I have a mouthful to say:
Superman has better comics than Batman. From what I read, Superman has more high level stories (All-Star, Red Son, Birthright, Secret Identity, etc.) while a lot of Batman's most recommended books are mid-level (Long Halloween and Dark Victory).
Frank Miller rocks
Geoffrey Johns Flash sucks
Emerald Twilight>Rebirth
Justice is the greatest JLA book.
I'm assuming that the Super-Man All-Star comic book is miles better than its animated adaptation that was released direct to video, because that felt too jumbled and all over the place and lacked coherency. I figure that the comic itself would be good though since most of those stories that were only touched upon in the animated movie were probably told in full (as they should be) in the comic.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on August 11, 2012, 12:58:39 PM
I'm assuming that the Super-Man All-Star comic book is miles better than its animated adaptation that was released direct to video, because that felt too jumbled and all over the place and lacked coherency. I figure that the comic itself would be good though since most of those stories that were only touched upon in the animated movie were probably told in full (as they should be) in the comic.
I hear that's about right. All-Star is the greatest Superman story ever.
The sad thing is, not only was All-Star Superman Dwayne McDuffie's last completed script, it was apparently the one he was proudest of in his entire career.
It really isn't that good. The comics weren't very tight on story, and it just could not translate to screen. Just stick to them.
I see what you mean. I'll have to still watch the movie myself.
Moar:
Two-Face>Joker.
Dwayne McDuffie has done some some terrific writing for the various DC animated projects, specifically with the stuff he did for the DCAU, but I personally would have to say that I found Superman All-Stars to be one o his weaker works.
I really wish that we did a "best of" of McDuffie's animated work on the blog when he passed on. It's a little late now, plus I might need to be a little more familiar with his Ben 10 work to really make it complete.
Jesus, no the mentioning of Ben 10 for ANY reason.
Hey, I say its never too late to honor a great writer. I wouldn't mind watching through some Ben 10 if he has done good work on it. Or to make it simpler we can limit it to his best work for DC's animated features. It could be a list of the top 5-10 episodes that he had written for throughout the entire DCAU.
He was the story editor for Alien Force and I believe Ultimate Alien before his untimely death. I'd want to open it up to his animated work in general, since all he really did outside of DC stuff is Ben 10, and he did more than just the DCAU when it comes to their work. It wouldn't be as fair to limit his work to just one side in that regard.
In that case it wouldn't be too hard to watch the episodes of Ben 10 that he worked on for the sake of honoring his best work, as long as his work on Ben 10 was about as good as his DC work.
Agreed. I'd love to read that.
Honestly, I tried to get into Alien Force when I found out that McDuffie was on it. I didn't like the original since I thought that Ben and Gwen were too obnoxious, the action was disappointingly fluff, and the writing was too toyetic for its own good.
I couldn't get into AF either, this time because Ben, Gwen and Kevin were just so bland as characters that I miss when they were younger and acted like little bitches to each other. The other problems still remained, but now there was this darker aspect lingering on really that did nothing to the series itself.
Maybe there's some good stuff and I jumped the gun too soon, but I dunno.
I'm not sure if this is really an unpopular opinion, but I have to say that I really can't stand the structure of mainstream superhero comics. What I mean is that they make it so damn hard for most of them to be accessible to newcomers. For instance, over the 60+ years that Marvel has been producing comics, they have come out with so many different iterations of most of their superheroes, and any one single popular superhero that you pick out seems to have at least a few completely different canons to go by. I mean, thankfully the classic stuff is easy enough to get into with Essential collections and whatnot, but other than that there's just so much stuff to wade through to really get into the Marvel Universe as a whole (and there are multiple Marvel Universe's, as well). I'm not singling out Marvel in general, but just using that as an example.
I suppose I've just been spoiled by reading manga for all these years. Say what you want about manga, but if manga in general has anything going for it, I feel that its really easily accessible. Most series have continuous story-lines that go in a completely chronological order by a chapter structure. Also, while cross-overs can be a fun thing, I feel like there are so many cross-overs in comic books that it can be hard to keep track of things. That is to say, even if you are reading Spider-Man in chronological order of issues, you'll still miss things if they happened as a cross-over as part of another superhero series in the same Universe featuring Spider-Man. With manga, since there are no cross-overs to begin with (except those non-canon specials that they run in WSJ on rare occasions, like the Dragon Ball and One Piece crossover), you are pretty much guaranteed a coherent story from beginning to end.
Don't mistake my post, though. I'm not putting down the quality of good mainstream superhero comics. I'm just saying that the structure of their releases and general serialization leaves much to be desired for those not already in the loop about them, IMO.
I agree with you. The comic industry is incredibly hard to get into, which is why the mainstream hasn't cared about the major company's work since the 90's. And there is a hell of a lot to try to play catch-up with.
The good thing about the Essential books is that they add in exactly what the books offer- the Essential stories. You get all of the mainline comics and annuals, as well as the crossovers that mattered. If you want to get into Spider-Man, you've got about 10 or 11 Essentials to read so far for Amazing, a handful of Spectaculars, and I believe they're also starting Web of now too. Again, easier stuff.
Yeah, I'm really greatful for the Essential collection. If it weren't for that, I'd pretty much be missing out on a history of great work.
After I finish reading all of the volumes that my friend has (which is the first 5), I'll see if I can order the rest online, myself.
