RPGs

[talonmalon333]

I don't think I've ever played a good one.

The PS1 was better in the RPG category.

[gunswordfist]

Water is wet.

[talonmalon333]

So as I continue to absolutely power my way through FFVIII (I'm really trying to give the game a chance, guys, I really am), am I the only one who thinks you can pinpoint this game as the reason JRPGs went so downhill for a while? Or, at least, why the series died? When you hear common complaints with the genre, you'll hear "They are joyless" or "They are so pretentious" or "They care too much about story and not about gameplay". These are all things that cropped up in FFVIII (even the use of FMV cutscenes, while used lightly, appear more than in VII and are advertised on the game's case as a reason to play it). I almost wonder if it all has to do with this game's success (which, quite frankly, probably is mostly because it's a sequel to FFVII, I mean I think they could have taken an empty soda can out of a dumpster and labeled it "Final Fantasy VIII" and make good money off of it), and the fact that IX, which went in a different direction, wasn't nearly as commercially successful.

[gunswordfist]

Bad sequels tend to have the next game in the series sell badly. Like how MGS3 sold less than 2 (I think) because people were upset with 2.

[Foggle]

Eh, I don't really think 8 hurt the overall series too much. Everything after it is way different, even if they do largely suffer from some of the same problems.

Bad sequels tend to have the next game in the series sell badly. Like how MGS3 sold less than 2 (I think) because people were upset with 2.

Yep, and Resistance 3 sold less than half as much as 2, even though a lot of people seem to put it up there with Crack In Time as Insomniac's best work.

[talonmalon333]

Eh, I don't really think 8 hurt the overall series too much. Everything after it is way different, even if they do largely suffer from some of the same problems.

The gameplay is different, but then again that's the case with a lot of 3D FF games. I was mainly talking about the style and focus of it. And I wouldn't say it killed the series necessarily. But I do think it was the beginning of the end. The cracks started with it, and the snowball just got bigger and bigger until things hit rock bottom.

[Spark Of Spirit]

FFIX had several things going against it at the time.

• It came out after FFVIII which was considered a general letdown after FFVII by the market.
• It was deliberately made to go back to the roots of the franchise, being more familiar to FFIV and FFVI than the previous two entries.
• It was released when everyone was more interested in the next gen and were no longer paying attention to the current gen (Don't you hate that?)
• It had a stylized look instead of realistic (Which has ironically allowed it to age better than the other PS1 games)
• It wasn't grimdark enough to interest the general RPG market at the time.

All that said it has aged the best of the PS1 FF games and is still one of the series best entries. It's a shame they haven't let the director make a mainline FF game since.

[Foggle]

The gameplay is different, but then again that's the case with a lot of 3D FF games. I was mainly talking about the style and focus of it. And I wouldn't say it killed the series necessarily. But I do think it was the beginning of the end. The cracks started with it, and the snowball just got bigger and bigger until things hit rock bottom.

The problem is that FF is an anthology series, so the cracks seen in 8 don't really have any bearing on what came before or after. And regardless of what this forum may lead you to believe, most people love FF10 and 12. I personally thought Crisis Core and Type-0 were fantastic. FF15 looks to be excellent. The only truly bad games are the FF13 trilogy, and the sequels actually have good gameplay despite their stories being shit.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Square's biggest problem has been the writing, not the gameplay. It might not seem like such a big deal, but when you're sitting around with a group of characters for well over 30 hours, it's probably a good thing if they don't grate on you.

[Foggle]

Square's biggest problem has been the writing, not the gameplay. It might not seem like such a big deal, but when you're sitting around with a group of characters for well over 30 hours, it's probably a good thing if they don't grate on you.

Definitely. RPG is perhaps the only genre where story is usually more important than gameplay. Which is probably why I like so few of them...

[Spark Of Spirit]

Square's biggest problem has been the writing, not the gameplay. It might not seem like such a big deal, but when you're sitting around with a group of characters for well over 30 hours, it's probably a good thing if they don't grate on you.

Definitely. RPG is perhaps the only genre where story is usually more important than gameplay. Which is probably why I like so few of them...

It's probably why I tend to prefer action RPGs.

[Foggle]

Same here, I can pretty much only play action RPGs and combat-light cRPGs at this point. I just don't have the patience for turn-based games anymore, unless it's SMT, Valkyria Chronicles, Parasite Eve, or Suikoden.

[talonmalon333]

The problem is that FF is an anthology series, so the cracks seen in 8 don't really have any bearing on what came before or after.

Again though, I'm not talking about the gameplay changes made in each game. I mean the style. The 2D games struck a balance between story and gameplay (though the initial games were much more gameplay focused, which is perfectly fine) and in terms of time, they struck a balance between seriousness and fun. FFVII did the same, and I think Square got the impression that people loved it because of the drama (which did work, but mostly because it balanced those with more "fun" elements). They took that in mind and essentially drained all the fun out of VIII's tone. IX brought it back, but after it proved less profitable, it's approach was ditched and the games starting with X lost the original tone of the series good years. And it all started with VIII.

And regardless of what this forum may lead you to believe, most people love FF10 and 12.

I know what people say about these games. I-VII and IX are liked by just about everyone (though II has a few naysayers), with VI being the fan favorite. VIII, X, and XII are well liked but, among fans, receive far more mixed feelings. XIII wasn't so well loved and XIV was so bad that Square had to make multiple apologies to the public. XI is the only one I know nothing about in terms of reception.

Same here, I can pretty much only play action RPGs and combat-light cRPGs at this point. I just don't have the patience for turn-based games anymore, unless it's SMT, Valkyria Chronicles, Parasite Eve, or Suikoden.

You're not a Chrono Trigger fan?

[Foggle]

9 is about as divisive as 8, 10, and 12 from what I've seen. But I think the majority of fans like all or most of those games. The new version of 14 is incredibly well-received, though it really should not have been so bad when it first launched (great job with that outsourcing there, SE!). 11 is beloved enough that the servers are still running and expansion packs are still being made to this day.

I forgot about Chrono Trigger. That's another good one. The point was mostly just that I don't have the patience for those kind of games anymore, on the whole.

[talonmalon333]

I do think the characters are my biggest problem with FFVIII. They go beyond cliches and are practically cardboard cutouts. Whiny Rinoa, valley girl Selphie, loud mouthed Zell, and more. But of course, the worst is Squall. Bad supporting characters are a serious flaw, but when you want nothing to do with the main character you're stuck playing as for 50+ hours, that's just fatal. They are what cause the story to crumble. And while I criticized the Junction system recently, I have a feeling I'd be far more willing to get into it if the characters didn't make me feel so unattached to the game.

9 is about as divisive as 8, 10, and 12 from what I've seen. But I think the majority of fans like all or most of those games. The new version of 14 is incredibly well-received, though it really should not have been so bad when it first launched (great job with that outsourcing there, SE!). 11 is beloved enough that the servers are still running and expansion packs are still being made to this day.

I forgot about Chrono Trigger. That's another good one. The point was mostly just that I don't have the patience for those kind of games anymore, on the whole.

I don't know. I see a lot of love for IX. Nowadays, it seems to get as much appreciation as VII. And I do think most people like games I-XII. I just see more love for I-VII and IX than I do for the others. They just seem less try hard than VIII and later games. Overall though, Final Fantasy is a little harder to pinpoint the "decline" point (if you're one who believes that even happened) than many franchises. With many franchises you can look at one game and say "After this, the series was never the same". Many people have conflicting opinions about FF. I just think the downward spiral began with VIII.

Also, if it means anything, I do see more love for VIII than I do for any game from the PS2 era onward.