Alright, I just finished the show today. I heard that the ending was controversial, and now I can finally see why: because its not an actual freaking ending. Its the biggest tease I've ever seen in a TV show. You have Angel, Spike, Illyria, and a dying Gunn ready to take on an oncoming horde of tough demons (not to mention a fucking dragon) in a battle to the death (presumably their death, but somehow I doubt it'd work out with all of them dying there), and this is just after the heavy stuff of having Lorne turn on Lindsey and shoot him to death, as well as Wesley being offed himself after losing his own fight (which Illyria thankfully finished for him), and then....the episode just ends. On that note, I LOVE the episode itself. It feels like a great FIRST HALF of a what should have been a 2-part conclusion. But alas, that's the end of the show, which really sucks. On that note, though, I do know that the story continues in the comics. I don't know if they are any good, but while I did say that I found Buffy's ending to be fine and have no interest in the comics, I think I'd actually consider reading the Angel ones, just to see what happens next.
At any rate, as to whether I like this series or Buffy better, I find that each of them has their own set of strengths and weaknesses, and in all honesty I consider them to be pretty even for different reasons. I do suppose that Angel is a bit more up my alley in its tone and overall themes, though. At any rate, here are my ratings for the seasons of Angel:
Season 1 - 9/10
I really liked this season. Sure, the show was trying to find its footing, here, but most of the episodes were just well-done, and on the whole, this season was the most episodic in nature, whereas the rest of the series was heavily based on continuity. I found Doyle to be a great character, and it sucked that he was killed off so early in the series, but he helped make the first half of season 1 a great watch, while the second half brought in Wesley who quickly developed from being a bumbling idiot into a pretty sophisticated expert on demons and supernatural forces, in general. On the whole, this was a really strong start for the series.
Season 2 - 8/10
Like I said, I wasn't a fan of the Pylea stuff at the end, but almost everything else about the season was great, IMO. Also, Darla's inclusion to the plot in season 2 brought on some of the best story arcs in the show, IMO.
Season 3 - 10/10
The story was great here, from start to finish, and this season had some remarkably strong characterization. The addition of Holtz to the plot really brought on some interesting conflicts, and this is probably where Wesley's character had some of his most important character moments. Its definitely one of the high points of the show.
Season 4 - 4/10
I don't know if its just me, but while this season should have felt a lot stronger than it did, I just felt that it was far too crammed full of strange plots and some downright stupid sub-plots that it ended up being too convoluted for its own good. I loved the stuff involving Angelus, and Faith had a couple of good episodes in this season as well, but it didn't really have anything else going for it. Perhaps I may need to re-watch it to gain some appreciation for it, but as it stands, this was easily the weakest season for me. For what its worth, this was definitely the most ambitious season of the show, but in the end it just didn't feel like it was executed properly at all.
Season 5 - 10/10
If you can forgive the fact that this season doesn't actually have an ending, despite being the final season of the show, then I personally think its the best season in the entire series. Having Angel and company finally working for their greatest enemy is brilliant, especially with the angle that they think they can use Wolfram & Hart's resources to keep LA under control, and have a better grasp on the evil things going on around them, while deep down they know that they are just being used and kept under careful control by the Senior Partners, themselves. That of course its just the set-up, but what helps escalate this arc to new levels of awesomeness is, of course, Spike. His chemistry with the rest of the cast is amazing, but his chemistry with Angel especially is priceless. I only wish that he were on the team for longer than this. At any rate, this was easily my favorite season, in that it had all of the elements that made the show great, including great writing, characterization, drama, and humor. I just wish that it could've gotten one more episode to deliver the proper conclusion that it deserved.
I like this show. :)
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on August 20, 2013, 05:34:42 PM
I like this show. :)
I'm surprised to hear that, considering that I recall you saying that you didn't care for Joss Whedon's stuff, aside from maybe The Avengers. Then again, as a TV series its not like he's the only one who was involved with it, so a lot of props has to go to the other writers and directors who helped to make this show great.