Also, I'm considering hitting up either Essential Thor or Essential Captain America. While I have a lot of interest in the Captain America, I may go for Thor since he's getting a movie next year. I've already read Extremis, so that covers my main reading in preparation for the next Iron Man movie. ;)
The first Essential Captain America and Thor boks contain a LOT of stories, since they started out in anthology books as 10-12 page stories before evolving into their own series. So yeah, you get a big bang for your buck.
I knew that about Captain America, but didn't realize that about Thor. That's interesting.
BTW, I just felt like mentioning this, but I've always loved that infamous cover of the first issue of Captain America, where it features him directly punching out Hitler in front of a group of Nazis. That's one of the most bad-ass covers I've seen for such an old-school comic.
The graphic novel format is the optimum format of comic book reading. Single issues are a dying art, which almost every major comic publisher is too blind to notice.
Superman is an interesting character with a layered personality that happens to be misunderstood by the majority of fandom.
J Michael Straczynski has become a hack.
Neither Alan Moore nor DC are right when it comes to the Before Watchmen debacle. DC is obviously trying to milk a story as much as they can out of its monetary potentital, while Moore is a hypocrite who sees fit to judge others for things he himself has committed.
League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is just a self-congratulatory romp about how Victorian literature is awesome and how modern entertainment is pure shite. What could've been a fascinating reconstruction of public domain fiction becomes ruined by telling instead of showing, obscure references up its own ass, and snide remarks on recent culture that serve to be nothing other than an old man ranting about what he can't comprehend.
The Marvel universe is just as unrealistic, if not more so, than the DCU.
I don't think any of this stuff involving Comixology will save comics from obscurity. The only thing that will is to release comics as free material in the same way webcomics do, but try telling that to an executive.
I'm pretty neutral to the New 52. It's gotten some good titles like Batman, Swamp Thing, and Animal Man, as well as some shit like Suicide Squad and Red Hood. Really, it's no different from what we had two years ago.
The comics industry is probably one of the most conservative entertainment corporations in recent memory. Even in this day and age, it treats having gay characters or women of color in prominent roles as a massive surprise.
The Ultimate Universe was a superb idea destroyed by bad writers.
Planetary has been the best fucking thing to come out of comics in over ten years. All other books absolutely pale in comparison.
Image has been consistently better at delivering great stories than either Marvel and DC in recent time.
It frankly sucks how superheroes and comics have become united in the eyes of the public. It's the equivalent of TV being nothing but cop shows.
Stan Lee was a hack who claimed Kirby and Ditko's ideas for his own. In fact, it was only recently that creator rights have managed to move a step forward in terms of honoring and properly paying the writers and artists instead of turning it into a petty work-for-hire job.
In fact, if Jack Kirby's reincarnated, he's probably out there drawing webcomics instead of bothering with this hopeless monopoly.
The comics of yesteryear are no better than the ones now.
Garth Ennis is probably right about superheroes, all things considered.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on August 11, 2012, 07:26:17 PM
I'm not sure if this is really an unpopular opinion, but I have to say that I really can't stand the structure of mainstream superhero comics. What I mean is that they make it so damn hard for most of them to be accessible to newcomers. For instance, over the 60+ years that Marvel has been producing comics, they have come out with so many different iterations of most of their superheroes, and any one single popular superhero that you pick out seems to have at least a few completely different canons to go by. I mean, thankfully the classic stuff is easy enough to get into with Essential collections and whatnot, but other than that there's just so much stuff to wade through to really get into the Marvel Universe as a whole (and there are multiple Marvel Universe's, as well). I'm not singling out Marvel in general, but just using that as an example.
I suppose I've just been spoiled by reading manga for all these years. Say what you want about manga, but if manga in general has anything going for it, I feel that its really easily accessible. Most series have continuous story-lines that go in a completely chronological order by a chapter structure. Also, while cross-overs can be a fun thing, I feel like there are so many cross-overs in comic books that it can be hard to keep track of things. That is to say, even if you are reading Spider-Man in chronological order of issues, you'll still miss things if they happened as a cross-over as part of another superhero series in the same Universe featuring Spider-Man. With manga, since there are no cross-overs to begin with (except those non-canon specials that they run in WSJ on rare occasions, like the Dragon Ball and One Piece crossover), you are pretty much guaranteed a coherent story from beginning to end.
Don't mistake my post, though. I'm not putting down the quality of good mainstream superhero comics. I'm just saying that the structure of their releases and general serialization leaves much to be desired for those not already in the loop about them, IMO.
I agree. Crossovers make things messy. I always go by recommended collections but sometimes they are missing parts due to crossover. Hush Returns had no freaking ending in the book due to that. Sounds like manga does something right.
I don't know if we're allowed to include manga in this thread, but since I read that, I have to say this unpopular opinion of mine:
A majority of modern shonen manga just plane sucks. It has become popular to say that the modern stuff is good and people like me can't see that the classics weren't anything special and are just blinded by nostalgia. The thing is, I'm not blinded. I can tell when I think writing is plane good or plane bad. Even taking Bleach out of the equation, stuff like Naruto, Fairy Tail, Beelzebub, and God knows what else is considered popular these days just sucks, and those series are handled by obviously inexperienced and untalented authors. There, I said it.
