First of all, I would argue that these games should count as beat-em-ups, or at least a sub-category of beat-em-ups, since they are basically the same exact concept except with weapons applied to them. But people have argued with me that they are somehow 2 completely different genre, so going by popular opinion I decided to create a thread for this particular "genre" (seriously, they are basically just beat-em-ups at their core, though) of gaming.
Now, popular opinion will tell you that either God of War or Bayonetta are the current leaders of this genre, and some will say DMC because it basically started hack n' slashes. I myself would lean towards Bayonetta and Ninja Gaiden (with the latter being of the least popular opinion for a mixture of some understandable, but also some pretty unfair and untrue, reasons). I would have said DMC at one point but I basically feel that Kamiya outdid what he did with DMC1, and what Capcom did with any of the DMC sequels, with Bayonetta.
To me, a good hack n' slash game should combine both fast and fluid action (containing a fairly varied/diverse and robust combat system) with a fair amount of challenge, and some good level design couldn't hurt, either. ;)
I should mention about my current progress in DMC4 in Son of Sparda mode. So far I'm enjoying the game a little bit more than I did the first time through, but its also a perfect example of containing some of the things that a hack n' slash game shouldn't do, and that's adding in way more platforming than is needed when the game's controls and camera clearly aren't meant to support that type of gameplay. Also, I really wish more games than just Ninja Gaiden would try to improve enemy AI for these types of games so that they don't just take abuse most of the time and follow pretty predictable attack patterns (they can still be both unpredictable and tough while also being fair). Even Kamiya, as awesome as the guy is, was complaining that nobody had done anything to further the genre since DMC1, but with Bayonetta he still hadn't done anything about the AI, which was one of the things I was sure he would try to improve (too bad he said he'd never play Ninja Gaiden, since I think that would prove that at least one other Japanese hack n' slash game has picked up the baton from DMC1, with Bayonetta still doing so but not being the first to do so, IMO).
Overall, though, I think that there are really 2 types of hack n' slash games by this point. There are the ones that are meant more to be about stylish combos and flashy moves (DMC, Bayonetta), whereas there are the others that are more grounded and are more about speed/agility, reflexes, and strategy (Ninja Gaiden). I love both game types, and the reason why I said that I consider Bayonetta and Ninja Gaiden to both be at the lead of the hack n' slash genre (only from my personal perspective), is because I feel that each one is the best at doing their respective type of gameplay within that genre (with Bayonetta being the current master of style and combo-based combat, and NG being the master of the speed and strategy-based combat).
Anyways, what do other people have to say about any hack n' slash games or the "genre" in general?
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One thing I like about this series is that you can play it as a shooter or a hack n slash, and I play it as the latter. The series has fantastic level design, a nice pocket of moves, a killer soundtrack, and a protagonist that gets things done without whining about it. Best of all, unlike every other Mega Man series, there's no filler or duff games leading to a fantastic pacing that the other MM series usually lack.
It also features the one thing missing from playing as Zero in the X series. The X games are usually about playing fast and dodging like a pro, but in the X series, Zero's range is too borked to reliably hit anything without getting hit himself. Here they fixed it so that you can fly all over the screen and still combo enemies like a pro.
EDIT: Video's gone :(
Even at my best I can still do no better than A Ranks (sometimes S, but not too often), but they are not necessary to progress, just for bragging rights and extra skills. But a game that rewards you for mastering it (and doesn't punish you for being bad at it, it just encourages you to do better) is my favorite style of action game.
Yet another reason why I need to get a Nintendo DS. Well, thanks to the 3DS the older DS models should come down in price drastically, now (or at least I would hope so).
BTW, Has anyone tried playing the new Dishwasher game yet? I heard it did a good job of improving upon the faults of the first game and is a much better overall game (and from what I played of the first game I thought it was already pretty good to begin with, to be honest).
I've never understood why Ninja Gaiden is not looked upon as favorably as the rest of the "big 4" hack 'n slash franchises (big 3 if you don't consider Bayonetta to be a franchise yet). It's rare that I see anyone criticize it using any explanation other than "it's hard" (so are the first and third DMC games) or "the camera is bad" (even though it's far better than the ones in DMC 1 and the first two God of War games).
Quote from: Foggle on April 11, 2011, 10:20:02 PM
I've never understood why Ninja Gaiden is not looked upon as favorably as the rest of the "big 4" hack 'n slash franchises (big 3 if you don't consider Bayonetta to be a franchise yet). It's rare that I see anyone criticize it using any explanation other than "it's hard" (so are the first and third DMC games) or "the camera is bad" (even though it's far better than the ones in DMC 1 and the first two God of War games).
Its mostly for 2 main reasons:
1. It was developed by Tomonobu Itagaki, who a lot of people hate basically because he dissed Tekken a long time ago and because he made Dead Or Alive, which a lot of the more hardcore fighting gamers hate with a passion. Because of this there is a preconceived bias towards the 3D NG games simply because its attached to his name (also there are some of the purist NG fans who hate him for making the 3D NG games which are almost nothing like the classic NES games, but surprisingly enough there aren't far too many people like that as one would expect for a type of game series like this).
2. Ninja Gaiden II was rushed when it was developed and hence had balance issues. Now don't get me wrong, while I admit its far from perfect, the criticisms of it being horribly unbalanced to the point of being cheap is incredibly overblown, but even so the problem lies in the fact that a lot more people played this game than NGB. If you look on Game Rankings, NGB is STILL the highest rated hack n' slash game of all time (most people aren't even actually aware of this, as even Bayonetta hasn't surpassed its ranking yet). However the problem is that it was released on the original XBOX which means that almost nobody really played it (and Sigma had horrible marketing so it sold even shittier than the XBOX version of the game). As for NG2, it was released when the XBOX360 was already a popular console so a lot more people had access to it and played it, and it just so happens that a lot of them were casual gamers, and NG2 didn't cave in to the casual gaming crowd like its competitors did (actually I'd argue that it did, but I suppose somehow a bunch of people fond Acolyte mode to be "unbearably" difficult....which I'll personally never be able to fully understand), so a lot of people ended up hating it for its difficulty.
As for the camera, to be fair God of War's camera works for its gameplay. While I'm not a fan of that game, I will say I never had a problem with its camera. As for DMC, its camera is only really a bitch when any platforming segments come into play. DMC4 is the biggest offender of this. I honestly have no problems with it when it comes to the combat of the game, though, as I have yet to be attacked by an enemy from off-screen.
As for Ninja Gaiden, I honestly RARELY ever had any problems with NGB's camera. I feel that its one of those minor things that critics criticized more because they had very few things to even criticize about the game back then (they even admitted that there wasn't much that they could fault it for to begin with). However NG2 does have a worse camera, but its nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be. A lot of people are used to the fixed-style of cameras from God of War and DMC (I know that you can move the camera in DMC, but in a lot of areas its still fixed in place). So people get mad in NG when its much closer in on the action and they get attacked from off-screen. What a lot of people don't seem to realize is that the camera is designed in such a way in which your meant to have as much free-control over it as possible, and a lot of people are too lazy to adjust the camera "to their advantage" (as its actually quite useful when you realize how moving the camera around at your own free-will allows you to pick the ideal position that you want it at for certain battles). That said, though, it can still be very annoying at battles in which you fight powerful ranged enemies, such as the Chapter 9 twin dragon boss fight which clearly wasn't meant to be played with this sort of camera.
Overall, though, the camera in NG2 is far from terrible, and in some cases I actually prefer the fact that you can freely move it at a quick speed as opposed to being stuck to just one camera angle that the game developers decided to choose for me, against my own free will.
The reason why games like NGB and DMC3 got praise back when they were released was because that was still a time when both reviewers and many gamers actually really respected games that could be highly challenging but completely fair and rewarding with their gameplay. Also it helps that both games were very technically impressive for their time, so they wowed a lot of critics on their graphics and fluid animations alone. That said, times have changed since then, and critics and many gamers seem to care more about how flashy a game is and how much fun they can have with as little effort as possible over the actual substance and rewarding feeling of mastering a fairly challenging game.
Shit....I went overboard again....well, its nothing new coming from me by now. :sly:
I say 3D hack 'n slash and beat em ups should be considered two different genres. I say this based on level design. Hack n slashes usually have platforming. Beat em ups tend to be strickly on the streets or whatever with either a kind of a sandbox world (The Warriors) or ones where you can only go forward (Fighting Force).
The platforming elements in most hack n' slash games are usually really light, though, like with Ninja Gaiden in which they are really few and far in-between. In general most hack n' slash games don't contain nearly enough platforming to really consider platforming a major factor that differs them from regular beat-em-up games. Also that logic alone can't separate them since there are always exceptions to the rule. For example, the Power Rangers beat-em-up on the SNES has quite a bit of platforming in it, yet its still considered a beat-em-up, so I don't think platforming should be a real factor in deciding the difference between them. The Dishwasher games are 2D games but they are considered hack n' slash games, so I'm not sure if 2D and 3D really makes the difference between it being a beat-em-up or a hack n' slash either. From what I've seen of Mega Man Zero, it also has all of the elements you would expect from a hack n' slash, but its also 2D.
As for what makes beat-em-up and hack n' slash games completely different genres, I'd like to hear what Desensitized has to say about that matter, seeing as how he's the resident beat-em-up expert on our board.
Personally, though, I still stand by my opinion that hack n' slash games are basically just a sub-category of beat-em-ups, with the beat-em-up category itself basically being a sub-category of the action game genre.
The main difference between a hack n' slash and a beat 'em up, from what I can gather, is usually speed. Though there are slow hack n slash games and fast beat em ups (Golden Axe: Revenge Of Death Adder and Viewtiful Joe come to mind immediately), they both seem to follow similar ideas.
Beat em ups are usually focused on anticipating at a leisurely pace and dealing out damage in a similar manner. For instance, in Streets Of Rage to get the most damaging attacks out of Axel you have to carefully time your hits to stun the enemy and space button presses in order to not knock the enemy over but do as much damage as possible such as a falling knee drop into a back-suplex on a rising opponent or three slow punches into a grabbing headbutt. Tactics vary on enemies, but you can usually go at your own pace and going fast, even with fast characters is usually a bad idea. Beat em ups are more about enemy encounters and less about level design, though both are important, the first is always more so.
From what I can tell, even games like the Warriors and God Hand follow this same principle.
Hack n Slash requires mastery of the level design itself and multiple weapons over anticipating enemy behavior. While it is important to know your enemy in every action game, knowing your weapons and what they can or can't do is by far the most crucial element to the design. As is knowing your environment in order to speed your way through.
Also, the main reason 2D games have platforming elements is because they can add dynamic situations into the combat to make it feel more exciting. 3D games don't do this as much because they are able to have a lot more going on screen and adding things like hopping platforms while fighting off 4-5 enemies and oncoming projectiles is too much for the average player. Which is why usually when they contain those elements, it is usually separate from the fighting. With 2D you can see all the action going on, so platforming at the same time is not as much of a distraction from the action.
It all originates from Irem's Kung Fu, anyway. Then everyone got their own ideas and we got fighting games, beat em ups, hack n slashers, and even action RPGs based on the simple concept that game brought out.
But, IMO, I do think all of them have different styles to the same formula, so it is easy to see why some prefer certain takes on the idea over others.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 12, 2011, 02:16:20 PM
The platforming elements in most hack n' slash games are usually really light, though, like with Ninja Gaiden in which they are really few and far in-between. In general most hack n' slash games don't contain nearly enough platforming to really consider platforming a major factor that differs them from regular beat-em-up games. Also that logic alone can't separate them since there are always exceptions to the rule. For example, the Power Rangers beat-em-up on the SNES has quite a bit of platforming in it, yet its still considered a beat-em-up, so I don't think platforming should be a real factor in deciding the difference between them. The Dishwasher games are 2D games but they are considered hack n' slash games, so I'm not sure if 2D and 3D really makes the difference between it being a beat-em-up or a hack n' slash either. From what I've seen of Mega Man Zero, it also has all of the elements you would expect from a hack n' slash, but its also 2D.
As for what makes beat-em-up and hack n' slash games completely different genres, I'd like to hear what Desensitized has to say about that matter, seeing as how he's the resident beat-em-up expert on our board.
Personally, though, I still stand by my opinion that hack n' slash games are basically just a sub-category of beat-em-ups, with the beat-em-up category itself basically being a sub-category of the action game genre.
What part of me saying 3D did you not understand? I bolded it specifically so we could avoid this shout fest. :D But seriously, I consider 2D hack n slashes and beat em ups to be in the same genre due to how they usually have players on street level and that they have them advance through the levels in the same way. Yes, 3D hack n slash usually don't have that much platforming but you got to admit that their level designs are usually drastically different than beat em ups. The levels in The Warriors are nothing like Devil May Cry's.
Quote from: Foggle on April 11, 2011, 10:20:02 PM
I've never understood why Ninja Gaiden is not looked upon as favorably as the rest of the "big 4" hack 'n slash franchises (big 3 if you don't consider Bayonetta to be a franchise yet). It's rare that I see anyone criticize it using any explanation other than "it's hard" (so are the first and third DMC games) or "the camera is bad" (even though it's far better than the ones in DMC 1 and the first two God of War games).
God, I hate when people whine about how hard some hack n slashes are. I don't sympathize with anything less than having to grind through The Thing or that damn Serious Same The First Encounter demo I can't get past.
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsource%3Dimgres%26amp%3Bct%3Dimg%26amp%3Bq%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwiimedia.ign.com%2Fwii%2Fimage%2Farticle%2F103%2F1039474%2Fgolden-axe-arcade-20091027004846370_640w.jpg%26amp%3Bsa%3DX%26amp%3Bei%3DItqkTcS_IOri0gGF8pTZCA%26amp%3Bved%3D0CAQQ8wc%26amp%3Busg%3DAFQjCNEWTil6CXQwrAzLnHpi19ZS1cqeCQ&hash=3c8154dc16349e9f7920c3f0591681a606abc0f1)
End of discussion.
^Revenge Of Death Adder is better. ;)
They seem to be the same to me; one genre favors weapons with occasional power spell and the others prefer fists with the occasional weapon/vehicle/animal. Some have damage bars thanks to games like Final Fight, and they generally have more linear fighting sequences than platforming or puzzle solving. Plenty of small fries to make you feel like you can kick ass before the boss does the same to you.
Discussion time:
Alright, every now and then I'll start up some discussion questions to get some conversations going on random threads and random times. For now I'll do it for hack n' slash games, and I may do it for other game threads as well as animation threads later on.
Anyways, the topic of discussion is the DMC series.
How do you all feel about DMC1 and its creation and influence of the 3D hack n' slash genre? Also, how do you feel about the sequels, including 2, and of course 3 and 4 as well? Did any of them improve on the gameplay or make it worse, or are they just too formulaic and unwilling to take risks from DMC1?
And to elaborate on that last question with another question: How do people feel about Kamiya's statement that no developer had picked up the baton from DMC1 (in that everyone was making inferior action games to DMC1 since it came out) except for God of War? This if of course before he released Bayonetta, which he claimed would be the best action game of all-time when it came out, and while I wouldn't personally call it the best, I'd say it comes pretty damn close to it.
I'll give my thoughts on these later, but I want to hear what other people have to say about this.
I have only ever played Devil May Cry 1, but for me it was enough to satiate my appetite for the genre for a long time. I never played 2 because of the horrible impressions everyone was spouting about it, and by the time 3 came out, I had moved on to mostly GBA gaming at the time so I don't really know much about the series as a whole.
The first game was awesome at the time, it was almost like playing an over the top action anime or something, with crazy moves and bosses, and a fun setting and story. It set a whole new standard at the time. I haven't played it in years, but I still remember the experience being a real revelation.
And let's be honest, Kamiya and Itagaki have always had a rivalry going on so when he says only GOW comes close to the same impact you know he's doing it for a reaction.
IMO, GOW is basically the Call Of Duty of the beat em up genre. All flash, no lasting impact.
Quote from: Desensitized on April 13, 2011, 12:51:53 AM
I have only ever played Devil May Cry 1, but for me it was enough to satiate my appetite for the genre for a long time. I never played 2 because of the horrible impressions everyone was spouting about it, and by the time 3 came out, I had moved on to mostly GBA gaming at the time so I don't really know much about the series as a whole.
The first game was awesome at the time, it was almost like playing an over the top action anime or something, with crazy moves and bosses, and a fun setting and story. It set a whole new standard at the time. I haven't played it in years, but I still remember the experience being a real revelation.
My opinion may be invalid since I've only really gotten the opportunity to play a few hours worth of both 1 and 3, but while I think 1 is a fantastic game for its time that has actually aged better than I would expect, I don't necessarily feel that it has aged perfectly. To be quite honest I feel that Capcom managed to surpass the 1st game without Kamiya's further involvement with DMC3 (I'd argue that DMC4 once again takes a step back in the series, but its still a decent game which I'm sure is probably a hell of a lot better than DMC2, on the whole). To me it made sure to capitalize on the elements that made the game really work in the first place, and that was the speed, intensity, and overall challenge of the gameplay. The levels were more linear but in DMC's case I felt that was a better choice since it lead to faster-paced gameplay. It also had a much improved combat system, and for some reason in DMC3's case its the only DMC game that seemed to elevate the enemy AI to at least a little bit above brain dead, in that they were actually fairly challenging since they attacked more often that in previous DMC games, and also of course more than in the later released DMC4 as well.
Also, while its still far from anything great and I'm don't put too much emphasis on this aspect of action games anyways, I thin that DMC3 actually had a pretty decent story, and also had some really over-the-top yet insanely fun cutscenes to go along with it. Overall it seems like the complete package for a DMC game, to me, but I still have yet to beat it, to be honest, so my opinion may change if I ever get to own a PS2 along with this games, where I can sit down and play them both a fair amount to really evaluate how I feel about each of them.
QuoteAnd let's be honest, Kamiya and Itagaki have always had a rivalry going on so when he says only GOW comes close to the same impact you know he's doing it for a reaction.
Interestingly enough, to add to this point, Itagaki basically did the same thing not too long before Kamiya said this. I mean that he actually praised God of War as his only worthy competitor, but said that he didn't find DMC to be any fun. To be honest, while Itagaki is the only one who gets called out on it, I have a firm belief that all game developers are a little arrogant, including Kamiya himself, but to be honest that's kind of a good thing since their big egos and huge level of confidence seem to play a big part in contributing to the overall quality of their games.
At any rate, its fine for Kamiya to believe and say what he wants, but personally I kind of disagree with his statement. I would argue that Ninja Gaiden really did pick up the baton after DMC, and it pretty much ran with it until Bayonetta finally came out.
QuoteIMO, GOW is basically the Call Of Duty of the beat em up genre. All flash, no lasting impact.
Agreed. And, to be specific, I don't hate God of War by any means. Sometime I act like I do but really I'm just more pissed at how much it has spoiled a lot of critics and fans, in that it gets treated like the standard that all hack n' slash games should abide by, which I think is a load of crap because aside from being the best looking and technically proficient (in terms of environments and graphics and such) game in the genre, it really doesn't do anything else better than any other game in the genre, IMO (unless you want to get into story, in which case I don't care about story when it comes to hack n' slash games, and while GoW's story may be better told than most other games in the genre, it still never managed to hold my interest, personally).
God of War on its own is a fine game I'm sure, but I just find its combat to be pretty stale, personally, and I'm not really the biggest fan of QTEs. The visuals are nice and all, but the thing is that after a while I feel that when other games catch up to it in terms of visuals, people may just find that the actual gameplay hasn't aged all that well.
Quote from: Desensitized on April 12, 2011, 02:41:56 PM
The main difference between a hack n' slash and a beat 'em up, from what I can gather, is usually speed. Though there are slow hack n slash games and fast beat em ups (Golden Axe: Revenge Of Death Adder and Viewtiful Joe come to mind immediately), they both seem to follow similar ideas.
Beat em ups are usually focused on anticipating at a leisurely pace and dealing out damage in a similar manner. For instance, in Streets Of Rage to get the most damaging attacks out of Axel you have to carefully time your hits to stun the enemy and space button presses in order to not knock the enemy over but do as much damage as possible such as a falling knee drop into a back-suplex on a rising opponent or three slow punches into a grabbing headbutt. Tactics vary on enemies, but you can usually go at your own pace and going fast, even with fast characters is usually a bad idea. Beat em ups are more about enemy encounters and less about level design, though both are important, the first is always more so.
From what I can tell, even games like the Warriors and God Hand follow this same principle.
Hack n Slash requires mastery of the level design itself and multiple weapons over anticipating enemy behavior. While it is important to know your enemy in every action game, knowing your weapons and what they can or can't do is by far the most crucial element to the design. As is knowing your environment in order to speed your way through.
Also, the main reason 2D games have platforming elements is because they can add dynamic situations into the combat to make it feel more exciting. 3D games don't do this as much because they are able to have a lot more going on screen and adding things like hopping platforms while fighting off 4-5 enemies and oncoming projectiles is too much for the average player. Which is why usually when they contain those elements, it is usually separate from the fighting. With 2D you can see all the action going on, so platforming at the same time is not as much of a distraction from the action.
It all originates from Irem's Kung Fu, anyway. Then everyone got their own ideas and we got fighting games, beat em ups, hack n slashers, and even action RPGs based on the simple concept that game brought out.
But, IMO, I do think all of them have different styles to the same formula, so it is easy to see why some prefer certain takes on the idea over others.
I love doing stuff like that.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 13, 2011, 12:26:31 AM
Discussion time:
Alright, every now and then I'll start up some discussion questions to get some conversations going on random threads and random times. For now I'll do it for hack n' slash games, and I may do it for other game threads as well as animation threads later on.
Anyways, the topic of discussion is the DMC series.
How do you all feel about DMC1 and its creation and influence of the 3D hack n' slash genre? Also, how do you feel about the sequels, including 2, and of course 3 and 4 as well? Did any of them improve on the gameplay or make it worse, or are they just too formulaic and unwilling to take risks from DMC1?
And to elaborate on that last question with another question: How do people feel about Kamiya's statement that no developer had picked up the baton from DMC1 (in that everyone was making inferior action games to DMC1 since it came out) except for God of War? This if of course before he released Bayonetta, which he claimed would be the best action game of all-time when it came out, and while I wouldn't personally call it the best, I'd say it comes pretty damn close to it.
I'll give my thoughts on these later, but I want to hear what other people have to say about this.
DMC1 is pretty much the only game developers used as a good influence. Besides that, we got bad GoW ripoffs and no game to my knowledge has been influenced by NG (unfortunately)
I like DMC1 the most due to how much fun the enemies and bosses are. The sequels have muchless exciting enemies imo. DMC3 improved the controls, camera and added some good new moves. That's about it. It still had the same overuse of backtracking and inferior enemies/bosses.
I like DMC 4's enemies and bosses more than DMC 3's. Not as good as DMC1's though. And like I've said before, I prefer Nero's moves to any version of Dante's. This game probably has the worst backtracking in the series though.
DMC2...it's okay for a hack n slash game, horrible for a DMC game.
Quote from: gunswordfist on April 14, 2011, 01:35:21 PM
DMC1 is pretty much the only game developers used as a good influence. Besides that, we got bad GoW ripoffs and no game to my knowledge has been influenced by NG (unfortunately).
Well, yeah, DMC is an obvious one since it pretty much got the 3D hack n' slash game its big start, and God of War and NG took obvious influence from it (Itagaki claimed that he didn't take influence from DMC, but I know that statement is full of shit since there are some obvious design choices that came straight from DMC1 that he used in NG). But then for some reason every other talentless half-assed developer seemed to think it was a good idea to rip-off God of War from that point. I could understand being influenced by its large scale and big bosses and stuff, but really I would think that more games would want to try and rip-off either DMC or NG when it came to their combat systems, as its common knowledge that they are superior to God of War in that regard (in fact if I'm not mistaken, the creator of God of War even admitted that DMC at least had superior combat to any GoW game).
QuoteI like DMC1 the most due to how much fun the enemies and bosses are. The sequels have muchless exciting enemies imo. DMC3 improved the controls, camera and added some good new moves. That's about it. It still had the same overuse of backtracking and inferior enemies/bosses.
I agree that the enemy designs and level design were superior in DMC1, and that the developers got lazy with a lot of stuff in DMC3 and 4, but for me the reason I prefer 3 over 1 is mainly because of the improved combat, which I honestly find to be more fun than in the 1st game.