At any rate, I'm glad to hear that you like it as well. :thumbup:
Joss Whedon has always been hit or miss for me. Never cared for Buffy, liked Angel. Didn't like Firefly, liked The Avengers. Didn't like how he killed two of my favorite comics with Exiles and Runaways... No, there's no upside to that, he just killed them.
But this show was very entertaining from beginning to end, and it's probably his most consistent work.
Personally, Firefly is still my favorite show of his, out of what I've seen so far, but its certainly not to everyone's liking.
Speaking of Joss Whedon's stuff, I should probably check out The Cabin in the Woods while its still on Netflix. I know he only produced it, but everyone still attaches his name to that. Despite mostly good reviews from the critics, I've heard really mixed things about that movie from everyone else, since Whedon-fans apparently think its great, while Whedon haters....well, you know, hate it. I might as well see it and form my own opinion on it.
Also, I'll check out Dollhouse pretty soon as well.
Oh, and getting back on the subject of Angel, I was wondering: since you liked the show, did you ever bother to check out any of the After The Fall comics? If so, are they any good? I kind of want to read them to find out what happens next in the story, yet I also want to avoid them if they suck, because then they'd sort of taint the series for me If I did read them and hated them.
No, unfortunately, I haven't read them. I think I was also waiting to hear if they were any good, but I guess they slipped my mind.
Maybe Avaitor? I'm pretty sure he saw Cabin In The Woods, too.
Well I'm pretty sure he wrote Cabin in the Woods. It's definitely worth checking out.
I haven't really been keeping up with the comics, though. I read the first couple of volumes of Buffy season 8 and liked them, but some of the turns I hear that happen later on turn me off from them (Xander and Dawn hooking up? Ew). I haven't really keeping up with season 9 or the Angel stuff so I can't say.
I just finished my rewatch of season 2, and yeesh, I still don't get the trip to Lorne's homeworld in the last few episodes. Not so much because they were bad eps, but the idea didn't fit with the storyline of the season much at all. I think it would have made for a fascinating beginning for the next season, but here, not so much.
I'll put my rewatch of Buffy and Angel on pause for now, though, since I still don't own season 6 of BtVS. I do have the third of Angel and the last of Buffy though, but I have other things to watch until I can fix my holes.
Doyle. :'(
Season 1 is remarkably strong so far. It's episodic like early Buffy, but I think Angel does it better with a razor-sharp focus. It probably also helps that my three favorite Buffy characters are the central characters here.
Really, Wesley?
I couldn't tell you why, I just find him really likeable. He has pretty good chemistry with Cordelia and Angel, too.
Well I love him on Angel (for the most part), but his Buffy run just never did much for me. That's why I was a little surprised. :P
Yeah, he was a bit of a bumbler, but I did at least find him funny in season 3 of Buffy. Plus, he clearly at least wanted to do the right thing, even if he didn't always know what that was or how to do it. So he had that.
He wasn't as charismatic as The Mayor or as psychotic as Faith, but he did carve a bit of a niche for himself in a season that was pretty overstuffed with good ideas.
At first I was a bit cold to Wesley on Angel because he was essentially a replacement for Doyle, who died way too early on the show for such an awesome character, IMO. That said, Wesley has by far the strongest character development in the entire series, IMO, and in retrospect he is one of my favorite characters on Angel.
As for the first season, despite being very episodic, I do like it quite a lot as it has a good number of memorable episodes. I think the first 3 seasons are very strong, in general. Then comes season 4, which I honestly can't stand save for a few good episodes. But the show closes up with season 5, which to me is like the perfect apology for season 4, and is arguably the strongest season of the show.
Wesley is also easily saved by Alexis Denisoff, who's a pretty fantastic actor. Sadly, I can't think of too many things I've seen him in besides Buffy/Angel and HIMYM.
*checks Wiki*
Okay, so besides some voice acting (including a couple of DCAU roles), he had a recurring role in Dollhouse and Grimm. I still haven't seen either show. I also need to see Whedon's Much Ado About Nothing. He was also The Other at the end of Avengers, which I wouldn't have been able to guess.
