Toonami

[Avaitor]

I've noticed that Jojo isn't really catching on here. While I do like Phantom Blood, and it is important to the show, I do think that it might have had a better chance of catching on if they skipped or marathoned it. Those who are sticking around for Battle Tendency are liking it better, but PB is a tough sale for the kind of crowd Toonami attracts.

Also, I really hope that we get season 2 of Iron-Blooded Orphans, and soon. Because frankly, Unicorn RE: 0096 isn't that good. I actually do like the OVAs, but the pacing is killed when they're converted into episodes, especially when they get padded with recaps. I'm surprised how that's holding on so well from Jojo in comparison to how it holds to DB.

[gunswordfist]

I just hope we get Stardust Crusaders. I know the Toonami crowd will love it as much as I do and that'll pretty much save Jojo.

[Peanutbutter]

In slightly related One Piece news....


https://twitter.com/ASoulfulChris/status/840425341021769728



Apparently RomanMack admitted to being a troll on ASMB? Well, that's actually better than him being a legit psycho. Sure had me fooled way back when.

[Dreamer2]

I just hope we get Stardust Crusaders. I know the Toonami crowd will love it as much as I do and that'll pretty much save Jojo.

As one of the Toonami viewers who finds JoJo to be pretty bad, I think Stardust Crusaders would have to be unbelievably different than either of these first two arcs. But, at this point I have such little interest in the world and the characters of JoJo, I just don't think it'd matter.

So, I'm really hoping Toonami moves to something new after Battle Tendency.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Well, if we're picking stuff that we'd prefer Toonami to give the axe to in favor of other stuff, can we get rid of Naruto Shippuden while we're at it? I know that it technically pulls in ok ratings so it's unlikely to be going anywhere anytime soon (which amazes me because of how the anime has even worse pacing issues than One Piece, and that's really saying something), but there are at least half a dozen much better options that the half-hour slot could be used for.

Mob Psycho 100 would most likely do great due to what a massive hit One Punch Man was on the block (though the art-style might be an issue for the typical Toonami audience). My Hero Academia's straightforward but well-executed premise would be a perfect alternative for another WSJ series to take Naruto's place (and it probably will air on Toonami sometime after the second season comes out), Ushio and Tora could fill the void of that old-school shonen itch while also wrapping up its story in a clean 39-episodes, and Blood Blockade Battlefront would be a unique and interesting sort of venture for Toonami viewers, with the tagline "From the Creator of Trigun" doing a lot to sell people on it due to the large nostalgia for that series from back on its Adult Swim days. There are other shows that have a chance of increasing the ratings from that block rather than just leveling off at something kind of decent.

[Dreamer2]

I'd take JoJo over Naruto (Shippuden) and Gundam. And that's it. If this was IBO, I'd take that over JoJo easily.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I'd say over One Piece (which is already ending its run on the block to be fair), and DB Kai and Super as well.

To be clear, I'm a big One Piece fan and a massive Dragon Ball fan....when it comes to manga. However Toei massively screwed up with One Piece, while the Majin Buu arc is horribly dragged out in DBZ (even in Kai). Meanwhile, Super is dreadfully bad until the Universe Six arc, and that arc is pretty mediocre overall. The Future Trunks arc is good but also not without some definite flaws, and there has been some genuinely fun filler since then but the Universe Survival arc has been fairly underwhelming so far, IMO. Overall it's a very uneven series that I couldn't personally call superior to JoJo's, despite Dragon Ball being one of my all-time favorite WSJ series.

[Dreamer2]

I could almost agree with One Piece, but I find enough to like and enjoy out of One Piece, which I just don't get from JoJo. I love the characters in OP. So much. That's enough to put it past JoJo, a show that has basically one character I enjoy fully. 

As for the DB hour, I just find myself having a ball revisiting the Buu arc. The part they're in right now, is the arc I have the most memories of as a child. So, I'm not surprised I'm enjoying it. Hopefully that continues. And this is coming from someone who was getting super bored during the Frieza arc of Kai. (Is it weird that the Frieza arc is like my least favorite DBZ arc?)

I've also gotten some good laughs out of Super so far. And once again in regards to anything DBZ and on, I just love the characters. As with OP, the story contains many problems, but the characters make up for it.