QuoteI like DMC 4's enemies and bosses more than DMC 3's. Not as good as DMC1's though. And like I've said before, I prefer Nero's moves to any version of Dante's. This game probably has the worst backtracking in the series though.
My problem with Nero is the fact that I think the Devil Bringer is way too overpowered. Using it to bring enemies closer to you to continue chaining combos is cool, but the fact that its so easy to spam it on enemies to take them out faster and easier really hurts Nero's combat, IMO. They should have at least made it harder to do that by punishing you for spamming the Devil Bringer as an attack, or only allow it to be used to deal any sort of damage while in Devil Trigger mode. I try to avoid using it too much, myself, but then there's the other problem that I have with Nero, which is basically that he's restricted to just one weapon set throughout the entire game. I would honestly much prefer it if Capcom had at least given him another couple of Weapons in the game like they did for Dante, so that I could experiment with more combo possibilities rather than relying on his one sword and magnum.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 14, 2011, 02:56:38 PM
Quote from: gunswordfist on April 14, 2011, 01:35:21 PM
DMC1 is pretty much the only game developers used as a good influence. Besides that, we got bad GoW ripoffs and no game to my knowledge has been influenced by NG (unfortunately).
Well, yeah, DMC is an obvious one since it pretty much got the 3D hack n' slash game its big start, and God of War and NG took obvious influence from it (Itagaki claimed that he didn't take influence from DMC, but I know that statement is full of shit since there are some obvious design choices that came straight from DMC1 that he used in NG). But then for some reason every other talentless half-assed developer seemed to think it was a good idea to rip-off God of War from that point. I could understand being influenced by its large scale and big bosses and stuff, but really I would think that more games would want to try and rip-off either DMC or NG when it came to their combat systems, as its common knowledge that they are superior to God of War in that regard (in fact if I'm not mistaken, the creator of God of War even admitted that DMC at least had superior combat to any GoW game).
QuoteI like DMC1 the most due to how much fun the enemies and bosses are. The sequels have muchless exciting enemies imo. DMC3 improved the controls, camera and added some good new moves. That's about it. It still had the same overuse of backtracking and inferior enemies/bosses.
I agree that the enemy designs and level design were superior in DMC1, and that the developers got lazy with a lot of stuff in DMC3 and 4, but for me the reason I prefer 3 over 1 is mainly because if the improved combat, which I honestly find to be more fun than in the 1st game.
DMC3 does have improved combat but I don't think that is it for it to surprass how fun it is to fight just about anything in DMC1.
QuoteI like DMC 4's enemies and bosses more than DMC 3's. Not as good as DMC1's though. And like I've said before, I prefer Nero's moves to any version of Dante's. This game probably has the worst backtracking in the series though.
My problem with Nero is the fact that I think the Devil Bringer is way too overpowered. Using it to bring enemies closer to you to continue chaining combos is cool, but the fact that its so easy to spam it on enemies to take them out faster and easier really hurts Nero's combat, IMO. They should have at least made it harder to do that by punishing you for spamming the Devil Bringer as an attack, or only allow it to be used to deal any sort of damage while in Devil Trigger mode. I try to avoid using it too much, myself, but then there's the other problem that I have with Nero, which is basically that he's restricted to just one weapon set throughout the entire game. I would honestly much prefer it if Capcom had at least given him another couple of Weapons in the game like they did for Dante, so that I could experiment with more combo possibilities rather than relying on his one sword and magnum.
Yeah, Nero's Devil Bringer and his limited weaponry are his downfalls. I still prefer his sword moves to any of Dante's weapon's moves. Those air combos won me over.
Alright, so as far as my comparison of NG2 and DMC4 goes, I'll give my brief thoughts on them.
In some ways both games show that they have moved a little bit forward with the gameplay, but for everything they do right on the whole, I feel that they are both still a step back from their predecessors on the consoles of last generation.
I'm currently on mission 6 of DMD mode on DMC4, and I'm guessing that the game's focus is more about performing highly stylish combos and getting high rankings rather than actually beating the game since the difficulty level mostly feels pretty tame compared to NG2's higher difficulties (I suppose Hell or Hell would be really challenging, but not necessarily due to tough design, since its more about just not getting hit, period). One thing that I like better about NG2 is that its enemies are actually designed to be very offensive, which forces the player to switch between being highly offensive and carefully defensive at the right times. DMC4 On the other hand is almost 100% offensive, since only Dante can block in one of his styles and other than that all you can really do most of the time is dodge enemy attacks either with a roll or with the i-frames that you get from a regular jump. NG2 Has a lot of that as well, but it also forces you to utilize blocks more often than that.
As for the combat systems, I think that its all based on preference. With DMC's general combat system, its based more on stringing together various different combos and juggling your enemies to build up your stylish ranking, which is why it gives you the ability to switch between weapons and styles on the fly with Dante, and its also pretty much why Nero's Devil Bringer arm is even there to begin with, since its mostly a useful tool for grabbing enemies from a distance toward you so that you can continue chaining combos without being interrupted. That said, I prefer NG2's combat which instead gives you 8 individual melee weapons which you can't switch between, but which each have a huge variety of moves and combos and each have their own advantageous uses against certain enemies, while being weak choices against others. So in that regard, NG's weapons are used more strategically rather than for chaining combos, though there are still plenty of combos to chain with each weapon alone. Also the combat just generally feels more fast-paced in NG, with the controls being extremely responsive in that game (though, I haven't played the PS3 version of DMC4, so for all I know it could have more responsive controls than the XBOX360 version, being that it was designed with a PS3 controller in mind, anyways). Aside from that, I also just prefer not having to individually target any enemies for melee combat in NG2, whereas with DMC4 you're pretty much forced to do that to pull off most of the moves in the game.
One thing I'll give DMC4 credit for, though, is having an all around more polished design. As we all know, NG2 ended up being rushed out into release and wasn't really a finished game, hence why it had a few cheap shots mostly due to a jittery camera which wasn't as fine-tuned as it needed to be. I hear people complain about DMC4's camera, but aside form the horrendous platforming segments, its not really that bad. As for NG, while I found it completely ridiculous that any critics complained about that game's camera as much as they did (and I blame them for Team Ninja deciding to change it in the first place, since it was fine the way it is and they just couldn't admit to sucking at the game when they were no good at doing something), I have to say that I myself have quite a few issues with NG2's camera. Now to be clear, its still not nearly as bad as some gamers make it out to be, as the fact that you have almost complete control over it and can change it to your preferences quickly makes it more convenient than a fixed camera angle in some situations, and also helps make it more tolerable than it initially seems, in general. However, after having replayed some of the game, recently, its issue is that they gave too many enemies ranged attacks and allowed them to attack from off-screen, and while it wasn't a problem if an enemy with a melee attack could attack you from off-screen (since you would most likely catch them on-screen anyways before their attack landed on you), getting constantly stunned by off-screen projectiles was really a nuisance in some areas. That said, it was mainly only an issue on the harder difficulties, and could still be dealt with if you strategically positioned yourself where the environment played to your advantage. Also, I wasn't a fan of how glitchy and buggy the game could be at times, aside from its camera issues.
Now, to be fair, I can equally rail on something that annoys me about DMC4's design, and in this case its not due to a rushed product but from something much worse: developers who were obviously being VERY lazy and tried to get away with half-assing the level design. It seems like they were trying to give off the illusion of a semi-metroid-esque level design in which you went back to certain areas and unlocked alternate paths to get to a place that you previous couldn't have gotten to before, but really its just a linear game that cuts down the amount of levels the developers had to design by about half by having Dante literally just back-track through all of Nero's levels (and in that regard, Nero even had to backtrack his own levels from time to time, making matters worse). At least NG had a completely unique level for each chapter that was different from the last, and there was only ever one instance in which you had to backtrack through a certain area in the game and in that case it was actually welcome because it was only for a small part of the level and was meant as a bit of nostalgia for fans since it was a very popular area from the first game, so it actually meant something to be going back through it. So, overall, while I find that NGB has superior level design to NG2 (and in that regard DMC1 has superior level design to any of its sequels), NG2 still had a good level design that suited it and the environments all felt unique, and at least the game didn't try to hide the fact that it was linear, whereas DMC4 tried to do so and failed miserably at it, as it was both obvious backtracking and it was boring to have to revisit the same exact environments without any hint of variety to them.
I'll give DMC4 a bit more credit, though, in one other regard: Its boss fights are at least competent and somewhat enjoyable except for when you have to fight them a third time through in the story mode....
As for NG2, though, aside from Genshin, Rasetsu, and maybe a few other exceptions, most of its boss fights were just a mess, but at least they went by really quickly which helped to make them more tolerable than they would have been had they lasted a bit longer like DMC's boss fights (though to be fair, the more skilled you are as a player the faster those fights can go by, especially if you abuse the hell out of devil trigger attacks).
At any rate, on the whole I still prefer NG2 for its faster-pacing in its action, its level design, and its combat, and also for its more aggressive enemies which just feel more satisfying to kill. DMC4 boasts a more polished design on the whole, but it also comes off as very lazy and it suffers from having its action interrupted by horrible platforming segments and puzzle solving (NG2 has some of this, as well, but it happens much more infrequently in that game so it doesn't really hold it down that much, IMO). Admittedy my opinion is biased as I have grown to prefer NG in general since I've played that game far more, but it also just fits my general preferences better, rather than it being responsible for setting my preferences in the first place.
Oh yeah, and if you're wondering why I didn't bother comparing their stories, its because their both shit, IMO (though, DMC at least has some kind of funny cut-scenes for Dante, even if his cheesy dialogue isn't necessarily intentionally funny in a ridiculously over-the-top sort of way).
Bump because I need someplace to post the new combat trailer for the Ninja Theory "DmC" game.
http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/dmc-devil-may-cry-gameplay?size=large (http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/dmc-devil-may-cry-gameplay?size=large)
It looks...okay I guess. I'll post my full thoughts after I get a good sleep.
Quote from: Rynnec on August 16, 2011, 04:56:16 AM
Bump because I need someplace to post the new combat trailer for the Ninja Theory "DmC" game.
http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/dmc-devil-may-cry-gameplay?size=large (http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/dmc-devil-may-cry-gameplay?size=large)
It looks...okay I guess. I'll post my full thoughts after I get a good sleep.
That was actually pretty good.
I've never played a DMC game but I have played Bayonetta. I like it a lot but, boy, I sure do suck at it.
Quote from: Eddy on August 16, 2011, 10:51:58 AM
I've never played a DMC game but I have played Bayonetta. I like it a lot but, boy, I sure do suck at it.
I can't get past the first level of Bayonetta's Hard mode.
http://www.siliconera.com/2011/08/16/dmc-devil-may-cry-dante-is-half-devil-and-half-angel/ (http://www.siliconera.com/2011/08/16/dmc-devil-may-cry-dante-is-half-devil-and-half-angel/)
:shit:
Just when I was getting ready to tolerate the game.
The sad thing is that even though I still very unimpressed with what I've seen of the gameplay, it still looks better than what I've seen of NG3. Seriously, the direction that game is headed in is REALLY disappointing me, thanks to the new leader being completely incompetent in designing a proper hack n' slash game. At least the new DmC doesn't seem to have any QTE's....yet, at least. And on top of that at least you can still chain combos in the gameplay without being interrupted by randomized slow-down in which your blade gets needlessly stuck into an enemy.
Sorry, I'm kind of in my "NG3 is going to suck" bitching phase, now that I have had long enough to realize just what this game is already doing wrong right now.
This is going to kill the Devil May Cry series.
The DMC series was already pretty much dead with Capcom in its current state clearly not giving a fuck out of any of its popular series that aren't called Resident Evil. This game will merely just stomp all over its dead corpse (I refuse to acknowledge it as an actual DMC game, but a bad attempt at cloning a DMC game).
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on August 16, 2011, 06:11:55 PM
The sad thing is that even though I still very unimpressed with what I've seen of the gameplay, it still looks better than what I've seen of NG3. Seriously, the direction that game is headed in is REALLY disappointing me, thanks to the new leader being completely incompetent in designing a proper hack n' slash game. At least the new DmC doesn't seem to have any QTE's....yet, at least. And on top of that at least you can still chain combos in the gameplay without being interrupted by randomized slow-down in which your blade gets needlessly stuck into an enemy.
Sorry, I'm kind of in my "NG3 is going to suck" bitching phase, now that I have had long enough to realize just what this game is already doing wrong right now.
WHAT?!
Quote from: gunswordfist on August 16, 2011, 07:36:01 PM
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on August 16, 2011, 06:11:55 PM
The sad thing is that even though I still very unimpressed with what I've seen of the gameplay, it still looks better than what I've seen of NG3. Seriously, the direction that game is headed in is REALLY disappointing me, thanks to the new leader being completely incompetent in designing a proper hack n' slash game. At least the new DmC doesn't seem to have any QTE's....yet, at least. And on top of that at least you can still chain combos in the gameplay without being interrupted by randomized slow-down in which your blade gets needlessly stuck into an enemy.
Sorry, I'm kind of in my "NG3 is going to suck" bitching phase, now that I have had long enough to realize just what this game is already doing wrong right now.
WHAT?!
Yeah, I did a double-take when I saw that, too. What the fuck is Hayashi thinking!?
Quote from: Foggle on August 16, 2011, 07:52:22 PM
Quote from: gunswordfist on August 16, 2011, 07:36:01 PM
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on August 16, 2011, 06:11:55 PM
The sad thing is that even though I still very unimpressed with what I've seen of the gameplay, it still looks better than what I've seen of NG3. Seriously, the direction that game is headed in is REALLY disappointing me, thanks to the new leader being completely incompetent in designing a proper hack n' slash game. At least the new DmC doesn't seem to have any QTE's....yet, at least. And on top of that at least you can still chain combos in the gameplay without being interrupted by randomized slow-down in which your blade gets needlessly stuck into an enemy.
Sorry, I'm kind of in my "NG3 is going to suck" bitching phase, now that I have had long enough to realize just what this game is already doing wrong right now.
WHAT?!
Yeah, I did a double-take when I saw that, too. What the fuck is Hayashi thinking!?
That's the worst shit I've ever heard. :shit: Poor EK
Oh, that shit's just the tip of the iceburg. You do know that Hayashi is now officially promoting Move support with NG3 now? He also confirmed that every other weapon from previous games have been removed in favor of weapons that are all just variations of the Dragon Sword....So, yeah, he killed the variety of the diverse weapon arsenals from the previous games.
At this point its no surprise to anyone that this game is going to be a piece of shit. As an NG fan who only just wanted a proper sequel to NGB after ALL THESE YEARS (I love NG2 and all, but come on, it pales in comparison to the first game)....It looks like I'll never be getting it.
There goes my hopes for a new 2D Ninja Gaiden game! If they can't even get the basics of a hack n slash game right, then what hope do I have for a 2D sidescroller?
He'd probably make those birds instantly kill you this time.
Funny that you mention that, because he in fact did the worst possible thing anyone could possibly do to an NG game and added in OHK moves for enemies and bosses in NGS2. The original version of the game for the XBOX360 was far from perfectly balanced, but at least it never deliberately caused you cheap deaths through single-hits. Even on Master Ninja mode you could take a fair amount of abuse before biting the dust. In NGS2 it became all about playing things extremely safe if you didn't want to get taken down by an unlucky hit that pretty much killed the point of you even having a health bar in the first place (this was only on Master Ninja mode, but still he killed that difficulty by making it even worse than in NG2 on the X360).
This guy clearly doesn't understand a single thing about what makes the first 2 NG games great games. For one thing, if he listened to ANY fans at all like he claimed to, he would have gone back to creating more open level designs and room for exploration like what NGB had. I'd love a Metroidvania Gaiden fully realized. The slick and fast paced action of an NG game combined with elements of exploration and interesting level design. Instead he keeps the levels linear and from the level I've seen so far in the demo, he also makes them look bland (at least the ones in NG2 looked over the top and interesting, sort of like a classic 2D action game in a 3D realm, IMO).
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on August 16, 2011, 08:24:06 PM
Funny that you mention that, because he in fact did the worst possible thing anyone could possibly do to an NG game and added in OHK moves for enemies and bosses in NGS2. The original version of the game for the XBOX360 was far from perfectly balanced, but at least it never deliberately caused you cheap deaths through single-hits. Even on Master Ninja mode you could take a fair amount of abuse before biting the dust. In NGS2 it became all about playing things extremely safe if you didn't want to get taken down by an unlucky hit that pretty much killed the point of you even having a health bar in the first place (this was only on Master Ninja mode, but still he killed that difficulty by making it even worse than in NG2 on the X360).
Damn, single hit kills in a 3D game are bogus. Are the Sigma games still worth getting though? I've played the Sigma 1 demo and enjoyed that, but how do they compare to the originals?
QuoteThis guy clearly doesn't understand a single thing about what makes the first 2 NG games great games. For one thing, if he listened to ANY fans at all like he claimed to, he would have gone back to creating more open level designs and room for exploration like what NGB had. I'd love a Metroidvania Gaiden fully realized. The slick and fast paced action of an NG game combined with elements of exploration and interesting level design. Instead he keeps the levels linear and from the level I've seen so far in the demo, he also makes them look bland (at least the ones in NG2 looked over the top and interesting, sort of like a classic 2D action game in a 3D realm, IMO).
While I don't think the backgrounds in the demo look bland, I am dissapointed that you spend most of the level on the ground. City levels look a lot more interesting when your on top of really tall skyscrapers.
Quote from: Rynnec on August 16, 2011, 09:02:16 PM
Damn, single hit kills in a 3D game are bogus.
Especially when the game is designed around aggressive enemies that constantly try to find every opportunity to attack you. Even though the enemy count is reduced in Sigma 2 its still reidiculous to think that one annoying grab move will give you a Game Over. That just doesn't work with the mechanics of NG2 which isn't necessarily designed for no damage runs (even if it were completely balanced). Of course, playing Sigma 2 on Master Ninja almost forces you to do a no damage run. Even in the first game in which you could do no damage runs on the highest difficulty, it still doesn't fit in with the game's mechanics, IMO. With DMC there are modes like Hell and Hell in which you die in one hit but in that game its OK since I feel that its mechanics are more supporting of that type of gameplay, especially since the enemies don't all try to attack you at once, but in NG the enemy AI is supposed to be more aggressive so anyone who gives them OHK moves clearly doesn't understand how NG is supposed to play.
QuoteAre the Sigma games still worth getting though? I've played the Sigma 1 demo and enjoyed that, but how do they compare to the originals?
The first Sigma game is fine. Its mostly a straight-up HD port of Ninja Gaiden Black from the XBOX with some additional content (though not all of it is necessarily good). Aside from having to play through the boring Rachael missions (which my only gripe with is that they can't be skipped in the main story-line....and that they are slow and boring), its a great game, but only because its basically NGB in HD. Some of the puzzles from NGB were also removed which I felt was unnecessarily, but on the plus side it is a bit faster paced if you aren't into puzzle solving breaking up some of the action (there weren't that many in the original game, anyways, so its not a big change). I think its worth giving a shot, especially since its pretty cheap and easy to find these days. It should be noted that its quite a bit different mechanically from most other hack n' slash games. It doesn't have a target lock-on feature like DMC but instead works by allowing Ryu to automatically hit the enemy closest to him and rather than featuring more fixed camera angles it gives you control of the camera (which honestly isn't as bad as some people say, IMO, if you get used to the way the game works). The game is also more about being a bit strategic with your weapon use (you can't change them on the fly like in DMC, which most people don't like but I don't mind it since the game is designed with different mechanics that support single-weapon use type of gameplay), so while you can get through the whole game just using the default weapon (the Dragon Sword), it is a lot more fun (and easier) to experiment with weapons and find which ones work best in certain situations and against certain enemies.
The first 3D NG game is my personal favorite game of all time. I can't say whether you would like it as much as something like Bayonetta which is probably a more objectively great game, but I do think you would enjoy it if you played through it, so I certainly recommend it.
As for the 2nd game, Sigma 2 is quite a bit different than NG2 on the XBOX360. Its made a lot easier on the lower difficulty settings and needlessly harder in the wrong ways on Master Ninja mode. For what its worth, it strives to be different enough from NG2 (rather than just fixing its balance issues and adding content, which is what I would have preferred) that its probably worth checking out at least through a rental. Some people really like it while others like myself aren't really very fond of it, but its certainly not a bad game or anything at its core so as long as you don't mind lowered enemy counts and blood and gore replaced with purple mist, then maybe its at least worth checking out the demo. That's all I can say for it, though. To be fair I can't really say whether you'd like NG2 or not as it has balance issues that you would need to look past to enjoy it, but for me its a great game at its core that was just unfortunate to have to be rushed into release and therefore is an unfinished game. Its till one of my personal favorite games of this generation, though.
QuoteWhile I don't think the backgrounds in the demo look bland, I am dissapointed that you spend most of the level on the ground. City levels look a lot more interesting when your on top of really tall skyscrapers.
Well, to clarify what I meant about the backgrounds, I don't think that they look bad graphically or anything like that, but they look way to plain. To me they look like the type of backgrounds you could just as easily find in a generic FPS game. I preferred how bizarre the environments in the older games were. They had more old-school game design to their sensitivity than any sense of realism, which is personally what I prefer. To be fair, only one level has been shown to the public so far for NG3, and there will be other stages obviously, so perhaps other parts of the game will look better, but as it stands the level design in NG3 so far looks adequate to me, but ultimately uninspired.
I was really hoping for something reminiscent of the first level of NG2 on the NES, where you were jumping on top of building-tops and the like (very much like what you mentioned, which to me is more fitting of an NG game).
When you think of Ninja Gaiden, this is the first thing you think of:
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fxbox360media.gamespy.com%2Fxbox360%2Fimage%2Farticle%2F869%2F869347%2Fninja-gaiden-ii-20080424035850148-000.jpg&hash=8f81f64ef3f37dbf654306f95fbd269d3a4be7b6)
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fguidesmedia.ign.com%2Fguides%2F775527%2Fimages%2F590%2Fch01_K.jpg&hash=155d0ab86f9920a39db8da9ac823f2f6dda8609f)
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvideogamecritic.net%2Fimages%2Fnes%2Fninja_gaiden_ii__the_dark_sword_of_chaos.jpg&hash=90147d3029812af1e7c958ea790f2f2e1585f128)
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwiimedia.ign.com%2Fwii%2Fimage%2Farticle%2F855%2F855283%2Fninja-gaiden-iii-the-ancient-ship-of-doom-virtual-console-20080227074206773-000.jpg&hash=bbb078739c5d042dbd0f78d6155d19b53de57937)
Ninja Gaiden works best to me atmospherically separate from "normal society", the appeal to me is that the games feels like all this action is happening just close enough to us, but still out of our depth, Which is why I like the "almost like the real world but skewed" design sense the games let off.
Playing on gritty streets is boring and totally lacking in the "epic" feel it gives off.
Before anyone mentions it, I don't like stage 1 of Ninja Gaiden 1 NES. I think that level is lazy as hell.
Well, I can't fault Stage 1 myself for being perfectly designed as a "getting used to the game mechanics and into the gameplay" sort of stage that it is, but it is pretty bland compared to most other NG stages. NG2 on the NES really nailed the atmosphere that is proper for an NG game, though, IMO. I also really came to appreciate NG3's (NES version, here) very technological and futuristic level design. The first 2 games from Itagaki's reboot really brought back that spirit of level design from the classic NES games. To me, trying to make a realistic looking level in an NG game is missing the whole point of the series. Its supposed to be ridiculous to have a ninja running around in a semi-futuristic world. If you take it seriously, you're making something that's intentionally fun and over the top become unintentionally bad and ludicrous in all of the wrong ways, IMO.
Stuff like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YOcLjhURD4&hd=1), this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRCAfrzks04&feature=related), this (//http://) and this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAaJU7Tfz-k) is what I want to see in an NG game.
I mean, fighting a fucking 4-armed Werewolf in a Roman Colosseum (a realistic setting in a very over-the-top and completely absurd situation) or a dragon composed entirely of bones in a secret underground burial ground is pretty fucking epic, IMO. Fighting weak terrorists in modern city streets who put up little fight and constantly beg for their lives and cower at the mere site of Ryu is not my idea of "exciting."