Wolfram & Hart is hardcore. Didn't see Lee going out like that.
Season 1 of Angel really is a strong one.
Yeah, season 1 is a strong start to the series. Season 2 is good as well, though has a rather anticlimactic finale. Buffy season 5 is the stronger of the 2 conjoining seasons, IMO. That said, the sister episodes from Angel and Buffy highlighting the history of the big 4 vampires (Angelus, Darla, Spike, and Drusilla) are easily the best episodes of each respective series for those seasons, IMO. You could make an argument for The Body from Buffy, but the character history type episodes are more re-watchable and more up my alley.
The episodic nature really works here. I think there was much more attention paid here than in Buffy season 4, I mean even the crossover episodes were far better here.
That said, so far it's as good as I remember it being.
Of the two seasons, I'd have to say that "The Body" and "The Gift" are the strongest for me. But I'll always say that Angel's mythology>him as a character.
I just finished my rewatch of Angel, so now I feel comfortable with making my rankings.
Season 1- 8/10
This is definitely a better first season than Buffy's, for the sake of being more confident alone. The writing is also consistently stronger than in most of Buffy's first season, and by the end, they really seemed to have got the basic ideas down. It also shares one of the perks of Buffy's first season, in that right away, the core dynamics of the main characters are handled well, with both the Doyle and Wesley halves of the season. But there's still the stench of beginner's weakness going on, with a couple of episodes that just don't work at all, and would only show up this early in a show's run. The lack of narrative structure compared to later seasons is also apparent, since for the most part, this feels like Whedon making a procedural. A way better procedural than most, but there were higher highs for the show to reach.
Season 2- 9/10
As someone who's never been especially fond of Darla, there's some fantastic stuff with her this season. But personally, I preferred it when Dru came back. ;) That said, it's here where Joss and crew nailed the show's core difference from Buffy- this is about the Buffyverse's mythology as a whole, from the days of Angelus to the present day evils and back, which is where the best episodes of the season come from. The season-long story of Darla's return is great, but I had to knock a point off for the last stretch of episodes. The Pylea arc is important for a couple of reasons, in that it tested out Lorne's potential as a part of the gang, and introduced Fred to the show, but it still comes out as filler to me, and almost kills the vibe of an otherwise fantastic season.
Season 3- 10/10
Meanwhile, this is an even better season in terms of plotting. My only real problems are the love triangles- Gru didn't really need to come back at all, and I never cared for Fred's decisions between Gunn and Wesley, but I'll get more into that next season. But the actual storyline becomes a bit rougher and more complex than Buffy usually gets to, with Holtz's vendetta hitting some major highs. Wesley's decision made near the end is another rough one that helps to sell this as a darker season than before. This might just be the best season of the whole show.
Season 4- 5/10
While this is definitely the worst of the whole show. The reveal of teenaged Connor was a good one last season, but he's kind of a terrible character here. His juggling of emotions towards Angel makes some sense, but it's a pain in the ass to actually watch. It gets even weirder when Cordelia becomes evil out of nowhere, with barely a logical explanation as to why she does. Then Jasmine happens, and... yeah, no. I also couldn't stand the love triangle that Fred had to deal with for most of the season, especially since it never truly felt that she had a reason to choose either Gunn or Wesley. That's another problem that I have with the show, and one of the reasons that I ultimately prefer Buffy- the Angel gang is not very good at doing melodrama at all. That is much better suited for the BtVS gang, although it definitely gets annoying there as well. The problem is, there's almost nothing but melodrama here. I gave this season a slightly better score than it may deserve since there are some very good episodes, and it does lead well into the next season, but it really is the weak link.