JoJo has story problems and character problems, which just equals a mess, unfortunately.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I don't see how Ushio & Tora would do better than My Hero Academia on Toonami. Superheroes are still big here, MHA is short and people would be hooked by the first 2 episodes. As much as I like UT more, MHA would be the smarter pickup.

MHA would undoubtedly do better than U&T. I don't even think there's a question of that.

But if it hasn't arrived by now, I don't think it will until season 2 with it's rumored 24 episode run comes out. By then, a 37 episode run would do wonders for it. But I know there are many people who legit hate the series because of how slow season 1 was and how it wasn't "special" or "unique" enough to earn the hype. I want MHA to be exposed with some of the best material when it finally comes out.

Ushio & Tora is 39 episodes, and it's done and in the can. It's a complete story and can be watched all the way through without waiting for new episodes. The series is ready to go.

I guess I mean that U&T is ready to go at any time, would have been the perfect show to air on Toonami back in the day, and would certainly hit a lot of people in a way they didn't expect. MHA I think would benefit from waiting a bit longer.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I could almost agree with One Piece, but I find enough to like and enjoy out of One Piece, which I just don't get from JoJo. I love the characters in OP. So much. That's enough to put it past JoJo, a show that has basically one character I enjoy fully.

To be fair, JoJo's cast changes with each new part, so there are tons of characters that you can't really take into account yet. And yes, the arcs do change drastically from part to part, and while I don't love Stardust Crusaders, I can honestly say that I do love its supporting cast, and argue that it has genuinely great comedy as well as some of the best fights in all of anime and manga. Diamond is Unbreakable is where JoJo's really grew on me, though.

I agree about loving One Piece's cast (except when Oda stumbles with them big-time post-Marineford), but once again in all fairness, even that took quite a few story arcs before they truly grew on me enough to care about them as much as I do now.

As for the DB hour, I just find myself having a ball revisiting the Buu arc. The part they're in right now, is the arc I have the most memories of as a child. So, I'm not surprised I'm enjoying it. Hopefully that continues. And this is coming from someone who was getting super bored during the Frieza arc of Kai. (Is it weird that the Frieza arc is like my least favorite DBZ arc?)

As one of the few defenders of the Majin Buu arc, I do have big problems with how the anime handles it, personally. And since you mentioned JoJo's being a mess, I think it only fair to point out that, while I enjoy it, the Buu arc is rife with plot issues and generally being all over the place in its second half. It's not so weird to dislike the Freeza arc, but personally I disagree. The first half is brilliant, IMO, since it forces the characters to not have Goku to rely on, thus causing them to have to play a dangerous cat and mouse game with enemies far stronger than them. The second half is very battle-heavy but I'd argue that Toriyama does an excellent job of keeping things engaging with the constantly changing circumstances and increasing sense of tension with each new fight, escalating up to the final battle with Freeza.

As for me, while I certainly enjoy parts of it, the Cell arc is actually my least favorite, mainly with how dragged out the second half feels.

I've also gotten some good laughs out of Super so far. And once again in regards to anything DBZ and on, I just love the characters. As with OP, the story contains many problems, but the characters make up for it.

JoJo has story problems and character problems, which just equals a mess, unfortunately.

I love the cast of DB and OP as well. In DB's case, though, I'd argue that Super gets much of its cast characterized differently than DB/Z. Goku in particular suffers from becoming a charicature of his former self, while other characters like Vegeta fair much better. Regardless, the movie recap arcs are garbage, IMO, and the post-movie stuff is entertaining but very lopsided in quality.

JoJo absolutely has story and character problems. As does DB, Naruto, and every long-running series ever made. I could go on for ages about the massive plot-holes in Dragon Ball and how inconsistent Toriyama's writing can be, but I wouldn't say that it's a mess. JoJo's falls into the same camp for me. I can completely understand and respect that it's clearly not your thing. That said, I'd personally argue that it does plenty of great things as well, more so than what you give it credit for. The battles are incredibly creative and fun. The story in part 2 is most definitely not a mess, it has a pretty clear and easy to follow progression. And while I agree that the supporting cast is weaker in the first two parts, this is maybe the one series where it's not just a fan excuse to say that the casts become more interesting later on, since things change drastically with each new part, and Araki's writing style changes drastically over time. It just feels like your comments are more aimed as backlash against the series because some other people hyped it up (and I'm always against hyping things up too much, even for stuff that I like). I noticed that you had a very similar reaction to Hunter X Hunter before it growing on you multiple arcs later. Not saying that JoJo's would have the same effect, but to assume that the first two parts are completely representative of the overall quality of a series that has ran for over three straight decades is a bit silly. That's like assuming that all of Dragonball will be just like the Emperor Pilaf arc based on only being exposed to that alone.