In comparison, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo8HqZ43kHk&feature=related) just looks kind of "meh" to me, personally.
The basic idea of a ninja running through open streets while blowing shit up in plain view seems very, uh... un-ninja to me. Secluded environments, and deserted structures, as well as running above the normal world or below it just out of sight makes more sense and feels Ninja Gaiden to me. Like I said, just slightly out of reach of the normal world, but not actually in it running through the open city in plain view killing mercenaries and blowing things up.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on August 16, 2011, 08:13:33 PM
Oh, that shit's just the tip of the iceburg. You do know that Hayashi is now officially promoting Move support with NG3 now? He also confirmed that every other weapon from previous games have been removed in favor of weapons that are all just variations of the Dragon Sword....So, yeah, he killed the variety of the diverse weapon arsenals from the previous games.
At this point its no surprise to anyone that this game is going to be a piece of shit. As an NG fan who only just wanted a proper sequel to NGB after ALL THESE YEARS (I love NG2 and all, but come on, it pales in comparison to the first game)....It looks like I'll never be getting it.
I heard you talk about the sword and shit like how Ryu will only get them in specific parts of the story but Move support is another level of :shit: Yep, series is dead. A regular moron would have just made the game play like NG2 and threw in pointless multiplayer. Hayashi isn't a regualr moron...
Here's a few rumours about "DmC"
- There is little to no humour in the game. That part in the first trailer where Dante burns a monster with his cigarette is apparently pretty much the only example of what the devs thought was "funny".
- The new Devil Trigger (with the "old Dante" look) is never explained in-game and was put in to try and appease the fans.
- The next actual DMC game was supposed to be a prequel about Sparda. It would detail the origins of Yamato, his battle with Mundus, and how he met Eva, but the project was canned before it ever got off the ground.
- Pre order bonuses and day 1 DLC were "discussed"
- A lot of staff quit the project
- There's a new series planned if this one is successful, so we'll probably not be seeing the old Dante again
- Tameem's entire job consists of researching "underground and cool" things.
- The combat system is going to be based on Heavenly Sword's
Once again, just rumours. So we have no way of knowing if any of this is true or not. (Seriously though, Heavenly Sword? I know I haven't played the game yet, but it's combat looks boring as fuck.)
Here's something that is true though.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-08-17-dmc-sceptics-secretly-want-to-like-it (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-08-17-dmc-sceptics-secretly-want-to-like-it)
:srs:
Tameem Antoniades went on to tackle the issue of frame rate. The Devil May Cry prequel will run at only 30 frames per second, whereas old Devil May Cry games opted for 60FPS.
Antoniades said his game will be "locked" at 30FPS, and that the reduction allows his team to add "stuff like the world changing" - the way levels can transform dramatically during gameplay.
:shit:
WHAT THE FUCK :whuh: :whuh: :whuh: :whuh:
30fps...
Remember last gen when people asked for 60fps with a slight graphical dip instead? If it has a great artstyle, who's going to notice or care how good it looks (Oh wait).
If the new Timesplitters turns out to be 30fps I'm going to be really disappointed as well.
Quote from: Foggle on August 17, 2011, 04:34:14 PM
WHAT THE FUCK :whuh: :whuh: :whuh: :whuh:
My sentiments, exactly. This has been the week of the worse hack n slash news ever.
Ninja Theory: Hey kids, since we want eyeballs to pointlessly form in the stages and some floating buildings and shit, the gameplay will be half as slow as the original. Okay, thanks.
To sacrifice the game speed for some God damn background animation is stupid.
If they're gonna slow down the game so they could add more background effects, then said backgrounds damn well better look amazing (as in "blow my mind away" amazing) I'm talking scenery porn here.
Who am I kidding? They're gonna make everything brown and boring, aren't they? :immad:
It's an emo game so expect to see a lot of black
Quote from: Desensitized on August 17, 2011, 05:18:39 PM
30fps...
Remember last gen when people asked for 60fps with a slight graphical dip instead? If it has a great artstyle, who's going to notice or care how good it looks (Oh wait).
If the new Timesplitters turns out to be 30fps I'm going to be really disappointed as well.
Well, at the least the PC version will probably run at 60+ FPS...
Wait, there isn't one this time? Yet another step back for the series.
Quote from: gunswordfist on August 17, 2011, 05:26:49 PM
Quote from: Foggle on August 17, 2011, 04:34:14 PM
WHAT THE FUCK :whuh: :whuh: :whuh: :whuh:
My sentiments, exactly. This has been the week of the worse hack n slash news ever.
Devil May Cry is dead and Ninja Gaiden is on life support. A sad year this has been.
Honestly, I think NG3 sounds worse or maybe all of EK's complaints just make me think that way :D
Same evil. Different shades.
If NG3 is on life support than it also just got a death notice from the doctor this week, and has been given an estimated 6 months left to live. That is to say that when the game releases early next year (and so far its scheduled to be released on February 2012, unless it gets delayed for some reason) it'll officially kill off the entire franchise, at least in terms of the actual good gameplay quality that the previous games and the series as a whole up that point were known for.
I say this with more certainty now that I have seen enough of the wrong things that Hayashi is doing with this series. He already broke the 3 things that must NEVER be broken in an NG game in order for it to be considered a true NG game by fans, and those are:
1. Making enemies cowardly and wimpy as opposed to aggressive and deadly. The philosophy of the older games was that ninja enemies would willingly give up their lives to try and take down Haybusa as they considered it an honor to die in battle....yeah, that shit just got thrown out the window when Hayashi stepped into the picture.
2. Adding in scripted events- The reason every other NG game up until now has been loved is because there is always more than one way to progress through a level in terms of how you take down enemies or slip past them (this applies to the NES games as well). In the demo that we've been shown so far there is only one way to progress through it and there is no room or need for strategy against the enemies. The game also seems less difficult despite Hayashi saying that they will make it harder, but for right now I can't prove whether the difficulty is completely gone or not (if it were then Hayashi just raped the entire spirit and essence of NG, right there). Either way, though, just scripting the game so much is already breaking a fundamental rule of NG, so that's strike 2 for him.
3. SLOWING DOWN THE FUCKING ACTION! This is by far the biggest sin Hayashi has committed among the NG fanbase. EVERY NG game since the NES games has ALWAYS been about speed. Finding the fastest way to get through a level and trying to beat time records in speed runs, taking down a tough group of enemies or tough bosses in the 3D games with as much skill and efficiency as possible while also doing it quickly as hell. He just killed that. I mean....wow....I can't see how you can make an even bigger fuck-up than that in an NG game.
I'd also mention how pre-planned combos are dead but that's not actually considered as fundmemental of a rule-breaker as the other 3 (since the NES NG games weren't hack n' slash games anyways, and the new ones weren't about chaining combos anyways), but its still a big as hit to the quality of the games since they did feature a very good combo system until Hayashi just fucked it up.
Also, the bosses don't even have health-bars anymore....Seriously, I'm not even surprised by this point that negatives are piling onto this game one after another....And weapons upgrade automatically and you have no choice in the matter, and items and the store are gone, and Fiends/Demons and other non-human enemies are gone from this game, and weapon variety has been taken out completely in favor of only swords (oh, and you can't even switch between them according to Hayashi, BTW, as you are forced to use certain weapons during corresponding parts of the story), and....You know, I better stop before I get a heart attack at realizing that my favorite series ever is about to become complete and utter standard garbage. :imnothappy: :unimpressed:
Joystiq loses their minds (http://www.joystiq.com/2011/08/17/devil-may-cry-preview-from-black-to-white/)
QuoteI went into my demo of Devil May Cry with some trepidation. The series has long been one far off my radar, but Ninja Theory's colorful and even faster-paced interpretation of Capcom's long-running franchise went a long way in making me a convert. DMC is not expected to arrive until some time in 2012.
This is factually not possible.
So...how much do you think they were paid to say that?
At one point in the combat-heavy demo, Dante attempts to simply progress down a street before the entire town splits in half, leaving a gaping hole into the ether below. While the gameplay impact is low (you're forced to do some platforming to proceed), the dramatic effect is more than enough.
Oh, so the reason why they split the framerate in half was for almost God damn nothing? Good stuff. And lol @ someone in the comments pointing out how this game ripped off Bayonetta.
QuoteIn Ninja Gaiden II, decapitating enemies and slicing off their arms and legs didn't just feel satisfying -- it was an important tactic for slowing them down and buying yourself time. This feature has been removed for Ninja Gaiden 3. Why? Because we don't want to see that anymore, apparently.
"We don't think people want to see that anymore," a member of developer Team Ninja told us at Gamescom today. "They've already seen it."
We are told Ninja Gaiden III is all about killing human beings. Team Ninja wants you to experience the feeling of your sword entering a person's body, hitting bone, and slicing through the torso. It wants these actions to feel realistic to the player, but that might be at odds with the fact that, in real life, heads and arms do come off.
Ninja Gaiden III will be out early next year.
What in the blue fuck are they talking about?
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_lbyrwjBSwA1qe91wdo1_250.jpg&hash=8e33769b9a2aa3bd1f5d1e0aedc738b0e53e0d7b)
Yeah. This company's full of shit.
Umm... what?
So Ninja Gaiden 3 is basically nothing more than playable pornography for sociopaths?
What. The. Fuck.
Yes. They are so right. The one thing that pretty much all fans of NG2 for in terms of both evolving the gameplay to an even deeper and more tactical level as well as just looking bloody damn cool and visceral is what we didn't want to see return. I'd MUCH rather see a bunch of whiny British terrorists who all look exactly the same and make up 90% of the enemy count than a diverse array of ninjas and demons with creative designs and abilities, and I'd much rather have my combo system hampered by slow-down that totally kills combo potentials by getting your sword jammed in some dude's nasty crotch while you're slicing through him, rather than hacking down tough enemies and cutting off arms, legs, and heads left and right with deadly speed. I mean, Hayashi's version of the game clearly sounds MUCH more exciting.[/sarcasm]
Just as a fun fact for all of you guys who don't really play NG games out there: Did you know that nearly everything Hayashi is doing with NG3 so far is actually literally the polar opposite of what almost all fans want to see in the game? I'm not even joking. Just go to any NG community board, look for whatever threads they have about "lists of NG3 wants/NG3 wishlists" that were were released years ago (well before this game was even announced), and compare it to what Hayashi is giving NG fans with NG3 (taking into account that he said that he TOOK NG FANS OPINIONS INTO ACCOUNT).
Really, though, I don't think anyone can quite understand how sad I'm feeling about what this game is turning into. I now have to face the fact that I'll never get a true sequel to Ninja Gaiden Black, which is by far my favorite game of all time. :'(
Oh, look (http://thegamershub.net/2011/08/ninja-gaiden-3-story-to-take-8-10-hours/), I found MORE good news about what's happening to the 3rd game in one of my favorite series.[/sarcasm]
Just for the record:
Ninja Gaiden Black was about 20+ hours on average (first run though; as a speed run could be completed in less than 4 hours by very skilled players who knew their way around the game), had tons of replay value, and had a full mission mode to boot with 50 missions, all with their own separate difficulty settings and scoring and leaderboard uploads to boot.
Ninja Gaiden II was shorter but still pretty meaty, at about 12-13 hours for people who were already familiar with the gameplay from the first game and about 15+ hours worth of gameplay for everyone else who were newcomers to the series, on average.
Since Hayashi clearly knows that fans loved how NG games gave you more bang for your buck with their story-mode than most other hack n' slash games out there, he made sure to "please" us in that department to....with an average length of 8-10 hours (and knowing him he's probably making it out to be longer than it truly is or will be when its finally released).
Oh well, on the bright side I doubt that I would want to play more than 8 hours of a game that forces me to use only one weapon type and sacrfices its core combat system and the element of strategy and replay value for flashy scripted events and repeatedly tapping a single-button when your blade gets jammed into some bloke. Brilliant. :anger:
I can't believe that I'm actually saying this, but as much of an arrogant ass-hole as he is, I SINCERELY miss Itagaki at this point. I never dreamed that Team Ninja could go so horribly wrong without his leadership and guidance. They even managed to make his old DOA games look like masterpieces at this point (and I don't even care about that series).
I really hope that Devil's Third manages to have that same spirit of what I would expect from a fully fleshed out NG game, at the very least, in terms of having great content and lots of challenging but fun difficulty. At this point its the closest thing that I'll ever potentially get to a true NGB sequel (and considering that its a shooter, a completely different genre than hack n' slash, that's pretty damn sad).
I hate short 3D games
New gameplay footage of DmC.
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/tgs-11-devil-may/720943 (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/tgs-11-devil-may/720943)
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/tgs-11-devil-may/720944 (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/tgs-11-devil-may/720944)
*sigh* Just as I expected. Slowed, dumbed down combat and mechanics.
A few good things I'll say though. I do like the chain weapon, I thinkg it would lead to some awesome combos in a proper DMC game. And I think the enviroment in the second video looks pretty cool, and blows the ones from the other DMC games out of the water Other than that, meh.
I'm scared to watch. I did like the weapons I slow in the other videos though.
Man, I've put over 35 hours into Hard Corps Uprising, and that's an 8 stage game. It's all about content.
We'll see how Hayashi fares on that level.
Based on how scripted the NG3 demo looks and how he's even gone so far as to completely remove items and weapon upgrades and such from the game, I doubt that this game will hold up for more than a single play-through (especially since I believe that he is also doing away with the multiple harder difficulty modes up to Master Ninja mode, and is just going with a Normal and Hard difficulty setting).
The thing about the previous NG games was that aside from just being genuinely long relative to the length of other action games, they were also had high replay value because there was a lot of room for player choice. For example, even putting the harder difficulty settings aside, one could still find plenty of reason to replay the game on the same difficulty alone for multiple reasons, from reasons ranging from going for 100% completion (like finding all of the chests and hidden golden scarabs and such), to going for the highest ranking Karma scores, to trying to get the fastest speed-run time through the game, to going for a handicap run and purposely missing all health upgrades, not using any ninpo magic throughout the entire game, and limiting weapon upgrades to only the wooden sword (which is by far the weakest weapon in the game until you upgrade it to its max level, in which case it becomes the "potential" most powerful weapon in the game if the player is skilled enough to use it properly).
If NG3 at least had this going for it than I wouldn't mind its shorter length, but as it stands this game is seriously only looking like a onetime rental to me (since obviously I'm still going to play it if only because it bears the Ninja Gaiden title).
I'm not pleased that the extra time that could go into fleshing out the single-player more is instead going into making multiplayer modes that nobody ever asked for. At least I could understand the appeal of co-op to NG fans, since I have truthfully liked the idea of taking on hordes of tough enemies with a couple of buddies, but going for a deathmatch mode just seems stupid for a game of this sort (which is confirmed to be in the game). I mean, in that case why not just make a completely separate brawler type fighting game, rather than shoehorning something like that into this game?
So, the DMC HD collection comes out in just a couple of monhts, and I'll finally be able to try these games out properly for myself, from start to finish, rather than playing large chunks of each game like I used to on my friend's PS2.
I'm honestly thinking that I'll just pick that up to get my hack n' slash fix over Ninja Gaiden 3. I never really thought I'd be saying that, but basically the way NG3 is going, I'll probably just wait for it to get a huge price drop before bothering to pick it up. It doesn't even look like it has enough content to be worth half-price, let alone being priced at a full $60 as if it were a complete package. Honestly, an 8-hour single-player mode and a shitty multiplayer that's community will be dead in under a week is a new pitiful low that this series has sunk to.
At any rate, the DMC collection looks much more appealing to me since I've never played any of the games in full before, and at $40 I find it reasonably priced for me since I haven't exactly played the hell out of the DMC games on the PS2, so there is still plenty of content in those games which I have yet to experience. Of course, the way I see it, the price can be divided up into $20 for DMC1 and another $20 for DMC3, whereas DMC2 is more like Capcom's crappy bonus content just for the sake of completeness (in all honesty I'll probably give the game a fair shake, though, since its there and I hear that its pretty short and easy, anyways).
DMC 2 really isn't that bad of a game. It's easily the weakest *good* hack n slash I've ever played, but there's still fun to be had if you can look past its many flaws.
From what I've heard, it really only has one major flaw, which is just that its "meh" all-around. That's how my friend described it to me, anyways. He said that its just really generic and uninspired in every regard, but on a technical level there's nothing too bad about it. Basically as he put it, the level design is "meh," the enemies are "meh," the action and combat is "meh," and the story is "meh," which is technically true of all DMC games but in this case its more noticeable because Dante has been turned from a corny one-liner spewing character (that's actually really entertaining for it) into a plane generic boring action game character. So, basically I get the impression that its just one of those games that isn't bad for a casual play-through, but that is just completely derivative and forgettable on every level. That said, sometimes generic action games like that can be kind of fun if you just want to play casually and don't care about much else. I have to be in the right mood for that sort of thing, though.
These HD collections are crazy. If only I could get a HD Contra collection, Ratchet & Clank Collection, a Red Star HD port, and a few Capcom games, I could shelve my PS2.
Eh, depends on the game really. In some cases, buying the games used would be much cheaper than buying an HD Collection.
That being said, I'm hoping for a Kingdom Hearts Final Mix HD Collection so those games can finally see a release overseas.
Quote from: Foggle on February 13, 2012, 02:29:18 PM
DMC 2 really isn't that bad of a game. It's easily the weakest *good* hack n slash I've ever played, but there's still fun to be had if you can look past its many flaws.
Amen on that, brother. Whenever I get the collection, I'm going to try out DMC2 first.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on February 13, 2012, 02:48:59 PM
These HD collections are crazy. If only I could get a HD Contra collection, Ratchet & Clank Collection, a Red Star HD port, and a few Capcom games, I could shelve my PS2.
Order me up Castlevania, Power Stone, Metal Slug, Mega Man X, Streets Of Rage, 2D Zelda, Metroid, TMNT, Secret Of Mana and Earthworm Jim HD Collections and I'll be happy.
A Power Stone HD collection would be great. There is that PSP collection, but to me PS games aren't really meant to be played on handheld consoles, as I can't imagine playing it on such a small screen since the characters would end up looking like specs on a screen like that.
As for other HD collections which I would love, I can think of at least a few:
Jet Set Radio HD Collection
Resident Evil HD Collection (consisting of RE 0, 1, 2, and 3)
Oddworld HD Collection (both the PS1 and XBOX games)
Otogi HD Collection
KOTOR HD Collection
Soul Reaver HD Collection
TimeSplitters HD Collection
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on February 13, 2012, 09:01:35 PM
A Power Stone HD collection would be great. There is that PSP collection, but to me PS games aren't really meant to be played on handheld consoles, as I can't imagine playing it on such a small screen since the characters would end up looking like specs on a screen like that.
As for other HD collections which I would love, I can think of at least a few:
Jet Set Radio HD Collection
Resident Evil HD Collection (consisting of RE 0, 1, 2, and 3)
Oddworld HD Collection (both the PS1 and XBOX games)
Otogi HD Collection
KOTOR HD Collection
Soul Reaver HD Collection
TimeSplitters HD Collection
That's not the problem with the PSP games. The problem is the ONE PLAYER ONLY. I remember hearing that on I believe some G4 review. Ridonkulous.
TimeSplitters reminds me that I can't play 2 on my 360. Maybe I should try to get the Xbox my cousin is having me hold for him to work. Have you played 3? Is so, how good is it?
Also, I'd add REmake to that Resident Evil collection since you put 0 and all in it. And Code Veronica too since I hear it's supposed to be the real RE3.
I purposely didn't list Code Veronica and RE4 since both of those have already been portend to the HD consoles, even though neither of them have had the care put into them that most true HD ports get (they still have a lot of scenes that look like they were left in SD, but just rendered to fit on an HD TV screen, which makes them end up looking horrible due to the poor transition).
I have the Power Stone Collection and it's just as EK says. It's way too hard to play most of the time because of how small the screen is. Power Stone was made for the big screen.
IMO, Timesplitters 3 is the best one, multiplayer is a toss up between it and 2, but single player is by far better in 3. But it also doesn't work on the 360. The only current gen system that can play TS2 and 3 is the Wii of all things... or if you have one of those rare BC PS3s.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on February 13, 2012, 09:32:59 PM
I have the Power Stone Collection and it's just as EK says. It's way too hard to play most of the time because of how small the screen is. Power Stone was made for the big screen.
IMO, Timesplitters 3 is the best one, multiplayer is a toss up between it and 2, but single player is by far better in 3. But it also doesn't work on the 360. The only current gen system that can play TS2 and 3 is the Wii of all things... or if you have one of those rare BC PS3s.
Dammit! *runs to hook up Xbox*
Back on topic, is there any hack n slash games to look forward to? The genre is getting much less love this gen.
Metal Gear Rising and...that's about it. There's been talks of a Bayonetta 2, but I'm not sure if it's even in development yet.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on February 13, 2012, 09:01:35 PM
Also, I'd add REmake to that Resident Evil collection since you put 0 and all in it. And Code Veronica too since I hear it's supposed to be the real RE3.
Unfortunately, I can pretty much guarantee that REmake will never be ported to HD consoles since the game is locked at 4:3 resolution and tons of bitches will cry about that. The weird thing is that even the PS1 games, Code Veronica, and 0 (which is from the same console as the remake) scale up to 16:9 perfectly.
Anyway, fuck porting RE 2 and 3, we need straight-up remakes for them a la the first game. Most of the art assets are basically done due to the creation of the Chronicles games and Operation Raccoon City, so I don't see why they'd have any reason not to remake these classics.
Quote from: Rynnec on February 13, 2012, 10:16:17 PM
Metal Gear Rising and...that's about it. There's been talks of a Bayonetta 2, but I'm not sure if it's even in development yet.
That reminds me, I did say that MGR is the only hack n slash I'm looking forward to and of course I'd want to play Bayonetta 2.
I prefer hack n slashes to have enemies/bosses that are close to human size and have a weapon. Basically, if you are taller than a ceiling, you are too big.
Quote from: gunswordfist on April 26, 2012, 09:01:34 PM
I prefer hack n slashes to have enemies/bosses that are close to human size and have a weapon. Basically, if you are taller than a ceiling, you are too big.
YES. Best boss fights of all time:
Nelo Angelo
Vergil
Doku
Genshin
Jeanne
Henry
Azel (beat 'em up, not hack 'n slash, but still)
FACT.
Same here. While I don't genreally mind bigger bosses, there's just something about fighting someone who's roughly the same size as you as the final boss. For me, the final boss with Vergil in DMC3 is much more epic than any of those "epic" giant final bosses.
Quote from: Rynnec on April 26, 2012, 09:06:32 PM
For me, the final boss with Vergil in DMC3 is much more epic than any of those "epic" giant final bosses.
The final showdowns with Vergil in DMC 3 and Azel in God Hand are the greatest moments in gaming period.
Quote from: Foggle on April 26, 2012, 09:02:53 PM
Quote from: gunswordfist on April 26, 2012, 09:01:34 PM
I prefer hack n slashes to have enemies/bosses that are close to human size and have a weapon. Basically, if you are taller than a ceiling, you are too big.
YES. Best boss fights of all time:
Nelo Angelo
Vergil
Doku
Genshin
Jeanne
Henry
Azel (beat 'em up, not hack 'n slash, but still)
FACT.
I only know the first 5. The last boss fight with Jeanne is pretty crazy.
Quote from: Rynnec on April 26, 2012, 09:06:32 PM
Same here. While I don't genreally mind bigger bosses, there's just something about fighting someone who's roughly the same size as you as the final boss. For me, the final boss with Vergil in DMC3 is much more epic than any of those "epic" giant final bosses.
Amen. I like my boss fights without the annoying camera angle and having to wait to dodge the giant boss' slow attack.
Henry is the final boss of No More Heroes and Azel is the evil counterpart to the player character in God Hand.
Awww, I had a feeling Henry was a No More Heroes boss.
Quote from: Foggle on April 26, 2012, 09:02:53 PM
Quote from: gunswordfist on April 26, 2012, 09:01:34 PM
I prefer hack n slashes to have enemies/bosses that are close to human size and have a weapon. Basically, if you are taller than a ceiling, you are too big.
YES. Best boss fights of all time:
Nelo Angelo
Vergil
Doku
Genshin
Jeanne
Henry
Azel (beat 'em up, not hack 'n slash, but still)
FACT.
