Battle Shonen Stuff

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Another cliche that I absolutely loathe in battle shonen in particular are the "will they or won't they relationships." I consider it to be bad in any medium, but it's the worst when it comes to this genre. Usually a love interest is introduced for the main character, and then they do nothing with the chemistry between the two of them, and either nothing ever comes of the tease, or they end up together by the end even ough they barely ever interacted that much. I find it to be incredibly lazy writing and don't get the point of it. Either develop the relationships between your characters, or don't include these elements in your battle shonen at all. Just leave it to romance manga to actually handle romance. I despise the notion that mangaka just tease at relationships for the sole purpose of pleasing shippers, yet have no actual worthwhile commentary on the human nature of romance. It doesn't bother me so much in something like JoJo's or Dragon Ball, because absolutely no time is spend on romance, anyways. But with more modern manga, there is just enough time devoted to some of this stuff to be considered intrusive to the main story, yet it ends up just becoming a waste of time because it's just teasing and after a few chapters everything goes back to status quo.

Of course, there are exceptions to the rule. For instance, even though I'm not a huge fan of it, Baby Steps is a manga where the relationship is actually developed and slowly progresses over time, and goes through clear stages. It's not a heavy exploration of the subject material, since the manga is focused more on sports, but that's fine because at least it is something. But then there's something like Bakuman, which is a manga that I love, and even though it's not battle shonen, it still follows many shonen tropes in celebration of the genre, but one of the few that I really don't like is the relationship between the main male and female leads which essentially sets the story of the manga into motion. It's just so cheesy (in a bad way) and underdeveloped for a manga that's generally more down to Earth.

It's not a huge issue that makes me stop reading series, as I'm not a huge fan of romance stories to begin with, but that's not an excuse to not write it well if you choose to include it in your story.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Since we were discussing our favorite Shonen Jump manga a few weeks back, I thought that it'd be interesting to post this list of the top 20 Shonen Jump manga, according to a poll of Japanese readers across all ages: http://m.crunchyroll.com/article/?id=98549

My thoughts are as follows:

20. I've never even heard of this one. Doesn't look like my cup of tea, though.

19. This is on my long list of manga that I've been meaning to get around to reading for several years, but I honestly just sort of keep forgetting that it exists.

18. Most of these votes must have come from younger readers who don't know any better.  It's a good manga, but it's way too early to be saying that it's anywhere near a top 20, especially since it isn't even finished yet, and clearly still has a long way to go. It's just the hot thing right now, which is why it's in here, and personally I prefer the anime.

17. No. Just, no.

16. Even more just no.

15. Now, this manga at this spot actually makes sense for a change.

14. This is another choice that I can personally get behind. It's just such a fun read.

13. Eh, I would have preferred it to be much higher, but it's at least good that it's on here, indicating that enough Japanese readers can at least see how relevant it still is.

12. Fuck no! Even before this manga became shit, it was just a solid read, but not great enough to ahieve the status of a top 20 in ranking, IMO. This is just another popularity vote, since the manga only recently ended. If it were lower I might have been OK with that, but ahead of #'s 15 and 13? No way in hell could anyone in their right mind agree with that.

11. This is another one that's actually really well placed. I think it's a great manga, but certainly a flawed one, so keeping it just out of the top 10 seems appropriate to me.

10. I haven't read enough of this to judge it, but while the early arc stuff seems perhaps a bit too simplistic for my liking, I'll give this manga the benefit of the doubt.

9. I knew that this one was coming, so instead of my usual fuck no, I'll just say that I'm glad (and honestly even a little surprised) that it's not any higher than this.

8. I really tried getting into both the manga and the anime, and I just couldn't. That said, I'll still acknowledge it as a classic since it did have so much undeniable influence on the genre.

7. Another one that I've personally never heard of before.

6. I read a chapter of this about a year ago and liked it. I really should read more of it at some point in time. It's one do those classic sports manga that had a ton of influence on the genre, much like Ahita no Joe did, albeit this one is much less realistic in its portrayal.

5. While I'm by no means in love with this series yet, I can certainly understand why it deserves to be this high on the list.

4. This one just goes without saying. Its inclusion at such a high spot is enough to let me forgive #12's placement on the list.

3. I watched a few episodes of the anime several years ago, and that's about it. I know that it's ridicuously popukar in Japan, but I have yet to read the manga. I will certainly check it out someday, though.

2. Eh, truthfully, were this pre time-skip, I'd actually be cool with this manga placing so high on the list. At the very least it would deserve it for giving us some of the greatest shonen story arcs ever. However, with all of the stuff from the past 5-years or so,  the manga has really been dragged down in quality. Even then, I could still see it justified as being placed in the top 20, and maybe even the top 10, but certainly nothing within the top 5, but what can you do, it's one of the most popular manga of all time.