Again, it's fine if JoJo's doesn't appeal to you as a series. I can say with certainty that I know where you're coming from because I also wasn't that into it at this point either on my first viewing. I'm just trying to get across that fans such as myself and others find a lot more to like about the series than just its style and "bizarre" nature. There are tons more characters that I love in JoJo's besides just Joseph, and some of the later parts are among my all-time favorite story arcs (myself, Lum, and Spark even included one of them on a list of our favorite story arcs that we wrote about a couple of years ago), as well as more interesting and nuanced aspects of its story and world-building.

It's definitely not a series that's for everyone, but personally I hope that it does eventually win over the general Toonami audience because it really brings something different and interesting to the block, IMO.

[Spark Of Spirit]

The Toonami crowd would probably have dug Stardust Crusaders far more. Toonami should have pulled what Funi did with the original DB and DBZ by airing the original after the franchise had already attained an audience. SC is far more straightforward, has an established and iconic cast, is all battling all the time, and has twice the run time of season 1. If Toonami doesn't get around to SC, it's going to be a big loss for potential fans.

[Dreamer2]

I really need to post here more often. I enjoy reading the posts from most of the members here, but I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts Dr. Ensatsu. Even when we disagree. I mean my first batch of posts here was pretty much just us disagreeing about HxH.

As one of the few defenders of the Majin Buu arc, I do have big problems with how the anime handles it, personally. And since you mentioned JoJo's being a mess, I think it only fair to point out that, while I enjoy it, the Buu arc is rife with plot issues and generally being all over the place in its second half. It's not so weird to dislike the Freeza arc, but personally I disagree. The first half is brilliant, IMO, since it forces the characters to not have Goku to rely on, thus causing them to have to play a dangerous cat and mouse game with enemies far stronger than them. The second half is very battle-heavy but I'd argue that Toriyama does an excellent job of keeping things engaging with the constantly changing circumstances and increasing sense of tension with each new fight, escalating up to the final battle with Freeza.

As for me, while I certainly enjoy parts of it, the Cell arc is actually my least favorite, mainly with how dragged out the second half feels.

My problem with the Frieza arc really has to do with two characters. One really shouldn't be an issue, but Bulma was just a pain. She seriously ruined parts of the arc for me. Just annoying. So annoying. And I still have no idea why she was included. You could take her fully out of the arc and I don't think anything important would be lost.

The other issue is interestingly Frieza. Not entirely why I don't care for Frieza, but I like a villain like Cell. I just was so bored during that whole final fight, where as I was never bored during Goku vs Cell and Gohan vs Cell. While its my least favorite arc, I wouldn't call it bad. There's a lot to like, I just like the other arcs more.

JoJo absolutely has story and character problems. As does DB, Naruto, and every long-running series ever made. I could go on for ages about the massive plot-holes in Dragon Ball and how inconsistent Toriyama's writing can be, but I wouldn't say that it's a mess. JoJo's falls into the same camp for me. I can completely understand and respect that it's clearly not your thing. That said, I'd personally argue that it does plenty of great things as well, more so than what you give it credit for. The battles are incredibly creative and fun. The story in part 2 is most definitely not a mess, it has a pretty clear and easy to follow progression. And while I agree that the supporting cast is weaker in the first two parts, this is maybe the one series where it's not just a fan excuse to say that the casts become more interesting later on, since things change drastically with each new part, and Araki's writing style changes drastically over time. It just feels like your comments are more aimed as backlash against the series because some other people hyped it up (and I'm always against hyping things up too much, even for stuff that I like). I noticed that you had a very similar reaction to Hunter X Hunter before it growing on you multiple arcs later. Not saying that JoJo's would have the same effect, but to assume that the first two parts are completely representative of the overall quality of a series that has ran for over three straight decades is a bit silly. That's like assuming that all of Dragonball will be just like the Emperor Pilaf arc based on only being exposed to that alone.