Dragon Ball is a terrific series. Contrary to popular belief by people who have only seen the anime and think that they automatically know everything that there is to know about Toriyama, Dragon Ball was never the cliche smash-fest that everyone seems to think it is. It always had a sense of humor and anyone who has actually bothered to read it can see how Toriyama downright mocked a ton of the shitty cliches that plagued manga story-telling long before DB was ever written into existence. That, and it does a terrific job of being funny when its a comedy, and it does a fine job of being entertaining when its meant to be a bit more serious. It was meant to just be a fun series and that's what it is. It never gets bogged down by Toriyama thinking that he has developed his characters into something deep and unique (which is what Kishimoto has been doing with Naruto), and he always sticks to writing what he knows that he's actually capable of writing.
Something like Yu Yu Hakusho is good because despite being a standard shonen on the outset, it has characters that are actually likable and Togashi is one of the few shonen mangaka who actually knows how to write interesting villains.
Modern battle shonen suck simply because most of their writers just plane suck. Sorry, but that's just the way it is in my eyes.
Oh, also, I'm just going to contradict what I just said and say that while Togashi is definitely the best mangaka that I have read in all of shonen, he's really overrated and I despise at least 90% of his fan-base (which is mostly made up of HXH fans, in particular, so its really that fan-base that I despise). Togashi writes interesting stuff for that series, but its far from flawless, but if you so much as point out any problem with HXH from its plots to its needless cruelty towards characters, some dumb-ass will find some fucking stupid way to say that Togashi's an eccentric writer and that if you don't like some aspect of HXH you just can't take non-mainstream style story-telling.
Personally, I say bad writing is bad writing, and when Togashi writes some part of his story badly, I'm going to call it out. I do still like HXH as a whole, but I'm also willing to admit that it has a huge stretch of problems, and the people who aren't willing to accept any of those problems are just blind fanboys who shouldn't be taken serious.
There, I have finished my nonsensical ramblings for the evening. My appreciation to anyone who wasted their time reading all of that junk I just wrote out.
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on August 11, 2012, 08:15:24 PM
Planetary has been the best fucking thing to come out of comics in over ten years. All other books absolutely pale in comparison.
Image has been consistently better at delivering great stories than either Marvel and DC in recent time.
Love Planetary. Thanks again for the recommendation. I'll add in my unpopular opinion and say 100 Bullets is the best comic book series ever.
That's probably true about Image. Of course The Walking Dead is my favorite ongoing series, Invincible is good and I loved what I read from Dynamo 5. There's probably more too. Also, did Marvel really kill off it's cosmicverse like I heard. Annihilation is the greatest modern anything they've ever done. There was no pettiness or sillyness that plagues Marvel's Earth comics.
And EK, please tell me you are on a cell phone..or a plane because there's no way anyone can make that typo so many times in a row. :wth:
This is coming from the dumb-fuck who can't spell for his life? :-\
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on August 11, 2012, 09:16:22 PM
-post-
I think a large part of the mediocrity found in most modern shounen can be blamed on how...pandering it is to certain audiences. Think about it, aside from a handful of works like Fairy Tail and Negima, a great amount of shounen these days have casts full of bishounen characters and yaoi overtones to pander to the Fujoshi audience, while at the same time giving them cool, "badass" powers to appeal to the proper demographic. (KHR is a big offender of this). While this isn't bad in and of itself, the problem is that said characters tend to be incredibly bland and generic, but that's okay because of ""OMG SO HAWT" "TEH YAOIZ!!" or "zOMG SO BADAZZ!". While I can't be entirely opposed to the idea without being very hypocritical (because honestly, if there were more shounen with casts full of kickass pretty girls and yuri overtones, I know I wouldn't complain about them at all), I can see why others would be.
Ironically, this trend got its start with Yu Yu Hakusho and Rurouni Kenshin. Two of the most well regarded Battle Shounen.
I don't mind so much that they go for those sort of character designs. I've grown used to it, if anything. But its like you said, they make the characters so damn bland. There's nothing interesting about them, and if they aren't already following every cliche in the book, the author is too busy using the character to pander to some idiotic fan fetish to actually bother giving them some decent and serious characterization. I think the most frustrating thing is that people in Japan are obviously aware of this but nobody seems to care that much. Having read the manga Bakuman, the authors of that actively pointed out what made a good shonen series, and its funny because it really rings a lot of truth to it, especially when you consider how lacking most modern shonen series are in the elements pointed out by Bakuman.
Its frustrating for me because I grew up with quite a lot of shonen manga and anime. If I had grown up with more superhero shows and comics then I wouldn't be so pissed at the state of modern shonen because I wouldn't care about it so much, but as someone who actually does like a good shonen series, I suppose it just annoys me that the genre is severely suffering from what I consider to be a general lack of effort. Of course that's just my opinion, and I'm sure that there are exceptions to the rule (which I haven't read because I haven't found any, yet, unfortunately), but I'd really love for some new blood to come in as far as mangaka go, and I want to see some really exciting new shonen series.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on August 12, 2012, 03:14:45 AM
This is coming from the dumb-fuck who can't spell for his life? :-\
I just plane don't get you.
Quote from: gunswordfist on August 12, 2012, 10:18:37 AM
I just plane don't get you.
I wouldn't expect you to. You're peanut-sized, mindless-action-loving brain can't comprehend any intelligent form of communication. :thumbup:
Oh good, I kept my post plane and simple enough to the point where even a sub-human like you can understand me. .3.
Play nicely, both of you! Or else I'll get the clamps...
Shouldn't it be "plain"? "Plane" refers to either an airplane or a geometry term.
Quote from: Comeau on August 12, 2012, 01:19:49 PM
Shouldn't it be "plain"? "Plane" refers to either an airplane or a geometry term.
