Animation Revelation Forum

Alright, I know that we're technically allowed to put unpopular opinions on anime in the same thread of this kind on the general animation forum, but I personally think that it just makes more sense to give anime its own thread in its own forum.

Anyways, here are some of my unpopular opinions:

-Anime isn't really in a rut. I know that I have kept saying that myself until recently, but taking a look at the bigger picture, its not really like there have been no good anime coming out in the recent seasons. I can acknowledge that there are good and intelligent series coming out still to this day among the anime community. The thing is that they are surrounded by a plethora of generic or downright terrible shit. That said, that has always been the case. People just don't remember the shit anime from the 80's and 0's (except for the infamously bad ones) precisely because they weren't worth remembering and faded into obscurity. Also, while there are still good anime being made today, a lot of the "good" modern anime isn't quite as appealing to most Western viewers as "good" anime of the past used to be. It doesn't mean that they are any less good for it, but rather than their appeal is a bit more restricted than some of the broader appealing anime of the past.

-Haruhi and her various anime series incarnations are boring (I haven't read any of the original light novels so I have no comment on those). I know a lot of people in the anime community love Haruhi (outside of Endless Eight), but I have tried to view the show and that one movie iteration of it with an open mind....and it just bores me. I don't find it to be funny, witty, or even amusing. It just feels like it tries way too hard to be over the top that it falls flat on its ass. To be clear, I don't think that its a bad show by any means, but I wouldn't say that its really a good show, either. I just don't get it, honestly.

-The first Full Metal Alchemist anime which deviates from the manga is a FAR better show than Brotherhood and completely surpasses its source material. The manga is just a glorified shonen that thinks its telling a grander story-line than it really is, and by extension that includes Brotherhood, as well. Really speaking, they are OK series. The characters are honestly very bland, though, and the villains are significantly less interesting than they were in the first FMA anime. And on that note, the first FMA anime is a good anime series but is far off from great due to long stretches of boring material in between the good stuff and some overly-emotional characters that come off as more whiny than actually being well-written and endearing. I do give the show credit for having great ideas and having some truly terrific episodes, and I do honestly like it, but it is also overrated, but just not as much as Brotherhood and the manga. The manga only gets the free pass because its "the original," and I used to say that it was better 2, but looking at both series without bias, its clear to me which one is better written and executed.

-Kyoto Animation's anime line-up sucks. I think most of its line-up consists of either boring moe shows or lackluster comedies and/or romances. Maybe I'm typecasting ti too much and I admit I'm biased but I don't give a shit. I have tried numerous highly praised KyoAni shows (and I watched more than just a single episode of each one that I tried to solidify my opinions on them) and none of them came even close to gaining just an ounce of my interest, except for one series, Full Metal Panic: The Second Raid. That is literally the ONLY good KyoAni production that I've seen, but in that regard its a REALLY good adaptation (in fact its one of my favorite anime of all time). Its a shame that KyoAni doesn't pursue more projects in that vein rather than going for their next boring school drama ore comedy type of show.

-Shonen series don't inherently suck. That is to say that the regular shonen formula is fine on its own. Most shonen anime suck due to being cheap and uninspired adaptations of cheap and uninspired source material. Truly good shonen series can thrive on following the shonen formula but executing it right with great writing, thrilling and strategic fights, and endearing characters who may fall into 1 or 2 cliches but who have a unique and captivating charisma all their own. Yu Yu Hakusho is to this day the best example of this kind of shonen anime.

-On that note, the Chapter Black/Sensui arc of Yu Yu Hakusho is a downright better story arc than The Dark Tournament arc (and believe me, I LOVE the DT arc, but its baffling to me how anyone can deny how superior the CB arc is).

-The Hunter X Hunter 2011 anime is about as good as the 1999 anime for very different reasons. This is an unpopular opinion in that most of the fan-base seems to prefer one show over the other and completely dismisses the other. Those who prefer the manga embrace the 2011 anime for being a much more faithful adaptations, while those who started with the 1999 anime feel that the 2011 anime is a huge step down. From what I have seen, neither side has ever come up with legitimately good arguments against one another, and just show that they are only good at spewing out blind fan-boy biased nonsense. The 1999 anime excels with better art direction and general flow than the 2011 anime (minus the fillers in the Hunter Exams arc which admittedly drags it down a little). It has quite a bit more subtlety to it and the changes that it makes suit the story and characters just fine. The 2011 anime on the other hand has a far sharper presentation and has mostly better pacing (that doesn't mean it feels like it flows as smoothly as the 1999 anime, but rather that it never takes too long to get from one point of the story to the next). The 2011 anime also has a better soundtrack than most people give it credit for, but the problem is how inappropriately the music tracks are used in many instances throughout the series so far. Also, where the first anime excelled in subtlety, the new anime drops the ball with an extremely over the top sort of persona to it. Overall, though, both are fine anime series for anyone who enjoys a good unorthodox shonen series.

I don't like any of Nisio Isin's shows. They are so fucking wordy, and none of the dialogue actually moves the plot or shapes the characters. They're just there because Nisio thought it sounded cool. People keep talking about how Bakemonogatari was a brilliant show. And I don't see that. It was just a harem with dazzling direction and arcs that could have been one episode enlarged into three due to all the talking.

And I also feel that the first FMA anime is better than Brotherhood. In fact, it kind of sucks how popular opinion considers the show on the same level as the Hellsing TV show instead of the series that got tons of people into anime in the first place. Just because something isn't faithful doesn't mean it's inferior.

I know that I pick on Miyazaki a lot, but I respect the guy so I'll leave his grand lifetime works as a whole alone. I will however single out one title:

-Princess Mononoke: Even among Miyazaki/Ghibli films, this one gets absurd amounts of praise, and I honestly just don't get what's so appealing about it. Yeah, its a very adult and mature story, but I never saw anything about it that made it very interesting to watch and I couldn't identify with any of the characters (as is typical of any Miyazaki film for me, really). Maybe I'm missing the point entirely, but I just don't see the appeal in this one, whereas I can at least get why something like Spirited Away is so well loved.

Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 06, 2012, 11:42:40 PM
And I also feel that the first FMA anime is better than Brotherhood. In fact, it kind of sucks how popular opinion considers the show on the same level as the Hellsing TV show instead of the series that got tons of people into anime in the first place. Just because something isn't faithful doesn't mean it's inferior.

Its just crazy fan-boy/girl logic. "The original is always better than any different version of a story that spawns from it." That's there only logic to support their reasoning and its terrible logic at that. Plenty of great adaptations have taken tons of liberties from their original source material and actually benefited from it. Its called an "adaptation" rather than a "copy/paste" for a reason. The worst offense of people taking this to idiotic levels is with the Hunter X Hunter 1999 anime. Unlike FMA, it DID actually stick to the same general story-line and characters. Its just that its director Furahashi didn't agree with various writing choices that Togashi made and instead exhibited his own directional choices, and honestly, I think his changes worked out fine, and in some cases I would actually agree with him in how some of his changes were better than how Togashi wrote portions of the story. The characters in his version of the story-line were slightly altered but in return carried a noticeable amount more emotional depth to them than in the initial arcs of the manga, and he accomplished some great scenes without the use of excessive dialogue which Togashi loves to use at times (though to be fair, that works fine in the manga, but it was smart of Furahashi to have plenty of good subtle silent moments in the anime, in which you could sense character emotions through well-drawn and animated facial expressions and get a feel of the mood by the tone of the background art design and music). If you ask a fan of the manga, though, none of that matters because its "not how Togashi wrote the story." That's just plain ignorance and doesn't give credit where credit should be due, IMO.

The fact that so many people turned on the first FMA anime just because it greatly alters its source material is just a travesty, and it shows that the tons of people raving about how good it was before Brotherhood came out didn't even know WHY it was good. It also shows that they don't know WHY Brotherhood is good (or rather why they THINK its good). They just say that its better because it follows the "original," and they have no good reasoning as to why they actually think that it has better writing and characterization that the first FMA anime adaptation.

While I don't hate the first FMA anime, I do slightly prefer Brotherhood over it, simply because the latter is the type of story I prefer, and I like some of the manga's characterizations better.

I didn't mind giving Light a slightly more sympathetic send off in the Death Note anime. In the end, Light was simply someone with great potential who made the wrong choices with the power he found, and didn't really realize that until it was too late, and the anime shed more light (no pun intended I swear) on that.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on September 07, 2012, 12:00:38 AM
Its just crazy fan-boy/girl logic. "The original is always better than any different version of a story that spawns from it." That's there only logic to support their reasoning and its terrible logic at that. Plenty of great adaptations have taken tons of liberties from their original source material and actually benefited from it. Its called an "adaptation" rather than a "copy/paste" for a reason. The worst offense of people taking this to idiotic levels is with the Hunter X Hunter 1999 anime. Unlike FMA, it DID actually stick to the same general story-line and characters. Its just that its director Furahashi didn't agree with various writing choices that Togashi made and instead exhibited his own directional choices, and honestly, I think his changes worked out fine, and in some cases I would actually agree with him in how some of his changes were better than how Togashi wrote portions of the story. The characters in his version of the story-line were slightly altered but in return carried a noticeable amount more emotional depth to them than in the initial arcs of the manga, and he accomplished some great scenes without the use of excessive dialogue which Togashi loves to use at times (though to be fair, that works fine in the manga, but it was smart of Furahashi to have plenty of good subtle silent moments in the anime, in which you could sense character emotions through well-drawn and animated facial expressions and get a feel of the mood by the tone of the background art design and music). If you ask a fan of the manga, though, none of that matters because its "not how Togashi wrote the story." That's just plain ignorance and doesn't give credit where credit should be due, IMO.

The fact that so many people turned on the first FMA anime just because it greatly alters its source material is just a travesty, and it shows that the tons of people raving about how good it was before Brotherhood came out didn't even know WHY it was good. It also shows that they don't know WHY Brotherhood is good (or rather why they THINK its good). They just say that its better because it follows the "original," and they have no good reasoning as to why they actually think that it has better writing and characterization that the first FMA anime adaptation.

Fanboys/girls who freak out over the slightest change in an adaptation are fucking annoying. I understand being upset if an adaptation changes a major character trait, or does something that clashes with the characters and/or setting, but freaking out over a change that fleshes out something that the original work didn't elaborate on? Come on.

Quote from: Rynnec on September 07, 2012, 12:30:49 AM
While I don't hate the first FMA anime, I do slightly prefer Brotherhood over it, simply because the latter is the type of story I prefer, and I like some of the manga's characterizations better.

That's a fair standpoint. I personally prefer the first anime because I felt that it kept the story more interesting and less predictable, and that the characters came off more believable to me, but I can at least see how you would prefer the manga/Brotherhood with your reasoning. Perhaps I came off too harsh against it with my post, but I'm just more angry at the blind and biased fans of that iteration of FMA than I am at the iteration itself.

QuoteI didn't mind giving Light a slightly more sympathetic send off in the Death Note anime. In the end, Light was simply someone with great potential who made the wrong choices with the power he found, and didn't really realize that until it was too late, and the anime shed more light (no pun intended I swear) on that.

I agree that the anime's more sympathetic ending was good. I will admit that I prefer the manga's cold-hearted ending (and believe me, I don't usually like cold endings, but in this case it fit perfectly and was really satisfying for me), and I find that I really like how Light in the manga clearly does not regret anything he has done when he realizes that he's about to die (other than getting caught doing it ;) ). There's a really dark, twisted sense of humor to Light's death in the manga, what with him saying something akin to "shit...." before he dies, like the only real thing grating at him before his death was the mistake he made that lead to it and how he overlooked it, rather than anything else that one would normally consider to be more important final thoughts. In the end, Light was really just doing what he was doing to kill boredom, and he continued doing it because to him it was just downright fun. I feel that he always knew that subconsciously, but his higher level of conscience forced him to convince himself that he was doing what he did for the greater good. I feel that this was sort of true for the anime as well, but as you mentioned, the anime painted him in a far more tragic and sympathetic light at the end than the manga did. Overall, though, I like both versions of the ending.

QuoteFanboys/girls who freak out over the slightest change in an adaptation are fucking annoying. I understand being upset if an adaptation changes a major character trait, or does something that clashes with the characters and/or setting, but freaking out over a change that fleshes out something that the original work didn't elaborate on? Come on.

If you ever read the Hunter X Hunter manga and then watched the 1999 anime and found out the types of changes that the hardcore fans were freaking out about, I swear you'd have yourself a good laugh. Its like if it doesn't follow the manga's story-line frame by frame and doesn't interpret the story the exact same way, then somehow its criminally bad. This is why I despite the hardcore side of the HXH fan-base.

Ah, good. Just in time.

Inspector Gadget is the only anime comedy worth talking about. I hate the kind of humor that's in too many other comedy series. I guess that makes it 1 of the 3 non-shounen anime I like.

...Inspector Gadget is an anime? :zonk:

Quote from: Foggle on September 07, 2012, 08:33:39 AM
...Inspector Gadget is an anime? :zonk:

Yep. I found that out on some forum. I think it was tv.com. The fact that you can't tell it's an anime is probably why I liked it so much because it was the kind of comedy I liked as a kid (and still today)

Yeah, I remember hearing that Inspector Gadget was a replacement for a proposed Lupin III series set in the future.

Ah crapcrapcrapcrap.

Lupin AND Inspector Gadget are my only liked anime comedies. Can't believe I forgot about the 3rd/

Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 07, 2012, 09:59:27 AM
Yeah, I remember hearing that Inspector Gadget was a replacement for a proposed Lupin III series set in the future.

Yeah, it was called Lupin VIII and Jean Chalopin, the man behind among others, Inspector Gadget, The Mysterious Cities of Gold etc worked on the script. There's some more info here (http://www.lupinencyclopedia.com/anime/lupin_viii) . Apparently, Lupin 8th was supposed to be a detective instead of a thief. Reading about this 8th Lupin, despite my love for the shows mentioned above (well, perhaps more nostalgic fondness in the case of the former, I haven't watched Inspector Gadget since I was a kid, so I'm not sure if it holds up), I can't help but feel that perhaps it was for the best that the project was scrapped. Although, who can say for sure? I can't deny that the idea of a Lupin anime set in the future intrigues me a little bit.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on September 06, 2012, 11:35:33 PM
Alright, I know that we're technically allowed to put unpopular opinions on anime in the same thread of this kind on the general animation forum, but I personally think that it just makes more sense to give anime its own thread in its own forum.

I'm sorry, but I don't. I thought it'd make as much sense to talk about anime in the regular animation thread, since anime is a form of animation.

But whatever.

Quote from: Pharass on September 07, 2012, 10:55:41 AM

Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 07, 2012, 09:59:27 AM
Yeah, I remember hearing that Inspector Gadget was a replacement for a proposed Lupin III series set in the future.

Yeah, it was called Lupin VIII and Jean Chalopin, the man behind among others, Inspector Gadget, The Mysterious Cities of Gold etc worked on the script. There's some more info here (http://www.lupinencyclopedia.com/anime/lupin_viii) . Apparently, Lupin 8th was supposed to be a detective instead of a thief. Reading about this 8th Lupin, despite my love for the shows mentioned above (well, perhaps more nostalgic fondness in the case of the former, I haven't watched Inspector Gadget since I was a kid, so I'm not sure if it holds up), I can't help but feel that perhaps it was for the best that the project was scrapped. Although, who can say for sure? I can't deny that the idea of a Lupin anime set in the future intrigues me a little bit.

Veeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyyyyyy enneresting. I'm reading this now. Thanks. ;D

Jigen the Sixth to trade in his cigarette and Magnum for a lollipop and laser gun that drew no blood from its target.

:wth:

Okay, here's one, but I don't think it's too unpopular of an opinion on here.

I don't believe in the belief that entertainment "manipulates emotions", since, well, that's why we read books, watch movies and TV, etc, to have our emotions tested. I don't understand it when people say that E.T. are specifically manipulative in that regard, because why wouldn't it be? It's a movie.

I do believe that certain slice of life series, like Kanon, are as close as there is to a piece of work that manipulates emotions.

I think it's the opposite, really. I mean, it's pretty easy to take a side character, give him the best jokes and most likability, then kill him off in an abrupt matter to make audiences feel bad. Joss Whedon managed to do that twice, after all.

Eh, yeah, there are some deaths which make me think otherwise. Again, I point to Rue from The Hunger Games.

But I still don't like the term.

Quote from: gunswordfist on September 07, 2012, 11:20:57 AM
Jigen the Sixth to trade in his cigarette and Magnum for a lollipop and laser gun that drew no blood from its target.

:wth:

:whuh: :whuh: :whuh: :whuh: :whuh:

Watching Brotherhood on Adult Swim the first time, all I could think was that I'd love the story even more than the first anime if they'd quit stopping every five minutes to make the audience laugh, even in serious situations. They both have their pros and cons. I like FMA's homunculus more than FMA:B, and I like the way they handled Hughes' death, but I prefer Father as a villain to Dante. I like the evil general dude and the version of Kimbley in FMA, not sure which Scar I like more, and I damn sure do not like the annoying little girl (Mei?) or that extra little group of characters in general. I enjoyed the final battle in FMA:B more, it had some pretty good "holy shit" moments, though sometimes it felt like too many. The final battle with Dante just kind of sucked, and the whole thing was derailed with the World War II thing and Ed getting stuck there.

Quote from: Avaitor on September 07, 2012, 11:01:17 AM
I'm sorry, but I don't. I thought it'd make as much sense to talk about anime in the regular animation thread, since anime is a form of animation.

But whatever.

Yet almost nobody but me was really talking about anime in that thread (and even I always felt hesitant to do so). I feel that anime discussion in that thread just didn't fit in with the majority of opinions people put up there.

I never claimed that anime was not part of general animation, but just like we have a different forum to express anime despite their being a "general animation" forum, I don't see the logic in lumping the unpopular opinions discussion for all animation into one thread, especially when people would have very distinct opinions on anime apart from other forms of animation.

If you don't like the idea of this thread being separate, though, then you're free to close it if you want.

I feel silly for my earlier post now that I reflect on it. This thread has already been gaining some traction, so I don't see a point in closing it.

Quote from: Nel on September 07, 2012, 12:35:46 PM
Watching Brotherhood on Adult Swim the first time, all I could think was that I'd love the story even more than the first anime if they'd quit stopping every five minutes to make the audience laugh, even in serious situations. They both have their pros and cons. I like FMA's homunculus more than FMA:B, and I like the way they handled Hughes' death, but I prefer Father as a villain to Dante. I like the evil general dude and the version of Kimbley in FMA, not sure which Scar I like more, and I damn sure do not like the annoying little girl (Mei?) or that extra little group of characters in general. I enjoyed the final battle in FMA:B more, it had some pretty good "holy shit" moments, though sometimes it felt like too many. The final battle with Dante just kind of sucked, and the whole thing was derailed with the World War II thing and Ed getting stuck there.

Woo, there's a load for me to say here. Spoiler alert:

As for the main villains, I don't really care for either, in fact most of both FMA's villains suck. Father is clearly better than Dante though. At least he got some setup. He doesn't have much of a personality and is pretty much just a power grabber though but Dante was like a last second thrown together villain. There's no way she has any fans at all. There's no reason to care for her at all.

While Japanese Prince Of Persia is passably, I don't like any of the generic anime characters. Also, they made it seem like Ed may go to Shing and learn Alchehistry (I know I fucked that spelling up) after his alchemy got shut off by Father in an attempt to beat him that way but nothing came of that so you got the people from Shing just being either annoying or pass-by-every-once-in-awhile characters.

Kimbley was underused in both shows. That last battle with Al...ugh. They built up Al not being a damsel in distress anymore (the end of the previous episode was beautiful) and I know it was impossible for him to beat Kimbley and a powered up Pride but him getting saved by nobody #245 just plain sucked. Oh and the animation in Al vs Kimbley and Pride was the ABSOLUTE worst in the series. That rock alchemy was just ugly. It's like that screwed over Al's big moment on purpose. As for Kimbley in FMA, he was about as good and the fight with Scar rocked and helped give Scar a good finale (Once I think about, it's sweet justice that he fucked up The Crimson Alchemist and dumped his body since he killed his brother and so many other Ishbalans (sp?)) I just wish Kimbley had more screentime overall.

I liked Scar more in FMA. He was in a tie for my favorite character in the show (Greed's the other one..and also noticeably worse in FMAB but that might be because they rushed that part to catch up to the manga. And no I'm not talking about Ling Greed. Fuck him)

I thought Ed vs Father wasn't that good. Everything before that, from the start of the attack on Central to them losing to Homunculus Father (you know, when he looks like Pride) was good. Overall it's better than FMA's. I do love Envy vs. Ed though.

Quote from: Avaitor on September 07, 2012, 12:59:49 PM
I feel silly for my earlier post now that I reflect on it. This thread has already been gaining some traction, so I don't see a point in closing it.

Thanks grumpy old man.

While we're on the subject of FMA villains, I did like Wrath better in the manga/Brotherhood than in the first anime. Sure, the f?hrer was pretty good as Pride too, but if each homunculi represents one of the seven deadly sins, I think the genocidal dictator who pretty much hates everyone is a better embodiment of wrath than a kid who I can't remember doing all that much other than trying to kill the heroes.

Kimblee I also liked better in Brotherhood. 2003 anime Kimblee was pretty much a generic psycho who liked to blow shit up. Brotherhood-Kimblee...well, he was also a psycho who liked to blow shit up, but he came of as being more creative and stylish about it.

On the other hand, Lust was a much more interesting character in the first anime. She came of as more complex and nuanced, whereas manga-Lust was pretty much seductive femme fatale #23405 and nothing more.

Finally, while Father was a better big bad, I've always liked Dante's theme music a lot. Been awhile since I listened to it, but I remember it sounding really haunting and sinister. Certainly a better theme than Dante deserved.

Damn, now I want to watch the first anime again.

Shit, now you got Dante's theme music stuck in my head. Didn't really think of it as hers until now but it's clearly what you are talking about.

Hmm, once I think about it, Kimblee did have a decent part in Brotherhood. He was just a jobber in FMA.

Wrath in the first series is about the worst thing the franchise has ever had. I hate that thing.

As for The Fuhrer, Bradley is clearly better in Brotherhood. In the first series he's just a plot twist out of nowhere.

-The first season of Full Metal Panic! is better than what most people give it credit for. Admittedly Gonzo didn't do the best job of adapting the source material, but it still had some good material and it still stands out with its perfect blend of both drama and comedy. And I don't get why some people say that the sci-fi elements feel forced when the whole story is built off of that sci-fi foundation from the start.

-Code Geass is just boring. I'm not even talking about the terrible R2 which even fans hate, but rather the series as a whole is just bland more than anything else. None of the main characters are interesting, the art design is really grating (especially with those stick-figure character models), and the overall writing just isn't that sharp.

-Zoids: Chaotic Century and Gaurdian Force are severely underrated anime and to me they make one truly great shonen/mecha series. Its so much more than just "Pokemon meets Gundam," which is what so many people seem to think.

-Digimon Tamers is the best season of Digimon. I know that I initially didn't like it as a kid, but now that I have re-watched it, I am convinced that it was really not meant for kids despite technically being a "kids" show. For a children's cartoon, it really does present some dark and disturbing themes, and has some pretty fucked up characters when you actually analyze some of them a little bit. It still has plenty of action and enough cheesy shonen goodness to probably be entertaining for kids, but there's really much more to it than that. I do still like Adventure and even its horribly flawed sequel, but I have to admit that I didn't give this one enough credit before.

Alright, here's an opinion of mine that will make everyone on this board hate me, but I might as well get it out:

-Baccano! is....OK. I have watched through the series once and then recently tried re-watching it, but I can't find the motivation to do so. I'll say this: it has terrific art-style, SOME characters that are memorable and truly interesting to analyze, great musical scores, superb animation (for the most part), a great dub (thanks to FUNimation), and really strong writing in certain places. By all means, its the recipe for an amazing show and I can respect that for most people it is. For me, though, it doesn't add up to be quite what it should be, mainly because I feel the actual package is not very well put together and not well executed. The people who made this anime were trying to make a smart show, which is fine, and they also wanted to make one of those stories with multiple characters who have vague relations to one another and may cross paths at certain points in the series but for the most part have their own story arc. They use a classic technique of trying to switch back and forth between different stories and also go back and forth through time. The thing is that this kind of story-telling is very hard to nail down right and if its not done properly the pacing really suffers, and for me at least I feel as though this anime falls victim to that. The general idea is to get out as much as possible of one particular story-line just enough to really get the viewer interested in invested in that character or set of characters to see what happens to them next, and then leave them hanging by switching over or back to another ongoing plot-line featuring other characters. In this case, though, the transitions don't usually flow smoothly in that vein, and instead a lot of the times the transitions feel more random than anything else, as though the writers just do it only because they can, and not for any meaningful reason. I also feel that about half the cast isn't really all that interesting, so I especially get aggravated when I go from watching characters that I'm invested in to seeing a couple of characters that I just don't give 2 shits about.

I realize that I'm in the minority opinion here and I do do still respect the show for what it is, but for whatever reason the overall execution of it mostly just falls flat for me, personally. I'd still probably recommend it to anyone who wanted to watch an intelligent and somewhat interesting to analyze anime, though, especially since its really short.

It's funny seeing all this praise for Eureka 7 now that it's re-airing. I don't remember this much of a positive reaction all those years ago, and personally I'm finding it as unbearable as I did back then. It has some nice animation to be sure, but these characters are generally unlikeable.

...And I'm finding Samurai 7 boring too.  :whuh:

^I find both of those series boring too. Eureka 7 is just painful for me to look it. I can just tell it wouldn't be for me.

Wonder if those are the two Zoids series I like. (Assuming they are) I need to watch more of them, especially the sports one since I've seen like 5 episodes of it but either way, behind Big O, they should be considered the greatest giant robot anime. I like how all three shows have giant robots that actually seem to weigh as much as they do instead of mechs they buzz around like psychedelic cockroaches. So hating those kinds of anime and have these 3 what I'd consider to be the top 3 best would by my unpopular opinions there.

I don't recognize the subtitles for Digimons, I just go by seasons, but the 4th one will always be my favorite. I love it so much.

Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood is the greatest anime of all time.

Fullmetal Alchemist is the 2nd greatest.

Lupin Secret Of Mamo  of the greatest classic anime movie.

Lupin Castle Of Cagliostro is the 2nd greatest and isn't as good as Secret Of Mamo.

Yugi-Oh 4Kids version is good.

Going back a bit here:

Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 07, 2012, 11:35:44 AM
I think it's the opposite, really. I mean, it's pretty easy to take a side character, give him the best jokes and most likability, then kill him off in an abrupt matter to make audiences feel bad. Joss Whedon managed to do that twice, after all.

Hence why I don't tend to enjoy those sorts of things, without foreshadowing an emotion or event or closure of a character arc, when a death comes out of left field it totally feels like a forced grab for drama. 'Forced reactions' is a better term than 'manipulate' as all stories are meant to touch deeper emotions of the souls watching, even ones with an underlying subtext. It's the ones that try to force a viewer to feel a certain way about a certain character or situation without leaving any wiggle room for interpretation that feels off, since the story should just present the situation organically.

In other news:

I've never had an issue with the anime Death Note ending. The anime focused on how one push down the wrong road can lead your life to ruins, while the manga was more interested in pointing out that evil, no matter how wicked, is not as strong as good which will always triumph in the end. They're both legit takes on the story.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on September 06, 2012, 11:52:36 PM
I know that I pick on Miyazaki a lot, but I respect the guy so I'll leave his grand lifetime works as a whole alone. I will however single out one title:

-Princess Mononoke: Even among Miyazaki/Ghibli films, this one gets absurd amounts of praise, and I honestly just don't get what's so appealing about it. Yeah, its a very adult and mature story, but I never saw anything about it that made it very interesting to watch and I couldn't identify with any of the characters (as is typical of any Miyazaki film for me, really). Maybe I'm missing the point entirely, but I just don't see the appeal in this one, whereas I can at least get why something like Spirited Away is so well loved.

IT DOES?!?

I've fought on numerous message boards back in the day defending this film. Most were Miyazaki fans screaming things like "It doesn't represent his best work!' to the point where I just accepted that people didn't like it.

I mean, it's not like Satoshi Kon where I've literally been called stupid for 'not getting it' (despite that not being the point, but it makes them feel smarter so whatever) when I've said outside of a few works I just don't care for his work.

I guess you and I just visited very different forums then. I swear that almost everywhere that I have gone, Princess Mononoke has been one of the most highly praised Miyazaki films that I know of. :P

Being adapted by Neil Gaiman doesn't hurt.

Quote from: gunswordfist on September 07, 2012, 06:29:28 PM
I liked Scar more in FMA. He was in a tie for my favorite character in the show (Greed's the other one..and also noticeably worse in FMAB but that might be because they rushed that part to catch up to the manga. And no I'm not talking about Ling Greed. Fuck him)

But Greedling has a much more sexier voice.

Quote from: Rynnec on September 16, 2012, 01:08:58 AM

Quote from: gunswordfist on September 07, 2012, 06:29:28 PM
I liked Scar more in FMA. He was in a tie for my favorite character in the show (Greed's the other one..and also noticeably worse in FMAB but that might be because they rushed that part to catch up to the manga. And no I'm not talking about Ling Greed. Fuck him)

But Greedling has a much more sexier voice.

>>Thinking Chris Patton doesn't have a sexy voice.

I've recently been re-watching 2 particular anime series in bits and pieces, but I honestly have to say;

I think that Trigun is a better show than Cowboy Bebop. Don't get me wrong, Cowboy Bebop is still one of my favorite anime ever and is easily one of the most influential, but....I'd be lying if I said that I loved every single second of it. Some episodes can be boring and sometimes the series can get too wrapped up in being stylistic that it loses me for quite a few moments before it does anything to catch my interest again. That's just how I feel. Trigun has a good story, compelling characters, and is constantly entertaining. Its not as influential or as "expertly crafted" as Cowboy Bebop (as some would say), and it has far inferior animation, but its just a lot more interesting and entertaining for me to watch.

Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 16, 2012, 01:10:31 AM

Quote from: Rynnec on September 16, 2012, 01:08:58 AM

Quote from: gunswordfist on September 07, 2012, 06:29:28 PM
I liked Scar more in FMA. He was in a tie for my favorite character in the show (Greed's the other one..and also noticeably worse in FMAB but that might be because they rushed that part to catch up to the manga. And no I'm not talking about Ling Greed. Fuck him)

But Greedling has a much more sexier voice.

>>Thinking Chris Patton doesn't have a sexy voice.

>>Implying his voice is sexier than Troy Baker's.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on September 16, 2012, 01:18:33 AM
I've recently been re-watching 2 particular anime series in bits and pieces, but I honestly have to say;

I think that Trigun is a better show than Cowboy Bebop. Don't get me wrong, Cowboy Bebop is still one of my favorite anime ever and is easily one of the most influential, but....I'd be lying if I said that I loved every single second of it. Some episodes can be boring and sometimes the series can get too wrapped up in being stylistic that it loses me for quite a few moments before it does anything to catch my interest again. That's just how I feel. Trigun has a good story, compelling characters, and is constantly entertaining. Its not as influential or as "expertly crafted" as Cowboy Bebop (as some would say), and it has far inferior animation, but its just a lot more interesting and entertaining for me to watch.

I can't make a fair comparison for both shows since I haven't seen all of Trigun yet (I got up to about episode 10 before Funimation removed the dubbed episodes) but I can say that "H.T" is a slightly better song than "Tank!".

Quote from: Rynnec on September 16, 2012, 01:30:00 AM
>>Implying his voice is sexier than Troy Baker's.

>>Implying it isn't.

I gotta say, that talk in the TZ Bleach episode talkback is really cathartic, it's the first time in years I've actually felt like I'm having a conversation on TZ and not just everyone saying their own little thought bubble and leaving it at that.

As I said in the post there, though: I have been watching some of the anime dvds I've been ordering, mostly AS and Sci-Fi's Animonday stuff, and I gotta say, Code Geass isn't holding up for me at all. I always remembered the fanservice weighing it down for me, but I forgot how much is actually in this and the dvds are unedited, so... yeah. Also, the freaking high school scenes. Ugh. We got a show about Japanese being slaughtered en masse and then we go straight to an episode about shenanigans at a high school festival. Riveting. And I'm nowhere near the butchered Season 2 yet.  :lol:

Code Geass is one of the most poorly-thought out shows in recent time. The creators were simultaneously too serious and not serious enough. Not to mention the racist subtext in making the British Americans Britannians psychotic, bloodthirsty manipulators who have sexual feelings for their siblings.

Lelouch just murdered Clovis in cold blood and is choking back vomit because of it, but instead of exploring that further, here's Milly with a comment on Shirley's twins!  :joy:

Code Geass is basically just a poor man's Death Note combined with a poor man's Gundam. Another way of saying it is that its essentially 2 poorly done series' concepts for the price of nothing....except wasted time....

Well, it's in my collection now, at any rate. And since I started marathoning it, I'm going to see it through to the end. And then comes Gurren Lagann, which I'm dreading just as much. (I'm really not even sure why I bought that one. Just to have it I guess.)

Not only is it badly-written, but it also feels morally reprehensible in a way. The way the show lets Lelouch off of committing mass murder and government manipulation, even making him some kind of hero in the end, is just disgusting.

At least Gurren Lagann's tongue-in-cheek.

Damn, now you guys are making me want to watch Code Geass again. I quite liked it in highschool, but now that I'm out of my "angry teen" phase, I'd like to see how it holds up as well.

Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 16, 2012, 02:03:10 AM
Not only is it badly-written, but it also feels morally reprehensible in a way. The way the show lets Lelouch off of committing mass murder and government manipulation, even making him some kind of hero in the end, is just disgusting.

At least Gurren Lagann's tongue-in-cheek.

IIRC, the show tried to paint Lulu in a grayer light (even toning done Britannia's "EVUL"-ness) but the results...yeah.

Quote from: Nel on September 16, 2012, 02:02:01 AM
Well, it's in my collection now, at any rate. And since I started marathoning it, I'm going to see it through to the end. And then comes Gurren Lagann, which I'm dreading just as much. (I'm really not even sure why I bought that one. Just to have it I guess.)

I fucking love Gurren Lagann. Though, I know that most everyone else here doesn't.

Eh, whatever gray morality the show was trying to portray got blown in the very first episode when Britannian soldiers were shown slaughtering unarmed civilians for poorly explained reasons.

Yeah, but fans over-hyped the fuck out of GL before it aired, and after the first 7 episodes of absolute wackiness (which I did eventually groove into), the change in tone and how it seemed like it was now expecting the viewer to take it seriously (while still trying to retain the silliness and nonsense-physics logic) just never sat well with me.

But I'll give GL this: it has provided some pretty awesome Yoko cosplayers at cons.  :swoon:

There's nothing wrong with liking it. I've seen more people love it than hate it, so I'll never even try to fight that just because it never gelled with me. Just one of those weird ones where I wound up in the minority, it seems.

Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 16, 2012, 02:03:10 AM
Not only is it badly-written, but it also feels morally reprehensible in a way. The way the show lets Lelouch off of committing mass murder and government manipulation, even making him some kind of hero in the end, is just disgusting.

That makes me appreciate the manga's ending for Death Note even more. I love how the author of that series showed absolutely no sympathy for Light. Its funny because while I don't like Light, I can't help but appreciate him whenever I see people comparing him to Lelouch. At least Light was legitimately smart and managed to stay on top of everyone else for as long as he did because he outwitted them. Maybe its just me, but I couldn't help but feel that the writers of Code Geass just had everything play conveniently into Lelouch's hands to make him look smart....rather than, you know....actually making him a smart character. Also he deserved no sympathy in his death scene, yet they made it look like the guy was a saint. I fucking hate it when writers think that they have come up with a great, tragic anti-hero, but just end up spewing out another unlikable prick.

The difference between Light and Lelouch is that the latter had more legitimate reasons to do what he did, but was ultimately ruined by amateur writing.

Yeah, putting the ridiculous hype aside, I don't really hate Gurren Lagaan after all. Its just not my kind of series. I do however hate the ridiculous hype it got and how much people still rave about how great it is to this day. As a series on its own, it just doesn't appeal to me, but I can respect the opinions of people who like it. Its really just not my cup of tea, though.

Legitimate reasons? Your father planning Instrumentality, only to have his wife gravely injured by his brother, so has to make it look like his daughter got horribly crippled for some reason, then sends his two kids to a country about to be completely razed by war and turned into a third-world country is legitimate?

Quote from: Rynnec on September 16, 2012, 02:16:06 AM
The difference between Light and Lelouch is that the latter had more legitimate reasons to do what he did, but was ultimately ruined by amateur writing.

That's somewhat true, but Light was always painted as an egotistical jerk with a god complex (who just happened to be smart enough to stay alive for quite a while), and the author did a good job of staying consistent with that character role for him. They never pretended like he was anything more than that, so it never really became an issue.

As for Lelouch, I suppose you could say he has a better reason for serving the type of role that his character took on (I don't really feel that he does, but I'll say that he at least has more of a reason than Light ever did). But, either way, as you said, the writers did a really poor job of handling his character, and instead of coming off as a noble anti-hero or a tragic hero (or however you want to describe his archetypal role), he just came off as an ass-hole with too much power at his disposal (at least to me). By all means, he should have been a better character than Light....but somehow the writers just made him seem worse, IMO.

Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 16, 2012, 02:18:44 AM
Legitimate reasons? Your father planning Instrumentality, only to have his wife gravely injured by his brother, so has to make it look like his daughter got horribly crippled for some reason, then sends his two kids to a country about to be completely razed by war and turned into a third-world country is legitimate?

Wha? ???

Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 16, 2012, 02:18:44 AM
Legitimate reasons? Your father planning Instrumentality, only to have his wife gravely injured by his brother, so has to make it look like his daughter got horribly crippled for some reason, then sends his two kids to a country about to be completely razed by war and turned into a third-world country is legitimate?

It could happen to yooouuuuuu...  :zonk:

Quote from: Rynnec on September 16, 2012, 02:22:43 AM

Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 16, 2012, 02:18:44 AM
Legitimate reasons? Your father planning Instrumentality, only to have his wife gravely injured by his brother, so has to make it look like his daughter got horribly crippled for some reason, then sends his two kids to a country about to be completely razed by war and turned into a third-world country is legitimate?

Wha? ???

Hey, I didn't make any of that up.

Damn, I forgot just how little of Charles' backstory makes sense at all. At least with the whole Zero Requiem thing kinda sorta had some semblance of what could be called logic in it. The whole instrumentality thing was just weird. Adn then there was the whole thing with Lelouch's mom being evil all of a sudden...WTF?

Well, I'm willing to give them a little bit of leeway given how fucked over they were while writing that season, but I don't think making it the way they intended would have helped that much.

Oh well. Super Robot Wars Z2 probably fixed all of the problems with Geass story anyway. .3.

Quote from: Nel on September 16, 2012, 02:30:55 AM
Well, I'm willing to give them a little bit of leeway given how fucked over they were while writing that season, but I don't think making it the way they intended would have helped that much.

Well, Rolo wouldn't have existed. Other than that, it probably would've been the same thing.

Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on September 16, 2012, 02:40:58 AM

Quote from: Nel on September 16, 2012, 02:30:55 AM
Well, I'm willing to give them a little bit of leeway given how fucked over they were while writing that season, but I don't think making it the way they intended would have helped that much.

Well, Rolo wouldn't have existed. Other than that, it probably would've been the same thing.

Oh? I never knew that. I would have liked that, actually! I can't stand Rolo.

What I was always told is that a lot of things that felt rushed or out of nowhere were going to be much more explained and that there was originally going to be more build-up to the betrayal or Charles and Marianne's plot and so on. And that those Knight dudes would have been fleshed out way more.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on September 16, 2012, 01:18:33 AM
I've recently been re-watching 2 particular anime series in bits and pieces, but I honestly have to say;

I think that Trigun is a better show than Cowboy Bebop. Don't get me wrong, Cowboy Bebop is still one of my favorite anime ever and is easily one of the most influential, but....I'd be lying if I said that I loved every single second of it. Some episodes can be boring and sometimes the series can get too wrapped up in being stylistic that it loses me for quite a few moments before it does anything to catch my interest again. That's just how I feel. Trigun has a good story, compelling characters, and is constantly entertaining. Its not as influential or as "expertly crafted" as Cowboy Bebop (as some would say), and it has far inferior animation, but its just a lot more interesting and entertaining for me to watch.

Exactly how I feel. I also like Outlaw Star more than CB. I remember you saying you like OS more than both of them.

You know, Rintaro Okabe wasn't that cool of a main character. He was hammy and eccentric, yes, but most of his personality was tied down to his relationships with the female characters instead of his own introspection. But then, I guess that's natural when you're a VN protagonist.

As much as I don't like the guy, Jerid Messa is the Gundam character I sympathize the most with. He's a hardass, but it's only due to the environment he's in. The few times he's allowed to show kindness to another person gets horribly dashed, while any efforts to become a better person come at a horrible price. He acts as if murder is natural in war, yet gets pissed as all hell when one of his own friends loses their life. Just one moment of being a douche was what led him into a crazed bloodshed, something that the UC era does not treat kindly.

I don't care about Kick-Heart.

At all.

I don't even like Yuasa's work. Tatami Galaxy was a pretentious bore with any clever points stretched into monotony.

I like the licensed soundtracks of DBZ's movie dubs. Sure they reduce the movies to little more than really long AMV's, but let's be honest, are any movies based on SJ properties worth anything other than cheap entertainment and AMV's?

Yeah, fair enough point.

Although, while not technically movies, I loved the Bardock and History of Trunks specials, and I was ticked off with the licensed tracks in those features since both of them were actually serious stories and were quite good on top of that. I felt that those deserved a lot more respect than what they initially got from FUNimation, but then again the FUNimation dubs of those features were how I initially viewed and got into them, anyways, so I still enjoyed them at their core either way.

As for the plethora of mediocre to shit DBZ movies, though, I suppose the crappy use of the licensed tracks were fair game, since those movies weren't really all that entertaining to begin with, anyways (though I do have a lot of nostalgic love for Tree of Might and Revenge of Cooler).

Well, the use of the licensed tracks was actually pretty decent at times (mainly the intro, and the piece used for when Trunks first go's Super Saiyan after finding Gohan's body), but yeah, those two specials actually had merit to them unlike the movies.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on November 21, 2012, 09:46:55 PM
As for the plethora of mediocre to shit DBZ movies, though, I suppose the crappy use of the licensed tracks were fair game, since those movies weren't really all that entertaining to begin with, anyways (though I do have a lot of nostalgic love for Tree of Might and Revenge of Cooler).

It helps that most of said movies consist of nothing but fighting poorly-characterized (yet still cool-looking) villains and their even more underdeveloped minions.

Whose minions were still more powerful than all of Goku's friends.  :sweat:

I was thinking about how they need a movie where the other characters actually triumph against henchmen. I'm sick of Piccolo getting blown away. Hell, I was sick of at during freaking Tree Of Might.

At least Piccolo got taken down by the main villain in Tree of Might, the rest of the Z-Fighter weren't so lucky.

Hopefully the upcoming movie will make the Z-Fighters awesome again.

Had I seen this topic in the early part of last year or 2011 I could've went ham on it since around that time anime fans in general pissed me off, but nowadays I don't think about stuff like this as much. I do appreciate the topic, though since not everything is all goody goody. I can still go in a little bit. We'll see once I start typing :).

-Anime Fans
I should probably address what type of anime fan, but I don't know the lingo for that stuff, so I'll leave it as a general thing for now. Anyway, I grow so tired of talking about anime with other folks on forums these days because of their sensitivity level. It's like if you bring up 1 problem with a series that's highly regarded as one of the best people are ready to bite your head off. The holy trinity comes to mind for this. I can bring of both good and bad qualities of Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece, but folks ignore everything you say that's good about the trio and bite your head off for what you don't like about it.

DBZ is another one. Oh, how I used to love to call people out (but I won't), but not until I joined Toonzone, I never found myself growing to hate DBZ the way I do now. It's strange, because the forums I come from, folks never cared for DBZ. They found it as mindless screaming and fighting (at that time I didn't care, as long as there were great fights), but at the same time I understood where they were coming from. Now we get to Toonzone, it's the reverse. I always had a knack for going back to DBZ back in the day since it's what I grew up on. Back when I was 24 that started to change, especially when you're introduced to newer series with qualities you prefer. There were somethings in DBZ that I've grown to hate, and the reliance of Goku is one, and I brought that up and I got a mouthful (Are you serious? Trying to make DBZ seem as if it's a deep series, really?), which brings me to my next point. Fans think they need to defend any and everything that comes off as negative. I can understand if you want to have a conversation and whatnot, but there's also a point where folks just need to sit there and shut the hell up. It's DBZ for crying out loud. I understand everything about it. I don't need folk trying to explain to me why ______ relies on Goku.

Gotta go in on folks that love to recommend certain series just because it's the pinnacle of anime. You know who I'm talking about, Neon Genesis Evangelion lovers. I understand it's not all of you, because most folk understand it's either a love it or hate it series, and some also take into account of what others are looking for, but you have some that recommend it because it's "that" anime that needs to be seen just because...... I personally hate the show, and could've choked the person that recommended it to me. Had I known that the series was as psychological as it was/is and the characters would've bothered me to the point to where I could've chucked my remote through my tv, I would've told that person to piss off and have a coke and a smile. I'm an action person that likes fights first and foremost with loving anything samurai following next. Even if "plot" is not exactly high up on my list for why I watch anime does not mean I don't pay attention to it if I can follow it, so why in the hell are you recommending NGE to me?

Last but not least, sub vs dub stuff. Once again, Toonzone, I remember this topic coming up, and I respect opinions on both sides, but there was one person that said something along the lines of anime are "meant" to be watched in their original form (music and all). All I'll say is WHAT?

It's people with these kinds of mentalities that kills stuff for me. Probably not so much now since I just brush stuff off my shoulders and move on (I'm 28. I don't have time to be getting into arguments over childish things), but, you would think at that time, 4 years ago, you want to draw as many people into anime as you can, not kill the interest of other folks. I don't know if these things still goes on since I don't really participate in much about anime in general these days, but I can only imagine it still taking place here and there.

Anyway, got all that I needed to get off my chest.

Yeah, a lot of that shit's pretty familiar within fandoms.

People who only like Fate/Zero for Rider and Waver are dummies. >:(

-The first season of Full Metal Panic! from Gonzo is better than what most people give it credit for, with a few crappy episodes aside.

-Full Metal Panic! The Second Raid (and maybe Fumoffu to a much lesser extent) is the only series ever produced by Kyoto Animation that has appealed to me. That said, its one of my favorite anime ever, at that.

-The English dub for Full Metal Panic! is better (read: more entertaining for me to listen to; as far as OPINIONS go for those who don't get it) than the Japanese voice-acting. I say this as someone who watched the entire series in Japanese with English subtitles, first.

-The English dub for Black Lagoon is better than the Japanese voice-acting. Same as above.

-Samurai Champloo is a pretty hit or miss show. Some episodes are good, but quite a few are downright boring.

-Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood (and the manga, at that) has a really weak and underwhelming ending.

-Hunter X Hunter (1999) is the best version of the series by far (better than the manga as well, for the parts that it actually covers). The 2011 version is still a good watch, though.

-To be honest, I only really care for the Red Jacket series of Lupin the 3rd (as well as the short Lupin series that came out just last year). I honestly couldn't really get into either the Green Jacket (unless you count The Castle of Cagliostro) or Pink Jacket series.

-Digimon Adventure 02 is still a fun series if you can look past all of its faults, which it does admittedly have a lot of. The ending to it is garbage, though. I'll agree on that for sure.

-The Sonic the Hedgehog OVA is currently the best cartoon animated version of Sonic that I have seen. It doesn't take itself that seriously and is short but entertaining to watch, terrible English dub aside.

Have you ever watched Frontier, Ensatsu-ken?

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on January 24, 2013, 10:17:36 PM-Samurai Champloo is a pretty hit or miss show. Some episodes are good, but quite a few are downright boring.

I'm going to add my own opinion that Mugen is a terrible one note character with absolutely no depth.

It's like they wanted to out-cool Spike Spiegal but completely missed his endearing traits and added nothing to make up for it.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on January 24, 2013, 10:32:37 PM
Have you ever watched Frontier, Ensatsu-ken?

No, and I don't think that I'll ever plan to. Same for Digimon Savers.

I do plan on finishing at least the first season of Xros Wars, though, eventually.

QuoteI'm going to add my own opinion that Mugen is a terrible one note character with absolutely no depth.

It's like they wanted to out-cool Spike Spiegal but completely missed his endearing traits and added nothing to make up for it.

My main problem with Mugen is that he's just flat-out unlikable. Spike could occasionally come off as an ass, though that was intentional whenever it happened, and for the most part his character was likable because he had a more sympathetic and down to earth side of him. It felt like with Mugen they just tried to capitalize on the "coolness" factor of Spike without keeping in any of the substance that made Spike interesting.

I've only seen the first four episodes of Samurai Champloo, but I  always thought that Mugen wasn't meant to be likable outside of battle?

Quote from: Rynnec on January 24, 2013, 10:48:10 PM
I've only seen the first four episodes of Samurai Champloo, but I  always thought that Mugen wasn't meant to be likable outside of battle?

IMO, he's not likeable at all at any moment in the show. The guy could be replaced by a sadistic talking sword and the show would be no different in the end.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on January 24, 2013, 10:40:46 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on January 24, 2013, 10:32:37 PM
Have you ever watched Frontier, Ensatsu-ken?

No, and I don't think that I'll ever plan to. Same for Digimon Savers.

I do plan on finishing at least the first season of Xros Wars, though, eventually.

I know gsf loves it, but you're not missing much by skipping Frontier.

Quote

QuoteI'm going to add my own opinion that Mugen is a terrible one note character with absolutely no depth.

It's like they wanted to out-cool Spike Spiegal but completely missed his endearing traits and added nothing to make up for it.

My main problem with Mugen is that he's just flat-out unlikable. Spike could occasionally come off as an ass, though that was intentional whenever it happened, and for the most part his character was likable because he had a more sympathetic and down to earth side of him. It felt like with Mugen they just tried to capitalize on the "coolness" factor of Spike without keeping in any of the substance that made Spike interesting.

That's basically my number 1 issue with Champloo is that it is too reliant on flash. Cowboy Bebop had a lot of character development, but SC did nothing for characters like Mugen and expected us to care for him.

Why should I like Mugen? He's a completely unlikeable jerk and frequently does the wrong thing for shallow reasons. Or no reason.

Fair points for Samurai Champloo.

Quote from: SparkThat's basically my number 1 issue with Champloo is that it is too reliant on flash. Cowboy Bebop had a lot of character development, but SC did nothing for characters like Mugen and expected us to care for him.

That's probably the #1 reason I like Samurai Champloo so much. Well, to be more precise, 1st thing I look for is action, next is samurai, but then again, I am very bias when it comes to samurai stuff. As for Mugen, I like him, and think he's funny, but then again I think that depends on what you consider funny. He just so happens to be one of the characters I actually find funny considering there aren't many anime/characters out there that I'd laugh at. But when it comes to the comparison between CB and SC, don't get me wrong, I like character development as well, probably not as much as other people (it's the 3rd thing I look for), but the flashy stuff takes precedence over everything else.

To be honest, I don't really have a high opinion on the oleo-resin species. After all, the Jatoba tree casts much of a blight upon the environment. I don't care about how it's techinically an ecosystem all on its own just because of housing a swarm of insects. My inner ecologist pays no care towards anime at all.

I do remember his origin episode which made little to no sense in explaining why he was the way he was. It was just, "yeah then he suddenly became a jerk, thanks for stopping by!"

But rule 1, if I don't like the main character I'm not likely to enjoy the show.

But hey, obviously the show wasn't for me.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on January 25, 2013, 02:36:45 PM
I do remember his origin episode which made little to no sense in explaining why he was the way he was. It was just, "yeah then he suddenly became a jerk, thanks for stopping by!"

But rule 1, if I don't like the main character I'm not likely to enjoy the show.

But hey, obviously the show wasn't for me.

It made perfect sense. Mugen became colder over the years and it showed when he remet the girl.

Quote from: gunswordfist on January 25, 2013, 06:17:18 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on January 25, 2013, 02:36:45 PM
I do remember his origin episode which made little to no sense in explaining why he was the way he was. It was just, "yeah then he suddenly became a jerk, thanks for stopping by!"

But rule 1, if I don't like the main character I'm not likely to enjoy the show.

But hey, obviously the show wasn't for me.

It made perfect sense. Mugen became colder over the years and it showed when he remet the girl.

But why did he grow colder. I don't recall there being any events mentioned or talked about. Just that he was different.

But again, if that's good enough for you than it's probably because I'm expecting something else from the show than what it was giving me.

Well, here's the hard opinion...

...I do not dislike Panty & Stocking after tonight.

I love it... :o

What sorcery is this?  :SHOCK:

Quote from: Rynnec on January 28, 2013, 03:03:29 AM
What sorcery is this?  :SHOCK:

All will be explained soon... let's say Tuesday or Wednesday.

I've lost them.  :'(

Next Foggle will become a TTGL fan.

Quote from: Avaitor on January 28, 2013, 02:42:08 PM
Next Foggle will become a TTGL fan.

That I can live with.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on January 28, 2013, 02:40:23 PM
I've lost them.  :'(

I'm pretty sure Insommy and Dalek don't actually like PSG, they just find it tolerable.

I think it's great, though... when it's dubbed and doesn't involve poop, anyway.

Quote from: Avaitor on January 28, 2013, 02:42:08 PM
Next Foggle will become a TTGL fan.

Naw, that one I've actually seen most of and still don't like.

So, here's an unpopular opinion I now have after having re-watched the movie Akira again:

The movie is good. Not great. Not amazing. Not bad by any stretch, either. Just good. Its a solid movie, but I no longer quite see it as the masterpiece that many others do, nor can I ever identify with the few but outspoken haters of the movie. I do really like it, but just not as much as I used to, and apparently not as much as most other people.

That said, I'm still really interested in reading the manga, which I hear is much better when it comes to developing and elaborating on the depth of the characters. That was probably what held the movie back for me when I watched it a 2nd time. I just felt that other than Tetsuo, no other character really got that much focus to the point of really being all that interesting. I mean, other than him, Kaneda was certainly a likable character, but we never even really learned that much about him in the movie, or at least I didn't.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on January 28, 2013, 04:46:45 PM
So, here's an unpopular opinion I now have after having re-watched the movie Akira again:

The movie is good. Not great. Not amazing. Not bad by any stretch, either. Just good. Its a solid movie, but I no longer quite see it as the masterpiece that many others do, nor can I ever identify with the few but outspoken haters of the movie. I do really like it, but just not as much as I used to, and apparently not as much as most other people.

That said, I'm still really interested in reading the manga, which I hear is much better when it comes to developing and elaborating on the depth of the characters. That was probably what held the movie back for me when I watched it a 2nd time. I just felt that other than Tetsuo, no other character really got that much focus to the point of really being all that interesting. I mean, other than him, Kaneda was certainly a likable character, but we never even really learned that much about him in the movie, or at least I didn't.

The movie is more amazing for what it accomplished in animation, direction, and atmosphere (the music is pretty great too) at the time than the actual rushed plot. When I saw the original dub I kept waiting for Kaneda to yell "Shredder!" over and over.

That said, it's a decent sci-fi tale. The manga's plot is more fleshed out from what I read.

I just can't get into P&S. It feels like APC on a 24/7 basis to me.

Quote from: Avaitor on January 28, 2013, 05:10:10 PM
I just can't get into P&S. It feels like APC on a 24/7 basis to me.

It's really nothing like APC aside from the first short. Seriously, it's not that gross most of the time, and it's usually pretty funny.

Eh its growing on me.

We have all agreed that episode 6 was amazing. Seriously guys, at least watch that one before you judge. And make sure it's dubbed.

Is that the Transformers parody?

Quote from: Rynnec on January 29, 2013, 10:04:18 PM
Is that the Transformers parody?

It's the first one with Scanty and Kneesocks.

Panty and Stocking had our curiosity... now it has our attention.

Quote from: Foggle on January 29, 2013, 10:01:17 PM
We have all agreed that episode 6 was amazing. Seriously guys, at least watch that one before you judge. And make sure it's dubbed.

But

no rolling R's.

Quote from: Rosalinas Spare Wand on January 29, 2013, 10:32:30 PM

Quote from: Foggle on January 29, 2013, 10:01:17 PM
We have all agreed that episode 6 was amazing. Seriously guys, at least watch that one before you judge. And make sure it's dubbed.

But

no rolling R's.

Weaboo, please.

Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on January 29, 2013, 10:42:35 PM

Quote from: Rosalinas Spare Wand on January 29, 2013, 10:32:30 PM

Quote from: Foggle on January 29, 2013, 10:01:17 PM
We have all agreed that episode 6 was amazing. Seriously guys, at least watch that one before you judge. And make sure it's dubbed.

But

no rolling R's.

Weaboo, please.

(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi3.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Foriginal%2F000%2F186%2F553%2F1266784038597.jpg&hash=55771f0e4f1d5da84641d59aa34072d3ad42cbc3)

Akira puts me to sleep.

I love the Soul Society arc of Bleach. One of my favorite arcs in anime and manga. The rest of the series is filty, shit-covered, garbage, though.

Quote from: Cartoon X on February 02, 2013, 11:16:14 PM
I love the Soul Society arc of Bleach. One of my favorite arcs in anime and manga. The rest of the series is filty, shit-covered, garbage, though.

The only thing unpopular about that opinion is that you like any part of Bleach.

So, this opinion is really out there, but Kenshiro from Fist of the North Star comes off as a sadist to me. I should clarify that I'm sure this was completely unintentional in regard to how the character was written, but just think about it for a second. Not only does the guy mercilessly kill any thugs or villains who stand in his way (and sometimes they don't even do anything to him directly), but have any of you guys ever stopped to think about how elaborate and over-the-top some of his kills are? He hits pressure points that can seemingly allow him to control his victims (and yes, I specifically use the term "victims" here) to perform any absurd action(s) of his choosing. At one point, he literally has 2 guys HUG EACH OTHER TO DEATH! Well, OK, its more like he has them lethally squeeze the life out of each other, but it ends up looking like they are hugging, which is just an absurd scene to watch. In another case he has a guy strangle himself to death with his own nun-chaku. But really, I'm dead serious when I say that the guy's kills are so insanely over-the-top sometimes that he really has to be toying with his enemies out of sheer boredom. I mean, we've seen him kill guys normally before by just hitting their pressure points and having their heads explode, so why doesn't he just use that all the time? It seems the most practical and efficient, as its basically the quickest his kills ever come (at about 7 seconds, if I'm not mistaken), and in the end all that really matters is if the guy is dead or not. Yet, he constantly goes out of his way to kill so many of the bad guys in such a nonsensical fashion for no other reason than what I can assume is to express his own personal sense of creativity....with human lives. Yeah, I think my point stands pretty solidly.

Railgun is actually a deranged fanfic where Magneto and Nightcrawler are teenage girls in a one-sided romance.

I haven't seen FotNS outside of clips, but from what I've seen, most of Kenshiro's victims kinda deserve it. :sweat:

Quote from: Rynnec on February 10, 2013, 11:39:05 PM
I haven't seen FotNS outside of clips, but from what I've seen, most of Kenshiro's victims kinda deserve it. :sweat:

I'm not questioning whether they deserve to die or not. I'm questioning what the fuck is going through Kenshiro's mind when he comes up with some of those wacky ways to off his victims. It still makes no sense as to why he'd have a guy strangle himself or what not as opposed to just straight-up killing him without any needless gimmicks. :thinkin:

Kenshiro just likes to test his brand-new kung-fu skills on people.

Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on February 11, 2013, 12:03:25 AM
Kenshiro just likes to test his brand-new kung-fu skills on people.

And personally I find that he does so to downright sadistic degrees, sometimes.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on February 11, 2013, 12:08:28 AM

Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on February 11, 2013, 12:03:25 AM
Kenshiro just likes to test his brand-new kung-fu skills on people.

And personally I find that he does so to downright sadistic degrees, sometimes.

He's a man who has seen the most sadistic atrocities committed by human hands. A war crime comes off as sport with that kind of desensitizing.

The Code Geass soundtrack is better than Bebop's soundtrack, but only just barely.

Quote from: Graywulf on March 05, 2013, 06:32:24 PM
Code Geass is better than Bebop but only just barely.

This is why I've been learning to stop skimming.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on February 10, 2013, 11:05:00 PM
So, this opinion is really out there, but Kenshiro from Fist of the North Star comes off as a sadist to me. I should clarify that I'm sure this was completely unintentional in regard to how the character was written, but just think about it for a second. Not only does the guy mercilessly kill any thugs or villains who stand in his way (and sometimes they don't even do anything to him directly), but have any of you guys ever stopped to think about how elaborate and over-the-top some of his kills are? He hits pressure points that can seemingly allow him to control his victims (and yes, I specifically use the term "victims" here) to perform any absurd action(s) of his choosing. At one point, he literally has 2 guys HUG EACH OTHER TO DEATH! Well, OK, its more like he has them lethally squeeze the life out of each other, but it ends up looking like they are hugging, which is just an absurd scene to watch. In another case he has a guy strangle himself to death with his own nun-chaku. But really, I'm dead serious when I say that the guy's kills are so insanely over-the-top sometimes that he really has to be toying with his enemies out of sheer boredom. I mean, we've seen him kill guys normally before by just hitting their pressure points and having their heads explode, so why doesn't he just use that all the time? It seems the most practical and efficient, as its basically the quickest his kills ever come (at about 7 seconds, if I'm not mistaken), and in the end all that really matters is if the guy is dead or not. Yet, he constantly goes out of his way to kill so many of the bad guys in such a nonsensical fashion for no other reason than what I can assume is to express his own personal sense of creativity....with human lives. Yeah, I think my point stands pretty solidly.

lmao. I love this show. The whole point of elaborate kills like those is that they are supposed to be ironic.

I always thought of Kenshiro being the embodiment of karma in the FOTNS universe. "You are already dead" sort of takes on a new meaning when you think of it that way.

Just to be clear if anyone didn't get it, I was deliberately being sarcastic when I called Kenshiro a sadist. Obviously I know that this isn't the case. I just wanted to point out how absurd the kills in FOTNS are in a humorous way.

At any rate, I do love that particular element of the series, but I have to admit that I still never even finished the first arc due to the repetition of the show. I have heard that the series does get much better as it goes along, and I'll make sure to watch more of it someday, but I suppose I'd be better off sticking with the manga to get straight to the good stuff, as Toei's filler material can range from being pretty decent (Dragon Ball) to being an absurd waist of time (One Piece), and I don't want to take that chance with a series like FOTNS.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 15, 2013, 09:38:15 PM
Toei's filler material can range from being pretty decent (Dragon Ball) to being an absurd waist of time (One Piece)

I actually really enjoy a lot of the filler in One Piece in the earlier episodes (by that I mean up until Enies Lobby  :sly:). I think the extra Davy Back Fight events in the anime made for really good episodes and upped the tension in the arc, and were pretty humorously written. Ocean Dream, which follows it, was really fun too, and I feel it was a nice set up to The Water 7/Enies Lobby arc. There are a lot of weak filler episodes too, but none of it was really off putting to me until Marineford, where it killed the tension a lot of the time. Toei's super long ass recaps, which take up a fourth of the episode nowadays, kinda pisses me off too, and made Fishman Island, which was already a rather lame arc, a freaking ordeal to get through, and I gave up after five episodes of it. The latest few episodes, adapting Punk Hazard, gives me hope they are getting better with their use of filler (although they seriously need to get rid of those damn recaps. I hate them so much, you don't even want to know....).

Quote from: Cartoon X on March 15, 2013, 11:13:21 PM
I actually really enjoy a lot of the filler in One Piece in the earlier episodes (by that I mean up until Enies Lobby  :sly:). I think the extra Davy Back Fight events in the anime made for really good episodes and upped the tension in the arc, and were pretty humorously written. Ocean Dream, which follows it, was really fun too, and I feel it was a nice set up to The Water 7/Enies Lobby arc. There are a lot of weak filler episodes too, but none of it was really off putting to me until Marineford, where it killed the tension a lot of the time.

Eh, To each their own, then, but I just could never get into One Piece's fillers. They weren't horrible, but like I said, they felt like a waist of time to me, personally (in that they were boring).

QuoteToei's super long ass recaps, which take up a fourth of the episode nowadays, kinda pisses me off too, and made Fishman Island, which was already a rather lame arc, a freaking ordeal to get through, and I gave up after five episodes of it. The latest few episodes, adapting Punk Hazard, gives me hope they are getting better with their use of filler (although they seriously need to get rid of those damn recaps. I hate them so much, you don't even want to know....).

Oh yes, those fucking recaps always get on my nerves. Sure, you can skip them, but its a fucking cheap-ass way for Toei to slow down the pacing of the series. Nobody really needs that much of a reminder of the really short list of events that were covered in the previous episode from just a week ago. Toei is clearly just dragging things out as much as possible.

And yeah, the Fishman Island arc was pretty damn boring. To be honest, One Piece has steadily been losing my interest because of how formulaic and bland the whole thing is getting. Nothing Oda since Enies Lobby has really topped it. I did relatively enjoy the series up to Marineford (though, I wasn't really a fan of Skypiea), but ever since then the manga has just been a chore for me to read.

To be fair, I do think that One Piece as a whole is still a lot better than what most of the people on this board give it credit for, but even so, it was getting harder and harder for me to defend this series at all the more boring the later arcs got for me, and at this point the current manga has kind of killed my interest in the series. That said, I still attest that the early parts of One Piece are legitimately good shonen material. Its not necessarily great in my book, but I did enjoy it for what it was.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 15, 2013, 11:46:20 PM

Eh, To each their own, then, but I just could never get into One Piece's fillers. They weren't horrible, but like I said, they felt like a waist of time to me, personally (in that they were boring).

I was never bored during a lot of the One Piece filler episodes, but it's true that unlike Dragonball's you can pretty much take them away and the story would play the same. Although, I find that the Davy Back filler episodes made that particular arc better than it's manga counterpart myself. I also feel that the embedded filler in a lot of canon episodes nicely used, although starting around Enies Lobby they get into DBZ levels of pointlessness, but I didn't find them nearly as offensively boring or painfully mediocre as DBZ's until they adapted Marineford and Fishman Island.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 15, 2013, 11:46:20 PM

Oh yes, those fucking recaps always get on my nerves. Sure, you can skip them, but its a fucking cheap-ass way for Toei to slow down the pacing of the series. Nobody really needs that much of a reminder of the really short list of events that were covered in the previous episode from just a week ago. Toei is clearly just dragging things out as much as possible.

And yeah, the Fishman Island arc was pretty damn boring. To be honest, One Piece has steadily been losing my interest because of how formulaic and bland the whole thing is getting. Nothing Oda since Enies Lobby has really topped it. I did relatively enjoy the series up to Marineford (though, I wasn't really a fan of Skypiea), but ever since then the manga has just been a chore for me to read.

To be fair, I do think that One Piece as a whole is still a lot better than what most of the people on this board give it credit for, but even so, it was getting harder and harder for me to defend this series at all the more boring the later arcs got for me, and at this point the current manga has kind of killed my interest in the series. That said, I still attest that the early parts of One Piece are legitimately good shonen material. Its not necessarily great in my book, but I did enjoy it for what it was.

Somehow I feel I'm the only One Piece fan who really enjoyed Skypeia, but I guess I can understand the reasons of why people who don't like it (I personally found the Shandorian's goal, the Noland stuff, Eneru, and the actual fights to be really great, but I guess that's just me  :P).

I didn't think Punk Hazard was boring in the least. It was a lot of fun, with some great fights and overall was around Impel Down level quality to me. With the crew now going up against Doflamingo and his crew, I'm pretty invested in what's going on in whatever this new arc will eventually be called, and am not bored in the slightest.

I don't mind the formulaic nature of One Piece because the stories (with the exception of Fishman Island) are solid and had good character development, which I favor strongly in any series and is the principal reason why I adore this series in the first place. Really, I don't even care that One Piece's arcs take so long because I enjoy watching it to see the journey, not the destination, so unless Oda really drops the ball the way so many other shonen series (Bleach and Fairy Tail, for example) did, I could read the manga for maybe fifteen more years and never get tired of it.

My main problem is precisely with the characters, however. The thing is, they really haven't had any good character development past their own introduction arcs, IMO. In some cases they sort of have, but for the most part Oda just tends to let them fall into their assigned roles and doesn't do much else with them anymore aside from the predictable stuff. The other thing I don't like is how the humor in this series has become overly-reliant on exploiting the Straw Hat Pirates' character flaws (i.e., Luffy is dense, Nami is greedy, Sanji is a pervert, Zoro is bad with directions, etc.). In the early parts of the series, those things were definitely there, but only came up from time to time. I feel that in the current manga, Oda has a tendency to over-exaggerate these characteristics to absurd degrees, which kind of gets on my nerves a bit since it makes the characters seem more and more 2D. Maybe that's just the way that I see it, though.

At any rate, while Punk Hazard was better than Fishman Island, I still couldn't get into it for 2 reasons: For one thing, it felt like way too much was going on for most of the arc, and Oda was trying to juggle too many sub-plots at once (I now like to call that Young Justice Season 2-Syndrome). My other problem was one of the same problems that I had with the Fishman Island arc, in which the characters either felt way too overpowered or the enemies felt way too weak in comparison to the heroes. It made me realize that the reason I could get into the repetitive formula of One Piece before was because it still had me interested in seeing how the Straw Hats would overcome whatever nearly impossible obstacle was in their way, and that's where Oda's writing talents most lie, in how he puts his characters through intense and hard to survive situations. The problem with the Fishman Island and Punk Hazard arcs were that they had almost no tension, and the villains felt like a complete joke because of how strong the Straw Hats now are. I get that Oda is trying to show that they have come along way and can now be considered to be one of the big guns of the Sea, but it makes for boring story-telling when it feels like there's nothing that can really challenge the characters that you're supposed to be rooting for. That said, I'm hoping that this current arc can finally present the Straw Hats with a challenge, once again, now that they are directly in Doflamingo's country and will likely have to confront his strongest soldiers as well as the man himself.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 16, 2013, 02:08:04 PM
My main problem is precisely with the characters, however. The thing is, they really haven't had any good character development past their own introduction arcs, IMO. In some cases they sort of have, but for the most part Oda just tends to let them fall into their assigned roles and doesn't do much else with them anymore aside from the predictable stuff. The other thing I don't like is how the humor in this series has become overly-reliant on exploiting the Straw Hat Pirates' character flaws (i.e., Luffy is dense, Nami is greedy, Sanji is a pervert, Zoro is bad with directions, etc.). In the early parts of the series, those things were definitely there, but only came up from time to time. I feel that in the current manga, Oda has a tendency to over-exaggerate these characteristics to absurd degrees, which kind of gets on my nerves a bit since it makes the characters seem more and more 2D. Maybe that's just the way that I see it, though.

I definately don't agree with the sentiment that the characters haven't had good development past their introduction arcs, but I'll need to have some time to gather evidence for me to prove it well.

As far as the "character flaws" go, I do think that the post-timeskip chapters have had a problem with this, and it has gotten on my nerves, but to tell you the truth only Sanji and Brook's really irk me. I haven't really seen evidence of Zoro and Nami's flaws being overused at all, and Ussop isn't really that much of a coward anymore, just still overly cautious. Franky, Chopper, and Robin's haven't really been used much at all, and personally I don't think Luffy is dense, but merely has a Goku-style naivety to him that sometimes makes him get carried away.

I think the real problem with the character post-timeskip is that Oda is struggling to find ways to give all the crew something to do. In Fishman Island, the crew felt tacked on, and only Luffy felt like he needed to be there for the plot to happen. Quite frankly, Oda just needs to find ways for all the characters to have a bearing on the plot of an arc, like in Thriller Bark where pretty much every character had a role that developed them and moved the plot foward. In Punk Hazard, I would say only Chopper and Luffy felt properly intergrated into the arc (although Zoro and Sanji had some good moments too), but Law, Kinemon, Smoker, and Tashigi made things interesting and did interesting things that kept it fun. It was a massive improvement from Fishman Island where only Luffy seemed to be in the spotlight, and I'm hoping Oda can find a ways to use all the characters effectively in this new arc, perhaps even reaching Thriller Bark level quality.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 16, 2013, 02:08:04 PM
At any rate, while Punk Hazard was better than Fishman Island, I still couldn't get into it for 2 reasons: For one thing, it felt like way too much was going on for most of the arc, and Oda was trying to juggle too many sub-plots at once (I now like to call that Young Justice Season 2-Syndrome). My other problem was one of the same problems that I had with the Fishman Island arc, in which the characters either felt way too overpowered or the enemies felt way too weak in comparison to the heroes. It made me realize that the reason I could get into the repetitive formula of One Piece before was because it still had me interested in seeing how the Straw Hats would overcome whatever nearly impossible obstacle was in their way, and that's where Oda's writing talents most lie, in how he puts his characters through intense and hard to survive situations. The problem with the Fishman Island and Punk Hazard arcs were that they had almost no tension, and the villains felt like a complete joke because of how strong the Straw Hats now are. I get that Oda is trying to show that they have come along way and can now be considered to be one of the big guns of the Sea, but it makes for boring story-telling when it feels like there's nothing that can really challenge the characters that you're supposed to be rooting for. That said, I'm hoping that this current arc can finally present the Straw Hats with a challenge, once again, now that they are directly in Doflamingo's country and will likely have to confront his strongest soldiers as well as the man himself.

The overpowered nature of the crew now is definately a problem. However, I thought that the villains in Punk Hazard were a definate step up. Caesar had some good threatening moments, Monet gave Zoro and Tashigi quite a bit of trouble, and Virgo was handled fine as well. Franky attacked Baby 5 and Buffalo spontaneously, and the moment when Nami and Ussop took them down came off pretty sweet to me, but I also think they are still dangerous enought to cause trouble for the crew in the new arc. Overall, I would say the villains were a huge set up from the rather generic, boring villains of Fishman Island, where of the only two that felt like they actually mattered, only Van Decken was any fun as an antagonist, while Hodi was just outright lame.

Also, I though there were a lot of "oh crap" moments in Punk Hazard, like in Law's first fight with Smoker and when Ceaser released the SAD gas, whereas I felt nothing for the events of Fishman Island's main story (the Fisher Tiger and Queen Otohime flashback did keep me entertained).

To be perfectly honest, I don't think too many different plot threads were going on in Punk Hazard. They had to free the kids and capture Ceaser. That was it.

There was also Luffy forming an alliance with Law, Law's plot against Doflamingo and his relation to Cesar, Smoker confronting Vergo as a traitor to the Marines, Brownbeard's crew and realization that Cesar had deceived him, the samurai (I can't remember his name) trying to rescue his son, and THEN there were the 2 main plot-points that you mentioned. So yeah, personally I'd say that the arc definitely had a bunch of sub-plots going on.

As for your other points, that's just a difference of perception, I suppose. For the characters, I just don't really feel that they've changed all that much since their own character arcs, aside from getting stronger, with the weaker ones being a little less cowardly than before. I honestly haven't really noticed much more change beyond that, though.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 16, 2013, 03:03:50 PM
There was also Luffy forming an alliance with Law, Law's plot against Doflamingo and his relation to Cesar, Smoker confronting Vergo as a traitor to the Marines, Brownbeard's crew and realization that Cesar had deceived him, the samurai (I can't remember his name) trying to rescue his son, and THEN there were the 2 main plot-points that you mentioned. So yeah, personally I'd say that the arc definitely had a bunch of sub-plots going on.

Those were plot points, but I wouldn't consider any of them full on sub-plots, as they were all related to one of the two plots I outlined earlier. The first four of those  I'd lump into the "capturing Ceaser" plot, especially the first two since they connect with Law's plan to capture Ceaser directly. The last one is a part of the "rescuing the kids" plot, as Momonosuke was one of the kids they were trying to rescue (the samurai's name is Kinemon, by the way).

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 16, 2013, 03:03:50 PM
As for your other points, that's just a difference of perception, I suppose. For the characters, I just don't really feel that they've changed all that much since their own character arcs, aside from getting stronger, with the weaker ones being a little less cowardly than before. I honestly haven't really noticed much more change beyond that, though.

Although the characters personalities dont change much (not that they need to change), I feel the characters grow in small ways in each arc. Like Zoro growing to trust Robin, or Chopper realizing he needs to be able to fight his own battles during Skypeia, for instance. Ussop has grown the most, to the point where he's confident in himself and his abilities and not even much of a coward anymore, which was a process that really developed throughout the entire pre-timeskip story of the series. When I have time later I'll write one gignatic post about how he's grown through each of the arcs, but I want to rewatch some of his episodes/chapters again before I do so.

Quote from: Cartoon X on March 16, 2013, 04:13:37 PM
Those were plot points, but I wouldn't consider any of them full on sub-plots, as they were all related to one of the two plots I outlined earlier. The first four of those  I'd lump into the "capturing Ceaser" plot, especially the first two since they connect with Law's plan to capture Ceaser directly. The last one is a part of the "rescuing the kids" plot, as Momonosuke was one of the kids they were trying to rescue (the samurai's name is Kinemon, by the way).

Plot points to me are stuff that come up and affect the plot but aren't necessarily referenced back to as the plot goes along. Sub-plots mini-plots that develop along with the main plot simultaneously. The stuff I mentioned were pretty much sub-plots as they weren't just single points in the plot that affected it but were resolved themselves right away. For instance, Brownbeard's sub-plot developed as the arc progressed, rather than him finding out right away that Cesar was just using him and his men. He went through a denial phase at first and only gradually accepted that Cesar was evil when he started to show his true colors. The other stuff I mentioned had similar development as the plot went on, so I would definitely count them as sub-plots, myself. Either way you look at it, there was a lot of stuff going on in that arc.

QuoteAlthough the characters personalities dont change much (not that they need to change), I feel the characters grow in small ways in each arc. Like Zoro growing to trust Robin, or Chopper realizing he needs to be able to fight his own battles during Skypeia, for instance. Ussop has grown the most, to the point where he's confident in himself and his abilities and not even much of a coward anymore, which was a process that really developed throughout the entire pre-timeskip story of the series. When I have time later I'll write one gignatic post about how he's grown through each of the arcs, but I want to rewatch some of his episodes/chapters again before I do so.

With stuff like Zoro and Robin, that whole trust thing didn't develop gradually, and really only happened after the course of 1 arc. As far as Ussop goes, I'm not really sure I agree. He's definitely not as much of a coward as he used to be, but he still has a lot of moments where he freaks out at the prospect of going into a dangerous situation. I'd say that he's still not the "brave man of the sea" that he wants to be, yet.

As for some of the other points you mentioned, while they were important character moments that happened, my problem with them is that they aren't really followed-up that well in the series. For instance, Chopper learned to deal with his own fights in Skypiea, but many times after that he still gets scared of strong enemies and tries to avoid fights as much as possible. I feel like characters in One Piece have these great moments that signify changes in their character, but then they regress to their old ways after those moments are over.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 16, 2013, 04:31:39 PM


Plot points to me are stuff that come up and affect the plot but aren't necessarily referenced back to as the plot goes along. Sub-plots mini-plots that develop along with the main plot simultaneously. The stuff I mentioned were pretty much sub-plots as they weren't just single points in the plot that affected it but were resolved themselves right away. For instance, Brownbeard's sub-plot developed as the arc progressed, rather than him finding out right away that Cesar was just using him and his men. He went through a denial phase at first and only gradually accepted that Cesar was evil when he started to show his true colors. The other stuff I mentioned had similar development as the plot went on, so I would definitely count them as sub-plots, myself. Either way you look at it, there was a lot of stuff going on in that arc.

Fair point. But I didn't ever feel too much was going on in the arc myself, and everything resolved pretty well in the end. I guess it's really a matter of perception.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 16, 2013, 04:31:39 PM
With stuff like Zoro and Robin, that whole trust thing didn't develop gradually, and really only happened after the course of 1 arc. As far as Ussop goes, I'm not really sure I agree. He's definitely not as much of a coward as he used to be, but he still has a lot of moments where he freaks out at the prospect of going into a dangerous situation. I'd say that he's still not the "brave man of the sea" that he wants to be, yet.

I always had a sense Zoro was tense around Robin while watching the anime, myself. As Jaya and Skypeia went on, I felt he became less suspicious of her and grew to accept her as a legitimate member of the crew. I think the moment that solidifies this is when he attacked Eneru after he shocked Robin after her gambit to stop him failed. His mistrust of Robin wasn't completely forgotten though, as he is the first crew member to actually consider the possibility that Robin has betrayed them during Water 7, although even then he was willing to actually go and find out for sure alongside the others.

Ussop had a massive inferiority complex. Part of the reason he left the crew was because he felt useless after the Franky Family beat him up, and because he was powerless to save the Going Merry. He gave his all against Luffy, even though he knew he couldn't win, to try to prove to himself he was worthy of staying with the crew, and his loss meant to him that he wasn't. When he adopted the Sogeking persona, he slowly started to become more bold, as he was determined to help his friends. However, some adive from Sanji after he saved him from Jyabura made him realize he had limitations, but that didn't mean there wasn't anything he could do that other couldn't, as he demonstrated later by helping free Robin from Spandam and encouraging Luffy to win his fight against Lucci. Later, he also realized he was also wrong for being childish in his defense of the Going Merry for his own personal reasons, and learned a lesson of humility. However, he became so dependent on the Sogeking personality in Enies Lobby, that he set lower expectations for what he was able to accomplish as Ussop. That's why he became Sogeking in his fight against Perona; he didn't think he could beat her as himself. At the end of the fight, though, he came to recognize Sogeking's power was his own power and he could defeat opponents as plain old Ussop. After reading the news about Ace's death after the events of Marineford, he realizes that he has to get stronger in order to help Luffy achieve his dream, and accepts Hecules' training. As his first reapearence in the timeskip shows, he's no longer afraid of getting into figths, and acts a lot more confidently. His still a little cautious, for sure, but I feel he has pretty much become a real man of the sea at this point.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 16, 2013, 04:31:39 PM
As for some of the other points you mentioned, while they were important character moments that happened, my problem with them is that they aren't really followed-up that well in the series. For instance, Chopper learned to deal with his own fights in Skypiea, but many times after that he still gets scared of strong enemies and tries to avoid fights as much as possible. I feel like characters in One Piece have these great moments that signify changes in their character, but then they regress to their old ways after those moments are over.

Getting scared and avoiding fights doesn't feel like a regression for Chopper. Keep in mind he can be rather childish at times, plus he's fairly pacifistic for the most part. That's just who he is. However, he's not afraid to fight in order to help his friends, especially when a lot is on the line. His stuggle against Kumadori, where he pushed himself to a point of exhaustion and took a gamble on using a third rumble ball despite the consequences, or helping the rest of the crew against Oz and the Pacifista in Sabody, are some good examples. That being said, I can see why you feel characters in One Piece regress, but personally I feel their sense of what they are capable of and what they have to do change throughout all the arcs, and the only thing that remains constant is their general personalities and their interactions with each other. Overall, when you get down to it, I just like these characters and like seeing them in all sorts of crazy situations and tough battles, but that's just how I am I suppose.  :P

-I don't get why people call Outlaw star a "stupid" show. Is it intentionally silly? Yes. I like that aspect of it, personally, though I can admit that Fred is a really badly written gay stereotype, which makes me kind of ashamed that I still find him to work as a comic relief character, but other than that I never felt the show ever came off as unintentionally idiotic. Personally, I think its a worthy piece of the space western trilogy, even if its not as good as the other 2 series.

-Full Metal Panic! The Second Raid (and to a lesser extent Fumoffu), is the only good thing to have ever come out of Kyoto Animation. I know I've probably said this before, but it doesn't hurt for me to say it again.

-Not only am I OK with Dragon Ball having been included in our top 20 for our animated series list, but I honestly feel that it would have been perfectly justified as a top 10 entry, as I continue to re-watch the series. Yes, you guys can disagree with me all that you want, but I just can't see this series as anything other than a true animation classic. Once again, its a shame that so many people can still confuse this series with Dragon Ball Z. They couldn't be more different.

-Aizen from Bleach was never really a good villain (read: well-written). People really only remembered him because of a single plot-twist, which admittedly was pretty damn cool at the time. Other than that, his actual motivation, ambitions, and overall persona as a villain is really weak, and I don't think he really deserves his status as being considered one of the best shonen villains of all time. There's just no way he's up there with the likes of villains like Frieza, Sensui, and Shishio, IMO.

-To be honest, I actually don't really hate Naruto as much as I let on. The thing is, I've always considered it to be a series with good ambitions that is really only hampered by an amateurish author (sorry, I just don't think Kishimoto knows how to handle emotional depth on any level whatsoever). If this series were handled by a more experienced writer with the same general story, it could have actually been a shonen classic. As it stands, it really falls in the mix with the type of shonen that I just can't get into thanks to the characters either being bland, unlikable, or downright forgettable, which has always been my main problem with this series, rather than its story or anything else of that sort.

-I still think that Zoids: Chaotic Century/Guardian Force is the best mecha anime that I have seen aside from FMP and Gundam 0080, and its probably the most underrated toy franchise show out there.

-I like that Digimon Tamers as a "kid's psychological show" is better and more entertaining than most of the adult "psychological" anime that I've tried to get into but never could. Maybe I'm just stupid or something, but at least Tamers has good writing and doesn't come off as pretentious drivel. That said, yeah, its still a fucking kid's show, but for what it is, the writing is surprisingly pretty intelligent and thoughtful.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 17, 2013, 02:29:48 PM
-I don't get why people call Outlaw star a "stupid" show. Is it intentionally silly? Yes. I like that aspect of it, personally, though I can admit that Fred is a really badly written gay stereotype, which makes me kind of ashamed that I still find him to work as a comic relief character, but other than that I never felt the show ever came off as unintentionally idiotic. Personally, I think its a worthy piece of the space western trilogy, even if its not as good as the other 2 series.

People think Outlaw Star is a stupid show?  ??? I thought people had nothing but nostalgia and praise for it. Anyway, I don't enjoy the show as much as Trigun, Cowboy Bebop, and Gun X Sword but it's a good series and holds up well when I rewatch it.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 17, 2013, 02:29:48 PM
-Not only am I OK with Dragon Ball having been included in our top 20 for our animated series list, but I honestly feel that it would have been perfectly justified as a top 10 entry, as I continue to re-watch the series. Yes, you guys can disagree with me all that you want, but I just can't see this series as anything other than a true animation classic. Once again, its a shame that so many people can still confuse this series with Dragon Ball Z. They couldn't be more different.

I'm just as big a fan of Dragonball as you (heck, the series means so much to me I might be a bigger one), but I'm not sure I'd rank the series over Yu Yu Hakusho, Johnny Quest, or even Gargoyles, as I feel that those are high quality and important action shows as well, and although Dragonball is a classic work of animation, those other series had attributes and significance to them that made their placement higher than Dragonball on your list well deserved. I do think that Dragonball should have been higher than Mobile Suit Gundam though...

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 17, 2013, 02:29:48 PM
-Aizen from Bleach was never really a good villain (read: well-written). People really only remembered him because of a single plot-twist, which admittedly was pretty damn cool at the time. Other than that, his actual motivation, ambitions, and overall persona as a villain is really weak, and I don't think he really deserves his status as being considered one of the best shonen villains of all time. There's just no way he's up there with the likes of villains like Frieza, Sensui, and Shishio, IMO.

Come now, is this really an unpopular opinion. :awesome:

While I will always hold that the twist at the end of the Soul Society arc worked well, there is no charisma or even depth to Aizen's character. He's overpowered. He stoic. He's boring. And contradictory because of Kubo's shit writing. I still am not sure what he was ever trying to accomplish, because nothing the character ever did after Soul Society ever made any sense. Just a terrible villain, plain and simple.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 17, 2013, 02:29:48 PM
-To be honest, I actually don't really hate Naruto as much as I let on. The thing is, I've always considered it to be a series with good ambitions that is really only hampered by an amateurish author (sorry, I just don't think Kishimoto knows how to handle emotional depth on any level whatsoever). If this series were handled by a more experienced writer with the same general story, it could have actually been a shonen classic. As it stands, it really falls in the mix with the type of shonen that I just can't get into thanks to the characters either being bland, unlikable, or downright forgettable, which has always been my main problem with this series, rather than its story or anything else of that sort.

I had some nostalgia for Naruto that made me believe the first 141 episodes of the original series were good....but, rewatching the series on Toonami, I can't stand it. I mean, I thought the first episode held up really well and was actually better than I remembered, but every other episode has been progressively more and more of a pain to watch. Not just because of the terrible pacing and cheapness of the anime (the music is still good, though), but I can't stand any of the characters any more, not even Kakashi. The Zabuza arc is honestly a very paint by the numbers and slow shonen arc, and Haku and Zabuza are honestly rather boring villains. I dunno. I've been pretty disillusioned with the manga for some time now as well. I just dont like this series anymore. It doesn't hold up to me as well as other Toonami shows from back in the day like Zatch Bell, Megas XLR, or Bobobo-Bo Bo-bobo (not counting 4Kids One Piece. Obviously it holds up better than that). Maybe once Toonami gets to the Forest of Death portion of the Chunin Exams it'll start being as enjoyable as I remembered, but right now I honestly feel like I'm wasting more time watching and reading the series than I am watching and reading Bleach, which kills me.

Quote from: Cartoon X on March 17, 2013, 03:16:02 PM
People think Outlaw Star is a stupid show?  ??? I thought people had nothing but nostalgia and praise for it. Anyway, I don't enjoy the show as much as Trigun, Cowboy Bebop, and Gun X Sword but it's a good series and holds up well when I rewatch it.

I've seen a lot of people accuse it of being stupid and not holding up well, yes. Personally I think that they are wrong.

QuoteI'm just as big a fan of Dragonball as you (heck, the series means so much to me I might be a bigger one), but I'm not sure I'd rank the series over Yu Yu Hakusho, Johnny Quest, or even Gargoyles, as I feel that those are high quality and important action shows as well, and although Dragonball is a classic work of animation, those other series had attributes and significance to them that made their placement higher than Dragonball on your list well deserved. I do think that Dragonball should have been higher than Mobile Suit Gundam though...

I think Yu Yu Hakusho and Gargoyles are better shows as well (I haven't seen JQ in ages, though, so I'll have to re-watch that series at some point). That said, I still could have justified Dragon Ball being even higher. That's not to say that I have a problem with its placement on the list. I just think that it really does deserve to be remembered as a classic series. It has aged phenomenally well.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 17, 2013, 02:29:48 PM
Come now, is this really an unpopular opinion. :awesome:

It might not be unpopular anymore, but for quite a few years, you would hear Bleach fans (of which their used to be WAY too many of) raving about how Aizen was one of the best villains to ever come out of the shonen genre, and at that time all they had to go on was a single plot twist. I never saw him as a memorable villain beyond that, so I'm just pointing out that I always had that opinion of him, whereas I feel that a lot o people were fooled into thinking that there was really more to him than just being a generic villain with pretty lame and cliched motivations. As always, I turned out to be right. :sly:

QuoteI had some nostalgia for Naruto that made me believe the first 141 episodes of the original series were good....but, rewatching the series on Toonami, I can't stand it. I mean, I thought the first episode held up really well and was actually better than I remembered, but every other episode has been progressively more and more of a pain to watch. Not just because of the terrible pacing and cheapness of the anime (the music is still good, though), but I can't stand any of the characters any more, not even Kakashi. The Zabuza arc is honestly a very paint by the numbers and slow shonen arc, and Haku and Zabuza are honestly rather boring villains. I dunno. I've been pretty disillusioned with the manga for some time now as well. I just dont like this series anymore. It doesn't hold up to me as well as other Toonami shows from back in the day like Zatch Bell, Megas XLR, or Bobobo-Bo Bo-bobo (not counting 4Kids One Piece. Obviously it holds up better than that). Maybe once Toonami gets to the Forest of Death portion of the Chunin Exams it'll start being as enjoyable as I remembered, but right now I honestly feel like I'm wasting more time watching and reading the series than I am watching and reading Bleach, which kills me.

My point was that I think the main reason that Naruto doesn't hold up is because of the lame writing and honestly crappy characters. The story was never really the weak point of the series, as some of the haters claim, and it can get pretty ambitious at times. The problem is that Masashi Kishimoto is clearly not the most talented writer (though I will say that he's at least miles better than Kubo, any day), and if I were to be blunt, he kind of sucks at it. So the main problem with Naruto is not its story, but its badly written characters, and as I've said, characters are the most important part of any series to me. The story can be fine, or it can be kind of crappy, but good characters are what keeps me caring about a story. Naruto has a bunch o pig-headed unlikable douche-bags in the beginning, and while a lot of characters get more tolerable as the manga goes along, they then just become completely bland and uninteresting. It also is one of those shonen series that succumbs to having way too many characters introduced at once, hence why you get a lot of sub-plots that go nowhere, and you can't help but forget the names of over half of the cast, or even that some characters even exist within the series.

Basically, I'm saying that I don't really like this series either (I don't necessarily hate it, though), but my unpopular opinion is my reason for hating it. A lot of people blame the story. I honestly have no huge issues with the story. I hate the fucking characters more than anything else.

QuoteAizen from Bleach was never really a good villain (read: well-written). People really only remembered him because of a single plot-twist, which admittedly was pretty damn cool at the time. Other than that, his actual motivation, ambitions, and overall persona as a villain is really weak, and I don't think he really deserves his status as being considered one of the best shonen villains of all time. There's just no way he's up there with the likes of villains like Frieza, Sensui, and Shishio, IMO.

I'm pretty sure this isn't really an unpopular opinion. Ever since the whole Deicide mess, it's generally agreed that Aizen was a fucking terribly written character with zero depth to him. Most of his praise comes from what he did when he first outed himself as a villain.

QuoteMy point was that I think the main reason that Naruto doesn't hold up is because of the lame writing and honestly crappy characters. The story was never really the weak point of the series, as some of the haters claim, and it can get pretty ambitious at times. The problem is that Masashi Kishimoto is clearly not the most talented writer (though I will say that he's at least miles better than Kubo, any day), and if I were to be blunt, he kind of sucks at it. So the main problem with Naruto is not its story, but its badly written characters, and as I've said, characters are the most important part of any series to me. The story can be fine, or it can be kind of crappy, but good characters are what keeps me caring about a story. Naruto has a bunch o pig-headed unlikable douche-bags in the beginning, and while a lot of characters get more tolerable as the manga goes along, they then just become completely bland and uninteresting. It also is one of those shonen series that succumbs to having way too many characters introduced at once, hence why you get a lot of sub-plots that go nowhere, and you can't help but forget the names of over half of the cast, or even that some characters even exist within the series.

Basically, I'm saying that I don't really like this series either (I don't necessarily hate it, though), but my unpopular opinion is my reason for hating it. A lot of people blame the story. I honestly have no huge issues with the story. I hate the fucking characters more than anything else.

It doesn't help that most of the interesting characters are either killed off, or shoved into the sidelines to give the unlikable ones more screentime, or in Itachi's case, get's overhyped in-story to high-hell and back to the point where everyone becomes sick of him. Kishimoto is also the worst of the big 3 shounen mangaka when it comes to writing female characters, and that's saying something.

Speaking of female characters, I'm really sick of how a majority of shonen series these days feel the need to have big-breasted ditsy female characters in order to attract readers. To me that just shows cheap tactics to make up for poor writing ability. You know one thing I've noticed about all of Togashi's work? Between YYH, Level E, and HXH, there's not a single over-sexualized female among the group. Hell, Togashi isn't even afraid to put in downright ugly looking females into his story, yet give them a ton of character depth and also give them a really important role in the story. Just look at Palm from HXH. She's ugly as fuck but a damn interesting and useful character. Now, you could maybe chalk up Togashi's lack of doing this to his crappy artwork, but personally I think its clear that he's a writer who is confident in his writing ability to keep his stories interesting (and for what its worth, HXH's main reading demographic is of the oldest crowd that reads WSJ), and clearly he has a bit more respect for the female gender than most other shonen mangaka do. Granted that, this is a magazine that is primarily targeted towards young boys, but still, just think of what some of these writers are teaching young, impressionable kids, in terms of how they perceive women. To me, the over-sexualization of female characters in shonen series has gone to downright disgusting degrees in certain works (History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi comes to mind, here).

I also find the level of fanservice and sexualization present in modern manga (not just shounen) to be unnecessary and tasteless. Sadly, it seems that many mangaka are incapable of actually writing interesting female characters, so they decide to just make them walking T&A shots instead.

You know what the saddest thing is? There are even some female mangaka out their who over-sexualize their female characters and can't write about women for shit. You know you've got it bad when even female writers can't dignify their own gender in the slightest.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 17, 2013, 03:27:37 PM

I think Yu Yu Hakusho and Gargoyles are better shows as well (I haven't seen JQ in ages, though, so I'll have to re-watch that series at some point). That said, I still could have justified Dragon Ball being even higher. That's not to say that I have a problem with its placement on the list. I just think that it really does deserve to be remembered as a classic series. It has aged phenomenally well.

I agree. It still holds up to this day. Personally, I like Dragonball better than Gargoyles and Johnny Quest, but both of those shows seem more important to me from an industry and influential standpoint, so I don't know if I myself would be able to justify ranking Dragonball over them and Yu Yu Hakusho. But it's definatley a classic series, if not the classic shonen anime.  :)

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 17, 2013, 02:29:48 PM
My point was that I think the main reason that Naruto doesn't hold up is because of the lame writing and honestly crappy characters. The story was never really the weak point of the series, as some of the haters claim, and it can get pretty ambitious at times. The problem is that Masashi Kishimoto is clearly not the most talented writer (though I will say that he's at least miles better than Kubo, any day), and if I were to be blunt, he kind of sucks at it. So the main problem with Naruto is not its story, but its badly written characters, and as I've said, characters are the most important part of any series to me. The story can be fine, or it can be kind of crappy, but good characters are what keeps me caring about a story. Naruto has a bunch o pig-headed unlikable douche-bags in the beginning, and while a lot of characters get more tolerable as the manga goes along, they then just become completely bland and uninteresting. It also is one of those shonen series that succumbs to having way too many characters introduced at once, hence why you get a lot of sub-plots that go nowhere, and you can't help but forget the names of over half of the cast, or even that some characters even exist within the series.

I never said Kubo is a better writer than Kishimoto. He's far more awful. However, the awfulness of post-Soul Society Bleach makes it actually fun to read sometimes, whereas I'm usually just annoyed with Naruto now. Both aren't very good mangas, that's for sure, and yeah, like you, the characters of Naruto are  the main reason I'm so fed up with it these days. They are either bland or obnoxious or simply just cliche. Thank god for Toriko and the still okayness of post-timeskip One Piece (and the  fun to read just because it is so ridiculous Medaka Box), or there wouldn't be any good shonen manga that I still keep up with.  :>

Quote from: Rynnec on March 17, 2013, 03:32:18 PM

It doesn't help that most of the interesting characters are either killed off, or shoved into the sidelines to give the unlikable ones more screentime, or in Itachi's case, get's overhyped in-story to high-hell and back to the point where everyone becomes sick of him. Kishimoto is also the worst of the big 3 shounen mangaka when it comes to writing female characters, and that's saying something.

:wth:. No no no, trust me. Bleach is infinately worse than Naruto when it comes to well-written female characters (at least in the post Soul Society chapters).

Having characters being pushed to the sidelines is a problem in both Bleach and Naruto. Both series are equally bad in this regard. It's one of the key reasons the Shinobi War and the Arrancar arcs of these series annoy me.

I actually thought Itachi is an okay character, but he's far from actually being decently written, and honestly seems more like an object of the plot than an actual character sometimes.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 17, 2013, 03:45:43 PM
Speaking of female characters, I'm really sick of how a majority of shonen series these days feel the need to have big-breasted ditsy female characters in order to attract readers. To me that just shows cheap tactics to make up for poor writing ability. You know one thing I've noticed about all of Togashi's work? Between YYH, Level E, and HXH, there's not a single over-sexualized female among the group. Hell, Togashi isn't even afraid to put in downright ugly looking females into his story, yet give them a ton of character depth and also give them a really important role in the story. Just look at Palm from HXH. She's ugly as fuck but a damn interesting and useful character. Now, you could maybe chalk up Togashi's lack of doing this to his crappy artwork, but personally I think its clear that he's a writer who is confident in his writing ability to keep his stories interesting (and for what its worth, HXH's main reading demographic is of the oldest crowd that reads WSJ), and clearly he has a bit more respect for the female gender than most other shonen mangaka do. Granted that, this is a magazine that is primarily targeted towards young boys, but still, just think of what some of these writers are teaching young, impressionable kids, in terms of how they perceive women. To me, the over-sexualization of female characters in shonen series has gone to downright disgusting degrees in certain works (History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi comes to mind, here).

I never though Palm was "ugly," but I am glad Togashi doesn't over-sexualize his female characters and actually does a good job of making them well-written.

Quote from: Foggle on March 17, 2013, 03:50:58 PM
I also find the level of fanservice and sexualization present in modern manga (not just shounen) to be unnecessary and tasteless. Sadly, it seems that many mangaka are incapable of actually writing interesting female characters, so they decide to just make them walking T&A shots instead.

Totally agree with you. I hate fan-service with a passion, and always avoid anime and manga that feature it frequently. I hate this is such a prevalent trend in anime and manga. It annoys me.  :imnothappy:

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 17, 2013, 03:53:31 PM
You know what the saddest thing is? There are even some female mangaka out their who over-sexualize their female characters and can't write about women for shit. You know you've got it bad when even female writers can't dignify their own gender in the slightest.

Like who? (do NOT say Rumiko Takahashi because that is simply not true in any of her works).

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 17, 2013, 03:53:31 PM
You know what the saddest thing is? There are even some female mangaka out their who over-sexualize their female characters and can't write about women for shit. You know you've got it bad when even female writers can't dignify their own gender in the slightest.

If a manga isn't filled with bland-ass bishounen, then it's filled with bland-ass T&A bishoujo instead.

Quote from: Foggle on March 17, 2013, 03:50:58 PM
I also find the level of fanservice and sexualization present in modern manga (not just shounen) to be unnecessary and tasteless. Sadly, it seems that many mangaka are incapable of actually writing interesting female characters, so they decide to just make them walking T&A shots instead.

I honestly wish we had more anime with the same basic concept as Queen's Blade or Koihime Musou, but with less T&A, and more interesting characters and plot development. Unfortunately, that would take actual effort and talent. Something msot anime writers don't have.

Quote from: Cartoon XNo no no, trust me. Bleach is infinately worse than Naruto when it comes to well-written female characters (at least in the post Soul Society chapters).

Bleach's female characters may be bland, but at least none of them are irritating the way characters like Sakura are. She's the primary example of how not to write a female character.

Quote from: Rynnec on March 17, 2013, 04:22:03 PM

Bleach's female characters may be bland, but at least none of them are irritating the way characters like Sakura are. She's the primary example of how not to write a female character.

Orihime is infinately more irritating and terribly written. I think she is the worst written female character I have ever read in a shounen manga. Seriously.

I honestly don't hate Orihime as much as other people do. Sure her love for Ichigo is forced and her character arc was fucking awful, but she can be legitimately amusing sometimes. Rukia can get irritating too, but at least she has some semblance of competency, and is no more or less useless than any male character that isn't Ichigo.

Sakura, on the other hand, annoys me to no end. She has virtually no personality other than being in love with Sasuke for god knows what reason, no character arc other than becoming useful...for one arc, acts more like a whiny bitch more than anything, and whenever she does do anything, she just makes things worse. And she's supposed to be the female lead!

Quote from: Rynnec on March 17, 2013, 04:38:19 PM
I honestly don't hate Orihime as much as other people do. Sure her love for Ichigo is forced and her character arc was fucking awful, but she can be legitimately amusing sometimes. Rukia can get irritating too, but at least she has some semblance of competency, and is no more or less useless than any male character that isn't Ichigo.

Sakura, on the other hand, annoys me to no end. She has virtually no personality other than being in love with Sasuke for god knows what reason, no character arc other than becoming useful...for one arc, acts more like a whiny bitch more than anything, and whenever she does do anything, she just makes things worse. And she's supposed to be the female lead!

Eh, Sakura at her worst has not pissed me off as much as Orihime has, but I hate the both of them anyway. It's true that Orihime has some redeemable moments, whereas Sakura has amost none (I liked her when she tried to protect her unconcious teamates in the Forest of Death portion of the Chunin Exam and her battle with Ino, but that's it).

Quote from: Rynnec on March 17, 2013, 04:38:19 PM
I honestly don't hate Orihime as much as other people do. Sure her love for Ichigo is forced and her character arc was fucking awful, but she can be legitimately amusing sometimes. Rukia can get irritating too, but at least she has some semblance of competency, and is no more or less useless than any male character that isn't Ichigo.

Honestly, I didn't have much of a problem with Orihime aside from her being a pretty bland and boring character. She didn't exactly annoy me, though....until after she got kidnapped. At one point, I recall a certain scene in which Ichigo is fighting to rescue her, and he gets insanely wounded. She goes to heal him....and then doesn't because she gets scared and screams for Ichigo to save her....while he's still bleeding out. And that's more or less where I stopped reading Bleach. To be honest, I don't remember the specifics of that scene too much because I haven't read Bleach in ages, but I could link you to a 2-part review of Bleach which has a portion of it in which the reviewer covers that particular scene and his distaste for it in depth.

I think I know the scene you're talking about. Was it the fight against Nnoitra (the guy with the constant grin, spoon collar, and the spear thing with a crescent-shaped blade) and his servant?

Quote from: Rynnec on March 17, 2013, 05:04:17 PM
I think I know the scene you're talking about. Was it the fight against Nnoitra (the guy with the constant grin, spoon collar, and the spear thing with a crescent-shaped blade) and his servant?

It sounds more like what happened in the Ulquiorra fight, to me (you know, the emo arrancar).

I remember the fight being with Uluquiorra, myself, but I haven't read the series in a while, so Rynnec may probably be right. The opponent wasn't the important thing, though. It was the way that Orihime acted in that scenario.

Here are parts 1 (http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/ir/yrt/readright/35098-read-right-to-left-the-downfall-of-bleach-part-1) and 2 (http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/ir/yrt/readright/35352-read-right-to-left-the-downfall-of-bleach-part-2) of the Bleach review I was talking about. One of these videos has a piece that goes into detail about that particular scene.

I think the thing that really bothered me about it is that it painted Orihime as being a hopeless damsel with no backbone, which aside from being a complete set-back to female characters in general, really contradicted how useful she was in the Soul Society arc. Until that scene, I never minded the character that much, but after that point I couldn't help but feel that the hate she received was pretty justified. That's just my opinion, though.

The only girl better than Orihime is Fluttershy :blush:

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 17, 2013, 02:29:48 PM
-I don't get why people call Outlaw star a "stupid" show. Is it intentionally silly? Yes. I like that aspect of it, personally, though I can admit that Fred is a really badly written gay stereotype, which makes me kind of ashamed that I still find him to work as a comic relief character, but other than that I never felt the show ever came off as unintentionally idiotic. Personally, I think its a worthy piece of the space western trilogy, even if its not as good as the other 2 series.

It may be my least favorite of space western trilogy, but I defiantly don't consider it a bad series. Just not my cup of tea.

Quote from: Rynnec on March 17, 2013, 03:32:18 PM

QuoteMy point was that I think the main reason that Naruto doesn't hold up is because of the lame writing and honestly crappy characters. The story was never really the weak point of the series, as some of the haters claim, and it can get pretty ambitious at times. The problem is that Masashi Kishimoto is clearly not the most talented writer (though I will say that he's at least miles better than Kubo, any day), and if I were to be blunt, he kind of sucks at it. So the main problem with Naruto is not its story, but its badly written characters, and as I've said, characters are the most important part of any series to me. The story can be fine, or it can be kind of crappy, but good characters are what keeps me caring about a story. Naruto has a bunch o pig-headed unlikable douche-bags in the beginning, and while a lot of characters get more tolerable as the manga goes along, they then just become completely bland and uninteresting. It also is one of those shonen series that succumbs to having way too many characters introduced at once, hence why you get a lot of sub-plots that go nowhere, and you can't help but forget the names of over half of the cast, or even that some characters even exist within the series.

Basically, I'm saying that I don't really like this series either (I don't necessarily hate it, though), but my unpopular opinion is my reason for hating it. A lot of people blame the story. I honestly have no huge issues with the story. I hate the fucking characters more than anything else.

It doesn't help that most of the interesting characters are either killed off, or shoved into the sidelines to give the unlikable ones more screentime, or in Itachi's case, get's overhyped in-story to high-hell and back to the point where everyone becomes sick of him. Kishimoto is also the worst of the big 3 shounen mangaka when it comes to writing female characters, and that's saying something.

Thats my beef with Naruto. Not so much the story, but the lack of characters I actually care about.

I still need to watch Dragon Ball. I have a feeling I'll really like it.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 17, 2013, 05:09:48 PM
Here are parts 1 (http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/ir/yrt/readright/35098-read-right-to-left-the-downfall-of-bleach-part-1) and 2 (http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/ir/yrt/readright/35352-read-right-to-left-the-downfall-of-bleach-part-2) of the Bleach review I was talking about. One of these videos has a piece that goes into detail about that particular scene.

Ah yes, The Lust mini-arc. That entire fight as a whole is a summation of everything that's wrong with shounen manga, all of the weaknesses of the genre rolled up into one.

Bleach is just so dull. The one time Kubo tried something new it came off as YYH-lite with a silly twist at the end which was entirely unneeded to get Soul Reapers (including his own powers) involved for no reason.

Quote from: Avaitor on March 17, 2013, 05:31:32 PM
The only girl better than Orihime is Fluttershy :blush:

Fluttershy isn't afraid to throw a punch (or be aggressive) when needed, at least. Orihime never does anything.

I actually like Naruto. As in 'can tolerate', but I have not liked about anything that has happened since the stupid Chase Sasuke arc before the time skip. There are a few things I liked in Naruto:

• Naruto's growth up to the Chunin exam
• The general art style in part one
• Character designs
• Setting and world
• Naruto's willingness to try odd skills
• The Zabusa arc
• Rock Lee
• Shikamaru's first fight
• Naruto's sage powers
• The idea behind the sound ninja
• Kabuto's original goals

And as you can see most of that was destroyed or made irrelevant at one point or another. Most other things I don't really like include basically making every female character useless, Neji being wasted past his first fight, Naruto getting dumber, Sasuke doing stupid things that make no sense, half the cast not being used or pointlessly forgotten, and the general go nowhere tune the series has been going since they made Akatsuki the focal point. There are things I like but as a whole it is marred by bad directions in the storyline and shallow characterizations.

Quote from: Foggle on March 17, 2013, 03:50:58 PM
I also find the level of fanservice and sexualization present in modern manga (not just shounen) to be unnecessary and tasteless. Sadly, it seems that many mangaka are incapable of actually writing interesting female characters, so they decide to just make them walking T&A shots instead.

I know someone's going to throttle me for saying this but Caska from Berserk was great before "what Griffith did" and she has since been all but useless for far too long. Waste of potential.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 17, 2013, 07:52:42 PM
I know someone's going to throttle me for saying this but Caska from Berserk was great before "what Griffith did" and she has since been all but useless for far too long. Waste of potential.

120% friggin' agreed. Caska went from a cool character to a blubbering [wo]manchild (who is actually used for comic relief in the newest chapters). Don't forget that she turned into what she is now because she was raped.

I can no longer read Berserk because of that shit, quite honestly.

Didn't Gutts also get raped in his backstory, but not turn crippilingly insane and revert to a child?

Quote from: Rynnec on March 18, 2013, 03:30:31 AM
Didn't Gutts also get raped in his backstory, but not turn crippilingly insane and revert to a child?

Yup, his father figure rented him out to another mercenary, it's the reason why Gutts doesn't like people touching him.

Hearing a cartoon fan say they don't like anime is like hearing an avid reader say they don't like novels.

Yeah, I've pretty much grown far past the point of trying to differentiate anime from animation in general. I mean, yeah, I know you can categorize it as its own thing, but to me that's just downright silly since aside from the fact that anime are merely just animation from Japan (and as we all know, in Japan, ALL animation is referred to as anime), its a completely ridiculous concept to assume that all anime are generally the same thing. Just like any other cartoons, there are all sorts of anime. I mean, you have stuff ranging from Crayon Shin-Chan to Black Jack to Monster. Those are 3 series that are all anime, but with completely distinct styles and have pretty much nothing in common with one another other than the fact that they all originated from Japan.

For this reason, I never really call myself an anime fan, anymore. I'm just a guy who's a fan of good shows, in general, so when it comes to anime, I like what I think is good, and hate what I think is bad, which is basically no different from how I feel about any other form of entertainment, including books, movies, and video games. In that regard, I don't even call myself a fan of animation, anymore. I'm merely just a fan of the particular stuff that I enjoy to a great extent.

There have been times I've had to explain to people that I'm more then just an anime fan, I'm a general animation fan.

Apparently liking anime means you don't watch American/Western cartoons.

My unpopular opinion regarding contemporary anime:

There are far too many 'nice wallpaper' anime nowadays . In other words, series that are superficial at best-they may look nice (glossy, digital productions), but there is nothing or lack of substance to them. Granted there are exceptions, but they are weighted too much against the nice wallpaper.

Kyo-Ani is the greatest purveyor of 'nice wallpaper' anime, is what I'm saying.

Them or Gonzo.

I agree.

Agreed. What is Clannad if not a collection of lovely stills that would make a fine set of desktop backgrounds?

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on May 08, 2013, 03:15:06 PM
Them or Gonzo.

I agree.

Gonzo's dead. Long dead. We've got Shaft for pretty pictures that symbolize nothing now.

Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on May 08, 2013, 04:23:23 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on May 08, 2013, 03:15:06 PM
Them or Gonzo.

I agree.

Gonzo's dead. Long dead. We've got Shaft for pretty pictures that symbolize nothing now.

The king is dead.

Quote from: Foggle on May 08, 2013, 04:18:35 PM
Agreed. What is Clannad if not a collection of lovely stills that would make a fine set of desktop backgrounds?

Yeah good point. Though I was meaning literal nice wallpaper like on room walls (nice to look, makes you comfortable, etc.) but desktop backgrounds also is applicable.

It's something I've noticed as I've kind of fallen out of love with anime. A lot of the stuff is really nice to look at, but if I watch the series I'll find myself completely bored.

Eh, I'd say that anime's actually been slowly getting out of the slump after a few years of that. Most of the stylistic trends did their worst around 2006, and we're way past that.

This is the most laughably bad shit ever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsFd-cdguKM

Heh. Funimation's original dub of Dragonball Z doesn't hold up at all. I mean, I've got nostalgia for it and everything, but I can't really sit through it anymore, although watching it with Kikuchi's score helps. The Kai dub is way better. Less out of place gay innuendos.  ;)

The gay innuendos are the best part of DBZ though.

It makes the anime watchable in a hilariously bad sort of way, true.  ;)

It's amazing that Kai came up with the line'...sampling on my new power.'

Anyway, among Kai fans, my unpopular opinion would be that Kai doesn't do everything better. Trunks original Funimation voice was better and Falconer's soundtrack curbstomps the two tracks Kai uses. I do think they are wonderful for the pre-Cell episodes but after the art change and how the Cell saga is more serious, Kai's retro or w/e music sounds out of place.

Trunks is still voiced by Eric Vale. ???

The Faulconer music does fit the Cell Saga better though. I kinda wished Funimation re-used the old Faulconer productions music after the whole Yamamoto controversy.

Yeah, that's right. Kind of forgot that but I think Vale's voice got too gruffy in Kai. He makes Trunks sound like he's around 30.

Am I honestly the only one who notices that all of Falconer's musical scores for DBZ basically consist of the same 4 or 5 seconds of music being looped over and over again repeatedly? I'm definitely no expert on music, but that just always sounded so....irritating to me, personally. To me, Kai's music sounds more like actual well-composed music, even if it is plagiarized. I have to admit that I've never been a fan of Kikuchi's score, myself, so I was pretty disappointed with the change to the old-school music after that whole debacle with Yamamoto came up.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on May 16, 2013, 08:53:05 AM
Am I honestly the only one who notices that all of Falconer's musical scores for DBZ basically consist of the same 4 or 5 seconds of music being looped over and over again repeatedly? I'm definitely no expert on music, but that just always sounded so....irritating to me, personally. To me, Kai's music sounds more like actual well-composed music, even if it is plagiarized. I have to admit that I've never been a fan of Kikuchi's score, myself, so I was pretty disappointed with the change to the old-school music after that whole debacle with Yamamoto came up.

After watching that clip of the Cell fight a few days ago... no, you're not. Almost all of the Faulconer tracks sound like bad ringtones of Linkin Park songs.

To be fair, they don't sound nearly as annoying as any Linkin Park songs, but the ringtone analogy is spot-on, IMO.

The full versions of Falcouner's DBZ music aren't like that, it's just that DBZ liked to play music almost all the time (I didn't notice that until someone on yt pointed it out) which of course means lots of looping. The show sucked at music buildup but Bruce's music itself is not at fault. Go youtube Heaven Sent Trunks and try to call it a ringtone. I dare you :>

Heaven Sent Trunks is fucking composed of ringing sounds. I love how you try to defend yourself by ironically picking the one soundtrack that sounds the most like a ringtone. Typical GSF.

Also, aside from the fact that FUNimation had no idea how to use the music in the English dub by playing it all the time, that doesn't change the fact that that the music itself still sounded like the same few beats being played over repeatedly.

Don't believe me? Check out ANY Falconer theme for DBZ and really listen to it. Here's some samples just to prove it to you:

Perfect Cell Theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpkeAQG6kQw)

Vegeta's Theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-pVJ3w0tJI)

Super Saiyan 3 Theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s2Ksz7rpck)

Just listen to that shit. You may like it, but they are all basically the same sequence of sounds being repeated and extended over a few minutes to make a full track. If that qualifies as good music then making good music must be an easy feat. I mean, fuck all of the hard working musicians who try to add more depth to their scores. It sounds much more appealing to have the same 10 second clip of sound go on and on and then occasionally change it to another clip of sound to make it sound like you are adding some variety into the mix, only to go back to looping the 1st clip of sound about 30 seconds later.

No, but seriously, taking the nostalgia headphones off, I just don't find this music to be any good at all.

I don't know what kind of ringtones you listen to. :> You went from likng Kai's soundtrack more to prefering DBZ's and now it's Kai again. I can't take your opinion seriously since you can't make up your mind, you little shit.

Quote from: gunswordfist on May 16, 2013, 04:30:40 PM
I don't know what kind of ringtones you listen to. :> You went from likng Kai's soundtrack more to prefering DBZ's and now it's Kai again. I can't take your opinion seriously since you can't make up your mind, you little shit.

Way to make yourself look like an idiot. I never said any such thing. I always said that I was never much of a fan of DBZ's original soundtrack, nor was I ever a fan of Falconer's soundtrack. I always said that I preferred Kai's music. Go head an try and quote a post where I stated otherwise. Good luck with that.

So, now you're basically just resorting to flat-out lying and making up stuff about things that I never even said to make yourself look like less of an idiot. Even for you that's a new low, GSF. :??:

I liked Falconer's score as a kid and all, but honestly, it's incredibly grating and sounds repetitive to me nowadays. Plus, it's terribly misused for the most part, and it's played so loud that the dialogue is sometimes drowned by it. I'd much rather listen to Kikuchi's score, and I'd much, much rather listen to the Yamamoto score, plagiarized or not.

Quote from: Cartoon X on May 16, 2013, 06:10:16 PM
I liked Falconer's score as a kid and all, but honestly, it's incredibly grating and sounds repetitive to me nowadays. Plus, it's terribly misused for the most part, and it's played so loud that the dialogue is sometimes drowned by it. I'd much rather listen to Kikuchi's score, and I'd much, much rather listen to the Yammato score, plagiarized or not.

Yeah, basically this. Falconer's music is something that I thought was cool as a kid, but when I try to listen to it now, its another one of the things that made me wonder how I could even stand watching FUNimation's original dub of the series back when it aired on Toonami. At some points that dub has a so bad its good sort of quality to it, but more often than not it just comes off as plain bad. Thank god for DBZ Kai, and the fact that FUNimation has improved TREMENDOUSLY since the days of the DBZ dub.

Yes you did. You either too stupid to remember or full of shit. I wonder which it is. :>

Quote from: gunswordfist on May 16, 2013, 08:47:38 PM
Yes you did. You either too stupid to remember or full of shit. I wonder which it is. :>

Quote it. If I actually did say it, then prove it.

I'll just sit back and wait for you to realize what an idiot you are.

Well, I still like Faulconer's score. It's the only thing about the original dub that's even tolerable at this point.

So screw you guys.  :happytime:

You should keep in mind that I often exaggerate how much I hate certain things just to piss off GSF, since I know what he likes, and its just so much fun to watch him attempt to bitch about me to defend his opinion. :>

Quote from: Kiddington on May 17, 2013, 11:32:53 PM
Well, I still like Faulconer's score. It's the only thing about the original dub that's even tolerable at this point.

So screw you guys.  :happytime:

I also like Faulconer's score. I tried watching DBZ: Kai a couple of times and it didn't feel even a little close to epic as the original dub felt, especially during SSJ transformations. Unfortunately, these days the only way I can watch DBZ now is through Team 4 Star.

Feels like it's been forever since I've last watched anime.

If we're talking about the original dub, here (or the original FUNimation dub, anyways, since god knows how many other ones came before that), whatever Faulconer's music does to make scenes feel "epic" is immediately off-set by long-winded scenes featuring Sean Schemmel or Chris Sabat (or both) screaming their lungs out for entire minutes at a time. I believe the both of them even said that they hated doing that since it was killer on their throats.

I like how DBZ Kai vastly cuts down the transformation and power-up times (not just for Super Saiyans, but for all power-ups in general). That said they still take way too long, IMO, but even then, I think Kai spends the right amount of time on scenes for them to come off as epic, rather than dragged out.

As far as the music goes, that's a purely subjective matter. I still think Kai's soundtrack (the plagiarized part of it, anyways) is the best suited music for DBZ that I've heard so far. Falconer's music, as I've said, is a bit too 1-dimensional for my tastes and even when it does sound cool, it is most often inappropriately used in the original dub (most notably it has the same problem as the dub from Digimon Adventure, where the soundtrack never seems to shut up). As for Kikuchi's original score, I think it would work fine for the original Dragon Ball, but it just feels completely off in DBZ, for the most part. Needless to say, music was never the strong point of this series, anyways.

Cell is as good of a villain as Frieza was.

Quote from: gunswordfist on May 26, 2013, 05:51:15 PM
Cell is as good of a villain as Frieza was.

Please elaborate on this. I'm genuinely curious to hear your reasoning.

I just liked how Perfect Cell was a shonen villain who didn't kill to just kill and didn't care about world domination, he just wanted to show he was the strongest. I also like his sense of humor and thought he did a good job of making his arc fun.

In regards to DBZ, I actually think Rock The Dragon is the only theme in either version of the show that fits in anywhere.

Yes, it's a big cheesy and dumb rock song, but I still think it fills the adrenaline quotient better than any of their other themes or in-show music.

Dragon Ball is another story.

I fucking love the English dub theme for Dragon Ball. It's easily my favorite Dragon Ball theme song, ever.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on September 08, 2013, 09:28:14 PM
I fucking love the English dub theme for Dragon Ball. It's easily my favorite Dragon Ball theme song, ever.

Seconded.  :thumbup:

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on September 08, 2013, 07:42:43 PM
In regards to DBZ, I actually think Rock The Dragon is the only theme in either version of the show that fits in anywhere.

Yes, it's a big cheesy and dumb rock song, but I still think it fills the adrenaline quotient better than any of their other themes or in-show music.

Eh, while I'm not big on "Cha La Head Cha La" I still think it works for the series, and I like it better than "Rock the Dragon" as memetic as it is  :sweat:. I honestly do love "Zenkai Power," "We got Power," and "Angel," even if they aren't necessarily "adrenaline-pumping." I'll admit that Kai's "Dragon Soul" 'fits' the show much better than any of the themes made for it before, though.

That said, "Dan Dan Kokoro Hitareteku," in english or japanese, is still the second best song in the franchise  :sly:.

Awwww....personally I love Cha La Head Cha La.

Well, I knew it wouldn't be a popular opinion!  ;)

That said, the English dub theme for Dragon Ball is pretty great. I would have liked to have heard that when it first aired up here.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on September 11, 2013, 09:34:06 PM
Awwww....personally I love Cha La Head Cha La.

Cha La's a good song, and when I think of Z it's one of the first things that pops into my head, but I just prefer the other themes/music in the series. Cha La Head Cha La is definitely  an iconic theme, though, and I like it way better than Rock the Dragon or any of FUNi's instrumental openings.  :)

So is this topic for unpopular opinions compared to AR folks or from the general anime populace?

Quote from: Angus on September 12, 2013, 11:31:38 AM
So is this topic for unpopular opinions compared to AR folks or from the general anime populace?

Unpopular opinions you have about anime in general.

Quote from: Angus on September 12, 2013, 11:31:38 AM
So is this topic for unpopular opinions compared to AR folks or from the general anime populace?

Both, I suppose.

DBZ's one of those benchmark anime shows for me. I did like "marathon mode" for the Dragonball Z boxset, and playing parts of it at 2x speed; that helped cure some of the redundancy of the series.

Quote from: Foggle on September 12, 2013, 03:07:36 PM

Quote from: Angus on September 12, 2013, 11:31:38 AM
So is this topic for unpopular opinions compared to AR folks or from the general anime populace?

Both, I suppose.

OK, good, I still wanted to reclaim my "I like Kanon" statement  :swoon:

Quote from: Foggle on September 12, 2013, 03:07:36 PM

Quote from: Angus on September 12, 2013, 11:31:38 AM
So is this topic for unpopular opinions compared to AR folks or from the general anime populace?

Both, I suppose.

Thought I was the only one who did that. :P

- My favorite part of Hunter x Hunter was the Hunter exams... Now I know that this probably isn't as written well as some of the later parts. And if I rewatched this show, I'd probably come to realize that quickly. However, I just have a soft spot for the exams part in the first section of the show because that's when I got hooked on the show. If I rewatch it, I imagine I'll still love it, but it will no longer be the best part to me.

- I like the Death Note anime equally as much as the manga... I know they jumped over half of the second arc. But I think they made up for that with some phenomenal stylistic choices. I like the artwork, particularly in specific moments where the colors get really weird and reflect the current emotional level or something. And the soundtrack is great. Also... to be honest, I think that the second arc serves better as an epilogue anyway. Because while it's good, it could never be on the same level as the battle between Light and L. I see it as more of Death Note's equivalent to Godfather Part III (or at least from I hear about that movie, I honestly haven't seen it yet), in that it serves as more of an epilogue that shows the downfall of Light. That was the focus, not necessarily Near and Mello. Those two characters essentially just serve to help push said downfall. But with all that said, I do remember the anime's decision to rush the second arc caused some important story and character elements to be forgotten, and that is indeed not forgivable because some of them could've been taken care of in less than a minute.

- I dislike Botan in YYH. Well, she's good in the first season. But in the Dark Tournament onward, I just want to put a gun to myself and pull the trigger everytime she speaks. Actually, none of the four female moral support characters are particularly well written or special, except for maybe Kuwabara's sister who is fun and animated (and not in the ditzy "kawai" way like Botan). Kayko and Yukina are okay but they really aren't much of characters. Actually, I think the referee Koto is a better character than all four of them. And of course Genkai is, too.

- I think Cowboy Bebop is a bit overrated... Don't get me wrong, it's definitely a great show. I put it on my top 10 anime list recently. However, it seems like so many people consider it the absolute best there is. And I just don't see what makes it that good. Maybe I need to rewatch it.

I love the Hunter Exam arc. It's what got me into the show as well. If anyone thinks it's too slow or whatever, then I disagree. I basically think of it as like Genkai's Tournament but overall with better characters and much much more adventure. YYH never really had an adventure arc so seeing Togashi do that is wonderful.

I always liked the Hunter Exams arc. I don't agree that it's better than York New City, though.

My unpopular opinion regarding this series, though, is that fans need to stop praising the Chimera Ant arc out the wazoo, and actually look at it more critically to see that it does in fact have many flaws. Don't get me wrong, I still really like the majority of this arc, but there are some things about it that really piss me off, especially since so many fans seem to completely excuse those problems.

Y'know, the internet is the only place where I can find anime fans who don't like Naruto. Everyone I've encountered in real life does. It's especially true with female anime fans for some reason (and I've encountered more female anime fans in real life than male ones.)

It's also seriously hard to find people who don't like K-On too (today this girl in my class said it was the funniest anime she'd ever seen). :srs:

AND it's hard to find people who prefer Cowboy Bebop to Samurai Champloo. This one I don't mind as much, but most people I've met seem to like the latter more.

Looking back in this thread, I've only ever posted one unpopular opinion, so...

- Fairy Tail is currently the worst shonen series out there. Granted, I say this out of disgust for recent chapters of the manga than what the anime has covered so far, but the series turns to shit after Edolas and has just gotten worse and worse since. Now the series is basically an excuse for fan-service on a plot and erotic level, which disgusts me. While, like Bleach and Naruto, I used to legitimately like/tolerate the early parts of the series, the anime is so lazy and cheap that it ruins any goodwill I could ever grant it. And like those series, I can't even stand the "good" parts of it even in manga form now. I honestly think it represents everything wrong in bad shonen anime and manga series right now. Yes, moreso than Bleach, and that's saying a lot considering how awful that became.

- I just want to clarify that I think the Toriko manga is awesome, one of my favorite currently-running manga, and I'd recommend it to anyone looking for a bloody fun and over the top action adventure read. The anime, however, is something I loathe with a passion because Toei fucks everything that makes it so great by toning down the violence in 4kids-level butchering, dragging out the arcs and fights way longer than they should be, adding obnoxious, superfluous filler where it is not needed, and overall just lazily animating the whole thing. I wish Madhouse or a studio who knows how to give a series a good adaption had made the anime, cause then it'd be fun to watch, and maybe even more popular in the U.S. But no, it went to Toei. The anime is on par with InuYasha as my least favorite adaption of any manga ever.

- I think the Ranma 1/2 anime actually gets funnier as it goes on. A few people say that they lose interest in the series at the half-way point because it gets into a rut of formulas. I can't say I agree, though I can see where they are coming from, since the middle stretch of episodes (season 4) is the weakest in the series in my opinion as well. However, seasons 5-7 are actually all on the same level of quality to me and I think they are much funnier than the early episodes. The show starts to embrace more absurd and bizarre concepts, and mix-in more slice-of-life scenarios alongside the wacky martial arts antics as well. In fact, I think some of the most creative and diverse episodes in the show come from past the half-way point, and some of the most memorable episodes (Pantyhose Taro, Ukyo's Secret Sauce, Shishi Hokodan, etc.) are in there.

- Urusei Yatsura is more inconsistent as an anime adaption than Ranma 1/2. I still love the series, but it tones down the wackiness of Takahashi's manga, and replaces it with quieter humor. It works for the most part, but it feels tonally different from the manga at several points, and removing the frenetic nature of the series makes it a bit less laugh-out loud funny to me compared to it. Episodes focusing on Jariten are especially victim to this, though that may also be because I find Jariten's voice to be a bit annoying too. I will say though that the anime is pretty interesting for the risks it takes and the diversity in it's episodes. I think the Ranma anime turns out funnier, and a lot of that is because it's closer in tone to Takahashi's original plus the fact that Viz's excellent dub makes it even better. Of course, Urusei Yatsura still puts to shame most of modern anime comedies that were influenced by it (aka 99% of them) and the manga is still one of the best manga comedies there is period.

- I didn't think the final two episodes of Evangelion weird or confusing. Granted, I'm not the kind of person who sees things as being weird or not, which explains why I like a lot of bizarre anime comedies. But the final episodes of Evangelion are pretty straight forward. Hell, they even tell you what is going on. I think most people just get caught up in how non-traditional those episodes were and then end up missing all the important stuff. Those episodes move fast and you have to actually pay attention to the dialogue (I notice most people only half-pay attention to tv shows most of the time), and even then they repeat the same things enough times that it becomes almost laughable. While I like Evangelion a whole lot, it's mainly because of the second half of the series and those final few episodes. The first half of the show is still good, but it's more of a normal giant robot series and not anything that unique. I also don't think Evangelion is that hard to understand or necessarily that deep or philosophical. I love it for being an excellent character study series, dissecting the warped psyches of the main cast. It's the way the series exploits genre tropes and stock characters and turns them on it's head for those character analyses is what makes it brilliant to me. I still don't think it's that hard to understand nor do I think it's deep, so in that sense I think there are a lot of people who overate it.

- On that note, the only anime to date that I've ever felt was confusing at times was Lain. To date that's the only anime and was the only tv series in general before I started watching The Wire where I've had to pause, re-wind, and re-watch scenes and episodes in order to really understand what was going on. I'd say it's the only piece of animation I've seen to date that has ever challenged me in terms of analyzing and interpreting it.

- Silver Spoon is better than Fullmetal Alchemist. And I'm one of the few here who still likes the franchise. But It's almost on a whole other level at how likable and well-characterized SS's cast is, not to mention one of the most addicting slice of life anime I've ever watched. And it's actually a slice of life grounded in actual reality, as in a lot stuff that happens in it do or can happen in real life, and I find the problems of the characters are thus more relatable and sympathetic to me. I found the latest episode particularly, and that ending was one of the most effective dark ending I've seen because it hits home with reality. I'm very excited to see where the series goes, and really have to get on catching up with the manga, sometime.

- I think Attack on Titan is an enjoyable anime, but overrated. I don't think anyone will deny that the characters are stuff we've seen before, but my specific problem with them is that they become uninteresting or stop developing after certain points in the series. Since I care mostly about characters and story in shows and comics, this is a problem for me. As it stands the thing that sets the series apart is it's over the top action and occasional moments of bleakness which mostly function (to me at least) as dark humor. That's all well and good, but the way everyone (and I mean almost EVERYONE) hypes the series as the best thing ever has started to irritate me a bit. As it stands, between the two modern high-selling and popular shonen manga/anime in Japan (behind One Piece), I prefer Magi, which I find has more interesting characters, story, themes, and villains. Not only that, while I think Magi has gotten better as it's gone on, I've found Attack on Titan to have gotten less interesting, despite all the twists and turns that have made the series so popular and perpetuate every other chapter in the manga still. That said, the anime itself is a good show, makes quite a few improvements on the source material, and covers the best parts of the manga to date, so I don't have a problem with people liking it, but I do think people overrate it as something darker or more fleshed out than it is.

- On the subject of Magi, while it's still great stuff, so far I think the anime's version of the Magnostadt arc is not quite as good as the manga's. A lot of that has to do with the directing and placing of some scenes, though I admit to being particularly bothered by a completely inappropriate use of the ending theme in Mogamett's backstory which near ruins the impact of a moment and scene. There's still 7 episodes left, of course, so maybe they can hit it out of the park with the remainder, but I still find it a shame my favorite arc in the manga feels lacking in the anime.

- People who say Naraku is a calculating mastermind who always wins are wrong. The whole point of his character is that he is pure id and doesn't even know what he actually wants beyond a compulsion to get rid of his inner humanity. That's also why his plans go awry, because he can't account for any other variables and is only focused on his own satisfaction. The only calculated plan of his that completely worked was manipulating the Infant into creating Moryomaru, betraying him, and later absorbing him after the latter stole the abilities of various demons, and that doesn't pay off until volume 45 of the manga and episode 6 of The Final Act. Otherwise he has victories where he had a plan where stuff did go well, but they weren't totally full-proof affairs and never went as he thought they would. So while Naraku's not exactly the best written antagonist there is, I can't say I'd agree to put him on the level as Bleach's Aizen and Young Justice's The Light, who are villains who legitimately do seem to be able to predict everything and win no matter what.

- I want to write a whole goddamn character study on this sometime, but to be brief; the whole point of Johan's character was not that he was some divine monster, but a human being who did monstrous things. He didn't have to be a monster, he chose to me. Nina could have been the monster if Bonaparta didn't tell her "humans can become anything;" they can choose how they live, make decisions for themselves, be what the way they choose to. Over the course of the series Urasawa showed many good people who did terrible things and many bad people who did good things, who lived by and were defined by those choices they made. Human nature isn't black and white, morality isn't always just right and wrong, and while there is good and evil, a human being cannot be lumped as solely one or another. People choose how they want to live, they live with the choices they make. Johan chose to be a monster out of the delusion he was one, brought about by his traumatic childhood experiences. When Nina told him the truth, that he wasn't the one sent to the Red Rose Mansion, that's when he realized what he chose to do with his life had been under false assumptions over who he was, which is why he went to commit the perfect suicide in Ruenheim, taking with him as many people as he can in order to punish Bonaparta, who he holds responsible for ruining his life, as well as to push Tenma into killing him, to corrupt his innocent nature by spilling blood on his hands. If Johan was a demon, a perfect being of evil, he would have succeeded. He didn't. The ending may seem like a cop-out, but it was to show that Johan, for all his mystique, was really just a human being, just as fragile and flawed as anyone. And in the end, when he leaves the hospital, it isn't supposed to be a frightening scene intending "here we go again." No, it means "the monster is gone." The mystique of Johan was shattered, the "monster "in him died the second time he was shot and the second time Tenma saved him. The ending implies that the ordeal is over, there are no real monsters, and that Johan has left to presumably live a happier life on his own terms, not dictated by the expectations that used to manipulate him. It's a perfect ending that fully pays off on the themes of choices and right and wrong that were built up constantly throughout the series. I may have flubbed a bit in the explanation there, but I really think that people who still saw Johan as some perfect, inhuman monster by the end of the series really misinterpreted the character, not to mention totally miss the point of the ending.

That's all I've got for now. There's probably more I could rant write, but this takes care of what's really been bugging me recently. 

What? Everyone loves Samurai Champloo more than Cowboy Bebop. (Well, except me and Grave, of course)

Jeff Harris tweeted that he considers Cowboy Bebop to be a shojo. I told him only the manga is considered shojo, and then replied by listing all the qualities Bebop has in common with shojo series. Fine, but that still doesn't make the anime shojo. Why? Because the anime was not intended for pre-teen girls, but for adult men. I don't know why they decided to publish the manga as a shojo, but that doesn't mean the original work wasn't seinin.

Bu really, I just have to roll my eyes at how much anime/manga fans care about this whole seinin/shonen label thing. Not that I don't think there's similar bias among fans in japan, but really, these categories are not genres, they are demographics. A shonen series is aimed at pre-teen to 18 year old boys. That's it. Sure, there are cliches and tropes common amongst several similar titles aimed at a demographic, but those are not inherent characteristics, they are plays on the kinds of stuff that are popular with the demographic. But really, in terms of stories and possibilities, a series aimed at a particular demographic doesn't have to adapt it's conventions just because. That's why there is a diversity of series one can consider "shonen" or "seinin" and are completely different and have little in common Yotsuba and Death Note or Maison Ikkoku and Berserk. It's because they aren't genres, but demographics, and like here in the U.S., series made for a particular demographic often adopt conventions their creators believe will appeal to their audiences, and so are only limiting themselves and what kinds of series can be created for an audience by doing so, but as several properties show, this does not have to be the case. Just because a series has characteristics one might expect more from a series intended for another demographic, that does not make it any less intended, acceptable, and entertaining for the demographic it's actually aiming for.

I think fans so obsessed with "shonen" and "seinin" classifications should just realize, "hey, what the hell does it matter?" A good series is a good series, no matter who the original intended audience is, and so are bad ones. Cliches in series aimed at particular demographics is nothing new and is a problem with series in the U.S. as well though less point it out. People should just care about whether a series is good or entertaining to them rather than judging them on standards of "kids series" or "adult series," rather than caring about who a series was originally intended for.

*Walks into thread*

Quote from: Cartoon X on March 17, 2014, 10:57:03 PM
Jeff Harris tweeted that he considers Cowboy Bebop to be a shojo.

*Walks out of thread*

Well, the Cowboy Bebop manga is actually a shojo, which is probably why he thinks, by extension, the anime was too.

And again, the real problem here is that people keep trying to attribute these specific characteristics to shonen, shojo, seinin, and josei series when really, those are just labels for series intended for particular demographics, and do not reflect the variety of content in every work intended for those audiences.

Some fans just need to nitpick semantics and try to stir the pot, I guess.

It's a good series, and I'd rather leave it at that.

Unpopular Opinion:

-I think that it's a good thing for anime adaptations to make some changes to the source material if they think it's for the better. Even if I don't always like the anime better, I always appreciate it when they throw in something a bit different to keep it interesting for people who have already read the manga, while still being faithful to the source material. Occasionally we have complete changes like the first FMA anime or Trigun, and those can vary in quality depending on who you ask. Personally I love Trigun, though admittedly I haven't read too much of the manga so I don't have a strong attachment to the source material. But then there are adaptations that take some liberties from the source material while still sticking to the same general story, and in some cases can be better for it. I know a lot of people love the new HXH anime more than the old one, and while I enjoy the current one just fine, it saddens me that a simple copy/paste job is seen as better than a version that tries to add a bit of flavor to the story. To me, the 1999 anime is superior to the 2011 anime because its superior to the manga for the parts that it adapts. It's music is more inspired and it adds in some scenes to flesh out the characters more than the manga cared to. While this doesn't always work, the effort really pays off in many instances. Hell, Yu Yu Hakusho is arguably the best example of an anime that does this right. It is by far superior to the manga in every way, IMO, and at the same time it's still faithful to the source material, but also takes the time to enhance it and further flesh out the characters and world. And both anime for Ashita no Joe are excellent in many of the liberties they take from the source material, while still staying true to the most important parts of it. While I still prefer the manga to either version on the whole, Ashita no Joe 2 in particular comes really close in that many of its changes or additions can be seen as improvements. And it's funnym because there are A LOT of differences between the manga and the anime, and yet the anime at the end of the day still tells the same story as the manga. It just takes creative liberties in getting there, and once again, while not all of them work, more often then not it makes this version worth experiencing even if you've read the manga. Or, in this case, vice versa, since even though I've finished the anime, I can still appreciate the manga for what each version does differently, which personally I'm greatful for.

Yes, I will always love stuff like Monster and other similar anime adaptations for being as faithful as they are, but it's also a missed opportunity for a creative director to give their interesting yet still faithful interpretation of a manga or light novel or wht have you, rather than just give you the same exact experience except with color and voice-acting (basically a glorified motion comic).

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 17, 2014, 11:45:50 PM
Unpopular Opinion:

-I think that it's a good thing for anime adaptations to make some changes to the source material if they think it's for the better. Even if I don't always like the anime better, I always appreciate it when they throw in something a bit different to keep it interesting for people who have already read the manga, while still being faithful to the source material. Occasionally we have complete changes like the first FMA anime or Trigun, and those can vary in quality depending on who you ask. Personally I love Trigun, though admittedly I haven't read too much of the manga so I don't have a strong attachment to the source material. But then there are adaptations that take some liberties from the source material while still sticking to the same general story, and in some cases can be better for it. I know a lot of people love the new HXH anime more than the old one, and while I enjoy the current one just fine, it saddens me that a simple copy/paste job is seen as better than a version that tries to add a bit of flavor to the story. To me, the 1999 anime is superior to the 2011 anime because its superior to the manga for the parts that it adapts. It's music is more inspired and it adds in some scenes to flesh out the characters more than the manga cared to. While this doesn't always work, the effort really pays off in many instances. Hell, Yu Yu Hakusho is arguably the best example of an anime that does this right. It is by far superior to the manga in every ways, IMO, and at the same time it's still faithful to the source material, but also takes the time to enhance it and further flesh out the characters and world. And both anime for Ashita no Joe are excellent in many of the liberties they take from the source material, while still staying true to the most important parts of it. While I still prefer the manga to either version on the whole, Ashita no Joe 2 in particular comes really close in that many of its changes or additions can be seen as improvements. And it's funnym because there are A LOT of differences between the manga and the anime, and yet the anime at the end of the day still tells the same story as the manga. It just takes creative liberties in getting there, and once again, while not all of them work, more often then not it makes this version worth experiencing even if you've read the manga. Or, in this case, vice versa, since even though I've finished the anime, I can still appreciate the manga for what each version does differently, which personally I'm greatful for.

Yes, I will always love stuff like Monster and other similar anime adaptations for being as faithful as they are, but it's also a missed opportunity for a creative director to give their interesting yet still faithful interpretation of a manga or light novel or wht have you, rather than just give you the same exact experience except with color and voice-acting (basically a glorified motion comic).

To bounce off your point: I entirely agree which is why I dislike filler arcs.

If you're going to have all that new material that builds on everything that made the series great in the first place, then you have to make the filler mean something or its all worthless. Who cares what character or plot device you introduce if you can't even use them in the actual story so the elements actually matter?

It's always too much of a missed opportunity to me.

Well, as far as filler arcs go, I think those are gradually beginning to be phased out of many adaptations entirely. It seems as though many anime studios are steadily adopting the approach of adapting anime in 26-episode seasons each year, rather than the usual year-round schedule, for long-running manga. This allows the anime to adapt the manga at a steady pace while also giving the manga sufficient time to keep a gap and stay ahead so that the anime doesn't have to resort to filler. The problem lies in that many of these series are then just doing the copy/paste routine. For example, Kuroko no Basket is basically the exact same thing as the manga, for better or worse. Unless you really just want to see the manga with motion and voice-acting, there's no real reason to watch the anime if you've already seen the manga. If you haven't read the manga and prefer watching to reading yet still want the same story, then the anime is a no brainier. For everyone else, it depends on if you basically just want to see the motion comic version of the series.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 17, 2014, 11:51:09 PM
To bounce off your point: I entirely agree which is why I dislike filler arcs.

If you're going to have all that new material that builds on everything that made the series great in the first place, then you have to make the filler mean something or its all worthless. Who cares what character or plot device you introduce if you can't even use them in the actual story so the elements actually matter?

It's always too much of a missed opportunity to me.

I think the problem producers have with making filler arcs mean something to the overall story is that they can't have the characters or story be affected that much by what happens because they might end up contradicting the source material later on.

It's a wasted opportunity, for sure, but unless the producers are willing to risk creating a completely different story it seems impossible to pull off to me.

I think the best kind of filler is one that helps set up and embellish canonical stuff. My favorite use of filler is probably in Dragon Ball, especially in the early parts of the Red Ribbon Army arc. In the manga, Colonel Silver was a one-chapter foe that Goku defeats quickly and that's that. But in the anime, we see him, and the Red Ribbon Army, in action, and we see that they are a dangerous force to be reckoned with and a real threat, something that doesn't quite come across so much in the manga. Not only that, but having Pilaf be apart of the early stuff was brilliant since it makes the reveal of him being the holder of the last dragon ball in the Baba arc feel more natural and set up, not to mention the anime's occasional reappearances of Chi Chi and Ox King was something that proved useful for the 23rd Budokai arc.

Anyways, I totally agree that anime adaptations should take liberties and try to make the source material work better as an animated series, be it long or short form. Magi did good with this, cutting out some less potent parts in the story and recombining others to make the first season a self-contained but effective season, and I think it improved on what it adapted as a whole. InuYasha: The Final Act also benefitted by cutting out some of the less needed stuff in the final volumes of the manga and streamlining the key points in the story. While I do miss some of the stuff it took out, especially in regards to the Moryomaru arc, overall they did what they needed to do and did so more than effectively, including adding original scenes that I think really benefitted the flow of the story, which is why I really enjoyed watching Final Act even though the first anime is such a slog to me (though that's also for many reasons other than just the pacing). Maison Ikkoku removes an entire character and several smaller stories from the manga while adding new ones, and reorganizes the order of the events, which I think helped the show flow a lot better than if they tried to adapt it too faithfully (Nikaido wasn't really essential to the story, fun as he was). The Urusei Yatsura and Ranma 1/2 animes benefit from loosely adapting the stories and playing around with them, not to mention adding actually great original characters like Megane and Sauske to the mix and doing clever things with anime original episodes. And Joe 2 has wondorous anime original content that, like EK said, improves on some aspects on the story (specifically, I prefer how the anime handles Nishii and enjoy the repeated appearances of Gondo and the anime original investigator character).

Sometimes, though, anime adaptions can fuck shit up by trying to change things too much. Going back to The Final Act, while I loved most of it, there is one, single episode I actually really hate; what they did with the Hitomiko arc which comprises episode 16. They added some nonsense about the meaning behind Kagome's name and hyped her as having some special power, and not only was none of that stuff there in the manga, but it doesn't have any real effect on the ending at all and totally missed the point of the original version. And don't get me started on the shit Toei did to Toriko. It was bad enough that they took out so much of the over the top violence and then dragged the fights out to boring as hell levels, but then they had to go and add stupid filler comedy and a completely useless anime only character among other shit. Couple this with godawful cheap animation and you have one of the worst adaptions of a manga ever. Anyway, my point is there should be moderation and whatever is added should add to the depth and enjoyment of the story while not contradicting it and changing why people enjoy it in the first place, and thankfully, the best anime adaptions like Yu Yu Hakusho and Dragon Ball do just that.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 17, 2014, 11:57:22 PM
Well, as far as filler arcs go, I think those are gradually beginning to be phased out of many adaptations entirely. It seems as though many anime studios are steadily adopting the approach of adapting anime in 26-episode seasons each year, rather than the usual year-round schedule, for long-running manga. This allows the anime to adapt the manga at a steady pace while also giving the manga sufficient time to keep a gap and stay ahead so that the anime doesn't have to resort to filler. The problem lies in that many of these series are then just doing the copy/paste routine. For example, Kuroko no Basket is basically the exact same thing as the manga, for better or worse. Unless you really just want to see the manga with motion and voice-acting, there's no real reason to watch the anime if you've already seen the manga. If you haven't read the manga and prefer watching to reading yet still want the same story, then the anime is a no brainier. For everyone else, it depends on if you basically just want to see the motion comic version of the series.

This is why I appreciate what the Magi anime did. The first season condensed and reorganized 115 chapters of story in 25 episodes, adjusting the pacing of the parts of the story when the need arose, and nearly completely altered the Zagann arc in ways I think not only improved it as a whole but also made it work better as an ending to the season. The second season, while I have some problems with the direction of some things compared to the manga in regards to the Magnostadt arc (I really think they fumbled Mogamett's backstory), it's still a fairly different experience watching it than reading it and I can appreciate that.

Really, I quite appreciate anime that are willing to take more liberties from their source material, and not only that, but rework it when necessary to make the story work better as a show rather than a comic.

I'm more interested in anime comedies than action series these days. Though, this is true with tv shows in general. My tv watching time is ever dwindling and I just don't have the patience anymore to sit through many episodes of a continuing story, especially if it's over 26 episodes. Slice of life and comedy series, though, are entertaining on an episode to episode level for the most part and while they have stories that move forward too I can feel more at ease watching them at a leisurely pace. When I'm into an action show I can marathon though maybe 10 episodes at a time, time-permitting (at most, I once watched 23 episodes of Monster in a day), but normally my patience wears thin the longer the run is and I'm more likely to put it off. Also, I don't tend to re-watch action series much these days. The anime I revisit the most often lately, Bobobo, Ranma, Urusei Yatsura, and Lupin, are all comedy series where I can just watch any random episode and be satisfied, whereas with an action show one episode usually doesn't cut it as a casual viewing. But it's also telling that of the new anime I've been most into only Kill la Kill is an action series, while Space Dandy and Zvezda Plot are comedies and Silver Spoon is a slice-of life (and a damn well-written and emotional one, at that. Seriously puts FMA to shame...). Even though I've been loving the heck out of Kill la Kill and Joe 2, I probably won't revisit them for a long time, whereas I can see myself watching a random Dandy episode pretty often. Really, comedies are something I feel up to watching when I'm in a good mood or not, while I need to be in a specific mood to be motivated to watch an action show or something really serious, and so I get more out of the comedies I like at the end of the day, and I feel more drawn to watch a comedy or slice of life series than an action one because of that.

Honestly, if it's a series that I really love, action or otherwise, I can easily revisit my favorite chapters/episodes of it as many times as I want without having to re-watch it in any particular order. My case in point is that I've read many parts of AnJ multiple times already because it's just that damn good, IMO, and I have also watched the final episode of Joe 2 a total of 3 times, so far.

And don't even get me started on YYH. To be honest, the last time that I re-watched the show in chronological order from start to finish was in 2006. Ever since then I've done nothing but re-watch any particular episodes that I'm in the mood for, though collectives I've seen the show more than a half-dozen times so far if you add it all up. Honestly, no single other show, episodic or otherwise, has ever gotten even close to as much re-watch value for me, personally.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 23, 2014, 10:03:43 PM
Honestly, if it's a series that I really love, action or otherwise, I can easily revisit my favorite chapters/episodes of it as many times as I want without having to re-watch it in any particular order. My case in point is that I've read many parts of AnJ multiple times already because it's just that damn good

So have I, actually. I heave re-read Joe and Rikishi's last fight, in particular, thrice. I should have clarified my feelings are more about anime and not at all manga. Manga is easier for me to revisit than anime, for many reasons, partially because it's just faster, but mainly because I find the experience of reading stories more engaging than watching and listening to them, these days. I also just find myself preferring manga to anime in general nowadays, honestly. I manage to feel more excited to read a really great manga and get closer to finishing my immense backlog for it than with anime and my anime backlog, which just seems exhausting to me.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on March 23, 2014, 10:03:43 PM
And don't even get me started on YYH. To be honest, the last time that I re-watched the show in chronological order from start to finish was in 2006. Ever since then I've done nothing but re-watch any particular episodes that I'm in the mood for, though collectives I've seen the show more than a half-dozen times so far if you add it all up. Honestly, no single other show, episodic or otherwise, has ever gotten even close to as much re-watch value for me, personally.

YYH is actually the action show I've rewached the most. I've seen the first 32 episodes especially at least a dozen times because as a kid I watched it almost every day on Colors tv and I would watch episodes we ripped from the dvds on our iPhone in the car or on buses during long trips, not to mention we went through the dvds frequently as well. Me and Vlord especially tended to revisit the Saint Beast arc and Team Uratogi fight, so we've had to seen those more than a dozen times by now as well. Otherwise, I think I've seen every episode in the show a minimum of 6 times, with the exception of the Dr. Ichigaki and Team Masho fights, which I've only seen two or three times, I think.

That still doesn't compare to how much I've watched Bobobo. I manage to go through one or two runs of Bobobo every year just by watching the episodes randomly whenever I feel like it. By now I have seen every episode in the show two dozen times by now, and I still find myself drawn back to my favorite episodes. South Park is the same deal for me. Their re-watch value for me is one of the biggest factors as to why they are my two favorite animated series, really.

Precure is modestly entertaining.

I'm sorry but Hunter X Hunter 1999 OST < Hunter X Hunter 2011 OST.

-Kill La Kill > TTGL

-Kids on the Slope may be my favorite show from Watanabe; I love Cowboy Bebop and Space a Dandy, but this show just has themes and characters that resonate with me stronger than those 2 shows and his other famous one, which brings me to....

-Samurai Champloo: other than a couple of episodes in particular, I don't really care for it, personally

-Also on the subject of Watanabe, while I like Space Dandy, I still personally think that Level E is a better Sci-Fi/Supernatural Wacky Alien Space Comedy, this is partly due to my Togashi bias, but also because I find the incredibly insane story ideas presented in Level E to be much more entertaining, personally

-Full Metal Panic! Is the only thing that I've ever liked from KyoAni, which brings me to....

-I can't fucking stand KyoAni; I don't like moe, but their obsession with it isn't why I don't like them; It's their obnoxious up-their-own-ass-itude about it

-I completely disagree with the common criticism that Wolf Children's narrative is flawed just because it becomes more focused on the kids in the second half; it's purposely made like one of those movies that starts out in one generation and ends with the coming of age of the next generation; it's a story about life, and it's not Summer Wars which is clearly an action epic (sort of), so I don't know why it's judged by the standards of very different types of movies

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 07, 2014, 09:40:25 PM
-Kill La Kill > TTGL

I like TTGL, but I also prefer Kill la Kill. It has a more rough energy to it's craziness, and I find the characters an storyline on the whole more interesting and appealing. I also feel TTGL lost momentum at the start of the second half (before becoming insanely over the top in the final few episodes), while Kill la Kill was always an addictive, and exciting watch, and played with my expectations and emotions a little bit stronger.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 07, 2014, 09:40:25 PM-Kids on the Slope may be my favorite show from Watanabe; I love Cowboy Bebop and Space a Dandy, but this show just has themes and characters that resonate with me stronger than those 2 shows and his other famous one, which brings me to....

I still need to watch Kids on the Slope. Considering I'm gravitating towards more slice-of-life type kind of stories in fiction nowadays, I have a feeling I'd really like it.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 07, 2014, 09:40:25 PM
-Also on the subject of Watanabe, while I like Space Dandy, I still personally think that Level E is a better Sci-Fi/Supernatural Wacky Alien Space Comedy, this is partly due to my Togashi bias, but also because I find the incredibly insane story ideas presented in Level E to be much more entertaining, personally

I also think Level E was more consistent, and is more consistently entertaining than Dandy, though Dandy at it's highs is stronger than Level E at it's best for me personally. Of course, my favorite sic-fi/wacky alien space comedy is by far Urusei Yatsura, because not only is that series incredibly inventive and diverse with it's stories, it also has a huge ensemble cast with incredibly appealing strong personalities and subtle but wonderful character development. On that note, I'd say the series' 12th OVA is also personally the "funniest" anime episode I've ever watched, imo, and I've watched and read my fair share of anime comedies.  :D

Some unpopular opinions of my own:

- Pokemon: Diamond & Pearl is easily the best Pokemon series. Not to say it's a great show, because it still has filler and pacing issues, but the character arcs are much better, the villains were integrated into the plot and characterized much better, the rivals were likable, had a role in the story outside of just being rivals, and were fleshed out characters, and the final battle between Satoshi and Shinji at the Sinnoh league is by far the best battle in the anime franchise and constitutes it's best episodes as well.

- I prefer the Lina and Naga duo than the main quartet of Line, Gourry, Zelgadis, and Amelia in Slayers. Lina and Naga just have more chemistry together than Lina has with anyone in the tv animes, and I do love those characters and their interactions a lot as well. It's just that Lina and Naga play off each other and create comedy more naturally than the core cast often does, and are more fun to watch in just about any situation, especially when they are at each other's throats. I really wish they made a Slayers Special tv anime, because 6 OVA episodes and 4 movies just ain't enough Lina and Naga goodness, imo.

- The weakest part of the Ranma 1/2 anime is the "second season;" aka, Hard Battle. That season has the worst animation, the worst episodes featuring Happosai, and in general has a weaker ratio of great to meh episodes than the others. Now, the best part of the anime is easily the final three seasons and the OVAs. I really disagree with people who prefer the first half over the second half. The second half has more creative concepts and is a lot more consistent (and the average episode is a heck lot more funnier, imo). How anyone can prefer the second season to the sixth is beyond me.

Hmm, Level E is like Space Dandy?

Quote from: gunswordfist on April 07, 2014, 10:09:20 PM
Hmm, Level E is like Space Dandy?

They are both episodic and generally not-continuity heavy series that have diversified stories from episode to episode, combining sci-fi and wacky alien shenanigans with out-there ideas.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 07, 2014, 09:40:25 PM
-Kill La Kill > TTGL

To each their own, I suppose.

Quote-Kids on the Slope may be my favorite show from Watanabe; I love Cowboy Bebop and Space a Dandy, but this show just has themes and characters that resonate with me stronger than those 2 shows and his other famous one

I still prefer Bebop, but I completely agree. And hey, the more publicity Art Blakey gets the better.

Quote-Also on the subject of Watanabe, while I like Space Dandy, I still personally think that Level E is a better Sci-Fi/Supernatural Wacky Alien Space Comedy, this is partly due to my Togashi bias, but also because I find the incredibly insane story ideas presented in Level E to be much more entertaining, personally

I still need to watch Level E. I remember Vic Mignogna saying a lot of good things about that show.

Quote from: The Shadow Gentleman on April 08, 2014, 07:07:21 AM
I still need to watch Level E. I remember Vic Mignogna saying a lot of good things about that show.

Well, of course he would. He does play the main character on that show after all.  :D

But yeah, it's a fun series, and worth checking out if you want to see something very different from Togashi's main two works.

Quote from: Cartoon X on April 08, 2014, 09:50:22 AM
Well, of course he would. He does play the main character on that show after all.  :D

Yeah, him talking about how fun it was to play the main character is what really got me interested in checking it out.

I thought Kids on the Slope was just some short from him, lol.

Quote from: The Shadow Gentleman on April 08, 2014, 10:15:42 AM

Quote from: Cartoon X on April 08, 2014, 09:50:22 AM
Well, of course he would. He does play the main character on that show after all.  :D

Yeah, him talking about how fun it was to play the main character is what really got me interested in checking it out.

If only he felt that way about Broly. :>

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 07, 2014, 09:40:25 PM
-Kill La Kill > TTGL

Well JO agrees. (http://jesuotaku.tumblr.com/post/82120553294/what-anime-you-think-is-better-kill-la-kill-or-gurren)

That seems to be the first time that I've agreed with her on something in a while.

Let me know when she continues the Digimon or Trigun feature.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on April 08, 2014, 04:36:18 PM
Let me know when she continues the Digimon or Trigun feature.

Eh, she might work on one of them for a half hour, and come up with 5 lamer ideas to use instead. Like always. ;)

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on April 08, 2014, 04:36:18 PM
Let me know when she continues the Digimon or Trigun feature.

Tell her that on Twitter, and she'll block you for trying to stifle her confidence or whatnot.

Madoka Magica Rebellion was a great conclusion to the anime, and I don't think it really needs a direct sequel. Though a sequel set in the same universe with different characters would be fine.

Yeah, I don't really see what a sequel to it could do to really add onto the story without sacrificing what made that movie a powerful conclusion. I'd rather they leave that ending as is.

Quote from: Rynnec on May 22, 2014, 05:10:11 PM
Madoka Magica Rebellion was a great conclusion to the anime, and I don't think it really needs a direct sequel. Though a sequel set in the same universe with different characters would be fine.

Quote from: Cartoon X on May 22, 2014, 05:15:22 PM
Yeah, I don't really see what a sequel to it could do to really add onto the story without sacrificing what made that movie a powerful conclusion. I'd rather they leave that ending as is.

Agreed 100%.

The thing is, the only reason that the Rebellion movie exists is to extend the story and allow them to continue making something else in the future. Madoka is too much of a popular property to be allowed to wither away without more milking. Don't expect that movie will be the last any of us will see of it.

The first 3 seasons of Digimon (yes, even Adventure 02) >>>> Any season of Pokemon

I say this knowing that the latter is far more popular.

Pokemon is something I don't think I should go back to. I mean, I love the first season, but I'm sure a massive reason for that is nostalgia. I have so much overwhelming nostalgia for the first season. Nowadays, I do think I could still watch individual episodes of it and love it for that reason. But I think that, if I were to go through and rewatch the entire season, I would see that it was never all that good. So I think it might just be better to remember it for what it was to me.

Eh. I have watched the early seasons of Pokemon several times over the years. And though I think it is a repetitive show with significant pacing and story issues, I think the original series is still a fun show to watch. Is the original series better than the first three seasons of Digimon? Fuck no. The first series of Pokemon never had a good plot or character development. But it's not the p.o.s a lot of people fear it is. You could probably enjoy it for what it is, an amusing monster-battle kids show, and I think there's nothing wrong with that.

Diamond and Pearl is, however, easily the best of the Pokemon anime. Strong overarching character arcs with a fantastic payoff to the core rivalry of Satoshi and Shinji (Ash and Paul for you dubbies) in what is easily the best battle in the entire series. Not to say I don't have problems with it (I have a fair amount), but it's still the best of them overall and I certainly don't say that out of nostalgia. I definitely prefer it to Digimon Adventure 02.

On the subject of Pokemon anime, I'll just chime in (again?) that Black & White is easily the worst of the 5.

I will also say that the Pokemon Adventures manga is excellent and leagues better than any of the anime.

On the tangent of kids toyetic anime series I'll also say that while I think the anime is crap I also think that the original Yu-Gi-Oh! manga is actually pretty good, the Millennium World arc being really good, and it's ending is one of the strongest I've seen in a shonen manga.

As far as the toyetic kinda anime series to, I have to say that, aside from Ditimon, I found the first 3 seasons of Zoids to be pretty entertaining, and they had surprisingly more substance to them than you'd expect for a show that was essentially meant to market toy models. It did help that the concept was essentially Gundam meets Pokemon, though.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on June 13, 2014, 08:48:30 PM
The first 3 seasons of Digimon (yes, even Adventure 02) >>>> Any season of Pokemon

I say this knowing that the latter is far more popular.

I've had the same opinion about both franchises I've always had.

Games
Pokemon > Digimon

Anime
Digimon > Pokemon

I actually kind of like Xros Wars.

Xros Wars was awesome. Second favorite season after Tamers.

The less said about Young Hunters though, the better. :whuh:

My favorite Pokemon series are as follow

1. Diamond and Pearl (DP)
2. Advance Generations (AG)
3. Original/Kanto/Johto/Orange Island (OG)
4. Black and White (BW)

while I am watching XY right now, I am saving my opinion on it until a year has passed. While I do like the direction XY is going into, it does have some flaws, mostly with Serena doing like nothing but having a childhood crush/wanting the D on Ash. Does feel like a step down from May and Dawn, who had their own fully developed arcs. Iris's... kind of fell flat on her face, so Serena already has a leg up on her is better than that. While Clemont and Bonnie, I love their chemistry together and their gag is a nice twist on Brock's old one, this time it's Bonnie that hits on girls for her brother, while Clemont drags her away. That and Bonnie is probably the cutest character in the series right now. Still waiting for one of my favorite mons of Gen VI, Hawlucha, to join the roster.

Hawlucha being on Satoshi's team is something I'm looking forward to. But Serena needs to find a damn goal already, not to mention catch some more pokemon. 30+ episodes in, and she still only has Fennekin.   :whuh:

Yeah, that bugs me as well. I understand that there are only 72 new Pokemon this generation, knock out 6 of them since those are legendary Pokemon (Yes, I am counting Diancie, Hoopa, & Volcanion), which only leaves 66 possible mons to use/capture for the gang, but you're telling me you can't give the girl another Pokemon from another region? Considering that the Kalos dex is the most diverse dex in any main line game, you would think they would let Serena or Clemont catch them and just save Kalos mons for Ash. Though, I can forgive Clemont since those episodes that took place in Lumiose City did show that he does probably have his in-game team waiting at the gym, so catching Pokemon probably isn't a priority for him.

I never thought I'd hear CX say fuck.

As a character, Perfect Cell makes a lot more sense than Frieza. Frieza claimed to be this smart general or whatever but he kept on playing around with saiyans, even in his fight with Vegeta's son. A big part of his character was fearing what Saiyans could do but he never took it seriously enough. Cell is a mish mash of a bunch of arrogant, fight loving characters so him not just blowing up Earth from the getgo (the first thing Frieza should have done when he saw the planet) makes sense.

Quote from: gunswordfist on June 23, 2014, 08:40:34 PM
As a character, Perfect Cell makes a lot more sense than Frieza. Frieza claimed to be this smart general or whatever but he kept on playing around with saiyans, even in his fight with Vegeta's son. A big part of his character was fearing what Saiyans could do but he never took it seriously enough. Cell is a mish mash of a bunch of arrogant, fight loving characters so him not just blowing up Earth from the getgo (the first thing Frieza should have done when he saw the planet) makes sense.

Interesting take.

I will readily admit that Frieza is not my favorite character (or villain, that would be Vegeta) in DBZ, but while he is a crafty fighter, he readily lets his arrogance take him down a peg. That's not something Vegeta ever did, but Frieza does it constantly in Namek from leaving the Dragon Balls unguarded, to playing around with his victims, to not taking anyone seriously as a threat, he caused his own problems. If he would have acted earlier, he would have won. But, honestly? I'm okay with that. Seeing the villain done in by his own personality flaw is something I like.

Perfect Cell, meanwhile, was arrogant and cocky, but he was restrained and never underestimated anybody. The only reason he lost was because Gohan was better. That's it. At the same time, it sort of makes his defeat boring in retrospect to me, but I can't say I didn't like it.

Nonetheless, it still doesn't make me like his arc better than Frieza's.  ;)

I like the whole passing of the guard that was signified when Gohan defeated Cell. I've been saying this for years but it would have been better if Gohan stayed the guardian of the earth and the Buu saga never happened.

Also, I like Frieza as much as Perfect Cell. I think Cell gets dumped on too much and is considered "lol evil Goku" by too many. I thought the cell/Android saga was fun and Cell was a good fit for that because he wasn't just another villain that killed everyone in his way. Of course the first version did but once I think about it, he was the only one that was kill happy. Imperfect just went after the Android and everyone else challenged him, from what I remember.

And even in the case of his first form, it was out of necessity since he was outclassed by the combined strength of the Z Warriors, and needed every bit of energy he absorbed.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on June 23, 2014, 08:48:05 PM

Quote from: gunswordfist on June 23, 2014, 08:40:34 PM
As a character, Perfect Cell makes a lot more sense than Frieza. Frieza claimed to be this smart general or whatever but he kept on playing around with saiyans, even in his fight with Vegeta's son. A big part of his character was fearing what Saiyans could do but he never took it seriously enough. Cell is a mish mash of a bunch of arrogant, fight loving characters so him not just blowing up Earth from the getgo (the first thing Frieza should have done when he saw the planet) makes sense.

Interesting take.

Perfect Cell, meanwhile, was arrogant and cocky, but he was restrained and never underestimated anybody. The only reason he lost was because Gohan was better. That's it.

I'd say Perfect Cell did underestimate Gohan. He wanted to see his hidden potential out of curiosity, and clearly didn't think that Gohan was going to overpower him once it was unlocked, which is why he was confused and infuriated when the tables were turned on him. His ultimate defeat was also due to carelessness, being distracted by a surprise attack by Vegeta, which allowed Gohan an opportunity to overpower him in their kamehameha wave standoff.

Quote from: Cartoon X on June 23, 2014, 09:19:04 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on June 23, 2014, 08:48:05 PM

Quote from: gunswordfist on June 23, 2014, 08:40:34 PM
As a character, Perfect Cell makes a lot more sense than Frieza. Frieza claimed to be this smart general or whatever but he kept on playing around with saiyans, even in his fight with Vegeta's son. A big part of his character was fearing what Saiyans could do but he never took it seriously enough. Cell is a mish mash of a bunch of arrogant, fight loving characters so him not just blowing up Earth from the getgo (the first thing Frieza should have done when he saw the planet) makes sense.

Interesting take.

Perfect Cell, meanwhile, was arrogant and cocky, but he was restrained and never underestimated anybody. The only reason he lost was because Gohan was better. That's it.

I'd say Perfect Cell did underestimate Gohan. He wanted to see his hidden potential out of curiosity, and clearly didn't think that Gohan was going to overpower him once it was unlocked, which is why he was confused and infuriated when the tables were turned on him. His ultimate defeat was also due to carelessness, being distracted by a surprise attack by Vegeta, which allowed Gohan an opportunity to overpower him in their kamehameha wave standoff.

You're right, he did. But I don't think it was quite the same as how Frieza would underestimate everyone out of blind arrogance but out of a mistake that Cell simply didn't understand what Gohan could do when pushed far enough. It was careless, but I wouldn't readily put it down to insane arrogance. (That was mostly saved for when Goku died teleporting him out and blowing up... which was honestly a pretty lame turn, to be honest)

As a side-note, the "potential" thing was something I'm a bit annoyed they never did with Krillin since he technically killed Vegeta on Namek in order for him to get healed by Dende during the Frieza scuffle. He was clearly a lot more powerful than he ended up being portrayed as.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on June 23, 2014, 09:24:35 PM

As a side-note, the "potential" thing was something I'm a bit annoyed they never did with Krillin since he technically killed Vegeta on Namek in order for him to get healed by Dende during the Frieza scuffle. He was clearly a lot more powerful than he ended up being portrayed as.

Well, Krillin is stated to be the strongest human on Earth and I remember it being stated somewhere that by the end of the series he was around as strong as Freeza. Of course, by that point all the villains were way stronger than Freeza, so he couldn't do much. But as for him almost killing Vegeta on Namek, Vegeta wanted to get close to near death as possible, so he dropped his defenses, and Krillin at that point was easily strong enough to damage Vegeta that much if the latter wasn't going to fight back.

Quote from: Cartoon X on June 23, 2014, 09:36:33 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on June 23, 2014, 09:24:35 PM

As a side-note, the "potential" thing was something I'm a bit annoyed they never did with Krillin since he technically killed Vegeta on Namek in order for him to get healed by Dende during the Frieza scuffle. He was clearly a lot more powerful than he ended up being portrayed as.

Well, Krillin is stated to be the strongest human on Earth and I remember it being stated somewhere that by the end of the series he was around as strong as Freeza. Of course, by that point all the villains were way stronger than Freeza, so he couldn't do much. But as for him almost killing Vegeta on Namek, Vegeta wanted to get close to near death as possible, so he dropped his defenses, and Krillin at that point was easily strong enough to damage Vegeta that much if the latter wasn't going to fight back.

Yeah, he is given respect, but its almost always outside the current storyline, unfortunately. That said, I did like that Toriyama threw him that bone by the series end.

Quote from: Rynnec on June 23, 2014, 09:14:14 PM
And even in the case of his first form, it was out of necessity since he was outclassed by the combined strength of the Z Warriors, and needed every bit of energy he absorbed.

That's true. He had to flee due to not even being able to handle Piccolo at the time. I still don't like that creep though. :bleh:

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on June 23, 2014, 09:45:52 PM

Quote from: Cartoon X on June 23, 2014, 09:36:33 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on June 23, 2014, 09:24:35 PM

As a side-note, the "potential" thing was something I'm a bit annoyed they never did with Krillin since he technically killed Vegeta on Namek in order for him to get healed by Dende during the Frieza scuffle. He was clearly a lot more powerful than he ended up being portrayed as.

Well, Krillin is stated to be the strongest human on Earth and I remember it being stated somewhere that by the end of the series he was around as strong as Freeza. Of course, by that point all the villains were way stronger than Freeza, so he couldn't do much. But as for him almost killing Vegeta on Namek, Vegeta wanted to get close to near death as possible, so he dropped his defenses, and Krillin at that point was easily strong enough to damage Vegeta that much if the latter wasn't going to fight back.

Yeah, he is given respect, but its almost always outside the current storyline, unfortunately. That said, I did like that Toriyama threw him that bone by the series end.

I liked Krillin's role in the Cell saga. I don't remember him doing much in the Buu saga though. Watching Tien not even be able to hurt Buu with a surprise attack sucked after something like the Imperfect Cell fight, hell I think he helped against Perfect Cell too. The gap in during was insane in that arc.

I haven't seen the anime version of the Buu saga in a while, but if Tien attacked Buu, then it must have been an anime-only scene. I really don't recall that happening in the manga.

No, it's in the manga as well. Tenshinhan distracts Super Buu with a sneak attack before the latter nearly kills Gohan. He is quickly dispatched soon after and is forgotten for the rest of the fight.

Hmm, so he did do some good. :'( Tear of happiness.

Quote from: Cartoon X on June 23, 2014, 11:17:39 PMHe is quickly dispatched soon after and is forgotten for the rest of the fight.

Sigh.

Quote from: Cartoon X on June 23, 2014, 11:17:39 PM
No, it's in the manga as well. Tenshinhan distracts Super Buu with a sneak attack before the latter nearly kills Gohan. He is quickly dispatched soon after and is forgotten for the rest of the fight.

I'll need to re-read the manga, then. It's been far too long. I hardly even recall him being in that arc outside of that cameo when Goku is powering up to SSJ3, though it is a shame that he had such a bit role in the arc to begin with.

I forget if I already said this before but Inuyasha movie 2 is clearly better than movie 4. Back when they first aired on as, people were talking about how movie 2 was kind of boring and how movie 4 was "epic". I didn't care for the main villain's henchmen and Inuyasha's fight with the main villain was just him smashing the guy in no time. It was a stupid waste of time. In movie 2, I don't remember that being dull and I loved the part where Kagara beats Inuyasha's ass in his own movie. :D Also, I REALLY love that Naraku showed up at the end. Anime movies almost never have main villains show up. That's something I'd like to see more often.

Personally, I found all the InuYasha movies really boring and standard shonen anime movies.  Of them I guess I like Swords of an Honorable Ruler the best, if only because Sesshomaru has a major role in it and for the canonical backstory of how Ino no Taisho died being shown at the beginning.

In general, I find movies based on shonen anime/manga franchises rather forgettable. Some, like One Piece's Strong World and Film Z can be fun flicks, but even those ones I'm not really itching to watch again anytime soon. 

I know I've said this before, but I think the Urusei Yatsura movies are the best anime movies based on a shonen anime/manga franchise by far. No other shonen anime/manga series really comes close to me in having so many enjoyable and highly rewatchable films. Plus, Beautiful Dreamer is pretty much universally considered a masterpiece and it and Lum the Forever are my two favorite anime films, though I can see why the latter can be hit or miss for some people.

I liked the 2nd and 3rd movies. I forget about the first.

Does Lupin count? Because if so, Lupin wins here. Well classic Lupin. I tried a new movie or two and they weren't that good.

Lupin is seinin, and I was talking only about shonen anime/manga franchises. But even then, I'd still say the Urusei Yatsura films are my favorite franchise-based films. But I do think Lupin does have a lot of good movies, although some of the tv special movies are kind of meh, imo.

That's why I asked. :bleh: I'd pick DBZ then.

Y'know, I don't think there's a single DBZ movie that I still like.  :D

I still enjoy the Dragon Ball films, though.

I liked the one centered on Future Trunks and the one on Bardock. I'm not too big on the rest.

I like both of those as well, but I'm pretty sure that both were originally TV specials, not actual DTV movies.

So, the two TV specials? I like Broly, Fusion Reborn and Cooler's revenge is alright.

I didn't like any of the Broly movies, myself. I don't get what made him so popular in the first place. I mean, clearly he must have resonated with some fans considering that they featured him in 3 of the DBZ movies, but it's not like there was anything interesting about his character. Hell, he didn't even have any character besides yelling and screaming a lot.

I don't think the beginning of Yu yu Hakusho or Hunter X Hunter (both series) are too slow at all. Especially YYH. The beginning showed you how much heart the characters had. It was necessary.

I agree. The early parts of both series have great character building. Though, I could see how some don't like the first few chapters of the YYH manga, since the first two volumes of that are practically gag-manga that isn't anything like the rest of the series.

I'm tired of seeing so many 1-dimensional villains in so many shounen manga. Don't get me wrong, a lot of manga I like have this problem, such as One Piece, Magi, and....well, those 2, anyways. I even like some villains from One Piece like Sir Crocodile and whatnot, but it now seems to be a staple of shounen to have villains who are 1-dimensionally evil in not only their ambitions, but their personalities as well. I hate it even more when the only way they get expanded upon is by giving them some cliche tragic back story that poorly develops them and is meant to make us care about them (Naruto in particular has abused this trope to hell and back).

I just kind of which we had more complex villains, like Toguro, Sensui, Chrollo, Pakunoda, Meruem, Shishio, Enishi, and so on. Togashi is one of the only mangaka who still knows how to do villains right and makes them interesting.

Or hell, sometimes we don't even need a villain at all, at least not in the traditional sense. Sports manga in particular could benefit from this. I mean, almost every shounen sports manga that I've read seems to boil down to some dude being a fucking prick for no reason other than he's better than everyone else, and then only seems to grow some more nuanced features to his personality when he gets beaten. Kuroko no Basket has done this a bit too much, for my liking, but almost every other shounen sports series is guilty of this to some degree as well. That is all of course for Ashita no Joe, which has no villains, at least not in the traditional sense (the closest we ever get are those corrupt managers who run the JBC behind the scenes, but they don't last for long). I'll give some props to Eyeshield 21 since it's more comedic in nature and seems self-aware of the trope, even mocking it to some degree, but overall there are just too many series that blindly follow this trope.

I just want interesting villains again. And like I said, you don't have to be super-complex to be great. Even villains like Dio or Fieza, who aren't incredibly nuanced, can still be fun based on their engaging personalities. But most shounen manga these days even lack that much, since they seem to think that being evil in and of itself counts as a defining personality trait.

I notice you only listed villains from Yu Yu Hakusho, Hunter X Hunter, and Rurouni Kenshin. It's sad that three manga, two of which by the same author, seem to offer the bulk of the most interesting villains from the entire battle shonen genre.

The way I see it, writers should approach creating villains by making a character first, one that has layers to his personality and feels like a genuine person. I think Togashi understands that better than anyone working in shonen manga right now, which is why the majority of the important villains in his series have layers to who they are and how they behave and sometimes even have their own character arcs in the story. There is nothing wrong with super evil villains, but what makes characters like Dio and Freeza work is that they have strong, well-defined personalities and, in fact, even while their motivations are one-dimensional, aspects of their personality, like Dio's respect for Johnathan and Freeza's pretense of being a gentleman, help give them an identity on which to understand and appreciate them. I feel that a lot of writers nowadays just think up a cool character and make them cruel or whatever and make them a villain. Villain teams are comprised of tried and true stereotypes done to death existing only for the protagonists to each get their own one on one in the arc. That is not a good approach. Ideally, every villain, both the big bad of an arc and his subordinates, are all good characters in their own rights and serve a purpose in the story. Sometimes the JoJo's approach of an endless string of villains with crazy powers works, but with that series it's the craziness, originality, and ingenuity that goes into it's battles in addition to a well-rounded cast of main characters and main villain that make it the glorious entertainment that it is most of the time, and most shonen mangaka could never replicate Araki in making a series like that. So instead, I think most mangaka should make villains that behave like actual people, rather than caricatures of people.

I think  there are two major villains in modern shonen manga that I am particularly fond of that illustrate my point.

First, as far as Magi goes, I thought Matal Mogamett was a great character. Despite his kind, caring personality and dedication to helping Magicians he harbors deep-rooted resentment of non-magicians (goi) and several bad, unfortunate experiences in his past made him come to hate them, that same hatred also driving him to want to create a Magician's country. Mogamett's interactions with Aladdin and Titus show that he can be selfless and understanding when it comes to fellow magicians, but he's come to the point where he can't even see non-magicians as human beings anymore and the entire class and magic system of Magnostadt reflects that, as non-magicians, the majority of the people of Magnostadt, are forced to live in underground dwellings as basically cattle for rukh gathering. Mogamett, through his skewed reasoning, is even able to justify this as a mutually beneficial arrangement despite all of what we see and know is wrong about it. But, despite this, it's implied that Mogamett is deep down ashamed of this viewpoint, or at least regrets that things have to be this way in order for Magnostadt to be viable as an independent country for magicians. He outright admits that the happiest time of his life was in the past, when he was helping people, both goi and fellow magicians, with his magic, but he came to a point where he could not live that way anymore. In the end, I believe Mogamett died regretting the way a lot of things in his life turned out, but not creating Magnostadt itself, which he hopes can change and rebuild itself as a better place for both magicians and goi. I just felt that Mogamett was a well-rounded, interesting character through and through and certainly the best "bigoted" villain I've seen in anime/manga. He's honestly a lot of what made the Magnostadt arc great to me, actually.

And then there's Midora from Toriko. Though essentially the big bad of the series for the "Human World" portion of the story, he never made an appearance until towards the end of the Cooking Festival arc. But in 20 chapters, he showed more character and humanity than pretty much any villain in Naruto has ever. He did have a backstory, but it was only four chapters long, and unlike other backstories in stuff like Bleach what it reveals is genuinely revelatory in terms of how this character came to be and his behavior, but actually set up a major thing that would happen later in the arc proper. Not to mention the fight between Ichiryu and Midora is incredibly personal as it is brutal, and ultimately tragic, and it's clear in the final moments of it that both characters regret that things turned out this way...and Midora decides he doesn't want to end it this way, and though this act proves to be in vain, what he does for Ichiryu in the aftermath is honorable. Midora just feels fresh among the kind of cackling-asshole-ruthless-villains I've often seen, not only because of his sense of honor, but also his humanity and the respect he shows to other people. He left me wanting to see more of him, and though it'll be a long ass time before that happens (probably), the fact the character could leave such a strong impression in a short amount of time is commendable.

As an aside, I also like Starjun from Toriko. I don't think he's particularly complicated myself, but he acts like a genuine person with his own interests and desires outside of what Midora wants but it's still clear he is very loyal to him and his comrades. He has great character interactions with others and moments where you can even root for him even though he never does anything particularly "good" in the moral sense, and coupled with a badass personality it makes him a really cool character that I love seeing show up every now and again.

I'd love more villains like Midora and Mogamett rather than Madara and Ywach. Even though manga can be plenty fun without any complicated villains, like Seven Deadly Sins, I'd rather read stories about actual people, both good and bad, then just carboard cutouts of the same character types again and again.

On a side note, I don't think Shishio is a particularly complicated character. As in, in terms of his personality and actions I never felt he showed much humanity and mostly was single-minded in his goal or revolution. That said, what makes him interesting to me is that he's a direct contrast to Kenshin, a character that has remainded static as he clings to the past Edo era, while Kenshin is a symbol of the future, and has changed from his experiences and represents the change brought on by the Meji era, and that's what made Shishio and the final showdown really interesting to me. Symbolically, I love Shishio, but I feel as a character himself he's kind of shallow, though even then he has a strong enough personality on par with villains like Freeza and Dio to make him fun to watch.

As far as sports manga go, I'm just going to say I fucking hate Akashi. He might possibly my least favorite antagonist in manga ever, honestly, because he continually ruins my enjoyment of the series whenever he appears doing annoying, dumb stuff like trying to stab out Kagami eyes with scissors or making people kneel before him and babbling his inane "better than you" bullshit dialogue. The exception was the Teikou arc, which was before he adopted that personality, and then I guess the last two chapters now that he's switched to his other personality (which still doesn't make him a better character because the circumstances leading up to it lacked strong enough emotional tension to make it a rewarding development, imo). It was bad enough that the Seirin vs. Rakuzan match has been shockingly devoid of the raw tension and passion it really should have, but it was even worse when it was coupled with Akashi being a shallow asshole. The last few chapters have started to be a bit better, but overall this match is easily the worst in the entire series so far, imo.

My problem with Mogamett is that the way his hate for Goi was executed felt very jarring with the rest of his personality. Yes, I get the idea of it just fine, but it felt like two separate characters to me, rather than a flawed character. What I mean is that he was clearly kind-hearted and understanding and even patient with any magicians, even those who didn't agree with his view points. But then he's, for lack of a better word, over-the-top cartoonishly evil in his resentment of Goi, even going so far as to kick around a little girl. While the concept of his character is great, the execution kind of took me out of it  through I will say that he's still the closest to a 3-dimensional villain that I've seen from Magi, yet.

With Shishio, I do think there's a bit more to his character than just wanting to stick to the old ways. It's subtly implied, but while the character himself would never admit it, his hatred of the Meiji Era government is deeply personal as well. Think about it in the sense that he basically did all of their dirty work for them during the old era, but once they had no more use for him in the wake of the new era they outright betrayed him and ordered a hit on him, trying to execute him by burning him alive. When he mentions that par of his back-story in passing, I get the sense that he's (rightfully) really pissed off about just that, even if he also has his greater ambitions and ideals driving him. He also isn't 1-dimensionally evil like most other shounen villains. He's doing what he's doing because he genuinely believes that the old samurai way of life is the right way of life. Deluded as he may be, it's not like his ultimate goal is causing chaos just for the sake of it. He is very prideful of the era that he grew up in, and more than just being a symbolic contrast to Kenshin, he's utterly devoted to restoring Japan to what it once was, which in his eyes is a necessary thing. And even when not being looked at symbolically, he's still a classic villain in terms of charisma and personality, easily on par with Dio or Freeza or any number of classic shounen villains. It's true that he's not nearly as complex as any Togashi villains, but in could never even begin to compare him to the likes of the 1-dimensional turds that you get in 95% of modern shounen series.

Kubo and Kishimoto are responsible for a lot of this. Because they are so popular, most manga tend to emulate their bad guys. Oda suffered from this early on, with only Arlong and Baroque Works being decent villains and the rest being rather dull. But these are the most popular currently running series, so it would make sense, business-wise, to do it, but personally I want more characters like Enishi who are spurred on by misdirected anger and pure emotion or Sensui who are completely upside down yet completely logical about their ridiculous goals. You don't see either much anymore.

I mean, there are people who think Aizen was a legitimately good villain. His reveal was a surprise, but that doesn't make him inherently a good character. Not to mention most of his screen time amounted to either being cocky or "Oh you got me I'm deadno actually I'm right behind you." He never really did anything other than because he was the bad guy, so why not?

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Death Note or Bakuman. Now there's a team that know how to write characters. Characters like Light or Nanamine might not be deep, but I never tire of watching them figure out better ways to get ahead. They're actually entertaining to watch.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 02, 2014, 03:20:10 PM
Kubo and Kishimoto are responsible for a lot of this. Because they are so popular, most manga tend to emulate their bad guys. Oda suffered from this early on, with only Arlong and Baroque Works being decent villains and the rest being rather dull.

Alright, I'm going to have to kind of call you out on this, because unless you've a actually seen Enies Lobby and the Marineford arc, I can't accept that statement. But I will say that all of Oda's post time-skip villains suck balls. I definitely don't think that he took any influence from Kishimoto or Kubo though. In addition to OP starting before either of those series, his villains are also nothing like the pretentious convoluted drek that you find in those other 2 manga, even the worst of them (like Hodi).

QuoteBut these are the most popular currently running series, so it would make sense, business-wise, to do it, but personally I want more characters like Enishi who are spurred on by misdirected anger and pure emotion or Sensui who are completely upside down yet completely logical about their ridiculous goals. You don't see either much anymore.

Or they could start out 1-dimensional and develop into complex and even somewhat likable personals, such as Meruem from Hunter X Hunter (minus the pointless child butchering for cheap shock value).

QuoteI'm surprised nobody mentioned Death Note or Bakuman. Now there's a team that know how to write characters. Characters like Light or Nanamine might not be deep, but I never tire of watching them figure out better ways to get ahead. They're actually entertaining to watch.

Well, I kind of think Nanamine is an idiot, and I'm not sure if it was intentional on the part of Ohba to write him that way. But I do enjoy reading/watching Light. Oh, make no mistake, he's a completely shallow character, and is intentionally written that way, but it's entertaining to watch him think and get himself into insanely complex situations, and then proceed to make the disadvantages of those situations work in his favor through good scheming.

Stepping out of the realm of anime just for a bit, I wish more anime would do villains similar the the type you find in GOT. Most of them like Cersei, Tywin, Baelish, and so on are very morally gray. Yes, you have completely evil bastards like Joffrey, but he's really one of the few exceptions, and I like that even the other villains on his side are disgusted with him, personally (it's part of what makes Tywin so enticing for me, since he keeps Joffrey under control). That's another thing, in that the villains have such an interesting dynamic with each other which is another thing that many shounen manga lack. and yes, I know great Seinen manga like the stuff that Urasawa writes has those kinds of complex villains that I'm looking for, but I'm specifically talking about shounen, here.

Oh, and on the subject of Kishimoto, I can't stand the people who support his writing in the last several hundred chapters and think that his villains are legitimately great and complex. The only complex thing about them is how ridiculously inconsistent their writing is in terms of their personality (or lack thereof) and ideologies. These are by far the most pretentious characters that I have EVER come across in fiction. Seriously, this series need to die, soon. I've never said that about anything, before, but it's long overdue for it, and I think that Ben most of its sane fans would agree that ending it soon would be a mercy kill at this point.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on July 02, 2014, 03:35:27 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 02, 2014, 03:20:10 PM
Kubo and Kishimoto are responsible for a lot of this. Because they are so popular, most manga tend to emulate their bad guys. Oda suffered from this early on, with only Arlong and Baroque Works being decent villains and the rest being rather dull.

Alright, I'm going to have to kind of call you out on this, because unless you've a actually seen Enies Lobby and the Marineford arc, I can't accept that statement. But I will say that all of Oda's post time-skip villains suck balls. I definitely don't think that he took any influence from Kishimoto or Kubo though. In addition to OP starting before either of those series, his villains are also nothing like the pretentious convoluted drek that you find in those other 2 manga, even the worst of them (like Hodi).

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 02, 2014, 03:20:10 PMOda suffered from this early on, with only Arlong and Baroque Works being decent villains and the rest being rather dull.

:P

Of course he didn't copy Kubo or Kishimoto, I just said meant that he had similar problems at the start.

Nanamine IS an idiot, incapable of thinking ahead at all, that's why I thought he worked so well. The fact is that he was so invested in getting ahead of everyone else that he never stopped to try and just do it the right way. He was fun.

But, hey, not every villain can be Johan Leibert.

My bad. I missed that part. :humhumhum:

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on July 02, 2014, 03:18:42 PM
My problem with Mogamett is that the way his hate for Goi was executed felt very jarring with the rest of his personality. Yes, I get the idea of it just fine, but it felt like two separate characters to me, rather than a flawed character. What I mean is that he was clearly kind-hearted and understanding and even patient with any magicians, even those who didn't agree with his view points. But then he's, for lack of a better word, over-the-top cartoonishly evil in his resentment of Goi, even going so far as to kick around a little girl. While the concept of his character is great, the execution kind of took me out of it  through I will say that he's still the closest to a 3-dimensional villain that I've seen from Magi, yet.

He didn't kick that little girl, he just briskly shoved her off when she was clinging to him, in a fashion to like what I've seen a lot of uncaring people do to grabby begger children in India. There really wasn't any point I felt that his resentment of the goi was cartoonish in any way, myself. His treatment of them was out of his deluded reasoning molded from several bad experiences that made him see them as lesser beings. There are real life parallels to people who think and behave like Mogamett, and I thought, overall, he was a very balanced character.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on July 02, 2014, 03:18:42 PM
With Shishio, I do think there's a bit more to his character than just wanting to stick to the old ways. It's subtly implied, but while the character himself would never admit it, his hatred of the Meiji Era government is deeply personal as well. Think about it in the sense that he basically did all of their dirty work for them during the old era, but once they had no more use for him in the wake of the new era they outright betrayed him and ordered a hit on him, trying to execute him by burning him alive. When he mentions that par of his back-story in passing, I get the sense that he's (rightfully) really pissed off about just that, even if he also has his greater ambitions and ideals driving him. He also isn't 1-dimensionally evil like most other shounen villains. He's doing what he's doing because he genuinely believes that the old samurai way of life is the right way of life. Deluded as he may be, it's not like his ultimate goal is causing chaos just for the sake of it. He is very prideful of the era that he grew up in, and more than just being a symbolic contrast to Kenshin, he's utterly devoted to restoring Japan to what it once was, which in his eyes is a necessary thing. And even when not being looked at symbolically, he's still a classic villain in terms of charisma and personality, easily on par with Dio or Freeza or any number of classic shounen villains. It's true that he's not nearly as complex as any Togashi villains, but in could never even begin to compare him to the likes of the 1-dimensional turds that you get in 95% of modern shounen series.

Those are some good points, and perhaps it's just that, unlike other villains I'm fond of, Shishio never seemed to care about anything or anybody outside himself and his goal (I know he did love Yumi, but he didn't hesitate to sacrifice her nor mourn her much either), and focusing on that I overlooked other valuable elements of Shishio's personality.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 02, 2014, 03:20:10 PM
personally I want more characters like Enishi who are spurred on by misdirected anger and pure emotion or Sensui who are completely upside down yet completely logical about their ridiculous goals. You don't see either much anymore.

I actually think this can also describe Midora and Mogamett respectively.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 02, 2014, 03:20:10 PM
I mean, there are people who think Aizen was a legitimately good villain. His reveal was a surprise, but that doesn't make him inherently a good character. Not to mention most of his screen time amounted to either being cocky or "Oh you got me I'm deadno actually I'm right behind you." He never really did anything other than because he was the bad guy, so why not?

Not to mention Aizen's goal was never clearly defined nor was his motivation. He was always a flat character and all the twists he pulled in the series are essentially ret-cons to allow Kubo to do what he wants and forget something he previously established. Not to mention he loses because of the dumbest, not-set-up at all reasoning there ever was.

I'm going to have to second E-K that I always fond Nanamine kind of an idiot, and while I really enjoy his character in his first arc, his second one was one of the low-points in the series for me.

As far as Kishimoto goes, the story of the manga is completely irredeemable now thanks to the Kaguya twist and it's baffling that the two fucking villains that started this conflict are now accepted as good guys now and are on the heroes' side. The worst part is that all five major villains in this conflict (Obtio, Kabuto, Madara, Black Zetsu, and Kaguya) are terrible characters with nonsensical goals, cliche tragic backstory, or in the case of the latter two, completely lacking in personality or charisma. I think the series is worse than Bleach at this point, which is saying something.

Oh, and that reminds me of another thing, I hate it when villains reform because of bullshit reasons like "friendship" or because the main character beats him into accepting his reasoning or something, like as so often happens in Fairy Tail and Naruto. If a villain is going to change and become a better person, that should be through a natural character arc, like Vegeta or Sesshomaru's, and not some flip of the coin thing that happens just because they got beaten in a battle, like with Laxus or Obito.

I'm talking about that scene where Mogamett was about to use that device that summoned monsters made out of Black Rukh. A girl came up to him and he kicked her to the side and proclaimed his hatred for the Goi. Maybe it was different in the manga, but that's what I recall seeing in the anime.

As for Shisho, yes, he wasn't as caring as some other villains, but I do believe he had a level of respect for Kenshin, at least as his predecssor, and I do think that part of him genuinely wanted to convince Kenshin that his old ways were right, and that he should not have embraced the new era as he had. Don't forget that he also took in and personally trained Seita, even giving him the courage to stand up to his abusive caretakers (albeit by killing them all, but still, it was a terrible life for him), so at the very least I would never think of him as a self-centered villain, myself.

In regard to villains reforming into good guys, I always loved Piccolo's character arc with Gohan, which I find to be really underrated since nobody ever bothers to mention it. I liked it just as much as Vegeta's character arc, myself, and to me it never felt rushed or corny in its execution. It felt very genuine, and by the end of the Saiyan arc when Piccolo made his sacrifice, I could genuinely believe that he'd developed a fatherly sort of bond with Gohan, and Gohan looked up to him like both a mentor and a 2nd father figure. Hell, even TSF acknowledged in DBZTAS that Piccolo actually makes a better father-figure than Goku, even if it was just a parody.

Piccolo's character arc is one of my favorite parts of the series, actually, and his relationship with Gohan and his role as a mentor figure for him, and later Goten and Trunks in the Buu arc, as well as his growth as person, are pretty much why he's my favorite character in Dragon Ball.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on July 02, 2014, 04:38:45 PM
I'm talking about that scene where Mogamett was about to use that device that summoned monsters made out of Black Rukh. A girl came up to him and he kicked her to the side and proclaimed his hatred for the Goi. Maybe it was different in the manga, but that's what I recall seeing in the anime.

I just looked at that scene again, and I think context is important here. The war with Reim was going badly and Mogamett was infuriated and desperate at that point, and this got him to reflect on his past and his bad experiences again. Not only that, as he was walking through the Goi living areas, the people were hounding him about what he was going to do and how it was magicians' fault that this was happening and that magicians had a responsibility to protect and keep the goi happy. If you remember Mogamett and his fellow Magicians were horribly exploited in the past by goi rulers who saw them as nothing as disposable tools for their benefit. This mistreatment is a huge part of what made Mogamett resent and despise the Goi. So at this point, on top of being burdened by the war, furious at how many of his kin were lost in this battle, angry thinking about how he wanted to protect all people in this past with magic and how things have turned out now, and being insulted and pressured by Goi citizenry in a manner that brought up old wounds and seemed to reconfirm his long-held belief that the goi were selfish beings that would just abuse magicians if they were in charge, it was only natural he would break down under pressure and scream out his detest for the goi in a manner unbefitting of normally calm self. His reaction after that, when he sees the faces of the people he's just yelled at, he clearly feels ashamed at what he's just but thinking about this irritates him more.

He didn't kick that girl for some cartoonish reason. He was at an emotional breaking point brought on by stress and guilt, and his boiling, deep-rooted anger and self-loathing finally erupted in that particular moment.

Perhaps I'll re-watch the arc someday and see if I can look at Mogamett from a different viewpoint. At any rate it's not like I thought he was a bad villain to begin with. I was just pointing out a problem that I had with his character portrayal, but overall I still did think he was the best "villain" from Magi so far.

I also never gave much thought to who my favorite DB character is, but now that I think about it, I think I can agree with Piccolo consistently being the best. Even in the Cell and Buu sagas which were dominated by SSJ characters, he still proved to be useful in some way, and his relationship with the other characters, especially Gohan, always made for interesting dynamics.

Now that I really think about it, here are my top 5 favorite DB characters:

1. Piccolo
2. Krillin
3. Future Trunks
4. Tien
5. Vegeta

For as much as I didn't care for the Cell Saga, I must point out that I REALLY liked Future Trunks as a character, and his character arc in terms of learning who his father really was, and in a large way contributing to Vegeta's own character arc in terms of helping him develop.

Tien I like more from the DB anime, in particular, and while he didn't get a lot of screen-time later on, his character arc was one of the best  by far.

I still stand by what I said about Kubo and Kishimoto being better at writing sub-villains than main villains.  Characters like Grimmjow, Starrk, Nnoitra, Deidara, Hidan, Tobi etc. were always more memorable and entertaining than the likes of Aizen or Obito. The former always had at least some bit of charisma or badassery to them that made them legitimately cool villains, wheras the latter always seemed like they were trying too hard to make them seem powerful, smart, or evil.

Well, I thought the manga's version of the Magnostadt arc was better than the anime's, myself, which I think is actually a lot weaker in getting it's themes and point across. I can't say I think were too many significant differences, but in terms of execution, I thought that Ohtaka's artwork and compositions created a more powerful experience for me than the anime's direction and the (mis)use of it's OST.

And yeah, one thing I've always loved about Piccolo is that how he was useful throughout the story, and how great his dynamics with other characters were. My top Dragon Ball characters, personally, are:

1. Piccolo
2. Vegeta
3. Tenshinhan
4. Mr. Satan
5. Majin Buu (the good/fat one)

And of course I love characters like Krillin and Trunks as well. I'll also agree that Ten's character arc was better in the anime and easily one of the best improvements it made to the source material, though I like him just fine in the manga as well.

Quote from: Rynnec on July 02, 2014, 05:44:59 PM
I still stand by what I said about Kubo and Kishimoto being better at writing sub-villains than main villains.  Characters like Grimmjow, Starrk, Nnoitra, Deidara, Hidan, Tobi etc. were always more memorable and entertaining than the likes of Aizen or Obito. The former always had at least some bit of charisma or badassery to them that made them legitimately cool villains, wheras the latter always seemed like they were trying too hard to make them seem powerful, smart, or evil.

As far as Bleach goes, nowadays I think I can only enjoy Starrk and Barragan. But as for Naruto, I don't think there's a single villain in the series that I care for anymore, since ones I did once like (Zabuza, Pain, Orochimaru, Kabuto) eventually got ruined in some way for me as the story as the story progressed. Both Aizen and Obito are terrible mastermind-type characters and I agree that Kubo and Kishimoto tried way too hard with them. They make Zeref look like Johan in comparison.

As for favorite Dragonball characters:

1. Krillin
2. Vegeta
3. Future Trunks
4. Piccolo
5. Tien
6. Gohan
7. Kid Goku
8. Master Roshi
9. Android 16
10. Frieza

Not particularly the best, but my favorites.

Master Roshi is a really underrated character, honestly. He was an incredibly entertaining and interesting character in the pre-Z parts of Dragon Ball and I was always kind of disappointed that he basically was reduced to just comic relief for the anime after the Saiyan arc. He's still my favorite "old master" character in anime, alongside Genkai.

Genkai's my favorite. Heck, probably my favorite fictional female character.

-Majin Buu (manga) >>>>>>>>>>> Cell (any version)

-The Red Ribbon Army arc is the best Dragon Ball arc, by far, and it's my favorite comedy arc in a Shounen Jump Manga by far (and no, I still haven't read BoBo or Dr. Slump, yet, but for now, this is my favorite)

-Despite thinking that everything after the Female Titan arc of AoT is legitimate crap, I actually do enjoy it to some degree....as an unintentional comedy

-Sailor Moon Crystal has worse animation than the already heavily budgeted 90's anime, and the character designs are atrocious, IMO (I don't care if it's closer to the manga or not, it still looks ugly)

-GTO really should have never been allowed to continue after the original manga ended. Every sequel/spin-off that I've read has been an utter disgrace to everything that was great about it (and Bad Boys and Shounan Junai Gumi, as well)

-Not that I have anything against Space Dandy, which is fine, but as per usual, I actually think that Watanabe is better at drama than he is at humor, and right now Terror in Resonance is the better series of his, to me, or at least it's more up my alley, much like Kids on the Slope was

-Kuroko no Basket is fun until a later point in the series, but I never got why it was so highly praised, and quite frankly I think that the people who praise it haven't read or watched any classics ports manga or anime; Slam Dunk, Ashita no Joe, Hajime no Ippo, etc. Take your pick, but I think that those are all better, even if to varying degrees. Like I said, I still like it overall as a series, for the most part, but even at its best, I wouldn't ever call it great, but it's still leagues better than some shounen sports series, like....

-Ace of Diamond is the most boring shounen sports series that I've seen yet, and it features the most boring sport ever invented; why do people like this?

-Baby Steps is very formulaic, and I don't get why people pretend like it's not and that it's something really special in the genre. I had half of an argument with a guy in TZ about this before realizing that I was wasting my time by even acknowledging this series so much. It's a mediocre sports series from what I've seen. There's nothing wrong with that, but apparently it has a huge fan-base that insists that it's one of the best

- I love Space Dandy's experimental nature, and how every episode tries something new, whether exploring different genres or using a different artistic/animation style. However, I have to admit that while I appreciate that aspect of it sometimes it becomes a bit too abstract, and not very entertaining for me. Still, there's nothing like it out there, and I appreciate it as a true celebration of animation and creativity.

- I'm enjoying Terror in Resonance, but it's not one of my absolute favorite things to come from Watannabe, unlike some other people. I actually do prefer Space Dandy, who's highs have endeared and entertained me more than Terror has so far in it's run.

- Sailor Moon Crystal's animation is even crappier than the originals, especially since the designs lack, well, "personality," which can make even limited drawings in animation passable because enough emotion is getting across through the scene from the characters' poses, behavior, etc, coupled with good direction, storyboarding, and such. Crystal's designs, in contrast, and bland and boring, and everything else is by-the-numbers as well, so watching it is a lot less fun, even if it lacks the annoying filler of the original.

- Though I never was and still am not an Attack on Titan fan, I do think the last 6 or so chapters have been legitimately well-done and entertaining, and I am willing to give Isayama can turn the quality of the series around into something consistently enjoyable again like it was until the Female Titan arc.

- My favorite arc in Dragon Ball is the Namek arc...the manga's version, of course. I also don't have a problem with the manga's version of the battle with Freeza either. It might be the longest fight in the series, but I still find it incredibly engrossing beginning to end.

- I don't hate Kuroko's Basketball, and I was enjoying it a lot until after the rematch with To'oh, but it's far from one of the best sports manga out there, far from one of the best manga currently running in Jump, and the Rakuzan match is fucking terrible and Akaishi is one of the worst antagonists in anything that I've ever seen. So...I think it's a decent series overall, just not quite as good as it's fans claim it to be.

- I have not read Steel Ball run yet, but among the shonen JoJo arcs, I think Stone Ocean is easily the best of them. I say that as a huge fan of the entirety of JoJo's, while knowing that Stardust Crusaders is the most popular internationally, while Battle Tendency has grown more popular lately because of the 2012 anime, and Diamond is Unbreakable is generally the underrated favorite among fans.

- Likewise, I enjoy Vento Aureo quite a bit, just as much as Stardust Crusaders and more than Battle Tendency, honestly. While there are some issues with it, and Giorno is not one of the best JoJo leads, Buccellati's character arc is incredible, the rest of the supporting cast is well-utilized and characterized (besides Fugo, who leaves anyway), and the plot is tighter and more interesting than Stardust Crusader's stand-of-the-week format, even if it doesn't reach the highs that arc had once the group finally arrived in Egypt. Overall, I still think it's a solid arc, and I enjoyed it much more than Vlord and some other JoJo's fans lead me to believe.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on August 26, 2014, 07:45:56 PM

-The Red Ribbon Army arc is the best Dragon Ball arc, by far, and it's my favorite com did arc in a Shounen Jump Manga by far (and no, I still haven't read BoBo or Dr. Slump, yet, but for now, this is my favorite)

Heh, much like Urusei Yatsura, Dr. Slump's storylines are normally at most only 5-6 chapters (and even those are infrequent), with only one particularly long arc taking place at the end of the series. :P As far as "comedy arcs" go, I would also say that Red Ribbon is my favorite in any Jump manga as well. I love Bobobo, but the arcs are formulaic structure-wise (though this is intentional on Sawaii's part), with the real entertainment not coming from the story but the subversions of typical tropes and the spontaneous, off-kelter humor. Essentially, the "plot" isn't that important and mainly serves as a vehicle for the humor of the series, which is appropriate since it is a parody of battle shonens (specifically 80's battle-shonens), and not one itself. The only arc in Bobobo that I love on a character development/plot level is the Captain Battleship arc, which is one of my favorite arcs in any anime/manga, but Red Ribbon is still much stronger overall.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on August 26, 2014, 07:45:56 PM

-Ace of Diamond is the most boring shounen sports series that I've seen yet,many it features the most boring sport ever invented

Read a Mitsuru Adachi manga. Specifically, read Cross Game, which I read recently and ended up becoming one of my favorite manga. I've never been much into baseball either, but Adachi was able to make the games tense and exciting, but more importantly, he writes an incredibly well-written character-driven story that takes itself maturely with character interactions and relationships that feel realistic and natural, in a way that is completely atypical of what you'd expect from shonen manga. Even though I don't know muchabout baseball and don't generally care for it, I was completely sucked into the story, and honestly, the sports aspect takes a backseat to the character-driven story, much like in REAL, though also like in REAL, the sport is what brings the characters together and shapes their motivations and lives in a meaningful way. Even if you really don't like baseball, I still think you'd enjoy it a fair bit.

-I don't really care much about Sailor Moon. Like, at all.

-13 episodes in and AoT isn't really the great anime everyone says it is.

-Akame ga Kill is tryhard edgy trash with nothing else to distinguish it from piles of other shounenshit

-The first episode of Terror in Resonance to really wow me or make me particularly interested in the show

A friend of mine swears by Major when it comes to baseball anime, though he likes sports manga/anime slightly more than I do so I haven't seen it yet.

-I actually liked the old Sailor Moon anime better than the manga. There. I said it. Filler aside, every change was for the better except for the lack of a definite ending. She has a lot more in common with Togashi than just being married to him.

-GTO needs to have a new series, and I don't mean spin-off. It needs a SJG > GTO transition showing one of the old characters in a new transition in life. Enough with milking the popularity of GTO, it's time to move on.

-Space Dandy is not very interesting to me. Yes, Watanabe, okay. So what? That doesn't make it instantly great.

-I like Bakuman better than Death Note and I really like Death Note.

Terror isn't one of my favorites either (KOTS is, though), but my point was that I prefer it to Dandy. With the latter, I've had no immediate desire to re-watch any episodes yet. With Terror, I admittedly re-watch some episodes just to catch every little detail of the plot, which I wouldn't do if it didn't interest me, obviously.

I've heard of Cross Game. It's on a long list of manga that I will eventually get to. I still need to continue with JoJo and eventually read Vinland Saga. In addition to that I still need to play catch-up with quite a few manga, and considering that I haven't read much if anything at all in the past couple of months since I was preparing for my licensure board exams, I should get ample time to marathon a bunch of stuff once it's all over.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on August 26, 2014, 09:48:52 PM
-I like Bakuman better than Death Note and I really like Death Note.

Huh, since when? I know that you were a Bakuman fan since day one, but I thought you were only casually a DN fan at best.

As for Space Dandy, I'm with CartoonX. The show is worth watching to me based on its experimental nature alone, but based on that, I have to say that I could take or leave about half of the show's run.

Quote from: Avaitor on August 26, 2014, 09:57:52 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on August 26, 2014, 09:48:52 PM
-I like Bakuman better than Death Note and I really like Death Note.

Huh, since when? I know that you were a Bakuman fan since day one, but I thought you were only casually a DN fan at best.

Death Note shifted for me after I re-watched it detached from the hype. It was one of those series I went in expecting a lot more than was being offered, but after watching it for what it is I really like it. Now I'm a fan.

But I still like Bakuman better.  :)

I like both. Now give me a new manga already, Ohba!

I like the Sailor Moon manga, but have never been able to get into the anime, and am only watching Crystal because it won't have any shitty filler. But even in the manga, I think it's still a fairly typical, formulaic series, and while enjoyable overall, I do think it's pretty overrated.

And Attack on Titan is quite overrated as well. It might take itself very seriously and have some dark elements, but it doesn't handle them very well and several scenes are so over the top that they come across as unintentionally funny. My feelings towards it are kind of like my feelings towards Korra, in that I don't hate it, don't love it, and am generally just "eh" on the series overall.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on August 26, 2014, 09:48:52 PM

-I like Bakuman better than Death Note and I really like Death Note.

Ditto.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on August 26, 2014, 09:55:50 PM
Terror isn't one of my favorites either (KOTS is, though), but my point was that I prefer it to Dandy. With the latter, I've had no immediate desire to re-watch any episodes yet. With Terror, I admittedly re-watch some episodes just to catch every little detail of the plot, which I wouldn't do if it didn't interest me, obviously.

That's understandable. But likewise, for me, Dandy has had several episodes that I get an urge to rewatch the day after I see them, but I don't feel like rewatching any TiR episodes so far, and don't imagine myself ever re-visiting the series. I enjoy it fine, but Dandy has just endeared itself to me much more, and I suppose that's just a matter of taste, since I've always been a comedy over drama guy.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on August 26, 2014, 09:48:52 PMSpace Dandy is not very interesting to me. Yes, Watanabe, okay. So what? That doesn't make it instantly great.

Take Space Dandy, replace it with Samurai Champloo, and leave the rest of the phrase untouched, and that's me when it comes to Watanabe series.

Also, while we're at it:

1. Kids on the Slope
2. Cowboy Bebop
3. Terror in Resonance
4. Space Dandy
5. Samurai Champloo

Well, on the note of Dandy and experimental comedies, I still stand by my much earlier opinion: I like Level E better (and that's my least favorite Togashi series, at that).

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on August 26, 2014, 10:07:36 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on August 26, 2014, 09:48:52 PMSpace Dandy is not very interesting to me. Yes, Watanabe, okay. So what? That doesn't make it instantly great.

Take Space Dandy, replace it with Samurai Champloo, and leave the rest of the phrase untouched, and that's me when it comes to Watanabe series.

Also, while we're at it:

1. Kids on the Slope
2. Cowboy Bebop
3. Terror in Resonance
4. Space Dandy
5. Samurai Champloo

I agree with both.

Samurai Champloo has to be the most popular anime I've wanted to like but left me cold in every single way except animation and music.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on August 26, 2014, 10:10:09 PM
Well, on the note of Dandy and experimental comedies, I still stand by my much earlier opinion: I like Level E better (and that's my least favorite Togashi series, at that).

Yeah, I'd agree Level E's definitely more consistent than Dandy is, even if I like Dandy's best episodes more than it's. I'll also say that Prince Baka and Captain Kraft are far more interesting characters than any of the SD cast, who I like quite fine, but don't find particularly "endearing" to me like those two.

Seriously, I could watch an entire show just based on the chemistry between those 2 characters.

I can see it now: Yoshihiro Togashi Presents, "Baka & Kraft"

I should get into Terror, and watch more of KOTS beyond the first 2 episodes.

It's not an unpopular opinion to dislike Space Dandy or prefer Terror In Resonance to it. TIR is one of the year's most popular shows among western anime fans, while very few outside of Toonami diehards seem to acknowledge SD at all.

That said, Space Dandy is amazing, probably the best anime of the year for me. Calling it an experimental comedy is doing it a disservice IMO, as about a third of the existing episodes are definitely not humor-focused at all. It's always experimental, and it's usually a comedy, but it's definitely not an experimental comedy. Also, Watanabe's involvement in it seems to just be giving his industry friends a chance to do whatever the hell they want, producing the music, and writing a couple of episodes. You can't compare it to his other works, because from what I can tell it isn't really "his work." It's an ensemble piece made by an eclectic group of creators - newcomers and some of the industry's finest alike. That's why it isn't very consistent... because it's an anthology at heart.

I can see why you guys wouldn't like it, but I love Space Dandy even more than I loved Kill la Kill last year. It represents everything I love about animation, music, and science-fiction. Personally, the only episode I disliked was the undies vs. vests one. Every single other installment has tons of re-watch value for me.

Quote from: Foggle on August 26, 2014, 11:41:11 PMIt's not an unpopular opinion to dislike Space Dandy or prefer Terror In Resonance to it. TIR is one of the year's most popular shows among western anime fans, while very few outside of Toonami diehards seem to acknowledge SD at all.

I wasn't aware that TIR was popular, actually. I don't go on other boards, so I don't know if people talk about it that much.

QuoteThat said, Space Dandy is amazing, probably the best anime of the year for me. Calling it an experimental comedy is doing it a disservice IMO, as about a third of the existing episodes are definitely not humor-focused at all. It's always experimental, and it's usually a comedy, but it's definitely not an experimental comedy. Also, Watanabe's involvement in it seems to just be giving his industry friends a chance to do whatever the hell they want, producing the music, and writing a couple of episodes. You can't compare it to his other works, because from what I can tell it isn't really "his work." It's an ensemble piece made by an eclectic group of creators - newcomers and some of the industry's finest alike. That's why it isn't very consistent... because it's an anthology at heart.

I'm fine with it being an anthology, myself. Level E was also an anthology series, and I really enjoyed it. It's just that even an anthology can still be called out for inconsistent quality with its episodes.

QuoteI can see why you guys wouldn't like it, but I love Space Dandy even more than I loved Kill la Kill last year. It represents everything I love about animation, music, and science-fiction. Personally, the only episode I disliked was the undies vs. vests one. Every single other installment has tons of re-watch value for me.

For the record, Desensitized is the only one who claimed to not like it. I already stated that I do like the show, but just don't love it, and my unpopular opinion (at least as far as this board goes) was that TIR is more up my alley. I still think that SD is fun for the most part, though.

It's not my least favorite Watanabe show, for what it's worth.

Quote from: Foggle on August 26, 2014, 11:41:11 PM

That said, Space Dandy is amazing, probably the best anime of the year for me. Calling it an experimental comedy is doing it a disservice IMO, as about a third of the existing episodes are definitely not humor-focused at all. It's always experimental, and it's usually a comedy, but it's definitely not an experimental comedy. Also, Watanabe's involvement in it seems to just be giving his industry friends a chance to do whatever the hell they want, producing the music, and writing a couple of episodes. You can't compare it to his other works, because from what I can tell it isn't really "his work." It's an ensemble piece made by an eclectic group of creators - newcomers and some of the industry's finest alike. That's why it isn't very consistent... because it's an anthology at heart.

I can see why you guys wouldn't like it, but I love Space Dandy even more than I loved Kill la Kill last year. It represents everything I love about animation, music, and science-fiction. Personally, the only episode I disliked was the undies vs. vests one. Every single other installment has tons of re-watch value for me.

I really do find the show great for all of those aspects. However, I do think that the episodes that I tend to enjoy most from it do mainly happen to be the comedy focused ones, though. Other ones, like last week's for instance, often tend to be interesting watches for me, but my overall enjoyment of them is mixed, and I don't really get much out of rewatching them. I think it's an excellent series in concept and execution, and there's nothing quite like it I've ever seen, but some of it's episodes just miss the mark for me. So I just can't say I totally love the series. But even so, I am a fan of it, and the series as a whole will certainly be something I'll find myself coming back to now and again once it ends. And I'll also be sad to see it go, because it's always interesting and creative, and I look forward to watching every new episode and seeing what kind of style or story they'll try out, which makes it a really fun watching experience for me, even if I can't dig an episode now and again. It really is a kind of a lightning-in-a-bottle series that I doubt we'll ever see replicated, and like KLK, is some of the most fun I've had watching an anime in a good while, which is something I really appreciate.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on August 27, 2014, 12:01:35 AM
I wasn't aware that TIR was popular, actually. I don't go on other boards, so I don't know if people talk about it that much.

Well, it's not popular in terms of sales or anything... it's bombing hard on the Japanese charts, because no one there watches Watanabe shows for some reason.

QuoteI'm fine with it being an anthology, myself. Level E was also an anthology series, and I really enjoyed it. It's just that even an anthology can still be called out for inconsistent quality with its episodes.

I still need to watch more than a few episodes of Level E. Personally, I don't think the quality of Space Dandy is inconsistent, I think it's more that the execution, writing style, and tone are, which means that - as a whole - it will only appeal to a niche group of people. Personally, I've always been a fan of fiction that plays with the audience's expectations and lacks consistency in events; my favorite works generally jump from irreverent comedy to sobering drama and back again. And I don't mean like how most comedic films have a couple of serious scenes, I'm talking about stuff like The World's End, Cemetery Man, and Drakengard 3, which many have criticized as "not knowing what they want to be" or "trying to have their cake and eat it too." Space Dandy appeals to me because I feel that (nearly) every episode succeeds greatly in what it sets out to do, and I actually relish its lack of consistency. I'm weird.

QuoteFor the record, Desensitized is the only one who claimed to not like it. I already stated that I do like the show, but just don't love it, and my unpopular opinion (at least as far as this board goes) was that TIR is more up my alley. I still think that SD is fun for the most part, though.

TIR is an excellent show, and I can see why Desen doesn't like Space Dandy. Just trying to give my 2 cents. Not bashing on anyone's tastes. ;D

Quote from: Cartoon X on August 27, 2014, 12:10:52 AM
I really do find the show great for all of those aspects. However, I do think that the episodes that I tend to enjoy most from it do mainly happen to be the comedy focused ones, though. Other ones, like last week's for instance, often tend to be interesting watches for me, but my overall enjoyment of them is mixed, and I don't really get much out of rewatching them. I think it's an excellent series in concept and execution, and there's nothing quite like it I've ever seen, but some of it's episodes just miss the mark for me. So I just can't say I totally love the series. But even so, I am a fan of it, and the series as a whole will certainly be something I'll find myself coming back to now and again once it ends. And I'll also be sad to see it go, because it's always interesting and creative, and I look forward to watching every new episode and seeing what kind of style or story they'll try out, which makes it a really fun watching experience for me, even if I can't dig an episode now and again. It really is a kind of a lightning-in-a-bottle series that I doubt we'll ever see replicated, and like KLK, is some of the most fun I've had watching an anime in a good while, which is something I really appreciate.

I actually like the weirder ones the most, myself, but episodes 3, 4, 12, 14, 17, and 20 are among the funniest pieces of anime I've ever seen. :joy:

Quote from: Foggle on August 27, 2014, 12:20:50 AM
I actually like the weirder ones the most, myself, but episodes 3, 4, 12, 14, 17, and 20 are among the funniest pieces of anime I've ever seen. :joy:

Agreed.   :thumbup:

Quote from: Foggle on August 27, 2014, 12:20:50 AM

QuoteI'm fine with it being an anthology, myself. Level E was also an anthology series, and I really enjoyed it. It's just that even an anthology can still be called out for inconsistent quality with its episodes.

I still need to watch more than a few episodes of Level E. Personally, I don't think the quality of Space Dandy is inconsistent, I think it's more that the execution, writing style, and tone are, which means that - as a whole - it will only appeal to a niche group of people. Personally, I've always been a fan of fiction that plays with the audience's expectations and lacks consistency in events; my favorite works generally jump from irreverent comedy to sobering drama and back again. And I don't mean like how most comedic films have a couple of serious scenes, I'm talking about stuff like The World's End, Cemetery Man, and Drakengard 3, which many have criticized as "not knowing what they want to be" or "trying to have their cake and eat it too." Space Dandy appeals to me because I feel that (nearly) every episode succeeds greatly in what it sets out to do, and I actually relish its lack of consistency. I'm weird.

Have you still never seen this yet?

(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flaughingsquid.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Famerican-werewolf-20110925-102252.jpg&hash=271184cd5624debef0dbb687db10cad2dc05b07f)

If not, you really should.

Urgh, I still haven't... let me get on that this weekend. :D

Best horror comedy ever. Also, get to watching Return of the Living dead as well, if you haven't seen it yet.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on August 27, 2014, 12:29:53 AM
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flaughingsquid.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Famerican-werewolf-20110925-102252.jpg&hash=271184cd5624debef0dbb687db10cad2dc05b07f)

Man, that reminds me that the Halloween season is on its way (in my book, that means September through the very end of October). Can't wait to watch those movies.

I can appreciate Space Dandy's animation, but the humor just doesn't do much for me. I did catch the last episode though (or the episode before that? The rockstar one.) and god dayum did they show a lot more of that blonde chick than I thought they would. Kind of caught me off guard.  :drool:

i just remember loving the song at the end.

As I mentioned before, I watched Barefoot Gen yesterday. Apparently most people find it a hard movie to sit through. As for me... I was definitely sad at certain parts, and it's sobering to see the many graphic, horrific consequences of one of mankind's worst creations and events in human history, but there was never a point where it was too much for me. In fact, I had the urge to rewatch the movie immediately after finishing it, and take everything all in again. It's not like I'm desensitized to graphic violence/imagery and stuff, since I can get rather squeamish at body horror and imagery pretty easily. If the movie was in live-action, it might have been a more uncomfortable experience for me, but having seen it I can't say I found it as soul-crushing and hard to watch as most.

Also, having watched Grave of the Fireflies yesterday as well, between the two, I personally enjoyed Barefoot Gen a little bit more. I think they are both excellent movies, mind you, but BG, while less subtle in handling it's subject matter, conveys a more personal, palpable sense of humanity for me through the balance of it's humor and bleakness, despair and hope, whereas, though I found them and their story interesting, I wasn't quite as invested in the characters of GotF on an emotional level. However, I will admit GotF is technically superior to BG with much greater directing and a more polished story behind it. Either way, though, I think both are fascinating films with their own strengths and weaknesses, and around equal in quality and enjoyment.

A lot of these are mostly manga-related, but I've thought of a couple more I've had recently....

- In general I prefer manga to anime.

- Yamada-kun and the Seven Witches is the best shonen manga comedy currently-running and the best manga currently-running title Crunchyroll's manga service has to offer to boot.

- The twist in Fuuka was handled well and the story has been solid since then and continues to be an engaging read.

- The Seven Deadly Sins' new arc is shaping up pretty interestingly, a few small parts like the power levels thing aside.

- One Piece is still fine for the most part, but it no longer produces the most consistently good content in Jump on a week to week basis. That honor probably goes to Shokugeki no Soma, though I favor Assassination Classroom more and it's the Jump series I look the most forward to reading these days.

- Enrico Pucci is the best main antagonist in JoJo's.

- Jolyne Joestar is the best JoJo.

- Vento Aureo > Stardust Crusaders.

- This isn't really an unpopular opinion more so a "very few people have actually read the source material" kind of thing, but the Barefoot Gen manga is much superior to the film and far more powerful in it's execution.

- The Akira manga is also superior to the film.

- Ditto for the Nausicaa manga.

- ....Actually, most manga are better than their anime adaptions so never mind.

-  I prefer the Revenge arc over the Kyoto arc in Rurouni Kenshin.

- FMP! Fumoffu is solid, but not something I'd consider among "one of the funniest anime ever," as I've seen some people call it.

- The "farmville" arcs in both Vagabond and Vinland Saga are excellent and in fact the best arc in the latter so far.

- REAL is Takehiko Inoue's best work.

- Buddha is Osamu Tezuka's best work.

- Silver Spoon is Hiromu Arakawa's best work.

- Lum the Forever is the second best Urusei Yatsura movie after Beautiful Dreamer.

- Always My Darling is honestly a pretty good and really funny 10th anniversary special, terrible misrepresentations of Lum and Ataru's characterizations aside.

- The endings for UY and Ranma 1/2 are absolutely perfect for their respective series.

- The Wind Rises is by far my favorite of Miyazaki's/Studio Ghibli's films.

- My favorite version of "Smile Bomb" is the one used for the Three Kings arc.

- Toonami losing three hours isn't great, but I hardly see a reason to fuss about it. They were only using those slots for reruns anyway.

- Toonami's current lineup isn't really any better or worse than it was in it's supposed glory days. It's always been a mixed bag shows-wise and the current lineup is no different. The packaging/bumps, however, I think are pretty exceptional and as far as that goes I think they're better than ever.

That's all I can think of for now that isn't "this series is overrated/underrated" or "this is better than this" and whatever.

Quote from: Cartoon X on February 05, 2015, 11:44:11 PM-  I prefer the Revenge arc over the Kyoto arc in Rurouni Kenshin.

You're not alone. The Kyoto arc is 10/10 material, but the Revenge arc is massively underrated probably due to the fact it wasn't animated. If only they would give Kenshin a new anime without all the filler and having the manga's ending, I think the arc would get more respect. As it is, it's excellent.

Quote from: Cartoon X on February 05, 2015, 11:44:11 PM- The endings for UY and Ranma 1/2 are absolutely perfect for their respective series.

What about MI?

Quote from: Cartoon X on February 05, 2015, 11:44:11 PM- My favorite version of "Smile Bomb" is the one used for the Three Kings arc.

The second and third openings I've always liked better than the first. It just encapsulates more of what makes the show great.

-I find the Remembrance arc to be the single greatest part of Rurouni Kenshin. As for Revenge and Kyoto, I love both, but Kyoto had a much better climax. You can't really argue that point considering that Watsuki literally just threw in an extra set if minions out of nowhere to give the other characters some lackluster final fights which did absolutely nothing for their character arcs or tge story. It was just filler. Kenshin's physical and thematic second battle with Enishi was all that we needed in the first place.

-School Rumble just didn't do anything for me. It was amusing, but never really made me laugh or care about the characters. I feel the same about Amagi Brilliant Park and Space Dandy, really. I just don't get what's so funny about them.

-Magi, to be perfectly honest, was never really great outside of the Magnostadt arc. It takes the easy way out of too many situations, and when it cones to tge political aspects, it's usually ever black and white (except for, once again, the Magnostadt arc), and ASOIAF has really spoiled me when it comes to politics and character development in fantasy stories.

-I've been bored of One Piece for years, now. The great arcs are still great, but the latest stuff is mostly just a drag.

-I'm already bored of My Hero Academy. It's a generic battle shonen now. That....really didn't take long.

-I've been bored of modern battle shonen for quite a while now.

-Despite my faults with its lack of dramatic tension, as a historical manga I found Chenggis Khan to be a very interesting read and would like to read more purely historical manga in the future.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on February 06, 2015, 12:04:58 AM-I've been bored of modern battle shonen for quite a while now.

I find it harder for me to get into modern battle shonen because they all follow the same formula of one on one fights, tournaments (or tournaments disguised as plots), training arcs, and power up after power up. The same dumb hero, the same angsty rival, the same useless token girl character, and the same bland enemy that is basically Aizen.

Whatever happened to battles coming because of turns in the plot like Yu Yu Hakusho, Trigun, or Rurouni Kenshin?

Most modern battle shonen are just one of two things:

-Interesting worlds with great concepts yet hardly do anything interesting with them and/or don't have interesting enough characters to support them and give you sonething to get really invested in (Magi, My Hero Academy, World Trigger, etc.)

-Generic safe crap that gets just enough ratings to keep it running and getting the mangaka a steady weekly paycheck

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on February 05, 2015, 11:53:44 PM

Quote from: Cartoon X on February 05, 2015, 11:44:11 PM- The endings for UY and Ranma 1/2 are absolutely perfect for their respective series.

What about MI?

It's not really an unpopular opinion to love the ending for MI.  ;) FTR, it's actually my favorite ending in any anime/manga period.

Although, to be fair, most of the really dedicated Urusei Yatsura fans do appreciate the ending of that series well and love it tons. I've just seen a lot of people not really the the subtlety behind the final words spoken in the series and just take them at surface value, which is completely missing the point. In Japan it's actually considered one of THE most iconic and important moments in the entire series, so it's certainly not unpopular to love it there.

As far as the Ranma ending goes, for some reason people seem to completely miss how it was essentially an intentional troll ending. Takahashi basically shows hints of how the characters eventually will eventually end up in the future, but then reveals that for the moment things will still go on as normal. Considering Ranma never took any of it's romantic subplots seriously and always was a slapstick comedy of errors, that ending suits it much more than a "everyone gets paired up and lives happily ever after" kind of deal would.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on February 05, 2015, 11:53:44 PM

Quote from: Cartoon X on February 05, 2015, 11:44:11 PM- My favorite version of "Smile Bomb" is the one used for the Three Kings arc.

The second and third openings I've always liked better than the first. It just encapsulates more of what makes the show great.

I agree.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on February 06, 2015, 12:04:58 AM
-I find the Remembrance arc to be the single greatest part of Rurouni Kenshin. As for Revenge and Kyoto, I love both, but Kyoto had a much better climax. You can't really argue that point considering that Watsuki literally just threw in an extra set if minions out of nowhere to give the other characters some lackluster final fights which did absolutely nothing for their character arcs or tge story. It was just filler. Kenshin's physical and thematic second battle with Enishi was all that we needed in the first place.

I didn't really mind those Shu-shin battles, myself, and they didn't significantly weaken the flow of the arc or the impact of the Kenshin v. Enishi fight for me either.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on February 06, 2015, 12:04:58 AM

-School Rumble just didn't do anything for me. It was amusing, but never really made me laugh or care about the characters. I feel the same about Amagi Brilliant Park and Space Dandy, really. I just don't get what's so funny about them.

-I'm already bored of My Hero Academy. It's a generic battle shonen now. That....really didn't take long.

I disagree.  :>

Well, actually I do agree with you on Amagi, since I never found it laugh out loud hilarious or as endearing/great as others here did even by the end. It's solid, but the humor wasn't particularly anything I haven't seen done better elsewhere.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on February 06, 2015, 12:04:58 AM
-I've been bored of modern battle shonen for quite a while now.

I consider battle-shonen the most overrated genre in all of anime/manga.

Though I seem to appreciate some currently running titles more than you do, for whatever reason.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on February 06, 2015, 12:21:56 AM
-Interesting worlds with great concepts yet hardly do anything interesting with them and/or don't have interesting enough characters to support them and give you sonething to get really invested in (Magi, My Hero Academy, World Trigger, etc.)

I honestly think those series are perfectly "interesting" and have good characters and good storylines. I can't say I find any of those series are at fault of those criticisms. I respect that they just don't appeal to you on a character or story level, for the reasons you've given. But to claim they are exemplary of the poor state of the battle-shonen genre, though, is something I don't really "get," because from purely an objective standpoint, I'd call them pretty well-done overall.

there's nothing wrong with toonami having reruns seeing as that's the only time the shows get rerunned for the entire week. toonami losing 3 hours is terrible.

I think the doctor is looking for the same thing as me. He's not looking for a battle manga, he's looking for a manga that just happens to have battles as conflicts in the story which arise because of how the plot is structured. A battle manga essentially exists only to show off powers and explosions, not story or character development.

In that aspect Bakuman is closer to what we want than Hitman Reborn.

i am just looking for battle manga.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on February 06, 2015, 01:15:27 AM
I think the doctor is looking for the same thing as me. He's not looking for a battle manga, he's looking for a manga that just happens to have battles as conflicts in the story which arise because of how the plot is structured. A battle manga essentially exists only to show off powers and explosions, not story or character development.

In that aspect Bakuman is closer to what we want than Hitman Reborn.

I agree. I've never cared for pure "fighting series" myself. That's the entire reason why I didn't watch any action cartoons until for the longest time as a kid. Fighting for fighting's sake and mindless action does not and has never appealed to me.

As far as the series E-K has mentioned, though, I would call Magi, My Hero Academia, and World Trigger very character and story-driven series that are as how you've described, and not just battle-oriented series. Unlike, say, Bleach or Naruto, where I feel you can remove most of the fights and lose nothing of value, I would say the most of the fights demonstrated in those series so far have been purposeful and effective in progressing the story instead of just being there for the sake of it. Those series also have had consistent and well-done character and story development. I wouldn't say they've been exceptional and strongly endearing to me to a level where I'd consider them anywhere near favorite-level, but they've been well-written and well-done enough to make me appreciate and enjoy them. And both WT and MHA have had a very strong emphasis on team-based and strategic battles, which I find sets them apart from other contemporaries in the genre. I don't think these series are at fault at being "generic battle-shonen manga" so much as not appealing to the good doctor strongly on a character or story level, which is perfectly fine, but something I can't consider as valid criticisms of those series on any objective level myself.

Quote from: Cartoon X on February 06, 2015, 01:28:01 AM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on February 06, 2015, 01:15:27 AM
I think the doctor is looking for the same thing as me. He's not looking for a battle manga, he's looking for a manga that just happens to have battles as conflicts in the story which arise because of how the plot is structured. A battle manga essentially exists only to show off powers and explosions, not story or character development.

In that aspect Bakuman is closer to what we want than Hitman Reborn.

I agree. I've never cared for "fighting series" myself. That's the entire reason why I didn't watch any action cartoons until I was ten. Fighting for fighting's sake and mindless action does not appeal to me.

As far as the series E-K has mentioned, though, I would call Magi, My Hero Academia, and World Trigger very character and story-driven series that are as how you've described, and not just battle-oriented series. Unlike, say, Bleach or Naruto, where I feel you can remove most of the fights and lose nothing of value, I would say the most of the fights demonstrated in those series so far have been purposeful and effective in progressing the story instead of just being there for the sake of it. Those series also have had consistent and well-done character and story development. I wouldn't say they've been exceptional and strongly endearing to me to a level where I'd consider them anywhere near favorite-level, but they've done enough to make me a "fan" of them. And both WT and MHA have had a very strong emphasis on team-based and strategic battles, which I find sets them apart from other contemporaries in the genre. I don't think these series are at fault at being "generic battle manga" so much as not appealing to the good doctor strongly on a character or story level, which is perfectly fine, but I simply can't accept as valid criticisms of those series on any objective level myself.

Well, I'm not as picky as the good doctor is, so I'm willing to give those series a chance should I have the time to delve into them. Magi has been on my list for awhile and I think it's on Netflix so I might just give it a go.

I think a lot of the problems came from Dragon Ball's popularity. Some people saw the Frieza battle and wanted to see it over and over again, other people saw the rest of the Namek saga (and everything leading up to it) and took inspiration from that instead. It's why I like Chapter Black so much (as well as the rest of YYH) since its the twists and turns that lead to the battles and confrontations. It's not about battles that exist in a vacuum of story and characters.

It is unfortunate how the whole battle-shonen structure has basically been molded after the Namek arc. Lots of various grunt characters that the heroes fight, each one stronger than the last, until the big showdown with the big bad who's by far the strongest of the lot in a uber long battle that's dragged for the sake of "epicness." You know what happened in the story of Bleach last year? Ichigo came back from the Soul King's Palace and then goes back again. That's it. That's all that happens. Everything else was just meaningless fights between a bunch of characters that don't impact the story or the heroes or the villains plans at all. They are just fights for the sake of having fights because all the heroes have to beat some mook before Ichigo can finally take down the big bad, just because. It's the epitome of everything that is wrong with the common battle-shonen arc structure.

And yeah, what I love about the Chapter Black arc of YYH, as well as Hunter X Hunter and most parts of JoJo's ftr, is that fights don't just happen randomly, but as part of the natural progression of the story. I also have always loved how most of the enemies are not always stronger than the heroes in a traditional sense, but can use their powers in interesting ways to provide a legitimate threat to them regardless, and there's often a lot of tension in figuring out how to outwit them and exploit the weaknesses of their abilities, rather than overpower them with a super strong punch or something. I also just love how most of the "fights" in those series aren't so much fights in the traditional sense of two people beating each other into submission. I'll never forget the first time I saw Kurama's word game with Kaito and I went "THIS! This is what I've always wanted to see! Why isn't there more of THIS!" There's a reason why that episode is still my favorite in the series. Unconventional fights are also actually what drew me to Bobobo as a kid, since many of it's "fights" took bizarre and amusing turns (one "fight" in the series basically involves Jelly Jiggler getting a dog to choose between him and a piece of yogurt gum. The gum doesn't have sentience, special powers, or talk or move or anything. It's just a piece of gum. Jelly Jiggler loses.)  :D

I should clarify that I wasn't highlighting those 3 series as examples of the poor state of the genre. Read again what I wrote:

There are 2 types of battle shonen these days, for me:

-Ones with interesting worlds and concepts that fail to capitalize on doing anything interesting with them.
-Generic safe crap

I specifically listed those 3 series because I found that they had much better set-ups than most modern shonen, but in one way or another disappointed me by not living up to tgeir potential.

Now, to be fair, I haven't been caught up with World Trigger, so maybe that gas improved since I left off, but I can fairly comment on the other two:

Magi: Remember how in the Magnostadt arc they discovered that non-magic citizens were being imprisoned underground to symphony energy from them for their defensive barrier, BUT were kept oblivious to that and actually kept happy for their lives by as much food and drink as they wanted? It posed a moral dilemma for Aladdin and his group, as this seemed clearly wrong, but if those people knew no other lifestyle and were content with the way that they lived, and helped contribute to the safety of thousands more above ground, was it really any more right to change that? Of course you know that Aladdin will still be against it, but the dilemma is still there, and it's brilliant.

I want more of that! I'm sick of situations that are one-sided, have an easy answer and a clear way out. Good drama cones from true dilemmas, and the effect it has on shaping the characters around it. When we got to the part where Alibaba returned to Balbadd only to see that the Kou Empire had brought its slavery system there, yet had the city running better than it ever had been before, that was super interesting. Alibaba doesn't want slavery, but in order to gain back his right to rule the conquered city and restore it, he has to agree to a marriage alliance with the Kou empire, and even if he does and removes slavery, there's the fear that the city will just go back to an even worse class-based system and leave it just as bad as before. I was looking forward to seeing where this went, but then we got a long flash-back arc that had nothing to do with this. While I didn't particularly care for it, I accepted its importance to the overall story. But then when I thought that we'd go back to Alibaba's really interesting story, but sonething else really stupid and much less interesting took center stage. I'll let you fill in the blank for me. ;)

Then I read a fantasy novel called A Dance With Dragons, and got that exact kind of story that I wanted to see, and that's when it realky hit me that I just don't care for modern battle shonen in general. Most are more about easy solutions via fights than about interesting dilemmas and evolving characters. I'm not criticizing the genre for not being that, but am saying that I just don't want to read what mist battle shonen are trying to be. In tge case of Magi, though, I was let down, because it was capable of so much more.

My Hero Academy: As a comedy manga I was enjoying it. Now that it focuses more on traditional battles, character archetypes, and predictable speeches about what it means to be a hero and stick to ideals, I just don't find it to be particularly interesting outside of some occasional comedy.

I'm really just burned out on the formula, and currently my interest in fiction lie elsewhere. That's why I'm just not into this genre nearly as much as I used to be.

That's understandable. As far as Magi goes I've been fairly vocal about my disappointment and the missed potential with recent events as well and would like to see more of what the Magnostadt arc offered rather than what the current one has so far.

I love Game of Thrones myself for the same reasons you do, so I understand really wanting to see more of those kinds of stories and anything less just not doing it for you. I can't say I find the three series you've mentioned more about "easy solutions" than about the development of the story and characters, by any stretch, but they certainly aren't on GOT's level of depth and nuance in terms of a mutli-faceted story and characters, and I'd be surprised we see something as well-crafted along those lines in the genre anytime soon.

MHA was never a comedy manga, no more so than how any other battle-shonen is at the beginning, so I don't really get that conception. As far as "traditional battles, character archetypes, and predictable speeches about what it means to be a hero" go, I feel the execution of what's been presented so far has been effective in establishing an expanded cast of characters and setting up future conflict in the story, and has left plenty of room for the series to evolve, so I simply don't see it the same way. I personally think the series' greatest strength is still in the character of Midoriya, who still has to find creative ways to overcome his physical weakness and his inability to use his power for long stretches of time, which makes for personal conflicts and situations I find interesting. This aspect of the series hasn't been diminished for me yet, and ideally shouldn't so long as the progression of the character's arc remains on track the way it has and he gets more fleshed out in the future.

Admittedly, I do have a problem with WT and MHA in that they both seem to have a larger cast of characters than it seems they can handle. There's just too many names and faces to remember and unlike with GRRM with ASOIAF I don't think these mangaka are going to be able to make all these characters relevant, well-rounded, and well-developed as the story continues. This hasn't been a detriment to my enjoyment of these series as of yet, since they have focused more on the more fleshed-out and established characters appropriately, but it is a problem I have with many battle shonen manga these days and a concern with these series going forward regardless.

Overall I find these series well-done for what they are trying to be and do and successfully entertaining in that endeavor, but I can see how some might not be able to invest in or appreciate what they've presented, particularly if you're primarily looking for more ASOIAF-level of storytelling and characters.

Once again I seem to have sonewhat misconstrued my point. I was merely using GOT as an example, not saying that I want battle shonen to be just like that.

I could also use several other examples as well, including manga and anime of other genres, or older battle shonen series. I was only comparing Magi specifically to ADWD because they are both fantasy series and have some propensity for politics, so I wanted to show an actual example of where Magi's story could've gone, and I wouldn't expect the same depth or nuance, but I'd be entertained by it all the same. Another more appropriate comparison would be comparing Magi to ATLA. Both series are targeted towards older kids and young adults, but one clearly puts more thought into its world and character development than the other. That's the basic point that I'm trying to get across with Magi specifically.

As for MHA, I strongly disagree that it was never a comedy manga. Many of the early chapters were crammed with more jokes and gags than an average serious battle shonen series. Even if it is ultimately a battle manga, ignoring the plethora of comedy aspects early on and saying that it was never a comedy manga just seems a bit silly to me. That'd be like ignoring the first 2 whole volumes of YYH and saying that it was a battle manga from the start.

...I thought I understood your point well. You specifically said ADWD is more of the kind of story you wanted to see. You prefer stories written like GOT, Breaking Bad, etc. these days. Most modern battle-shonen don't appeal to you because they don't tell those kinds of stories. You said that you simply don't enjoy what most of the battle-shonen you've tried are trying to be. You don't care for how they've been written and haven't found their stories or characters engaging enough compared to the kinds of series you really love and would rather get more into these days.  Is that wrong?

I'm sorry, but I still don't get how you saw MHA as a comedy manga at the beginning. You are honestly the only person I've seen who had that perception of the series at the beginning. Of course there was comedy, but what shonen series doesn't have a lot more comedy at the start? I didn't think the early chapters had more gags than normal in it at the beginning at all. This is not the same situation with YYH. YYH completely changed it's very premise after the first two volumes. That was a case of a gag-manga turning into a battle-manga in order to boost it's popularity. MHA just moved forward with it in it's natural direction and with the story it established at the beginning it was going to tell. Even comparatively, unlike, say, with DB, Shaman King, etc.  at the beginning, it was perfectly clear you were supposed to take the developments in the first chapters and Midoriya's plight seriously and empathize with him, and the story was going to focus on his emotional growth going forward rather than a lot of goofy antics. If you didn't read the series that way, alright, but I never saw those early chapters in the same vein you did and from what I gather nobody else did either.  :??:

Quote from: Cartoon X on February 06, 2015, 10:14:04 AM
I love Game of Thrones myself for the same reasons you do, so I understand really wanting to see more of those kinds of stories and anything less just not doing it for you.

This is pretty much how I feel about most television after watching The Wire.

Quote from: Cartoon X on February 06, 2015, 11:08:14 AM
...I thought I understood your point well. You specifically said ADWD is more of the kind of story you wanted to see. You prefer stories written like GOT, Breaking Bad, etc. these days. Most modern battle-shonen don't appeal to you because they don't tell those kinds of stories. You said that you simply don't enjoy what most of the battle-shonen you've tried are trying to be. You don't care for how they've been written and haven't found their stories or characters engaging enough compared to the kinds of series you really love and would rather get more into these days.  Is that wrong?

But I specifically used it for my comparison with Magi. My point being that I'm not JUST talking about GOT. It was merely one example. I don't see what's so hard to get about that.

QuoteI'm sorry, but I still don't get how you saw MHA as a comedy manga at the beginning. You are honestly the only person I've seen who had that perception of the series at the beginning.

"I'm sorry," but I don't know how you or anyone else saw it as anything else in the beginning. [On a more serious note, I can't stand the phrase "I'm sorry" before stating a disagreement; it's one of those things that people say in common speech that doesn't really hold true; why would anyone have to be sorry about disagreeing with someone's opinion?]

Anyways, the artstyle was overly-cartoony (compare Midoriya to how he looked in the beginning to now, for instance), and just what the hell kind of battles did you see that took up more space than the comedy and gags? There was some training, but aside from that there was lots of physical humor and puns. Who exactly is everyone else, anyways? Just because nobody specifically mentioned it as a comedy manga didn't mean that a lot of it didn't exist. Either way, I'm really tired of you bringing up this point. I disagree, you disagree, plain and simple. That's besides the point. I liked the manga early on when it was less about generic training and villain fights, and more about just being fun. I'm not against either of those things, but I don't find the execution to be anything special. Clearly you do. That's fine. There really isn't much more to say about it than that. I'm just not personally a fan of the direction that this manga is taking.

QuoteOf course there was comedy, but what shonen series doesn't have a lot more comedy at the start? I didn't think the early chapters had more gags than normal in it at the beginning at all.

Then I don't know what to say, because it clearly had far more comedy than any average battle shonen at the start, and if somehow it was meant to be taken completely seriously, then this manga is worse than I thought, since it would have to have been unintentionally hilarious. I'd like to think that's not the case, but based on your input of it being a "super serial" battle manga, apparently it is. :humhumhum:

Quote from: Foggle on February 06, 2015, 11:10:56 AM

Quote from: Cartoon X on February 06, 2015, 10:14:04 AM
I love Game of Thrones myself for the same reasons you do, so I understand really wanting to see more of those kinds of stories and anything less just not doing it for you.

This is pretty much how I feel about most television after watching The Wire.

That reminds me that I need to get back to that show. I still haven't finished season 1 yet. I do like it, but just haven't gotten to that point where I get hooked into binge-watching it, though from what I hear that point will probably come around the second season.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on February 06, 2015, 01:08:42 PM
That reminds me that I need to get back to that show. I still haven't finished season 1 yet. I do like it, but just haven't gotten to that point where I get hooked into binge-watching it, though from what I hear that point will probably come around the second season.

It happened to me about halfway through season 1 iirc. You might want to restart the show from the beginning unless you remember the episodes you watched really well, since it's definitely a series that requires your full attention and knowledge to enjoy.

On that note, I'm probably going to watch Game of Thrones sometime within the next few months finally!

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on February 06, 2015, 01:05:57 PM
But I specifically used it for my comparison with Magi. My point being that I'm not JUST talking about GOT. It was merely one example. I don't see what's so hard to get about that.

I did get that. And I never intended my post to make it out like you where just talking about GOT alone, just that it's exemplary of the kind of series you are more into, so I think that's just a bit of miscommunication there. I have noticed that you tend to bring that series up the most frequently when you've been comparing and criticizing aspects in battle-shonen series, not just limited to Magi, though.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on February 06, 2015, 01:05:57 PM
[On a more serious note, I can't stand the phrase "I'm sorry" before stating a disagreement; it's one of those things that people say in common speech that doesn't really hold true; why would anyone have to be sorry about disagreeing with someone's opinion?]

Well, I'll try not to use such offensive statements from now on in our discussions.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on February 06, 2015, 01:05:57 PM
Then I don't know what to say, because it clearly had far more comedy than any average battle shonen at the start, and if somehow it was meant to be taken completely seriously, then this manga is worse than I thought, since it would have to have been unintentionally hilarious. I'd like to think that's not the case, but based on your input of it being a "super serial" battle manga, apparently it is. :humhumhum:

I never once said it was "super serious" or everything was meant to be taken completely seriously at the start. But I do feel that you are exaggerating how much humor there is at the beginning, and how much of a focus it took over the development and direction of the story proper.

FTR- The use of the term "serial" instead of "serious" is a pretty good indicator that I was just joking about your insinuation of what kind of series that it was. :sly:

Anyways, I'm still following both manga, for the record, so it's not like I've completely given up on either being entertaining for me again. I only mentioned those because, on the contrary, they were among the few modern shonen that I felt had the potential for greatness. As for MHA, it's still less than 30 chapters in, so I'm willing to stick with it for at least a year. With Magi, it's been losing me for the better part of a year, but I still have enough good faith left over from the Magnostadt arc to give it another half a year or so to win me back.

Quote from: Foggle on February 06, 2015, 01:26:02 PMOn that note, I'm probably going to watch Game of Thrones sometime within the next few months finally!

That's great to hear. I will say, though, that much like The Wire, the beginning is kind of slow but very crucial to pay attention to for what happens later. Interestingly, I thought that season 1 was just OK at first and didn't get hooked until Peter Dinklage became more prominent on the show in the second season, but after going back to re-watch the show once I knew where the story was headed, the first season really impressed me a lot more in retrospect.

Oh, and don't mind the Sexposition too much. I think that HBO just added in a lot of scenes like that for a ratings boost early on, but thankfully they seem to rely a bit less on it as the show goes on (only just a bit, though).

As for The Wire, I believe that I will restart it from the beginning. I've already forgotten most of what happened in the first 5 episodes. I think that I'll get back to it once I finally finish up watching Bordwalk Empire.

Both GOT and The Wire won me over after just the first few episodes, myself. I actually ended up watching every episode of season 1 of the The Wire three or so times just to absorb everything that happened in them. I really want to get back into it soon, but because I need to sit down and really pay attention to it while I'm watching it, it's just hard for me to find time to right now.

I always felt that the reason GOT had so much sex and nudity, at least earlier on, was to bring the series closer to its pulp roots. The novels had their fair share of sex scenes as well, but not as much as the show. They really aren't that big of a deal, though.

But I have to admit, with The Wire, while the show is undeniably excellent, I have no real desire to watch it again for a long time. It just isn't the kind of show I can come back to again and again.

I actually have no Internet for the time being, so I can only go online via my limited data plan, or go outside to any place with free wi-fi, but the whether is horrible over here, so I only go on certain days. That's more or less why I haven't been watching anything new, and only keep up with a select few shows and manga. Also, I personally feel a bit awkward watching shows or reading comics in public. There's no reason to be, but I'm just inexplicably shy sbout that stuff in front of strangers, even if they really don't give a shit.

Quote from: Avaitor on February 06, 2015, 02:59:12 PMI always felt that the reason GOT had so much sex and nudity, at least earlier on, was to bring the series closer to its pulp roots. The novels had their fair share of sex scenes as well, but not as much as the show. They really aren't that big of a deal, though.

Pulp roots?

But yeah, the novels didn't have as many, but the extra ones in the show didn't bother me like they did for some people. At least most of them have something to do with actual character relationships, or even advance the plot, rather than just being there for some contrived reason....like the "magic seamen" from the Fate visual novel. :humhumhum:

Also, I have to say that, while GOT, Breaking Bad, Bordwalk Empire, and various other "sophisticated" dramas have kind of spoiled me, it doesn't mean that I can't appreciate other well done shows that don't have wuite the same level of budget and talent behind them. I still like Buffy and eagerly watch Arrow each week and enjoy them a ton.

So, going back to my point about battle shonen, it's not that I necessarily want them to be super sophisticated. I just wish that more of them would rely less on tired formulas is all. I just want a fun series that's story or character-driven and has fun fights, but that isn't dominated by trying to set-up new fights.

I feel like HXH could've done that last year if Togashi had just gotten the ball rolling and didn't take yet another break.

Quote from: Cartoon X on February 06, 2015, 02:35:37 PM
Both GOT and The Wire won me over after just the first few episodes, myself. I actually ended up watching every episode of season 1 of the The Wire three or so times just to absorb everything that happened in them. I really want to get back into it soon, but because I need to sit down and really pay attention to it while I'm watching it, it's just hard for me to find time to right now.

The Wire won me over with its very first cold opening! I just wasn't in love enough to marathon it until around episode 6-7.

Same. I only watched up to episode 5, but it's a show that I really appreciate when I'm actually watching it, but never felt overly compelled to watch the next episode right away. With GOT, I liked it early on, but didn't get insanely hooked until the end of season 1, and started binge-watching it with the second season.

i am not sure what kind of new anime i would like just based on its official description. it's either word of mouth or because togashi made it.

Similar to how CX has his opinion on what the better RK arc is between Kyoto and Revenge, I have such an opinion with One Piece with Water Seven and Enies Lobby.

Now, I enjoy both immensely, but if I had to pick a stronger portion, it'd definitely be Enies Lobby. I don't get why so many people seem to think that it drops the ball. It's the perfect pay-off to Water Seven's set-up. And really, Water Seven IS really just a set-up arc. It had great moments, don't get me wrong, but I fail to see how stuff like Nico Robin's past, the culmination of Franky's character arc, the burning of the World Government flag scene, the epic confrontation with CP9, Chopper "hulking out" on his Rumble Balls for the first time, Luffy's first Gear 2 and 3 scenes, some of the best character fights in the series, earlier plot points like Little Garden being payed off big time, major future events being set-up and influenced by this arc, and some really strong emotional moments make this an inferior product. Nobody has ever given me a convincing reason as to why I'm wrong, so I just plain don't get OP fans, I guess.

And like I said, I like Water Seven, and Luffy and Usopp's feud are among my favorite moments of the series (and reminds me that the Straw Hat pirates have never had more chemistry between each other than in these arcs), but I do find EL to be stronger. It's my 2nd favorite arc in the series.

I honestly used to always view them both as one arc before I found out people considered otherwise. They are about equal in terms of quality and great moments, in my book. I could flip flop on which I prefer depending on my mood. I'll admit that I never cared for some of the power-ups the Straw Hats got in EL, and that may have put parts of it down a bit for me.

That feels a bit trivial to me, though, in the grand scheme of things. Power-up-wise, Luffy and Chopper had the only interesting ones, but the fights themselves were still entertaining, and on a story level, EL is arguably the second most pivotal arc in the series, and was the most pivotal at that point in time before Marineford.

Anyways, I also view it as one big arc, but I just don't get why so many fans consider EL specifically to be inferior to W7.

Castle of Cagliostro is not just a poor portrayal of Lupin, it's a sappy, preachy and fairly forgettable film. I do appreciate the action sequences, but the story and characters just failed to get me invested which made the action fall flat for me. I really do not understand the appeal, to me Mamo is the better film.

I also prefer Mamo, but damn. Considering your opinions on Cagliostro and Fujiko Mine, I think we're going to have to just agree to disagree on Lupin entirely. :shit:

GSF is probably now your biggest fan. :humhumhum:

In all honesty I enjoy Castle of Cagliostro. The appeal is that it's a fun film in its own right. It's certainly not accurate to the the source material in terms of its portrayal of the characters, but if I were to hold that against it I would also have to hold it against several other Lupin adaptations outside of series like The Woman Called Fujiko Mine.

Why am I just seeing this sig? :srs:

It's an excellent adventure movie. It just happens to star Lupin characters.

Pretty much.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 05, 2015, 09:34:09 PM
It's an excellent adventure movie. It just happens to star Lupin characters.

To be honest, every adaptation of Lupin is so different from both the other anime series and the original manga that I don't think this is a fair assessment. It's just as much Lupin as any other film.

I mean, watch Mamo, Cagliostro, Legend of the Gold of Babylon, and Daisuke Jigen's Gravestone one after the other. They barely resemble each other outside of the main characters and music.

Quote from: Foggle on March 05, 2015, 09:39:24 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 05, 2015, 09:34:09 PM
It's an excellent adventure movie. It just happens to star Lupin characters.

To be honest, every adaptation of Lupin is so different from both the other anime series and the original manga that I don't think this is a fair assessment. It's just as much Lupin as any other film.

I mean, watch Mamo, Cagliostro, Legend of the Gold of Babylon, and Daisuke Jigen's Gravestone one after the other. They barely resemble each other outside of the main characters and music.

I agree. I'm just saying that going on about how they're OOC is kind of pointless considering what the movie is about. It serves the story for them to be how they are in the movie.

Personally, I like those versions of the characters. It seems to be how Miyazaki thought of them, so I think it's a valid interpretation.

Quote from: Foggle on March 05, 2015, 09:39:24 PM
To be honest, every adaptation of Lupin is so different from both the other anime series and the original manga that I don't think this is a fair assessment. It's just as much Lupin as any other film.

I mean, watch Mamo, Cagliostro, Legend of the Gold of Babylon, and Daisuke Jigen's Gravestone one after the other. They barely resemble each other outside of the main characters and music.

I agree. The Lupin characters and concept are so simple and iconic that they can be interpreted and presented in multiple different ways, and still remain true to the heart of the franchise. Whether it's something as tame as Cagilostro or as mature as The Woman Called Fujiko Mine, at their core they're both Lupin to me.

To think of it another way, as a franchise it's no different than something like Scooby Doo or Batman. You can do a lot with the premise and the characters and put them in multiple incarnations and they can all be different from each other in some way, but ultimately each incarnation remains true to it's roots and is recognizably what it's always been at heart.

Dammit, I wanted to mention Batman after your first paragraph.

From what I remember, Secret Of Mamo Lupin is just like 2nd series Lupin.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on March 05, 2015, 10:05:24 PM
I agree. I'm just saying that going on about how they're OOC is kind of pointless considering what the movie is about. It serves the story for them to be how they are in the movie.

Personally, I like those versions of the characters. It seems to be how Miyazaki thought of them, so I think it's a valid interpretation.

Oh, okay! I feel the same way.

Quote from: gunswordfist on March 05, 2015, 10:24:33 PM
From what I remember, Secret Of Mamo Lupin is just like 2nd series Lupin.

Mamo is weird. Lupin and Zenigata are much darker characters than usual, and Fujiko is oddly submissive in the second half. Awesome film, though.

Hmm, I'll have to compare the two some day then.

Ehh, I'm probably being too harsh on the film. I just have some set expectations about Lupin, and CoC didn't match them.

This analysis (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5wmuuXZ13E) heightened my appreciation of it as a standalone work. The script, cinematography etc. holds together a lot better than the other Lupin works I've seen.

Part of the reason why I don't like DBZ as an anime, besides just bad dubbing, is because I largely blame it for giving the series such a negative representation outside of Japan. Toei's cheap budget animation does Toriyama's lively artwork no justice, and on top of that it makes people think of it as a mindless battle shonen with episode-long power-ups and lots of long fights when most of those things were only prolonged in the anime version to a pretty ridiculous extent.

Take the Namek arc for example. This often gets criticized by haters of the series as just a long series of fights, but that's actually not quite true considering how story-driven it is up until Freeza finally decides to fight. Up to that point, it's actually a pretty interesting three-way struggle for the Dragon Balls as Krillin and Gohan try to keep it away from Freeza's men, Vegeta tries to get them for himself but has to outwit Freeza and his top-ranking officers who he can't take down with brute strength if they all gang up on him, and Freeza himself as he tries to take down anyone who opposes him via his minions, which forces Gohan/Krillin, Vegeta, and the remaining Namekians to form an alliance to even stand a chance. It's a lot more about intense situations against more powerful foes, and thus relies more on characters trying to avoid fighting until they inevitably have to in a way that's natural to the progression of the plot.

When Goku shows up then yes, fighting does take center stage, but it's hardly mindless power battles until the end where he goes SSJ,  and even that has some strong emotional moments to go with it. Before that, though, the fight is kept interesting through a sense of desperation, in which Goku and the others must utilize their wits and strategy to even survive against Freeza.

Of course, the anime was dragged out and over-emphasized power-ups and fight scenes, so that's all that some people tend to remember about it, which is a shame, because there's much more to it than that. I mean, I could honestly make the argument that Stardust Crusaders is more battle-happy than Dragon Ball, yet I don't see anyone ever complaining about that; with my point being that there's nothing wrong with it, but it seems a bit hypocritical to excuse that and berate DB for being almost nothing but fighting when it has considerably less of it.

Actually, I've seen a lot of people who got into JoJo's through the first anime not being nearly as fond of the villain of the week structure of Stardust Crusaders. Nowadays I think the popular opinion is to prefer Battle Tendency over it (though I still like SC more myself).

To be honest, I feel that the animation aspect of DBZ is a little too maligned by some circles. While it isn't particularly great, especially compared to many much better looking series produced even earlier or around the same time, there are a lot of good bits of animation in many key battles (Goku v. Vegeta, for instance), and many other well-done moments that stand out as memorable and iconic because of their execution. I think DBZ actually looks better and has much better animation than the original DB, but the reason it's much less watchable compared to that (imo) is more because of it's poor pacing choices and much less well integrated and additive filler. I think the biggest crime it commits as an adaption is having many battles stretch on for episode after episode with barely anything changing in between. It was at it's worst in the battle with Freeza, especially after the point where Goku became a Super Saiyan, and the whole "5 minutes = 10 episodes" colored a lot of people's perception of the series and the Namek arc in a really negative fashion, and what gave DBZ that reputation of being strictly a mindless battle series.

As for an opinion that's been on my mind recently (it's not necessarily unpopular, at least among UY fans), I think anyone who claims that Mamoru Oshii's half of Urusei Yatsura is the best and Yamazaki's is not as good or that Beautiful Dreamer is the pinnacle and the best part of the series is flat-out wrong. People who say this seem to me like they either haven't actually watched the series or that think Oshii's involvement improved the series somehow, which is is simply untrue. The anime improved as it went along not because Oshii took more control of it, but because the original manga itself improved over time, and honestly Oshii dropped the ball towards the end of his run in adapting a lot of the stories and Yamazaki did a much better job of it when he took over (I really wish he could have handled The Miss Tomobiki Contest instead of Oshii, honestly...). The most important thing Oshii brought to the series as a director was giving it a sense of polish in it's animation, direction, storyboarding, and the general look of the show as it went on; aesthetic embellishments. All the serious and artsy stuff some people seem to believe color Oshii's half is limited to only a few select episodes, and otherwise while some stories were altered in order to flesh out a single chapter into a full episode and such, they mostly kept the same tone as they did in the original manga.

As for BD, don't get me wrong, it's my favorite anime movie and one of my all time favorite movies in general, but while it's true to the characters it's a different beast tonally and in style from the main series and is more a Oshii-style film featuring UY characters, much like how Castle of Cagilostro is a Miyazaki-style film that happens to feature Lupin characters. While it's a phenomenal film, it's not really representative of what the series is, not even Oshii's half, and people who regard it as the best thing to come out of UY generally seem to only say so because most anime critics tend to have elitist/artistic leanings, and Oshii's work is highly regarded among such people because of their artistic merits. Personally, I feel the film's success lies equally in the strength of the characters themselves as much as it's artistic and intellectual elements. It might be a more story-driven than character-driven film overall, but to get the most out of it I think you really do need to have an understanding of the key characters involved, since what the movie says about them is equally as not more meaningful as the philosophical messages it has. Oshii might not have really loved the characters, but he did at least understand them well towards the middle of his run (Ryuunosuke aside), which is why most of the anime original/"serious" episodes he did work as well as they do. At any rate, I'd say the first movie, Only You, is easily a much better representation of Oshii's work on the series as well as the series itself.

As far as which half is better, I think most fans of UY will tell you that Yamazaki's half is such, and I definitely agree. Yamazaki did everything Oshii did well in his half and did it even better, fixing some of the weaker elements as well (such as the occasional mis-representation of certain characters, namely Ataru and Ryuunosuke). His half is easily more consistent and at it's best even funnier. How the myth that the series isn't as good after Oshii left got started mind-boggles me, and I assume it has something to do with how Oshii is a more recognized and lauded name among western anime fans and critics than Yamazaki or even Takahashi herself. And while I love Oshii's work, I seriously disagree with anyone who dares claim he is what made the UY anime the series that it is, much less as popular as it was, and disregards the parts of the anime and the series he wasn't involved in, because everything that made and makes the series the important, influential, and timeless classic that it is can be found and is presented more consistently in Rumiko Takahashi's original manga. With or without Oshii, the anime wouldn't be as great as it is if it didn't already have such a strong source material to work from.

I re-read the RK manga about 2 years ago and have been re-watching parts of the Kyoto arc, and I must insist on sticking with my long-time opinion that it's an excellent adaptation of the manga. I honestly can't understand why some people here specifically seem to insist otherwise. And honestly I can't help but feel that there is bias when it comes to the fact that the Tokyo arc is inferior in the anime, and the post-Kyoto filler drags the anime down in general, so with Kyoto smacked in the middle of a "generally" inferior adaptation, people just kind of lump it in with the rest.

Here's why I completely disagree with that:

-First off it's directed by Furuhashi, who also did HXH, and who knows how to adapt source material to work best in an animated medium. Now, the first arc had lots of changes and anime-exclusive material dragging it down, but that's something to blame on the writers. With Kyoto, they stayed incredibly faithful to the source material, so Furuhashi's direction could finally begin to shine with better material to work with.

-Not only is the music/soundtrack great, but the anime actually knows how to use it. So many modern adaptations are plagued with inappropriate music, and the few that actually have good music have absolutely no clue when it is and isn't appropriate to use it. Take MadHouse's HXH for example. Great music, but the soundtrack is rarely given a rest, and too many themes either get overused or used during inappropriate scenes. Now look at RK. Take the scene where Kenshin is fighting Seita. At first the music is a more neutral choice and more in the background, but slowly yet subtly ratchets up in intensity as the fight progresses. This isn't done at random. Pay attention and you'll notice that the music is in tone not only with the action, but also with Seita's emotional state, as he slowly loses his calm composure and becomes more frustrated and enraged throughout the battle. I promise, you won't find little touches of brilliance like that in modern shonen adaptations, save for a few, and that's just one example from RK.

- The use of lighting and cinematography is outstanding. Just think of how many modern adaptations take this for granted, and it's even more amazing to see how well it was done, here. This article explains how it was put to good use for HXH '99: https://twolongfourtwitlonger.wordpress.com/2014/12/21/hxh-99-hxh-2011-btw/
Now just apply that to scenes like the fight between Kenshin and Saito. A modern adaptation would just copy/paste the panels from the manga in a well-lit room and have all of the same events take place but without any care or thought put into using the advantages of animation to properly supplement the tone of what's actually going on from the perspective of the characters. Remember, this is our first true glimpse into Kenshin's dark side in the story. Everything in that scene manages to visually portray the changing mood without the need for dialogue to tell us about it. The setting sun establishes the change in tone to something much darker about to take place. The dim lighting and violently bright glow in Kenshin's eyes (which call back to the glimpse of that which we saw in his fight with Jin-Ei) are a reflection of his former personality beginning to emerge, and is once again a use of visuals that take advantage of animation (you couldn't portray that in a colorless manga). It's not like the animation budget was even there. The animation itself is very limited, but the way in which it's utilized is what counts, and it shows that you can make scenes great when the people working on it genuinely care about what they are doing, have the talent to do it, and put in the effort to get it done right. And, once again, that scene is just one example of many. Scenes like Kenshin's goodbye to Kaouru with the fireflies in the background, the use of tonal lighting during the scene where Sanosuke's former leader gets betrayed, and various other scenes get paid off big time with the effort put in to portray them in the anime.

I remember Avaitor once saying that RK wasn't as good as I made it out to be until he read the manga, and then wasn't sure why I insisted that the Kyoto arc was so good in the anime. Well, while I didn't fully realize why, myself, now I can put it into words; so, that's why. I remember CX calling the first arc in the anime a disappointment, and I believe had the same stance on the rest of the series, which is fine, but it's a shame then that all of that effort meant nothing in the end. I also remember how Desensitized/Spark will openly criticize the anime for not getting it right, not just with the filler, but with Kyoto as well, and while you have every right to do so, it does rather dishearten me that you see no merit in all of the love, attention to detail, and clear passion that went into adapting that arc of the anime. It's now a relic of a time when anime adaptations could take creative liberties to enhance the experience while staying true to the source material. Maybe I'm the only one here who views this arc of the RK anime in that light, but I firmly believe that even if they were to remake it with a bigger budget and modern animation quality, you still wouldn't get a better adaptation of the Kyoto arc than you did with the original anime. Criticize it all you want, but never deny that this was an adaptation with some sense of creative passion behind it, whether it worked for you or not (and I'll still never get why this is considered "inferior").

It just saddens me to see some of you guys brush off the Kyoto arc in the anime like it's not worth anything compared to the manga. I just....strongly disagree, in this case, and my recent revisiting of it is cementing that notion in for me more than ever before.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on March 20, 2015, 03:35:37 PM
I remember CX calling the first arc in the anime a disappointment, and I believe had the same stance on the rest of the series,

I just didn't care for the filler episodes added in the Tokyo arc, which I found tedious to watch, and didn't like some of the censorship and pacing decisions made to the canon material (primarily in the Oniwaban portion of the arc). Don't know where you are getting the last bit from - I think the Kyoto arc was far better adapted and in many respects improved on parts of the arc in the manga.  :P

I agree about the Tokyo arc, but like the filler, I blame it on the anime writers rather than Furuhashi and the animators. Also, a fun fact (which you probably already know) is that Furuhashi got his earliest animation experience working on various Takahashi anime adaptations like UY and MI (not as a director but in the positions of key animator and story boarding).

Glad to see that you also enjoyed the Kyoto arc in the anime. :joy:

I'm not sure which version I prefer so I can't really compare them overall. I know I like the Saito and Seijuro fights more in the anime. I'm pretty sure I like the Seita and Shishio fights more in the manga. I have to rewatch and reread to give a real opinion on this.

Wow, this is a great defense, EK.

Honestly, it's been so long since I've seen the anime that it likely deserves another shot. Give or take the post-Kyoto material.

I have only seen the anime of Kenshin but I liked it a lot, especially the Trust & Betrayal OVAs.

Thanks, Avaitor! :)

If you ever get the time, you can just re-watch the Kyoto arc alone since that's the stand-out of the series. It's all streaming for free on CR.

Quote from: Foggle on March 21, 2015, 12:06:23 AM
I have only seen the anime of Kenshin but I liked it a lot, especially the Trust & Betrayal OVAs.

Kazuhiro Furuhashi did those as well. I think that his direction is brilliant when he has good material to work with. When you have awful writing like with the RK filler or the Reflection OVA, then he can do nothing to save it.

That said, the manga is the best overall version. The Remembrance arc (adapted into Trust and Betrayal because it was just THAT iconic of a story arc), is one of the greatest origin stories ever, IMO....and it came from a Shonen Jump manga. Just process that for a moment....:D

Damn, Furuhashi is good. I need to rewatch Trust & Betrayal.

Well, I love his work on HXH '99 specifically, though I also can't call him perfect. I've heard that he didn't do such a great job on Get Backers, though since I haven't seen it, I can't comment.

You have watched at least one episode. I do like Get Backers but it's been awhile.

The first half of Barefoot Gen was published in Shonen Jump. Compared to that, the "Remembrance" arc is hardly the most surprising thing they've published.  :P

Quote from: Foggle on March 21, 2015, 12:06:23 AM
I have only seen the anime of Kenshin but I liked it a lot, especially the Trust & Betrayal OVAs.

You should get around to the manga someday. Remembrance and Revenge are fantastic arcs that add a ton to the story.

I'm not saying that it's the only iconic thing with a darker and more tragic story-line that they've published, or even nearly the most surprising. I'm simply pointing out how atypical of an arc it is based on what you'd expect from a Jump manga. Surely there are other examples from other series, but they are in the minority when compared to what usually represents the publication.

I surely will read the manga someday! It's on my list. :)

Iiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttttt's great!

So, I saw the third live-action Rurouni Kenshin film on Monday, as I did with the previous two movies during their screenings these last two months. I have to say...I'm embarrassed at how misinformed I was about these movies. I had only seen scattered clips and comments from others and dismissed them as another set of poor adaptations without having watched them myself. Having done so, I not only think they are excellent films, but I honestly think the film series' version of the Kyoto arc is the best adaptation of that story I've seen, and made some changes that I actually liked better than how they were presented in the original manga.

Sure, there are lots of characters that don't get quite as well developed because they couldn't fit everything the manga did with them in just 4 hours, but Keishi Otomo clearly understood the driving themes of the arc and Kenshin's character really well and executed the story in a starkly different fashion from the manga yet just as thematically powerful, and the performances of all the actors, particularly Takeru Satoh as Kenshin and Tatsuya Fujiwara as Shishio, were excellent and demonstrated a range of emotions that captured the depth of their characters perfectly. The story is re-written to better suit the pacing of film and adds extra layers of thematic intrigue in expanding the role the government officials play in the story and the moral grey area of their dealings and characters. There's added stakes in the fact that Shishio's battleship poses a looming and omnipresent danger and is not destroyed until the very end of the third movie, which was something I liked since I was always disappointed in how they pretty much stopped Shishio's plan by mid-way into the arc and the rest of the arc ended up just being a string of battles. Finally, the fight scenes in the movies are excellent and exciting, with the final battle with Shishio probably being one of the best I've seen in a while. Overall, these films do well in taking the source material and staying true to it while also taking risks and making changes to better suit their medium, and set the bar high as to what live-action adaptations of anime and manga series should aspire to. I know there are people here who have seen the films and didn't care for them, but I really enjoyed them and think they are fantastic adaptations, and sincerely regret not giving them a chance earlier and dismissing them without having watched them. I'd definitely recommend them to any Kenshin fans, or heck, even fans of samurai movies in general.

Between these Kenshin films and the Bakuman live-action movie, I've become more optimistic and am quite looking forward to the slate of live-action movie adaptations on the horizon, particularly JoJo's and Gintama. These adaptations can work and be really good in the hands of smart filmmakers who are passionate and truly understand the source material like Otomo clearly did.