Dragon Ball

Started by Dr. Ensatsu-ken, August 13, 2013, 12:13:17 PM

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Dr. Ensatsu-ken

I figured that I'd just rank the arcs inthe series in order of my least favorite to my favorite.

12. Cell
11. Fortuneteller Baba
10. 23rd Budokai Tenkaichi
9. Emperor Pilaf
8. Turtle Hermit Training
7. Majin Buu
6. 21st Budokai Tenkaichi
5. 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi
4. King Piccolo
3. Namek
2. Saiyan
1. Red Ribbon Army

LumRanmaYasha

For me, it's:

11. Artificial Human
10. Emperor Pilaf
9. Fortuneteller Baba
8. 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai
7. 21st Tenkaichi Budokai (I do not consider the training with Master Roshi as a separate arc)
6. King Piccolo
5. 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai
4. Majin Buu
3. Saiyan
2. Red Ribbon Army
1. Namek

Dr. Ensatsu-ken

I should point out that, for such a long series, it holds a great distinction of not having any downright bad story arcs, so long as we're talking about the manga. The Cell Saga is lackluster more than it is bad, and even that arc has its highlights, like the mystery elements in the first third, and Future Trunks, who is an awesome character and has arguably one of the coolest introduction scenes of any character in any manga that I've ever read.

Everything else ranges from good to great. And yes, the Majin Buu arc is great in the manga.

Spark Of Spirit

12. Cell
11. Fortuneteller Baba
10. Majin Buu
9. 23rd Budokai Tenkaichi
8. Emperor Pilaf
7. Turtle Hermit Training
6. 21st Budokai Tenkaichi
5. Saiyan
4. 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi
3. Namek
2. Red Ribbon Army
1. King Piccolo

Hard to choose, but a lot of great stuff.
"The world will never starve for want of wonders, but for want of wonder." - G.K. Chesterton

Dr. Ensatsu-ken

BTW, Were you guys aware that we're in the minority on not caring for the Cell Saga all that much? The general DB fan base actually considers it to be one of the best arcs in the series. Mind you, most of see people are bigger fans of DBZ than they are of DB's early arcs, but even then, I've seen plenty of people who claim that it's the best arc in the series, even better than Namek, which personally I'll never be able to understand.

Spark Of Spirit

I liked portions of the Cell saga. Future Trunks, Cell's first form, Gohan saving the day, the android stuff, and especially 16. But I don't really like where any of it ended up.
"The world will never starve for want of wonders, but for want of wonder." - G.K. Chesterton

Dr. Ensatsu-ken

The first third of the Cell Saga (like, before Cell was actually revealed), was actually quite good. Tying it back with the RRA arc (my favorite arc in the series) was cool, the Androids were very unique villains who were both legitimately threatening AND also a ton of fun to watch, Future Trunks was an interesting new character and brought both the concepts of time travel and alternate Universes into the series (which are VERY comic book-esque plots) and the mystery element building up to Cell's reveal were actually really intriguing. On top of that, Cell was actually a very interesting villain at first with a lot of potential.

....Unfortunately that potential was completely wasted as he just boiled down to a villain who wanted to beat everyone else just to prove that he was the strongest. The only people who could even stand a chance against him were Super Saiyans, and the fights themselves just felt boring and dragged out. To me, the only saving graces past the first third were Android 16, Mr. Satan, Piccolo fusing with Kami in a genuinely sentimental moment, that one scene where Tien (an actual human character) manages to risk his life to successfully hold off Cell, and the ending where Gohan kills Cell in place of Goku (and Vegeta helps). Everything else was just so fucking boring and tedious to read (or watch).

LumRanmaYasha

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on December 24, 2014, 03:28:13 PM
BTW, Were you guys aware that we're in the minority on not caring for the Cell Saga all that much? The general DB fan base actually considers it to be one of the best arcs in the series.

...You mean to say you weren't aware of that until recently?  :P

Anyways, the part of the Cell Saga that doesn't work for me is the last third. Cell was interesting in his imperfect form, where he had to use guile and trickery to evade the heroes until he was strong enough to fight them head on and absorb the androids, and then later to exploit Vegeta's ego to let him achieve his perfect form. But once he becomes Perfect Cell...that's it. He had no motivation beyond achieving his final form. So while I can believe he might have wanted to test his power, he just had no reason to want to destroy the earth/conquer the galaxy/whatever that vague threat that was somehow written about him came to be. And that, and the fact he pretty much loses any personality beyond acting like Freeza 2.0 except less effective, just made him uninteresting. Not to mention that the premise of the Cell Games was a complete waste of time. The only characters who could fight Cell were Goku and Gohan anyway. It was basically a set-up for the sake of writing a way for the characters to meet and fight in a not random way. The only thing that comes out of it was the introduction of Mr. Satan, and even then, that could've probably have been done in some other way. Also, I'm sorry, but Gohan suddenly becoming the hero at the last minute does not work as well as it should have. It was only set up in maybe two scenes within like 20 chapters before the reveal when Gohan was otherwise minimally involved in the arc up until that point and hadn't even met Cell until the day of the Cell Game. There were good moments to the final battle, and Android 16's sacrifice and Gohan's transformation into SS2 is one of the best scenes in the series, but the whole thing feels thrown in at the last minute just to get the arc to a conclusion. The Cell saga has a lot of writing moments like that, where things go in one direction but then swerve for no reason in another. Buu was like that too, but with Buu, partially because Toriyama wasn't taking the story too seriously, it worked out pretty well for the most part to the point only the fact Gohan was subbed for Goku as the hero of the arc in the last third is noticeable as something not being planned beforehand. With the arc, the points where Toriyama just changed things up at the last minute come across at lot more obvious, imo, and that doesn't do it any favors. I still like the Cell arc overall, but it's just the weakest put together and Perfect Cell is a plain and disappointing villain who's only redeeming qualities are his iconic voice and design, and that's why it's my least favorite overall.


