Hunter X Hunter (Original + Remake)

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Stuff like that is really tame by Togashi's standards. You should see what the guy does to actual supporting characters rather than nameless animals. Its the main thing that lead me to believe that Togashi went mentally insane somewhere along the line (sort of like Frank Miller, though to be fair even Togashi doesn't seem nearly as self-indulgent as him).

[Spark Of Spirit]

Is that the Chimera Ant arc?

You ain't seen nothing yet.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

So, if any of you guys want a perfect example of why I can't stand at least 99% of HXH's fan-base (even more-so than the annoying fan-bases for actual bad shows), here it is.

Rud represents the 99% of HXH fans, and I represent the 1%, with Nobodyman being more of a neutral party.

Rud's (the 99%'s) argument in a nutshell:

Togashi is a genious and flawless. His work is dark and edgy and deep, and the gore and hyper-violence is completely necessary to make the series better. It makes it more REALISTIC, and thus more MATURE, which automatically means that its BETTER. Saying otherwise means that you're just being childish and want's an idealistic generic shonen.

Nobodyman's argument in a nutshell:

Gore doesn't make a series good. Writing can be good without it, and manga being a visual medium doesn't add any weight to your argument. The series still doesn't need to be hyperviolent and gory. Its just disturbing and pointless.

My argument in a nutshell:

Dude, I just want an entertaining series. Over-the-top hyperviolence and killing off good guys for shock value isn't entertaining.

Thus ends my argument. Of course since its me I find a way to ramble on the same message for entire paragraphs, but still, that's essentially all I'm saying. Well, that....and that Rud (essentially a representative for 99% of HXH fans) is a dick.

[LumRanmaYasha]

I just want an entertaining series.

That's all I ask for when it comes to television myself, since at the end of the day that's all that matters. Of course, people will always have differing views on what is entertaining and what isn't', but at the end of the day a well-written story speaks for itself. And I agree that Togashi's overuse of gory violence for shock value was not written in the best way possible, and detracts from the experience a small bit.

Honestly, every fandom in existence annoys me to some degree. They tend to overly praise their favorite show while ignoring it's  flaws (and everything has a flaw to some degree) no matter how reasonable the argument is. Like, I dislike the One Piece fandom for thinking it's the best thing ever made and infallible, but I obviously don't agree with the people who think it's total shit either. More often then not, really avid fans become trolls of other works they personally detest. The defensiveness and stubbornness of fandoms has honestly disillusioned me quite a bit with opinions I hear over the net. I try not to get worked up about negative opinions or opinions I don't agree with anymore because it's rather pointless; you are not going to convince someone who loves something very dearly that they are wrong and attacking what they like is just going to lead to a lot of unpleasant conversations. So I try not to seem like a dick about disagreeing with other people's opinions and try to be respectful of them. I don't always manage to keep myself from getting out of line, but I don't attack people for liking something I don't like or having a opinion I don't share. I try to respectfully disagree and not bash.

Probably the fandom I dislike the least is the Bobobo fandom, because it (in many respects unfortunately) doesn't have all that many fans in the first place so real dickish members haven't manifested much if at all.

[Spark Of Spirit]

There is nothing realistic about HxH. Even by the standards of shonen it's completely unrealistic because that's the way Togashi wants it.

The fact that the anime cut a lot of the gore from his work and still keeps the general story without skipping a beat should prove it's completely needless.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

There is nothing realistic about HxH. Even by the standards of shonen it's completely unrealistic because that's the way Togashi wants it.

The fact that the anime cut a lot of the gore from his work and still keeps the general story without skipping a beat should prove it's completely needless.

Well, on that note I'd actually say HXH is probably more believable (rather than realistic) than most shonen in how un-idealistic it is and in how, discounting a few really stupid exceptions, characters generally have consequences for their actions, and a lot of things don't go their way at the most inopportune times, and they just have to learn to deal with it and move on. On that end, I think the series is leaps and bounds above most shonen stuff.

In nature, though, yeah, the series can be completely ridiculous at times. It is important to note that, as flawed as this series is, I absolutely LOVE its strengths, which is why my enjoyment of the series has endured. Oh, no doubt Togashi tests my patience and my sanity with way too many of his writing decisions, but at the same time, I'm a glass-half full kind of a guy, so I tend to focus more on what I like about a series than what bothers me about it.

That said, my biggest problem with the HXH franchise in general has never actually been anything internal to the series, but more-so how much I detest the majority of its fan-base that likes to pretend its perfect. That's just a load of shit.

[Spark Of Spirit]

There is nothing realistic about HxH. Even by the standards of shonen it's completely unrealistic because that's the way Togashi wants it.

The fact that the anime cut a lot of the gore from his work and still keeps the general story without skipping a beat should prove it's completely needless.

Well, on that note I'd actually say HXH is probably more believable (rather than realistic) than most shonen in how un-idealistic it is and in how, discounting a few really stupid exceptions, characters generally have consequences for their actions, and a lot of things don't go their way at the most inopportune times, and they just have to learn to deal with it and move on. On that end, I think the series is leaps and bounds above most shonen stuff.

