Dragon Ball (All Series)

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Yeah, that was brought up in Bakuman and its not hard to believe that there are certain restrictions like that put up in modern shonen media but I don't think its like a downright written rule. There are still cases of villains dying in shonen manga (and even good guys in some cases as well, like with Hunter X Hunter and One Piece), but I think its something that editors may discourage mangaka to do too much. I don't mind it so much as long as the villains are so boringly 1-dimensional, but unfortunately many of them still seem to have the depth of cardboard for whatever reason, and if I can't sympathize with them then I'd prefer if they just got finished off and died with some shred of bad-ass dignity instead.

[gunswordfist]

What do you mean by Future Goku killing Frieza and his father? Future Trunks does that. Unless you're referring to some spin-off that I'm unaware of, Goku never managed to actually finish Frieza off and he never even met his father (mainly because Future Trunks killed him before Goku even arrived back on Earth).

At any rate, Goku did manage to kill a useless minion or 2 throughout DBZ (such as one of Bobbidy's lackeys, who's name I forget, for example), but yeah other than Kid Buu Goku never actually killed any of the main villains. To be fair he is supposed to be the good guy of the show so I guess it makes sense that he's not a killer. He did at least defeat Frieza and the severe damage that he caused to him delayed him from getting to Earth. He also did manage to severely weaken Vegeta in their initial fight so he was still primarily responsible for saving the world in the Saiyan arc.

I meant Goku from Trunk's future did. And I checked yesterday and Goku killed one of Babibi's (sp?) henchmen named Yanko or some shit. I don't care about their names, fuck the Buu saga.

And I'm not complaining about Goku's lack of kills. I commend DBZ for that. Another part of the show's creativity that probably will never get any credit.

Speaking of kills, I got fucking scared seeing how many people Goku killed in DB and GT. Rule 1 in the DB universe: if Goku's a kid, you're about to get fucked up.

[gunswordfist]

I think he meant the Goku from the universe that Future Trunks came from.

Oh, I see. Well, that's part of an alternate/parallel timeline (as clearly stated by Future Trunks himself), so I don't really think it counts. I suppose one could argue that it does, though.

You're thinking of Yakon, I believe. Yay for useless DBZ knowledge. 

Yeah, that's him alright. Heh, Now that I think about it I believe you're right. Well, I could have sworn that I saw Goku knock off a goon or 2 in some of the plethora of filler material that DBZ had, and maybe in some of the movies as well, which is what I may have been thinking of. But going strictly by canon material, yeah, Yakon is the first villain that he kills in DBZ.

Actually, Goku kills no one in the filler. They even factor that in. In Vegeta's kill list, they name multiple people he killed in filler so here's both for comparison: http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Vegeta's_victims http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Characters_Killed_by_Goku

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Well, I was counting the movies as filler as well (both filler and the films are non-canon, so whatever, it counts as filler), and Goku certainly does kill people in the movies, like Turles and Lord Slug among various others.

[gunswordfist]

Well, I was counting the movies as filler as well (both filler and the films are non-canon, so whatever, it counts as filler), and Goku certainly does kill people in the movies, like Turles and Lord Slug among various others.

And Broly, Janemba, Turles henchmen and Dr. Wheelo and...God, Goku fucks people up in the films.

Anyway, I was just thinking about that. The movies aren't canon. I was also thinking about how the movie that's probably most likely to not likely to be able to fit into the timeline, Garlic Jr., thanks to the fact that Garlic was the only villain to ever be in the show but then again that might have been a filler arc. I have no clue if it counts.

[Dr. Insomniac]

Well, I was counting the movies as filler as well (both filler and the films are non-canon, so whatever, it counts as filler), and Goku certainly does kill people in the movies, like Turles and Lord Slug among various others.

And Broly, Janemba, Turles henchmen and Dr. Wheelo and...God, Goku fucks people up in the films.

Seems to be quite an odd contrast between how Toriyama viewed Goku and how the anime staff did.

[Spark Of Spirit]

And to be honest, most of the ones listed in Dragon Ball were animals he killed to eat... Including Piccolo's men. The only time he really went out for vengeance was the Red Ribbon Army. Even then I think he went out to stop them, not slaughter them. Black put himself in a position where Goku really didn't have much choice.

So yeah, I think Toriyama's always been consistent with the kind of character Goku is.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

And to be honest, most of the ones listed in Dragon Ball were animals he killed to eat... Including Piccolo's men. The only time he really went out for vengeance was the Red Ribbon Army. Even then I think he went out to stop them, not slaughter them. Black put himself in a position where Goku really didn't have much choice.

Actually, he went after Piccolo and his henchmen for revenge, and for the record Yanjirobe was the one who killed and ate one of them, whereas Goku killed the one that killed Krillin.