This list lacks Doppleganger Ryu (any form)....though I guess you could say that he's more of a mini-boss than an actual boss.
I also enjoyed the Credo and Dante fights from DMC4.
I agree that human-sized enemies that force you to be quick and agile make for the best kind of boss fights in hack n' slash and beat-em-up games. The common gamer will just go with the bigger is better mentality and be wowed by the huge scale of God of War's bosses, and while they may be a marvel to look at, they end up being pretty shallow fights most of the time. Fighting a human sized enemy that is just as quick and agile as you makes for some of the fastest and most satisfying gameplay around.
Also, to elaborate on your choice of Genshin, this is actually one of the few times I'll say that I think Ninja Gaiden SIGMA 2 made a genuine improvement over NG2, since in Sigma 2 you can actually launch Genshin which wasn't possible in NG2 at all. I think that he should be subject to all of the same types of attacks that other human sized enemies in the game are, and I was disappointed how you could only use limited attacks on him in NG2, whereas I feel like the potential of that boss fight was fully realized in Sigma 2, though it still doesn't make up for all of the other things that version of the game got wrong.
I wanted to limit my list to one boss per game. ;) Totally forgot to include something from DMC 4, though. Go ahead and pretend Dante is on there!
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 26, 2012, 09:43:17 PM
Quote from: Foggle on April 26, 2012, 09:02:53 PM
Quote from: gunswordfist on April 26, 2012, 09:01:34 PM
I prefer hack n slashes to have enemies/bosses that are close to human size and have a weapon. Basically, if you are taller than a ceiling, you are too big.
YES. Best boss fights of all time:
Nelo Angelo
Vergil
Doku
Genshin
Jeanne
Henry
Azel (beat 'em up, not hack 'n slash, but still)
FACT.
This list lacks Doppleganger Ryu (any form)....though I guess you could say that he's more of a mini-boss than an actual boss.
I also enjoyed the Credo and Dante fights from DMC4.
I agree that human-sized enemies that force you to be quick and agile make for the best kind of boss fights in hack n' slash and beat-em-up games. The common gamer will just go with the bigger is better mentality and be wowed by the huge scale of God of War's bosses, and while they may be a marvel to look at, they end up being pretty shallow fights most of the time. Fighting a human sized enemy that is just as quick and agile as you makes for some of the fastest and most satisfying gameplay around.
Also, to elaborate on your choice of Genshin, this is actually one of the few times I'll say that I think Ninja Gaiden SIGMA 2 made a genuine improvement over NG2, since in Sigma 2 you can actually launch Genshin which wasn't possible in NG2 at all. I think that he should be subject to all of the same types of attacks that other human sized enemies in the game are, and I was disappointed how you could only use limited attacks on him in NG2, whereas I feel like the potential of that boss fight was fully realized in Sigma 2, though it still doesn't make up for all of the other things that version of the game got wrong.
Yeah, Credo is fun as hell to fight. Also, that's the part where my baby brother messed up my copy of the game. :wth: Funny enough, Echidna while playing as Nero is my favorite boss in DMC4. It's fun using the Devil Bringer on her to fly around.
I found an interesting article (http://www.edge-online.com/opinion/why-we-need-bayonetta-2) discussing why the cancellation of Bayonetta 2 (if that rumor turns out to be true) could be a very bad thing for the hack n' slash genre, and the action game genre in general.
Of course, I entirely disagree with his opinion on NG2, since that game felt rushed, not phoned-in, and there's a BIG difference between the two. I mean, its clear that this guy didn't play the game on anything above Acolyte difficulty to see that there are elements to it that even Bayonetta, and even Ninja Gaiden Black for that matter, can't compare to, even those are better games on the whole.
I do agree that DMC4's level design felt really lazy, but I don't think the guys gives it enough credit for what it does get right and overall it just feels like the listed NG2 and DMC4 there to take a stab at modern Japanese games (as is the popular trend these days), even though both of those were still really good games when not compared to their better predecessors (or to Bayonetta, of course).
I do agree with the writer that this genre was at its peak last-gen, and so far Bayonetta is the only high-quality and polished product that we've seen of the genre in this generation, so the fact that it may be going under is indeed a huge blow to the genre, especially since DMC is headed in an entirely different direction than what most fans probably want from the series (unless we do get a DMC5 and this "reboot" is just an alternate take on the series, rather than a full-on replacement), but I do at least think that MGSR will be a good game, so there's that to look forward to this year.
Still, Bayonetta was honestly the only game in this genre from this gen that I felt was comparable to the best action games of last-gen, and its a shame to hear that it may not be getting a sequel.
I feel stupid about not knowing/thinking of him being able to fight him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMGKKJzLpeQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMGKKJzLpeQ)
Or this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z1xY9BnzuM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z1xY9BnzuM)
Looks like God of War is getting a much needed gameplay refinement. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1xh90drTyw&feature=my_watch_later_videos&list=WLDA921313BF87E8F5)
I still won't put this on my "must have" list, but I may give it a rental if it turns out to be servicable enough. They even made Kratos slightly less of an asshole.
DmC will have Vergil playable as DLC complete with his own story. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sB7iaWc8G1E)
Have to admit, Vergil's gameplay looks pretty decent and stylish. It's a shame you have to pay for this DLC, 'cause I really don't want to give this game my money.
I notice that Vergil's character design in this game at least bears some noticeable resemblance to his character design from the traditional DMC games (definitely more so than Dante's look in this game). That said I can't help but feel that his gameplay here looks markedly slower than his combat in DMC3, but I haven't actually played as Vergil in DMC3 so maybe I'm just blowing out smoke, here. Either way, I'm a sucker for keeping fast and intense combat speed, and this new DmC game just looks, for lack of a better word, too "slow" for my tastes. I'm sure it has a more than competent combat system with more intricacies and nuances than the average action game (but nowhere close to the traditional DMC games), but the overall slowness of the game will certainly hamper that for me, unless these gameplay previews purposely slow down the action for the more casual crowd who want gameplay that their eyes can actually follow. :D
Yeah, Vergil's design may not have the best look, but at least it holds up as its own design, unlike DINO and his lazy-ass butt-ugly design.
QuoteI'm a sucker for keeping fast and intense combat speed, and this new DmC game just looks, for lack of a better word, too "slow" for my tastes. I'm sure it has a more than competent combat system with more intricacies and nuances than the average action game (but nowhere close to the traditional DMC games), but the overall slowness of the game will certainly hamper that for me, unless these gameplay previews purposely slow down the action for the more casual crowd who want gameplay that their eyes can actually follow :D.
That'd be hilarious if so, but I doubt it since the console versions are clocked at 30 fps. The PC versions will be able to go at 60 fps though, so there's that.
Quote from: Rynnec on November 12, 2012, 10:25:33 PM
The PC versions will be able to go at 60 fps though, so there's that.
Ah, so it will be worth buying during a Steam sale, then. :happytime:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnAQntvJYP8&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnAQntvJYP8&feature=plcp)
A short, if hilarious retrospective of the DMC series from a relative newbie. He left out a detail or two (most glaringly the Special Edition of 3), but otherwise he nails why I love DMC perfectly.
Its a good video, and mostly nails down what the good DMC games got right. I have to admit that I've always had a bit of a distaste for the opinions of the guy who makes these videos, though. Sometimes his opinions are bizarre and outrageous when he hates on games way more than they deserve. Just look at his Sonic Generations review. As someone who has played that game extensively, I can say that most of his criticisms on it are either way too overblown or completely non-existent, so I don't know what game he was playing when he reviewed it. Either way, though, this particular video was good, and it reminds me that I really need to get the HD collection and play the classic DMC games in full.
TheGamingBrit was deliberately exaggerating the games flaws for humour effect. That being said, those are indeed his real thoughts on the Sonic series. He's probably the only member of Hellfirecomms that doesn't like Sonic.
Also, the demo of DmC is coming out on the 20th. TBH, the game is looking okay-ish on the gameplay side of things, not as good as a DMC game should be, and why too easy, but still servicable (looks better than GoW's combat at least). It's the story that's really dragging the game down. These are the most groan-worthy and unintentionally hilarious lines I've ever heard in a video game, all delivered with the most melodramatic and cheesy acting. This would be fine if Ninja Theory wasn't taking this games story so seriously. Unfortunately they are, and they're even taking out features from past DMC games to suit the story.
Hey, here's the latest DmC rumor. Possible spoilers be below, but go ahead and read them anyway because... you'll see.
Quotehad the misfortune of play-testing this game here.
I love Terminator 2 as much as the next guy, but, quite literally, this game's protagonist is just an adult version of babby John Conner, without any of the redeeming qualities. That's the best description I have of the character.
Also, there's no character arc, nothing is learned, there are no morals to the story, Mundus or whatever the fuck, has children and Donte kills their mother and make them watch, then slaughter them, then slowly murder Mundus and feeds him his children.
And they don't even touch upon how fucked up it is.
They treat it like killing a family and feeding the father them is justice, or morally justifiable.
It is so goddamn edgy, you don't even fucking comprehend the word until you play this "game."
The ending is almost like that episode of South Park where Cartman feeds that kid his parents,s only it's not played for laughs, it's actually serious.
If this rumour turns out to be true and people still defend Nu-Dante after this... :srs:
And here's another part of the rumored ending:
QuoteThe game starts out as a prequel, but turns into an alternate universe Star Trek style. Basically, half-angel,hal-demon people have been trying to save the universe by destroying different timelines on their time machine that runs on the tears of children. Classic Dante shows up at the very end, implying that DMC5 will be Dante & Donte teaming up trying to save time and space.
FUCK THAT!
I'd rather a meeting between Dante and Donte go like this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIcExdpsEcQ)
Yesterday, I thought I downloaded the demo to DmC but it ended up being a trailer since I don't have Gold and can't get the demo. So I watched the trailer and was actually surprised that Vergil didn't look as bad as I thought he would. I thought he would look all prissy and have a monocle (Hmm, Sparda had a monocle, right? That explains that part of my mental image). He still looks like an average teen drama type of character but at least he doesn't look like emo trash. Also his voice didn't grate my ears at all.
Just played the DmC demo. Enjoyed it a lot, actually. The writing was as bad as I expected, but the gameplay was quite fun. Probably about on par with 4. Definitely going to pick up the PC version when it comes out, now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yS8Usioo9rI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yS8Usioo9rI)
This intro is the very definition of "trying to hard". :lol:
1st, hack n slash games are probably my favorite type of games due to them being able to make me feel good after a stressful day at work.
Before I get into the meat of everything, I gotta talk about that gaming brit. I enjoyed that DMC clip, and his opinion about the series is completely understandable. I may check out more of his videos.
Devil May Cry 1-4
Having said that, DMC is no doubt my favorite series, with 3 being my favorite and 4 following closely behind. From a combat perspective, it's hard for me to go back to playing DMC1 after coming off of 3 and 4. Do I appreciate DMC1, yes, but do I care about it revolutionizing the genre? Heh, you want me to answer that bluntly or nicely?
DMC4, I understand where people are coming from about their complaints with the game, but for me, I enjoyed it. Almost moreso than DMC3. The only reason I don't have it topping 3 is because there's no Vergil. I've seen quite a few complaints about Nero, and while he's no Dante or Vergil I like his character. The latest complaint I've seen of Nero is him having a short supply of weapons. Say he had 3-5 weapons, then people would've been complaining that he's a Dante ripoff. I think Nero is pretty much in a no win situation regardless of how you slice it. Like Raiden (MGS2), Nero suffers from that inevitable consequence of replacing an iconic character. Anyway, the way I see it, Dante the showoff has multiple weapons to finish off folks in style with multiple hits and Nero being the powerhouse, hence the devilbringer. You give Nero anymore weapons than he already has, I can only imagine the complaints of the game feeling too easy. Anyway, because of Nero's moveset and with me being able to easily entertain myself in DMC4 I don't have an issue with Nero. As far as the backtracking goes... 2 things you will never see me complain about in games are repetitiveness and backtracking, but that's just me. I'd say the only way I'd have an issue with backtracking is if I'm just running into the same area full of nothing, if I'm fighting, whatever. Don't get me wrong though, I understand that it comes off as laziness, and I'm not going to even try disputing that.
And then there's DmC. I hate what I'm seeing but I'm not going to jump the gun yet. I won't buy it, but I'll watch walkthrough's of it.
Ninja Gaiden 1-2 and God of War 1-2 (I've yet to play 3)
Truth be told Ninja Gaiden and God of War don't do anything wrong, or rather, their faults do hinder anything, it's just DMC appeals to me more. That's all. Ninja Gaiden's combat is unrivaled. God of War's usage of the camera should be used more. I also like QTE's, but only in games that actually started off using them. NG3 (I think I remember seeing QTE's being introduced) comes off as biting off of GoW and that is what I don't like. And then on top of that I love me some graphics. I love cutscenes, especially if it's chucked full of action (DMC is unrivaled, but GoW takes it for graphics). So yeah, they both bring something to the table that I like.
Darksiders 2
The newest game I've been checking out lately, and while it don't bring anything new to the table it does feels like a breath of fresh air, and I can't explain why. It just feels good.
Warriors Orochi 3
Mindless fun. Nuff said.
Just a little taste of what hack n slashers I play and prefer.
I like Nero too. I just think his gameplay needs to be refined a little. Like making some of his DT moves part of his base moveset or something along those lines.
Quote from: Grave
And then there's DmC. I hate what I'm seeing but I'm not going to jump the gun yet. I won't buy it, but I'll watch walkthrough's of it.
Have you tried out the demo yet? It should give you a taste of what to expect gameplay wise. From what I've played, it's OK, but nothing near the standards of DMC 3/4, or even 1. I will say it's more fun than Ninja Gaiden 3/Razor's Edge, Heavenly Sword, and maybe God of War. The story and dialogue are pretty god-awful though.
Quote
Ninja Gaiden 1-2 and God of War 1-2 (I've yet to play 3)
Truth be told Ninja Gaiden and God of War don't do anything wrong, or rather, their faults do hinder anything, it's just DMC appeals to me more. That's all. Ninja Gaiden's combat is unrivaled. God of War's usage of the camera should be used more. I also like QTE's, but only in games that actually started off using them. NG3 (I think I remember seeing QTE's being introduced) comes off as biting off of GoW and that is what I don't like. And then on top of that I love me some graphics. I love cutscenes, especially if it's chucked full of action (DMC is unrivaled, but GoW takes it for graphics). So yeah, they both bring something to the table that I like.
I will say that the gorn in GoW does make for some good catharsis (though in terms of actual Catharsis factor/blowing off steam, I'd say No More Heroes is superior in that regard). QTE's I'm kinda on the fence on.
QuoteDarksiders 2
The newest game I've been checking out lately, and while it don't bring anything new to the table it does feels like a breath of fresh air, and I can't explain why. It just feels good.
I'm honestly enjoying Darksiders II more than I have the recent Zelda entries. Of course, the combat is pretty good too, and some of the combos I've seen players do are pretty sick.
Nero's base gameplay mechanics are fine. My issue with him lies in his limited range of weapons. I think that he deserved 2 alternate weapons and guns just like Dante had. I can't help but get tired of using just Red Queen and Blue Rose while playing as him. I love Dante's ability to switch between weapons on the fly, which to me makes his combat feel far more robust and interesting. I don't think it'd be too much to ask that Nero follow suit with that as well. Even if you were to only give him just 1 alternate weapon and gun (to balance out the fact that he also has the Devil Bringer on his side), it'd be better than nothing, IMO.
Also, now that I've completed DMC3 one time through, I can honestly say that its easily my favorite DMC game. I do still feel that Dante's gameplay from DMC4 is the best gameplay that he has ever had, but unfortunately you're only restricted to a limited portion of the game when playing as him. If we got a proper DMC5 and it featured the ability to play through all levels as either Dante or Nero after a single story playthrough (and maybe throw Vergil in there as well, for good measure), and it had Dante's DMC4 gameplay mechanics while adding in the improvements that I suggested for Nero, then it could very well turn out to be the best DMC game ever, and consequently one of the greatest action games of all time. Too bad it seems as though Capcom has no intention of going in that direction.
Quote from: RynnecHave you tried out the demo yet? It should give you a taste of what to expect gameplay wise. From what I've played, it's OK, but nothing near the standards of DMC 3/4, or even 1. I will say it's more fun than Ninja Gaiden 3/Razor's Edge, Heavenly Sword, and maybe God of War. The story and dialogue are pretty god-awful though.
Nah, but I've seen quite a bit of gameplay footage. I'm having mixed feelings at the moment. The combat looks fine, but I don't like the atmosphere much. I'm not one to really complain about music, but what is that stuff? Not saying the music in DMC3/4 is good either (I'm not a fan of metal). And then there's the stages. My goodness, one stage had so much neon colors to the point where I had to look away from the screen.
QuoteI will say that the gorn in GoW does make for some good catharsis (though in terms of actual Catharsis factor/blowing off steam, I'd say No More Heroes is superior in that regard). QTE's I'm kinda on the fence on.
Shenmue's usage of QTE's caused me to like them so much, especially since I play Super Street Fighter 4 a lot, and they're good for testing reactions. I was never a fan of greek mythology, but I do like how it's presented in GoW. I can do away without the platforming in GoW though.
QuoteI'm honestly enjoying Darksiders II more than I have the recent Zelda entries. Of course, the combat is pretty good too, and some of the combos I've seen players do are pretty sick.
Agreed, although, I stopped playing Zelda after Majora's Mask. I tried playing Twilight Princess, and it was during that game that I realized I didn't care for the series anymore. The continuous usage of OoT's style of gameplay can only get you so far with me especially since I like combo's.
Well, go ahead and call me old-fashioned, because Ocarina of Time is still my 2nd favorite game ever. Ninja Gaiden Black is my favorite. Though, DMC3 will inevitably find its way into my top 10, if not my top 5, at this point. Its nice to actually finally own the game rather than when I could only play it in limited chunks whenever I went to my friend's house or whenever he had brought his PS2 over. At any rate, I do love deep and intuitive combat in my 3D action games, however, I also love Zelda's heavy emphasis on puzzle solving and adventure elements. Truth be told, I love that just as much as any deep combat system. My ideal video game would be something that had combat as good as Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry mixed in with adventure and puzzle-solving as good as Ocarina of Time and other great Zelda games. That would make for the ultimate gaming experience, to me.
Sounds like you'd enjoy Darksiders II then. The combat isn't quite as deep as DMC3 or Ninja Gaiden's, but it's definitely up there, and the combo potential is definitely there. :)
I've actually been interested in trying out Darksiders II for a while. I couldn't get into the first game because the combat was too shallow and the adventure elements felt uninspired, but I've seen lots of gameplay videos of Darksiders II and it looks to be a vast improvement over the first game on both ends of the spectrum. If it turns out to be that way, it could easily be one of the better action games that I could play this generation.
I would kill for a DMC game with little to no bactracking. Hmmmm, I need to appreciate Bayonetta more for that. Anyway, less tiny space battles would be appreciated too. It sucks to have to fight a charging and/or teleporting demon in the middle of a small ass room.
Quote from: gunswordfist on January 09, 2013, 07:37:28 PM
It sucks to have to fight a charging and/or teleporting demon in the middle of a small ass room.
Blitz. :srs:
Quote from: Rynnec on January 09, 2013, 07:43:04 PM
Quote from: gunswordfist on January 09, 2013, 07:37:28 PM
It sucks to have to fight a charging and/or teleporting demon in the middle of a small ass room.
Blitz. :srs:
Exactamoodo. They decided to confuse hard with cheap.
Blitz isn't cheap. There are plenty of ways to kill that enemy without taking any damage at all. Don't you guys ever watch gameplay videos from the DMC pros? Even I was able to take out that enemy on DMD mode without losing any health once I found out at least one strategy that worked on it.
For a guy who has no time to enjoy his life, you sure do watch a fuckton of DMC and Halo videos.
How does going on to Youtube and watching 5-minute videos in your spare time when you need help on a certain section of a game constitute as watching a fuck-ton of videos? Perhaps it just too much for you to handle to look up a video when you want a strategy to fight a tough enemy. At least I'll look up something before up and calling a part of the game cheap just because I'm not good enough to deal with it. :>
Only n00bs do that.
Quote from: gunswordfist on January 10, 2013, 06:11:25 PM
Only n00bs do that.
Only noobs will blindly claim that something that's too tough for them is cheap difficulty without trying to find out if there's a proper way to tackle those tough situations. That would be you.
Players who legitimately want to get better at games will seek out advice from more experienced players or in this case watch video tutorials demonstrating more advanced methods to tackle tough enemies in a way that evens out the playing field.
The bottom line is that Blitz is not a cheap enemy as it can be handled in multiple ways without taking any damage yourself. The fact that you jumped to the conclusion that its cheap shows your own ignorance and that you just give up way too easily.
You gave me 3 paragraphs for blatant, obvious trolling? :D
So, with the release of the much anticipated hack n' slash game Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance just right around the corner, I figured that now would be a good time bring up the genre in general and ask you all: Just what is it about hack n' slash games that really appeals to you?
As for me, I love how they are essentially the culmination of a fighting game meeting an adventure game. The best games in the genre have deep fighting mechanics that mostly revolves around melee combat, but whereas a pure fighting game is just 2 guys beating the crap out of each other in 1-on-1 competition within a narrow environment, a hack n' slash game combines fighting mechanics with a sense of progression as you explore environments and move from area to area, really making you feel like you are a complete bad-ass going on an epic adventure.
Now, of course my favorite hack n' slash games are the ones that have a superb combat system above anything else. I specifically love games like Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, and Bayonetta for offering up really deep combat systems that have extremely advanced tactics that are hard to learn. The level of potential increase in skill in these games is so phenomenal that you really wouldn't believe how much more skilled you could get at each of them no matter how much you practiced with these games. In this regard, I would NEVER be even close to as good as the pros and experts at any of these games....and honestly, I love that about them. I don't necessarily want to be the best in terms of mastering them, but I just love the sense of feeling that I always have room to improve at these games. It keeps me coming back for more, and when they have really interesting enemy design combined in with their superb combat systems, and really well-developed harder difficulty modes, it gives these games a tremendous amount of replay value. With a game like Ninja Gaiden Black, and even its sequel NG2, I immediately re-started these games on their harder difficulty modes upon completing their default difficulties, and I kept moving up until I could conquer both of them on Master Ninja mode. It was extremely challenging but insanely rewarding in how good it felt each time I made myself get better in order to make it through each new challenge that these games threw my way.
With DMC3, I am currently playing it on Very Hard, and I like that the game is constantly forcing me to adapt to new strategies as I realize that I have a much smaller margin of error that I'm allowed to work with as I tackle this game's stricter challenges. The fact that I also have another playable character, in the form of Vergil, waiting for me to replay the entire game with once I'm done with my Dante play-through only adds to high level value that a game like this has. For whatever reason, no other genre of gaming compels me to get that much better at them than hack n' slash games do. Of course, I'm really only referring to the select few hack n' slash games that are at the top of their genre. There are of course a ton of mediocre ones that don't have nearly as much value to them, but these few games alone that I love so much are really all that I need to sustain my interest in the genre. I'm really hoping that the up coming MGRR truly delivers in this regard. I've been dying for a new hack n' slash game to really sustain my interest after the hugely disappointing NG3 from last year. I'm sure that games like DmC and Darksiders 2 are plenty of fun in their own right, but I only trust developers such as Platinum in this day and age to truly deliver on what I really want from the genre, given their experience in making these kinds of games.
Quote from: Ensatsu-kenSo, with the release of the much anticipated hack n' slash game Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance just right around the corner, I figured that now would be a good time bring up the genre in general and ask you all: Just what is it about hack n' slash games that really appeals to you?
I've always been a fan of action, especially over-the-top or well-choreographied action, be it in animation, comics, movies, etc. unfortunately very few videogames provided satisfying enough combat systems to satisfy my appetite for action. Fighting games came close, but those were mostly only really satisfying if you were playing against a human opponent, and even then you had to be at least around the same skill level to really get that "thrill" I was looking for (at least for me). Games like Kingdom Hearts II had very flashy combat and some challenging bosses, but the combat itself, while it quite a few good concepts, wasn't very deep. It wasn't until I played DMC3 a few years ago that I found
exactly the kind of action and combat I wanted from an action game. I loved how smooth and speedy the combat was, I loved how it had the right mix of style, flashiness, and depth, and I loved how rewarding it felt when I slowly got better at the combat. Naturally I wanted more of it, so eventually I got DMC4, tried out a few demo's of whatever hack'n slash I could find (including Ninja Gaiden Sigma, which I also eventually bought), looked up gameplay videos of (and eventually playing) Bayonetta, watched a bunch of combo video's from pro players, it was like I finally found the genre I was "born" to play.