Again, it's fine if JoJo's doesn't appeal to you as a series. I can say with certainty that I know where you're coming from because I also wasn't that into it at this point either on my first viewing. I'm just trying to get across that fans such as myself and others find a lot more to like about the series than just its style and "bizarre" nature. There are tons more characters that I love in JoJo's besides just Joseph, and some of the later parts are among my all-time favorite story arcs (myself, Lum, and Spark even included one of them on a list of our favorite story arcs that we wrote about a couple of years ago), as well as more interesting and nuanced aspects of its story and world-building.

It's definitely not a series that's for everyone, but personally I hope that it does eventually win over the general Toonami audience because it really brings something different and interesting to the block, IMO.

Yes, you are right on my opinion of HxH. I felt similar, but I found myself more invested in Hunter's characters than Jojo's. But, I think a big difference, which may not be all that fair to Jojo, is how I watched the two series. For the most part I watched HxH at my own pace when I wanted too. Where as Jojo, its once a week. And I think that may have hurt my interest in Jojo. Mixing in with that hype you mentioned. Its hard not to let the hype affect my interest in a show. You hear good things, and if it doesn't live up to those expectations, it may make it feel worse overall. I'd say the same thing happened to me in regards to Madoka Magica. I saw so much praise for it, but ultimately walked away more annoyed than anything.

Of course, its definitely a possibility that I was never gonna like Jojo no matter what. And that happens. Its too bad, because the way its structured really interested me. A story spanning many generations of a family. Sounds great. Just hasn't clicked with me.

One other thing. I agree that you shouldn't judge a whole story on only part of it, but if that early part turns you off so much, its extremely difficult to want to continue or to even think it'll ever reach a high point.

Overall, if Toonami airs Stardust Crusaders, I'll watch it and hope for the best.

And one last point on HxH, but it seems my opinion of it has gotten even better since I finished it last year. And Toonami has barely hit my favorite arc. I wonder how I'll feel about Greed Island once Toonami gets there. Seeing how it was my least favorite arc of HxH.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

My problem with the Frieza arc really has to do with two characters. One really shouldn't be an issue, but Bulma was just a pain. She seriously ruined parts of the arc for me. Just annoying. So annoying. And I still have no idea why she was included. You could take her fully out of the arc and I don't think anything important would be lost.

I can understand being disappointed that she was useless for the arc, but she was barely in it so I couldn't really be annoyed by her presence considering that there was a serious lack of it in the first place. She did have a purpose in actually getting Gohan and Krillin to Namek, but I do agree that making her useless for the rest of the arc was rather weak. Even so, I consider that to be a quibble, not a major flaw in the story.

The other issue is interestingly Frieza. Not entirely why I don't care for Frieza, but I like a villain like Cell. I just was so bored during that whole final fight, where as I was never bored during Goku vs Cell and Gohan vs Cell. While its my least favorite arc, I wouldn't call it bad. There's a lot to like, I just like the other arcs more.

The reason why I enjoy Freeza as a villain; and mind you this is based off of his characterization in the original manga and sub, as the original FUNi dub significantly alters his character until Kai fixed it; is because of how at his core he plays into Toriyama's tendency to write his villains as sort of an in-joke, even the serious ones. For the record, Toriyama has not been shy about using villains to sort of be a jab at some of the negative qualities of people that he either knew personally or were popular celebrities at the time or something of that nature. For example, the Dr. Mashirito character from his previous manga, Dr. Slump, was a clear fun little poke at his editor for both a majority of that manga and Dragon Ball, Torishima (Mashirito being Torishima pronounced backwards with traditional Japanese syllable phonetics). With Freeza, he was a mockery of home realtors, who had a reputation at that time in Japan for being crooked and who Toriyama described as "the worst kind of people." You can even clearly see this in how Freeza's role is that of an overlord who has native species forcibly "evicted" (exterminated) from their "homes" (planets), and then sells them to the highest bidder.