1. And....who didn't see this one coming? But, as obvious as it is, and whether you appreciate this manga or not, nobody should be able to honestly deny that this manga deserves to be here. Just the sheer amount of influence it had on the genre absolutely trumps almost any other influential entry in the grand scheme of things. Other classic series influenced formula and story-telling techniques among modern mangaka. This manga outright inspired many people to become mangaka in the first place. And honestly, it's still a great manga that holds up superbly well. I can't stand anyone who discredits it just because they only know it by a sub-par anime adaptation with a bad dub. It's my 2nd favorite Shonen Jump manga of all time for a reason, and if I were to take personal bias out of the equation, even I would rank it as the #1 manga out of sheer importance and its overall level of quality.

Overall, it's a pretty decent list for something that's essentially just a popularity poll. I've at least seen much worse from lists compiled this way, myself, but if I were to make a list of my own, it'd certainly look very different from this one.

[LumRanmaYasha]

Oh, I saw this one before. Rankings on reader popularity lists like this never make sense in an objective sense and are more or less a judgement of how popular these series are, so it was pretty much what I expected, with a few interesting placements that caught my eye. I suppose I could share some thoughts on it:

20 - Yeah, I've heard of this one for years, and basically the kind of series that I always actively avoided. I do know what it's about, and have seen some clips/pages here and there, and watched this review of it, and it basically seems to be what it looks like on the surface: a generic shonen magical girlfriend/harem series. It seems harmless enough, and decently amusing, but a series like this is a dime a dozen and nothing I've heard about it makes it sound interesting to me. I plan to read most popular manga series, good and bad, sometime down the line, this included, but it's pretty much at the bottom of my reading list alongside similarly popular generic/mediocre series.

19 - Now this is something that's fairly high as a reading priority for me. When I'll get around to it is up in the air, though.

18 - Of all the popular currently running ten-gen Jump series, this is the one that's on here? I guess it still has buzz left from the recent anime. Anyhoo, I'm chugging along through Haikyuu!!, and it's okay, but nothing really unique or standout to me either. I also personally just can't get into it much, so when I do try reading it I basically get through one or two chapters and I'm done for the day. I'd probably enjoy the anime more since the execution seemed better there from what I can compare of it, so I might try and do that sometime if I can get motivated to. But right now, I have to say that this is easily my least favorite of the good currently running manga I'm reading in Shonen Jump. That might change once I get caught up to it...but I'm not holding my breath on that.

17 - Never read it. I listened to the Weekly Manga Recap episode about it, though, so I have a basic understanding of it. Again, like To Love Ru, I will read it one day for the sake of having an informed opinion about it, but it's another one of those things that's at the very bottom of my reading list.

16 - I'm somewhat surprised this is on this list. It's sales have dropped a million every year for the past five and it consistently ranks in the bottom five of the magazine these days. Still, it does still technically sell well so it must still be somewhat popular. It's easily the worst currently running manga I'm reading and probably the worst series currently running in Jump, imo, and I'd hope that once it ends it's popularity continues to fade and fade until it's essentially forgotten.

15 - I'm honestly surprised this is not in the top ten. Not much else to say otherwise. It deserves it's popularity.

14 - I'm very surprised this is ranked higher than Death Note. I did like the anime back when I watched it on Jetstream. Don't remember that much beyond a few certain scenes/moments, though. Should probably revisit it as a manga sometime.

13 - Why is this not in the top ten? I thought it was still one of the more relevant older Jump titles these days, especially with those live action movies and whatnot. Well, I guess the fact it made this list at all is indicative of that.

12 - No. I don't hate Kuroko, I really don't. I've read series that offended me worse and are much worse manga. I really, truly enjoyed the first half. But that entire second half of the series and that final game was some of the most tedious, at times infuriating, other times boring, manga I've ever read. It might not be nearly as awful as Bleach or crap like that, but I still can not get behind it being on this list. Vlord asked me yesterday if I thought it was worth reading. I immediately told him no. Immediately. Without pause. Even though it had a strong start, and there were things I enjoyed, by the end, I simply did not feel the journey was worth the time I put into it. There are much better sports manga worth reading more than KnB, and surely other Shonen Jump series worth being on this list more than it too.

11 - Yeah, I'm down with this placement. Seems appropriate for it.

10 - Fairly high on my reading list. Also not surprised about it's placement.

9 - Surprised it's not higher, honestly.