In nature, though, yeah, the series can be completely ridiculous at times. It is important to note that, as flawed as this series is, I absolutely LOVE its strengths, which is why my enjoyment of the series has endured. Oh, no doubt Togashi tests my patience and my sanity with way too many of his writing decisions, but at the same time, I'm a glass-half full kind of a guy, so I tend to focus more on what I like about a series than what bothers me about it.

That said, my biggest problem with the HXH franchise in general has never actually been anything internal to the series, but more-so how much I detest the majority of its fan-base that likes to pretend its perfect. That's just a load of shit.

Maybe that's why it attracts fans who love needless violence? If that's all you're looking for, then HxH is probably the greatest shonen ever made next to Fist Of The North Star. But if you have standards beyond that, then it's hard to argue how often it misses the mark when it should be hitting it dead on.

My problem is that the best parts of HxH echo a strength in plotting that I know he has (and that he had in the first 3/4 of YYH) which get promptly overshadowed because hey we haven't seen Hisoka throw a card in somebody's brain for awhile let's get on that. Hiei was a cold blooded killer and I can count on one hand the amount of times he indiscriminately killed before he, y'know, grew as a character. HxH has glaring weaknesses that really shouldn't be glossed over because they shouldn't exist.

It's the same when we lament what happened to Watsuki after Rurouni Kenshin. It's because they're capable of more.

[LumRanmaYasha]

Well, on that note I'd actually say HXH is probably more believable (rather than realistic) than most shonen in how un-idealistic it is and in how, discounting a few really stupid exceptions, characters generally have consequences for their actions, and a lot of things don't go their way at the most inopportune times, and they just have to learn to deal with it and move on.

I have to concur and say this is one of the principal reasons I think Hunter X Hunter is a great read. In most stories, not just "shonen," many characters major or minor tend to get off scot free for dangerous, risky, and stupid actions or survive ridiculous circumstances without cause. In this manga, every decision the characters make is practically life or death, and a wrong move can result in a quick, ruthless death or in many cases a whole lot of pain. Contrast this to manga like Dragonball and One Piece where the protagonist's more or less act first without really thinking things through or survive things they really shouldn't (and in Dragonball's case come back to life because death is cheap in that series). Mind you, I love those manga and actually prefer them over Hunter X Hunter on my personal favorites list, but it's true that Togashi for the most part plots this series very smartly and has his heroes struggle to simply survive using both wit and power, yet also not having them win all the time or having things go the right way for them conveniently, if much at all.

That said, my biggest problem with the HXH franchise in general has never actually been anything internal to the series, but more-so how much I detest the majority of its fan-base that likes to pretend its perfect. That's just a load of shit.

Every fandom is like this. 

I mean, the most popular series more so than the more obscure, but still most fans in general like to pretend that their favorite series is flawless and above criticism. I think the ironic thing is that a lot of the time these hyperactive fandoms do more harm than good in promoting their series and give it a bad rap. I'm saving a particular example for a very unpopular opinion that I will be writing a fair amount about in that particular thread one of these days, but for right now from my own experience I can use Puella Magi Madoka Magica as an example. I kept hearing about the series and it's fans were raving like lunatcis about how great it is that I eventually got annoyed and developed a negative attitude towards the series before even having watched it. Once I gave it a chance, though, I saw it was a legitimately good show and really got into it. For a while I considered it a super top favorite, although another re-watch combined with viewings of certain other shows shifted my opinion of it slightly down, yet still highly favorable. For the most part, though, I still don't care much for it's more rabid fans and can agree that it is rather overrated as well. I think the best sort of fan is one who loves their favorite shows very much but yet still can reasonably discuss it's flaws and shortcomings while still generally being positive and in love with it. With most of the series I like, I feel I can discuss both their strengths and weaknesses, which I think I certainly should be able to do without attacking the those whose opinions I don't agree with or don't find enjoyment  in the same things I like.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I just thought I'd clarify that I don't get upset when characters die for making a wrong choice. I know that's a big theme with this story- my issue is how he's been going about it by using mass murder and going one shade short of Elfen Lied to kill supporting characters in pointlessly graphic ways.

We didn't need so many scenes devoted to the butchering of random people in the Chimera Ant arc. It added nothing to the story and tremendously broke the pacing when the thing is it was not something he used to do to build tension. That's a trick a lesser writer relies on because it's incredibly easy to do.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I just thought I'd clarify that I don't get upset when characters die for making a wrong choice. I know that's a big theme with this story- my issue is how he's been going about it by using mass murder and going one shade short of Elfen Lied to kill supporting characters in pointlessly graphic ways.

We didn't need so many scenes devoted to the butchering of random people in the Chimera Ant arc. It added nothing to the story and tremendously broke the pacing when the thing is it was not something he used to do to build tension. That's a trick a lesser writer relies on because it's incredibly easy to do.

This 100%.