Maybe it's mocking EK's accusation that he can't spell.
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on August 12, 2012, 01:23:50 PM
Maybe it's mocking EK's accusation that he can't spell.
Or maybe he's just ass-retarded. Just throwing that crazy theory out there....
Quote from: Comeau on August 12, 2012, 01:19:49 PM
Shouldn't it be "plain"? "Plane" refers to either an airplane or a geometry term.
You summed up EK's stupidity with just a few words. :thumbup:
Back on topic: Birthright is Superman's 2nd best comic book and better than Red Son.
Quote from: gunswordfist on August 12, 2012, 06:47:26 PM
Quote from: Comeau on August 12, 2012, 01:19:49 PM
Shouldn't it be "plain"? "Plane" refers to either an airplane or a geometry term.
You summed up EK's stupidity with just a few words. :thumbup:
Quote from: gunswordfist on August 12, 2012, 10:18:37 AM
I just plane don't get you.
You were saying....:>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB-wmOYelnM
This is too sad guys. EK doesn't know when he's clearly being mocked.
:burn: Anyway, more on topic:
Emma Frost isn't all that good of a character.
Spider-Woman sucks.
Hawkgirl (DCUA version) is the greatest superheroine of all time.
Wonder Woman is BBBBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGG!
Quote from: gunswordfist on August 12, 2012, 06:57:38 PM
This is too sad guys. EK doesn't know when he's clearly being mocked.
That cover-up would probably work if it wasn't a well-established fact that you are stupid beyond belief. You've always been pretty hopeless, though.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on August 12, 2012, 07:00:31 PM
Quote from: gunswordfist on August 12, 2012, 06:57:38 PM
This is too sad guys. EK doesn't know when he's clearly being mocked.
That cover-up would probably work if it wasn't a well-established fact that you are stupid beyond belief. You've always been pretty hopeless, though.
Looks like someone didn't get medicine hidden in their apple sauce today. :blush:
Now you're just desperate to scrounge up a comeback, aren't you? Its so pathetic of you that its almost cute. :sly:
Cute?! :shit:
Well, given your general level of intelligence, I always assumed that you couldn't be more than 5 years old.
Then I would be a genius. Thanks. :D
Quote from: gunswordfist on August 12, 2012, 08:15:54 PM
Then I would be a genius. Thanks. :D
Not quite. You do actually make most children seem like geniuses compared to you, though, so there's always that fact if it makes you feel any better. ;)
First you say that I'm smart as a kid..then you contradict yourself by saying I'm dumber then one. You can't even keep up with your own simple insults. That's just plane sad. :light:
Actually I've clearly stated that you were an idiot in just about every post of mine. I guess you're too stupid to read as well. We'll just add that to the list of basic things that you can't do. ;)
And now you have trouble reading your own posts. Go back and read every time you've said idiot and see how it's not just about every post. I'll wait. :sly:
There's more than one way to say you're an idiot, shit-for-brains.
No, there's only one way to say idiot, idiot.
Quote from: gunswordfist on August 12, 2012, 09:15:31 PM
No, there's only one way to say idiot, idiot.
That is by far the worst come-back you have come up with so far. Thanks for yet again digging your own grave, dick-wad. :>
Quote from: gunswordfist on August 12, 2012, 06:57:38 PM
Wonder Woman is BBBBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGG!
Pretty sure this is a fact. Even Joss Whedon gave up on doing a draft for a movie on her.
If Gail Simone can't do a good job with you, you're probably doomed as far as characterization goes.
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on August 11, 2012, 08:15:24 PM
The graphic novel format is the optimum format of comic book reading. Single issues are a dying art, which almost every major comic publisher is too blind to notice.
It frankly sucks how superheroes and comics have become united in the eyes of the public. It's the equivalent of TV being nothing but cop shows.
I agree wholeheartedly, especially on the later point. Broaden your horizons, people (people in general, not necessarily you guys).
To contribute to this thread:
Quite frankly, I think
Watchmen is overrated. Is it a great comic that anyone should read at least once in their life? Yes. Is it the greatest comic ever made and the ultimate proof that comics can be "real" literature? No. To be honest, I wouldn't even say it's Moore's greatest comic, although it's probably the one that's the most easily accessible to new readers.
Speaking of which, it kinda bugs me that some people seem to regard comics as a sort of sub-medium to novels. Personally, I don't think any medium is really superior to the other, ultimately it's the quality of the individual work that should have the final say.
As an avid reader of Franco-Belgian comics since childhood, I must admit that I generally prefer
Blake & Mortimer over
Tintin.
^^I agree. The comic books as a medium is fine, it's just that how people use it can lead to all the problems.
Speaking of Wonder Woman:
She was her best ever in her recent animated movie. I'd read a comic if it had a version of her that's that good.
Even Cyclops haters can enjoy his time in Whedon's Astonishing X-Men.
Flash is boring in everything except Superman/Justice League/JLU TAS. Based off of what I've seen/read anyway. Funny enough, he seems to be very dead serious in every comic I've read with him in and is pretty dull in Justice League New Frontier and even what I've seen of him (one episode, his first I believe. The one with Zoom) in Batman The Brave & The Bold. He was OK in Crisis On Two Earths but that animated movie was partially from a scrapped script of a season of Justice League after JLU so he's basically the same character there. I'm referring to his personally and not his feats. You'd have to be completely stupid not to be impressed by those.