8 - Same as #10 except that I have actually read and watched a tiny bit of it (only like the first volume of the manga and first two episodes of the anime, but still). Somewhat on a tangent, though, I've been reading Sanctuary, a seinin manga the writer Buronson wrote, and is a series generally well praised by a lot of manga readers and also considered by some to be a masterpiece and one of the best manga ever....yeeeaaaah no. I'm two thirds of the way into it, and I really can't take that sentiment seriously anymore. It is not a mature, deeply-written manga by any stretch and is pretty obviously a kind of macho male political thriller fantasy that tries to be "adult" by having lots of sex and dealing with mafia and politics and stuff but is really simplistic about it's messages, characters, and morals at it's core. As such, there are a lot of moments in the series that I find just are too over the top and silly when you really think about them for me to take it seriously. But, I feel that macho sentimentality might work better in an over the top action series like FOTNS, so that might be the writer's strength, and if anything makes me even more curious to read it sometime. Also it probably lacks the blatant and downright offensive sexism of Sanctuary, so that should be a plus too.

7 - Oh hey, if it isn't the longest running (and still running) Shonen Jump series and the flat out longest manga period in volume count of all time! Duh this is on here. I really wish someone would translate more of this, since I can get behind these kind of mainstream anime/manga series that even non-anime/manga fans in Japan like, such as Golgo 13, Oishinbo, Doraemon, etc., but it seems just no one is interested because it's almost 200 volumes long and still going and stuff. Shame. Maybe I'll learn japanese one day, and be able to read it then.

6 - Another duh. It's the biggest and longest running sports manga franchise, after all. Also fairly high on my reading list, though there are other sports manga that I've been made aware of that I'm more interested in at this point in time.

5 - I'm definitely down with this placement. It's my personal favorite Shonen Jump series. Even if I were to consider just Part 4 or Part 6 only, it would still be my favorite.

4 -  Down with this one too. Truly one of the definitive sports manga and shonen manga in general.

3 - Wow, I'm surprised this is so high! At the same time, I can't say I totally disagree, because it does what it does so well and is probably Jump's best comedy manga period. I think when it tries to take itself seriously it's not nearly as strong, but when it actually does serious arcs it can do them really well (and have some strong character development and action when it tries too), so I'd say it's a very well rounded series. The current arc has also been excellent, and I probably would enjoy it even more if I was caught up on the series properly (I really should get around to the Yoshiwara arc, in particular). My only problem with the manga is that it's exhausting to read in chunks at a time. A regular non-action oriented chapter of Gintama is usually so cram packed with dialogue that it can legitimate takes three times longer to read than a single chapter of most other Jump series that I've read, and I can't marathon read it well because of that. I prefer the anime because of that (and I do think a lot of the humor does come across stronger there as well), but the manga is still strong stuff. Again, it's a series I really want to be fully caught up on soon, especially since it's one of three I have left to be fully caught up on to be caught up on every Shonen Jump manga worth being caught up on. Hopefully I can try and accomplish that during the holiday break this year.

2 - Yeah, this was either going to be #1 or #2. It's the fucking highest-selling manga of all time and still easily the most popular currently running manga in Japan. Even though the quality has dragged since the time-skip, even on a list of just the best manga general ever, I still think you could make a strong case for it being somewhere in the top 20.

1 - And DUH DUH DUH! I mean, it was either going to be this or OP at #1, and I personally am glad it's DB. It's pretty much the most influential battle-shonen series, and one of the best manga period.

So yeah, pretty typical. Some things higher than I expected, some lower, but generally unsurprising and what I'd expect the most popular Jump series still are.

I couldn't make an objective Top 20 Shonen Jump series list myself, because I can't think of 20 Jump series that I'm legitimately a fan of and there are too many notable titles like FOTNS and Saint Seiya that I have never read. If I were to try, though, based on everything that I have read, then it would probably look like this:

1. Dragon Ball
2. Rurouni Kenshin
3. Slam Dunk
4. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
5. Death Note
6. Dr. Slump
7. One Piece
8. Bakuman
9. Gintama
10. Hunter X Hunter

Though there are still other Jump series I've read and am a fan of, I either haven't finished or seen enough of them to rank them in a list, so this is basically the best I can manage, which tells me I should get on and read more classic/well-respected Jump series sometime.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

On a quick note, for Haikyuu!, I'd really recommend just sticking with the anime. The execution is much better than the manga, even if the story itself is average. It makes it come off as more entertaining than it really is. The manga itself is OK, but I don't get why it's so popular. The art-work is hideous (I mean Togashi-levels of bad), and there is nothing original about the story. It's basically Kuroko no Basket with Volleyball instead of Basketball.