Season 5- 9/10
Maybe it deserves a perfect 10, maybe not. This used to be my favorite season, but a couple of episodes don't work as well as I remembered, or weren't very memorable at all to begin with. But when it's good, this is some of the best stuff that the show has to offer. It was a great decision to bring Spike and Harmony in, as well as to cut back from the heavier stories of the past few seasons to give the show a lighter balance ala some of Buffy's best. And in some ways, this feels like a more polished companion to the show's first season, which is a good thing. The addition of stories with Spike and Angel from way back, mixing in some with Angelus and others where he has a soul made for a good mixture. I'm also in favor of Illyria, since her appearance allowed for Amy Acker to show off her acting chops in a way that she never could as Fred. I would have liked another season, but at the same time, as a one-off victory lap, this is very satisfactional.
So yeah, I think that overall, I'm more of a Buffy fan, especially since I'll come out and say that the show's best characters came from BtVS. There are some things that Angel does better though, and at its best, it's downright essential to check out, which is why I'd absolutely recommend it.
I pretty much agree with your ratings for the most part, though season 5 is my personal favorite.
Season 3 was also excellent, though, so I have no qualms about that being your highest rated season of choice. Aside from the usual cliffhanger finale for each season of the series, this season was narratively very tight, and Holtz is by far the best villain on the show.
II think season 5 might be a 9.5 for me, actually. I really do like it, but I'm not sure if it's a perfect 10 for me.
But did you know that on the season retrospective for the fourth's DVD, Joss called it his favorite? And for the next set, he did a list of favorite episodes, and most of them came from then. I wonder if time has changed his opinion on that.
So far I can't really say I agree that Buffy does melodrama better since the only melodrama I've seen it succeed with has been involving Angel and the fourth season pretty much whiffed in every aspect- even Faith had a better appearance on Angel than she did on Buffy when she returned.
I guess I'll just have to accept the fact that Buffy is never going to fully sit well with me. I certainly like it more now than I did years ago, but I don't see it ever reaching favorite status.
Have you seen season 5 yet? Dawn is annoying as hell (though, to be fair, Angel has the equivalent of that character in Connor, so it doesn't get off easy either), but other than that I think it's a great season. I think season 6 is lopsided, but I really like season 7, so whil I wouldn't consider the show a favorite either, I'd say it's about on par with Angel. I'd put Angel above it if it weren't for the catastrophe that was season 4, but unfortunately that actually happened and we have to live with it.
I'm still at the beginning of season 5. I was sort of derailed this week, but I'll get back to it soon enough.
Comparing Buffy and Angel by timeline, I tend to look at them like this:
Buffy season 4 < Angel season 1
Buffy season 5 > Angel season 2
Buffy season 6 < Angel season 3
Buffy season 7 > Angel season 4
So yeah, they are about on par, IMO. Even if you brought Angel season 5 into the argument, which aired after Buffy had ended, I'd have to bring in seasons 2 and 3 of Buffy to be fair, which would basically make that argument moot. I think both are on the same level of quality as each other in the grand scheme of things. They are both uneven shows, to be honest, but for me their good seasons far outweigh their bad ones, for the most part. That said, neither is a personal favorite of mine. I mean, they aren't Breaking Bad or Game of Thrones level good in terms of writing and acting, but as they stand they are still both important and memorable series that I now have a lot of fun memories of.
That's about how I'd rank them, and to be fair, Angel has a better first and last season than Buffy, but Angel never really matched the highs of seasons 2 and 3, as well as "The Body", "The Gift", "Restless", "Once More, With Feeling", "Conversations With Dead People" etc did. I end up preferring Buffy, but Angel has some major benefits itself.
As for the melodrama on both shows, I can't really defend Buffy's too much, but since it is meant to take place for a slightly younger time of age than Angel does, I do feel that it makes a little more sense for it to be relationship heavy, and there are times when it works. When this happens on Angel, I just can't say that I care at all. I already mentioned Fred's history with Wesley and Gunn, but I forgot about Angel and Cordelia's will they/won't they ordeal, which almost ended up as nothing, despite how long it lasted. But it's true, just because someone is better at doing something than another person, that doesn't mean that they're great at it.
Wow, season 2 was great.
