said, I also don't mind the Joker's return in ROTJ. Considering that beings like Mr. Freeze and Clayface were able to live despite the fact that they should have died horrible deaths, it's not too hard to imagine the Joker having a similar revival.

All this talk about these 2 animated Batman movies really makes me want to write-up a review feature for them. I haven't done one in a while, so maybe I'll do a short write-up tomorrow expressing why I think that these are 2 of the best Batman movies ever, even when taking Nolan's TDK into consideration.

Quote from: talonmalon333 on July 12, 2012, 11:45:37 PM
Fair points. I personally don't think his part in MotP was much of a stretch (the Joker was already established as previously being a gangster after all).

Its true that he was established as having been a gangster in the past before he became The Joker, but I was saying that it was a stretch that he just happened to be the very gangster who killed Andrea's father. That just seemed like way too much of a coincidence to me, and it felt more like they just did that since they needed a reason to get The Joker involved as a villain in the plot. Like I said, I don't mind since its understandable given The Joker's popularity, and I do like seeing him in the movie, but I just felt that it was a real stretch to write him into the story that way.

That complaint aside, though, its still a terrific animated movie. I mean, I wouldn't rank it as one of my top 30 favorite films of all time for no reason, after all. ;)

QuoteAt the same time, I agree that the Joker himself was better in RotJ, for all the reasons you listed and more. And I'd even argue that was one of his best appearances ever.

Yeah, while Batman Beyond as a whole could never really measure up to its predecessor BTAS in terms of overall greatness, I do think that Return of the Joker as a feature in and of itself was one of the best things to come out of the entire DCAU, and in that regard I would say that its on par with the best features of BTAS, including MOTP, of course.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 12, 2012, 11:58:33 PM
All this talk about these 2 animated Batman movies really makes me want to write-up a review feature for them. I haven't done one in a while, so maybe I'll do a short write-up tomorrow expressing why I think that these are 2 of the best Batman movies ever, even when taking Nolan's TDK into consideration.

I actually kind of agree with that opinion. MotP and RotJ might be my favorites, with TDK either slightly behind or equal to them.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 12, 2012, 11:58:33 PM
Yeah, while Batman Beyond as a whole could never really measure up to its predecessor BTAS in terms of overall greatness, I do think that Return of the Joker as a feature in and of itself was one of the best things to come out of the entire DCAU, and in that regard I would say that its on par with the best features of BTAS, including MOTP, of course.

Makes sense. BTAS is arguably the best series in the DCAU. And RotJ is equal to MotP, which is part of said series. ;)

So I finally saw Sub Zero, and I think it was great. I really loved that final moment of the show. But I think this makes me dislike his appearance in the New Adventures even more. :P

As much as I liked his Batman Beyond episode, part of me think it would've been better for Sub Zero to be his final appearance.

I think the BB episode would have worked great still even directly after Sub Zero. It was really just that TNBA episode that spoiled the punch a bit.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on November 11, 2012, 11:20:35 PM
I think the BB episode would have worked great still even directly after Sub Zero. It was really just that TNBA episode that spoiled the punch a bit.

I can agree with that. I didn't really like that TNBA episode, and basically making him a spider was just weird.

One of the better ones was when Selina was turned into a more literal Catwoman in a homage to HG Wells' Island of Dr. Moreau. It's a shame I've never seen it in its entirety.

Problem was, I felt it was wrong to leave Selina as a blonde (because of Michelle Pfeiffer in Batman Returns). Then again, I'm partial to brunettes anyway. The other mistake was making Zatanna a 1-shot. They hinted she was one of Bruce's childhood sweethearts? Blew me away.

And they ended the series a wee bit too soon, IMPO. Don't know about the rest of y'all, but it could've stood an extra year or three with the original designs.

I picked up Subzero for a few dollars for Target recently. It's really just an extra long  episode (probably could have been a two parter), but since this is Batman: TAS, that's not a bad thing. It's a very touching ending for Freeze's character.

Quote from: ShadowGentleman on May 26, 2013, 03:12:42 PM
I picked up Subzero for a few dollars for Target recently. It's really just an extra long  episode (probably could have been a two parter), but since this is Batman: TAS, that's not a bad thing. It's a very touching ending for Freeze's character.

Yeah, as a long episode, it's quite good. There's a part of me that kind of thinks Freeze's story arc should've just ended there.

Quote from: talonmalon333 on May 26, 2013, 03:23:13 PM

Quote from: ShadowGentleman on May 26, 2013, 03:12:42 PM
I picked up Subzero for a few dollars for Target recently. It's really just an extra long  episode (probably could have been a two parter), but since this is Batman: TAS, that's not a bad thing. It's a very touching ending for Freeze's character.

Yeah, as a long episode, it's quite good. There's a part of me that kind of thinks Freeze's story arc should've just ended there.

I think of the Batman Beyond episode as more of an epilogue to the story. Because when you meet him initially he's not really a bad guy until we learn that the future is not all that different from the past.

Now the last appearance in the old series? Yes, that was a terrible waste.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on May 27, 2013, 12:03:42 PMI think of the Batman Beyond episode as more of an epilogue to the story. Because when you meet him initially he's not really a bad guy until we learn that the future is not all that different from the past.

I quite like that episode, but there's a part of me that still thinks Sub Zero would've been a better ending for him. That BB episode was quite sad, and Freeze has put up with enough of that. :P

What do you guys think about "Robin's Reckoning"?

A great episode. I really like how they handled Bruce and Dick's relationship. Probably the best two part behind Two Face.

It was one of the first episodes (yes, it's a two parter I know) I saw because it was one of the few released in Canada, and I really liked it. Definitely one of the top moments in BTAS.

Yeah, I'd have to say that it was Dick's shining moment in TAS, myself. Easily among my favorites.

Funny, I'm actually watching "Robin's Reckoning" now, and I noticed something interesting- when Tony Zucco's aliases show up on the giant computer in the Batcave, a very recognizable one in particular shows up.

Apparently he went by Sid the Squid, as well. Doesn't that make you think of another episode in a different way?

Maybe that's why some of the thugs accepted him so easily. Because they mixed him up with the alias of another criminal and he copped some of his rep.

I wonder sometimes if there's an actual Matches Malone out there getting jumped for things he didn't do.

A bit of recent sad news: The voice actors for Mr. Freeze (http://www.tvmediainsights.com/highlights/29128/adultswim-ratings-scorecard-week-of-august-5-2013) and Scarecrow (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/actor-henry-polic-ii-dies-webster-604272) have passed away.

R.I.P. :(

Damn, I always feel kinda sad to hear of news like this. V/As, screen actors, musicians, all artists of different media encountered in the past  - doesn't matter, the impact is the same. But with the work they've done, they're indeed immortalized forever.

Quote from: Daikun on August 14, 2013, 04:56:19 AM
A bit of recent sad news: The voice actors for Mr. Freeze (http://www.tvmediainsights.com/highlights/29128/adultswim-ratings-scorecard-week-of-august-5-2013) and Scarecrow (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/actor-henry-polic-ii-dies-webster-604272) have passed away.

R.I.P.

So this happened. (http://comicsalliance.com/batman-mask-phantasm-mondo-screening-poster-interview-20-anniversary/)

Damn, I want that poster.

I've been thinking, and I have to say that it's a bit of a missed opportunity that DC has never made a series of paperbacks collecting most of the original Batman comics which inspired episodes of the show. This obviously would've made more sense to have been released back in the day, but even now, I think DCAU fans who aren't super familiar with the comics would be interested in something like this.

I do remember reading that something similar was done with some of Carl Barks' Scrooge stories for DuckTales fans a few years ago, and you'd think that there would be more of a market to do this for B:TAS. As well as similar ones for S:TAS and Justice League.

And which comics would they use, for example? Since I'm not sure if fans of Heart of Ice will want an old comic about Mister Zero.

There were DC Comics before the New 52? :zonk:

Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on February 04, 2014, 03:52:20 PM
And which comics would they use, for example? Since I'm not sure if fans of Heart of Ice will want an old comic about Mister Zero.

Well no, there's no reason to put in an older Mr. Freeze comic, since Paul Dini basically invented the Mr. Freeze people care about. But some stories that come to mind include-

Detective Comics #457- ?There Is No Hope In Crime Alley!?, which "Appointment in Crime Alley" is inspired by
Batman #251- ?The Joker?s Five-Way Revenge!?
Detective Comics #475- ?The Laughing Fish!?, both of these were the basis for "The Laughing Fish"
And of course, "Mad Love"

There's gotta be plenty more, and the odd origin or two which hold up well enough to be worth including.

Quote from: Foggle on February 04, 2014, 04:01:30 PM
There were DC Comics before the New 52? :zonk:

Yep, Infinite Crisis!

Hey, remember when Spark did episode-by-episode recaps of King of the Hill? And remember when I promised I'd try to tank each season of the DCAU shows? Well, I'm going to try to combine two and two together (or not) and do similar recaps for each B:TAS episode. I'm going to do this two discs at a time, so I should hopefully be done with these after 8 posts. And I'll probably just skip the movies, since those are easier to talk about at full length.

Volume 1, Disc 1-

"On Leather Wings"- Just read this. (http://animationrevelation.com/readables/?p=452) I really should try to bring this series back, huh? I'll try in the near future. To quickly recap (even more than usual), this is a solid first episode, if far from the series' best. Still, it's hard to really knock it.

"Christmas with the Joker'- Confession time- I have a bit of nostalgia for this. This is one of the handful of episodes that I distinctly remember watching and enjoying from childhood. And I still kind of like it. That said, as a first episode for the Joker, this doesn't really work at all. His humorous sensibility is down, but it's basically like he treats everything as a joke. This is a problem because while everything may be a joke to the Joker, he takes his crimes seriously. Not without a laugh, mind you, but it'll take a while for the character to be perfected.

"Nothing to Fear"- This is considered by some (including EK) to be the first really good episode of the show, and while I wouldn't put it among the best, I do agree with the mentality. This one delves into Bruce's mental being, particularly his grief over the murder of his parents, which is wonderfully used while we're introduced to the Scarecrow. And yes, the "I am the vengeance" scene is one of the best sequences of the show.

"The Last Laugh"- This is another one I have nostalgia for, and while I don't think it's terrible, this is an even weaker Joker episode than the previous one. A damn silly one, too. But eh, I laugh a couple of times here, and unlike some of the worst episodes, I don't cringe at all. I'd have to give it a thumbs down, but it isn't really the pits.

"Pretty Poison"- Alright, here we go. The first origin villain story we see unravel over the show, and it's a pretty decent episode, too. It's also a great idea to have Harvey be Pam's date in the episode. This will come back later in the show with some great bits. Also, Tom Ruegger (yes, Mr. Animaniacs) wrote this one. While he has story credit on other episodes, this is one of the few teleplays I can find that he wrote while I go over the episodes, and it's quite better than the stories he contributed to.

"The Underdwellers"- This one is, yeah, pretty stupid. The Sewer King's a lame villain. The kids were a lame addition. Alfred's dialogue to that one kid in particular was lamely written. This is a lame episode.

"P.O.V."- The Rashomon method has been done countless times in animation, and while this isn't one of its strongest usages (Ed, Edd n' Eddy and Powerpuff Girls still have the best to my tastes, not to mention "A Firefightin' We Will Go"), I think it works well here. The three characters used, Bullock in particular, are well-defined during their stories, as the Batman myths shared across the show are present here. No two people agree on what he's truly like.

Volume 1, Disc 2-

"The Forgotten"- Honestly? I've forgotten about this one.

"Be a Clown"- Our third Joker episode, and it's another weak one. I'd say it's the weakest so far, actually. While I give the episode kudos for attempting to give Mayor Hill some development, his relationship with his son (who I never recall seeing again, btw), comes off as one-sided and half-assed, even after the resolution, while the son's story with the Joker is equally uninspired.

