JoJo's Bizarre Adventure

[Painted Outlaw]

So, yeah, kind of got tired of posting there when it became clear that not too many people were all that interested in discussing any of the actual shows themselves beyond either complaining about them or using them as examples of offensive social commentary. It says a lot that the shows that have the least to complain about relative to the others, like HXH, barely got any discussion at all.

I got tired of posting there when I got kicked out. ^^;

JJBA has problems with its treatment of women, but so does literally every other fictional work from the time period in which the manga was originally written, as well as many heavily-praised things made today (especially anime). It's not like any of their examples are particularly egregious or at all worse than shit that happens in modern kids' shows like Naruto or whatever.

Yeah. Like, look at stuff like Cross Ange or Valvrave or like you said, Naruto. Thinking Jojo is worse than any of those in this regard is a comical notion in itself.
(Granted, Naruto never did anything on the level of those first two but, at least I can remember half the things Yukako or Jolyne did compared to Sakura who I just remember as "The Sasuke want machine").

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

It's not like any of their examples are particularly egregious or at all worse than shit that happens in modern kids' shows like Naruto or whatever.

On that note, though, I will say this: I'm not a fan of Naruto. That said, I will at least give Masashi Kishimoto some props for flat-out admitting that he has weak writing for his female characters and that it's definitely a flaw with his work. I mean, it's a flaw among many other things, but I do think there is at least something to be said about not trying to defend something that's poorly done and making it clear that despite poor execution, it doesn't necessarily reflect one's own personal views on a subject matter.

[LumRanmaYasha]

I stopped posting regularly on ToonZone years ago when the interface of the forum itself became garbage, but the fact that most of the people on there now are self-righteous politically correct wingnuts certainly didn't help.

Like GSF, I don't think JoJo's being written in the 80s is an excuse for poorly written female characters. I think when looking back on an older series we should acknowledge its shortcomings in representation or its political/social messages, and just because we still might be having these problems in our media now doesn't mean we shouldn't be critical and strive to improve and demand better. With that being said, I don't think JoJo's is worth criticizing for having badly written female characters. It has a lack of prominent female characters who fight in the early parts, sure, but the characters themselves? Erina, Lisa-Lisa, and even Suzy-Q and Holly are admirable and likable. How the latter two are treated by the male characters is problematic, but that's not the stance Araki as a writer takes as a whole towards women, as evident by how female characters start to be written in more active roles past part 4 and beyond. There are two extremes of writing female characters in Shonen Jump manga to me: on one end you have Hideaki Sorachi and Gintama as writing the best examples of a large, diverse, and well-rounded cast of female characters, and on the other you have Tsugumi Ohba and Death Note as examples of some of the worst treatment and objectification of women in a series. Bakuman is arguably worse than DN in this regard, but what's interesting to me about using these two as examples is that they literally debuted a week apart from each other, making them prime contrasts. In my book, Araki and JoJo's lean way more towards Sorachi's side of the spectrum in terms of the role female characters play in the story and Araki's perspective on their importance.

[gunswordfist]

Funny enough, I've been thinking about the women in Death Note. It does make sense that a narcissistic mass murderer would prefer docile women. Of course the real problem is those two get the biggest roles out of any female characters in the series. That and I fucking hate lolis but that's a story for another time.

[Dr. Insomniac]

I recall reading some of Araki's thoughts on female characters in the back of those Jojonium books, and he mentions that he thought it was subversive to write characters like Lisa Lisa or Enya, wishing he could have done more with them if it weren't for his editors.

[gunswordfist]

I recall reading some of Araki's thoughts on female characters in the back of those Jojonium books, and he mentions that he thought it was subversive to write characters like Lisa Lisa or Enya, wishing he could have done more with them if it weren't for his editors.

My 2 favorite JoJo women. Fucking editors...Lisa Lisa especially could have done more.

[The Shadow Gentleman]

Araki is also aware of his own past shortcomings, which was why he went ahead with Part 6, even though it was unpopular during it's run.

[Avaitor]

I forgot to mention this, but I finished DiU last week, and it's easily my favorite arc thus far. The humor in particular was on point, and I really liked the way it jumped around.

I hope Vento Aureo turns out to be as entertaining whenever it gets adapted.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Part 5 actually tends to be among the least favorite for a lot of JoJo's fans. It's another road-trip style adventure like Stardust Crusaders. Personally I think it's about as entertaining as that arc, myself, but admittedly Araki can be incredibly inconsistent with how the Stand abilities work in this arc, and the way that the main villain is defeated is, IMO a disappointingly anti-climactic ass-pull. It ends as soon as it starts and then strangely Araki made the strange decision to end the arc with a prequel story that takes place shortly before the events of VA.

Other than that, though, there's a lot of entertaining stuff here. The battle with the Grateful Dead is arguably one of the best in the entire series, let alone just this arc, IMO.

[Avaitor]

Hmm, and I still haven't finished Stardust Crusaders, although I am rewatching it via Toonami. I'm not at the point where I lost interest yet, although Jotaru's lack of likability is as present as ever.

I wonder if the anime would do any tweaking to part 5 if the arc isn't so popular.

[Dr. Insomniac]

Part 5 was actually pretty popular in Japan though, enough to get some tie-in games. It's just everywhere else where it gets little love.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Whereas Part 4 is one of the most popular parts everywhere except Japan.

One of my favorite parts of Part 4 was in how balanced the Stands were. One of the things that makes be dubious about later parts is hearing how unbalanced they become. But I'll wait until I get there to judge.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Not that there was any doubt, but Part V is on the way.

[gunswordfist]

Oh, didn't know that meant Golden Wind.

[Daikun]

Part 5 premieres July 5.