Favorite Games Ever (Besides Ninja Gaiden, Obviously)

[Kiddington]

I didn't really mind Wing Fortress, but it was wayyyyy too easy for a final, before-the-boss type stage. I guess with Metropolis being so overly long and difficult, it kinda makes up for that... but still.

I really do love the music in Metropolis, and I'd even go as far to say that if it weren't a 3-act stage (the 3rd act just drags on far too long), I probably wouldn't hate it that much. The teleportation pods, conveyer belts, and all the little gimmicky stuff like that is kinda cool, and it was large level with a lot of exploration. Probably the thing that really pissed me off about it were the badniks, though. The praying mantis, the crab... and lest I not forget, those idiotic little starfish bots that would explode when you step near them. I HATE those things.

Everything else you mentioned is pretty bad, though. Aquatic Ruin is a mediocre excuse for a level, and pales heavily in comparison to Labyrinth and Hydrocity, as far as water levels go. And the less said about Oil Ocean, the better; still can't believe they dropped Hidden Palace for this (although, I do disagree about the music; I kinda liked it, tbh).

[Spark Of Spirit]

People always complain about the barrel in Carnival Night, but the one that always got me was that floor booster in Wing Fortress. You know the one, it boosts you over a bottomless pit, but if you're holding any direction of button you'll die. I'm the type of person who ALWAYS holds forward on boost pads and the like, so that part really frustrated me to no end. I mean, having to push nothing to get over a gap in a platformer is just silly.

The music is also just boring. It has nothing on Scrap Brain or Death Egg from S&K.

Metropolis has fun parts such as the spear cube platforming and the wall bouncing, but the obnoxious gears that won't let you jump, the turning gears that you get knocked off and take forever to respawn, the enemy placement, and the fact that for some reason there's 3 freaking acts here make it an absolute chore to play through.

[Rynnec]

The only section in S3&K that really gave me any problems was the one conveyer belt section in the Death Egg, where if you die, you'll have to do the section again. Without any rings. Pissed me off when I first played it.

There's was also a point in Flying Battery Zone where I had no idea where to go during the section where you have to jump accross several spinning poles with fans on them. Dunno how to describe it though.

[Kiddington]

There's was also a point in Flying Battery Zone where I had no idea where to go during the section where you have to jump accross several spinning poles with fans on them. Dunno how to describe it though.

Ah, I think I know what you're talking about. It's the part where you have to wait for the missiles being shot out of the ground to launch up, then drop back down twice, which opens a hole for you to drop down through.

Pretty much the best way I can describe it, if that is indeed the part you're talking about.

[Spark Of Spirit]

There's was also a point in Flying Battery Zone where I had no idea where to go during the section where you have to jump accross several spinning poles with fans on them. Dunno how to describe it though.

Ah, I think I know what you're talking about. It's the part where you have to wait for the missiles being shot out of the ground to launch up, then drop back down twice, which opens a hole for you to drop down through.

Pretty much the best way I can describe it, if that is indeed the part you're talking about.

The best part of S3&K is that that part is entirely avoidable. But, yes, that part is confusing, I agree.

Trying to keep above water in Aquatic Ruin is not only a chore, it's just plain not fun.

[Kiddington]

Yeah, that's one of the great things about S3K; the levels are so vast and immersive, there are literally about 5-6 different given paths that one can take to complete it. It isn't linear whatsoever, and that makes for a truly great platformer.

(not saying that Sonic 2 is linear, mind you; just that S3K does level design so much better)

[Spark Of Spirit]

Sonic 2 isn't really totally linear (as far as Sonic goes), but it does make taking alternate paths... well, frustrating. Like I said, staying out of the water in Aquatic Ruin is a chore, it can be done but it's frustrating to do, yet one slip up and you fall in the water and that's pretty much it. Now it's slog through annoying objects and enemy zone.