I wouldn't say that KnB is absolutely not worth reading, myself. I'd say that the first half is good, and parts of the second half are good, like the Kaijou rematch and the flashback arc. The stuff with Murasakibara and Akashi were really lame, though, but I don't see it as much of a series where you're only reading it for the "payoff." It's a series where you read it for fun, so in that regard, it still has more good than bad in it, even if went out on a really sour note with a disappointing final game. Would I say that it's worth reading if you haven't read several better sports manga first, like Slam Dunk, Ashita no Joe, Cross Game, and so on? No. But much like Hajime no Ippo, it's worth getting around to for the parts that are legitimately good, and the weaker stuff can just be skipped.

Anyways, good list. I can't fault anything on that, and I've read at least a significant portion of 9 of those series, whereas I've dabbled a bit with Gintama and will likely get to it at some point in time.

Honestly, for a popularity poll, it's still a better list than I would expect. Naruto is considerably lower than it would've been in the prime of its popularity, and both classics and more interesting contemporary series are ranked higher.

[LumRanmaYasha]

I know I'm not giving Kuroko enough credit, and I did enjoy many parts of it, but at the end of the day, looking back on it, I just don't think even experiencing just the good moments were worth reading it. It's fun, sure, but there are other series just as fun, better overall, and have great payoff, so there's no reason to go for it over those series. Hence why when Vlord asked me, I didn't hesitate to tell him that I just didn't feel it wasn't worth reading, and his time would be better spent reading Slam Dunk instead. And I don't think you could disagree with me about that. Of course, if there was someone who really liked reading sports manga, had read most of the best of the genre, and was just looking for another fun series to try, then sure, then I would recommend it. But otherwise, I just don't have a very positive opinion of the series overall, a lot of it for personal reasons, sure, but I just feel I've read manga (I haven't really even read that many sports manga, but still) that were so much more rewarding to read, and did what KnB did in better ways, so even if you would only just read the parts that were good, I just don't see the point unless you really love reading sports manga.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I know I'm not giving Kuroko enough credit, and I did enjoy many parts of it, but at the end of the day, looking back on it, I just don't think even experiencing just the good moments were worth reading it.

You see, I don't agree with this. If something is good, then it means it was worth the time. Modern times have spoiled us into saying that something that isn't super high quality isn't worth our time, but the reality is that these types of series are what we get relative to the best out there. You can't expect everything that you read to be Monster or AnJ levels of quality. And by the same token, not everyone might find those series to be great. We only experience what we like by trying them. The fact is that KnB had enough parts that were good that, were I to write a review for it, I'd say that it's at least worth checking out for someone interested in this type of series, though I would recommend other stronger ones above it first. Even so, I wouldn't just decide that it's not with anyone's time if I myself enjoyed a good chunk of it. I'd let others try it and decide for themselves. Now if I found a majority of the series to be shit, then that'd be a different story.

It's fun, sure, but there are other series just as fun, better overall, and have great payoff, so there's no reason to go for it over those series. Hence why when Vlord asked me, I didn't hesitate to tell him that I just didn't feel it wasn't worth reading, and his time would be better spent reading Slam Dunk instead. And I don't think you could disagree with me about that.

I already mentioned that, though. My point was that it still doesn't make the manga not worth reading. It just puts it on a lower priority than other series. How do you think I even have backlogs in the first place? I don't just go around only reading or watching stuff that I hear are super amazing, because any fans of any series will paint it out that way. I just go for ones that have a general consensus of being good, and then form my own opinions on it. Case in point: I checked out REAL because it sounded interesting, but I read some reviews on the manga which were positive, and others which said it was too slow and not worth reading for the good parts. As you know, I LOVE that manga, but I never would have had the chance to formulate that opinion for myself had I just listened to the reviews telling me to skip it because there were better manga out there. In other words, I took the general consensus that it had overall good quality to it, and then formed my own opinion from there.

Of course, if there was someone who really liked reading sports manga, had read most of the best of the genre, and was just looking for another fun series to try, then sure, then I would recommend it. But otherwise, I just don't have a very positive opinion of the series overall, a lot of it for personal reasons, sure, but I just feel I've read manga (I haven't really even read that many sports manga, but still) that were so much more rewarding to read, and did what KnB did in better ways, so even if you would only just read the parts that were good, I just don't see the point unless you really love reading sports manga.

The point, as I stated above, is to let people decide for themselves. Not assume that they will necessarily come to the same conclusion that you and I happened to.