But, yeah, that and going after the Red Ribbon army were among the only times he killed anyone out of anger. Other than that he only killed when he absolutely had to.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. It was revenge for Krillin.

The Red Ribbon Army simply needed to be stopped. Even if he had valid reasons for revenge on them, I'm pretty sure he went after them because he knew how horrible they were.

[gunswordfist]

Well, I was counting the movies as filler as well (both filler and the films are non-canon, so whatever, it counts as filler), and Goku certainly does kill people in the movies, like Turles and Lord Slug among various others.

And Broly, Janemba, Turles henchmen and Dr. Wheelo and...God, Goku fucks people up in the films.

Seems to be quite an odd contrast between how Toriyama viewed Goku and how the anime staff did.

Makes sense for the movies. People want to see asswhipping handed out in films. I don't mind the contrast and it's not like they can set up something ingenious every time in such a short amount of time in each film.

[gunswordfist]

I've been loving the beginning of the Androids Saga. A few weeks ago I watched it when they showed it and last week the reaired the fight between the Androids and Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo and Tien. I loved:

-Them being clueless to where the Androids are.
-Dr Gero killing thousands of people right in front of Goku.
-Goku being rendered helpless
-Vegeta and Piccolo bluffing.
-Dr. Gero fleeing
-Dr Gero trying to pick them off one by one.
-18 kills Gero
-That badly edited part where the trucker survives Vegeta's blast "Hey that's my truck!"
-Vegeta getting both of his arms broken.
-The Z warriors get owned and sparred just because the Andriods were playing around with them.

Oh and the contrast between Trunks and Vegeta. That was great and made me like Trunks even more, who was already my favorite character. (along with Frieza and Perfect Cell) Future Trunks not giving a single fuck about fighter an opponent just because they're strong shows that he's more of a "pure hero" then Goku, who'd risk everyone's lives by letting his enemies get stronger like against Frieza and when he gave Cell a senzu bean. Meanwhile, Trunks just goes, "Fuck it!" and tries to kill his enemy immediately (See: Trunks goes insane and when Trunks tries to kill Cell when he's transforming instead of just sitting back and watching it.) I became a fan of Trunks just because of how he owned Frieza and King Cold when I was a kid but now I see that he's an all around good character.

[Kiddington]

So it looks like the two Cooler movies are the last in line for Nicktoons "DBZ movie" month; I don't see the first couple (Dead Zone, Tree of Might, etc.) scheduled anywhere in the lineup. Kinda sucks that they aren't airing all of them, but oh well.

I'd say this was a successful endeavor on their part, either way. A good number of these movies have never aired anywhere on TV in the US (not even on Toonami), so it was pretty cool to see them over the air for the first time ever, edited or otherwise.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Here's a good topic to steer the thread into- What are your top 10 favorite fights from the entire franchise? They can be anime, manga, filler, movies... Whatever. Just list 'em out!

I still have to think it over before I post, but what do you guys think?

[Rynnec]

In no particular order and mostly going from memory:

1.Goku vs Vegeta (round 1 haven't watched round 2 in a while, so I don't really have an opinion on it)

2.Goku vs Cell

3.Piccolo vs Goku vs Garlic Jr. and his minions

4.SSJ3 Goku vs Buu

5.Goku vs Pikkon

6.Gotenks vs Super Buu

7.Vegeta and Trunks vs Cell

8.Vegeta vs Zarbon round 2

9.Piccolo vs Android 17

10.Goku and Vegeta vs Kid Buu

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

1. Goku vs Vegeta (Saiyan Saga)

2. Goku vs Tien (2nd Budokai tournament in Dragon Ball)

3. Goku vs Frieza

4. Goku vs King Piccolo (2nd/final fight)

5. Goku vs Jacki-Chun/Master Roshi (1st Budokai)

6. Gohan, Krillin, and Piccolo vs Nappa

7. Vegeta vs Frieza and Various Minions of His (a tie between Frieza as well as Kiwi, Zarbon, Jeice, etc.)

8. Goku vs. Tao (2nd + 3rd round)

9. Future Trunks vs Alternate Future Android 17 + 18 (the fight from the manga and TV anime, not from the movie)

10. Goku vs Red Ribbon Army (final battle with the entire headquarters/base)

Honorable Mentions: Goku vs Murasaki (because its fucking hilarious, that's why), Goku vs General Blue (mostly for the same reasons as Murasaki), Gohan vs Cell (because it was when Gohan was in his prime as a character; as in he fully developed out of being the whiney wimp that he was at earlier parts in the series, and wasn't as cocky as he was when he was a teenager), Future Trunks vs. Frieza and his father (because I just love seeing me a good old fashioned ass-kicking)

I didn't list any fights from the movies because while some of them are entertaining, most of them lack any real substance or even a sense of serious threat to them, and feel much more like mindless beat-downs.