Also, (https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FL9PZBsZ.gif&hash=cb009b2108431eb4d64fc36bcffd8810de9c5ee5)

Two-Face- The first two-parter, and wow, what an episode. The first part is the episode most consider to be the superior one, which delves into Harvey's psyche in an extraordinarily rich matter, not just for a "kid's show", but in a way that the best dramas on TV would kill to make. It also wisely cuts down on Bat-time, letting Harvey have the story and make the audience acquainted with him before his change. Part two is still strong, as Two-Face is fully introduced into the show, and we go back into Bruce's world, as he wrestles with his new-found grief over what happened to his friend. Of course, we don't spend TOO much time on psychological issues, and there's plenty of super hero stuff for the kiddies, but it's all handled well. I think the episodes lose a little luster on repeat viewings, but it's hard to deny their impact and overall quality.

"It's Never Too Late"- While the previous episodes bordered on becoming a little too heavy for a kid's show, this one is basically an anti-drug PSA written for an audience which should be too old for Saturday morning cartoons. I think this one is well-meaning, but it doesn't have the punch to feel like a dynamite B:TAS episode. Not a bad episode at all, but hardly a classic.

"I've Got Batman in My Basement"- Unlike the last episode, however, I don't have to mince words with this one- it sucks. And I think kids knew that it sucked when they first saw it, too. I don't even like the Penguin usually, but he deserved a better debut than this. Easily one of the worst.

"Heart of Ice"- And then we go from one of the undisputed worst to one of the undisputed best. A perfect way to end this post, actually, and hopefully I don't have to get into why this one is such a masterpiece.

I'll try to do the next part soon!

Great post, Avaitor. I really like how Harvey is introduced before his origin episode.

Heart of Ice might be in my top 3 favorite episodes of the entire series.

EDIT: Also what happened in I've Got Batman in My Basement? That seems to be a unanimously hated episode on this forum, but I don't even remember what happened in the episode. Maybe my memory intentionally blocked it out? :P

The beginning of BTAS had a lot of people pulling for it to go in separate directions. Episodes like "The Underdwellers", "Be A Clown", and "I've Got Batman In My Basement" is of the current mentality of the industry that kids can't relate to an adult character and need to be related to with other kids. Eventually the staff got the hand of things and realized that the less gimmicky direction was the way to go.

Great job, Avaitor. Every segment you cover immediately brings the episode back into my head once more. I agree with you about the Penguin, but I actually think Catwoman had it the worst in this show when it came to character episodes. She really deserved better than a lot of what she got.

I think the saddest thing they did to Catwoman was her character design in New Adventures. I honestly think that was even worse than the Joker's new design.

I actually think the Riddler had the worst redesign. I mean, his original design is perfect but the new one made him into a total joke of a character and took away that air of arrogance he had.

Looking at the Riddler's new design again, I see what you mean. I think they make up the top 3 worst, Catwoman, Riddler, and the Joker.

As long as we all agree that Scarecrow had the best.

Quote from: talonmalon333 on February 17, 2014, 09:50:04 PM
EDIT: Also what happened in I've Got Batman in My Basement? That seems to be a unanimously hated episode on this forum, but I don't even remember what happened in the episode. Maybe my memory intentionally blocked it out? :P

Replace Joe Pesci and Daniel Stern with the Penguin and his goons, and it's basically Batman meets Home Alone. I'm not kidding.

Let's finish volume 1 up!

Volume 1, Disc 3-

"The Cat and the Claw"- These episodes are kinda maybe sorta... crap. Well, the first isn't too awful- Batman and Catwoman have solid chemistry, and it is fun to see their interests clash when it's Bruce and Selina spending time together. It's well-known that this was the first episode to air, while it took a while for the second part to air. Which is kind of a good thing, since the story goes downhill the moment the Red Claw shows up. I appreciate the usage of a female villain for Batman's rogue gallery, but wow, she and her organization are pretty terrible, and the second part is a massive slog, with Catwoman just not getting decent representation in it. Selina will have better stories, but like Spark said, she wasn't one of the best-treated characters on the show, and this is an indicator of how.

"See No Evil"- The show has a hit or miss reputation with creating original villains (the best one by a landslide will arrive soon, though), but here, the one-time only appearance of Ventrix works out well enough. He's nowhere near Joker or Mr. Freeze category, mind you, but the episode mostly works regardless, making for a sweet little story.

"Beware the Gray Ghost"- The last episode was good, but this is an out-right masterpiece. The only voice casting which matches Adam West's perfect performance as the Gray Ghost, it's Bruce Timm as the pawn shop owner. Besides the voice casting, here's an episode that reminds the audience that Bruce's childhood wasn't all bad, and that he did get to enjoy plenty of time with his father. This rare use of positive nostalgia is a wonderful change of pace for the show, and juxtaposes well with the mystery behind the story. This is easily one of the show's best. Oh, and Ruegger was also responsible for it! See, he knows his Batman.

"Prophecy of Doom"- This is Bruce Timm's least-favorite episode of the show, and I can see why. This is an episode calling out cults without having anything insightful or original to say about them, while there are some stupid decisions made throughout. Pass.

"Feat of Clay"- So far for two-parters, we're 2 for 3. This is a fantastic introduction to Clayface, using enough time to build the character's origin, while Batman has a hell of a mystery to crack. There weren't that many Clayface episodes, and considering how strong this and the next one I can think about were, I think it's a shame.

Volume 1, Disc 4-

"Joker's Favor"- This is an important episode for two reasons. One, this is the first legitimately good Joker episode, one which really builds into his aggressive side, and keeps the joke alive. Just like the Joker, the guy he's tormenting happened to have one bad day, and to keep things fair, he's making sure that this guy never forgets it like the Joker has yet to. This is what makes his obsessive tracking of the guy feel legit. And the other reason this episode is so important is that it's the first appearance of Harley, and the world is a better place for it.

"Vendetta"- I don't think this episode is among the best, but I'm never disappointed when I pop it in. We don't meet our villain until later on, and until then, it's a strong mystery story and one that helps to give us more of an idea of what Bullock's character is like. I don't have much else to say, but that it's worth a look if you can't recall it.

"Fear of Victory"- You know, we've had Robin on the show before, but he hasn't had much to do or a whole lot of development on the show as of yet. Here, we learn that Robin's in college right now, and that Dick's relationship with Bruce is still strong, but their differences are slowly starting to make them crack. That isn't at the center of the story though, as this is mainly about the Scarecrow's revenge. This is decent episode, but I do think that overall, the first Scarecrow episode was stronger.

"The Clock King"- Another example of one bad day gone wrong, this is a fun use of a one-off Robin-turned Green Arrow villain, who makes for a perfect fit in Gotham. It's presented and sold well, which I'd consider to be another highlight of the disc.

"Appointment in Crime Alley"- There isn't really much to say about this one, since there's no super villain and it doesn't really build on Batman's mythos, but it's solid enough to where I can't call it a dud.

"Mad as a Hatter"- The Mad Hatter isn't usually considered among Batman's best villains, but he had a good run on the show, with his origin here in particular making for a classic case of "good guy getting his vengeance from the friendzone". The last act especially has a great Alice-related climax.

"Dreams in Darkness"- And we finish off the first volume with another Scarecrow episode. I think this one makes for a good story twist by having Batman incarcerated in Arkham. We get to see what caused him to be locked up and how he saves the day despite everyone's misgivings. As an end to this set of episodes, I'll take it, although I'm not sure how it'd rank in among the best of the set.

Overall, volume 1 is an imperfect beginning to the show, but there's enough great stuff to recommend it. I'd say that the last disc is the strongest, which bodes well for the rest of the show. Which I hope to start up soon!

Another great post, Avaitor.

Quote from: Avaitor on February 18, 2014, 10:09:44 PM
"Beware the Gray Ghost"- The last episode was good, but this is an out-right masterpiece. The only voice casting which matches Adam West's perfect performance as the Gray Ghost, it's Bruce Timm as the pawn shop owner. Besides the voice casting, here's an episode that reminds the audience that Bruce's childhood wasn't all bad, and that he did get to enjoy plenty of time with his father. This rare use of positive nostalgia is a wonderful change of pace for the show, and juxtaposes well with the mystery behind the story. This is easily one of the show's best. Oh, and Ruegger was also responsible for it! See, he knows his Batman.

I was so confident when I called Heart of Ice one of my top 3 favorites in the entire series, and then you mentioned this episode. My top 3 might end up consisting of far more than three. :P

Quote from: Avaitor on February 18, 2014, 10:09:44 PM"Prophecy of Doom"- This is Bruce Timm's least-favorite episode of the show, and I can see why. This is an episode calling out cults without having anything insightful or original to say about them, while there are some stupid decisions made throughout. Pass.

It's my least favorite, too. I remember rewatching this episode a year or so ago, and really lost interest during this one. Shame it has to come right after a masterpiece.

I'm one of those people that think BTAS is not quite as perfect as everyone says, but I do think it was around this point that the show started to find it's groove and put out more hits than misses. All those episodes on disc 4 plus "Feat of Clay" are awesome, and "The Clock King" and "Mad As A Hatter" are two of my personal favorites, not to mention "Beware the Gray Ghost" IS my favorite episode of the entire series. Looking forward to see what you have to say about the next batch of eps in volume 2.  :)

If you guys are still interested, and I'm still up for it when I'm done, I might do the same for Justice League. Just like with Batman, I'll go 2 discs at a time, which should make for 7 posts.

I won't do these for Superman or Batman Beyond though. Partly because I don't go through those sets as much as my B:TAS or JL sets, and also because, among other things, I'm considering doing full episode reviews for these shows. The AV Club's probably not going to, and they deserve a good looking through themselves.

I'd be interested in that, Avaitor.

Quote from: Cartoon X on February 18, 2014, 10:21:21 PM
I'm one of those people that think BTAS is not quite as perfect as everyone says, but I do think it was around this point that the show started to find it's groove and put out more hits than misses. All those episodes on disc 4 plus "Feat of Clay" are awesome, and "The Clock King" and "Mad As A Hatter" are two of my personal favorites, not to mention "Beware the Gray Ghost" IS my favorite episode of the entire series. Looking forward to see what you have to say about the next batch of eps in volume 2.  :)

There's a small part of me that thinks I might find the series a bit overrated, too, as I feel like I could list off a number of duds... But honestly, I just can't deny that this series makes me smile, and I find myself wanting to rewatch it. It's the type of thing where I feel like the series as a whole is just so good that I can look past its flaws.

I actually find people tend to overrate how many duds the beginning of the show has. Outside of a handful of the episodes Avaitor covered, I'd only consider a tiny handful bad and everything else enjoyable to classic. Every time I watch the series I always think I'll slog through the start of it but I always find myself pleasantly surprised. It doesn't excuse the duds, but from the way some people talk you'd figure there were more episodes like "Be A Clown" than "Joker's Favor" when it really isn't the case at all.

I still consider it one of the best superhero shows.

I know what you're saying, Talon. There are a lot shows where I feel the same way as you. Even with BTAS, actually, the episodes of the show that I love I REALLY love and rank as some of my all time favorite episodes in any show ever and I can rewatch them time after time.

I don't think the series is "overrated,"in that I don't think it's popularity is by any means undeserved. I do think that people exaggerate the consistency of it sometimes. I don't think there are that many awful episodes, but I can't overlook the fact it does have weaker episodes, especially since the ones that miss really miss for me. I also don't think every good episode was amazing, "Heart of Ice" level; there were "average" episodes alongside the brilliant ones. So I don't think it's quite the most "perfect" animated series ever like people sometimes make it out to be, is all.

No show is perfect though. How many shows are there which ran for as long or longer than B:TAS with less than 5 duds, on the top of your head?

Before you read anything else, know that I wasn't criticizing the show, but rather, the general fandom's perception of it. My problem is with fans overlooking the weaker and average bits of the show.   :P

Anyway,

Quote from: Avaitor on February 19, 2014, 09:59:19 AM
No show is perfect though. How many shows are there which ran for as long or longer than B:TAS with less than 5 duds, on the top of your head?