Quote from: gunswordfist on August 13, 2012, 02:09:40 PM
Speaking of Wonder Woman:
She was her best ever in her recent animated movie. I'd read a comic if it had a version of her that's that good.
Even Cyclops haters can enjoy his time in Whedon's Astonishing X-Men.
I agree with these two. Astonishing X-Men gave Scott some much-needed balls. Otherwise, he's one of the biggest dicks in comicdom, along with Reed Richards.
Heh, Reed "I fixed it for you." Richards. :sly:
I mean, Linkara nailed it with all of the problems of Peter Parker as a character, but that's more just bad writing than anything. At least he doesn't constantly put down MJ due to her sex or married and impregnated a woman just because she looked like Gwen Stacy, just to leave her when she came back to life.
It is absolutely in my nature to be that snobby douche who despises superheroes and wishes for comics to be about real issues like child sex trafficking or Vietnam War crimes perpetrated and celebrated by the US... but I love Batman too much! :drool:
Jack Kirby should be considered one of the top 10 best comic book creators of all time just because of New Gods. If that's not enough then him co-creating Captain America should cement that. This is really about Kirby not getting enough credit as a creator. I've seen people laugh that idea off and just consider him that Spider-Man artist. And NO, this has nothing to do with controversy.
Well, he is. Nearly every comic writer worth his shit knows about Kirby, and it's hard to find someone in an English-speaking country that hasn't heard of one of his characters. Problem is, they're under the idea that they're Stan Lee's.
*takes deep breath*
Spider-Man, Batman and Wolverine are probably the most overrated superheroes of all time. They're all good, but are they really so much cooler than all of the other superheroes out there?
I like Ms. Marvel, but If Ms. Marvel gets to appear in a big budget movie before Wonder Woman, then there's something seriously wrong with the world.
I think the Fantastic Four are cooler than Batman. Don't laugh. Yeah, they're goofy and silly, Reed Richards is kind of a douche, and it's stupid how with all the super-science and technology the team has at their disposal, not to mention how they regularly interact with gods, aliens, wizards and whatnot, there still isn't anybody who can figure out a way to permanently change the Thing back into Ben Grimm, but I just find their stories more interesting.
Batman to me is the most interesting when he's teamed up with another DC hero. Alone and in his own mythos I find him kind of dull.
Everything Linkara said about One More Day hit the nail right on the head.
I hate secret identities. There I said it. Usually whenever I say that, I get a lecture about how necessary SIs are, how these heroes need to keep their loved ones safe and blah blah blah, I understand that and I'm not debating that, but that doesn't mean I have to like them. I've never liked secrets in fiction; I can't stand characters who have/own/can do something really cool, but have to keep it a secret from everybody and spend half their time making lame excuses and trying to cover their tracks; it always reminds me of those cheesy 60's sitcoms like Bewitched and I Dream of Jeannie. My favorite heroes were always the ones like Iron Man, the Fantastic Four or even the Powerpuff Girls who live off their celebrity status and don't bother with secret identities.
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 24, 2012, 10:02:50 AMProblem is, they're under the idea that they're Stan Lee's.
Dammit, I said no controversy :burn:
I personally think that Warren Ellis wrote the best iteration of the Fantastic Four... even though it wasn't in a Marvel book.
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 24, 2012, 11:09:38 AM
I personally think that Warren Ellis wrote the best iteration of the Fantastic Four... even though it wasn't in a Marvel book.
The Four or Planetary?
Quote from: gunswordfist on September 24, 2012, 11:17:49 AM
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 24, 2012, 11:09:38 AM
I personally think that Warren Ellis wrote the best iteration of the Fantastic Four... even though it wasn't in a Marvel book.
The Four or Planetary?
Yes.
Ok. I want a Planetary sequel.
Quote from: gunswordfist on September 24, 2012, 11:23:48 AM
Ok. I want a Planetary sequel.
Warren Ellis doesn't want to do one. :??:
Some have said that The Incredibles is the best possible Fantastic Four movie that could ever have been made.
Whoever said that was correct.
If that's seriously the best possible version of the Fantastic Four, then I can safely say that I flat-out don't like the FF. :D
Quote from: Avaitor on September 24, 2012, 12:23:18 PM
Some have said that The Incredibles is the best possible Fantastic Four movie that could ever have been made.
Whoever said that was correct.
I thought you and Foggle thought it was boring.
Quote from: gunswordfist on September 24, 2012, 12:31:34 PM
Quote from: Avaitor on September 24, 2012, 12:23:18 PM
Some have said that The Incredibles is the best possible Fantastic Four movie that could ever have been made.
Whoever said that was correct.
I thought you and Foggle thought it was boring.
Nope, you're thinking about EK.
I wish they made Incredibles 2. So obvious.
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on September 24, 2012, 12:28:01 PM
If that's seriously the best possible version of the Fantastic Four, then I can safely say that I flat-out don't like the FF. :D
But, Planetary...
Quote from: gunswordfist on September 24, 2012, 12:46:23 PM
I wish they made Incredibles 2. So obvious.
The
Incredibles comic book series was a good example of what a sequel might have been like.
And at the same time, it embodies the main hangup to making a sequel to
The Incredibles. The original film dealt with deeper issues like family, marriage, isolation, being ostracized from society just for being a certain way, the dark side of hero worship, etc. The books were well done, but now that the Supers are no longer shunned and the Parrs are back in business, the franchise became just another superhero comic. Without the deeper, darker undertones that the first movie had, any
Incredibles sequel would be Just Another Superhero Movie.
