Author Topic: Yu Yu Hakusho  (Read 45203 times)

gunswordfist

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Re: Yu Yu Hakusho
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2011, 02:19:46 PM »
The final season is pretty underrated, IMO. Its definitely a lot weaker than the Chapter Black and Dark Tournament arcs, but it had the most potential to be a great arc out of all of them. The problem lies in the fact that it was rushed. Togashi, as I have heard, originally wanted to end YYH after Chapter Black, but was forced by his editors to continue since it was still fairly popular, and he did come up with some really good ideas for the final season, but its clear that his heart wasn't really in his work by that point anymore, and he just wanted to get the series over with by that point. Even so, I think the anime did an excellent job of expanding the thin amount of material that he had there, and aside from the last few episodes which ended up resolving anything with a very rushed and disappointing tournament, I thought the rest of the arc was actually quite well-done. The hate is completely unfounded, since a bunch of people who hate it only hate it for the fact that it wasn't super action-heavy since it just threw in a tournament at the last minute. I can agree hating that final portion of it, but everything up until then was far from bad.

The whole relationship between Kurama and Yomi is excellently written and that aspect of the arc didn't feel rushed at all. I love how Yomi, who was formerly a subordinate of Kurama learned from his mistakes and Kurama's intelligence in the past and actually forced Kurama into a position of being his personal adviser against his will. I really liked how Demon World was actually shown to have its own social structure and politics, and that there were 3 kingdoms vying for power, and pretty much on the brink of all out war. It was an extremely good set-up, and in terms of execution it was handled well up until the final few episodes.

The disappointing aspects of it completely removed Kuwabara from the story and it had a disappointing resolution since it was initially building up a full-scale war which would have been interesting to see Togashi do in YYH.

Overall, though, I mostly disagree with the hate that the final arc gets. I admit that I used to be one of those people who disliked it, but upon re-watching it several times over, it has only grown on me over time.
Was writing this yesterday but the internet messed me up.

Anyway, I was going to say that the season is good before the tournament before I read your post. The Demon Tournament concept was completely disappointing barring about 4 fights. A great war between the 3 kingdoms was being set up and then the kings no longer able to go to war since they agreed upon entering the tournament. What's the saddest about that is we didn't get to see Yusuke, Hiei or Kurama fight. It would have been interesting seeing them caught in a situation where they would have to fight to the death because they are on different sides. Namely Yusuke vs Kurama. Can you imagine trying to see Yusuke get around one of Kurama's strategies? Aso a Kurama/Hiei and Yusuke/Hiei rematch would be nice especially since the last Hiei vs Yusuke fight really really sucked (the one in Chapter Black, bleeh) It would have been interesting to finally see Yusuke and Hiei go all out when they are that powerful. Yusuke just escaped death and was 100% when they last fought. Also, we got to NOT see Mukuro vs Yomi. It's like they did all that to avoid showing us how was more powerful than who.

The Three Kings could have been my favorite arc if the war actually happened. They could have did things like having Raizen's old acquiantances join up with Yusuke instead of being in that stinking tournament. Oh and Yusuke's former opponents from the Dark Tournament. Dammit, I wanted to see Shishiwakamaru at war. He gave Genkai her best fight. Grr, I could go on forever.

And when don't bosses of anything you love not fuck up anything (Ninja Gaiden, Rurouni Kenshin)  :D I didn't know the editors urged Togashi to do the arc. Oh and no Kuwabara is always a great thing. ;D
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Re: Yu Yu Hakusho
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2011, 02:36:00 PM »
I pretty much agree with that, though on the Yusuke vs. Hiei fight the point wasn't that they were really even trying to take each other down, but its another part of common shonen tropes (though its not used much anymore, these days) where 2 people just like to flair each other up for something big to come with some light sparring (and to them that was basically just sparring rather than actually fighting).

