Wrestling (WWE, etc.)

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

"Best of all time" is not really an answerable question because ultimately it would be subjective.

As you guys know, Shawn Michaels is my personal favorite wrestler of all time, and that's for a combination of his character and nearly unrivaled technical skill in the ring. That said, most casual fans of wrestling don't appreciate him as much, as he has never quite had the star power of wrestlers like The Undertaker, The Rock, Stone Cold Steve Austin, or Hulk Hogan (who, despite my personal disdain for the guy, is clearly the most iconic wrestler of all time). This is of course despite the fact that he (along with HHH) were really responsible for kick-starting the Attitude-era with the formation of DX. People instead tend to give Austin the credit, and while he helped carry the era forward, he's not really the one who got it off of the ground in the first place.

Still, as for best of all time, I don't think that I could give any one single wrestler that title. I'd say that I do consider Shawn Michaels to be in the same league as the best wrestlers who ever worked for the WWE, though.

[talonmalon333]

You knew I didn't mean objectively. I know you did.

However, I was going to break it down to the point that it's too hard a question to answer, anyway. To me, Shawn Michaels is the best technical WWE wrestler (with Bret Hart right up there with him), and The Undertaker is the best WWE character.

Also, I think one could argue that Hogan isn't the most iconic. I mean, I suppose he is in the wrestling picture, but in the grand scheme of things, I think The Rock is a more known star for successfully branching out from wrestling. In that sense, he's achieved what Hogan wanted but couldn't get. Still, I suppose you could still say Hogan is the most iconic WWE wrestler.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I believe that Hogan is more iconic world-wide, since he has wrestled in other countries earlier in his career (including Japan), whereas The Rock has either matched him or overtaken him in popularity in some of the bigger Western countries.

And Bret Hart is easily one of the greatest technical wrestlers of all-time. I consider him to be HBK's equal, and that's why they had such a great rivalry with each other. That said, the reason that I ultimately pick Shawn is because he came back for nearly ten years after his back surgery and was still in his prime. Bret Hart unfortunately had to end his career a bit too early, IMO. I really would have loved to see him wrestle matches against people like Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, and The Rock. But I completely understand why he had such a grudge against Vince for so long and completely refused to work with or for the WWE for a whole entire decade after his initial falling out with the company, combined with the Hart family's bitterness toward the WWE after the tragic death of Bret's brother Owen who died from an accident during a stunt that he was performing while under contract with the WWE.

By the time that he came back for some appearances, he was long-retired out of practice and only managed to appear in what in all honesty can only be described as two pathetically bad matches.

That said, his legacy still stands, and he's still one of my top five favorite wrestlers of all time.

[talonmalon333]

I think that, at this point, some wrestlers that would be in my top five favorites would be The Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, and Mick Foley. Some that would be in my top ten would include Stone Cold Steven Austin, Randy Savage, Razor Ramon, and more.

I'm sure another reason for animosity between Bret Hart and Vince was the Montreal Screwjob. However, I do think they have since made up. As far as wrestling goes, it's obviously too late since he's much older now, but he does still make appearances here and there, largely because his niece, Natalya Hart, another graduate of the Hart Dungeon, is currently wrestling. It's always nice to see him. To me, wrestlers like Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels embody why the Intercontinental Championship Belt was once so meaningful, especially when the world title was held by Hogan.

[talonmalon333]

I do think it might be time for The Undertaker to retire. I mean, it's always very nice to see him. But he's really getting older and older. His most recent match with Lesnar, at Hell in a Cell 2015, was great. But his match with Lesnar at WrestleMania 30, when the streak was broken, was kind of hard to watch because he just seemed so tired out. And, out of his three most recent matches with Lesnar, he collapsed and was taken to the hospital after at least two of them. Now, when he wrestles, people are legitimately worried about him.

[talonmalon333]

Speaking of Hogan, I am hearing some people talk about the idea of Hulk Hogan eventually being allowed back into WWE, believing that all of the heat currently on him will blow over.

Personally, I think they shouldn't do this. I mean, Hogan has been an issue for so long now. The incident from this past summer was just the final nail in the coffin. Not to mention... does anyone really want him back at this point?

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

You'd be surprised how many idiots are willing to overlook terrible things done by their favorite idols just to get some cheap, nostalgic satisfaction.

For instance, did you know that there are actually people deluded enough in thinking that the WWE are terrible for obscuring Chris Benoit's name from being associated with their company, and some people have even said that he deserves to be added to their hall of fame?