Anyways, the point being that despite being a serious villain, Freeza was oozing with that pompous personality that just made him so memorable as a character. He talks in a specifically polite manner but with a clear undertone of condescension, so reassured that he is superior to everyone and that no one could possibly knock him off his high horse. Combine this with his one fear of the Saiyans growing powerful enough to challenge his authority, and the poetic irony that, despite his attempts to exterminate them, he ultimately unleashes the only thing that (at that point in the story) could kill him in unwittingly pushing Goku to the Super Saiyan level. It makes him a really endearing antagonist in how he affects the hero. As for the fight between Goku and Freeza, it's dragged out a lot in the anime (as a lot of things are, being a big part of why I prefer the manga), but that hardly speaks for the entire arc as a whole. There's a lot of interesting plot and character progression before that which makes it stand out to me.

Yes, you are right on my opinion of HxH. I felt similar, but I found myself more invested in Hunter's characters than Jojo's. But, I think a big difference, which may not be all that fair to Jojo, is how I watched the two series. For the most part I watched HxH at my own pace when I wanted too. Where as Jojo, its once a week. And I think that may have hurt my interest in Jojo. Mixing in with that hype you mentioned. Its hard not to let the hype affect my interest in a show. You hear good things, and if it doesn't live up to those expectations, it may make it feel worse overall. I'd say the same thing happened to me in regards to Madoka Magica. I saw so much praise for it, but ultimately walked away more annoyed than anything.

Of course, it's definitely a possibility that I was never gonna like Jojo no matter what. And that happens. Its too bad, because the way its structured really interested me. A story spanning many generations of a family. Sounds great. Just hasn't clicked with me.

One other thing. I agree that you shouldn't judge a whole story on only part of it, but if that early part turns you off so much, its extremely difficult to want to continue or to even think it'll ever reach a high point.

Overall, if Toonami airs Stardust Crusaders, I'll watch it and hope for the best.

This is all a pretty fair angle to view it from, and like I said I can understand if you just can't get into JoJo's. It clearly has a niche appeal, even among the anime community which is already kind of niche as it is. My points were less to convince you to watch more but more to allow you to understand why people like myself see a lot more in it than how the majority of Toonami's audience seem to perceive it. And for what it's worth, like I said earlier, I felt similar to you on my first viewing of the first season (though I did at least enjoy part two as a story). I think what finally made JoJo's click with me was partly how good the second half of Stardust Crusaders was, but mostly just Diamond is Unbreakable which is where I personally feel like Araki finally perfected his style.

And one last point on HxH, but it seems my opinion of it has gotten even better since I finished it last year. And Toonami has barely hit my favorite arc. I wonder how I'll feel about Greed Island once Toonami gets there. Seeing how it was my least favorite arc of HxH.

In general I feel like HXH is a series that's easy to dismiss early on until it "gets good" (so to speak), but upon revisiting it you notice nuances that were there all along making even the early parts more enjoyable, and that's really a testament to Togashi's skills as a writer.

I agree about Greed Island being the weakest arc, though admittedly I have somewhat warmed up to it over time. It's still a big step down from York New City in my eyes, though, which ties with Dark Tournament from Yu Yu Hakusho as my second favorite story arc written by Togashi (Chapter Black has always been my personal favorite).

[VLordGTZ]

Also, I really hope that we get season 2 of Iron-Blooded Orphans, and soon. Because frankly, Unicorn RE: 0096 isn't that good. I actually do like the OVAs, but the pacing is killed when they're converted into episodes, especially when they get padded with recaps. I'm surprised how that's holding on so well from Jojo in comparison to how it holds to DB.

We'll probably get IBO Season 2 once Unicorn RE: 0096 ends at the beginning of June.  I love the Unicorn OVAs, but it the TV version is definitely hurt by the abrupt endings and long recaps.  While it hasn't ruined my enjoyment so far, I understand how it's hurting other people's investment in the series.  I'm honestly surprised that Unicorn isn't doing worse on the block.  While the series is technically accessible to new viewers, a lot of people unfamiliar with UC tend to get overwhelmed/confused by the history of the UC timeline and its terminology.  To be fair, Hunter X Hunter is still performing better than it some weeks, so I really hope Unicorn and it switch timeslots when Tokyo Ghoul is added.

[Dr. Insomniac]

I know the idea of airing movies has been disliked by fans, but maybe they could air the two Ghost in the Shell movies as a form of rebellion against the live-action film. Considering they're airing some live-action project by Mamoru Oshii, it would be further fitting to air something else he directed.