On the other side, Hydrocity is full of traps, speed, platforms, and fun gimmicks EVERYWHERE. It's one of the few water levels in a game where falling in the water isn't something to actively avoid as an annoyance. I think only Sonic Colors and a handful of other games ever managed to get that feeling off.

It's the main difference between the games for me. Sonic 2, it's basically stay on the high road but don't go to fast of you fall to the bottom. Every other Sonic game didn't really do that, you can get to any route at pretty much any time. Even Sonic Generations seems to get that. I'm not saying it ruins Sonic 2 or anything, but it does tone down the exploration a bit.

[talonmalon333]

(Again, one zone if you count Carnival Night Act 2 and Sandopolis Act 2 as one zone)...

Why would you do that?

And the weird part is that I know there are people agree with me, but Sonic 2 still gets most of the praise while 1 and CD are overlooked and 3&K is brushed aside.

CD gets brushed aside? Pretty sure that's the most liked.

To me...

3&K>2>1=CD>SA2>SA>4

[gunswordfist]

I know I'm alone here, but... why is Sonic 2 regularly heralded as the best game in the Sonic franchise?

On a level design basis, it has a lot issues. Emerald Hill, Chemical Plant, Casino Night, and Hill Top (music aside), are awesome, but does anyone really think Aquatic Ruin is all that great? The water sections are boring and empty, the music is lame, and the level is full of badly placed enemies. Mystic Cave is fine, but it doesn't really stick out to me much at all, and the music is pretty standard fare, not really feeling very "Sonic".

Oil Ocean and Metropolis Zone are probably two of the worst zones in any of the classic games, the first has a bad art style that interferes with visibility (snooze-worthy music, too) and enemies that are hard to see and the latter is basically Sonic Team giving you the finger through 3 painfully annoying acts (but the music is awesome! "surf city, here we come!"). Then we get to Sky Chase which, music aside, is filler. Wing Fortress is dull, and by far the worst "final base" area of any of the classic games due to not really doing much of anything in the level. The less said about Death Egg and "hit 'em 4 times before the fight starts" Silver Sonic, and "wait, wait, wait, one hit, wait, wait -oops collision detection failure you're dead start over" Robotnik the better. IMO, after Mystic Cave, I usually lose all desire to continue playing.

The special stages... ugh, I've always hated these. It's still the only classic game where I don't bother with the special stages because they're just so boring and tedious to get to and half the time they're based on memorization because those stupid bombs are so freaking hard to see until its too late.

Well, despite all that, I think Sonic 2 is actually a pretty cool little game. But I really don't think it's as tight as 1 (which only has one bad zone), CD (again, only one annoying zone), or 3&K (Again, one zone if you count Carnival Night Act 2 and Sandopolis Act 2 as one zone)... And the weird part is that I know there are people agree with me, but Sonic 2 still gets most of the praise while 1 and CD are overlooked and 3&K is brushed aside.

I'm wondering if this is a Ninja Gaiden 1 NES, or TMNT II NES situation where people just don't seem to give the better games in the series a chance.

Not this shit again.

[gunswordfist]

Sonic 3 & Knuckles has more than two bad zones. Marble Garden sucks, whether you like it or not. It's a dull level with easily the worst boss in any of the classic Sonics and it had the problem of being way too long like most of Sonic 3 & Knuckles levels. Also, don't forget about how ugly some levels are. Here's a sneak peek:




Sega tried to push Sonic's graphics to the next level and failed miserably. And what the hell was Launch Base's theme supposed to be anyway? Speaking of themes, Angel Island had the stupid mistake of having NO FIRE OBSTACLES in a burning level. So dumb. They had water in the freaking stage. Also, Sky Sanctuary sucks. Sonic 3 & Knuckles best stage is Ice Cap Zone which was a zone that was originally supposed to be in Sonic 2.

Sonic 2's Death Egg bosses are also much better than Sonic 3 & Knuckles. In S3K, you had to fight that annoying gravity boss that...wait for it...takes to long to beat and then fight Egg Emperor's freaking fingers and then you had to beat him in a way that was much more repetitive than S2's boss battle. And before you say anything, Doomsday is a completely different stage.