To me, hack'n slash games like DMC, Bayonetta and Metal Gear Rising are the games that are the most sucessful of making you feel "badass". Most games these days make that their main objective, but most of them try to go about that by making it the combat so casual that they become shallow, having player characters with designs that are bland as hell and personalities and backstories that are more "relateable (read: horribly bland, boring, and borderline irritating). This is the mistake Ninja Theory made with DmC, the mistake Team Ninja made with NG3, and the mistake the developers of the new Tomb Raider are making. I just wish we had more DMC-style hack'n slashes out there.
Quote from: Ensatsu-KenAs for me, I love how they are essentially the culmination of a fighting game meeting an adventure game.
I had to catch myself because I was getting ready to disagree with you on that mainly because of DMC, and because Capcom actually managed to transfer most of Dante's (and Vergil's) moveset to MvC3, I cannot disagree, but I would say Ninja Gaiden and Shenmue (especially Shenmue) felt closer to a fighting game than the rest of the games in the genre. Anyway, I agree with you on that.
As for your question. Mainly the overall fun-factor I get outta these games. I don't need deep mechanics (hell, I'm enjoying the Musou games for crying out loud, and it's also why I can enjoy the God of War series moreso than other people), but they do add to the overall experience once you get the hang of said game. I don't need a story, but if the story is presented in a way that I can become interested in it, by all means. The one thing I'd say I need in my games is a likable or decent character to play as. This is why I can't get into Bayonetta (and Kingdom Hearts). Her character just felt so "blah". And finally, there's the need to come home after a stressful day at work and just cut folks up or bash their faces in to release some of that aggression.
I dare say Darksiders 2 just might top out as my favorite over everything else since it has everything that I like. The combat feels good and visceral at the same time, giving it that God of War feeling, making it feel more satisfying. A very likable character who is indeed a badass. And then the quest itself, while I haven't played much of the game yet, feels like I won't get bored of it. Graphics are great. Artwork is great. Will definitely get back to the game once I take a break from SSF4 (if I take a break from it)
As I've said before, I just love the whole "bad-ass" on an adventure concept of the hack n' slash genre. I mean, in reality, only very few games in the genre get it right to stand out, but those few games really make it one of my favorite genres in all of gaming.
To me, there are 2 ways that a hack n' slash game can excel at this sort of gameplay. The first and most obvious is the DMC approach, which its unofficial spiritual successor, Bayonetta, also embodies in its core concept. In this style of gameplay, the emphasis is put on giving your character a ton of bad-ass abilities at their disposal, however you can only really experience those bad-ass moves through practice. You have to build up your skill, but once you know the finer points of the combat in these games, then you're on fire with how awesome you feel at linking together flashy and complex combos. These games are also a ton of fun to replay on higher difficulties, but the main thing I will remember them for is just how fun it is to really experiment with the vast about of combat options in this game once you truly understand how their mechanics work.
The other type of way to succeed at making you feel like a true bad-ass in a hack n' slash game is the way Ninja Gaiden does it, which is my personal favorite approach, as well. Whereas DMC and Bayonetta put more emphasis on combos, Ninja Gaiden emphasizes all aspects of combat in general. That is to say, defense and acrobats has just as much weight as a good offense. The game does support some sick combos and a superb combat system, but "combat" is NG isn't merely just pulling off moves. It is a blend of everything, including dodging, blocking, countering, and attacking. The part where you feel bad-ass is when you can successfully perform all of these elements in regular battle, which also takes a lot of skill to understand but feels amazing when you can pull it all off. You feel bad-ass not because you took down your enemies with ease and toyed with them in the process, but because you fought extremely tough enemies and prevailed with pure skill on every level, which in many ways is what I consider the epitomy of being bad-ass. That said, I just love how combat in NG is based on mixture of skill, strategy, and efficiency. It can also be really flashy, and you'd be surprised at how sick some of the combos are in the 2nd game in regard to what people can pull off (seriously, you can perform and Underworld Drop on an enemy from well over a hundred feet up on top of a clock tower....that's fucking amazing), but I'll always admire the first 2 games for their extremely fun and challenging enemy AI, and superbly fluid martial arts-like acrobats.
Overall, I consider Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, and Ninja Gaiden to be the kings (and queen, I suppose) of the genre. I wish more games would follow in the foot-steps of either of these series. Sadly, it seems that no other developers that make action games in this vein seem to get just why these titles are so great. From what I've seen, a lot of the base gameplay in most of these other games seems to closer resemble Ninja Gaiden, though in that vein the developers are really trying to emulate God of War instead, which just happens to have a system that feels more derived from NG than DMC (though puts more emphasis on DMC-like combos, ironically). By that, I mean that it goes for the light and heavy attack system that is used in NG games. However, none of these games have the same sort of focus as NG has in terms of designing really interesting enemy AI or extremely fluid feeling movements. Meanwhile, they pale in comparison to both DMC and Bayonetta as well, since most of them can't even manage to come close to the level of nuance and precision that those titles have to their combat mechanics, and a lot of those games don't utilize lock-on which I feel is pretty necessary for a combo heavy game, which requires that level of precision to be played on a deeper level (NG isn't really centered around combos, which is why it works just fine without the lock-on system for the type of game that it is).
Then again, maybe I'm just a biased prick, but I haven't found any games that I like nearly as much as what I personally consider to be the "Big 3" of the genre. Its sad for me that the NG and DMC series are both headed in downward directions. In DMC's case, it at least had a fairly decent reboot, but I'm pretty convinced that the NG series is officially dead in terms of ever having any hopes of achieving its former glory. Its a shame, because I really loved the indirect rivalry that these 2 series had between the first 2 NG games and DMC 3 and 4 (with each respective entry being released roughly around the same window of time). I always love when there are rivaling series in any genre of gaming that both boast high levels of quality (like classic Mario and Sonic when it comes to platforming, or any number of the various rival fighting game series out there), and I would have loved to see a heated rivalry between to top-tier series like these (or at least they used to be) continue into the future of the hack n' slash genre. As we stand now, though, it looks as though Plantinum Games will be the only developers making any high quality hack n' slash games within the near future.
Oh, I also forgot to mention that I wish more games had real "personality" to them the way that DMC games do. I don't necessarily mean that they all have to be as over-the-top as DMC games. What I mean is that I'd love it if more characters in hack n' slash games were one less note. It wouldn't hurt to crack a smile or a joke every now and then, or at least have a sense of humor about themselves. I don't mean that they need to be spewing out one-liners like Dante does, but it'd be great if more characters had more to their personality than just being angry ass-holes on a quest to kill everything in their path (this is my main problem with Kratos). Even Ryu could do with some more substance to his character....but not the absolutely dumb-ass "substance" that Team Ninja tried to add to his character in NG3, which further goes along the line of what I HATE about most other characters in the genre. For something like NG, they should further exploit Ryu's sense of honor, which I find to be a bit of a rare entity in these sorts of games despite how basic it may seem. For instance, one of the few memorable moments in the story-line of an NG game was when Ryu defended Genshin's honor in NG2, when Elizabet kicked his dead body and showed him complete disrespect for being defeated by Ryu. Despite Genshin being Ryu's greatest adversary at the time from the Hayabusa's arch enemy clan, Ryu still had a lot of respect for him as another clan leader just looking out or his own. In the end, he didn't really hate him like he hated the Fiends that he had to slay. In this case, they were just 2 leaders of opposing clans that were pretty much destined to be enemies, and for that neither of them truly harbored any real hate towards the other. They were just doing what needed to be done, and it was really cool how after being defeated, Genshin granted Ryu with his blade before dying, symbolizing that he was the true victor, and even pretty much saying that he didn't hold any resentment toward Ryu for just carrying out his duty.
At any rate, my basic point of all that rambling is that I love moments were a character can show that there is more to them than just running around and killing things. I wish Ryu could exhibit more sides of himself in future NG games, just like how he showed his sense of honor in NG2. In that vein, I wish that more characters could have more defining characterisitics. This is what I like so much about Dante. He can easily switch from being a bad-ass to being a complete goof-ball to being surprisingly serious when the situation calls for it. His character isn't deep by any means, but its easily the most dynamic and entertaining character that I've ever personally seen in the genre to date.
I love the way the combat in hack n slash games plays out visually when you do well. Ninja Gaiden, Bayonetta, DMC, etc. are all fun to watch, but they're even better to play for yourself if you know what you're doing. I like how games like these are usually challenging without being overly frustrating (on Normal/Hard modes), because I am not very good at video games, but I still don't want to play something that's too easy. And, of course, I love anything that plays out like a real adventure, which is why I'd consider NGB and Bayo to be my two favorites in the genre.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on February 09, 2013, 02:55:34 AM
Oh, I also forgot to mention that I wish more games had real "personality" to them the way that DMC games do.
Yep!
Alright, after some thought put into it, I decided to rank the hack n' slash games that I've played at least a good chunk of in terms of how much I like their combat (not in terms of actual depth, but just how much satisfaction I get out of it). Also, its been way too long since I've played certain games (like the Otogi games), so I'll have to leave some stuff off from this list. Of course this ranking is very subjective and I am obviously VERY biased for Ninja Gaiden games. :P
Ninja Gaiden 2/Sigma 2 (Ryu) > Devil May Cry 4 (Dante) > Bayonetta = DMC3 (Dante) > Ninja Gaiden Black/Sigma (Ryu) > DMC 3 (Vergil) = DMC4 (Nero) > DMC1 > God of War (original) > Shinobi (PS2) > Genji: Dawn of the Samurai > Onimusha 2 > DMC2
And as for my rankings on my favorite games based on the overall package:
NGB > DMC3 > Bayonetta > DMC1 > NG2 > DMC4 > Onimusha 2 > Shinobi > God of War > Genji > DMC2
Everything up to God of War I consider to be good games (I'm not a fan of GoW, but that doesn't mean that I'll say its not still well-made), and the other 2 games are easily the weakest titles in the genre that I've played in full.
I pretty much agree completely with your first list, though I think I would swap DMC 4 and Bayonetta. Clearly we have very similar taste. ;) I guess I'll rank my favorites, too.
NGB > Bayonetta > MGR > DMC3 > DMC1 = NG2 > DMC4 > GoW 2 > Shinobi > DmC > Nightshade > GoW1 = GoW3 >>>>>>>>>>> NG3 > DMC2
Damn, your list reminds me that I still need to play Metal Gear Rising (and Darksiders 2, now that I think about it). I've just been waiting for them to come down in price (I'm especially surprised that DS2 still costs so much given that THQ went under already).
Oh, and that reminds me: I'd rank the original DS's combat below GoW. The sequel looks like a massive improvement, though.
Quote from: Foggle on June 22, 2013, 02:03:02 PM
I pretty much agree completely with your first list, though I think I would swap DMC 4 and Bayonetta. Clearly we have very similar taste. ;) I guess I'll rank my favorites, too.
Well, I'd give the overall edge to Bayonetta since most of DMC4 is Nero's game. However, I just find DMC4's Dante to be ridiculously crazy in just how much stuff you can do with him. Bayonetta has a deep and robust combat system as well, but there's just something about DMC4's Dante that leaves me in awe in just how much the developers managed to cram into a single character. From all of the games that I've played so far, I think that DMC4 Dante may just have the widest assortment of moves of any hack n' slash character to date. That said, I can see how most people would find Bayonetta's combat more satisfying, and for me it was a close call, either way, but I gave Dante the edge. I still ranked NG2 the highest, because even though its not technically the deepest combat system (its still high up there in how incredibly nuanced it is, though), its easily the most immediately satisfying yet simultaneously rewarding combat system that I have ever encountered in a video game yet.
Also, I should point out that I purposely didn't rank NG3 since I haven't played anything beyond the demo, yet. Granted that, I know it sucks hard from what I did play, but I still need to play most of the game to properly rank it, anyways. It'd probably end up tying with DMC2 for me, though.
Yeah, NG2's combat is crazy satisfying. The game itself isn't the best, but goddamn is it fun to play.
To be honest, I've only played the demos of DmC and NG3, but I feel pretty comfortable ranking them where I did. ;)
As a matter of fact, I was just playing Mission Mode in NG2 today, and it was insanely satisfying just to pick up and play again. After having replayed most of NGB, I can say that its clear that the already great combat received a lot of time and attention to make give it a huge upgrade, and the result is something that just has to be played to be truly appreciated. That said, everything else about the game was unfortunately a step down from NGB. I still think its a damn good game, though, even with its flaws, and for me at least my time playing it has reaffirmed that Team Ninja used to be insanely talented at making action games when Itagaki was the head of development. If NG2 hadn't been rushed, it very well could have become one of the best titles in its genre.
As for DmC, to be fair I've heard that the actual fully realized combat in the finished product is a lot better than what's on offer in the demo, but that's only what I've heard. With NG3, though, it is pretty much confirmed that the entire thing is unresponsive and bland crap the entire way through. Responsive controls and insanely satisfying combat is the one thing that the first 2 NG games had down in spades, despite any of their shortcomings. I have no idea how Team Ninja managed to so royally fuck up something that already worked perfectly fine before that, but somehow they managed to do it. Its quite sad, really.
They could have just made it a large level pack for NG2, really. Don't know how they fucked that up.
Honestly, they could have left NG2's combat untouched and made the level design more akin to NGB. And that right there is all you need to make the best game in history. Yet they royally fuck it all up. How? By trying to make Ninja Gaiden into a Call of Duty game....yeah, you heard me right....and that's when they might as well have have burned every copy of NGB and NG2 that they had on hand and then proceed to stick their middle fingers out in unison and have a caption in the picture stating "fuck the fans."
Seriously, what other developer decides to just so abruptly turn on the fans that have supported them and their games for OVER a freaking decade and then decide to try and cater to fans of an entire different genre of games (and still fail at that, as well)?
I wish that Platinum Games didn't have a strong bias against the Ninja Gaiden series (at least Kamiya does) and that Tecmo would actually be willing to do something with the series other than bleeding it out dry by instead outsourcing it to a C-level American development team with not a single successful title under their name. Anyone care to enlighten me on just what Tecmo's business strategy is, here?
I don't think Kamiya actually dislikes NG, he just has a joke feud with Itagaki like Harada does. That said, I think P* respects Itagaki and his team enough to not play Tecmo's game, so I can't see them going for the whole outsourcing thing.
Well, as I recall, Kamiya is genuinely not interested in Ninja Gaiden, though he does state that he can't say anything negative about the games themselves since he has never played any of them and doesn't ever intend to. Itagaki gave a joke response to this by just mocking Kamiya's seeming fascination with hair in Bayonetta, showing that he really had no hard feelings about the comment.
But, yeah, Platinum would never go for an outsourcing deal with NG, but I kind of think it has more to do with no interest in the series rather than out of respect for Itagaki, though I do believe that they have a genuine overall respect for Itagaki himself and developers like him, all the same.
I wish there was a NG1 remake with all of NG2's weapons and moves.
Quote from: gunswordfist on June 22, 2013, 06:21:01 PM
I wish there was a NG1 remake with all of NG2's weapons and moves.
That, and also bringing back the Kitetsu, Plasma Saber Mk II, Dabilarho, Unlabored Flawlessness, Dark Dragon Blade, and APFSDS Cores/Explosive Arrows from Ninja Gaiden Black. Those weapons were so bad-ass that I cannot for the life of me fathom why they were never brought back. Hell, you'd think that with NG3 being all focused on swords and "cutting" that they would have at least had the sense to bring back the Kitetsu in that game, but they fucked that up as well.
If I were to rank them.
DMC3=DMC4>NG2>NG1>MGR>everything else
There are times where I do stick up for the God of War games, but that's mainly because of the level of satisfaction I get, especially when I'm pissed, but they are no where near as fun as the DMCs or NGs. With that said though, MGR is definitely a lot more satisfying than GOW, and just might be more satisfying than all every game in the genre. I've yet to do a 2nd playthrough.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on June 22, 2013, 06:40:59 PM
Quote from: gunswordfist on June 22, 2013, 06:21:01 PM
I wish there was a NG1 remake with all of NG2's weapons and moves.
That, and also bringing back the Kitetsu, Plasma Saber Mk II, Dabilarho, Unlabored Flawlessness, Dark Dragon Blade, and APFSDS Cores/Explosive Arrows from Ninja Gaiden Black. Those weapons were so bad-ass that I cannot for the life of me fathom why they were never brought back. Hell, you'd think that with NG3 being all focused on swords and "cutting" that they would have at least had the sense to bring back the Kitetsu in that game, but they fucked that up as well.
I have no clue why they took away the explosive arrows.
DMC3
Bayonetta = MGR
NGB/S
Devil May Cry 4
No More Heroes 1
GoW3
DmC = GoW:Ascension
GoW1
A pile of shit
NG3/Razor's Edge = DMC2
My personal hack'n slash ranking. Keep in mind that I've only played the demo's for the GoW's, DmC, and vanilla NG3. I've only played the first level of DMC2, but that was enough for me to know that no good could come from it.
In terms of combat, DMC4 would tie with DMC3, or possibly even surpass it, but ranking things based on the actual games themselves, DMC4's flaws keep it from being that high. Bayo and MGR may not have any Bloody Palace modes, but their campaigns more than make up for that.
Quote from: Rynnec on June 24, 2013, 02:21:47 AM
DMC3
Bayonetta = MGR
NGB/S
Devil May Cry 4
No More Heroes 1
GoW3
DmC = GoW:Ascension
GoW1
Just out of curiosity, where would you rank DMC1?
QuoteA pile of shit
NG3/Razor's Edge = DMC2
The saddest thing about this is that at least DMC2 had an excuse for being completely ass. Its still inexcusable, but it was given to a completely new development team and was rushed out the door as fast as possible, so it was always doomed to fail. In NG3's case, however, it was made by people who SHOULD have known better, but they deliberately ignored their fans and made a series of the dumbest consecutive decisions that I've ever seen any developer make for a single game in history.
QuoteI've only played the first level of DMC2, but that was enough for me to know that no good could come from it.
If I didn't feel the absolute need to be a completionist and at least force myself to play through the entire game once, and instead was smart like you, I would have done the same. Unfortunately I had to force myself to slog through the whole damn thing until I beat it, and then I never touched it again. Believe it or not, the game actually gets worse. This may easily be the worst non-broken video game that I have ever played (though once I play all of NG3 for the same reasons, it may indeed tie with it, or dare I say even top it).
QuoteIn terms of combat, DMC4 would tie with DMC3, or possibly even surpass it, but ranking things based on the actual games themselves, DMC4's flaws keep it from being that high.
As I indicated in my rankings earlier, I think that Dante's combat in DMC4 specifically is the best combat mechanics of the entire franchise to date. That said, I think that Nero's combat, while great on its own, isn't nearly as robust or as much fun, and the same goes for Vergil in DMC3, who is also a fun character, but just feels far more shallow than what Dante has to offer.
QuoteBayo and MGR may not have any Bloody Palace modes, but their campaigns more than make up for that.
I do still wish more games had modes like those, though. I love Bloody Palace mode (even though I suck at it), and I especially get addicted to Mission Mode in NGB. I also like NG2's mission mode, albeit to a lesser degree.
Quote from: Ensatsu-kenJust out of curiosity, where would you rank DMC1?
I
knew there was a game I was forgetting. DMC1 would go right below DMC4, tying with NMH. :)
Quote from: Rynnec on June 24, 2013, 06:48:25 PM
Quote from: Ensatsu-kenJust out of curiosity, where would you rank DMC1?
I knew there was a game I was forgetting. DMC1 would go right below DMC4, tying with NMH. :)
Speaking of forgetting games, I also forgot to ask you about where you would rank Darksiders 2. ;)
Also, why does DS2 still cost so much at retail stores? I thought that the game would go down in price as soon as THQ officially went under, but it still costs near full-price at any retail store I got to. Even used copies of the game still cost over $40, and I usually don't spend more than $20 per game these days.
Oh well, I really should just finally buckle down and buy Bayonetta to add to my collection, and so that I can play it on the harder difficulty settings as well. Seeing the gameplay for Bayo 2 reminded me that its still the best current hack n' slash series around.
You know what saddens me, though? Its just how freaking low the NG series has sunk. As a fan of hack n' slash games, I am grateful for titles like Bayo 2 and MGR, but as a Ninja Gaiden fan, I'm biased as hell just as any fan would be, and really want to see the series get out of its slump and have its equivalent of a DMC3-style renaissance (or even something akin to RE4 in the sense that it revolutionizes the gameplay of its own genre). It just really stings to see how bad the series has become under terrible management.
Its like Ninja Gaiden/Black/Sigma was the epic emergence of a powerful knew competitor in the hack n' slash genre. For a time, it was on the absolute top. Then it dabbled in some new stuff on the side and showed us that it could still do interesting new stuff in Ninja Gaiden: Dragon Sword, even though most fans stubbornly ignored it and only wanted to see it do its main thing. Then NG2 came out, and in retrospect it was kind of a let-down, but also a very terrific effort despite its flaws and still really good competition for its time. Then the series sold out its loyal fans and indulged in chap corporate money-making, but it backfired and the series just failed for it with the abysmal NG3 and the barely any better Razor's Edge. In a state of depression and rage, it made another terrible decision and got into drugs and now we are getting what is called Ninja Gaiden Z. Yeah, its safe to say now that this series has gone to shit.
The sad thing is that most people only know the series from NG2 onward, as NG2 was the highest selling NG game by far, and where most people decided to start. While I like NG2, its flaws turned a lot of people off and gave them the wrong impression of the series as a whole, and then NG3 pretty much killed any credibility it had, and nobody even played freaking Dragon Sword, so that one never stood a chance. NGB/S, which is by far the best game in the series, is also the least-played game in the series, and the most forgotten (once again, aside from DS), which is a bitter shame.
Having said that, its still great to see the genre has life left in it with other great hack n' slash titles. Its just that part of me wishes that Itagaki never left Team Ninja and got to actually "finish" making NG2 and also made NG3 the way that he would have wanted to make it. Then the series would still be a healthy source of competition in a genre that seriously needs it.
I still have to finish DS2, though, I consider it more of an adventure/action RPG with some hack'n slash elements than a full on hack'n slash game.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken
If I didn't feel the absolute need to be a completionist and at least force myself to play through the entire game once, and instead was smart like you, I would have done the same. Unfortunately I had to force myself to slog through the whole damn thing until I beat it, and then I never touched it again. Believe it or not, the game actually gets worse. This may easily be the worst non-broken video game that I have ever played (though once I play all of NG3 for the same reasons, it may indeed tie with it, or dare I say even top it).
The only reason I bothered with DMC2 in the first place was so I could try out the Majin Devil Trigger, which is one of the few interesting things in the game.
However, I wouldn't mind if they remade 2 (along with 1) to make it more like the other games, both in tone and gameplay. In fact, someone on another forum brought up interesting ideas for a remake of 2 (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13188617830A63256600&page=4#86).
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on June 26, 2013, 04:32:53 PM
Also, why does DS2 still cost so much at retail stores? I thought that the game would go down in price as soon as THQ officially went under, but it still costs near full-price at any retail store I got to. Even used copies of the game still cost over $40, and I usually don't spend more than $20 per game these days.
It's going for $16.69 on Amazon, and $14.99 on Gamelfy (though, you'll have to subscribe to their service to rent and keep it). Not sure what the deal is with other retailers.
QuoteOh well, I really should just finally buckle down and buy Bayonetta to add to my collection, and so that I can play it on the harder difficulty settings as well. Seeing the gameplay for Bayo 2 reminded me that its still the best current hack n' slash series around.
Bayo 2 looks freakin' fantastic. I really want to know more about the co-op features it will supposedly have.
QuoteYou know what saddens me, though? Its just how freaking low the NG series has sunk. As a fan of hack n' slash games, I am grateful for titles like Bayo 2 and MGR, but as a Ninja Gaiden fan, I'm biased as hell just as any fan would be, and really want to see the series get out of its slump and have its equivalent of a DMC3-style renaissance (or even something akin to RE4 in the sense that it revolutionizes the gameplay of its own genre). It just really stings to see how bad the series has become under terrible management.