There was a lot of world-building, good character moments, and pretty much every episode kept me engaged. Gunn showed his stuff and makes a great combination with the others, and Lorne also comes off really well. The massacre at the party killing everyone short of Lilah and Lindsey, Drusilla showing up, and all the back story (which was also welcome in Buffy season 5) were especially highlights here. I also liked since Wesley get a chance to shine as the boss, and Cordelia dealing with her power getting thrown out of whack, Kate being fired from the force, a lot happened in this season. Not to mention Lindsey finally snapping after Darla abandoned him and Wolfram & Hart used him as a guinea pig, and Angel's plummet into despair before being saved by the very thing that almost killed everyone in Buffy season 2.
The finale was alright overall, but seeing as it was fairly successful at what it was attempting I can't hate it. So far, the show is exactly as good as I remember it being.
The finale was fine for what it was, but as a finale, it felt weak and out of left field. The rest of the season was great, though. They took a really shallow villain from the first season of Buffy, gave her a sympathetic backstory, and made her a much more interesting and complex antagonist for Angel.
Also, Wesley's character development is one of the best things about this show, and he definitely got tons of development in this season (and will continue to keep on changing until he develops into his full persona in season 4), which makes him one of my favorite characters (and one of the only things that I enjoyed about season 4, as well).
And of course, let's not forget Lorne. I mean, who doesn't love Lorne?
Here is a list of my top 10 favorite episodes. I will do the same for Buffy later after some re-watches. No elaborate explanations, here, but feel free to ask about any of my choices. That said, I'm simply just listing what I enjoy the most from this series in re-watches:
10. Not Fade Away (5-22)
9. You're Welcome (5-12)
8. Orpheus (4-15)
7. Redefinition (2-11)
6. The Girl in Question (5-20)
5. I Will Remember You (1-08)
4. Sleep Tight (3-16)
3. Darla (2-07)
2. Hero (1-09)
1. Smile Time (5-14)
I really do like your list, EK, but mine would have to look like-
10- Sleep Tight
9- Orpheus
8- I Will Remember You
7- Are You Now or Have You Ever Been
6- A Hole in the World
5- Five by Five/Sanctuary
4- The Girl in Question
3- Lullaby
2- Smile Time
1- Not Fade Away
And an honorable mention to "Apocalypse, Nowish", for being mostly great until that awful end. But yeah, I guess that season 5 is my favorite, after all, since almost half of my list is from it.
Awesome list! And shit....I totally forgot about your #7 choice. Now that I think about it, I'd probably replace Redefinition with that episode, although I really do love that one as well.
We agree on 4 other choices as well. Here's what I think of each of those episodes:
Spoiler
10. We both have this on our list, and for good reason, it's excellent. Wesley's "betrayal" of Angel is one of the most pivotal moments of the show, and what's more shocking is that as viewers, we are actually in support of Wesley because he's legitimately trying to do the right thing, even if he is ultimately being fooled into doing something that he shouldn't. It really drives a wrench between the entire team, and leads to much darker times to come. It's excellent from both a story-telling and character standpoint.
9. Aside from cameos from both Faith and Willow, it's a great look into Angel's history during his time with a soul, but before he met Buffy.
8. As one of Buffy's only direct appearances on the show, it's fantastic, and it's a good send off to the. Buffy and Angel relationship, which is cut off here for good.
7. An episode that I can't believe that I forgot about, but it's excellent as a look into a time when Angel, even with a soul, had no faith in humanity. It's a great contrast to see how far he managed to come as a character.
6. While not a personal favorite of mine, it's still a heartbreaking sendoff to Fred and a great transition and introduction to Illyria.
5. A great two-parter that delivers on Angel's offer to help Faith way back in Buffy season 3, as he's able to understand what she's going through, and really wants to help her achieve redemption. It's also great to see Buffy back one more time for her second and last appearance in this series.
4. An absolutely hilarious episode showcasing the amazing chemistry between Spike and Angel. And of course I can't forget to mention the hilarious cameo from good old Andrew! This is also a personal favorite of mine. I especially love the flashbacks and present day bits where they get jealous of The Immortal for stealing their women.
