Ace Attorney

[Spark Of Spirit]

Apollo Justice is well known to be the sloppiest written game in the series, so I'll just say if it wasn't answered in Dual Destinies then it probably was just a writer oversight. There's a reason in DD that they removed a lot of the things that game brought to the series including OOC Phoenix.

As for that:

Spoiler

Miss-characterization. It's something he would never do or even think of doing in any other game. He was poorly written in AJ as a whole.

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[talonmalon333]

I imagine that spoiler tag contains Dual Destinies content, so I'll hold off on opening it.

OOC Phoenix?

Also, overall, something I really like about Wright as a character is that, frankly, he's not that good of a lawyer. Well, by the end of the original trilogy he is, but for most of the series, he mostly gets by his cases by spouting out nonsense that just happen to make sense later on (I remember one case where he's asked to recreate a crime scene and he basically just scrambled his way through it). He just barely squeezes out of almost all tough situations by crazy luck, and because he has the Fey sisters and Edgeworth doing half of his work for him. I remember even...

Spoiler

at the end of the third game's final case, Godot even called him out on this and then challenged him to solve the case on his own

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... But yeah, in many ways, Wright is like the Yusuke of Ace Attorney. Despite being outclassed by Edgeworth and having all the odds stacked against him, something happens that allows him to barely win out in the end. And it makes his development quite satisfying.

[Spark Of Spirit]

It wasn't spoilers for DD. Just a criticism of the worst part of AJ, being Phoenix's characterization.

I actually think the first case in AJ is the best one in the game and is surprisingly clever, but the major weakness is that they make Phoenix way too clever and jaded for it to work. Basically everything he does in AJ is something he wouldn't do in any other game.

What makes him a good character is that he's a bit naive, observant, and never backs down. What he isn't is clever, knowledgeable, or good at subtlety. When everyone else thinks they have it figured out, he turns it around on them by showing how far off the mark they are by simply looking for the truth in any situation. It's endearing, which is why he doesn't work at all in AJ.

But I think you give him a bit too little credit. He gets to all those points where he needs help on his own and by himself. That's why he has assistants to help him out in the first place. The prosecutor has the police and public opinion on their side, while the defense is on their own. The reason why Phoenix doesn't look good all the time is because he goes up against some of the best prosecutors in the profession like Edgeworth, Von Karma(s), Godot, and so on. He rolls over Payne like it's nothing, because he isn't very good. But most of the time he's up against the best, so he looks worse at what he does than he actually is.

[Peanutbutter]

It wasn't spoilers for DD. Just a criticism of the worst part of AJ, being Phoenix's characterization.

I actually think the first case in AJ is the best one in the game and is surprisingly clever, but the major weakness is that they make Phoenix way too clever and jaded for it to work. Basically everything he does in AJ is something he wouldn't do in any other game.

What makes him a good character is that he's a bit naive, observant, and never backs down. What he isn't is clever, knowledgeable, or good at subtlety. When everyone else thinks they have it figured out, he turns it around on them by showing how far off the mark they are by simply looking for the truth in any situation. It's endearing, which is why he doesn't work at all in AJ.

But I think you give him a bit too little credit. He gets to all those points where he needs help on his own and by himself. That's why he has assistants to help him out in the first place. The prosecutor has the police and public opinion on their side, while the defense is on their own. The reason why Phoenix doesn't look good all the time is because he goes up against some of the best prosecutors in the profession like Edgeworth, Von Karma(s), Godot, and so on. He rolls over Payne like it's nothing, because he isn't very good. But most of the time he's up against the best, so he looks worse at what he does than he actually is.

I didn't really mind his characterization in that game, because I took it as him trying to play by Glavin's rules without being as underhanded, plus it had been seven years. I will say I'm glad he's back to being an attorney and everything you said was true, except him not being clever. He's clever, he just has to be more careful with his deductions because of how stacked the deck always is against him.


His flaws are a big part of why Phoenix himself is one of the best characters in the series. What's also great about the games is the impressive Rogues Gallery Phoenix has. There's Von Kharma, Damon Gant, Matt Engarde and Shelly De Killer, Dahlia Hawthorne and Morgan Fey, Furio Tigre, Luke Atmey, Mimi Miney and that's not even getting into Edgeworth, Apollo and Dual Destinies that also have more good villains.

[talonmalon333]

It wasn't spoilers for DD. Just a criticism of the worst part of AJ, being Phoenix's characterization.

I actually think the first case in AJ is the best one in the game and is surprisingly clever, but the major weakness is that they make Phoenix way too clever and jaded for it to work. Basically everything he does in AJ is something he wouldn't do in any other game.

What makes him a good character is that he's a bit naive, observant, and never backs down. What he isn't is clever, knowledgeable, or good at subtlety. When everyone else thinks they have it figured out, he turns it around on them by showing how far off the mark they are by simply looking for the truth in any situation. It's endearing, which is why he doesn't work at all in AJ.

But I think you give him a bit too little credit. He gets to all those points where he needs help on his own and by himself. That's why he has assistants to help him out in the first place. The prosecutor has the police and public opinion on their side, while the defense is on their own. The reason why Phoenix doesn't look good all the time is because he goes up against some of the best prosecutors in the profession like Edgeworth, Von Karma(s), Godot, and so on. He rolls over Payne like it's nothing, because he isn't very good. But most of the time he's up against the best, so he looks worse at what he does than he actually is.

You like the cleverness of Apollo Justice's first case. But all of that comes from Wright's actions in the case, which you didn't like.

