Marvel Live Action

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

The thing is, if you're willing to go the route of classic syndication style TV somewhat mixed with modern serialized narratives, then this could work. That is to have a larger overarching story that culminates in a finale, interspersed with several stand-alone episodes in-between to flesh out the supporting characters some more. People may call that dated, but I'd argue it works better than most people remember. Joss Whedon being a piece of shit aside, Buffy (at least the first five-ish seasons) and Firefly still hold up really well for that reason, IMO.

[Dr. Insomniac]

Or do 2 to 3 episode mini-arcs that have a recurring theme tying them all together by the end of the season. I wish more shows went with that route when plotting seasons.

And it's been ages since I thought about Defenders, but I remember the big problem there was the Hand were really lame bad guys. They never knew what to do with Sigourney Weaver's character, and they were too afraid to go full "wacky magic ninja" with them lest they get Foot Clan comparisons (while still making their masterplan to mine dragon bones with resurrective properties), so they end up being generic gangsters with a couple wizards in the mix, who all badly paled in comparison to the other Netflix MCU villains like Fisk, Killgrave, or Mariah. Not to mention how much they fucked up in making Elektra the final villain.

[Avaitor]

I don't know how they managed to make Jennifer Garner a better Elektra in comparison, but the shows sure did.

I always was bugged that they called this group the Defenders, since this means that we'll probably never see the comic version in the MCU and how batshit some of those comics could get. Also, was Trish even in it?

But I do agree, the Hand were weak villains and didn't fit with most of the other show's MO's. They were an especially poor use of your Sigourney Weaver.

[Dr. Insomniac]

I still kinda prefer Elodie Yung, if only because she never got a scene a dumb as this.

And yeah, to this day, I don't get why they're called "The Defenders" instead of "Heroes for Hire" or "Marvel Knights". You'd keep that name for when you're ready to make a weird Doctor Strange team-up movie, not so some street-level heroes fight magic gangsters. Somehow, MoM felt more like the comic Defenders than this show. It was also fucking ironic how in the same year The Defenders came out, a Marvel movie featuring Strange, Hulk, and Valkyrie premiered and was closer in tone to the comic than the show was.

The other problem's there was clearly a street-level version of Thanos they could have used who could challenge the entire team for over a season, it's just he was already the main villain on Daredevil, so you're left scrambling for a villain big enough for four shows' worth of main characters to team up and fight against.

[Dr. Insomniac]

So She-Hulk's premiere was all right, but definitely felt too "run-of-the-mill 00s Fox show". I know they're trying to do Ally McBeal, but Ally McBeal's shelf life was like zero so...

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

So yeah, I have seen three episodes, and She-Hulk is bad. There's no real way around it. The show is a really shallow and poorly written attempt to emulate the humor and social commentary of the comics, but without an ounce of wit or subtlety. In fact, they make the character come off as a complete asshole unintentionally like having her belittle Bruce's deep history of trauma (like being abused by his father or attempted suicide) to try and prop up Jen as a character.

Here's the thing, when a show gets labeled as woke, there are generally three camps of people with opinions on it. You have the SJW crowd that likes anything with a PC-edge about it, the ass-hats who hate the idea of anything that points out social issues of any kind in their fictional media, and everyone in between who just want a show or movie to enjoy. I'd like to believe most people fall into the third camp, but sadly it's a pretty even split as far as I can tell. At any rate, while I'm fine with a show examining gender roles, the serious lack of self-awareness that these writers have tackling this subject matter genuinely hurts to watch. It's the worst kind of writing in finding any and every excuse to prop up whoever it identifies with as being unmistakably and unequivocally morally superior to anyone and everyone that doesn't fit their ideology.

It's the type of logic where, without the slightest hint of irony or nuance of any kind, they will characterize a a guy as being chauvinistic and stupid whereas any of the characters it cares about are propped up as being infallible angels devoid of flaws. Much of the humor revolves around Jen making sweeping generalizations about other characters (some of who she barely knows) based on their social status as men and being proven completely right about them every time, and said characters are written to be so cartoonish that they don't even feel like people.

What's so annoying is that both the comics as well as earlier MCU movies actually knew how to call attention to and commentate on different subject matter without treating their core characters as flawless or talking down to the audience. This show really has lowered the bar to an immense degree in that regard.