But, yeah, I also thought that the most interesting aspect of the war would have been that Yusuke, Hiei, and Kurama each support different sides for their own reasons, and in Kurama's case it was once again in a situation in which he needed to protect his mother, so he wouldn't even be able to consider teaming up with Yusuke or Hiei, and would have to fight them as enemies since Yomi isn't a total dumb-ass like Roto was and could actually back up his threats so that he'd have a tight control over Kurama's mother and could have her killed at any time he wanted. It would have added for some interesting tension between the main cast.

Overall, though, I think that everything that happened in that arc up until just before the tournament was genuinely good material. So I disagree that it was a bad arc.

gunswordfist

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Re: Yu Yu Hakusho
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2011, 01:38:11 PM »
I pretty much agree with that, though on the Yusuke vs. Hiei fight the point wasn't that they were really even trying to take each other down, but its another part of common shonen tropes (though its not used much anymore, these days) where 2 people just like to flair each other up for something big to come with some light sparring (and to them that was basically just sparring rather than actually fighting).

But, yeah, I also thought that the most interesting aspect of the war would have been that Yusuke, Hiei, and Kurama each support different sides for their own reasons, and in Kurama's case it was once again in a situation in which he needed to protect his mother, so he wouldn't even be able to consider teaming up with Yusuke or Hiei, and would have to fight them as enemies since Yomi isn't a total dumb-ass like Roto was and could actually back up his threats so that he'd have a tight control over Kurama's mother and could have her killed at any time he wanted. It would have added for some interesting tension between the main cast.

Overall, though, I think that everything that happened in that arc up until just before the tournament was genuinely good material. So I disagree that it was a bad arc.
As far as sparring goes, the first Hiei vs Yusuke "rematch" did that perfectly. Before the tournament, I liked how Hiei attacked Yusuke to get an idea of how much stronger he got. That was cool and served a point. I personally think Hiei saving Yusuke then fighting him two seconds later in the Chapter Black was stupid, not that I'm making a big deal about it but yeah, stupid. ;D

I feel stupid forgetting that Yomi could have gotten Kurama's mother step brother killed at any time. All I remembered was that Yomi lured him to his kingdom due to guilt or was it unfinished business? But yeah, Hiei and Yusuke could have teamed up while Kurama would have had to stay the enemy. That would have been interesting
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Re: Yu Yu Hakusho
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2011, 01:44:29 PM »
As far as sparring goes, the first Hiei vs Yusuke "rematch" did that perfectly. Before the tournament, I liked how Hiei attacked Yusuke to get an idea of how much stronger he got. That was cool and served a point. I personally think Hiei saving Yusuke then fighting him two seconds later in the Chapter Black was stupid, not that I'm making a big deal about it but yeah, stupid. ;D

But that's just it, you even acknowledged yourself just now that it was "sparring," so why do you insist on calling it a fight. Its just a single scene that doesn't last very long and there its hardly enough to be called a fight. I think you put too much focus on it for what's obviously just a minor sparring scene. If it actually was a full fledged fight then that would be pretty stupid, but in this case its not.

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I feel stupid forgetting that Yomi could have gotten Kurama's mother step brother killed at any time. All I remembered was that Yomi lured him to his kingdom due to guilt or was it unfinished business? But yeah, Hiei and Yusuke could have teamed up while Kurama would have had to stay the enemy. That would have been interesting

The thing is, I doubt Hiei and Yusuke would have really teamed up, seeing as how Hiei seemed to be pretty loyal to Mukuro and still wasn't such a goodie-goodie that he wouldn't consider fighting Yusuke if things came down to that (especially since it was implied that he kind of wanted to, anyways). And as for Yusuke, Raizen was his very own ancestor, so I doubt that he'd turn on him to join another side so easily, despite the fact that he made it seem like he really hated Raizen (if he really did, though, I doubt that he would have stayed and trained under him for an entire year).

So, really it just seems like the 3 of them wouldn't necessarily be on the best terms with each other, despite the fact that they had functioned as a team in the past.