3. This one almost made my list but just missed it, but man that last scene in the episode is amazing. It also cemented Holtz as my favorite villain in the series, besides Angelus himself.
2. Well, of course! :sly:
1. Also on my list, albeit in the last spot, but we both agree that it's an excellent finale to the series. It's divisive, because a lot of people hate that it ends on a cliffhanger, but as Whedon said, that's kind of the point if the show, that the fight is never done, so it really fits for this series thematically. And one can't ignore that everything up until that iconic last shot is simply amazing. I'd say that it arguably came off stronger than even Buffy's finale, which also made my list for that series. It's definitely one of the best, in my eyes, and as final episodes go, really managed to nail representing what this series was always about.
Hey EK, I hope you don't mind if I post my responses outside of spoilers. It'll make it easier to keep up with the convo, so let's just hope that only people who've seen the show read this. So CartoonX or whoever else wants to get into the show but haven't, skip this. ;)
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on October 11, 2014, 12:32:25 AM
Spoiler
10. We both have this on our list, and for good reason, it's excellent. Wesley's "betrayal" of Angel is one of the most pivotal moments of the show, and what's more shocking is that as viewers, we are actually in support of Wesley because he's legitimately trying to do the wrong thing, even if he is ultimately being fooled into doing something that he shouldn't. It really drives a wrench between the entire team, and leads to much darker times to come. It's excellent from both a story-telling and character standpoint.
Oh man, I hate how everyone else sided against Wesley, even when they claimed that they didn't want to. Obviously, we know why they did, but it's infuriating to watch when it seems like Wesley's so clearly in the right... although, maybe he wasn't.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on October 11, 2014, 12:32:25 AM
Spoiler
7. An episode that I can't believe that I forgot about, but it's excellent as a look into a time when Angel, even with a soul, had no faith in humanity. It's a great contrast to see how far he managed to come as a character.
Not only is it a great character episode for Angel, but I love the atmosphere behind it. Clearly, we're better off now then from the 50's in terms of social issues, but it's still a fascinating era to me. It's also a little unusual for the show, since usually Angel's flashbacks come before he had a soul, and thus take place during older periods. This and "Orpheus" are obvious exceptions, though.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on October 11, 2014, 12:32:25 AM
Spoiler
6. While not a personal favorite of mine, it's still a heartbreaking sendoff to Fred and a great transition and introduction to Illyria.
Yeah, I've mentioned this before, but I'm not much of a fan of the Fred and Wesley pairing, but I buy it completely in this one episode. Alexis Denisof and Amy Acker's performances are unbelievable throughout, and yes, this does lead into the introduction of Illyria, which I think is a much better character for Acker in terms of acting.
I do think that it would be higher if I was a bigger fan of Fred or her relationship with Wesley, though. I know for people who really do like both, this is easily among their favorites.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on October 11, 2014, 12:32:25 AMSpoiler
5. A great two-parter that delivers on Angel's offer to help Faith way back in Buffy season 3, as he's able to understand what she's going through, and really wants to help her achieve redemption. It's also great to see Buffy back one more time for her second and last appearance in this series.
I swear it's a coincidence that my favorite season 1 episodes are the ones with Buffy, but these really are great pieces for the show. But on your list, "Hero" was a hell of a send-off for Doyle, and would certainly make my top 20.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on October 11, 2014, 12:32:25 AMSpoiler
4. An absolutely hilarious episode showcasing the amazing chemistry between Spike and Angel. And of course I can't forget to mention the hilarious cameo from good old Andrew! This is also a personal favorite of mine. I especially love the flashbacks and present day bits where they get jealous of The Immortal for steeling their women.
Not only is it funny, but I think this is a great way to close Angel and Spike's infatuation with Buffy, at least for the series (I think that Spike and Buffy do get together in the comics, but don't test me on that). I think the reason that Buffy and the boys needed to go their separate ways is that Buffy is mortal, while Angel and Spike aren't. She has a life to live and grow from, but they're basically done.