King of the Hill, South Park, Dragon Ball, Yu Yu Hakusho, and Lupin the Third (Red Jacket/2nd Series).


...but there's much more than just 5 episodes of B:TAS I don't like. I personally do not care for:

Christmas with the Joker
The Last Laugh
The Underdwellers
The Forgotten
Be a Clown
It's Never Too Late
I've Got Batman in My Basement
The Cat and the Claw parts 1 & 2
See no Evil
Prophecy of Doom
The Cape and Cowl Conspiracy
Night of the Ninja
Cat Scratch Fever
Tyger, Tyger
Moon of the Wolf
Day of the Samurai
Birds of a Feather
The Mechanic
Blind As A Bat
Fire From Olympus
Sideshow
The Terrible Trio
Catwalk
Bane
Lock-Up
Make 'Em Laugh
You Scratch My Back
The Torch Song
Mean Seasons
Critters
Cult of the Cat


That's 32 episodes. I honestly do not care for 30% of the show, and there's an additional 20% of episodes I only find to be "alright." Keep in mind though that I LOVE 50% of it too, but still, those are 32 episodes I really did not enjoy and would not watch again intentionally. So the show has it's failings for me, which is why I shake my head a bit when people claim it as flawless or perfect. This isn't just true for BTAS: I get a bit annoyed when fans of any show call something "perfect." BTAS is just one of the few shows that don't have any dislikers, though, so sometimes those fans bother me more than it should because of a lack of other side/middle ground fans. That's all.   :sweat:

There's a couple of episodes there that I do like, but only a couple that I find more than just good. Still, you're right, the show doesn't have a highly consistent run.

But there aren't that many people who call it a perfect show. Certainly not on here at least. Most fans are very aware of how inconsistent it is.

Now that I think about it, I feel as if there are only a few episodes I flat out don't like. Even a lot of the weaker episodes that might qualify as duds, are just duds by the series' standard in my mind. They are still average pieces of entertainment, at least.

It's a little early, but I'm in the mood to do the next post. Feel free to continue the discussion if you want. ;)

Volume 2, Disc 1-

"Eternal Youth"- Alright, so on the top of my head, I don't recall there being too many more villain introductions on this set. We mostly get new adventures with baddies Batman's already faced so far, like this one, with Ivy. It's a strong episode, one that hints at Alfred's love life and how he spends his time outside of Wayne Manor, but I'd be lying if I said that this is one of my most rewatched episodes. I think I've only seen it 2 or 3 times, which for me is rather paltry for an episode I don't have much of a problem with.

"Perchance to Dream"- Now this, THIS is a great episode. Of course, it doesn't take long to realize that it's a dream, especially when you remember the title, but that's just fine. This episode plays with the idea of Bruce having a happy life without losing his parents, and hey, even Selina has use for him without the cape. But it also sells the idea that there is more to Batman than just his origin, that Bruce may truly never be happy. the last few minutes are particularly killer, helping to make this one of my choices for the show's best.

"The Cape and Cowl Conspiracy"- This is a cute idea for a story, but one that probably translates better in comic form with another Batman than as an episode for the series. What could have come out as a clever endeavor ends up as forgettable filler.

"Robin's Reckoning"- Ooh, I really like these episodes as well. There aren't too many origin stories for villains on volume 2, but we get a great origin for Robin in part 1, one that's in both parts insightful towards his relationship with Batman and down-right heartbreaking. The whole of the story, in which the mobster responsible for the death of Dick's parents, gets more time to flesh out in the second episode, which only has a brief continuation of Robin's origin, and ultimately isn't as strong. It's still a good episode, one that further hints at Bruce and Dick not always being close together in the future.

"The Laughing Fish"- On paper, this one doesn't sound too special. Actually, it sounds kind of silly, but this is by far one of the Joker's solo highlights (not counting Harley) on the show. It makes perfect sense, in a typically nutty Joker way, for him to mess with one copyrighter just for not being able to comply to his wishes, while Batman and Bullock get some crucial development time towards the two of them. Meanwhile, the Joker and Harley's scenes are typically a hoot, with some great bits throughout.

"Night of the Ninja"- The pacing on this episode is kind of slow, and Robin's lines are especially cringe-worthy here, but I think this delving into part of Bruce's Batman training is a welcome addition to the character's mythos. The first two acts are a little tough, but I think the fight scene at the end is one of the show's more clever, and like I said, the look into Bruce's past is rather useful.

Disc 2, Volume 2-

"Cat Scratch Fever"- Another Catwoman episode, and this isn't much better than her debut. Catwoman and science fiction-y stories never really seem to learn, but that didn't stop the show from trying anyway!

"The Strange Secret of Bruce Wayne"- This one may require you to test your suspension of disbelief, since it gets hella silly and down right questionable, but I enjoy it throughout regardless. I also think it's worth noting that this is one of the first villain team-ups that the show pulled out, and the first time we've seen Two-Face since his first episodes. Right off the bat, they have apparent chemistry with each other, though.

"Heart of Steel"- People really seem to like this two-parter, but I won't lie, I've never had much use for it, first appearance of Barbara Gordon aside. That said, I'm pretty rusty with these episodes, which is why I'm not saying much. But feel free to correct me on this one.

"If You're So Smart, Why Aren't You Rich?"- Well, here's one origin- the Riddler's. And he gets a very strong debut here, with a great set of riddles which require both Batman and Robin's clashing intellect to save the day. There aren't too many Riddler eps, so I say savor this one.

"Joker's Wild"- The past couple of Joker episodes have been better, but this is still stronger than his first few. Ultimately, it just isn't as memorable as "Joker's Favor" or "The Laughing Fish", but it still has some good moments all around, my highlight in particular being his meeting with Bruce, which is fascinating.

"Tyger, Tyger"- I'd say that this one is a Gargoyles reject, but not only is that disrespectful to a brilliant show like Gargoyles, but I think this episode is slightly more enjoyable than Catwoman's previous episodes. It's still a lesser effort for the show, however.

Robin dialogue aside, I enjoy the Ninja/Samurai episodes. They're a bit of a different flavor from the usual episodes but I'd be lying if I didn't say they weren't enjoyable. Other than the Catwoman episodes (as usual, unfortunately) this was a pretty good set.

"If You're So Smart, Why Aren't You Rich?" is also the first BTAS episode I saw (since it was released here on video before the show ever debuted here) and is still one of my favorite titles.

Some real great stuff there. I'm partial to "Eternal Youth" since it gives Alfred some good focus and it's a Poison Ivy episode and I love pretty much all of those. "Perchance to Dream" is a classic (though I will always question why the Mad Hatter would go through all that trouble when he could just kill Batman, or why he didn't even bother to unmask him... :sweat:). I LOVE "Robin's Reckoning;" easily Dick Grayson's finest moments in the entire series and one of my all time favorites from the show too. "Laughing Fish" and "Joker's Wild" are fun Joker eps with some very memorable moments. "Heart Of Steel" were the first episodes of the show I ever watched, and I enjoy them, though it's been a while since I've last seen them so I don't know how I'd rate 'em now. And I'll second that the Ridder's first ep is also one of my favorites too.

But yeah, Catwoman episodes are terrible. It's a shame, since I like how the character is portrayed in the series, yet they never seemed to make a good plot around her. I think the only Catwoman episode I can say I like is "Batgirl Returns," and that's only an average episode to me.

Tyger, Tyger is one I've never seen from start to finish. I'm always finding myself coming in a few minutes later, after Selina's already been transformed. I don't know where Avaitor got the idea that this was a Gargoyles rip-off, since it wasn't. In truth, it was a sort-of riff on the Island of Dr. Moreau.

Ah, but wouldn't a Dr. Moreau homage story be more of something you'd expect from Gargoyles?  ;)

Also, the idea of turning a human being into a cat-hybrid creature is sorta like what Dr. Sevarius did to Talon (Elisa's brother).

Quote from: Cartoon X on February 20, 2014, 05:40:54 PM
Ah, but wouldn't a Dr. Moreau homage story be more of something you'd expect from Gargoyles?  ;)

Also, the idea of turning a human being into a cat-hybrid creature is sorta like what Dr. Sevarius did to Talon (Elisa's brother).

Yep, that's why I always got a lesser Gargoyles vibe from this episode. Lesser in that Gargoyles did a much better take on this story.

And now I guess it's time to finish volume 2. :P

Volume 2, Disc 3

"Moon of the Wolf"- Well, this one is just awful. Just really, unbelievably awful. Maybe if you give up sobriety for the night, you'll find some enjoyment out of it, but I haven't tried it, so I can't say. But yikes, it is hard to find any redeeming qualities about this episode. And yes, that is Len Wein, the editor of Watchmen and the creator of Wolverine, who wrote this.

"Day of the Samurai"- This sequel to "Night of the Ninja" is a masterpiece compared to the previous episode, but just like its sister story, this is more interesting than exciting to watch and doesn't make for one of the best. Still, it is a decent companion to that episode and is hardly the show's worst.

"Terror in the Sky"- Another sequel episode, this one brining us back a bit, all the way back to the premiere. I never got much use out of this one. The animation wasn't nearly as strong as "On Leather Wings", and I didn't care for the central conflict, but again, this isn't quite as bad as "Moon of the Wolf".

"Almost Got 'Im"- But this one, I have no problems for. This is Doug Walker's favorite episode, as well as many others, and it's up there for me as well. A great laugh fest all the way through, with some classic lines from each of the villains, totally rocking some incredible chemistry. Even Catwoman is finally done justice, even if only briefly. This episode is especially great when you look up some of Batman's earlier stories, and realize that this is a tribute to similar capers that he used to face back when.

"Birds of a Feather"- The Penguin's best solo episode, this episode toys with the idea of his rehabilitation and the mixed results convicts like him who enter the world again deal with. Other villains will have similar episodes later on, but this is the first of its kind, and made for a compelling story for a villain I've honestly never cared for. The ending is especially a doozy, but don't feel too bad- Peingy will eventually break good later on, somewhat.

"What is Reality?"- Here's a follow-up Riddler adventure, and while it wasn't quite as strong as the first one, it's another good episode. The staff liked making Riddler episodes, but always had a tough time coming up with ideas for him to use, which explains why there's so few of them. We just have one more in volume 3, but he will have a couple of appearances here and there otherwise.

"I Am the Night"- I know some people have it out for this episode, in that they find it highly pretentious. I don't think I'm the right guy to get into why,  so I won't bother. I like it, but is there anyone else who doesn't and can explain the logic behind its hatred?

Volume 2, Disc 4-

"Off Balance"- Len Wein's back, and he wrote a much better episode! This is a pretty cool introduction to Talia, one that's full of excitement, and hints towards more important adventures for her, and maybe part of her family, as well.

"The Man Who Killed Batman"- This episode is even better! Funny from start to finish, this makes Sid the Squid a likable character as well as a comic foil to his own bad luck. Joker and Harley also come in to make a great side story, and the whole thing culminates into a classic ending.

"Mudslide"- Back to Clayface, and he gets an episode nearly as strong as his debut. Of the show's handful of vintage sci-fi throwbacks, this is one of the better ones, keeping a strong character story for Clayface throughout. The ending isn't too happy, but we're not really done with Clayface yet.

"Paging the Crime Doctor"- For a moment, you'd think this episode was attempting to humanize Rubert Thorne, but that doesn't really end up happening. But he gets a compelling story with his brother, which wraps around to a sweet ending with Bruce. I wouldn't call this one of the best episodes, but it's a solid one alright.

"Zatanna"- Here's the first appearance of a DC hero outside of the Batfamily, but also gives the audience more insight into Bruce's training. I like Zatanna's character and always appreciate insight into Batman's past, so the episode works for me, but I don't think she has great chemistry with Batman. And while she never returns to the show, we do see her again in Justice League, way into Unlimited.