For instance, I've read a good chunk of Baby Steps and think that it's just OK. I've encountered a fan who has read way more sports manga than I have and seems to love it. While I agree that there are better manga than KnB in its genre, I still think it does enough unique stuff to stand out, and while it doesn't have the heart of other sports manga, I think that its still more good than bad, and thus I'd say it's worth a shot (no pun intended) if you have the time and if the concept interests you in the first place. It's what I'd call a lower priority manga, as in one that I wouldnt recommend over certain others, but that I still would say may or may not be worth getting around to depending on who I was recommending it to.

You generally seem to be of the opinion that if it's not top tier material in your opinion, than it's not worth the time. That's fine, but personally I don't operate that way. On that end, I'd recommend some series that I'm not the biggest fan of, myself, over series that I like more. It'd be like me recommending Space Dandy over Kids on the Slope. To me, Space Dandy is decent, but not the best Watanabe work, but at the same time I love Kids on the Slope, yet I know that it wouldn't necessarily appeal to other people the same way, so I'd recommend Dandy first because they'd probably enjoy it more. Another example is recommending Evagelion over Full Metal Panic! the series. I personally prefer the latter, but know that the former would probably resonate with more people (and for that matter, FMP is considered by many to be a mediocre mecha series much in the same way that you consider KnB to be a mediocre sports series, but it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone has to agree with it).

I know I went overboard with text trying to explain my point, but that's just due to my poor writing skills. Basically, though, I just feel that it is actually worth recommending something that's good but not great, but just not as a high priority. If I were to write a review on it, I'd say: "despite its problems, it is a good series overall, so check it out if it seems interesting and you've already read some of the better Basketball manga out there." Not: "Well, I did like a significant portion of this series, but avoid it like the plague because it's not a masterpiece by any means and has some lame parts, even if the good stuff outweighs that in the longrun." That logic just doesn't make much sense to me.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Also, I should clarify that I wasn't referring to VLord, who you specifically referred to, but just people in general, or at least manga fans.

[LumRanmaYasha]

You see, I don't agree with this. If something is good, then it means it was worth the time. Modern times have spoiled us into saying that something that isn't super high quality isn't worth our time, but the reality is that these types of series are what we get relative to the best out there. You can't expect everything that you read to be Monster or AnJ levels of quality. And by the same token, not everyone might find those series to be great. We only experience what we like by trying them.

Eh? You should know that I don't do that. In fact, I've said that underlined statement myself before in that whole conversation about whether there were any great currently running shonen series we had a month back. In fact, in that conversation, I remember you saying something along the lines of "wait a minute CX I'm sure I would reasonably enjoy some of those series you keep up with but I doubt that I would love them" and I was like "well, maybe you won't like them as much as AnJ but I think these are legitimately great series you might enjoy and you should try them out." 

The key word here is if I found Kuroko "good." I can't say that about it. I would it decent, serviceable, fun at times, but at the end of the day, the flaws in the series really detracted from the experience for me, and made me bitter about it by the end. It didn't fuel me with the kind of hatred that I have for something like Fairy Tail, and isn't very badly written outside of certain stretches, but the bad about it stuck in my mind more than the good did. When I think about the series, the first things that come to mind are how much I hated Akaishi and so many scenes involving him, how tedious and terrible that final game was, and how dumb I find the antagonists/rivals motivation's in retrospect. Anything good about the series, like the rematch with To'oh, only comes after that, and even then, I remember stuff like how I tired I got at that particular game during the middle stretch, and how much the series dragged for me after that. I can remember parts that I enjoy, and can recognize that I was legitimately into around 60% of the overall story, but at the end of the day, the bad in it ended up being more memorable to me than the good, and is what I have come to associate the series with. So how can I recommend something that I immediately have a negative stigma towards to someone I know? I can't justify that. I might not hate the series, I might not think it's a bad manga at the end of the day, but still, I did not feel satisfied by the series. I wouldn't stop someone from seeking it out if they really wanted to, but if they were to ask my opinion about it, I have to be honest about how I feel about it with them. Maybe they wouldn't feel the same way as me. I'm sure a lot of people might not. In that case they should take my opinion with a grain of salt and check it out anyway. I won't stop them. But I personally just cannot say that I found the series worth reading, and can't recommend it in good conscience because of that. 

The fact is that KnB had enough parts that were good that, were I to write a review for it, I'd say that it's at least worth checking out for someone interested in this type of series, though I would recommend other stronger ones above it first. Even so, I wouldn't just decide that it's not with anyone's time if I myself enjoyed a good chunk of it. I'd let others try it and decide for themselves. Now if I found a majority of the series to be shit, then that'd be a different story.