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Re: Yu Yu Hakusho
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2011, 11:28:13 AM »
Just finished Chapter Black, and I gotta say I'm impressed. Everything was almost perfect.I loved it.  :sly: Just a couple of things:

- The territories. I got use to them, but they just didn't seem to fit into the demon vibe, so that was pretty weird.

- Alot of the fighting was just punching, and kicking which was kinda a disappointment compared to the special attacks, and strategies of the Dark Tournament.

- And not really a flaw, but Sensui knowing that Koenma would bring Gamemaster to life thus, defeating his little pacifier? A bit of a stretch for me. How did he know Koenma wouldn't have been "Meh, fuck it!". Whatever.


I'm halfway through the Three King Saga and these are my problems:


- The demons. Call them what you will, but they weren't very demon-like to me. They basically, human beings by this arc. Which, didn't fit the vibe previous seasons set up about them. Oddly enough them having cities, and rulers didn't bother me.

- Demons eating people. What? Since, when did this happen? Yeah, yeah I know. This is something I probably should have known since, Season 1, but it was never really touched upon til now. I though they just liked to kill us. And they pretty much make us feel good about these demons, and just ignore that they pretty much devour human beings.  :wth:

Which makes me. Does that mean characters we all know and love like the Dark Tournament participants, Hiei, and Kurama did, or still do the same thing?  :whuh:

Well, those are the complaints I got that haven't been stated already like, that it should have been a war or thatRaizen should have been around longer. Yadda, yadda, yadda.

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Re: Yu Yu Hakusho
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2011, 01:48:21 PM »
A lot of good points you brought up, there, but don't mind me if I give my own thoughts or feedback to them with some of my own responses, and also some explanations that the series provided about those things that you just might have missed going through it (I missed stuff too, on my first run through the series, after all ;) ).

- The territories. I got use to them, but they just didn't seem to fit into the demon vibe, so that was pretty weird.

Well, the thing about territories that you have to remember is that they aren't either spirit energy or demon energy or anything like that. In the dub they try to get this point across by calling the villains "psychics," and in general they have unique abilities to controls the space around them rather than fire off energy attacks and stuff like that. It may feel a bit out of place, but IMO it made things much more interesting since it provided a plausible way for villains much weaker than the main characters to still keep them at bay, and that's pretty unique for an anime series such as this one (it also keeps things feeling fresh, IMO).

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- Alot of the fighting was just punching, and kicking which was kinda a disappointment compared to the special attacks, and strategies of the Dark Tournament.

Yeah, but to be fair this whole arc was a divergent type of fighting. The physical battles were just punching and kicking, but there weren't all that many physical battles to begin with. In place of battles, most of this arc featured the main characters trying to outwit the villains and get past them while obeying the rules of their territories, which to me contained far more strategy and mind games in and of itself than even the DT arc did, when you really think about it.

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- And not really a flaw, but Sensui knowing that Koenma would bring Gamemaster to life thus, defeating his little pacifier? A bit of a stretch for me. How did he know Koenma wouldn't have been "Meh, fuck it!". Whatever.

Its not really a stretch at all. In the manga it was more that he wanted to test Koenma's morality rather than being 100% sure he would save Game Master's life, but even so it pointed out that he was pretty sure he would do it because he knew Koenma quite well. Don't forget, he used to be a spirit detective himself, so he worked for Koenma for quite a while, so its not really a stretch that he would know Koenma well enough to realize that he would most likely opt to save Game Master's life, therefore using up a lot of the power stored in his pacifier. And, even if he didn't, don't forget that Sensui hadn't even shown his full strength by that point, so even if Koenma didn't save Game Master's life its still possible that Sensui could have broken out of the constrainment that Koenma created from that energy.