"The Mechanic"- Nothing too earth-shattering here, but I like seeing Batman's relationship with Cooper, and the pacing's strong enough. It isn't a classic, but really, if this is one of the low points on the disc, we're in good hands.

"Harley and Ivy"- We end the set with one of the show's most iconic episodes. The animation is a little wonky at some points, but everything else is fantastic. Harley and Ivy have both been well-defined at this point, each with their own strong personalities fleshed out enough to make their chemistry come off as fresh and exciting as it is. The lack of Batman until midway through the second act is a welcome change of pace, and does help to build up the titular character's relationship. Even the Joker, who this episode isn't really about, gives the audience hints of just how abusive his treatment of Harley is, an aspect of the show and their characters which will matter more later on in the series.

This episode has become a bit of a feminist icon, and had a hell of an afterlife. Besides having the two characters team up some more times later on, not only in the show, but even in a couple of comics series, if you talk to someone about this show, this episode is usually one of the few to come up first. For one thing, it's surprisingly hard to find a show or movie with a well-written, believable friendship of two women, especially on a show intended for boys. There are obvious lesbian undertones among their history together, but beyond them, it becomes apparent that both women just want a friend of their own, and after a lot of the crazy shit that goes down in Gotham, I don't think it's hard to understand why Harley and Ivy connect to each other. On top of that, literally everything about this episode works, it is just that good and important.

And that's volume 2. The show is getting into a little more of a groove, but it's still not fully consistent yet. There are still some obvious duds, some worse than in the previous volume, but Timm and crew are clearly learning what works and what doesn't as they go along. Just like the first volume, the last disc here is the strongest, but the first isn't too bad itself. We only have a handful of episodes of episodes left of the original 65 episode order, and then we go into the Adventures of Batman & Robin. All of this, and some new characters, in volume 3, coming soon!

People find "I Am the Night" pretentious? Why? I don't see it...  :-\

Quote from: Cartoon X on February 19, 2014, 08:52:31 PM
Some real great stuff there. I'm partial to "Eternal Youth" since it gives Alfred some good focus and it's a Poison Ivy episode and I love pretty much all of those. "Perchance to Dream" is a classic (though I will always question why the Mad Hatter would go through all that trouble when he could just kill Batman, or why he didn't even bother to unmask him... :sweat:). I LOVE "Robin's Reckoning;" easily Dick Grayson's finest moments in the entire series and one of my all time favorites from the show too. "Laughing Fish" and "Joker's Wild" are fun Joker eps with some very memorable moments. "Heart Of Steel" were the first episodes of the show I ever watched, and I enjoy them, though it's been a while since I've last seen them so I don't know how I'd rate 'em now. And I'll second that the Ridder's first ep is also one of my favorites too.

But yeah, Catwoman episodes are terrible. It's a shame, since I like how the character is portrayed in the series, yet they never seemed to make a good plot around her. I think the only Catwoman episode I can say I like is "Batgirl Returns," and that's only an average episode to me.

I thought the same thing.

I also pointed that out a long time ago. I remember that Desensitized tried to explain that away, but given that he's tried to kill Bat man in the past, it really doesn't make sense that he wouldn't just do it when he had the perfect chance to.

I don't really know why except that maybe he cares more for playing around than anything else. He is a man-child after all. I'm not the writer, though.

Why is "I Am The Night" pretentious?

I never thought that was the Hatter's MO, at least not in this instance.

And man, there's a thread I remember from the DCAU board from way back, but tz's archive is whack, and I can't find it. I also don't remember the nam of the guy who posted it, so it'd be hard to find.

Why do people find "I Am The Night" pretentious?

First thing I could find. (http://www.toonzone.net/forums/dc-animation-forum/60330-b-tas-i-am-night-talkback-spoilers-3.html#post1611872)

So basically because people are over-analyzing it.

QuoteIt's one of those episode that tries to tell you at every given moment that its deep, profound, and completely transcending standard cartoon convention

I don't recall it "saying" that, but I do recall fans asserting what it "says" via their own interpretation.

QuoteGordon gets shot. Oh the potential! Oh the--oh wait, it's just a cheap meaningless ploy to get Batman to suffer a nonsensical crisis

Bruce's parents get shot. I guess that's just a ploy to get him to be Batman.

BTAS fans have some weird opinions.

Mmm...can't say I agree with a lot of those peoples' views. I thought the point of the episode was that Bruce had been on a losing streak, and the final nail in the coffin was when Gordon got shot, which is something he felt he could've prevented but failed too, which is why he's at the point where he feels he should just give up. Maybe the dialogue is a little over dramatic, but otherwise I thought this was a pretty good episode showing Bruce under pressure and then wising up to the fact that while not everything always goes as he wants it, he IS making a difference, and he needs to keep up the good fight. I thought it was effective, and I certainly didn't get any sense of prevention from it. It certainly could have been done a little better, but I can think of far lesser episodes to deride than "I Am the Night."

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on February 21, 2014, 12:25:37 PM
BTAS fans have some weird opinions.

Every fanbase in existence.

Quote from: talonmalon333 on February 21, 2014, 06:13:31 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on February 21, 2014, 12:25:37 PM
BTAS fans have some weird opinions.

Every fanbase in existence.

Of course, but this kind of criticism is quite over the top.

Zatanna is a personal favorite, and I'm just sorry we didn't get to see her again until JLU. Liked the idea of Zee & Bruce being childhood sweethearts, which Dini later explored in Detective Comics.

You guys do remember that they brought in Julie "Earth Girls Are Easy" Brown to play Zatanna for this one shot, right?

I don't hate Moon of the Wolf, but I never liked it much. What's off about it, aside from the bad character design of Romulus (the dude who becomes the werewolf), is that it introduces one of the absolute worst characters in the entire series: Professor Milo. I don't know how he is in the comics but good grief, what a painfully bland and generic villain. I think it says something that even years later when he was brought in out of the blue in that episode of Justice League that I overjoyed when Doomsday finished him off. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Timm or someone on staff hated him.

Almost Got 'Em is my favorite episode.

Quote from: Peanutbutter on February 21, 2014, 09:36:10 PM
I don't hate Moon of the Wolf, but I never liked it much. What's off about it, aside from the bad character design of Romulus (the dud who becomes the werewolf), is that introduces one of the absolute worst characters in the entire series: Professor Milo. I don't know how he is in the comics but good grief, what a painfully bland and generic villain. I think it says something that even years later when he was brought in out of the blue in that episode of Justice League that I overjoyed when Doomsday finished him off. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Timm or someone on staff hated him.

Oh yeah, he was in that wolf episode. I thought he literally went from experimenting on stray animals to creating Doomsday. lol

I think it's about time to finish the rest of the show's first production season, and get a head start on TAOBAR.

Volume 3, Disc 1-

"Shadow of the Bat"- This set begins with a doozy- a two-parter introducing Batgirl. It's a pretty good set of episodes, too. They wisely cut down on Batman time for these episodes in favor of giving us more insight into Barbara Gordon's character, explaining how she has her Batgirl skills and letting the audience grow to like her as a person more. Meanwhile, the reasons for the debut of Batgirl makes for a decent enough mystery which is present throughout. There's even a bit of development towards Batgirl and Robin's relationship, which ultimately doesn't last but is hinted at being quite serious later on in TNBA. As build-up to an important character's start in the series, and as a two-part episode, I think it mostly succeeds.

"Blind as a Bat"- They tried something like this much earlier on with "The Forgotten", which also messed with the status quo of Batman's usual lifestyle. While that was a complete dud, mostly since it was made so soon into the show's cycle, before the audience was able to really make a connection between Batman, I think this episode is a lot more bearable now, almost 60 episodes in. I wouldn't call it great, but it is one of the Penguin's better episodes at least.

"The Demon's Quest"- We met Talia near the end of the last set, and now she's back with her daddy in this two parter. And yes, Nolan got the pronunciation wrong (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TULYXGYz02c). This is a very exciting pair of episodes for both fans of Ra's and in general, one that has plenty of action, palpable tension, and a strong dynamic between the father-daughter duo. Easily a highlight of the show.

"His Silicon Soul"- A sequel of sorts to the "Heart of Steel" two-parter, like those episodes, there' obviously some strong ties here that fans feel connected to, but I can truthfully take or leave. But if you really liked those episodes, you need to check this one out as well.

"Fire from Olympus"- This is a little silly if you aren't able to embrace an episode of this kind for the show, but it definitely has its fans. I know that Maxie Zeus from tz (and yes, he got his user name from this episode) considers it his personal favorite, and while I wouldn't go that far, I like the idea of seeing Batman face something close to a god for a change. Maybe it would have been more enjoyable (or even unbearable, who knows) if they went for straight-up camp instead of playing the episode as straight as they did, but I still give it my thumbs up.

Volume 3, Disc 2-

"Read My Lips"- And here's another episode that I think may be too much for some fans, but is also one I really enjoy. I do very much like the question behind Scarface, whether it's the man or the puppet, which when you get down to it, is something only Arkham could really handle. It's an episode I never walk out disappointed from.

"The Worry Men"- I don't think this one is too bad, but it is the Mad Hatter's weakest solo endeavor, and it comes off as an episode made out of desperation to fill a massive quota out more than anything. I can't say that I've seen it more than once, but I really don't remember it being painful.

"Sideshow"- And here we go, the first episode of the revamped Batman, this time promising more Robin in the show. And this is a pretty good one, although it doesn't focus on Batman or Robin too much, instead giving time to Killer Croc and the carnies he befriends. There's very much a vibe reminiscent of Tod Browning's Freaks, which makes the episode fun to watch and even sympathize with.

"A Bullet for Bullock"- But here's something really special. Bullock has been humanized a little beyond the Bat-hating maniac here and there on the show, but this one lends the episode out to him and the Dark Knight to take care of matters on his hand. It's a hell of a watch, even if it isn't often brought up among the show's best.

"Trial"- I have to admit, when I first watched this episode, I wasn't a fan. I thought it was too silly, that the point wasn't presented well, and that it ultimately came off as pointless. Another viewing turned me around however, and now it's one of my most watched episodes of the show. It is a very funny episode, and it is a treat to see practically every villain to date here. The concept of Batman being to blame IS argued well throughout, which makes this one of the show's absolute highlights.

"Avatar"- Ra's al Ghul is back, in an interesting follow-up, even if it isn't as strong as his premiere. Still a solid episode though.

"House & Garden"- This is easily Ivy's best solo episode, a hope at retribution for her gone wrong. The typical fantastic Batman: TAS atmosphere is present all the way through, with the ending being a heartwrenching one. I do very much wish that this was Ivy's last episode however, even though I do like her later team-ups with Harley. This was just such a high note for her to call it a day on, that it's kind of disappointing that she didn't.

"The Demon's Quest" are another two of my top favorites from the series. Really, I just love any episode with Ra's, but those were definitely his finest ones.  And I'll second "House and Garden" being Ivy's best episode, though I do like her appearances later on enough.

I feel like Trial doesn't argue that Batman is to blame extremely well, because it comes out in the end essentially spelling out the answer that he's not really to blame.

Yeah, I concur. The focus of the blame is more placed on the villains themselves for their choices than on Batman, so the argument that he is responsible for some of it is muddled at best. Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns comic and it's movie adaption does a much better take on the idea, though with some unfortunate over the top elements that still hurt it a bit. 

"Trial" is still an entertaining episode, though, and I actually like how it calls the villains out on the bullshit self-pity since they ARE much more to blame than Batman is for their continued crimes.

I really like Trials, too. Just not for any debate. Actually, I think this episode is sound enough that there isn't much debate to even be had.

I didn't forget about this, I just got lazy lol. But here's the rest of volume 3!

Volume 3, Disc 3-

"The Terrible Trio"- Or maybe this is why I didn't feel like continuing lol. Ugh, this really sucks. The boys are annoying and Batman doesn't do much better to be more interesting by comparison.