Also, Sonic 3 & Knuckles special stage is the worst. All you do is turn and jump. And again, all of Sonic 3 & Knuckles midbosses suck and are badly designed. Just look at this one:



It's like they stopped trying.

Sonic 3 & Knuckles is a vastly overrated game and the worst title in the Sonic Genesis series.

[Kiddington]

Uhh... ok.

Couldn't disagree more.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Marble Garden is a great zone. It's a pure platformer zone after the 2 speedier zones the game started off with. People usually hate it because they can't mindlessly run through it. It's one of the few zones where I can finish it with like 600 rings or so, meaning it isn't even poorly designed, so you don't even have objectivity on your side there! 

I find it funny that you complain about level objects when Ice Cap Zone is the one zone where its obstacles have NOTHING to do with the level itself. Every single zone obstacle has to to do with the level itself in S3&K which is the way it should be. As for the no fire obstacle thing in Angel Island, well, the fire was started by the mini-boss. I mean, they already have water and electricity gimmicks in the level, fire gimmicks would be a tad too much, IMO.

The graphic complaints are purely aesthetic, so feel free to dislike it, but it's not like Sonic 2 was all that consistent either. Wing Fortress is the most bland looking zone ever,  and Aquatic Ruin looks like it came out of Kid Chameleon. As for the music, again, nothing I can argue with there. It's all taste. But Launch Base is supposed to be a mix of tribal beats and industrial (I think that's the right term), which is what the zone is so it fits.

Anyway, I don't know why you hate S3&K so much outside of such superficial complaints, but Sonic 2 has plenty of bad level design throughout. I mean, you told me you didn't like the water in Chemical Plant, so are you going to sit there and tell me how Aquatic Ruin is fun? How about Metropolis Zone? Oil Ocean? Wing Fortress? Death Egg beyond the music? I'd like someone to tell me how those are fun.

Also, any boss where they don't give you rings to fight the boss is poorly designed. And yes, I'm counting that glitch in S3&K's final boss. Fighting Silver Sonic was a joke as it was, he's a total time waster. If you want to complain about the fingers, fine, but at least it doesn't glitch out and kill you like Sonic 2's will. Nothing more fun than fighting a boss that can cheap you regardless of skill level.

Now, go play the whole game as Knuckles and give me something new to discuss! 

[Kiddington]

Sonic 3 & Knuckles has more than two bad zones. Marble Garden sucks, whether you like it or not. It's a dull level with easily the worst boss in any of the classic Sonics and it had the problem of being way too long like most of Sonic 3 & Knuckles levels.

I can't believe you actually hate the boss in Marble Garden. I've always found it to be one of the more unique Robotnik battles in the classic Sonic games, and unless you're playing it on a solo-Tails run (whom, admittedly, does get screwed in this to a certain degree), it's a lot of fun, IMO.

I dunno. Reading over your post again, I guess it all comes down to personal taste and what have you... but still. You might just be the first person that I've EVER seen that actively dislikes S3K to this degree. But, hey, whatever; again, that's your opinion. different strokes for different folks, as I always say.

[Spark Of Spirit]

He's mostly doing it to mess with me, but I like talking Sonic so I don't mind.

I've been trying to get him to play the Knuckles half of the game, however. That's a pretty good challenge for someone like him who finds Sonic games too easy.

[gunswordfist]

Like I told you long ago, when you tried to disregard my opinion on the game because you thought I didn't beat the game as Knuckles, I in fact have.

"Pure platforming" is just bland. Marble Garden is just a dull level featuring a Mystic Cave zone ripoff midboss.

Last time I checked, Ice Cap Zone had ice spikes. Don't know why you brought that up.

I have no clue how Wing Fortress looks bland. I can see how Sky Sanctuary does. Or Sandopolis.