I don't think Wright doesn't work as a character in Apollo Justice. I mean, he really doesn't do that much. And when he does, it's when he's had a lot of time to strategize and plan. Plus, it is many years later. I think they wanted to show that, after so much time has passed, he hasn't lost his touch and is in fact better than he ever was before. I really can't defend him forging evidence, though. That's such an extreme action that he should never take. All I can think of to explain it is that he wasn't in the same emotional and logical state of mind that he used to be. When he lost his badge, I remember that characters who witnessed it claimed that he was surprisingly calm at the time, but I'd figure it tore him up a lot inside. I think he even said that it was a dark era of his life. Being a lawyer was everything to him, and suddenly he lost that. It probably didn't help that he then had to go seven years without it and without a real job. Wright is an upbeat guy but he's been one to hide his pain in the past.

As for my favorite Apollo Justice case, I'd go with the last one. I loved going into the past and playing as Wright and learning what went down. It was also just a bonus that they brought back the original graphics and soundtrack for those parts.

I think a good way to compare Wright and Edgeworth is that Wright is more creative, while Edgeworth is more logical.

[Spark Of Spirit]

The cleverness comes from the writing. If they would have swapped Phoenix with any other character it would have had the same result.

[talonmalon333]

His flaws are a big part of why Phoenix himself is one of the best characters in the series. What's also great about the games is the impressive Rogues Gallery Phoenix has. There's Von Kharma, Damon Gant, Matt Engarde and Shelly De Killer, Dahlia Hawthorne and Morgan Fey, Furio Tigre, Luke Atmey, Mimi Miney and that's not even getting into Edgeworth, Apollo and Dual Destinies that also have more good villains.

Favorite protagonists in the series
1. Phoenix Wright
2. Miles Edgeworth
3. Maya Fey
4. Godot
5. Mia Fey
6. Franzeska von Karma
7. Dick Gumshoe
8. Ema Skye
9. Kay Faraday
10. Apollo Justice

Favorite antagonists
1. Dahlia Hawthorne
2. Manfred von Karma
3. Damon Gant
4. Shih-Na
5. Kristoph Gavin
6. Shelly de Killer
7. Mimi Miney
8. Matt Engarde
9. Morgan Fey
10. Viola Cadaverini

My top three are pretty concrete on both lists.

And, just for fun, I'll round out my list of my favorite cases in the series.

1. Bridge to the Turnabout (Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: Trials and Tribulations)
2. Rise from the Ashes (Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney)
3. Turnabout Goodbyes (Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney)
4. Farewell, My Turnabout (Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: Justice for All)
5. Turnabout Beginnings (Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: Trials and Tribulations)
6. Turnabout Succession (Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney)
7. Turnabout Memories (Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: Trials and Tribulations)
8. Turnabout Reminiscence (Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth)
9. Reunion, and Turnabout (Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: Justice for All)
10. Turnabout Trump (Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney)

I could list my favorite games, but I want to beat the rest of the games, first. I'll just say that Trials and Tribulations is my favorite, as I think most would agree.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Favorite protagonists in the series
1. Phoenix Wright
2. Miles Edgeworth
3. Apollo Justice
4. Maya Fey
5. Mia Fey
6. Dick Gumshoe
7. Athena Cykes
8. Simon Blackquill
9. Kay Faraday
10. Franzeska von Karma

Favorite antagonists
1. Dahlia Hawthorne
2. Manfred von Karma
3. Damon Gant
4. Shelly de Killer
5. Morgan Fey
6. Kristoph Gavin
7. Mimi Miney
8. Matt Engarde
9. Furio Tigre
10. Luke Atmey

Your favorites are about the same as mine. But I haven't played Dual Destinies enough times to know which would affect my favorites. I do like Apollo (he was epic in this game), Athena, and Blackquill a lot, though.

[talonmalon333]

No mention of Godot? I think he's both one of the most interesting and fun characters of the bunch. And...

Spoiler

the final battle against him in the end of the third game was excellent, even if it awkwardly transitioned from the Dahlia battle which also felt like the end of the game thus making the momentum a bit weird.

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I do think it's almost impossible to not have Wright and Dahlia at #1 on their lists.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I found it hard to list him as either antagonist or protagonist since he's technically both. But I do think he's a great character. Though outside of a handful of characters, I don't think there are any AA characters I outright dislike.

Not to spoil Dual Destinies, but it really pushed Apollo forward as one of the best characters in the series. He really comes into his own here.

[talonmalon333]

That is true. Godot also has some of the best lines of dialogue in the series. As for Justice, I like him but, in a way, I almost feel like his game belongs more to Wright than to him. The whole story of Apollo Justice seems to revolve on Wright's past and the efforts he goes through to solve those mysteries, with Justice necessary because Wright needs someone to be the attorney. So I look forward to him in the newest game.

I should change my #10 on my villain list. I remembered that character barely qualified as a villain in the end. Morgan Fey should also be a bit higher. She's a character who I think retroactively becomes better after her case in Justice for All, since she plays a strong role at the end of the trilogy.

[Peanutbutter]

I found it hard to list him as either antagonist or protagonist since he's technically both. But I do think he's a great character. Though outside of a handful of characters, I don't think there are any AA characters I outright dislike.

Not to spoil Dual Destinies, but it really pushed Apollo forward as one of the best characters in the series. He really comes into his own here.

Agreed. Apollo was fine in his own game, but he was better in DD because he was more fleshed out. I think his fast friendship with Athena helped a bit in that regard.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I also didn't want to list a certain character in Dual Destinies in case I spoiled it for anyone. Really, I think it might be near the top for best game in the series.

[talonmalon333]

My favorite is Trials and Tribulations because I think it has the best writing, and every case in the game is above average if not superb. I also really like how tightly tied together most of the cases are.

[Spark Of Spirit]

T&T is the best, no doubt. T&T, the original, and DD, are easily my favorites. Though from what I hear, Investigations 2 is near the top as well.

I sure do hope I get to play it someday.