"Harlequinade"- By now, Timm and crew, Paul Dini in particular, realized just how important Harley Quinn was to the show's success. A fully original character, Harley gave the Bat mythos another necessary feminine touch and a highly fascinating villain in her own right. This episode divorces her from the Joker even more than "Harley & Ivy" did, which isn't really a bad thing. She has good chemistry with Batman, and Robin's addition midway to the episode is done nicely. The last act, which reunites Harley with her psycho man, just builds into their strange relationship. A damn fine episode which I can't fault too much.

"Time Out of Joint"- This episode brings back the Clock King, and while it isn't as strong as his debut, I think this is a decent episode regardless. Maybe nothing too special, but still better than "The Terrible Trio."

"Catwalk"- Wow. I do not remember this one at all. It's a Catwoman episode though, so I'm not too surprised. I do remember another Scarface episode, but have no memory of Selina being in it, so I'll see you in volume 4. :P

"Bane"- This episode does the best it can to give a solid introduction to a so-so villain. Bane's a good example of power =/= personality, which is basically this episode as a whole. Serviceable at best, forgettable at worst.

"Baby-Doll"- Doug Walker is a staunch defender of this episode, and yes, I can definitely see why. Baby-Doll works perfectly as a one-off antagonist (and I know she returns, but I'll get to that eventually), with a traditionally strong origin story that culminates in a heart-breaking finish. Not to justify her actions, but the episode is definitely worth a look if you don't fully recall it.

"The Lion and the Unicorn"- I think this was the last episode to air of the series before switching over to TNBA on Kids WB!, and if so, that's a shame. Red Claw is just as uninteresting here as she was in "The Cat and the Claw", and even the show's attempt at giving Alfred some backstory doesn't work. This is a complete bore.

Volume 3, Disc 4-

"Showdown"- This episode barely has Batman in it, and is basically Ra's al Ghul telling a story about the time Jonah Hex foiled one of his plots. If this was a failed back-door pilot for a Jonah Hex show, I have no idea, but I know that if I saw this as a kid, when I had no idea who Hex was, I would've been confused and annoyed. Now that I've read some of his stories and have a feel for his character (wisely ignoring the movie as of yet, though), I enjoy it a bit. this is definitely not a traditional B:TAS, but that's okay sometimes.

"Riddler's Reform"- This episode continues from "Birds of a Feather" and "House & Garden", this time being part of a mini-arc of failed redemption stories for some of the show's villains, first off with the Riddler. Like his previous episodes, it's nicely plotted, but the ending isn't too surprising. And this is it for Riddler stories, which is a shame, since his presence was always welcome, yet it's just so hard to get a good story for him down. At least he ended on a high note, right?

"Second Chance"- If I was to make a personal top 5 episodes from the series, it would probably contain "Heart of Ice", "Perchance to Dream", "Almost Got 'Im", something I'll get to in volume 4, and this one. I wrote about this one in much greater depth on the old board, but I just love the delving into Harvey Dent's character, right down to that sweet little ending when he sees Bruce for the first time since his accident. It's an emotionally rough, but incredible episode.

"Harley's Holiday"- The Riddler and Two-Face nearly had their chance to join the right side of the world, and now it's Harley's turn. However, as we see, she's simply not ready to be a functioning member of society yet. The stakes are weirdly high from such a silly issue, but that's Gotham for you. I wouldn't say it's the best kind of these episodes, but I watch it fairly often and always end up enjoying it. There's some good gags and a cute little ending for Harl and Batman.

"Lock-Up"- Here's another attempt at an original villain from the showrunners, yet unlike Harley, Lock-Up never became much of a deal at all. It's an average-at-best episode, and he doesn't have a great presence ala Batman's best baddies, so there's no surprise there.

"Make 'Em Laugh"- Huh, this is the first Joker episode, at least with him front and center, in a while, and it's a strange little misfire. This episode feels like it's building up to one joke, which just ends up being the Joker being pantsed. That's all that needs to be said.

"Deep Freeze"- Wow, we haven't had a Mr. Freeze episode since his excellent premiere. Strange, but this follow-up is a good one, an episode that almost promises Freeze the thing he wants the most, but that just can't happen. At least not yet. As a sequel to "Heart of Ice", I'd give it at least a B+, if not higher, but it doesn't really set up for the SubZero movie. Then again, there wasn't any plans of the movie happening until some time after the fact, so that isn't a big deal. I have one more Mr. Freeze story coming up in volume 4, as well as a final story in Batman Beyond, but his run is pretty strong, all things considering. I'd say his run works 4 out of 5 times.

"Batgirl Returns"- The last episode planned for Fox Kids, this brings Batgirl back into the front. It's kind of cool that the set begins and ends with Batgirl episodes, all things considering, when you realize how integral she is to the upcoming movie and the show's continuation. This gives her not only a decent story to deal with, but what might just be Catwoman's best episode of the entire series, bar "Almost Got 'Im". Not a bad way to end a set.

Volume 3 is a little weird. While 2 was light on villain introduction and mostly focused on building up the baddies already introduced, 3 threw a bunch of new character onto the wall to see how they'd fit into the show's dynamic, and the results are all over the place. There are some great episodes and probably the smallest amount of bad episodes on this set, but I think I prefer the earlier ambitions, even if there are more failures, of the first 2 volumes. Still, I get great use out of this set, and I can't wait to get to the New Adventures of Batman and his merry friends.

I always thought Baby-Doll worked really well. It's the ending that really sells it, I think.

My one gripe with BTAS is that there weren't enough Riddler episodes. I really liked the ones they did, but he really could have used a few more to set himself apart more. And then... there was his redesign. Ugh.

That Mr. Freeze episode you're referring to that doesn't work was such a disappointment. Every other one of his episodes is great, but that one was so silly and ridiculous and made him out of character to get a plot. I just never understood why they made it.

All in all, volume 3 is some great stuff. I like that they tried so many new things and even if they don't always work they're still mostly enjoyable.

Quote from: Avaitor on February 27, 2014, 11:37:18 PM
it doesn't really set up for the SubZero movie. Then again, there wasn't any plans of the movie happening until some time after the fact, so that isn't a big deal.

What makes you say that? Didn't that episode put Freeze where he is in SubZero?

Quote from: Avaitor on February 27, 2014, 11:37:18 PM
"Batgirl Returns"- The last episode planned for Fox Kids, this brings Batgirl back into the front. It's kind of cool that the set begins and ends with Batgirl episodes, all things considering, when you realize how integral she is to the upcoming movie and the show's continuation. This gives her not only a decent story to deal with, but what might just be Catwoman's best episode of the entire series, bar "Almost Got 'Im". Not a bad way to end a set.

I like the look Catwoman gives when she realizes that Batgirl agrees to work with her.

Quote from: talonmalon333 on February 28, 2014, 01:03:13 AM

Quote from: Avaitor on February 27, 2014, 11:37:18 PM
it doesn't really set up for the SubZero movie. Then again, there wasn't any plans of the movie happening until some time after the fact, so that isn't a big deal.

What makes you say that? Didn't that episode put Freeze where he is in SubZero?

I haven't seen the episode in a while, so I don't recall.

One more set, and then that is it for Batman! Let's go!

Volume 4, Disc 1-

"Holiday Knights"- And here is the New Batman Adventures, the show's Kids WB! continuation. And we start off with a Christmas episode... which aired in September. This is especially different, as this episode is done as a series of 3 vignettes. The first story reunites the Harley and Ivy pairing, confirming their debut episode's popularity, and has them brainwash Bruce Wayne into paying for a massive Christmas Eve shopping spree. As you can tell, it's a lightweight short, but cute enough. Next brings Batgirl into the front, introducing Tara Strong's take on the role, as she deals with Clayface while at the mall. The last, which is actually a New Years story, has Batman and Robin, the newly-found Tim dRake incarnation, try to stop the Joker's killer party. The latter two stories are more traditional B:TAS tales, and they're okay as a whole, yet I can't say this episode is much beyond pleasing on the whole.

"Sins of the Father"- It's weird that the previous episode was the show's premiere, when this introduces Tim Drake to the fold. Although there's some definite Jason Todd influence in this Robin, since Tim isn't actually an orphan in the comics. The episode is mostly by the books otherwise, although the ending is slightly important.

"Cold Comfort"- "Heart of Ice" introduced Mr. Freeze to the show, "Deep Freeze" gave him hope, then shit went down during SubZero, ending with Nora coming back to life. Sadly, she doesn't stay with Victor Fries, not knowing that he's alive after the results of the film, so now he goes psycho here. Sadly, the episode doesn't work for him in most any way, leading to a disappointing tale in Freeze's saga. But not the end, if you stick around for Batman Beyond, as he gets a bittersweet coda.

"Double Talk"- This episode brings back the Scarface and ventriloquist conflict back into the fold, taking some time off from the excellent "Read My Lips", and making for a solid enough episode.

"You Scratch My Back"- So Batman and Catwoman didn't really work out, but here, she kinda gets it on with Nightwing. There are worse Catwoman episodes out there, since this dynamic is actually kind of interesting, but it's still not a great episode.

"Never Fear"- Huh, I don't remember this one much at all. I'll have to give it another watch. I'm sorry guys. :P

Volume 4, Disc 2-

"Joker's Millions"- "I may be crazy enough to take on Batman, but the IRS? No thank you!" The only saving grace from an otherwise really stupid episode.

"Growing Pains"- Ooh, this one's a doozy. It's mostly a solo Robin episode, where he bonds with a girl who looks to be close to his age... until, eh, why spoil? It's a dark, but kind of sweet episode that I recommend checking out again, or for the first time maybe.

"Love is a Croc"- Even as a kid, I found this one creepy, but not in a good way. It's just an episode that's hard to defend or even remember.

"Torch Song"- This won't make it anywhere near a greatest episodes list, but I like it. The build-up is pretty good, letting us get an idea of both sides of the action, while not taking the plot too far from Batman. The ending especially is a great one, which I'd argue to be among the show's best.

"The Ultimate Thrill"- Wow, another episode I barely remember. This doesn't speak well for this set, does it?

"Over the Edge"- But hey, at last this disc ends with a bona-fide classic. This is easily one of the show's most intense episodes, with a killer new idea every other minute, and it holds up in repeat viewings. As for the ending, let's be honest, would you really have wanted all of this to happened? I think Barbara's ending talk with her dad was brilliant, myself, and makes up for any contrivance.

Hmm, I'd say these are the weakest set of episodes so far. "Double Talk," "Growing Pains," and "Over the Edge" are amazing, but the rest are either disappointing or forgettable, though I can't say I hate any of them either (though I've never cared for "Torch Song," but maybe I should give it another chance one of these days).

Cold Comfort should have never been made. HIGHLY unnecessary episode.

I will never understand those who hate Over the Edge, though. The episode is mostly about Barbara and her doubts about what she has chosen to hide from her father and that she would set all this off was definitely her greatest fear. Let's be honest, if this was real the show would be over.

The Batman Beyond episode with Freeze was great, but a part of me still wonders how it would have been if his story arc just ended with SubZero.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 01, 2014, 12:27:39 AM
Cold Comfort should have never been made. HIGHLY unnecessary episode.

I will never understand those who hate Over the Edge, though. The episode is mostly about Barbara and her doubts about what she has chosen to hide from her father and that she would set all this off was definitely her greatest fear. Let's be honest, if this was real the show would be over.

Maybe that's the thing for people. They write a story so intense with such incredible high stakes that there was simply no way out other than pulling the dream card.

As for me, I think the ending is perfect. So that idea has nothing to do with what I think.

I think of the Batman Beyond episode as more of an epilogue to his story. I would rather prefer his proper story ended at Sub Zero.

Over the Edge isn't about anything other than Barbara's worst nightmare, it was the reason everything was put into action. If you take her out of the equation you just have things happening because things are happening and it becomes a mindless action show.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 03, 2014, 12:20:49 PM
I think of the Batman Beyond episode as more of an epilogue to his story. I would rather prefer his proper story ended at Sub Zero.