[qipte]I'm halfway through the Three King Saga and these are my problems:


- The demons. Call them what you will, but they weren't very demon-like to me. They basically, human beings by this arc. Which, didn't fit the vibe previous seasons set up about them. Oddly enough them having cities, and rulers didn't bother me.[/quote]

That's the point. In the Chapter Black arc they made it clear that aside from the more "animalistic" type demons (which were usually the weaker class demons that the group was used to fighting), there were many demons that weren't that different from humans in terms of having thought processes and their own emotions and such. In the Three Kings arc they actually go a step further to show that the demon world is actually quite organized and has kingdoms and even politics and wars. Its true that it may seem out of place since the series had a lot of 1-dimensional villains who were demons before the Chapter Black arc (though, to be fair, even the DT arc showed that there were more than just the bland ones that acted like animals), but to me showing that on the whole there were more intelligent demons out there with organization and some form of society and even technology in their own realm actually makes far more sense than just a nonsensical realm of mindless chaos. To me I could still take the show seriously at this point because it did the idea of having more intelligent demons quite well (IMO).

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- Demons eating people. What? Since, when did this happen? Yeah, yeah I know. This is something I probably should have known since, Season 1, but it was never really touched upon til now. I though they just liked to kill us. And they pretty much make us feel good about these demons, and just ignore that they pretty much devour human beings.  :wth:

Why should it be that surprising? Well, to be fair, a bunch of other shonen featured demons that could eat humans, and I'm pretty sure you could find instances of that in some common Japanese mythology, so you have to remember that for a Japanese audience, none of this would come off as anything out of the ordinary on the whole. Plus, there were always instances of demons that did stuff that no other demons did, like that one demon from the beginning of the series who ate the souls of children.

As for Raizen, though, they made it kind of clear that it was something that his "species" or "kind" specifically did. It never said anywhere that all demons eat humans. However, just like different species of animals would have different things they eat in their diets, its not so hard to believe that the same would apply to different types of demons. In fact, it never mentioned that Yomi or Mokuro ate humans, because they didn't. Its just something that Raizen did before, and even then he gave it up after falling in love with someone from the human world. If you stop to think about it, that was probably the only point of Togashi even putting that in. He wanted to show Raizen's resolve to give up something necessary for him to live after having a life-changing encounter with a human. In that context it does make sense, IMO.

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Which makes me. Does that mean characters we all know and love like the Dark Tournament participants, Hiei, and Kurama did, or still do the same thing?  :whuh:

No, because as I have explained above, and as the series explained, only some species of demons do that, and Raizen is one of the only few demons we saw who ate humans.

Anyways, my complaint about the Three Kings arc is the 2nd half. Ending it with a tournament was just stupid, and also the ending was rushed, and it was clear that Togashi didn't have his heart in the series anymore by that point in time. They honestly should have just let him end it after Chapter Black if he really wanted to, though I still say that the Three Kings arc had potential if it were handled better. I do agree that its a weaker arc that both the Chapter Black and Dark Tournament, but I'd also argue that it had the most potential out of all 3 of them to be the most interesting one.

Dr. Ensatsu-ken

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Re: Yu Yu Hakusho
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2011, 01:56:21 PM »
When I think about it, I have one big complaint of my own that I wonder what other people might think about.

It has to do with the death of Genkai. Right before the final act of the DT arc, there is a brilliantly done episode in which Genkai gets killed by Toguro. It re-watched it recently and it was handled rather excellently in the anime and all that good stuff, but what kind of ruins the emotional impact that it had on me the first time that I watched it was knowing that Genkai would be brought back to life. Now, to be fair, this lead to her playing a fairly significant part in the Chapter Black arc, and she was still a great character to have around, but overall I still feel that this is the most disappointing thing the series has ever done for me (and there aren't a lot of instances like this, so I can generally forgive this one to some extent). Still, I really think it would have been for the better if Genkai had been killed off for good in the DT arc. It would have been interesting to see how Yusuke functioned on his own without his teacher later in in the Chapter Black arc, IMO. I think Togashi may have realized this to some extent, because he certainly doesn't cop-out when it comes to Hunter X Hunter in terms of characters getting killed off (though, most of the time he only kills off the minor ones). Also, to be fair, in the manga Genkai does at least pass away at the very end of the series (only off-panel, though). Still, I think it actually would have worked in the series's favor, and even positively effect Genkai's character in some ways, if she had died for real.