Well it's Pixar and Brad Bird we're talking about here. They can easily find darker subject matter to tackle if Bird ever decides to make a sequel.
Or they can stick more to the fun super hero side and make a prequel movie consisting of older adventures with Mr. Incredible, Elastigirl or Frozone. If done right, that can be a lot of fun too.
"Run-of-the-mill Superhero fare" or not, Incredibles 2 is still a far better idea than Nemo 2.
I get the feeling at this point it'll never happen though, so whatever.
Nemo 2? Are you kidding me? The first film wrapped up perfectly.
Anyway, Incredibles 2 should be the family going through a period of having the supers being accepted by society again. After they successfully help make that movement happen with some villain thrown in during that storyline then they should leave the franchise alone.
Quote from: gunswordfist on September 24, 2012, 02:31:10 PM
Nemo 2? Are you kidding me? The first film wrapped up perfectly.
You haven't heard, I take it. (http://www.hollywood.com/news/Ellen_DeGeneres_Finding_Nemo_2/37608423)
Quote from: Kiddington on September 24, 2012, 02:06:29 PM
"Run-of-the-mill Superhero fare" or not, Incredibles 2 is still a far better idea than Nemo 2.
I get the feeling at this point it'll never happen though, so whatever.
Definitely co-signed on that. I don't even know why Pixar is doing a 2nd
Finding Nemo. The 1st film told a finite story which was wrapped up. Superheroes are at least expected to go on multiple adventures during their careers; what's going to happen in
Nemo 2? Is Marlin going to lose his son and embark on the adventure of a lifetime to find him...
again? How many life changing journeys is a fish supposed to go through??
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 24, 2012, 12:52:22 PM
Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on September 24, 2012, 12:28:01 PM
If that's seriously the best possible version of the Fantastic Four, then I can safely say that I flat-out don't like the FF. :D
But, Planetary...
I actually do like The Incredibles more than The Four. Besides the one character that they actually showed backstory on, the rest were just creepy villains that barely talked. I do like this one character more than all The Incredibles besides Mr. Incredible though.
You know, I'd like to think that the reason Peter Parker hasn't really seemed to grow up is to make a statement, that no one, super heroic or other wise, is perfect, and even someone with as high of an IQ as Parker can make a lot of mistakes when put under mass amounts of stress. Spider-Man has always been about the loss and despair behind the mask, and while a lot of the best stories hold true to this mantra, even the worst Spidey tales are meant to show us that ignorance lies in all of us.
But no, Spider-Man still acts like a high schooler due to weak writing and generalizing.
I'm still waiting for that Spider-Man story where Peter is old... and the story happens to be good.
I wanna see the story where it's revealed that Aunt May becomes all of Spidey's villains to relieve Peter of his boredom.
And it'll be written by Neil Gaiman.
Seriously, just because Gaiman wrote one gag about Alfred being the Joker, now everyone's nutters over it.
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m91c5eZbU01rna9n3o2_400.png&hash=8747957e07f3205767748c55c3a96480bcf9e8a1)
Could be worse. Could be that.
Why do we fall, sir?
I believe that fandom in and of itself has crippled the comic medium's ability to advance in society. And not just fans of superhero comics. You have fans of Carl Barks and Don Rosa who lodge them into their own little obscure pedestal while refusing to associate with the more mainstream works such as Ducktales, thereby cutting off the chance for newcomers to be even interested in the Donald Duck comics. It would be a mere shame if it was just fans, but these people have entrenched themselves into the very industry. It is almost impossible to find a writer in comics who is interested in the fundamental aspects of the medium and not just because they get the chance of writing their favorite character. I think Warren Ellis said it best when talking about how the American comics movement has essentially been a series of people writing characters they grew up with, which will eventually foster writers who will write comics merely because of some fanaticism towards DC and Marvel, and so on and so on.
I found this today: http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/artisticneedham/jack-kirbys-creations-list/75-15680/ (http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/artisticneedham/jack-kirbys-creations-list/75-15680/)
I don't know how accurate the list is and some characters he just had a hand in creating their original design but either way :o
I hate it when supervillains find out about a hero's secret identity.
I disagree with the idea that comics are too dark. Most of them are blood-drenched, nihilistic, and full of doodads that would barely pass primetime television, but that's not dark. That's trying to be dark and only succeeding at having as much depth as a Silver Age comic. Really, comics nowadays are too light in grit when you look between the lines. The latest Bendis offering might be gritty, but it's certainly not mature.
Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on January 30, 2013, 12:38:07 PM
I disagree with the idea that comics are too dark. Most of them are blood-drenched, nihilistic, and full of doodads that would barely pass primetime television, but that's not dark. That's trying to be dark and only succeeding at having as much depth as a Silver Age comic. Really, comics nowadays are too light in grit when you look between the lines. The latest Bendis offering might be gritty, but it's certainly not mature.
That kind of style is something that turns me off from a lot of stuff in general. There are a tone of works from manga and anime to comics, shows, and movies that try to come off as mature by just painting a gritty look over their shallow and uninspired stories, without actually bothering to feature any of the substance and depth that truly makes a mature story.
Well, mature and dark/gritty are two different things.