Ninja Gaiden has it worse than Devil May Cry at this point. At least with DMC, old Dante still makes appearances in crossover titles like MVC3 and Project X Zone, and there's still a chance for the DMC 3/4 team to make a proper DMC5.
QuoteIts like Ninja Gaiden/Black/Sigma was the epic emergence of a powerful knew competitor in the hack n' slash genre. For a time, it was on the absolute top. Then it dabbled in some new stuff on the side and showed us that it could still do interesting new stuff in Ninja Gaiden: Dragon Sword, even though most fans stubbornly ignored it and only wanted to see it do its main thing. Then NG2 came out, and in retrospect it was kind of a let-down, but also a very terrific effort despite its flaws and still really good competition for its time. Then the series sold out its loyal fans and indulged in chap corporate money-making, but it backfired and the series just failed for it with the abysmal NG3 and the barely any better Razor's Edge. In a state of depression and rage, it made another terrible decision and got into drugs and now we are getting what is called Ninja Gaiden Z. Yeah, its safe to say now that this series has gone to shit.
Just watched a few Yaiba trailers, and wow. What the fuck does any of that have to do with NG? At least it's just a spin-off rather than a numbered title, but yeesh.
QuoteThe sad thing is that most people only know the series from NG2 onward, as NG2 was the highest selling NG game by far, and where most people decided to start. While I like NG2, its flaws turned a lot of people off and gave them the wrong impression of the series as a whole, and then NG3 pretty much killed any credibility it had, and nobody even played freaking Dragon Sword, so that one never stood a chance. NGB/S, which is by far the best game in the series, is also the least-played game in the series, and the most forgotten (once again, aside from DS), which is a bitter shame.
I was always under the impression more people were familiar with NG Black/Sigma?
QuoteHaving said that, its still great to see the genre has life left in it with other great hack n' slash titles. Its just that part of me wishes that Itagaki never left Team Ninja and got to actually "finish" making NG2 and also made NG3 the way that he would have wanted to make it. Then the series would still be a healthy source of competition in a genre that seriously needs it.
Maybe once/if Devil's Third
finally gets released, Itagaki will make his own "Bayonetta", so to speak.
Quote from: RynnecI was always under the impression more people were familiar with NG Black/Sigma?
Agreed, especially considering the amount of times it's been (re)released.
Thanks for the info. I may just get the game off of Amazon instead of waiting for the retail price to go down.
And yeah, for a hack n' slash series that used to rival the likes of DMC and God of War in terms of critical acclaim, the NG series really does have it the worst of all right now. With something like Yaiba, I don't mind so much that its a spin-off of the Ninja Gaiden series about zombies, but it just looks so half-assed and gimmicky in its approach to over-the-top violence, and it seems to be trying to go for a sense of humor akin to a game from a developer like Grasshopper or Platinum, but its failing miserably at it for the most part, and fails to capture what makes those games so funny and also so damn entertaining and engaging to play. To me, it just looks like crap that's using the Ninja Gaiden name (which already isn't worth too much as it is, these days) for a little extra push in sales in order to make a quick buck and basically milk out the franchise for all it has left in it. I'm really disappointed that Keiji Inafune, the man behind freaking Mega Man, is basically treating what used to be one of my favorite action series like a complete joke and handing its development over to a sloppy team like Spark Unlimited.
As for Grave's comment, I should point out that Ninja Gaiden 2 has also been re-released twice (Sigma 2 and Sigma 2 Plus), and on top of that, its total cumulative sales through the original version and its re-releases tops that of NG1's sales and its re-releases. I've also encountered plenty of people on the NG boards that I used to go to who only started with NG2 and were completely ignorant of the first game.
That's not to imply that I don't like NG2, because I have a hugely biased love for the game, but I can acknowledge its flaws now in the same way that I can acknowledge DMC4's flaws. Both are very good games that just lack the polish and content to be quite as good as their previous respective installments (IMO).
Here's another question I was thinking of: How good do you guys think you are at hack n' slash games in general?
For me, just so long as the game doesn't have a lot of platforming segments, this is one of the few genres where I feel that my skill level is generally above average, whereas I openly admit to sucking at most other kinds of games (single-player FPS games being the other genre that I feel I'm above average at). Now, mind you, I'm not saying that I'm great at these games, or even very good. I consider great players to be the ones who put together various handicap runs, or pull off insane combos that they put up in videos that I couldn't ever even hope to accomplish mimicking no matter how much I tried due to my limited reflexes.
That said, I am usually good enough to beat almost any given hack n' slash game on its highest available difficulty setting. I should say that, with DMC4, I got about half-way through the game on Dante Must Die mode, but then I stopped. It wasn't because I found it too hard, but because I was kind of getting bored with the game by that point (it was my 3rd play-through of it). The actual mode itself I was having no real trouble with, aside from a few fights, and I'm very positive that I could have beaten the rest of the game without too much trouble on that difficulty setting if I wanted to. That said, I definitely am not good enough to the point of being able to complete that game on Hell and Hell mode, that's just way too masochistic for me.
With DMC3, I'm currently on Very Hard mode, and find it to be rather tame. I know that DMD mode is mostly hard because enemies have the ability to DT, but I don't see that being an issue for me as long as I'm good at evading their attacks. To be honest, I can't say whether I'd do any good in DMC1's DMD mode, but I found the game to be rather easy and surprisingly forgiving on its Normal difficulty setting, and as far as I can tell the main thing to watch out for is just the insane amount of damage that Dante can take on DMD mode, and that its best to kill the enemies before they have the chance to DT in that game.
I can also beat both of the first 2 Ninja Gaiden games on Master Ninja mode. That said I can't do any handicap runs on those difficulties.
In terms of advanced combat mechanics and such, I can never fully master the combat of any of these games the way that people who do the insane combo videos do, but I can get them down on a deeper level than most people would. I am good enough to utilize stuff outside of just "base" skills, such as cancels, i-frames, and so on, and memorizing the most effective weapons and combos to use against specific enemy types is one of my personal specialties. I also hardly ever use items in most of these games, so I don't ever find myself farming for healing items and spamming them on difficult boss fights or such.
So, yeah, overall I'd say that I'm pretty decent at hack n' slash games, though once again, I'm nowhere near great at them.
I am bad at them. I can beat most hack n slash games on the Normal and Hard difficulties, but I am by no means skilled at them, and generally victory comes down to luck as often as skill for me.
Well, I should mention that I by no means have great reflexes. Hell, my reflexes are pretty terrible, which is why I'll never be able to master any fighting game. That said, the thing I find appealing about good hack n' slash games is that they are honestly very strategic at heart. That's how I manage to get through NG and DMC on their harder difficulty settings more than anything else. I always have the right combination of weapons to use in my strategy, and when appropriate, I can also use my surrounding environment to my advantage.
Awful. Embarrassingly bad.
Though I got good at the Mega Man Zero series, I was still nowhere near great at them.
It's probably the genre I'm best at. I'm not a pro at it by any means, but I do have a generally good idea of what I'm doing, and can probably pull of stuff that casuals would have a hard time doing.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 15, 2013, 06:29:11 PM
Awful. Embarrassingly bad.
Though I got good at the Mega Man Zero series, I was still nowhere near great at them.
That reminds me, I wish there were more 2D hack n' slash platformers.
Quote from: Rynnec on July 15, 2013, 06:33:10 PM
It's probably the genre I'm best at. I'm not a pro at it by any means, but I do have a generally good idea of what I'm doing, and can probably pull of stuff that casuals would have a hard time doing.
I know this is kind of unrelated, but what's your favorite style to use with Dante? I just figured that you could tell a lot about someone's preferences and play-style for this genre in general just from having that question answered alone.
For me its Sword Master. It just fits my play-style in every conceivable way. Sure, I do love the insane shit you can pull off with the gunslinger style, the agility you have at your disposal with the Trickster style, and the defense and counter-based combat that you can pull off with the Royal Guard style, but at the end of the day I'm just a guy who likes flat-out offensive melee combat, and Sword Master just offers up such a wide arsenal of moves for each and every weapon that its like a hack n' slash game's equivalent of an all-you-can eat buffet line for me (if that analogy even makes any sense to anyone but me :sweat: ).
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 15, 2013, 06:39:25 PM
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 15, 2013, 06:29:11 PM
Awful. Embarrassingly bad.
Though I got good at the Mega Man Zero series, I was still nowhere near great at them.
That reminds me, I wish there were more 2D hack n' slash platformers.
There are a few, but the MMZ series are clearly the peak of that style. And managing it with so few buttons is still pretty impressive.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 15, 2013, 06:39:25 PM
Quote from: Rynnec on July 15, 2013, 06:33:10 PM
It's probably the genre I'm best at. I'm not a pro at it by any means, but I do have a generally good idea of what I'm doing, and can probably pull of stuff that casuals would have a hard time doing.
I know this is kind of unrelated, but what's your favorite style to use with Dante? I just figured that you could tell a lot about someone's preferences and play-style for this genre in general just from having that question answered alone.
For me its Sword Master. It just fits my play-style in every conceivable way. Sure, I do love the insane shit you can pull off with the gunslinger style, the agility you have at your disposal with the Trickster style, and the defense and counter-based combat that you can pull off with the Royal Guard style, but at the end of the day I'm just a guy who likes flat-out offensive melee combat, and Sword Master just offers up such a wide arsenal of moves for each and every weapon that its like a hack n' slash game's equivalent of an all-you-can eat buffet line for me (if that analogy even makes any sense to anyone but me :sweat: ).
Sword Master same as you, and for similar reasons. I like the agility of Trickster, but it takes away from your aerial offensive options, which I have trouble doing without SM. The gunplay of the Gunslinger style look cool too, and Royal Guard is just godly, but I'd probably be shit with it if I tried using it myself.
I'm only just now starting to get competent at using Royal Guard, but I can see how insanely useful it will be when mastered. This thing can even make boss encounters on DMD mode a total joke once you know how to use it properly, from what I've seen in various videos.
I think that Trickster is probably the most immediately practical style to use on pretty much any difficulty setting for almost any encounter. That said, I like the feeling of just beating the crap out of my enemies with the varied and powerful attacks of the Sword Master style. As for Gunslinger, its probably the least practical style to use in terms of just getting past fights, but its great for style points, or just doing cool things in general. That said, its honestly the hardest style for me to master.
I'm pretty much just a button masher that tries to quickly overpower enemies but I am decent at beating enemies by paying attention to their attack patterns
QuoteHere's another question I was thinking of: How good do you guys think you are at hack n' slash games in general?
Somewhere between the lines of total scrub and decent, but I suppose that's the perk of not really caring about difficulty and using the genre for aggression. If I were to actually try and play them at a higher difficulty to actually learn the game in's' and out's of the combat mechanics I can get be fairly decent, but, those days are long gone. I'm probably a total scrub.
You seem to be pretty decent at fighting games, so I'd always imagined you'd be pretty good at hack n' slash games. I just figured that with fighting games, the amount of precision and timing needed to pull off combos and exploit certain attacks was way stricter than in any hack n' slash game that I have ever played, which are usually pretty lenient with timing and such, so I just thought you'd find it easier to be good at those sorts of games. To be fair, though, there are a lot of other factors that you have to worry about in hack n' slash games that don't apply to fighting games (especially 2D ones), in that you are usually fighting multiple enemies at once, and the bosses usually don't follow the same set of rules as your character does.
Oh don't get me wrong (I'm a scrub in fighters too lol), If I were to actually put in the time, yeah I think I'd be a little more competent. It's just that I use these type of games specifically for my anger (at least until I get a punching bag or something), but I will say blame the fighting games because back before I got back into the fighters I would definitely play this genre for the challenge.
I remember the first time playing Ninja Gaiden 2 on Warrior (I was dared to do it since I usually start games off on the easiest and work my way up), and while I didn't think it was hard, it definitely had it's challenge. That transition from Warrior to Mentor though, wow, it was like a brand new game, and I was actually having fun.
Random thought: It just occurred to me that the hack n' slash genre (as we know it today) was essentially set in motion by the production of an obscure Japanese horror movie.
Specifically, I'm talking about Sweet Home. You see, if they didn't ever decide to produce this film in Japan, then there wouldn't have been a game made in conjunction with it to help further promote the movie. If the game for Sweet Home wasn't made, then they wouldn't have tried to remake the game for the PS1, and then we wouldn't have gotten Resident Evil, since the 1st RE game was originally supposed to be a remake of Sweet Home. And, thus, if we never had Resident Evil, we would never have gotten Devil May Cry, with the first DMC game itself originally being developed as Resident Evil 4 before Capcom decided to change it into a completely new series since it was too action-oriented for an RE game at the time (yet it's still a better RE game than RE 5 and 6). And of course, if we never got DMC, we wouldn't have the formula set in place for the hack n' slash games that we've come to know and love.
Based on this realization of mine, I can only conclude that the best way to celebrate and pay tribute to the hack n' slash genre to it's fullest is for someone to do that Sweet Home remake, but instead of making it a JPRG, it should be a Sweet Home hack n' slash game. That is all.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on August 26, 2013, 08:10:50 PM
Random thought: It just occurred to me that the hack n' slash genre (as we know it today) was essentially set in motion by the production of an obscure Japanese horror movie.
Specifically, I'm talking about Sweet Home. You see, if they didn't ever decide to produce this film in Japan, then there wouldn't have been a game made in conjunction with it to help further promote the movie. If the game for Sweet Home wasn't made, then they wouldn't have tried to remake the game for the PS1, and then we wouldn't have gotten Resident Evil, since the 1st RE game was originally supposed to be a remake of Sweet Home. And, thus, if we never had Resident Evil, we would never have gotten Devil May Cry, with the first DMC game itself originally being developed as Resident Evil 4 before Capcom decided to change it into a completely new series since it was too action-oriented for an RE game at the time (yet it's still a better RE game than RE 5 and 6). And of course, if we never got DMC, we wouldn't have the formula set in place for the hack n' slash games that we've come to know and love.
Based on this realization of mine, I can only conclude that the best way to celebrate and pay tribute to the hack n' slash genre to it's fullest is for someone to do that Sweet Home remake, but instead of making it a JPRG, it should be a Sweet Home hack n' slash game. That is all.
:SHOCK: I didn't know RE was originally going to be a Sweet Home remake. Genuine shock. And celebrate by yourself but just playing the game. :bleh:
Alright, so here's my current top 9 favorite Hack n' Slash games:
09. Darksiders 2 (I still need to beat it, but the game is pretty good up until the section on Earth)
08. Shinobi (PS2)
07. Devil May Cry 4
06. Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance (might be higher once I play the DLC missions, as well as replaying through the main game)
05. Ninja Gaiden II (XBOX 360)
04. Bayonetta (same as MGRR)
03. Devil May Cry
02. Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening (Special Edition)
01. Ninja Gaiden Black
Despite this being my favorite genre in gaming, this list really shows how few good games there are in the genre. It's really the strength of my top 4 favorite, which are all amazing, which are able to make me love this genre so much by themselves. Yes, putting my annoyance with some of the obnoxious praise from game journalists aside, I do respect the God of War genre as a legitimate contender in this genre. That said, it's just not my cup of tea, personally, but I completely understand why other people find them to be so appealing.
There are other hack n' slash games that I have played, but I couldn't list them for various reasons. For instance, Hunter: The Reckoning is only ever fun on co-op, and as a single-player experience it really shows its flaws. There are also the Onimusha and Otogi games, but I never played enough of those, and I haven't touched any of them in ages, so I have no idea if they even hold up or not. There are plenty of others that I have tried that are either just complete shit or average at best, such as Genji: Dawn of the Samurai, Dante's Inferno, Ninja Blade, and so on. The Dynasty Warriors Games that I have tried just bore me, personally. As for NG3....well, we all know that's a piece of shit. As for Dragon Sword, that one's a bit odd and I'm not really sure if I can count it as a hack n' slash game, which is why I didn't list it. DmC: Devil May Cry was definitey entertaining, but it lacks the substance of most of the other games on my list, and it doesn't have the fun puzzle and light-RPG elements of DS2 to make up for its shortcomings.
And of course there are several hack n' slash games that I still haven't tried. Most notably my list is really lacking any good 2D hack n' slash games, though I really should try The Dishwasher and Mega Man Zero games at some point in time. I also should probably look into that one XBLA/PSN game by the same guy who made Strider (I forget what it's called, ATM). That said, yeah, this genre has some of the best games ever created, but unfortunately it doesn't have that many great games. The ones that it does have are infinitely replayable, though.
Also, as for #'s 8 and 9, those are really kind of stretching it, but I did at least enjoy both games more than average. With Shinobi, it's far from a perfect game, but I do find it to be the rare type of action-platformer from that era of gaming that actually really works, and surprisingly doesn't have too many problems with the camera or controls (which you would expect to be an issue with most games from that period of time). As for DS2, it's a good if rather unimaginative game, but the Earth section of the game (which I hear is fairly close to the end of it, anyways) is stupid (I'll get back into it eventually, though), and it's also one of those games that I know pretty much has no replay value for me past my first playthrough. That said, it is pretty lengthy in the first place, which still makes it worth playing.
I consider Shinobi 2k2 to be more of a platformer than a full-on hack'n slash. Even if there is more combat in the latter sections of the game (I've only finished the first two levels) I don't think the combat is deep enough to be compared to most hack'n slashes. For similar reasons, I also don't consider the Megaman Zero games to be hack'n slashes.
Eh, I can see your argument, but there is no solid definition for what makes a game qualify as a hack n' slash (which by the way is not "officially" a genre, if you really want to be technical). To me, any game that has a significant amount of combat featuring some form of bladed weapons counts as a hack n' slash. If having deep combat is what's necessary, then I'd like to remind you that a majority of games wouldn't count, including stuff like Dante's Inferno, Genji, and so on, despite clearly fitting most of the staples of the genre.
As for Shinobi, it features equal amounts action and platforming, and while the combat itself is not deep, it IS nuanced, which is to say that it's integrated into the gameplay in a manner that demands some form of skill, in the sense of how to maximize your damage with attacks as well as when it is and is not appropriate to attack. That, to me, is enough to qualify it as a hack n' slash game.
Well, my personal criteria for a game to qualify as a Hack'n Slash is that it has to have 1) A decent amount of combat as its focus, and 2)have some form of a combo system. To that end, Shinobi doesn't qualify, as even the more shallow hack'n slashes not only have combat as its focus, but also allow to string multi-hit combos (doesn't Dante's Inferno have a combo counter?). Still a great game though.
As for 2D Hack'n Slashes, I'd say give Muramasa The Demon Blade a try once you get a Wii. Dust is also pretty good, but it's more in the camp of Darksiders II, 'cept with a crappier story and worse voice acting.
To each his own, then. I think Shinobi counts as a hack n' slash game based on the reasons I stated above. If you want to be technical you do "combo" enemies in the game, in that you perform consecutive slashes. It's just that the game lacks an actual move-set like other games in the genre. To me that just makes its take on combat different, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't count. And on that end, I wouldn't call it a pure platformer either, because of its equal focus on action.
To draw a line between what does and doesn't count, I don't count the classic NG or Shinobi games as hack n' slash because most enemies die in one hit, and thus the sword-play in that regard lacks any form of combos.
As for Muramasa, I'll probably give it a try whenever I manage to snag myself a DS (or a 2DS if it's BC with DS games).
You mean a Wii or WiiU? Because I don't think Muramasa is on the DS. It is on the Vita though.
Sorry, I had a brain fart when I wrote that. :P
Just out of boredom (again), here is a quick list of my top 12 favorite weapons in hack n' slash games (which incidentally are only from either NG or DMC games), along with my favorite moves for each of them:
12. Unlabored Flawlessness (Ninja Gaiden Black): Earth Splitter
11. True Dragon Sword (Ninja Gaiden 2): Gleaming Blade
10. Eclipse Scythe (Ninja Gaiden 2): River Styx Drop
9. Red Queen (DMC4): EX-High Roller --> Roulette Spin
8. Agni & Rudra (DMC3): Tempest/Crazy Twister
7. Vigoorian Flail (Ninja Gaiden Black/2): Dancing Phoenix
6. Beowulf (DMC3): Rising Dragon
5. Lunar Staff (Ninja Gaiden Black/2): Heavenly Shadow --> Izuna Drop
4. Rebellion (DMC3): Dance Macabre
3. Falcon's Talons (Ninja Gaiden 2): Crushing Vermillion Bird Strike --> Izuna Drop
2. Blade of the Archfiend (Ninja Gaiden 2): Underworld Drop
1. Tonfas (Ninja Gaiden 2): Overlapping Storms
The Tonfas have a bunch of great moves, but they are also my favorite weapon primarily because of the Heavenly Justice cancel, which is really the only weapon in the NG games that has a legitimate move dedicated to cancelling, which allows you to link tons of crazy combos together.
So, I'm just kind of curious as to how you guys tend to play these sorts of games. Do you just play it once or twice to get your fill, or do you replay the hell out of them and really try to get to know the finer points of the game inside and out? And do you ever try to conquer the higher difficulty settings?
When it's a game that I really love, then I'll play it over and over again and try my best to get really good at it. Despite this, believe it or not, the only one of these games that I've managed to beat on its highest available difficulty setting are the first 2 NG games. I have played through half of DMC4 on DMD mode but then I stopped because I was kind of losing interest in the game by that point in time. As for DMC3, I'm in the process of completing DMD mode, but admittedly it's so frustrating that I have to take it in strides and only tackle one mission at a time. Still, I love playing these games on harder difficulty settings until I find that one that strikes a good balance of challenge and fun for me, which almost always turns ou to be Very Hard mode or some equivalent of it.
The other thing that keeps me coming back in the best of these games is the combat and the enemies/bosses. A great combat system will have a ton of nuance that'll always have you discovering new things about its intricacies. And great enemies and bosses will offer up plenty of challenge and keep the game feeling fresh. It doesn't feel repetitive when these enemies that you start getting used to fighting all of a sudden start doing different shit to you on higher difficulty settings. I always enjoy studying the enemy AI behavior in games like NG and DMC.
Depends on the game. For the most part I'll usually play any hack n slasher a 2nd time just to see if there's a new game+ and to see what carries over. If I enjoy the game then I'll play it roughly 4-5 times, although I take longer periods to get back to that 4th or 5th playthrough just so I don't burn myself out on them. The only games I've actually played more than 4 times is DMC3&4.
I will say this. Despite having played DMC3&4 many times, Ninja Gaiden 2 is the only game that I've attempted to play on higher difficulties. I probably owe it to myself to attempt to play DMC3&4 on a higher difficulty setting at least once just to see if I feel any different towards them much like I felt towards NG2's jump from warrior to mentor.
Yeah, NG2 has a pretty substantial jump in difficulty between Warrior mode and Mentor mode. With NGB/S it's between Hard mode and Very Hard mode where you get the biggest jump in difficulty. With DMC3 it's also a big jump between Hard mode and Very Hard mode. As for DMD mode, it doesn't necessarily feel that much harder than Very Hard at first, until you get to the second half of the game which has a HUGE jump in difficulty since that's when the game starts throwing the most ridiculous and annoying enemy sets at you in rapid succession, and maybe it's just me but it feels like they start to Devil Trigger more often once you get to that point in the game. Compared to that, DMC4 didn't feel like it ever had a tremendous jump in difficulty, but to be fair I quit playing it around Mission 9 on DMD mode, so it's possible that it got harder in its second half much like DMC3 did, but on the whole I found the game to be much easier than DMC3 ever was.
Actually, that brings up another interesting topic. How would you rank the hack n' slash games that you've played in terms of overall difficulty? Here's how I would rank them (based only on their default difficulty settings on my first run through them), myself:
Shinobi (PS2) > DMC3 > NG2 > DMC = NGB/S > DMC4 > MGRR > Bayonetta > Darksiders 2 > Genji: Dawn of the Samurai = DMC2
Once again, it's been too long since I've played any of the Onimusha or Otogi games, so I can't really rank any of them, though I generally remember Onimusha 2 being kind of difficult for me at the time, but I was considerably worse at games back then.
On default difficulty? Hmm...
