Hack n' Slash games

[gunswordfist]

BL may have hack'n slash elements, but it's also an RTS, and I believe the RTS-elements outweight the hack'n slash elements.

And Musou=Warriors-style games. i.e Dynasty Warriors, Samurai Warriors, Sengoku Basara, etc.

Oh yeah. I only played the demo so I forgot about the group gathering elements from the previews.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I've heard it said that the Holy Trinity of action games (specifically hack n' slash) are:

Bayonetta
Devil May Cry 3: Special Edition
Ninja Gaiden Black/Sigma

Some variants include DMC1 over 3 (which I can certainly understand), or NG2/S2 over NGB/S (which I can't understand, even though I do like the sequel). At any rate, do you agree or disagree?

From what I've played, I agree, though it's worth noting that I haven't played God Hand yet, and I've seen a variant that includes that game (however it excludes an NG game, which I can't agree with).

[gunswordfist]

I'd pick DMC1 and then my list would remain the same. I need to replay Bayonetta so I can get all the secret weapons. I was trying to get these ice skates before I stopped.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I still say that if you took DMC1's enemies and bosses, combined it with Dante's DMC4 combat mechanics, and threw in all of his DMC3 weapons, it would be the best DMC game ever, and arguably even the best action game ever. One can only dream, though.

[gunswordfist]

I've been going on forever about how DMC1 has the best enemies. That's why it's my favorite in the genre. I think I'd lose 10 pounds from playing too long if the game had Bloody Palace.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Yeah, it's a shame that the DMC game with the. Best enemy and boss design by far is ironically the only one without Bloody Palace mode.

[gunswordfist]

hehe, yeah. That's the first thing I was hoping for with the HD update but all I hear they did was swap buttons and improve the graphics.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

The HD ports are good enough where the games run as smoothly and efficiently as they did on the PS2, which is really all that you need. However, as ports, they are very lazy. All menus and most cutscenes are still left in SD because Capcom refuses to put any money into one of its best series.

It's no wonder that this company is up for sale. Their business management was horrible.

[gunswordfist]

lmao. How are you going to keep the cutscenes in that kind of quality? Besides that, I actually don't mind but yes, Capcom is lazy.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

So, in your opinions, which of the hack n' slash games that you've played did you find the hardest in terms of difficulty on your first run through?

Personally, I'd rank it like this:

1. Devil May Cry 3: Special Edition (mostly because I played it on Yellow Orb mode on my first run)

2. Ninja Gaiden II (even though I had played the hell out of NGB, this game still kicked my ass; though I did play it on the highest default setting, Warrior mode)

3. Ninja Gaiden Black (it was mostly the first few levels where I died a lot; but the game got easier as it progressed)

4. Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance (yeah, honestly it took me a while to get used to this game's mechanics, especially for parrying, so I died a lot on my first run)

5. Devil May Cry (not as hard as some people make it out to be, but still a reasonable challenge; though honestly I didn't die all that much compared to the other games)

6. Devil May Cry 4 (the most streamlined proper DMC game, so it was really easy, but since it was the first game in the series that I played in full, it was a little tough for me at parts, and the questionable check-pointing didn't help either)

7. Bayonetta (Pretty straightforward with lenient checkpointing, I honestly failed more on the QTEs than on actual combat)

8. DmC: Devil May Cry (pretty much the same as Bayonetta but without the QTEs, so it's even easier)

This list only counts the games that I like enough AND have played in full. I could have ranked Shinobi, but I was mainly focusing in the more combat oriented games in the genre, here. If I included other games that I've played, the list would look different. If we're talking about hardest difficulty settings, here, then I should note that DMC3 would still retain it's spot, followed by NG2 again, as DMD mode and MN mode are beyond ridiculous on those games, IMO.

[Rynnec]

Ninja Gaiden Black - Hands down the hardest.

Devil May Cry - It's a lot less forgiving than the other DMC's due to the high price on items and the lack of replayable levels.

Metal Gear Rising - This game was a bitch on my first playthrough

Devil May Cry 3: SE - Nowhere near as hard as people make it out to be. It had its difficult parts, but so long as you grind and know the locations of blue orb shards it's not that hard.

Bayonetta - I had some trouble with the dodging mechanic, and I still have problems with my timing (though that could be from my skills getting rusty)

Devil May Cry 4 - Learning Nero's playstyle was the highest difficulty curve

DmC

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Ninja Gaiden Black - Hands down the hardest.

Try NG2 vanilla on its highest default difficulty and you might change your mind.

Devil May Cry - It's a lot less forgiving than the other DMC's due to the high price on items and the lack of replayable levels.

That's true, but the fact that the levels are usually less than 10 minutes long and that the guns are WAY more powerful in this game than in the sequels made it more manageable for me.

Metal Gear Rising - This game was a bitch on my first playthrough

As much as I love the game, it did a poor job of teaching the player it's most essential mechanics. I eventually got it down on my second playthrough,  but my first time through was aggravating in some parts.

Devil May Cry 3: SE - Nowhere near as hard as people make it out to be. It had its difficult parts, but so long as you grind and know the locations of blue orb shards it's not that hard.

Well I think it depends on how you play the game. I actually didn't grind, and by nature I'm stubborn and severely limit my item usage, and in addition to Yellow Orb mode, I found this game to be the toughest DMC game. But, yeah, it's totally possible to get a lot of money and spam items, or at least get a lot of upgrades by grinding on the first 2 levels which are easy.

Bayonetta - I had some trouble with the dodging mechanic, and I still have problems with my timing (though that could be from my skills getting rusty)

Did you ever buy the Bat Within technique upgrade? I found that it made the timing a little more lenient since even in the frame that you get hit, the technique will activate and it'll count as a dodge and you won't take any damage. It's really handy in Hard mode, especially.