That's basically what I said, though. Well, I guess it came across that I didn't think anybody should ever read the series, but I didn't really mean it like that. If you really were interested in the premise and wanted to check it out, I would tell someone "yeah, try it out, but go for some series I think are stronger first." But in the case of someone who is just curious and not particularly interested in the series, and is just like "Hey, I heard about this, what do you think about it?" I have to be honest and say I don't think at the end of the day it was something that rewarded the amount of time I put into reading it, for reasons I outlined above, and as such it isn't really something you need to check out. Again, I wouldn't actively discourage anybody from reading it if they really wanted to, but I don't feel positive enough about it to endorse it, either.

I already mentioned that, though. My point was that it still doesn't make the manga not worth reading. It just puts it on a lower priority than other series. How do you think I even have backlogs in the first place? I don't just go around only reading or watching stuff that I hear are super amazing, because any fans of any series will paint it out that way. I just go for ones that have a general consensus of being good, and then form my own opinions on it. Case in point: I checked out REAL because it sounded interesting, but I read some reviews on the manga which were positive, and others which said it was too slow and not worth reading for the good parts. As you know, I LOVE that manga, but I never would have had the chance to formulate that opinion for myself had I just listened to the reviews telling me to skip it because there were better manga out there. In other words, I took the general consensus that it had overall good quality to it, and then formed my own opinion from there.

That's what I do too. Again, it boils down to whether I think Kuroko is a "good" manga, which is something that I just can't say about it.

Also, I sincerely doubt there are any such reviews of REAL, so...

The point, as I stated above, is to let people decide for themselves. Not assume that they will necessarily come to the same conclusion that you and I happened to.

Like I said, I wouldn't discourage people from checking it out if they really wanted to, but I'm not going to hide my opinion on the series either.

For instance, I've read a good chunk of Baby Steps and think that it's just OK. I've encountered a fan who has read way more sports manga than I have and seems to love it. While I agree that there are better manga than KnB in its genre, I still think it does enough unique stuff to stand out, and while it doesn't have the heart of other sports manga, I think that its still more good than bad, and thus I'd say it's worth a shot (no pun intended) if you have the time and if the concept interests you in the first place. It's what I'd call a lower priority manga, as in one that I wouldnt recommend over certain others, but that I still would say may or may not be worth getting around to depending on who I was recommending it to.

And that's fine since that's how you feel about it. It's just not how I feel, though.

You generally seem to be of the opinion that if it's not top tier material in your opinion, than it's not worth the time. That's fine, but personally I don't operate that way. On that end, I'd recommend some series that I'm not the biggest fan of, myself, over series that I like more. It'd be like me recommending Space Dandy over Kids on the Slope. To me, Space Dandy is decent, but not the best Watanabe work, but at the same time I love Kids on the Slope, yet I know that it wouldn't necessarily appeal to other people the same way, so I'd recommend Dandy first because they'd probably enjoy it more. Another example is recommending Evagelion over Full Metal Panic! the series. I personally prefer the latter, but know that the former would probably resonate with more people (and for that matter, FMP is considered by many to be a mediocre mecha series much in the same way that you consider KnB to be a mediocre sports series, but it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone has to agree with it).

Well now this is simply not true. I consider anything that is legitimately entertaining, well-written, and satisfying to be worth reading. It certainly does not have to be what I consider to be top-tier material. For example, I don't think The Seven Deadly Sins is anything necessarily special from other battle-shonen series, but it has good writing, an interesting world and take on a familiar storyline,  characters that I like, can get behind, and be invested in, and overall just provides me with consistent entertainment. It isn't a series I would call "great," but I think it succeeds at what it does and is very enjoyable as a result, and hence I find it well worth reading at this point in time. At the same time, I don't think it's nearly at the same quality as, say, A Silent Voice (different genre but both are on Crunchyroll so whatevs), which is now one of my all time favorite manga. But if someone were to ask me about what series on Crunchyroll to check out and I felt that Sins was more up their alley I would recommend it over ASV. Even if I don't feel the person will like it more I wouldn't discourage people from checking it out first if they are more inclined to do so either. I told as much so to Vlord when he asked me about it. He didn't feel like checking out A Silent Voice yet, but he did decide to check out Sins anyways, read it for himself, and just happened to like it and now keeps up with it as well. In any case, while I have a favorable opinion on it now, if Sins were to ever stop being enjoyable for me, and provide an experience that sours my opinion on it, even if it doesn't become a awful series by any means, then, like KnB, I might no longer have that opinion on it.