People need to stop acting like Bill Finger is Batman's only creator. I swear I thought Bob Kane peeked over Finger's shoulder, saw his written down ideas and then ran to DC to cash in or something by the way people eliminate Kane's input on making the character. Yes Finger perhaps came up with like 99% of Batman original iteration but Bob Kane had the original idea for Batman before Finger helped him. So both should be considered the co-creators. People acting like Kane deserves no credit aren't any better than anyone who ignores Finger's contributions.
Quote from: gunswordfist on January 30, 2013, 12:58:05 PM
People need to stop acting like Bill Finger is Batman's only creator. I swear I thought Bob Kane peeked over Finger's shoulder, saw his written down ideas and then ran to DC to cash in or something by the way people eliminate Kane's input on making the character. Yes Finger perhaps came up with like 99% of Batman original iteration but Bob Kane had the original idea for Batman before Finger helped him. So both should be considered the co-creators. People acting like Kane deserves no credit aren't any better than anyone who ignores Finger's contributions.
I second this. I always hate it when one guy gets all the fame while the other guy doesn't.
Quote from: Graywulf on January 30, 2013, 01:51:34 PM
Quote from: gunswordfist on January 30, 2013, 12:58:05 PM
People need to stop acting like Bill Finger is Batman's only creator. I swear I thought Bob Kane peeked over Finger's shoulder, saw his written down ideas and then ran to DC to cash in or something by the way people eliminate Kane's input on making the character. Yes Finger perhaps came up with like 99% of Batman original iteration but Bob Kane had the original idea for Batman before Finger helped him. So both should be considered the co-creators. People acting like Kane deserves no credit aren't any better than anyone who ignores Finger's contributions.
I second this. I always hate it when one guy gets all the fame while the other guy doesn't.
Me too. Funny how people's way of acknowledging Finger getting cheated out of credit is to do the same thing to Kane.
Quote from: gunswordfist on January 30, 2013, 12:48:25 PM
Well, mature and dark/gritty are two different things.
Agreed.
Dave Mustaine wrote a better Punisher story in two verses than Marvel has been able to in about 40 years.
Quote from: Avaitor on April 18, 2013, 11:27:39 AM
Dave Mustaine wrote a better Punisher story in two verses than Marvel has been able to in about 40 years.
...have you actually read Garth Ennis' run yet? Or Greg Rucka's? Because unless this is just more uninformed hyperbole as usual, I have a hard time believing the following lyrics to be better than what those two men did.
QuoteI Wage the war on organized crime
Sneak attacks, repel down the rocks
Behind the lines
Some people risk to employ me
Some people live to destroy me
Either way they die. they die
They killed my wife and my baby,
With hopes to enslave me
First mistake... last mistake
Paid by the alliance, to slay all the giants
Next mistake... no more mistakes!
Some, but my opinion remains. Mostly cause it's Mustaine.
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_ma08pv2UMY1rwqft7.gif&hash=4ad17d9a7318238ed7ed4308ec900f92f69d8941)
Unbroken would've been better if Dave wrote some of it.
Unless he dedicated any lyrics to how all African women should be circumcised. The guy's a nutjob.
Quote from: Avaitor on April 18, 2013, 11:27:39 AM
Dave Mustaine wrote a better Punisher story in two verses than Marvel has been able to in about 40 years.
My love of Ennis makes me want to punch you.
Quote from: gunswordfist on April 18, 2013, 07:55:36 PM
Quote from: Avaitor on April 18, 2013, 11:27:39 AM
Dave Mustaine wrote a better Punisher story in two verses than Marvel has been able to in about 40 years.
My love of Ennis makes me want to punch you.
To be fair, there isn't a whole lot you can do with the Punisher. He's basically Death Wish in comic form, and how many Death Wish films were actually good?
Though to be fair I haven't read Ennis' run so I don't really know what went on there. The initial concept of the Punisher is pretty limited however.
Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on April 18, 2013, 08:02:06 PM
Quote from: gunswordfist on April 18, 2013, 07:55:36 PM
Quote from: Avaitor on April 18, 2013, 11:27:39 AM
Dave Mustaine wrote a better Punisher story in two verses than Marvel has been able to in about 40 years.
My love of Ennis makes me want to punch you.
To be fair, there isn't a whole lot you can do with the Punisher. He's basically Death Wish in comic form, and how many Death Wish films were actually good?
Vol. 01: In the Beginning
Vol. 02: Kitchen Irish
Vol. 03: Mother Russia
Vol. 04: Up Is Down and Black Is White
Vol. 05: The Slavers
Vol. 06: Barracuda
Vol. 07: Man of Stone
Vol. 08: Widowmaker
Vol. 09: Long Cold Dark
Vol. 10: Valley Forge, Valley Forge
QuoteThough to be fair I haven't read Ennis' run so I don't really know what went on there. The initial concept of the Punisher is pretty limited however.
The initial concept of every single character is limited if you have a bad writer in the helms. And even more so if we don't bother to be imaginative about them like good writers can be.
I was joking for once. Have you read Welcome Back, Frank? In that he sums up how the Punisher should be viewed (and how I view him) in the introduction that's done by himself and the book comes off as a tiny bit deeper because of it. As for his Max run, he basically figures out how to make multiple action movie sequels that are actually good and interesting, which is amazing in and of itself. Except Kitchen Irish. That's shit
I hate it when superheroes' civilian identities get found out by villains. I remember watching Superman TAS as a kid and having the first Parasite episode really irritate me. It seemed as invasive as if Parasite finding out Superman's secret identity happened irl or something :D
If Saga had "Produced By MTV" on the front, I would believe it was based on its content. I have no clue why that comic is popular.
-I prefer simpler but well-defined artwork of many older manga or comics to the overly-detailed looks of many series today. I don't really know much about American comics, but I do know that the simpler yet very fluid art of someone like Steve Ditko appeals to me more than anything I've seen in the a Ultimate Marvel comics. This just an example, but there is such a thing as too much detail to the point of just feeling cluttered. On the front of manga, I'll take art from Tezuka, Chiba, or Toriyama to the overly cluttered art from Gantz (which I haven't even bothered to read in ages because it's shit, but still had to mention it), HSDK, AoT, or the later parts of One Piece. There are of course exceptions: people like Urasawa or Takehiko can do more realistic art quite well, and I actually quite like the art-style of Watsuki, who's action scenes are admittedly cluttered and hard to follows at times, but admittedly is masterful when it comes to balancing character designs and backgrounds. The things I see in most modern manga, though, just distracts the hell out of me, personally.
-I love Togashi's work, but his manga are inferior to all of their respective anime adaptations, and I do mean all of them. I guess he just has such obvious flaws that most studios have competent enough people to copy what's good and improve on what's bad or missing by default.
-REAL is a much better manga than Slam Dunk (and I love both series, which are of course both by Takehiko), but I have a feeling that it wouldn't appeal to a lot of people. The current anime and manga fandom likes seemingly big epic stories like AoT or FMA, or on the opposite end of the spectrum, big epic stories told absurdly over-the-top style, like JoJo's Bizarre Adventure or Kill La Kill (which I know has a manga adaptation, or at least I think it does). And they totally should be that way. I get the appeal. Why not take advantage of the medium and go crazy with the ability to defy physicist and common logic in any way that you please? I even really like the latter 2 series that I just mentioned quite a lot, but there's also the part of me that really appreciates a well-done more realistic story as well, and in some ways those hold up a bit better for me than the stylish series, as great and re-readable as those are. On the anime front, it's the part of me that likes Kids on the Slope more than Cowboy Bebop, Samurai Champloo, and Space Dandy. I can't effectively explain exactly why, but something about it and the way it's told just really sticks with me, even if I so think that the other series are great (well, SC not so much, but once again, I get the appeal). If you look at REAL, it doesn't really have much of a set story. It just follows the lives of 3 very dysfunctional characters and how they grow and develop. And....well, I love that about it. There's no formula or specific style to it. The characters just speak for themselves through excellent writing. It's a very relaxed series, yet oddly compelling, much like KOTS. And of course, I always have love for the epics, but to me these series could hold their own with them in terms if quality, and it's a shame to me that most people just don't see them that way.
You should totally watch BECK.
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on June 04, 2014, 10:45:26 PM
-I prefer simpler but well-defined artwork of many older manga or comics to the overly-detailed looks of many series today. I don't really know much about American comics, but I do know that the simpler yet very fluid art of someone like Steve Ditko appeals to me more than anything I've seen in the a Ultimate Marvel comics. This just an example, but there is such a thing as too much detail to the point of just feeling cluttered. On the front of manga, I'll take art from Tezuka, Chiba, or Toriyama to the overly cluttered art from Gantz (which I haven't even bothered to read in ages because it's shit, but still had to mention it), HSDK, AoT, or the later parts of One Piece. There are of course exceptions: people like Urasawa or Takehiko can do more realistic art quite well, and I actually quite like the art-style of Watsuki, who's action scenes are admittedly cluttered and hard to follows at times, but admittedly is masterful when it comes to balancing character designs and backgrounds. The things I see in most modern manga, though, just distracts the hell out of me, personally.
I agree with this. Part of the advantage of the comic medium is the simplicity of delivering the story, and it's something even people like Urasawa benefit from seeing how good he is at framing one page shots and reaction panels so fluidly. It's also why the best sports manga are so good since framing and simplicity are required to make the action play- too much detail takes away from the speed of the action.
I think one of the weaknesses in a lot of modern manga, and most modern comics, is the detail put more into the backgrounds than in focusing on character reactions and framing shots. They're more interested in it looking good than their story being told well. Not all of them, of course, but it definitely seems to be a trend that I don't think looks very appealing.
There's also plenty of cases where they put too much detail into the characters to the point of pseudo-realism, which ironically doesn't look as interesting as intended (at least not to me). When it's too much detail in the backgrounds, it distracts from the characters and makes it feel like a chore to follow what they are doing. Someone like Tetsuya Chiba has artwork that's so simple yet so fluid that he can have entire pages literally speak for themselves with character actions and expressions alone, and not a single word of expository dialogue needs to be written. In fact, let me see if I can find an out of context example of what I mean to post here....
Here, check these out. That's 4 straight pages of absolutely no dialogue, yet they display a single character and make it clear to show that he's feeling unsettled in some regard, which you can tell even if you view it out of context. It's something that flows along nicely and compels you to turn each page. You simply can't do that if the art is far too cluttered and had to rely on dialogue for proper story progression rather than on both dialogue and art.
http://www.mangahere.co/manga/ashita_no_joe/c074/32.html
http://www.mangahere.co/manga/ashita_no_joe/c074/33.html
http://www.mangahere.co/manga/ashita_no_joe/c074/34.html
http://www.mangahere.co/manga/ashita_no_joe/c074/35.html
Green Lantern Vs. Green Arrow is my favorite hero vs. hero fight ever.