[Dr. Insomniac]

I'm still very confused why Marvel hired some Better Call Saul writers, and put them to work on Echo instead of the show about a lawyer. Or their other show about a lawyer. She-Hulk and Daredevil could use some BCS writing.

And my "run-of-the-mill 00s Fox Show" complaint still rings true. That Megan Thee Stallion appearance felt like whenever someone like Usher or Britney would randomly guest star in a sitcom about 20 years ago. Or that time Ashanti appeared in Buffy.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I've been rather burned out on the excessively mediocre Disney Plus content for a while now which is why I have yet to finish She-Hulk (not sure if I ever will) and haven't even started Andor yet.

I only just remembered that there was a Werewolf by Night special which I decided to check out because it looked at least a bit interesting. Overall it was pretty decent. I appreciated the homage to classic Universal Monster films, was pleasantly surprised by how violent they were willing to get, and thought it was cool to see a fully realized interpretation of Man-Thing. Best of all, it's less than an hour long. Amazing how much more entertaining something can be when allowed to play out for as long as it's concept supports rather than being arbitrarily stretched or condensed to meet a very specific episode count.

[Dr. Insomniac]

Yeah, I've just been watching She-Hulk through react channels on YouTube. Heard good things about Andor though.

[Avaitor]

I thought Werewolf by Night was more interesting than appealing. I liked all of the cues it took, but I can't say that it felt as rewarding as I'd like.

Although it's better than the whole of She-Hulk, which was honestly kind of dumb throughout. Although I like how the finale lead into the show's use of fourth wall breaking.

[Dr. Insomniac]

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

This makes perfect sense to me and I now consider it canon to Zdarsky's run.

[talonmalon333]

I actually rewatched the Marvel Netflix shows when they came to Disney Plus. More accurately, I rewatched what I saw it was new, and saw for the first time the shows/seasons I had missed the first time around. I'll admit, part of my choice to do this was because I was excited seeing Murdock in No Way Home, and Fisk in Hawkeye.

Watching these shows now, I'm reminded of why I liked them back then, but I also remembered why I gave up on them in the first place. Daredevil was still great. I'd say easily the best Marvel show. I'd also say Jessica Jones season 1 is the best Marvel season (beating out the best seasons of Daredevil). But beyond that, Luke Cage lost itself after Cottonmouth, and I was mostly bored by Iron Fist and Punisher. The Defenders could've been better.

As for the Disney Plus originals, I really enjoyed a few of them, but the rest ranged from passable to forgettable. I do think making the shows required viewing for the movies is a bit too much for the Marvel universe? I always accepted things like "You need to see 20 movies before Infinity War comes out" but now we have a Doctor Strange movie acting as a sequel to WandaVision. In the past, someone could fall off the Marvel universe for years, but then easily catch up on them in time for a new Avengers movie by just dedicating a few nights to the movies they missed. However, I feel like anyone who has fallen off Marvel between Black Widow and would feel like getting caught up is too daunting, to fully understand the currently storylines.

That's just my take on it. I'm still on top of pretty much everything, including She-Hulk.

[Dr. Insomniac]

It's strange too since the movies can be inconsistent about it. Like Doctor Strange 2's trying to pay off unresolved plot points from Wandavision, while Love and Thunder spends a lot of time recapping and explaining the first 3 Thor movies and Endgame, almost redundantly so. There's either too much hand-holding or not enough.

And not MCU, but I just saw that Legion was on Disney+. I can get Logan or Daredevil popping up there, but having Legion there feels so weird. Wonder what that's gonna be like for any kids or casuals thinking it's just a regular X-Men show.

[Avaitor]

Adding the TV shows in really is just too much, and I'm noticing that it's turning off some of the MCU fans I know in real life. Some were fine to consider Endgame the end of their time as Marvel watchers, at least at the front of the line, while others are increasingly feeling burned out by underwhelming series and movies. I'm mostly with them, but I still think WandaVision mostly works, enjoyed most of Loki, and thought Ms. Marvel was largely fun.

And I largely agree with you on the Netflix shows, Talon, except that I like the Punisher's first season. The second was mediocre, though.