I know I went overboard with text trying to explain my point, but that's just due to my poor writing skills. Basically, though, I just feel that it is actually worth recommending something that's good but not great, but just not as a high priority. If I were to write a review on it, I'd say: "despite its problems, it is a good series overall, so check it out if it seems interesting and you've already read some of the better Basketball manga out there." Not: "Well, I did like a significant portion of this series, but avoid it like the plague because it's not a masterpiece by any means and has some lame parts, even if the good stuff outweighs that in the longrun." That logic just doesn't make much sense to me.

But that's not quite the sentiment I have on the series. My sentiment is "Well, I suppose if I step back and think about it there was a significant portion of this series that I liked, but by the end of the series the bad ended up sticking in my mind much more than the good did, and so while I wouldn't say it's a "bad" manga I can't say I found it to be a "good" one overall either, so while I'm not going to discourage you from checking it out if you are really inclined to do so, I can't say I found it worth the time I put into it, and hence I just can't justify recommending it unless you really love this kind of series." It's a completely subjective opinion that I would only apply in conversations with friends, not an objective review, but those are my personal feelings about the series at the end of the day.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

First off, why the hell would you doubt that there is such a review of REAL? It's something that I read a while back, hence why I didn't bother going back to look for a link, but do you really doubt my word that much? And even then, you completely missed the point. I used that as an example. I can list many other examples if that doesn't suit you. FMP, GTO, Yu Yu Hakusho, and many others have received positive, mediocre, and even some negative reviews, and I love all of those anime because I formulated my own opinions on them.

Furthermore, every single point you made is just arguing the same point that you already made. Before you said that it was good, but now you're making a distinction between good and decent. Well, fine, but I don't agree with you, or if I were to go by your standars, than I could also never recommend Magi, One Piece, Hunter X Hunter, or various other shonen that I like to anyone.

But, whatever, that's your opinion. I'm not going to make another wall of text response to it. I highly disagree with your sentiments in this case, though, so let's just leave it at that.

[LumRanmaYasha]

I'm fine with stopping this conversation, but a few things I want to address:

First off, why the hell would you doubt that there is such a review of REAL? It's something that I read a while back, hence why I didn't bother going back to look for a link, but do you really doubt my word that much? And even then, you completely missed the point. I used that as an example. I can list many other examples if that doesn't suit you. FMP, GTO, Yu Yu Hakusho, and many others have received positive, mediocre, and even some negative reviews, and I love all of those anime because I formulated my own opinions on them.

It's called a joke, silly. And you say I can't tell when someone's being serious or not. 

Furthermore, every single point you made is just arguing the same point that you already made. Before you said that it was good, but now you're making a distinction between good and decent. Well, fine, but I don't agree with you, or if I were to go by your standars, than I could also never recommend Magi, One Piece, Hunter X Hunter, or various other shonen that I like to anyone.

Well, if you look at my previous posts in this thread, you'll find that I've never actually called it "good."    Also, since this doesn't seem clear, I will state for the record that I don't "like" Kuroko anymore, so...there. 

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I was referring to your posts in general, where I do recall you either saying it was good, or at least something above decent. The bottom line is that you made the distinction in your previous post for the first time, so you can't expect me to have accounted for that interpretation in any of your posts before that.

As for KnB, it's a moot poing because I disagree with you. I think it's a good series and I'm perfectly fine with separating the good from the bad (and personally I feel that you overexaggerated how big a portion of the series is actually bad to begin with), hence why I want to drop the argument, because it makes no sense when we don't even agree on the basis of whether a series is good or not to begin with.

Though, by that logic, I must be honest and say that if I thought of KnB along the same standards that you did, I could no longer think of Magi, JoJo's, or Hunter X Hunter as good series, either, even though I like all 3 far better than Kuroko's.

[LumRanmaYasha]

I was referring to your posts in general, where I do recall you either saying it was good, or at least something above decent. The bottom line is that you made the distinction in your previous post for the first time, so you can't expect me to have accounted for that interpretation in any of your posts before that.

Nah, even look back on my final thoughts on the series in the Currently Manga Discussion thread, and you'll see that I never acknowledge it as good, but at best just "mostly enjoyable." Which is not the same thing as good, because right now I would call Sanctuary "mostly enjoyable," and that's another manga where I find the things that weigh it down prevent me from saying I "like" it or calling it "good" either.

As for KnB, it's a moot poing because I disagree with you. I think it's a good series and I'm perfectly fine with separating the good from the bad (and personally I feel that you overexaggerated how big a portion of the series is actually bad to begin with), hence why I want to drop the argument, because it makes no sense when we don't even agree on the basis of whether a series is good or not to begin with.

Though, by that logic, I must be honest and say that if I thought of KnB along the same standards that you did, I could no longer think of Magi, JoJo's, or Hunter X Hunter as good series, either, even though I like all 3 far better than Kuroko's.