DMC3 = NG2 > NG1 > Onimusha: DoD > GoW1
I left off DMC1/4, GoW2/3 (have yet to play 3) mainly because I didn't think those games were difficult back when I first played them, but then again it's been so long since I've played a lot of these games I need to start replaying a lot of them.
I definitely remember struggling with Onimusha 4 (that was a big jump from O3).
Well just because I ranked all of those games doesn't mean that I necessarily found them all to be difficult. Everything up to NGB/S were challenging for me on my first run through them. After that they were all fairly easy games, but still varied in terms of their learning curve and such, so I ranked them accordingly.
That may have came out wrong. I got what you were doing. It's more like laziness or memory issues on my part.
It's been so long especially for DMC1. I think I was around 19-20 years old when I first played that game, and I'll be 30 this year, so I'm drawing a lot of blanks when it comes to remembering some of the things that went down in DMC1. I remember the spider and that dreaded water level, but I don't remember if I struggled or not, or maybe I should say nothing really left scars the way the ones I mentioned did.
I just remembered that I forgot to rank DmC, but it'd probably go behind Bayonetta for me, and that's going by Nephilim mode, while technically the default difficulty is supposed to be Devil Hunter.
The best of the best compared to the just good and average/medicore ratio is admittedly a tad lower than desired, but just based on the core few games of the genre that stand at the top of it (stuff like Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, and maybe MGRR despite its faults are what come to mind for me, personally), I want to highlight some reasons why I think it may just be the best genre of games out there, or at least among action/adventure games. That means these are the reasons why I think that if there were more games like these, then this genre would be better than the TPS, FPS, and even platforming genres, which once again, is just a personal opinion of mine. Here are 5 brief reasons why I think this:
5. They're Just So Fucking Cool- Admittedly the most shallow reason, but admit it, no matter how amazingly good the classic Mario games are, or how much you liked shooting things up in DOOM or any side-scrolling shooter like Contra, or how much you enjoyed fist-to-fist fighting in great beat-em-ups like Streets of Rage or in any fighting game, there was a part of all of you that wanted to experience balls-to-the-walls, all-out sword-fighting and weapon-based combat in an adventure style setting. And, I don't just mean clean attacks with a blunt feeling to them that felt no different than a beat-em-up (like in Turtles in Time or Golden Axe, for example, which are awesome, of course, but still beat-em-ups, through and through). No, you wanted that anime style slice-em-up action where you really felt like you were slicing through whoever stood in your way. Well, this genre essentially caters to that visceral fantasy, and the best of the bunch don't do it in a sadistic or disgusting way, but in a way that makes you feel cool, like a bad-ass anime character.
4. The Best of Two Worlds: Combining the Depth of a Fighting Game With the Fun of an Adventure Game- Many of us love squaring off in one-on-one bouts (or battle royale type scenarios in games like Smash Bros. or Power Stone 2) against other skilled opponents, and many of us love solving puzzles or doing some light platforming or just flat-out exploring a world or even just a level for secrets and useful items to use. The first games that tried to combine those 2 elements were beat-em-up games, though while many of them are awesome, a lot of the classic ones had severe limitations in both departments, in that they successfully combined the two genres, but lacked the depth and nuance of fighting games, while also having much less room for hidden areas and such akin to full-fledged adventure games like platformers (games like God Hand being among the few notable exceptions). That said, hack n' slash games, starting from titles like the original Devil May Cry, really got both elements of gameplay nailed down almost perfectly. And ever since then we've had various other great titles in this regard. It's great to master really complex moves in Ninja Gaiden or Bayonetta, which contrary to popular belief is not only something a few very skilled players can do, but rather anyone who is willing to invest some time into getting better will reap the rewards of becoming skilled players themselves.
3. The Challenge- Many of these games will no doubt kick your ass at first. Admittedly that's probably the least fun phase of these games, and many people quit at this stage, which is why this genre is sadly not more popular than it is. However, if you tough it out and focus on learning what your mistakes are, studying enemy patterns and such, and getting better at the game in general, you'll be treated to possibly the most rewarding experience in all of gaming. The room for improvement in terms of the level of skill in these games (and not relying on difficulty from just cheap bull-shit) is phenomenal. You don't have to become a master to at least eventually get good at the default difficulty setting in NG or DMC, and then when you replay the game you'll initially wonder why it changed and why things are way easier than on your first playthrough than what you remember. And, the answer is that the game didn't change at all. You as a player changed, and you got better. I LOVE that about these games. And yes, various shooters and platformers can boast this as well, but to my knowledge none can do so quite to the extent of something like the aforementioned hack n' slash games which I've been talking about. For a good example, I died 50+ times on my first playthrough of NG2 on Path of the Warrior difficulty. I used tons of healing items on my first run through and had a lot of sloppy fights. Then I beat it, tackled the harder difficulties one at a time, and after struggling through and completing Master Ninja mode, I came back to Path of the Warrior mode to see how much I had improved from my initial playthrough. What used to be an incredibly challenging experience for me now became an utter joke. On a fresh run (NOT a new game +), I was able to clear the entire difficulty with only 1 death in the whole game (due to sloppiness on my part), and I didn't use a single healing item at all throughout the entire experience. Now that's when you know a game isn't just bull-shit cheap deaths, and that you legitimately got much better at it.
2. The Enemies/Bosses- When we're talking about the best hack n' slash games out there, these have every other genre beat flat-out. Sorry, but as much as I love great shooters and platformers (and trust me, I LOVE the best of those genre as well, and Yoshi's Island is easily one of my top 3 favorite games ever made) these just can't compare to the pure awesomeness that you find in the enemies, and especially the boss fights, of games like Ninja Gaiden Black, Devil May Cry, and in this case even MGRR which has amazing boss fights. The key word here is nuance. In regard to both enemies and bosses, games like NGB and DMC1 in particular have such goddamn INTERESTING enemy design. Unfortunately you're not likely going to see teh full extent of what they can do unless you tackle the harder difficulties, but trust me, it's really worth it. With DMC1 in particular, I LOVE how enemies and bosses all have extreme weaknesses that can potentially let you kill them in one-hit, or just a few hits for tougher enemies and bosses. You can of course combo away at them, but it's going to be both time-consuming and very frustrating if you get punished badly. On the other hand, if you have the patience for (and like me, get joy out of) experimentation, you will discover brand new ways to fight enemies that do take skill, but are also incredibly rewarding strategies to master. With games like NGB, on the other hand, while they don't have enemy weaknesses to that extreme, the enemies and bosses can all be thoroughly pulverized in no time flat IF you know what you're doing, and how to best exploit Ryu's deep arsenal of weapons and abilities. For example, the Unlabored Flawlessness can kill ANY boss in just one single attack flat, but the catch is that it's only that powerful when you are at < 5% of your health, which basically means that you'll just die in one more hit. So the risk is that you can only take one hit, and it takes time to charge up an attack, but if you have the boss pattern down, you'll end up destroying a boss that normally takes a few minutes to fight in less than 20 seconds. Or even if you don't use that strategy, you can still completely tear apart bosses that take a long time to initially fight if you know the right ways to attack with your character and how to both avoid their attacks with ease and capitalize on opportunities where they are vulnerable. On the flip side of the coin, though, both enemies and bosses in these games can fuck you over just as easily if you get careless. And what I love about NGB again (and DMC1, as well as Bayonetta, and all of the other great hack n' slash games), is that enemies have A LOT of attacks that they can use per enemy type. Much more so than in other games. So the moment you get cocky and think that you know everything an enemy can possibly due to you, they may give you a rude awakening when all of a sudden their AI starts doing something different that you didn't expect. I don't think that I've ever played a platformer that does this to nearly the same extent, and as far as shooters go, the only ones that I can think of that do anything even close to this level of nuance are F.E.A.R. and Halo. So, yeah, needless to say, I love that about these games among all of the other things that I already love about them.
And finally....
1. The Replay Value is Off the Charts- Yes, I've played plenty of shooters and platformers and fighting games and puzzles games and even sports games with tons of replay value. I love them all. But none of them, and I repeat, none of them come even CLOSE to the replay value of Ninja Gaiden Black or Devil May Cry 3 for me, and even MGRR is once again proving to be insanely replayable with me on my 5th run through the game already, and I'm sure Bayonetta will follow suit once I finally own the game for myself. For me, a lot of this has to do with the harder difficulty settings, and what I get out of them on replays. No other games can do harder difficulties as well as these games do. I've gone over this before, but while most games will just make enemies a little it tougher in terms of taking damage you and the output of damage that they give to you, very few actually enhance the AI to make them both smarter and more aggressive. In games like Ninja Gaiden, Bayonetta, DMC, MGRR, and so forth, the enemies will start using a wider variety of attacks on harder difficulties. In Ninja Gaiden Black in particular, you'll even encounter enemies that never even appeared on Normal or Hard mode, and have to learn new strategies for them. Stuff like Doppleganger Ryu and Berserkers are among the few examples. You essentially have to prove yourself and EARN the right to fight those enemies, which is a great concept. As for the other games in the genre, they will also make harder enemies appear earlier on in the game on harder difficulties, changing up your strategies greatly. Meanwhile, NGB pulls another amazin feat by switching item locations up on you with each higher difficulty setting (and that goes from Normal to Hard to very Hard to Master Ninja mode, so that's across 4 different difficulty settings). A chest that contained a healing item on Normal mode may contain bats or ghost fish that jump out by surprise and attack you on Hard mode, but then it may be a ton of Essence (basically the game's form of currency) on Very Hard mode, and possibly even a weapon on Master Ninja mode (or probably just more ghost fish). It keeps you on your toes with each new difficulty setting and radically varies up the experience. At the same time, though, the game doesn't make you any weaker, so you have all of the same abilities at your disposal as before. You just have to increase your skill level to use them more efficiently and creatively when it comes to strategy. And in one particular example I love, MGRR actually makes your perfect parry insanely more powerful on Revengeance difficulty than on the lower difficulty settings. The catch is that, unless you have healing items equipped, you'll most likely die in one hit from any given enemy, but at the same time if you get good at timing your parries, you can just as easily kill them (or even a group of them at once) in just one hit, yourself (or in the case of bosses, you can cap off 60-70% of their health in a single, well-placed perfect parry). It's the ultimate risk/reward system. These are just a couple of examples of many, but the bottom line is that these games are chalked full of difference on their harder difficulties that will constantly keep you coming back for more.
So, yeah, while there certainly aren't enough games of these types that populate the genre, these core games alone make this genre one of the best ever. If we had more games like them, then I'd say that hack n' slash games would flat-out be the best genre in all of gaming for me, personally. I just wanted to highlight what I loved about these games in the first place. Feel free to share your thoughts on the subject.
Quote1. The Replay Value is Off the Charts- Yes, I've played plenty of shooters and platformers and fighting games and puzzles games and even sports games with tons of replay value. I love them all. But none of them, and I repeat, none of them come even CLOSE to the replay value of Ninja Gaiden Black or Devil May Cry 3 for me, and even MGRR is once again proving to be insanely replayable with me on my 5th run through the game already, and I'm sure Bayonetta will follow suit once I finally own the game for myself.
I understand that this is your opinion, and I respect it, but this is more of a glass half full type of thing. We're talking single player experience here. It'd be better if you take fighting games out of this argument altogether simply for the sake of fighting games aren't really meant to be played as a single player. Granted I understand that not everyone have access to online or wants to pay $50 a month for Live (definitely glad I own both), but the replay value in fighting games comes from training mode and fighting human opponents. You don't get that from fighting the CPU. In a sense the same can be said about FPS (but there's really no training needed for FPSs), but you'll find a lot more people caring more for the single player campaign in a FPS than you would a person looking for story mode in a fighting game.
Most of your reasons apply to why I like platformers (and action platformers) so much, though they are deliberately simplified compared to the combat systems of more recent genres.
Though that's partially me having problems getting my head around combat systems. I think Mega Man Zero is about as good as I've ever gotten with the genre.
Quote from: Grave on March 17, 2014, 08:14:23 PMI understand that this is your opinion, and I respect it, but this is more of a glass half full type of thing. We're talking single player experience here. It'd be better if you take fighting games out of this argument altogether simply for the sake of fighting games aren't really meant to be played as a single player.
I mentioned fighting games in the wrong context there, but the basic point I was trying to get at is that I just get more overall value out of hack n' slash games (the best of the bunch, anyways) on a personal level than I do out of those other games, single-player or otherwise. True, with fighting games it's more of a multiplayer thing, which I should have specifically mentioned, but while fighting games have great competitive multiplayer and deep combat and such, I do eventually get burned out on those before too long. I think that, at my core, I'm just very much influenced by the types of games that I played most since I was a kid, hence why I love adventure games. That said, I like fighting games for their combat, which no other games can really rival, but what I love about hack n' slash games is that they take a decent fraction of the depth that you would find in a fighting game (obviously not as much since you can't account for the actions between two intelligent human opponents who know the game well) and combine it with light but certainly fun elements of adventure games. That's just the type of game that feels like it's meant specifically for me, which is why I enjoy these types of games more than any other as a genre (well, like I said, almost, anyways; the thing holding it back is the lack of more games like NG, DMC, Bayonetta, etc.).
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 17, 2014, 08:17:44 PM
Most of your reasons apply to why I like platformers (and action platformers) so much, though they are deliberately simplified compared to the combat systems of more recent genres.
Though that's partially me having problems getting my head around combat systems. I think Mega Man Zero is about as good as I've ever gotten with the genre.
I do realize that the reasons I listed can apply to platformers and FPS games and games from other genres as well. What I suppose I was getting at was that, for me, that select group of really good hack n' slash games offer me all of those features in spades and in one single package, rather than just elements of those. Don't get me wrong, I love the Mario and Sonic and MMX and DKC games (as evidenced by some of those being among my top 25 favorite games ever made), with 3 of those, in fact, having been in my top 10 at some point in time (actually, if I redo my list, I think 3 of them in particular may still be there). It's just that the degree to which I experience those attributes in the sorts of hack n' slash games that I mentioned is hard for most games to compare to. I just wish more games in the genre would follow suit with those
As for the whole combat system thing, keep in mind, I completely and utterly suck at many of these games myself, when I first start them. My first play-through of every DMC game was a complete mess, but these games are clearly meant to be replayed, and it's on the replays that I finally find real value for them when the system starts to chime for me and I end up really understanding just how the game is meant to be played. I think it's all about investing time in and being rewarded for it by getting better at the game. Admittedly that isn't for everyone, but to be honest the best platformers and FPS games are sort of like that for me as well, so it's a gaming philosophy that I just really happen to agree with.
So, here's a good question. If you were to recommend any single game as a gateway into the hack n' slash genre to someone who's never played that kind of game before, what would it be?
I know a lot of people would probably say God of War. I haven't played enough of any GOW game to comment on that, myself, but it'd probably be the most simple to get into.
I got into the genre by playing NGB, myself, which technically wasn't my first foray into hack n' slash, but it was still among my earliest exposure to the genre. On that note, though, I had patience to get better at the game. The difficulty, while not nearly as bad as people make it out to be, could still conceivably scare off a lot of people until they manage to make it past the learning curve, which does take a while.
Now, on a level of accessibility, I'd say that Bayonetta is probably the best starter, if only because it's not so brutally difficult right from the start. But in terms of style, I could see how it may be overbearing for some people. Now, if someone wasn't shy to dated graphics and voice-acting, I'd say that DMC1 is a good place to start. The camera has it's issues and the game isn't perfect by any means, but it's short and to the point with little to no filler. It's challenging but not enough to scare off people (it's a pretty reasonable challenge, honestly). You'll die a few times at tough sections and enemies/bosses until you learn how to deal with them properly. Overall it's a very simple game, all things considered.
But I wasn't wondering what everyone else who's acclimated with the genre think about this.
It really depends on what they're looking for.
If they want something fast paced that makes you feel cool, I point them to DMC4 or Bayonetta, if they're looking for a bit more of a challenge, then I point to DMC3 or Metal Gear Rising.
If they want a simple brawler with a simple combat system for stress relief, then I direct them to GoW or Sengoku Basara (though that can fall under the former category too) and the Musou's, by extension.
If they want something more akin to an Action RPG that takes a while to beat, then Darksiders II and Kingdom Hearts are the games of choice, I believe Witch and the Hundred Knight falls under this category too, but I haven't seen enough gameplay to judge.
If they want something with a complex combat system, then they should get DMC, and Ninja Gaiden if they REALLY want a challenge.
So yeah, it really depends.
And if they want classic RE in the style of a hack n' slash game, they can either go with DMC1 or the Onimusha games (with the latter, it's if they especially want the RE experience, with tank controls included). :sly:
As for DMC3 and 4, I feel like the mechanics are a bit too complex for starters, even if they want the challenge. I didn't think about Darksiders II, but that's not a bad choice for people who want more of an action/RPG type experience.
In terms of more casual experiences, though, GOW or Bayonetta are probably the best places to start. I hesitate to recommend the DW type games if only because they highlight a very specific sub-set of hack n' slash games, and have very different tropes and sensibilities than the more adventure oriented ones that we usually like the most.
God of War 2 was my first hack 'n slash game. I think that's a really good starting point. It's easily the most well-paced and exciting entry in its respective series (IMO) and simple enough for newcomers while still being engaging. I also think Ninja Gaiden Black is fairly accessible outside of its notoriously high difficulty level. That was actually my second hack 'n slash game, and I did okay with it even then.
Honestly, I feel that critics and gamers alike have been a bit deceptive about NGB's difficulty, in that they make it out to be harder than it really is. To me, it really only just has a steeper learning curve than most other action games. If you get the hang of its mechanics, I think the game is mostly on a reasonable level of difficulty on Normal. There are plenty of healing items lying all over the game that you can pick up, so you shouldn't have to buy that many (I was actually always over-stocked on them when I replayed the game on Normal), and the game gives you the ability to save at any save point as much as you want, so if you're ever scared of having to redo a tough fight after completing it, just go back to the nearest save point and save your status (you can also completely skip any re-spawned enemies that show up along the way, so you don't have to fight them again, either).
Also, I will hold the personal opinion that this game holds the best level design out of any hack n' slash game that I've ever played. Personally, I also think that it's enemy and boss design is on par with the original DMC in terms of interesting mechanics and nuance. Of course, you don't have the criticals like DMC1 had, but as much as people like to flaunt that aspect of the game, I know for a fact that most players hardly ever use them since they aren't that exploitable.
DMC3 was my first Hack'n Slash, and I got through it just fine. Albeit, I knew a fair bit about its difficulty and whatnot.
Did you play Special Edition or the original version, first? And if you played Special Edition, did you initially play through Yellow Orb mode or Gold Orb mode? I know that the original version of the game defaulted you to Hard/Yellow Orb mode, making it ridiculously challenging for first time players.
Special Edition on Gold Orb mode. And I only knew about the difference because I watched footage of the game beforehand.
I dare you to try playing starting a new game from Hard mode in Yellow Orb mode to see how others originally experienced the game. :sly:
Actually, the funny thing is that I could probably do it without much difficulty, but that's only because I played the game so damn much. I did pass through it in Yellow Orb mode on. Normal, but I suspect doing it from scratch on Hard wouldn't be too much more difficult since it'd barely a step forward in difficulty from Normal. Hell, did you know that some people have even cleared the game doing a fresh no upgrade run on Dante Must Die mode, without using any items AND simultaneously S-ranking every mission in the game (needless to say, it's also on Yellow Orb mode). Now, that shit is insane, especially considering how I could barely clear that difficulty on Gold Orb mode with full upgrades while using plenty of items and mostly getting C and D-ranks on each mission.
Quote from: Foggle on May 29, 2014, 09:58:41 PM
God of War 2 was my first hack 'n slash game. I think that's a really good starting point. It's easily the most well-paced and exciting entry in its respective series (IMO) and simple enough for newcomers while still being engaging. I also think Ninja Gaiden Black is fairly accessible outside of its notoriously high difficulty level. That was actually my second hack 'n slash game, and I did okay with it even then.
What are you? 12?
Anyway, I can't think of a good starting point. Bayonetta is the easiest out of all the games I'd think to suggest but I think that game could be...offputting to others.
Quote from: gunswordfist on May 30, 2014, 02:07:47 AM
Quote from: Foggle on May 29, 2014, 09:58:41 PM
God of War 2 was my first hack 'n slash game. I think that's a really good starting point. It's easily the most well-paced and exciting entry in its respective series (IMO) and simple enough for newcomers while still being engaging. I also think Ninja Gaiden Black is fairly accessible outside of its notoriously high difficulty level. That was actually my second hack 'n slash game, and I did okay with it even then.
What are you? 12?
What? I was 13 when God of War 2 came out. I played Ninja Gaiden Black after I turned 14. Then I played DMC 1 and 3 immediately after. That was 2007.
:o
Quote from: Foggle on May 30, 2014, 02:14:56 AM
Quote from: gunswordfist on May 30, 2014, 02:07:47 AM
Quote from: Foggle on May 29, 2014, 09:58:41 PM
God of War 2 was my first hack 'n slash game. I think that's a really good starting point. It's easily the most well-paced and exciting entry in its respective series (IMO) and simple enough for newcomers while still being engaging. I also think Ninja Gaiden Black is fairly accessible outside of its notoriously high difficulty level. That was actually my second hack 'n slash game, and I did okay with it even then.
What are you? 12?
What? I was 13 when God of War 2 came out. I played Ninja Gaiden Black after I turned 14. Then I played DMC 1 and 3 immediately after. That was 2007.
Unfortunately, you seem to have played most of th best that the genre had to offer, so aside from Bayonetta and MGRR, and maybe NG2, it was all downhill from there. :humhumhum:
A new Afro Samurai game is in development (http://www.siliconera.com/2014/06/25/new-afro-samurai-game-development-pc-next-gen-consoles/)
If the developers were any smart, then this would have the potential to be a great DMC/MGR-style action game, Afro Samurai more than deserves such a game.
I think it would be well-suited to a Ninja Gaiden 2 style combat system, myself. That system is all about dismembering your enemies in swift and brutal fashion (it's also my personal favorite combat system ever).
So, I've been googling lists of the top 10 hack n' slash games to see what the general opinion is on this genre, and I've been thoroughly disappointed by most of what I've seen so far. Most of these lists rank games that have no business being on a list of hack n' slash games in the first place, and their choice of entries for the popular franchises are beyond bizarre. I mean, I've seen lists that rank games like NG3 and DmC as the representatives of their respective franchises. And of course God of War 3 seems to be at the top of most lists because it's the conclusion of a trilogy.
We need to reach a consensus on a definitive list based on opinions from people who actually understand this genre. I'm not a huge fan of lists and such, but I feel like it's baffling at how off the lists that do exist for this genre are. I feel like its a very misunderstood genre, in that regard.
A part of that reason may be the discrepancies between what people consider a "hack'n slash". I've seen a couple of them, for instance, that list games like Brutal Legend, or Warhammer 40k Space Marine on them, even though they're not hack'n slashes the way we would define them. And there are others that lump in Musou-style games with the likes of DMC/Bayonetta/Ninja Gaiden, while those games can be fun, they're in a completely different camp from the other 3 I just mentioned, and are more in line with beat'em ups.
Wait, Brutal Legend doesn't count? Why not? And what the fuck is a Musou?
BL may have hack'n slash elements, but it's also an RTS, and I believe the RTS-elements outweight the hack'n slash elements.
And Musou=Warriors-style games. i.e Dynasty Warriors, Samurai Warriors, Sengoku Basara, etc.
Yeah, Brutal Legend is more of a console RTS with lite hack n' slash elements.
I think that the DW and Musou games can count as hack n' slash games. They just aren't very good ones since they usually have lazy design and are pure button mashers.
I think that the games that the games that have enough elements to be considered hack n' slash games in the way that we know them, though, are stuff like Ninja Gaiden, DMC, Bayonetta, Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance, God of War, Darksiders, Genji, Dante's Inferno, Ninja Blade, and so on. Not all of those games are to my liking, but they contain enough combat to be considered part of the genre, and they each follow a set of tropes, such as having different weapons and moves, mostly featuring a linear level progression, giving you currency in the game for defeating enemies, and so on.
Quote from: Rynnec on July 18, 2014, 07:46:50 PM
BL may have hack'n slash elements, but it's also an RTS, and I believe the RTS-elements outweight the hack'n slash elements.
And Musou=Warriors-style games. i.e Dynasty Warriors, Samurai Warriors, Sengoku Basara, etc.