The fact of the matter is, yes, Benoit was extremely talented and a superb professional wrestler. He also went psychotic and murdered his own wife and kid before committing suicide. What he did was horrible, and tragically cost two innocent lives. WWE has done their share of questionable and shady business practices in the past, but distancing themselves from Benoit's name is not one of them. They would have to be absolutely crazy to endorse the legacy of a murderer in any way. That there are some fans out there who can't see or understand this absolutely sickens me.

So, in that way, it's no surprise that some idiots would be willing to overlook all of Hogan's terrible faults just because of some personal desire to relive their nostalgia of his golden years, which haven't existed for a long time and never will again. For all sensible people, the image of who Hogan used to be has been destroyed by that of what he really is.

[talonmalon333]

I agree with all of that. And it reminds me of something I read that I agree with 100%. If WWE were to even consider letting Hogan come back... is there anything else they should know about? Think about it. Bits and pieces of unflattering facts about Hogan have cropped up over the years. For all we know, there are still plenty of things that could be revealed about him that would make WWE look even worse if they let him back in. There is just absolutely no way WWE should ever consider letting Hogan return.

Plus, even putting aside the horrible things about Hogan... what would bringing him back at this point in time contribute? Like, would he really be a draw at this point in time if he were to appear in a pay-per-view? No one is clamoring for him. And it's not like people working in the company want him back, because I feel like almost everyone who has experience with Hogan has nothing good to say about him.

Hogan was once an icon, and Benoit is arguably one of the best wrestlers of all time. But WWE was right to distance themselves from both.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Chris Benoit was a great wrestler and one of the best, but there is no way you can avoid the elephant in the room when talking about him. He killed his family and himself. There is no way to ever avoid associating him with that. WWE distancing themselves from him is one of their smarter PR moves. There's no positives for being associated with him.

Hogan is, like, really? The guy's peak was so long ago in popularity that it's hard to imagine any point to bringing him back. Hulkamania and the Hollywood era are long over and they're not coming back. Just ride off into the sunset and try to rebuild your name away from the spotlight instead. That should take a lot of his time.

At some point you just have to know that enough is enough and it's time to move on.

[talonmalon333]

Hogan wasn't even a good wrestler, anyway. Seriously, his finisher was a leg drop.

He was just a good character and symbol.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

To be fair, I've read that he initially had more technical skills back when he was wrestling in Japan and the "Hogan" character did not yet exist. He seemingly dropped them in favor of generic "power" moves which appealed more to a Western audience. Not that I'm sticking up for Hogan. I'm merely just pointing out that it's not unheard of for a pro-wrestler to only utilize a fraction of their full skill-set when they get really popular being associated with a certain persona.

For instance, everyone thinks of Stone Cold Steve Austin as a brawler style wrestler with some good moves but not much technical skill. That may be true for later in his career, but back when he was just plain old Steve Austin and had a very different character (and hair), he could show off some very impressive technical skills. Just check out his match with Ricky Steamboat back when he worked for WCW, for example. Hell, his first ring-name for when he started his WWE career was Ringmaster, which he supposedly got based on his excellent form and wide array of legitimate wrestling moves. Once his Stone Cold persona started catching on, though, he began phasing out many other moves and focused on a more violent and seemingly undisciplined style of moves, but even then he couldn't completely hide his refined skills, which he often slipped out during matches from time to time.

Many other wrestlers in general also reportedly use a bunch of other moves in house-show matches that don't make it onto television broadcast, including John Cena, apparently. The idea supposedly being that the WWE marketing department wants each wrestler to be easily distinguishable from the others, so instructing them to only stick to certain moves prevents any one wrestler's repertoire of skills from overlapping too much with that of another, and thus no two wrestlers feel too similar.

That's typically why you won't usually see two contemporary wrestlers utilizing the same submission hold, among other moves. For instance, The Sharpshooter was Bret Hart's hold before he left, and then The Rock adopted it afterward. Shawn Michaels and HHH inherited the Figure-Four from Ric Flair. Daniel Bryan's Yes Lock was basically lifted straight from Chris Benoit's Crippler Cross-Face. And John Cena took William Reagal's STF, except he has no idea how to do it right. When Regal did it properly, it looked painful as hell. It just looks mildly annoying to the other guy whenever Cena does it, IMO.