It is for the best that she moves on, and they picked the perfect time to add a story like this to the season, before the finale arc, but late enough in the run to make sure that not only does the episode have enough poignancy to pull the episode off, but to ensure that Angel and Spike have enough chemistry to make everything work. Which is another thing, although we know that Spike and Angel have a history with each other, I don't think that David Boreanaz and James Marsters ever felt especially close during their time together until we hit the last season of Angel. By then, they had more than enough time to hone their craft and pull off their potential as diametrically opposed partners.
While I'm happy with the finale, I would have liked to have seen more time with Angel and Spike together. Ah well.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on October 11, 2014, 12:32:25 AMSpoiler
3. This one almost made my list but just missed it, but man that last scene in the episode is amazing. It also cemented Holtz as my favorite villain in the series, besides Angelus himself.
There couldn't have been a better way to end Darla's story than with her redemption. That early season three arc was incredibly well done.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on October 11, 2014, 12:32:25 AMSpoiler
1. Also on my list, albeit in the last spot, but we both agree that it's an excellent finale to the series. It's divisive, because a lot of people hate that it ends on a cliffhanger, but as Whedon said, that's kind of the point if the show, that the fight is never done, so it really fits for this series thematically. And one can't ignore that everything up until that iconic last shot is simply amazing. I'd say that it arguably came off stronger than even Buffy's finale, which also made my list for that series. It's definitely one of the best, in my eyes, and as final episodes go, really managed to nail representing what this series was always about.
I think "Not Fade Away" is the best series finale I've seen (although The Mary Tyler Moore Show's might tie with it, or at least win for a comedy series. Also keep in mind that I was halfway through season 4 of Six Feet Under when I last saw it, so I haven't seen its iconic finale yet). But yeah, a concise ending wouldn't have worked for the show. Angel has many more asses to kick, so it's fine to let the show end with a slightly incomplete note. The show also doesn't slow down too much to let us say goodbye to everyone, keeping a fast pace throughout while allowing each character to have a memorable send-off in their own way. And holy shit, Lorne!
That was fun! I think I'll do something similar to your Buffy list. ;)
10. I just realized my typo, but I meant to say that as viewers, we realize that he was legitimately trying to do the "right" thing, but it looks like you got the intent of what I said, regardless. ;)
7. I absolutely love that in this series, we finally got to learn more about Angel's 100 years with a soul before meeting Buffy. As interesting as Angelus is, Angel is just as fascinating in his character history where he was actually himself.
4. God do I wish we could've gotten at least one more season out of this show, just so we could fully explore the dynamics between this pair of guys who could never get along, yet who have so much in common in very odd ways.
3. Yeah, Darla sacrificing herself like that was a great way to pay off all of her character development in the show, and it's especially great seeing as how she began as just a minor lackey of a villain in Buffy's first season. But what also really got me is Holtz's reaction to the situation. He can kill Angel right there, but when he sees Angel cradling his son in his arms, he lowers his crossbow. Some might think that he's showing sympathy for the innocent child which is partly true, but at the same moment, he has instantly contemplated how to truly take his revenge in "Angelus," by breaking Angel and forcing him to lose his family, the same thing that Angelus out on him. It just makes Holtz such a fascinating villain.
1. Yeah, it was truly a climactic conclusion in every way possible. I weep for Wesley every time, but Illyria avenging him is priceless. And that last shit of them standing in the rain ready to fight a horse of demons and a fucking dragon to the death is one of the most iconic scenes in all of television for me. That said, I'd probably pick either Breaking Bad or Monk as my personal favorite TV finales.
Oh, and as for the Wesley and Fred thing, I wasn't really a fan of it either, but at least it always made more sense than Angel and Cordelia. God am I glad that the writers never went completely through with that relationship. As for Wesley, though, I must admit that I kind of enjoyed his relationship with Lilah. It wasn't romantic, but it was still fun because of their chemistry, which was one of the few good things about season 4, and it was also pretty humorous since Wesley was going through his lone wolf bad ass phase since he'd been kicked off of the team after kidnapping Connor.