Oh yeah. I only played the demo so I forgot about the group gathering elements from the previews.
I've heard it said that the Holy Trinity of action games (specifically hack n' slash) are:
Bayonetta
Devil May Cry 3: Special Edition
Ninja Gaiden Black/Sigma
Some variants include DMC1 over 3 (which I can certainly understand), or NG2/S2 over NGB/S (which I can't understand, even though I do like the sequel). At any rate, do you agree or disagree?
From what I've played, I agree, though it's worth noting that I haven't played God Hand yet, and I've seen a variant that includes that game (however it excludes an NG game, which I can't agree with).
I'd pick DMC1 and then my list would remain the same. I need to replay Bayonetta so I can get all the secret weapons. I was trying to get these ice skates before I stopped.
I still say that if you took DMC1's enemies and bosses, combined it with Dante's DMC4 combat mechanics, and threw in all of his DMC3 weapons, it would be the best DMC game ever, and arguably even the best action game ever. One can only dream, though.
I've been going on forever about how DMC1 has the best enemies. That's why it's my favorite in the genre. I think I'd lose 10 pounds from playing too long if the game had Bloody Palace.
Yeah, it's a shame that the DMC game with the. Best enemy and boss design by far is ironically the only one without Bloody Palace mode.
hehe, yeah. That's the first thing I was hoping for with the HD update but all I hear they did was swap buttons and improve the graphics.
The HD ports are good enough where the games run as smoothly and efficiently as they did on the PS2, which is really all that you need. However, as ports, they are very lazy. All menus and most cutscenes are still left in SD because Capcom refuses to put any money into one of its best series.
It's no wonder that this company is up for sale. Their business management was horrible.
lmao. How are you going to keep the cutscenes in that kind of quality? Besides that, I actually don't mind but yes, Capcom is lazy.
So, in your opinions, which of the hack n' slash games that you've played did you find the hardest in terms of difficulty on your first run through?
Personally, I'd rank it like this:
1. Devil May Cry 3: Special Edition (mostly because I played it on Yellow Orb mode on my first run)
2. Ninja Gaiden II (even though I had played the hell out of NGB, this game still kicked my ass; though I did play it on the highest default setting, Warrior mode)
3. Ninja Gaiden Black (it was mostly the first few levels where I died a lot; but the game got easier as it progressed)
4. Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance (yeah, honestly it took me a while to get used to this game's mechanics, especially for parrying, so I died a lot on my first run)
5. Devil May Cry (not as hard as some people make it out to be, but still a reasonable challenge; though honestly I didn't die all that much compared to the other games)
6. Devil May Cry 4 (the most streamlined proper DMC game, so it was really easy, but since it was the first game in the series that I played in full, it was a little tough for me at parts, and the questionable check-pointing didn't help either)
7. Bayonetta (Pretty straightforward with lenient checkpointing, I honestly failed more on the QTEs than on actual combat)
8. DmC: Devil May Cry (pretty much the same as Bayonetta but without the QTEs, so it's even easier)
This list only counts the games that I like enough AND have played in full. I could have ranked Shinobi, but I was mainly focusing in the more combat oriented games in the genre, here. If I included other games that I've played, the list would look different. If we're talking about hardest difficulty settings, here, then I should note that DMC3 would still retain it's spot, followed by NG2 again, as DMD mode and MN mode are beyond ridiculous on those games, IMO.
Ninja Gaiden Black - Hands down the hardest.
Devil May Cry - It's a lot less forgiving than the other DMC's due to the high price on items and the lack of replayable levels.
Metal Gear Rising - This game was a bitch on my first playthrough
Devil May Cry 3: SE - Nowhere near as hard as people make it out to be. It had its difficult parts, but so long as you grind and know the locations of blue orb shards it's not that hard.
Bayonetta - I had some trouble with the dodging mechanic, and I still have problems with my timing (though that could be from my skills getting rusty)
Devil May Cry 4 - Learning Nero's playstyle was the highest difficulty curve
DmC
Quote from: Rynnec on July 27, 2014, 08:06:21 PM
Ninja Gaiden Black - Hands down the hardest.
Try NG2 vanilla on its highest default difficulty and you might change your mind. ;)
QuoteDevil May Cry - It's a lot less forgiving than the other DMC's due to the high price on items and the lack of replayable levels.
That's true, but the fact that the levels are usually less than 10 minutes long and that the guns are WAY more powerful in this game than in the sequels made it more manageable for me.
QuoteMetal Gear Rising - This game was a bitch on my first playthrough
As much as I love the game, it did a poor job of teaching the player it's most essential mechanics. I eventually got it down on my second playthrough, but my first time through was aggravating in some parts.
QuoteDevil May Cry 3: SE - Nowhere near as hard as people make it out to be. It had its difficult parts, but so long as you grind and know the locations of blue orb shards it's not that hard.
Well I think it depends on how you play the game. I actually didn't grind, and by nature I'm stubborn and severely limit my item usage, and in addition to Yellow Orb mode, I found this game to be the toughest DMC game. But, yeah, it's totally possible to get a lot of money and spam items, or at least get a lot of upgrades by grinding on the first 2 levels which are easy.
QuoteBayonetta - I had some trouble with the dodging mechanic, and I still have problems with my timing (though that could be from my skills getting rusty)
Did you ever buy the Bat Within technique upgrade? I found that it made the timing a little more lenient since even in the frame that you get hit, the technique will activate and it'll count as a dodge and you won't take any damage. It's really handy in Hard mode, especially.
QuoteDevil May Cry 4 - Learning Nero's playstyle was the highest difficulty curve
Oddly enough it was the other way around for me, but like I said, it was the first time that I had played a DMC game in full, so I never had that much experience with Dante, who in this game is far more complex to control than Nero.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on July 27, 2014, 08:21:17 PM
Quote from: Rynnec on July 27, 2014, 08:06:21 PM
Ninja Gaiden Black - Hands down the hardest.
Try NG2 vanilla on its highest default difficulty and you might change your mind. ;)
Oh how I wish I had a cheap 360
QuoteDevil May Cry - It's a lot less forgiving than the other DMC's due to the high price on items and the lack of replayable levels.
That's true, but the fact that the levels are usually less than 10 minutes long and that the guns are WAY more powerful in this game than in the sequels made it more manageable for me.[/quote]
I'm usually more of a melee guy, so as you can imagine, I got my ass kicked a lot in that game.
QuoteMetal Gear Rising - This game was a bitch on my first playthrough
As much as I love the game, it did a poor job of teaching the player it's most essential mechanics. I eventually got it down on my second playthrough, but my first time through was aggravating in some parts.[/quote]
It's very trial by fire, and the boss battles are basically tutorials in and of themselves.
QuoteDevil May Cry 3: SE - Nowhere near as hard as people make it out to be. It had its difficult parts, but so long as you grind and know the locations of blue orb shards it's not that hard.
Well I think it depends on how you play the game. I actually didn't grind, and by nature I'm stubborn and severely limit my item usage, and in addition to Yellow Orb mode, I found this game to be the toughest DMC game. But, yeah, it's totally possible to get a lot of money and spam items, or at least get a lot of upgrades by grinding on the first 2 levels which are easy.[/quote]
Missions 6 & 7 are also good for late game-grinding, and most of the bosses have very easy patterns to learn and are very balanced difficulty wise (except Gerya and Arkham, fuck them)
QuoteBayonetta - I had some trouble with the dodging mechanic, and I still have problems with my timing (though that could be from my skills getting rusty)
Did you ever buy the Bat Within technique upgrade? I found that it made the timing a little more lenient since even in the frame that you get hit, the technique will activate and it'll count as a dodge and you won't take any damage. It's really handy in Hard mode, especially.[/quote[
I did. It's a godsend, especially on the first playthrough
Another thing difficult about Bayo compared to other hack'n slashes is how mini-boss heavy it is. Levels like the fifth one are nothing but mini-boss encounters, and the enemies themselves become more prominent as you progress.
QuoteDevil May Cry 4 - Learning Nero's playstyle was the highest difficulty curve
Oddly enough it was the other way around for me, but like I said, it was the first time that I had played a DMC game in full, so I never had that much experience with Dante, who in this game is far more complex to control than Nero.
[/quote][/quote]
It was the second DMC game for me, by then I'd already played through 3 twice over, so controlling Dante felt like I was at home.
Quote from: Rynnec on July 27, 2014, 10:34:14 PMOh how I wish I had a cheap 360
Just to be clear, I still think that Sigma 2 is well worth playing. It's just a lot easier than the vanilla version, though to be fair the vanilla version could be cheap at times since the game was rushed and had some balance issues (but it's still mostly skill-based, and not that cheap until Master Ninja mode, so don't listen to the whiners). With NGS2, you may need to play it on Mentor mode to get a decent but reasonable challenge out of it.
QuoteAnother thing difficult about Bayo compared to other hack'n slashes is how mini-boss heavy it is. Levels like the fifth one are nothing but mini-boss encounters, and the enemies themselves become more prominent as you progress.
The mini-bosses go down really quickly, though, if you use powerful combos on them. If you can learn their attacks, they become easy to predict and you can get Witch Time off them easy enough. After that, just use the TTTTC combo (tap C repeatedly), and it absolutely shreds their health. For some mini-bosses, you can even kill them in one shot starting from a full health bar with one of these combos, and for most others it'll usually take out at least half of their health.
Really, the only mini-bosses that I still find particularly difficult at this point are Grace and Glory (or Gracious and Glorious), since they don't telegraph their attacks very well and have very subtle and easy to miss tells, so it's hard to evade them properly, and you also can't get Witch Time off of the Gracious and Glorious counterparts through the normal means of dodging.
After playing Bayonetta and giving it some thought, here are my tiers for games that I've played in this genre:
Top Tier (anyone who has the remotest of interest in this genre NEEDS to play these games):
Ninja Gaiden Black/Sigma
Devil May Cry
Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening/Special Edition
Bayonetta
Upper Middle Tier (flawed, unfinished, or somehow held back from their full potential, but still great):
Ninja Gaiden 2/Sigma 2
Ninja Gaiden: Dragon Sword
Devil May Cry 4
Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance
Shinobi (PS2)
Nightshade (PS2)
Onimusha 2 (PS2; I haven't played it in a LONG time, so it could just be nostalgia)
Middle Tier (fun games, but lacking the true inspired design and lasting value of the better ones):
Darksiders 2
DmC: Devil May Cry
Genji: Dawn of the Samurai
Lower Middle Tier (adequate games, and not godawful for the most part, but they get boring fast):
Ninja Gaiden 3: Razor's Edge
Ninja Blade
Dante's Inferno
The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers
The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King
Pretty much every Musou type game that I've tried
Darksiders (that might be harsh, but I found the game to be a drag, myself)
Low Tier (these games are just shit, really):
Ninja Gaiden 3
Devil May Cry 2
I decided not to rank the God of War games since, aside from my bias, I haven't ever actually played one in full, and it would be unfair to rank a game that I haven't at least completed most of one time through or more. This genre could really use some more great games, though, and there are still some that I really need to try.
I've been replaying DMC4 in my spare time, now that I've taken a break from Bayonetta since beating it on NSIC mode. I actually only got half-way through DMD mode on DMC4 back when I was playing the game. I stopped because I was kind of getting tired of the game at the time, but I'm coming back into it fresh. The only major problem with that is how with a game like this, if you haven't played it for years, you tend to have lost most of your skills and really need to warm up and practice to get proficient at necessary techniques again. For that reason I've been playing on Devil Hunter mode, but that's actually a bit too easy so I'll most likely switch to Son of Sparda mode pretty soon. I feel that I could probably just take on DMD mode as is, but I feel that getting my skills back up to snuff will help it go a lot smoother. With Dante, I'd really have no problem, but with Nero, I'm way out of practice, and playing with him again makes me realize just how drastically different his play style is.
Every evening after I finish studying I've been playing bits and pieces of the games that I own, and I finally got back around to trying NG2, and realized instantly why, despite its faults, it's a far better game than NG3/RE. Aside from being far more responsive, the combat system in NG2 is, for me, unrivaled in the genre. And, the thing is, it's not substantially deep in the same vein as a DMC game. It has nuance, but it's a completely different type of combat than any other game out there. Rather than racking up insane combos (which you can do, even if it's not practical), this game presents you with a mechanic where if you know how to use weapons and moves with a high chance of striking a critical against the right enemies, you will instantly dismember them 95% of the time. By doing that, you are put into a state where you can finish them off immediately. The thing is, enemies in this game can kill you almost instantly on the higher difficulties, but you can do the same thing to them, and when you get proficient enough you'll be taking down enemies extremely fast and proficiently, which to me is the most satisfying feeling that I've ever felt in any action game.
As for DMC games, they also have distinct combat that, for all intents and purposes, is the best you can find of that particular type of combat. The first game actually isn't very combo heavy like its sequels, and is actually remotely similar to the concept of NG2's combat, except instead of an OT system there is a specific way to critical each enemy, and knowing the right tactics to use on each can let you kill them quickly, but as with NG2, they can do the same thing to you.
The 3rd and 4th game reward you more for understanding certain techniques and how to exploit enemy patterns and capitalize on juggling them while not giving them much chance to recover and attack you back.
Bayonetta, strangely enough, is actually like a strange amalgam of elements that make up combat styles from both NG and DMC games, and is entirely it's own thing. At a glance it seems like more DMC, and partly because it's from the same creator, but it's really not. It's more about effectively utilizing dodges while relentlessly attacking enemies as much as possible.
As for NGB, it's sometimes misleadingly called a defensive game. While I understand the notion, it should be emphasized that it's a game where defense and maneuvering around enemy attacks is just as important as attacking enemies, and it's about knowing when to attack enemies, which IMO is another unique and interesting combat system that ironically seems to be the one that most games in the genre try to emulate, but most utterly fail at doing so, IMO.
I just brought this up because I often see people say that these games are all the same kind of stuff and assume that they are either button mashers or that they are for people with crazy amounts of skill. Neither is really true (unless you encounter people playing for rank, but that's a different story entirely). Honestly, to me, these games are about discovery and strategy. You experiment with different weapons and moves and learn about the enemies and bosses and you discover powerful attacks you can use, useful abilities to help you, and enemy and boss weaknesses to exploit, and the. You utilize strategic thinking to apply what you have learned and triumph. The best games in the genre basically have this concept in common, and it's a large part of why it's my favorite genre, and why the above mentioned games in particular are so damn replayable.
My recent post on the Zelda thread just made me realize this, but I would totally love a hack n' slash game with great combat (which goes without saying, obviously) AND great exploration elements. There should still be a clear path for progression through the game, so that it doesn't feel aimless, but it would be great to let you choose that path in the order that you want to take it, rather than progressing in a linear level-to-level arrangement. I'm actually kind of surprised that such a game hasn't been attempted by any of the top-tier developers for this genre, now that I think about it.
i have been thinking the same thing. especially if it was an action platformer. prince of persia reboot came the closest.
if you have xbox live gold on 360, tonight is the last night you can get darksiders 2 for free.
So I just purchased a PS3 game. A certain hack 'n slash game that may be related to a franchise I mentioned earlier today. It's certainly been recommended to me before and I have mentioned before that I'd like to play it. Now, I will say that I'm not going to get a chance to get to it within the next few weeks. However, having now bought it, I can say with certainty that, before long, it will finally be taken off my waiting list. ;)
lolipop chainsaw?
:joy:
A word of warning: while it's not as hard as others make it out to be, the beginning IS tough because you have to learn the ropes. Whenever you do start playing it, if you get stuck anywhere, don't hesitate to ask for some suggestions. That said, this game rewards experimentation, so if a certain strategy doesn't work for you, it diesn't hurt to try something new. ;)
Oh, and the story is practically non-existent, so I hope that's not a problem for you.
Quote from: gunswordfist on February 19, 2015, 09:06:06 PMlolipop chainsaw?
Of course not. Clearly he's referring to Genji: Days of the Blade. I mean, what OTHER great PS3 hack n' slash game could he possibly be talking about. :humhumhum:
DMC is not very good. You've wasted your money, Talon.
you accidentally capitalized the m, spirit. :sly:
Quote from: gunswordfist on February 19, 2015, 09:26:47 PM
you accidentally capitalized the m, spirit. :sly:
I never know the proper way to capitalize these stupid titles.
DmC is actually an OK game. It's fun in a casual sort of way.
It's a terrible DMC game, though.
Anyways, speaking of hack n' slash games, I'm surprised that Talon hasn't played MGRR yet, considering what a huge Metal Gear fan he is.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on February 19, 2015, 09:09:45 PM
:joy:
A word of warning: while it's not as hard as others make it out to be, the beginning IS tough because you have to learn the ropes. Whenever you do start playing it, if you get stuck anywhere, don't hesitate to ask for some suggestions. That said, this game rewards experimentation, so if a certain strategy doesn't work for you, it diesn't hurt to try something new. ;)
Oh, and the story is practically non-existent, so I hope that's not a problem for you.
Sure. I'll keep all that in mind when I finally get to Genji: Days of the Blade in the near future. :D
Nah, just kidding. I do admit that I'm looking forward to playing NG, and I have a feeling it'll lead me to try some other well regarded games of its genre. I imagine that I'm going to be bad at it when I start, but I promise I will push onward.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on February 19, 2015, 09:09:45 PMOh, and the story is practically non-existent, so I hope that's not a problem for you.
No problem. Story is a plus if its done well. But I am a Mario fan, after all. :thumbup:
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on February 19, 2015, 09:17:55 PM
DMC is not very good. You've wasted your money, Talon.
Oh geez, what have I done?
Also, on a side note, I plan on getting the DMC HD Collection.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on February 19, 2015, 09:36:52 PM
Anyways, speaking of hack n' slash games, I'm surprised that Talon hasn't played MGRR yet, considering what a huge Metal Gear fan he is.
I do want to play that one, too. However, I always wanted my entrance into the genre to be either Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry.
Part of what makes NG great is when the game feels like it got more manageable for you later on, but then you realize that it didn't get easier; you just got better. It's a truly rewarding feeling that few modern games can match.
Also, Fun Fact: The same team that made DMC1 (and I think RE2, or at least Kamiya also directed thst game) went on to become Platinum Games, and developed MGRR.
Anyways, as for DMC HD, whenever you finally get around to it, start with the first game, then play 3, and then by DMC4, and just pretend that DMC2 doesn't exist.
Play NGS, then DMC 1, 3, and 4, then MGR, then buy an Xbox 360 for NG2, then buy a Wii U for Bayonetta 1 and 2. ;)
I'll probably just settle for Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 when I get there. :sweat:
As for Bayonetta 1, that's on the PS3, right?
Quote from: talonmalon333 on February 20, 2015, 02:09:46 PM
I'll probably just settle for Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 when I get there. :sweat:
Okay, but from what I've played, it's incredibly inferior to the original, so you might not like it.
QuoteAs for Bayonetta 1, that's on the PS3, right?
Yes, but it's a pretty mediocre port, and Bayo1 comes bundled with 2 on the Wii U. So if you're going to get a U anyway, just wait to play Bayonetta until then.
Sigma 2 is fine. While I don't like most of its changes, it's still probably one of the best action games of its kind on the PS3, and for what it's worth, some of the hardcore NG fans actually prefer it. It is probably worth playing both versions of the game, since they're so different, though. As TS17 put it, there's a trade-off. The original version of the game has glaring balance issues that make the game hard and frustrating rather than fun, but that's only at certain points, and the rest of the game can be incredibly fun if you can look past the flaws. Sigma 2 removes much of the BS and is a more balanced game, yet in the process it also takes out a lot of what made NG2 great in the first place, so it never reaches the lows of NG2, but also fails to achieve the same high points.
Just stay the fuck away from NG3/RE and Yaiba: Ninja Gaiden Z. One is a mediocre and dreadfully boring snore-fest, and the other is probably one of the worst games of last year.
Bayonetta 1 is on the PS3, though from what I hear, it has some performance issues with frame-rate and abnormally long load times, but nothing gamebreaking, and still probably the best multiplatform action game available on either the PS3 or XBOX360, but the Wii-U has the best version of the game.
Quote from: Foggle on February 20, 2015, 02:16:46 PM
Okay, but from what I've played, it's incredibly inferior to the original, so you might not like it.
I mean, if I were to get a 360 for NG2, then I would have likely passed on the original Sigma and just got the XBox version as you guys seem to like that one more. :P
Quote from: Foggle on February 20, 2015, 02:16:46 PMYes, but it's a pretty mediocre port, and Bayo1 comes bundled with 2 on the Wii U. So if you're going to get a U anyway, just wait to play Bayonetta until then.
I imagine I'll get a Wii U around the time Zelda comes out, and I intend on getting Beyonetta 2 as well. If they are bundled together, then that's cool to hear. In a way, it's good knowing I have an excuse to put off that game, as there are a lot that I want to get to in the meantime. :P
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on February 20, 2015, 02:20:50 PM
Just stay the fuck away from NG3/RE and Yaiba: Ninja Gaiden Z. One is a mediocre and dreadfully boring snore-fest, and the other is probably one of the worst games of last year.
I'm not sure I've heard much about that game, Ninja Gaiden Z. From your description there, it sounds like you hate it even more than 3. :P
Putting my extreme personal bias aside, NG3 is a mediocre game in and of itself. I hate it, but I couldn't rightfully call it bad in the sense that it borders on unplayable. As for NGZ, though, it is legitimately terrible. The gameplay and difficulty are broken, and when it does work, the combat is incredibly monotonous and lacks the nuance and responsiveness of previous NG games.
One of the best YouTube channels dedicated to deconstructing game mechanics (besides GMTK) just did a video about Darksiders 2 (https://youtu.be/DU9EI1WIKUM), presenting the good ideas that it's combat has but why it ultimately doesn't work as well as the best games in the genre.
I thought I should link to this not only because I agree with him completely, but because I think it would also help other people understand the things that the best games in the genre do and why they work so well in the first place. Just like him, I do like this game despite its faults, and would actually like to see the new one expand upon its potential if possible. Unlike most other Western action games, Darksiders at least appeals to me in its interesting art design and environments, genuinely decent soundtrack, and unpretentious approach to a narrative. The problems lie in how it takes so many great ideas and inspirations, but fails to implement them in a focused way that works well together.
Really, this does a good job of explaining why Japanese action game design in general works much better than Western sensibilities for the character action genre. That's not me being a weaboo, either. I don't generally care what country a game comes from, but in this case the genre does a lot to showcase just how different the approach is based on the development's point of origin, and why in this particular case Japanese games more often than not tend to nail down the core fundamentals a lot better.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on May 22, 2017, 12:34:35 PM
Really, this does a good job of explaining why Japanese action game design in general works much better than Western sensibilities for the character action genre. That's not me being a weaboo, either. I don't generally care what country a game comes from, but in this case the genre does a lot to showcase just how different the approach is based on the development's point of origin, and why in this particular case Japanese games more often than not tend to nail down the core fundamentals a lot better.
I think in general the culture created within a country's gaming industry largely affects the end products its people make. It's the same reason French films feel different from Australian films and British music sounds different from Korean music. Independent games made by smaller teams are usually the ones that end up breaking the mold because they aren't overseen by a corporation and don't necessarily subscribe to any industry culture other than their own personal one. So I don't think it's necessarily a generalization or a case of idolizing someone else's country/culture - you just prefer the way Capcom and Platinum make character action games over the way Vigil and Sony do.
A 2D character action game called The Dishwasher: Vampire Smile just got ported to PC and it's absolutely amazing. Dead Samurai was one of my favorite Xbox 360 titles when it came out but I had no idea there was a sequel and I hadn't even thought about the original in years. I went back and finally beat it (I really sucked at the time and couldn't get past the halfway point) - an excellent first crack at the genre from a new developer, especially considering it was only made by a single person, but it got extremely frustrating at times and the presentation/content diversity were lacking. The sequel fixes every problem I had with the original (though, by comparison, the Normal difficulty setting feels way too easy) and is just a joy to play. I can definitely see myself cranking up the difficulty and doing a second playthrough right away. Probably the best American character action game I've played and certainly the best 2D one.
I still need to get the Dishwasher series.
The most relevant video ever made on the subject of gaming: https://youtu.be/dQoLeqjcg1U
In all seriousness, though, I 100% agree with this take on the "genre" of action games.