Spark Of Spirit

I'm not saying I liked the way Gohan was set up to save the day. Heavens, no. That was some of the worst stuff in the arc that got him to that point.

I just like the fact that he was the one to do it.
"The world will never starve for want of wonders, but for want of wonder." - G.K. Chesterton

Dr. Ensatsu-ken

#54
Actually, as someone who doesn't like DBZ as an anime, to its one credit it managed to improve on the Cell arc in 2 small ways. One was about how Gohan was the one to defeat Cell. There were a lot of added scenes and filler in the anime that effectively foreshadowed that Gohan would undergo a massive increase in power, and also hinted that Goku himself was realizing Gohan's untapped potential as they were training together. It felt less out of left-field than it did in the manga, IMO.

The other minor improvement is how Goku is actually portrayed negatively in having forced this burden on his son so suddenly in the first place. In the manga he's basically telling his own kid out of nowhere that now he has to save the world on a moment's notice, and that he has to fight an opponent on a level that is way above anything that he had ever even come close to facing before. In the anime Piccolo actually scolds and criticizes Goku for this (which is so appropriate considering his relationship with Gohan), and as I recall, Goku even shows some regret at this decision in a "what have I done?" sort of way at the point that Gohan is getting his ass kicked.

Of course, the anime being Toei's usual fair manages to screw up a lot of other things, so it doesn't really make the arc any better in the long-run, but since you brought up that criticism, I just thought that it'd be fair to point out the one thing that Toei's adaptation did right.

Spark Of Spirit

Another thing I wasn't a fan of is that the Cell Saga was so focused on one on one fights (for obvious reasons, but still) to the detriment of said fights. They were all pretty much the same thing over and over.

Nothing like Raditz Vs. Goku and Piccolo; Nappa Vs. Gohan, Tien, Piccolo, and Krillin; Vegeta Vs. Goku, Gohan, Yajirobe, and Krillin; or The Ginyu Force Vs. Vegeta, Gohan, Krillin, and Goku. It says a lot, but those are basically my favorite fights in the Z half of the series.
"The world will never starve for want of wonders, but for want of wonder." - G.K. Chesterton

Dr. Ensatsu-ken

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on December 24, 2014, 10:27:50 PMI'm not saying I liked the way Gohan was set up to save the day. Heavens, no. That was some of the worst stuff in the arc that got him to that point.

I just like the fact that he was the one to do it.

While there was really no set-up for it inthe manga, it doesn't really bother me as much as you guys.

Toriyama is the king of doing things out of left-field.

Need I remind anyone of how he basically reveals that Goku is an alien mid-way into the manga, and that he has an evil brother, and that he comes from a race of warriors who worked for a galactic overlord. Before he destroyed their planet? There were no hints or clues to this at any point earlier in the series because quite frankly Toriyama hadn't thought of it yet. It was just another new story idea when the time came for it, with no build-up whatsoever. And surprisingly....it worked. Just chalk it up to good execution, I guess.

Anyways, my point being that, compared to that, I can hardly complain about something like Gohan surpassing his father, especially since it was at least established (or hinted at) back in the Saiyan arc that his potential was greater that of most pure-blood Saiyans, and that he could surpass his father when he actually overshot his power level at that time to deal a single major blow to Nappa. If we're talking about Deus Ex Machina with Gohan, then it happened way before the Cell arc.

LumRanmaYasha

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on December 24, 2014, 10:36:10 PM
The other minor improvement is how Goku is actually portrayed negatively in having forced this burden on his son so suddenly in the first place. In the manga he's basically telling his own kid out of nowhere that now he has to save the world on a moment's notice, and that he has to fight an opponent on a level that is way above anything that he had ever even come close to facing before. In the anime Piccolo actually scolds and criticizes Goku for this (which is so appropriate considering his relationship with Gohan), and as I recall, Goku even shows some regret at this decision in a "what have I done?" sort of way at the point that Gohan is getting his ass kicked.

...This scene was also in the manga.


Dr. Ensatsu-ken

Honestly, I don't remember that arc in the manga too well, but perhaps I just liked the delivery of it better in the anime (one of the rare cases of that). Either way, my point about the filler and Gohan's limitless potential being pre-established still stand.

Dr. Ensatsu-ken

Top 10 Fights:

10. Gotenks vs. Buu (So underrated; great use of comedy)
9. Goku vs. Tao Pai Pai (all fights)
8. Goku vs. Murasaki
7. Vegeta vs. Freeza
6. Goku vs. King Piccolo
5. Goku vs. Jackie Chun (Master Roshi)
4. Gohan/Krillin/Vegeta vs. Ginyu Force
3. Goku vs. Freeza (pre-SSJ)
2. Goku/Gohan/Krillin/Yajirobe vs. Vegeta
1. Goku vs. Tenshinhan

Honorable Mention: Goku vs. Gohan Sr.

No real surprises, here. Gotenks vs. Buu is my favorite fight from that arc thanks to the excellent use of comedy (even more so than Vegetto vs. Super Buu, IMO). Tao Pai Pai serves as a classic because of how it's the first time some one dies because Goku isn't strong enough. Vegeta fighting Freeza is a really great development for his character because of how one-sided his defeat is. The rest are just classics, IMO. Goku's clash with Tenshinhan is the perfect combination of comedy, strategy, and character development. It has always been and still remains to be the most entertaining fight in the series, to me.