It just hurts so much BECAUSE its Togashi writing it. On the whole, he's NOT a lesser writer, yet in the Chimera Ant arc, he so often takes the path of a lesser writer. To me, the pointless manslaughter in the Chimera Ant arc is far worse than ANYTHING in the Greed Island arc. That arc was pretty stale but it was also harmless and didn't actually do anything to piss me off. The first third of the Chimera Ant arc still gets me to question whether Togashi has been all there or not in the past few years. I mean, he still has a lot of his trademark brilliance in that arc, but there are also a lot of writing decisions he makes that IMO are borderline, if not downright, insane.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I just thought I'd clarify that I don't get upset when characters die for making a wrong choice. I know that's a big theme with this story- my issue is how he's been going about it by using mass murder and going one shade short of Elfen Lied to kill supporting characters in pointlessly graphic ways.

We didn't need so many scenes devoted to the butchering of random people in the Chimera Ant arc. It added nothing to the story and tremendously broke the pacing when the thing is it was not something he used to do to build tension. That's a trick a lesser writer relies on because it's incredibly easy to do.

This 100%.

It just hurts so much BECAUSE its Togashi writing it. On the whole, he's NOT a lesser writer, yet in the Chimera Ant arc, he so often takes the path of a lesser writer. To me, the pointless manslaughter in the Chimera Ant arc is far worse than ANYTHING in the Greed Island arc. That arc was pretty stale but it was also harmless and didn't actually do anything to piss me off. The first third of the Chimera Ant arc still gets me to question whether Togashi has been all there or not in the past few years. I mean, he still has a lot of his trademark brilliance in that arc, but there are also a lot of writing decisions he makes that IMO are borderline, if not downright, insane.

That's why I say that Greed Island (despite all my issues with it) is not the series low point. It may be rather disposable and adds little to the story, but at least it is decently written and constructed. When he re-introduced those early characters only to slaughter them graphically I won't lie I almost considered dropping the whole thing. The stretch from first meeting the Chimera Ants up until Knuckle's introduction might be the worst thing he's done since the YYH manga's Three Kings arc. I literally hated every single thing he did and how he approached doing it.

It eventually got better and dipped and see-sawed until the ending which was rather nice compared to everything... but it hurt the arc a lot. It was too long, it wasn't executed all that well (except when he focused on Knuckle, Shoot, Morau, or Killua) and a lot of potentially decent ideas were never really pursued. It feels like a misfire that only gets by because some core moments aren't infected with whatever he was on when he wrote the arc.

I'm not kidding when I say that if Knuckle had not been introduced when he did I would have totally dropped it and never looked back.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I wasn't really on the verge of dropping it, myself, and I don't think that every single thing he did in the first 3rd pissed me off, but I was certainly losing all of my faith in the series and Togashi while reading the beginning of that arc (I'd....still honestly take it over something like Bleach or post-DOD HSDK, though; I just can't stand those series in a much worse way). The current anime is doing its best to capture the good ideas that Togashi had going early on while trying to at least add some weight to some of the early characters. It still doesn't fix the problem, but it makes things much more bearable for me.

When I stop to think about it, though, its almost like Togashi has a split personality, or as if 2 entirely different people have taken turns working on the series under his name, in reality. On the one hand, I'll always see and admire the guy who wrote everything in YYH up to the end of the Chapter Black arc, as well as the York New City arc of HXH, and its other good arcs as well. On the other hand, there is also this other guy I see who I can't stand, as he's the one who wrote the absolute trash that was the Three Kings arc in the manga, and he's responsible for the travesty that is the worst part of the Chimera Ant arc, and other bad parts of HXH in general. When you compare Togashi's good quality work to his bad stuff, it really does seem like 2 completely different authors with different styles wrote them.

[Spark Of Spirit]

It's probably the same side that keeps taking hiatuses, too. Usually authors only take them when they're sick or out of ideas and given the amount of time he spent on this one arc it makes me think that he was not just lazy at the time. Whenever he gets lazy (like he did in a chunk of Greed Island, Three Kings arc, and a chunk of the last one) he seems to simply not care whatsoever about his own story. It's a shame because when he isn't lazy, he's mighty talented.

I still think that Hiramaru in Bakuman is based on him. It definitely would explain a lot. 

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Holy shit, I never thought about that, but I think you're right. Granted that Hiramaru's shtick was with comedy (it was heavily implied to be fairly mean-spirited comedy at that, though ), but yeah, that describes Togashi in a nutshell. If the guy really is lazy, though, then its probably a good thing that he takes all of those hiatuses. Just imagine if he didn't and the entire series turned out as bad as Greed Island, or even the first 3rd of the Chimera Ant arc.

Personally I'm just going to convince myself that my split-personality theory is right, though. I really can't see a calm and collected person writing some of the crap that Togashi ended up churning out, yet also writing some of the most brilliant story arcs in all of shonen manga. It just baffles me too much.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

As many complaints as I have about this series, fucking awesome scenes like this remind me of why I like it. That's just one of those parts where I enjoy it for the shallowest of reasons: I just like seeing bad-ass stuff happening. I wish I could have found the scene in English, but since its only from yesterday's episode, I had to make do. Either way, the dialogue isn't as important as the bad-ass level in this case.

This scene is basically HXH's equivalent of the Hiei vs. Makintaro scene from YYH. Anyone who's seen YYH would know what I'm talking about, here.