Devil May Cry 4 - Learning Nero's playstyle was the highest difficulty curve

Oddly enough it was the other way around for me, but like I said, it was the first time that I had played a DMC game in full, so I never had that much experience with Dante, who in this game is far more complex to control than Nero.

[Rynnec]

Ninja Gaiden Black - Hands down the hardest.

Try NG2 vanilla on its highest default difficulty and you might change your mind.

Oh how I wish I had a cheap 360

Devil May Cry - It's a lot less forgiving than the other DMC's due to the high price on items and the lack of replayable levels.

That's true, but the fact that the levels are usually less than 10 minutes long and that the guns are WAY more powerful in this game than in the sequels made it more manageable for me.[/quote]

I'm usually more of a melee guy, so as you can imagine, I got my ass kicked a lot in that game.

Metal Gear Rising - This game was a bitch on my first playthrough

As much as I love the game, it did a poor job of teaching the player it's most essential mechanics. I eventually got it down on my second playthrough,  but my first time through was aggravating in some parts.[/quote]

It's very trial by fire, and the boss battles are basically tutorials in and of themselves.

Devil May Cry 3: SE - Nowhere near as hard as people make it out to be. It had its difficult parts, but so long as you grind and know the locations of blue orb shards it's not that hard.

Well I think it depends on how you play the game. I actually didn't grind, and by nature I'm stubborn and severely limit my item usage, and in addition to Yellow Orb mode, I found this game to be the toughest DMC game. But, yeah, it's totally possible to get a lot of money and spam items, or at least get a lot of upgrades by grinding on the first 2 levels which are easy.[/quote]

Missions 6 & 7 are also good for late game-grinding, and most of the bosses have very easy patterns to learn and are very balanced difficulty wise (except Gerya and Arkham, fuck them)

Bayonetta - I had some trouble with the dodging mechanic, and I still have problems with my timing (though that could be from my skills getting rusty)

Did you ever buy the Bat Within technique upgrade? I found that it made the timing a little more lenient since even in the frame that you get hit, the technique will activate and it'll count as a dodge and you won't take any damage. It's really handy in Hard mode, especially.[/quote[

I did. It's a godsend, especially on the first playthrough

Another thing difficult about Bayo compared to other hack'n slashes is how mini-boss heavy it is. Levels like the fifth one are nothing but mini-boss encounters, and the enemies themselves become more prominent as you progress.

Devil May Cry 4 - Learning Nero's playstyle was the highest difficulty curve

Oddly enough it was the other way around for me, but like I said, it was the first time that I had played a DMC game in full, so I never had that much experience with Dante, who in this game is far more complex to control than Nero.
[/quote][/quote]

It was the second DMC game for me, by then I'd already played through 3 twice over, so controlling Dante felt like I was at home.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Oh how I wish I had a cheap 360

Just to be clear, I still think that Sigma 2 is well worth playing. It's just a lot easier than the vanilla version, though to be fair the vanilla version could be cheap at times since the game was rushed and had some balance issues (but it's still mostly skill-based, and not that cheap until Master Ninja mode, so don't listen to the whiners). With NGS2, you may need to play it on Mentor mode to get a decent but reasonable challenge out of it.

Another thing difficult about Bayo compared to other hack'n slashes is how mini-boss heavy it is. Levels like the fifth one are nothing but mini-boss encounters, and the enemies themselves become more prominent as you progress.

The mini-bosses go down really quickly, though, if you use powerful combos on them. If you can learn their attacks, they become easy to predict and you can get Witch Time off them easy enough. After that, just use the TTTTC combo (tap C repeatedly), and it absolutely shreds their health. For some mini-bosses, you can even kill them in one shot starting from a full health bar with one of these combos, and for most others it'll usually take out at least half of their health.

Really, the only mini-bosses that I still find particularly difficult at this point are Grace and Glory (or Gracious and Glorious), since they don't telegraph their attacks very well and have very subtle and easy to miss tells, so it's hard to evade them properly, and you also can't get Witch Time off of the Gracious and Glorious counterparts through the normal means of dodging.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

After playing Bayonetta and giving it some thought, here are my tiers for games that I've played in this genre:

Top Tier (anyone who has the remotest of interest in this genre NEEDS to play these games):
Ninja Gaiden Black/Sigma
Devil May Cry
Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening/Special Edition
Bayonetta

Upper Middle Tier (flawed, unfinished, or somehow held back from their full potential, but still great):
Ninja Gaiden 2/Sigma 2
Ninja Gaiden: Dragon Sword
Devil May Cry 4
Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance
Shinobi (PS2)
Nightshade (PS2)
Onimusha 2 (PS2; I haven't played it in a LONG time, so it could just be nostalgia)

Middle Tier (fun games, but lacking the true inspired design and lasting value of the better ones):
Darksiders 2
DmC: Devil May Cry
Genji: Dawn of the Samurai

Lower Middle Tier (adequate games, and not godawful for the most part, but they get boring fast):
Ninja Gaiden 3: Razor's Edge
Ninja Blade
Dante's Inferno
The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers
The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King
Pretty much every Musou type game that I've tried
Darksiders (that might be harsh, but I found the game to be a drag, myself)

Low Tier (these games are just shit, really):
Ninja Gaiden 3
Devil May Cry 2

I decided not to rank the God of War games since, aside from my bias, I haven't ever actually played one in full, and it would be unfair to rank a game that I haven't at least completed most of one time through or more. This genre could really use some more great games, though, and there are still some that I really need to try.