The reason I wonder is because, had his story ended with SubZero, it would have been completely different. He would have gotten a nicer ending.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 03, 2014, 12:20:49 PMOver the Edge isn't about anything other than Barbara's worst nightmare, it was the reason everything was put into action. If you take her out of the equation you just have things happening because things are happening and it becomes a mindless action show.

Like I said, I personally know that. I'm just saying that apparently a lot of people liked it before we learned it was Barbara's worst nightmare.

I think without the Batman Beyond episode he would have never gotten death as it was implied that he would have lived forever as he was. I don't think that would have been a particularly great life for him living alone forever. I think for an epilogue, the Batman Beyond episode gives him the final chance at life he wanted and the death he could finally have even if he still can't come to grips with who he is.

If they brought him back after that it would have been worse than Cold Comfort.

Overall, I think the absolute ideal scenario would be to leave his story with SubZero, and then end it with the Batman Beyond episode. That New Batman Adventures episode nearly weakened his arc for me.

Seeing what Avaitor's covered so far, TNBA isn't quite as strong as I remember it being even on my last watch. There are some excellent episodes, but I mean he still hasn't even covered the worst and there isn't a whole lot of greatness here to be had even on these discs.

Maybe if they had a second season it would have improved but it's easily the weakest part of BTAS to me.

I'll get to the last batch of episodes later, but I think the problem with TNBA is that Timm and crew just weren't that good at villain-of-the-week stories. Superman's best episodes tended to focus on his mythology and the character's sci-fi roots rather than Lex or whoever he was facing that episode, while Batman's best are usually more psychological and tend to have some sort of mystery to solve. Proving this belief, TNBA's best episodes are mostly the darker ones that would fit right in with the Fox Kids episodes.

At the end of the day, I would have welcomed another season, but I think it was for the best that they dropped the show to focus on Beyond instead.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 03, 2014, 09:01:18 PM
Maybe if they had a second season it would have improved but it's easily the weakest part of BTAS to me.

I think anyone would agree with that opinion.

I'd say it's probably lower tier DCAU in general.

Might as well finish the show

Volume 4, Disc 3

"Mean Seasons"- Standard episode with a decently powerful ending. This just isn't an episode that makes enough of an impact one way or the other to say much more.

"Critters"- This episode is fucking crazy! And kind of stupid, but that's part of the fun. I can't say that I hate it, even though it's not technically a good episode at all. But I understand why most people do.

"Cult of the Cat"- From what I can recall, this is the one of the only TNBA episodes to not have the rest of the Bat family in it. Being a Catwoman episode though, that isn't really a good thing, since it's kind of flat. But the lack of Batgirl and the boys do make this a welcome change of pace, so there is some good here.

"Animal Act"- Nightwing has had by far the least amount of representation of the Batfamily in this series, which makes sense, since Dick is supposed to be distant to Bruce, but they do try to rectify this by the end of the show's run. This episode takes Dick back to the circus, which is pretty interesting, but hardly worthy of being a classic, considering how otherwise by the books it is. But still, credit to trying to give Nightwing something to do for a change.

"Old Wounds"- Speaking of Nightwing, this episode delves into just why Dick quit being the original Robin and took his own agenda, as well as how Barbara cracked Batman's code. It's a lot more exciting than the previous episode, but I still wouldn't really call it one of the show's best, since it all kind of meanders around a lot.

"The Demon Within"- Kind of cool, kind of forgettable, this episode is oddly but surprisingly delightfully disjointed.

Volume 4, Disc 4-

"Legends of the Dark Knight"- Now this one, this is a bona-fide classic. In this episode, we get to see a few different eras of Batman's legacy brought into nice animation here, including the golden age and Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns. And yeah, there's even a Schumacher jab! The ending is somewhat expected, but not bad at all.

"Girls' Night Out"- Superman had a couple of crossover appearances with Batman and his cast on S:TAS,  and here we get the favor returned a bit with Supergirl teaming up with Batgirl to take on Livewire, who's also teamed up, this time with Harley and Ivy. You could probably guess the idea of the episode based on the title alone, but hey, that's where the fun is. This isn't dumbed down for girls, since Timm and crew knew that the girls who watched this show like how it is to begin with, but gives the ladies their own fun little episode. Nothing wrong with that, as far as I'm concerned. This is one of my favorites of TNBA as a result.

"Mad Love"- This is the episode that would round out my top 5. Granted, I've heard from fans of the comic this episode is based off of (which actually came from B:TAS' tie-in comic book, and was even written by Dini, who remade the story for the screen) that the original is better, but I don't care. This is easily the best representation of Harley's complicated relationship with the Joker, as rough as it is. Sadly, she comes around by the end, but that's just a part of her character, as we all know. The episode is still a necessary watch.

"Chemistry"- This episode really throws you for a loop with the first two acts, making you think that Bruce can actually be happy, but then... Well, I don't want to spoil it. But this little oddity is a heck of a watch anyhow.

"Beware the Creeper"- See! Harley! But ooh, do I like this episode. The Creeper is basically the Joker with better, less deadly gags, which makes sense, since they share a similar origin. It's fun to watch all the way through, having a good combination of humor and action.

"Judgment Day"- As a finale or even just a regular episode in general, this is okay, nothing earth-shattering, but ultimately just not that strong or memorable. Which is sadly disappointing.

I don't really care too much for the last episode, but the last disc is the best of the 4 here. Sadly, the show wasn't the same here. Without the neo-noir elements or title cards, both of which were among the things to make B:TAS stand out, the atmosphere is mostly gone. It also feels like Timm, Dini and the gang were more interested in Superman at this point, which is why TNBA probably suffers as a result.

Mad Love easily ranks with the best in the series.

What's next on the list, Avaitor?

EDIT:

Judgement Day is nothing special but I forgive it because it's not really Batman's finale.

Judgement Day would have worked if either Harvey died or Two Face never came back. Since it was the last episode we'll never really know if he came back, but I would like to think it was the end of Two Face in the DCAU.

To echo Talon, what are you doing next?

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 04, 2014, 08:03:02 PM
Judgement Day would have worked if either Harvey died or Two Face never came back. Since it was the last episode we'll never really know if he came back, but I would like to think it was the end of Two Face in the DCAU.

Kind of a sad and lonely end for a man who had a chance.

Quote from: talonmalon333 on March 04, 2014, 08:32:12 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 04, 2014, 08:03:02 PM
Judgement Day would have worked if either Harvey died or Two Face never came back. Since it was the last episode we'll never really know if he came back, but I would like to think it was the end of Two Face in the DCAU.

Kind of a sad and lonely end for a man who had a chance.

Either he finally gets better or dies, either way going on as Two Face forever would be a worse fate.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 04, 2014, 08:54:25 PM

Quote from: talonmalon333 on March 04, 2014, 08:32:12 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 04, 2014, 08:03:02 PM
Judgement Day would have worked if either Harvey died or Two Face never came back. Since it was the last episode we'll never really know if he came back, but I would like to think it was the end of Two Face in the DCAU.

Kind of a sad and lonely end for a man who had a chance.

Either he finally gets better or dies, either way going on as Two Face forever would be a worse fate.

I agree. That's why I say Judgement Day is a sad episode to end his arc with. He's just left behind bars still lost in madness.

Quote from: talonmalon333 on March 04, 2014, 08:58:18 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 04, 2014, 08:54:25 PM

Quote from: talonmalon333 on March 04, 2014, 08:32:12 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 04, 2014, 08:03:02 PM
Judgement Day would have worked if either Harvey died or Two Face never came back. Since it was the last episode we'll never really know if he came back, but I would like to think it was the end of Two Face in the DCAU.

Kind of a sad and lonely end for a man who had a chance.

Either he finally gets better or dies, either way going on as Two Face forever would be a worse fate.

I agree. That's why I say Judgement Day is a sad episode to end his arc with. He's just left behind bars still lost in madness.

True. Though it's been awhile since I saw it but I recall Harvey saying he was going to get real help this time and see it through at the end. I'd like to believe that he did.

That last disc is full of winners, imo. I suppose "Judgement Day" is a disappointing finale episode for the series, but as a closer to Harvey/Two-Face's arc in the DCAU, I think it's pretty potent stuff.

At the end of the day, I think those final few episodes closed BTAS on a high note. Considering that TNBA was so inconsistent, it was a good thing they didn't make more episodes and focused on Beyond and Superman.

If I remember correctly, you were going to do Justice League next, right? I'll be interested in your thoughts on that series as well.  :)

He's going through season 1? Ouch.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 04, 2014, 09:01:46 PM

Quote from: talonmalon333 on March 04, 2014, 08:58:18 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 04, 2014, 08:54:25 PM

Quote from: talonmalon333 on March 04, 2014, 08:32:12 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 04, 2014, 08:03:02 PM
Judgement Day would have worked if either Harvey died or Two Face never came back. Since it was the last episode we'll never really know if he came back, but I would like to think it was the end of Two Face in the DCAU.

Kind of a sad and lonely end for a man who had a chance.

Either he finally gets better or dies, either way going on as Two Face forever would be a worse fate.

I agree. That's why I say Judgement Day is a sad episode to end his arc with. He's just left behind bars still lost in madness.

True. Though it's been awhile since I saw it but I recall Harvey saying he was going to get real help this time and see it through at the end. I'd like to believe that he did.

I think the villains who I always believed deserved the most closure (putting aside the Joker, who's the main villain and obviously gets an entire Batman Beyond movie for closure) were Two-Face, Mr. Freeze, and Harley, as they are the most sympathetic of the main villains. Freeze's arc does get a conclusion (though a sad one), and as we see in Return of the Joker, Harley got the conclusion we wanted for her. She is shown to have long since given up crime and even scolds her grandchildren for doing wrong. We don't see what happened to Two-Face, however. But like you say, hopefully he was one day saved.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 04, 2014, 09:14:14 PM
He's going through season 1? Ouch.

I think JL season 1 is better than New Batman Adventures.

Quote from: talonmalon333 on March 04, 2014, 07:52:49 PM
What's next on the list, Avaitor?

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 04, 2014, 08:03:02 PM
To echo Talon, what are you doing next?

Quote from: Cartoon X on March 04, 2014, 09:12:08 PM
If I remember correctly, you were going to do Justice League next, right? I'll be interested in your thoughts on that series as well.  :)

Yeah, that's probably next, although if you could tell by my last couple of posts, I was getting kind of tired of these by the end. That's mostly because TNBA is so mediocre, though.

Although I do want to see a couple of Unlimited episodes again before I start Justice League up. I remember even less of that part of the show than I do certain episodes here. And I kind of want to switch these up with something non-super hero related, but I can't think of anything else which would grab the site's attention.

The Simpsons comes to mind, but I don't have the earliest seasons and I wouldn't know where to stop, plus I'm hella rusty at a lot of points of the show. Futurama, maybe, although I'd rather get the chance to sit myself down and watch the last season-ish before I do. I can't think of anything else, really. I don't think a more serialized show like Gargoyles would fit here, EK, CartoonX or someone else would be more of an appropriate choice for South Park, and there isn't as much interest in most other series on here.

For The Simpsons I would stop at season 10. That's the first overly flawed season and the last one that has more hits than misses (even if barely).

But I could go for some Justice League, though I don't think season 1 would leave you with much to say.

Hmm, I dunno, I think Gargoyles could work in this format. Even though the show has ongoing character and story arcs it's structured with mostly self-contained episodes, so I think it'd be easy enough to talk about each episode.

What about Ed, Edd, n' Eddy Avaitor? We all know how much you love that show and I'm sure you've watched it more than enough times to have something great to say about most episodes. I think it could work in this format just as well as anything else. For that matter, so could any other Cartoon Cartoon, Nicktoon, Disney Afternoon series, etc. You don't have to limit yourself to just adult sitcoms and action series. I think you have a lot of choices you could talk well about.  :)

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 04, 2014, 10:14:59 PM
For The Simpsons I would stop at season 10. That's the first overly flawed season and the last one that has more hits than misses (even if barely).