What do other people think about this?

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Re: Yu Yu Hakusho
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2011, 02:11:51 PM »
Genkai was beneficial to Chapter Black, but from what I can recall, didn't do much for the final arc. But even then, I agree that seeing how Yusuke handled CB without her would have been a very interesting story point.

I don't think the episode where she died lost too much of it's power when you consider that she comes back to life later, since it was done poignantly enough. I think it's kind of like a couple of Disney deaths, in which even though you know that they'll come back to life after that, you've just become so invested in the characters that seeing them die to begin with is sad.

Granted, unlike say Snow White or the Beast, it's not as expected for Genkai to come back to life, but that makes her return even more surprising, because you would expect her life to end there, considering her age. That's why I think the revival aspect works since Togashi used it, but at the same time I agree with your points that killing her off would work as well.
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Re: Yu Yu Hakusho
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2011, 02:35:22 PM »
Well, as a kid I was generally happy to see her come back since she was just a great character, and like I said, she was important during the Chapter Black arc. I also didn't mean to say that I felt her death scene was completely ruined by the knowledge of her coming back to life afterward (I re-watched the episode and it still has a big impact on me, and of course helps Yusuke further develop his character), but just that it wasn't quite as big of an impact on me as it once was. It was still probably one of my favorite anime death scenes to be honest, though (I wouldn't rank it in that one list that I was planning, though, because the rule is that the character cannot have come back to life).

I think what kind of makes it a little disappointing for me, though, is that nobody important dying in the DT arc kind of made Toguro feel a lot less threatening than he really could have been. But, to be fair, that has to do with Toguro's character himself, as it was shown by the end of the series that he really just wanted to be beaten by Yusuke the whole time. Deep down he wanted to be proven wrong, and see Genkai's point from all those years ago proven right, if only to redeem himself in some way. That's certainly a very interesting thing for a villain to feel when he really is ashamed of what he did on the inside.

Avaitor

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Re: Yu Yu Hakusho
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2011, 02:42:14 PM »
Yeah, I agree with you completely. In hindsight, that part of Toguro's character was very effective.
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gunswordfist

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Re: Yu Yu Hakusho
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2011, 07:14:49 PM »
- And not really a flaw, but Sensui knowing that Koenma would bring Gamemaster to life thus, defeating his little pacifier? A bit of a stretch for me. How did he know Koenma wouldn't have been "Meh, fuck it!". Whatever.
:D :D :D :D :D :D I can't stop laughing!
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Aurora

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Re: Yu Yu Hakusho
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2011, 11:07:59 AM »
- And not really a flaw, but Sensui knowing that Koenma would bring Gamemaster to life thus, defeating his little pacifier? A bit of a stretch for me. How did he know Koenma wouldn't have been "Meh, fuck it!". Whatever.
:D :D :D :D :D :D I can't stop laughing!

Erm.....ok.  :o


Nice responses there Ensatsu-ken. I can buy your answers for the most part. I still don't like how almost every single being in demon world steadily became Yusuke's biggest fans, Hiei's final fight was also a disappointment. He "freed" Mukoro's woeful bondage from her past when she was a former slave. That's nice and all, but I also would have loved to see Hiei take Mukoro to her limits, had he been a much stronger foe. Ok, that's a bit of shallow reason, but damn it didn't we all wanted a longer battle? :> Also I can't hate any of demons. None of them are so cold-hearted for me to go "BOO!" so, no real reason to dislike them.

Also no Kuwabara? I like it.  :sly: I really do.

By chance if he happen to be in this season what do any of you think could have been done with the character at this point?

Just need 3 more episodes so, I got just Yomi vs Yusuke, and the final episode.



« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 11:10:06 AM by Aurora »

Dr. Ensatsu-ken

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Re: Yu Yu Hakusho
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2011, 01:04:25 PM »
Nice responses there Ensatsu-ken. I can buy your answers for the most part. I still don't like how almost every single being in demon world steadily became Yusuke's biggest fans, Hiei's final fight was also a disappointment. He "freed" Mukoro's woeful bondage from her past when she was a former slave. That's nice and all, but I also would have loved to see Hiei take Mukoro to her limits, had he been a much stronger foe. Ok, that's a bit of shallow reason, but damn it didn't we all wanted a longer battle?

Heh, The funny thing is that we should probably be thankful that we even got that fight in the first place, among other ones. Believe it or not that was only added in the anime, and was non-existent in the manga because of how rushed the ending was. So, yeah, the anime version of the tournament is actually the "long" version of it, believe it or not. Props to the team of writers for the series for adding in all of that material and not having it come off as complete garbage. Its nowhere close to the greatness you would normally expect from this series, but its actually pretty impressive that it didn't turn out bad, either, considering just how much could go wrong with the writers taking things into their own hands instead of strictly following the manga. In this case it all felt very necessary, though.

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Also no Kuwabara? I like it.  :sly: I really do.

:wth: :anger:

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By chance if he happen to be in this season what do any of you think could have been done with the character at this point?

To be honest, if he could have done anything in the final season then he would have been there. Its as simple as that. Its just that Togashi designed an arc in which Kuwabara would be completely useless, as it didn't even involve him, anyways. I do kind of like how he wanted to focus on having a normal life and started seriously studying, and stuff. I wouldn't have minded a few scenes going back to him in the human world showing him trying to adapt back to a normal style of living while also feeling a little emotionally left out for not being able to get in on the action in Demon World, and wondering how the rest of the group is doing. It would make for an interesting little touch, IMO. Then again, I wouldn't mind a half-assed excuse to get him into the arc, as that may have been its biggest problem aside from being rushed. Yu Yu Hakusho simply just doesn't feel quite like it should without the entire gang together, and especially if its Kuwabara that's missing, since like him or not he's the character that gives the group its "heart," IMO.

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Just need 3 more episodes so, I got just Yomi vs Yusuke, and the final episode.

I hope you enjoy it. Once again, this fight was pretty much skipped and only referenced in the manga, but the anime went through the trouble of writing out an entire fight between the 2, and there really was a lot of effort and emotion put into this battle, IMO. Its by no means the best battle in the series (obviously since Togashi didn't write it), but it has just as much entertainment value and intensity to it that you'd expect out of this series's better fights.

Aurora

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Re: Yu Yu Hakusho
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2011, 01:27:59 AM »


:wth: :anger:

Haha, I'm no Kuwabara hater. I like the guy, but he was never one of my favorites either. And after the Dark Torunament they didn't really have him do much.

Erm....I mean!

BWUHHHHAHAHAHAHA! DEAL WITH IT BITCH!  :devil:  :blush:  :humhumhum:



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Just need 3 more episodes so, I got just Yomi vs Yusuke, and the final episode.

I hope you enjoy it. Once again, this fight was pretty much skipped and only referenced in the manga, but the anime went through the trouble of writing out an entire fight between the 2, and there really was a lot of effort and emotion put into this battle, IMO. Its by no means the best battle in the series (obviously since Togashi didn't write it), but it has just as much entertainment value and intensity to it that you'd expect out of this series's better fights.

Thank you! I can't wait to see them tomorrow! :thumbup:

.......Prick.  :awesome: Oops did that come out. Sometimes I just can't control myself.  :??:

Yeah, I'm looking for a fight!  :whip:  :P

And in all seriousness I'm just trying to get a rise out of you. I hope Guns doesn't mind.  ;D
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 01:30:00 AM by Aurora »

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Re: Yu Yu Hakusho
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2011, 01:52:24 AM »
Pshhhh...You're leagues to low in your insult level to get a rise out of me. Anyone who knows me well enough knows that the only way to do that is to insult the most sacred game in existence. I have 0 tolerance for that, but just about anything else I just treat the other person's opinion as inferior to my own, anyways, since I am naturally a superior being to all else and therefore my opinion is fact and yours is false. That's all there is to it. :sly: