Angel

[Avaitor]

I really do like your list, EK, but mine would have to look like-

10- Sleep Tight
9- Orpheus
8- I Will Remember You
7- Are You Now or Have You Ever Been
6- A Hole in the World
5- Five by Five/Sanctuary
4- The Girl in Question
3- Lullaby
2- Smile Time
1- Not Fade Away

And an honorable mention to "Apocalypse, Nowish", for being mostly great until that awful end. But yeah, I guess that season 5 is my favorite, after all, since almost half of my list is from it.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Awesome list! And shit....I totally forgot about your #7 choice. Now that I think about it, I'd probably replace Redefinition with that episode, although I really do love that one as well.

We agree on 4 other choices as well. Here's what I think of each of those episodes:

Spoiler

10. We both have this on our list, and for good reason, it's excellent. Wesley's "betrayal" of Angel is one of the most pivotal moments of the show, and what's more shocking is that as viewers, we are actually in support of Wesley because he's legitimately trying to do the right thing, even if he is ultimately being fooled into doing something that he shouldn't. It really drives a wrench between the entire team, and leads to much darker times to come. It's excellent from both a story-telling and character standpoint.

9. Aside from cameos from both Faith and Willow, it's a great look into Angel's history during his time with a soul, but before he met Buffy.

8. As one of Buffy's only direct appearances on the show, it's fantastic, and it's a good send off to the. Buffy and Angel relationship, which is cut off here for good.

7. An episode that I can't believe that I forgot about, but it's excellent as a look into a time when Angel, even with a soul, had no faith in humanity. It's a great contrast to see how far he managed to come as a character.

6. While not a personal favorite of mine, it's still a heartbreaking sendoff to Fred and a great transition and introduction to Illyria.

5. A great two-parter that delivers on Angel's offer to help Faith way back in Buffy season 3, as he's able to understand what she's going through, and really wants to help her achieve redemption. It's also great to see Buffy back one more time for her second and last appearance in this series.

4. An absolutely hilarious episode showcasing the amazing chemistry between Spike and Angel. And of course I can't forget to mention the hilarious cameo from good old Andrew! This is also a personal favorite of mine. I especially love the flashbacks and present day bits where they get jealous of The Immortal for stealing their women.

3. This one almost made my list but just missed it, but man that last scene in the episode is amazing. It also cemented Holtz as my favorite villain in the series, besides Angelus himself.

2. Well, of course!

1. Also on my list, albeit in the last spot, but we both agree that it's an excellent finale to the series. It's divisive, because a lot of people hate that it ends on a cliffhanger, but as Whedon said, that's kind of the point if the show, that the fight is never done, so it really fits for this series thematically. And one can't ignore that everything up until that iconic last shot is simply amazing. I'd say that it arguably came off stronger than even Buffy's finale, which also made my list for that series. It's definitely one of the best, in my eyes, and as final episodes go, really managed to nail representing what this series was always about.

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[Avaitor]

Hey EK, I hope you don't mind if I post my responses outside of spoilers. It'll make it easier to keep up with the convo, so let's just hope that only people who've seen the show read this. So CartoonX or whoever else wants to get into the show but haven't, skip this.

Spoiler

10. We both have this on our list, and for good reason, it's excellent. Wesley's "betrayal" of Angel is one of the most pivotal moments of the show, and what's more shocking is that as viewers, we are actually in support of Wesley because he's legitimately trying to do the wrong thing, even if he is ultimately being fooled into doing something that he shouldn't. It really drives a wrench between the entire team, and leads to much darker times to come. It's excellent from both a story-telling and character standpoint.

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Oh man, I hate how everyone else sided against Wesley, even when they claimed that they didn't want to. Obviously, we know why they did, but it's infuriating to watch when it seems like Wesley's so clearly in the right... although, maybe he wasn't.

Spoiler

7. An episode that I can't believe that I forgot about, but it's excellent as a look into a time when Angel, even with a soul, had no faith in humanity. It's a great contrast to see how far he managed to come as a character.

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Not only is it a great character episode for Angel, but I love the atmosphere behind it. Clearly, we're better off now then from the 50's in terms of social issues, but it's still a fascinating era to me. It's also a little unusual for the show, since usually Angel's flashbacks come before he had a soul, and thus take place during older periods. This and "Orpheus" are obvious exceptions, though.

Spoiler

6. While not a personal favorite of mine, it's still a heartbreaking sendoff to Fred and a great transition and introduction to Illyria.

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Yeah, I've mentioned this before, but I'm not much of a fan of the Fred and Wesley pairing, but I buy it completely in this one episode. Alexis Denisof and Amy Acker's performances are unbelievable throughout, and yes, this does lead into the introduction of Illyria, which I think is a much better character for Acker in terms of acting.

I do think that it would be higher if I was a bigger fan of Fred or her relationship with Wesley, though. I know for people who really do like both, this is easily among their favorites.

Spoiler

5. A great two-parter that delivers on Angel's offer to help Faith way back in Buffy season 3, as he's able to understand what she's going through, and really wants to help her achieve redemption. It's also great to see Buffy back one more time for her second and last appearance in this series.

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I swear it's a coincidence that my favorite season 1 episodes are the ones with Buffy, but these really are great pieces for the show. But on your list, "Hero" was a hell of a send-off for Doyle, and would certainly make my top 20.

Spoiler

4. An absolutely hilarious episode showcasing the amazing chemistry between Spike and Angel. And of course I can't forget to mention the hilarious cameo from good old Andrew! This is also a personal favorite of mine. I especially love the flashbacks and present day bits where they get jealous of The Immortal for steeling their women.

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Not only is it funny, but I think this is a great way to close Angel and Spike's infatuation with Buffy, at least for the series (I think that Spike and Buffy do get together in the comics, but don't test me on that). I think the reason that Buffy and the boys needed to go their separate ways is that Buffy is mortal, while Angel and Spike aren't. She has a life to live and grow from, but they're basically done.

It is for the best that she moves on, and they picked the perfect time to add a story like this to the season, before the finale arc, but late enough in the run to make sure that not only does the episode have enough poignancy to pull the episode off, but to ensure that Angel and Spike have enough chemistry to make everything work. Which is another thing, although we know that Spike and Angel have a history with each other, I don't think that David Boreanaz and James Marsters ever felt especially close during their time together until we hit the last season of Angel. By then, they had more than enough time to hone their craft and pull off their potential as diametrically opposed partners.

While I'm happy with the finale, I would have liked to have seen more time with Angel and Spike together. Ah well.

Spoiler

3. This one almost made my list but just missed it, but man that last scene in the episode is amazing. It also cemented Holtz as my favorite villain in the series, besides Angelus himself.

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There couldn't have been a better way to end Darla's story than with her redemption. That early season three arc was incredibly well done.

Spoiler

1. Also on my list, albeit in the last spot, but we both agree that it's an excellent finale to the series. It's divisive, because a lot of people hate that it ends on a cliffhanger, but as Whedon said, that's kind of the point if the show, that the fight is never done, so it really fits for this series thematically. And one can't ignore that everything up until that iconic last shot is simply amazing. I'd say that it arguably came off stronger than even Buffy's finale, which also made my list for that series. It's definitely one of the best, in my eyes, and as final episodes go, really managed to nail representing what this series was always about.

[close]

I think "Not Fade Away" is the best series finale I've seen (although The Mary Tyler Moore Show's might tie with it, or at least win for a comedy series. Also keep in mind that I was halfway through season 4 of Six Feet Under when I last saw it, so I haven't seen its iconic finale yet). But yeah, a concise ending wouldn't have worked for the show. Angel has many more asses to kick, so it's fine to let the show end with a slightly incomplete note. The show also doesn't slow down too much to let us say goodbye to everyone, keeping a fast pace throughout while allowing each character to have a memorable send-off in their own way. And holy shit, Lorne!

That was fun! I think I'll do something similar to your Buffy list.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

10. I just realized my typo, but I meant to say that as viewers, we realize that he was legitimately trying to do the "right" thing, but it looks like you got the intent of what I said, regardless.

7. I absolutely love that in this series, we finally got to learn more about Angel's 100 years with a soul before meeting Buffy. As interesting as Angelus is, Angel is just as fascinating in his character history where he was actually himself.

4. God do I wish we could've gotten at least one more season out of this show, just so we could fully explore the dynamics between this pair of guys who could never get along, yet who have so much in common in very odd ways.

3. Yeah, Darla sacrificing herself like that was a great way to pay off all of her character development in the show, and it's especially great seeing as how she began as just a minor lackey of a villain in Buffy's first season. But what also really got me is Holtz's reaction to the situation. He can kill Angel right there, but when he sees Angel cradling his son in his arms, he lowers his crossbow. Some might think that he's showing sympathy for the innocent child which is partly true, but at the same moment, he has instantly contemplated how to truly take his revenge in "Angelus," by breaking Angel and forcing him to lose his family, the same thing that Angelus out on him. It just makes Holtz such a fascinating villain.

1. Yeah, it was truly a climactic conclusion in every way possible. I weep for Wesley every time, but Illyria avenging him is priceless. And that last shit of them standing in the rain ready to fight a horse of demons and a fucking dragon to the death is one of the most iconic scenes in all of television for me. That said, I'd probably pick either Breaking Bad or Monk as my personal favorite TV finales.

Oh, and as for the Wesley and Fred thing, I wasn't really a fan of it either, but at least it always made more sense than Angel and Cordelia. God am I glad that the writers never went completely through with that relationship. As for Wesley, though, I must admit that I kind of enjoyed his relationship with Lilah. It wasn't romantic, but it was still fun because of their chemistry, which was one of the few good things about season 4, and it was also pretty humorous since Wesley was going through his lone wolf bad ass phase since he'd been kicked off of the team after kidnapping Connor.