I'd go until season 11 myself, just to close with "Behind the Laughter." I wish that was where the series ended, honestly.

Quote from: Cartoon X on March 04, 2014, 10:22:42 PM
What about Ed, Edd, n' Eddy Avaitor? We all know how much you love that show and I'm sure you've watched it more than enough times to have something great to say about most episodes. I think it could work in this format just as well as anything else. For that matter, so could any other Cartoon Cartoon, Nicktoon, Disney Afternoon series, etc. You don't have to limit yourself to just adult sitcoms and action series. I think you have a lot of choices you could talk well about.  :)

The thing is, though, usually action shows and animated comedies for older audiences are what attracts people on here more, from what I've noticed. I'd love to talk about DuckTales or Darkwing Duck or TaleSpin, but I'm not sure who'd be interested on here besides you and Spark.

And I actually want to go back to my Cartoon Cartoon series, now that you mention it. With at least the first seasons being available on Netflix now, it'll be easier to find Dexter and PPG in full for me.

As long as it's not something like Foster's I could go with anything.

Quote from: Cartoon X on March 04, 2014, 10:22:42 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 04, 2014, 10:14:59 PM
For The Simpsons I would stop at season 10. That's the first overly flawed season and the last one that has more hits than misses (even if barely).

I'd go until season 11 myself, just to close with "Behind the Laughter." I wish that was where the series ended, honestly.

But then he would have to watch the rest of season 11. (Yuck)

I really, really dislike season 11 and 12.

Yeah, those are the pits.

I can't really think of too many animated series I have in full though. Besides the DCAU shows (also excluding Beyond), all I can think of are Daria and Freakazoid!

I heard that, initially, Mask of the Phantasm was supposed to mark the end of Batman: The Animated Series. Can anyone confirm if this is true or not?

That would be news to me if true.

Forgot to respond here. Anyway, I heard this news from GSF.

Quote from: gunswordfist on October 28, 2013, 03:58:12 PMBTAS got renewed after MOTP and that movie was supposed to be the end of that series so by no means did it die fast to make room for Batman Beyond.

I remember I used to think that Mask of the Phantasm was intended to be the last story in Batman TAS, chronologically. To me, it always seemed like that movie marked the end of the Joker, where Andrea held him in that explosion and the last we hear of him is his laughter. Probably because it felt like a fitting end to the Joker, him going out laughing. This was before I saw Return of the Joker.

Hmmm, was The Joker supposed to be dead there and then they retconned it? I always assumed he escaped. You guys are really making me want to complete the series and rewatch the movies.

I always assumed she didn't kill him because Bruce asked her not to and it was the last thing she could do for him.

Quote from: gunswordfist on March 14, 2014, 02:52:35 AM
Hmmm, was The Joker supposed to be dead there and then they retconned it? I always assumed he escaped. You guys are really making me want to complete the series and rewatch the movies.

I'm saying that's what I believed when I was younger.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 14, 2014, 10:59:14 AM
I always assumed she didn't kill him because Bruce asked her not to and it was the last thing she could do for him.

Well as we see, the Joker survived, so maybe she did do that.

I always assumed that it took place before TAOB&R and probably after the original 65 episode order, which would explain the lack of Robin.

Quote from: Avaitor on March 14, 2014, 12:48:39 PM
I always assumed that it took place before TAOB&R and probably after the original 65 episode order, which would explain the lack of Robin.

That's what I think these days.

Mask of the Phantasm = Pre-TAMB&R
Sub Zero = Pre-TNBA
Mystery of the Batwoman = Post-TNBA

Sub-Zero has to take place closer to the end of TAOB&R rather than anywhere near the beginning of TNBA, because

1- Dick is still Robin
2- He and Barbara have a relationship- in "Old Wounds", we find out just why that was never meant to be
3- Barb doesn't know about Bruce or Dick's identities yet (to my recollection- it's been a while since I last saw it)
4- And of course, no Tim

I just assumed that it happened after TAOB&R but before Grayson quits.

Though the episodes of this series seem to always happen in the order of when they were created, so when I think about it, I imagine the movies are the same way alongside the episodes (Mask of the Phantasm likely happens after season 1 but before season 2, because that's when it was released). Problem is, Sub Zero was released years after its creation, and I can't find exactly when it was actually made and initially intended to be released.

75 years. :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFwOS2R9o_8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFwOS2R9o_8)

I was just thinking...

Alfred's "No One Could have Pulled Andrea from that Pit" Speech After Andrea's "Death" (Mask of the Phantasm) >>>>> Alfred's "You spat in the face of crime" Speech after Rachel's Death (The Dark Knight)

Rachel sucked anyway.

Okay, so I rewatched "Judgement Day" not too long ago, and I was wrong. It's a lot better than I remembered. And probably a good place for the final BTAS episode.

Quote from: Avaitor on April 23, 2014, 12:32:09 PM
Okay, so I rewatched "Judgement Day" not too long ago, and I was wrong. It's a lot better than I remembered. And probably a good place for the final BTAS episode.

:thumbup:

Since Two Face never appeared after that in any DCAU show, I like to think that Harvey really was cured.

I probably fall in between your previous and your current opinion, Avaitor. I think it's better than you originally gave it credit for, but I think they could've done better for a final episode.

Though I do remember one episode that ends with Harvey Dent talking to Batman saying that he's always been there for him and that he's going to try to find a way to get cured. Was that in Judgement Day? If so, then I take back my complaint.

I do give the episode a free pass cause it's really not the final episode, if you think about it. Though I wish we knew for sure what happened to Harvey.

The implication behind Judgement Day is that Two Face can't continue on. Harvey's sense of justice will kill him if he does, and the only way to stop it is for him to regain control of himself. The ending has Harvey telling Batman he will seek help to try and stop it. As a final episode it might not be perfect, but for Two Face's arc, I think it was one of the best.

To be honest, if Two Face actually did appear again after that episode it would have ruined it.

Yeah, I think I'm fine with this being the last episode of the show as an end to Two-Face's arc. We weren't done with this incarnation of Batman, so I'm glad that we didn't get a more specific finish for his story.

Although maybe something about Nightwing might have been better. It was hinted that Dick and Bruce's relationship worsened off even more, but we never got to know more.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on April 23, 2014, 01:31:49 PM
The implication behind Judgement Day is that Two Face can't continue on. Harvey's sense of justice will kill him if he does, and the only way to stop it is for him to regain control of himself. The ending has Harvey telling Batman he will seek help to try and stop it. As a final episode it might not be perfect, but for Two Face's arc, I think it was one of the best.

To be honest, if Two Face actually did appear again after that episode it would have ruined it.

When in the ending does Harvey tell Batman that? Are you sure you're not thinking of Second Chance?

Quote from: Avaitor on April 23, 2014, 06:09:11 PM
We weren't done with this incarnation of Batman, so I'm glad that we didn't get a more specific finish for his story.

That's why, like I mentioned, it's really not the last episode. We still have countless episodes of Justice League and Beyond for Batman to appear in.

Though it's worth noting that, in the Justice Lords world, Two-Face still exists (which apparently exists further in the future compared to the Justice League world). But it's possible that they lobotomized him before he even got a chance to get help, which is one of the great tragedies of that world.

Quote from: Avaitor on April 23, 2014, 06:09:11 PMAlthough maybe something about Nightwing might have been better. It was hinted that Dick and Bruce's relationship worsened off even more, but we never got to know more.

Didn't they suggest that Nightwing is trying to come to terms with forgiveness toward Batman for everything that happened between them?

Yeah, in the Justice Lords world, he probably wasn't in the mood to give Harvey help.

As for the ending of Judgement Day, I remember a conversation of some sort near the end that implied if he didn't address his problem, it would kill him.

Quote from: talonmalon333 on April 23, 2014, 08:38:59 PM
Didn't they suggest that Nightwing is trying to come to terms with forgiveness toward Batman for everything that happened between them?

Yeah, in TNBA. But Barbara mentions something about how Nightwing was another crazy story later on like Tim Drake in Return of the Joker, which had me wondering.

Quote from: Avaitor on April 23, 2014, 08:46:45 PM

Quote from: talonmalon333 on April 23, 2014, 08:38:59 PM
Didn't they suggest that Nightwing is trying to come to terms with forgiveness toward Batman for everything that happened between them?

Yeah, in TNBA. But Barbara mentions something about how Nightwing was another crazy story later on like Tim Drake in Return of the Joker, which had me wondering.

I think the line was "Look up Nightwing sometime, he's got stories."

I think it was just a vague reference to some of the things he went through as Robin before becoming his own hero as Nightwing.

Hmm, possibly. I dunno, I would've liked some sort of closure for Dick, since he never shows up after TNBA ends. He wasn't even in Mystery of the Batwoman.

RIP Efrem Zimbalist Jr. (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/efrem-zimbalist-jr-dead-star-700983)

we're losing them all rapidly, and damn, it sucks. RIP

One of the developers of Mega Man 2.5 has made a Batman 75th Anniversary animated short: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=706WrfzK_3U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=706WrfzK_3U)

And now we've lost Bob Hastings, the voice of Gordon. RIP

Oh no...R.I.P.

Damn, RIP.

Holy shit, look at this! (http://blog.mondotees.com/2014/07/16/batman-the-animated-series-7-inch/)

Aw man, I wish I could get one of those. Or something by Mondo in general. I love their designs.

Wow. Need. (http://mondotees.com/blogs/news/65613379-batman-the-animated-series-vinyl-box-set)

Those are gorgeous.  :shakeshakeshake:

Mask of the Phantasm is coming to Blu-Ray! (https://www.facebook.com/warnerarchive/photos/a.275238161562.177744.205910361562/10155419794031563)

I saw, and I'm excited!

It's not looking like they got to make the collector's edition Timm and co wanted to, but it'll be worth the purchase just to have it in HD.

Series Blu-Ray coming next year. (https://twitter.com/BatmanNewsCom/status/917136441225949184)

I'm at the point of my B:TAS rewatch where I've finished the pre-Adventures of Batman & Robin episodes, which means that I'm finally trying out my Blu of Mask of the Phantasm.

Damn, this looks good. The movie's as terrific as ever, too.

I haven't picked up the Blu set yet, and I'm not sure if I will, since I already spent a decent amount to get the series on DVD, and rewatched the whole thing not too long ago. What I've seen does look like it's worth the upgrade if I was made of money, but I won't be able to get to it anytime soon.

However, I did go to Fathom Event's screening of MOTP on Monday. If I have to make a complaint, it's that seeing it on the big screen really shows off the film's limitations in animation- it's very apparent that it was made for video, and despite some strong moments it comes off as a little dim. Besides that, I had a great time. All of the beats hit just as well, if not better, on a big screen with a decent crowd in attendance. I think the sound quality was especially on point- besides the score, you just get a chance to appreciate the brilliant voice work in the film. Conray, Delany, and Zimbalist's performances especially sell it.

I'd do it again, primarily if I could convince someone to come with me. I had a great time solo, but it's worth going to with an audience.

According to rumors, the engine's revving up again on BTAS. (https://hypebeast.com/2021/1/batman-the-animated-series-sequel-adventure-continues-hbo-max-rumor-info)

Don't know how to feel. It'll probably be fun to watch if they bring back all the old writers and Timm doesn't put in a Bruce/Barbara romance, but I think the show's had its time and that time's passed. If they make a Batman cartoon, I'd want it to either go in a radical direction or play with or distill the Batman comic runs that came out since BTAS and the DCAU ended. Such as taking the best parts and ideas of the Morrison, Snyder, and King runs and refining that into its own cartoon. While time and writers mining it for themes and references have turned BTAS into the traditional Batman series for better and worse, and I'm afraid bringing back the show means it won't be the spearhead in innovating Batman like it used to, and it'll just be the Batman show that reminds you of a show I watched as a kid. Even back two decades ago, ending TNBA on their own terms and starting up Batman Beyond was their way of saying you can't do BTAS-style adventures forever without changing up the formula. It's like when rumors about bringing back the 90s X-Men show happened a couple months ago, where that could be fun, but it sounded like such a huge step backward compared to the Hickman train X-fans are currently riding on. I don't want the band to come back together if all they're doing is singing old songs. I want them to reignite the flame and make a show that could break as much new ground now as the show did back in the early 90s.

I'm pretty much of the same mind. On the one hand it's neat to see something great from the past make a comeback, especially since the DCAU Batman is my favorite iteration of that character. Furthermore, they would have a bit less restrictions in terms of censorship than they used to. That said, I then remember that I don't trust modern Bruce Timm at all to make something that isn't about exploiting how dark or gritty it is, and he will probably be heavily involved with this. Also, looking at the Batman and Harley Quinn movie doesn't exactly leave me optimistic as to what the actual returning series will look like.

Yeah, most of what Timm has done in recent years, primarily the pieces with mixed ties to the DCAU, gives me any confidence in this going well. The fact that a significant portion of the cast is no more also hurts my enthusiasm. Although I'd be more interested if this was just a short or even a movie, but a whole new season or two sounds like it'll do more harm than good.

I'd be be more interested in returning to Batman Beyond, but even that I can take or leave. The DCAU's time in the light has passed, and I'm honestly pretty okay with it. Warner/DC seemed to be as well, until B:TAS has recently started to make them some nice nostalgia-oriented money.

I mean, I think with regularly putting Conroy and Hamill on Batman projects, and having Dini writing Batman things like the Arkham games and the recent Adventure Continues comic, they always had their finger on the button when it came to making more BTAS. It was just a matter of when than if. And I did ask myself why they never made a Batman Beyond sequel or series of movies. Was it really more important and lucrative to keep making those DC Animated Movies instead?

And if we are just bringing back the DCAU, can't we do something we didn't do prior? Finally give Diana her own show, do something with all those Milestone characters besides Static, or something off the wall like Books of Magic or Seven Soldiers of Victory?

Now that I think about it, it's a little surprising that they're going back to smaller scales with B:TAS after each season of Justice League was bigger than the last. That may be a good thing though, as JLU did get exhausting, although I do much prefer it to how Young Justice turned out.

I would like to see them try other characters instead, but it makes the most sense to go back to what they and everyone else knows and loves with Batman. I do wonder if they'll go back to the noir-ish elements of the earlier episodes, or stick to something closer to TNBA.

Probably since McDuffie died and he was the one steering the wheel on JLU, and they're likely JL'd out after all those DTV movies.

I think going back to basics is a double-edged sword. It'll likely sell well and appeal to the traditional Batman fans, but you don't want to go too far in the "It's weekdays afternoons in 1992 all over again!", because if you put too much effort in making stories that feel like the old episodes, you end up fueling the question of why the viewers shouldn't watch reruns instead. And since we know how DCAU Bruce's story ultimately culminates, and it's hard to think of any interesting enough gaps in his timeline that are worth covering, there's also the pitfall in making retroactive filler.

I guess if there's a gap worth exploring, you could do something like what the Batman/Catwoman comic by Tom King is doing right now, make a show that takes place between the end of JLU and the beginning of Batman Beyond featuring a Bruce who burns bridges with his old friends, while showing occasional flash forward episodes to after BB showing it wasn't all for naught and he can finally break bread with Dick, Selina, and Diana, scenes that BB and JLU's future episodes neglected to do. Something more character-driven and somber, but still with plenty of action in-between. Really doubt that's something WB wants to do though. It'll likely be more in the style of TNBA, but they add in Damian or something.

Quote from: Avaitor on January 21, 2021, 04:32:44 PM
Now that I think about it, it's a little surprising that they're going back to smaller scales with B:TAS after each season of Justice League was bigger than the last. That may be a good thing though, as JLU did get exhausting, although I do much prefer it to how Young Justice turned out.

I would like to see them try other characters instead, but it makes the most sense to go back to what they and everyone else knows and loves with Batman. I do wonder if they'll go back to the noir-ish elements of the earlier episodes, or stick to something closer to TNBA.

Yeah, sad to say but while I liked YJ's first two seasons, Season Three just spread the show's scale out far too wide. It's also bloated with way too many characters. I still say the 2nd time skip did absolutely nothing. It'd be nice if Season 4 only happens a few weeks after the end of 3 but I'm not holding my breath. And GregX was way wrong about The Light, they still suck.

The problem with the Light beyond how much they over rely on the "the heroes think they won, but their actions were secretly part of our plan" cliche is they're built on reveals rather than characterization ever since season 1. Half of the first season covered them in silhouettes before revealing the master villains of this DC show are people like Lex and Vandal, and their master plan is to conquer the galaxy, and one of their secrets is their working for and planning to backstab Darkseid. And the show plays all these up to be surprises like it's supposed to be a twist that it's Lex Luthor of all people who wants any of this done. YJ isn't a show that plays fast and loose with the DC mythos. It just takes the typical "Justice League and their young allies fight the Legion of Doom" plot but stretched to at least four whole seasons. And that would be okay on its own, but such a formula lives and dies on the characters, and characters aren't this show's strong suit in lieu of most of the character development happening during time skips or shifts in personality happening due to an overuse of mind control.

I will never understand Greg Weisman's or Brandon Vietti's logic in doing the time skips. Robbing us of the characterizations as you mentioned robbed of us of so much tension. Oh, Tula aka Aquagirl sacrificed herself? Wow, can't wait for the usual flashback when that episode com---oh, what's that??? I have to buy a PS3 game with PS1 graphics just to know what happened to her? Yeah, I sure was torn up over her even though we only had one episode.

Seriously, it was only a few episodes later they revealed Aqualad didn't even defect so her being dead at zero lasting weight over any of the cast which means she might as well have been left alive or just not brought up in the first place. Then there's how much a waste of time they did with Ocean Master. So much tension and genuine emotion could have been explored from his connection to Aqualad's mentor and what his reactions along with his finding out that Black Manta was his father. Nope, neither happens. The latter happening offscreen was obscene. I still like Invasion overall, but that mess rendering Ocean Master completely useless culminating in him being uncermoniusly killed off in two seconds in his one appearance in the Outsiders irks me.

Describing Caped Crusader as "More BTAS than BTAS!" sounds intriguing but also concerning. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvvNnmgeI5Y) BTAS was never a show that relied on excess.

Quote from: Peanutbutter on January 22, 2021, 10:20:37 AMAnd GregX was way wrong about The Light, they still suck.

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/828672479991824424/900123686751830026/2fb4f914-1550-46bd-aef8-9fc7208fd8d2.png)

Ach, leave me out of this. It's time for 'Succession'.

So Brubaker's the head writer of Caped Crusader. (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/batman-caped-crusader-ed-brubaker-1235071480/)

Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on January 07, 2022, 05:10:54 PM
So Brubaker's the head writer of Caped Crusader. (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/batman-caped-crusader-ed-brubaker-1235071480/)

I like Brubaker a lot. A lot.

But J.J. Abrams... I despise. His presence just fills me with dread. I don't know about this, but I'll give it a shot.

I'm not too worried about Abrams, it sounds like he won't have too big of a role. He generally works better as a producer as opposed to when he's actually behind the director's chair.

I'm more concerned about Timm, since it really feels like his judgement has gone off the deep end in recent years. He really needs someone with a clearer head to balance him out, like Dini or Alan Burnett. Hoping Brubaker will do just that.

To be fair to Timm, it's been a while since he's produced a TV show, and I remember GLTAS was well-liked. Making TV shows and making movies, even DTV movies, require different creative muscles. Think of how many really good TV showrunners make a movie, and it's either got holes in it or it's mediocre.

Had no idea where to put this since he's been in thousands of things, and his portrayal of Ra's was a mere drip in the bucket that was his career ranging from Sam Peckinpah films to Doctor Who radio plays, and of course all his countless villain roles in 90s cartoons, but RIP David Warner. (https://twitter.com/Markgatiss/status/1551528475512766465)

For a while, I've thought about how the cartoons of the 90s/early 00s were defined by having characters played by Warner, Curry, and/or Jay show up to terrorize the main characters. It was always that trifecta of classically trained actors. And now that Warner and Jay have passed and Curry retired from that stroke, that era's gone.

Warner's had a hell of a career, but Ra's al Ghul and The Lobe will always be among the first roles that come to mind for me.

And we haven't quite had something like that trifecta since, have we? Granted, there are a couple of actors who have done notable villain work from the 90's and since, like Mark Hamill, Clancy Brown and Keith David, but they're a little more sporadic in those roles and don't have quite the same background.

I guess Malcolm McDowell. He fits the same mold as them of being a Shakespearean actor playing cartoon villains on a regular basis, regardless if the cartoon's any good. Lena Headey too.

So yeah, in case anybody hasn't heard, Caped Crusader will probably a Hulu/Netflix/Apple show in the future because of WB's ongoing implosion. And while it's cool it's still coming out, WB abandoning a Batman series with Matt Reeves and JJ Abrams on it is one of the most confusing decisions they've made in the past few weeks.

I wouldn't be surprised if this comes back to HBO Max after Zaslav is (soon, hopefully) laid off. But this just shows how he and his crew undervalue not just animation, but entertainment as a whole.

To honor the occasion, Matt Draper released his list of Top 30 BTAS episodes. (https://youtu.be/I7g2dSt9410)

God fucking damn it, Kevin Conroy's gone. (https://twitter.com/LightsCameraPod/status/1591095170355040256)

This one hurts.

Maybe we should do that B:TAS retrospective after all. I initially walked back from that idea since I already have a lot going on and struggle to find time to watch The Simpsons and Buffy.

I know it's always sad news whenever we hear of the passing of a beloved icon, but this one in particular hits me on an emotional level given how big a part of my adolescent years he was as "My Batman" be it in BTAS, Batman Beyond, or JLU, and even if I was mostly just lukewarm on them, I loved hearing him in the Arkham games as well.

This is going to sit with me for a while. Hopefully his family and loved ones manage to cope with the loss.

In hindsight, the comic of his DC published back in June feels like a self-eulogy now.

In case nobody's listened to it yet, Michael Rosenbaum did an interview with Kevin Conroy on his podcast a couple years ago. (https://youtu.be/cUONQUoWLzs)

Caped Crusader finds a new home- Prime. (https://deadline.com/2023/03/batman-caped-crusader-two-season-order-amazon-1235284055/?fbclid=IwAR3uE1ZW1cXsFiZecM5XtQAZKgNI6Eh3mvlId-FyeZVvHUsqq1bHI7R1OtY)

With the recent passing of Michael Reaves, now's as good of a time as any to ask if there is interest in trying that weekly BTAS retrospective we mentioned before? Marqus and I are interested in giving it a shot if there's enough people who are willing to tag along. This will only be one episode at a time, maybe just an informal post on here how you feel about it, similar to what we did with YYH a few years ago.

I wouldn't mind reading what you and Marcus have to say about the episodes of BTAS. I think it would be interesting

May her memory be a blessing. (https://www.superherohype.com/news/545532-arleen-sorkin-passes-away-harley-quinn)

This one hurt, especially as she wasn't able to voice Harley for years despite the role being tailor-made for her. She's still the best to do it.

R.I.P. Richard Moll (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/richard-moll-dead-night-court-bull-1235630482)

At this point, I'm worried that we won't have any of the cast or crew left by the 40th anniversary. The amount of talent we've lost over the years is staggering, and just proves why it's impossible to recreate the original show's magic again.

I found Moll's Two-Face to be nearly as iconic and definitive as Hamill's Joker, and he arguably had a better track record in terms of episodes. Not only was his Two-Face menacing and memorable, but he was just as good at dividing the villain and Harvey as Conroy was Batman and Bruce.