It would be one thing if we simply disagreed on the series, in which case I wouldn't even respond to this post, but you seem to think that I don't like KnB because of some guidelines I have for what makes a good series and what doesn't. But it isn't a matter of "standards." I don't think KnB isn't a "good" series because of some checklist I have in my head of things a series must do in order to be good. It's a matter of how I personally feel about the series that makes me unable to think of it fondly anymore. The reason I don't like KnB anymore is because by the end of the series everything I liked about it had been weakened by the things I didn't like about it. When I was reading it, things I liked about included Kuroko's interesting role as a support for his teammates, the development of the teamwork between him and Kagami, and Teppei (who was my favorite character in the series) and Hyuuga's backstory and motivations. But the payoff for these things did not satisfy me, and that really disappointed me. Combine this with Akaishi, who is legitimately one of my least favorite characters in any anime/manga series ever, and I hated almost every scene he was in barring the flashback arc and towards the end, the overuse of superpower-ish techniques and gimmicks that came off very Prince of Tennis-esque, and an increasing lack in my ability to invest in the series, even before I finished getting caught up with it and finished the series by reading it on a weekly basis...by the end I just didn't have a favorable opinion about the series overall. Just too many things didn't end up working for me about the series, and the stuff I didn't like recalls much easier than what I did, and a lot of what I did didn't have payoff that I felt was satisfying enough to offset anything I didn't like. You clearly disagree with me, and that's perfectly fine, but understand that this is simply how I feel about the series, and why I would not be able to recommend it to someone I knew if they were to ask me my opinion on it.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I love how you clearly miss the part where I said that you may or may not have called it good, but something that could be interpreted as the equivalent of good before I saw your recent post making a clear distinction. So in other words, your response to me was redundant of what I just said.

As for your other response, I never said that you had a checklist of standards or implied that in any way, so I'm not sure where you got that notion from. When I used the word "standards" in the first place, I was simply just implying that the way you judge the series is different from how I do. I also clearly said that I don't see Kuroko as a "payoff" sort of manga on this very thread. I view it arc by arc, or in this case match by match. It's not all about build up to the final match for me, but whether I'm enjoying what I'm reading at the moment. Hence why our views on the series don't match up at all. You view it as one overall story and since the later half of the story didn't go where you like, it weakens the story as a whole. I get that perfectly fine. I just didn't agree with that particular sentiment, per se, but rather I just view the series in a completely different way, where the bad stuff doesn't sour the legitimately good stuff for me.

If I did view series that way, I would also have to apply it to stuff that I like more than KnB, like the examples that I mentioned above, which is what I was getting at. Like, HXH is one of my favorite shonen manga, but I have a shit-ton of problems with it (arguably even more than Kuroko), but since I view each arc separately, I can easily separate the good from the bad, and can even do so within the same arc. Like, the Chimera Ant arc is REALLY a mixed bag for me, but I'm still glad that I stomached the horrid parts for the great parts. I view KnB in much the same way. I don't feel like I wasted my time with a good portion of the series. It was really only 2 or 3 particular matches that I had negative opinions on. It doesn't make me like the ones that I already liked any less, though. That's basically what I'm getting at, and why I'm saying that it's pointless to argue because regardless of how you describe it, we clearly view series in different ways when we judge them, even though in most cases we just happen to come to similar conclusions on them. Obviously this is one of those few exceptions.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

This applies to any medium of entertainment, not just shonen or even just manga and anime, but I hate, hate, HATE, "all according to plan" villains. You know, the villains who are 50 steps ahead of everyone else just because the author thinks it's cool. Personally I love it when the hero and villain, or general opposing side are on even ground and just constantly one-upping each other. A good example of this is the confrontation between Light and L in Death Note.

But then you have villains like Madara or Black Zetsu from Naruto, who literally state "this was actually my plan all along" MULTIPLE TIMES EACH in the Shinobi War arc. Those aren't smart villains. That's just bad writing that actually makes them even less interesting than they already were (or weren't, in this case).

On a side note, I also hate heroes who are umpteen steps ahead of the game. It doesn't make them look cool, but just arrogant, obnoxious, overpowered douchebags.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

So, I've been thinking about the genre again, lately, and part of the reason for why I was seeking out some American comic books to read was because I did need a break from all of the tropes that kind of drive me up the wall after a while when I read too many battle shonen. It's not the fault of any one particular manga, but it is sort of a thing that burns me out when I read/watch too much of something in the same genre and get a bit ticked off at their predictable tendencies.

That said, I also came to a positive realization about battle shonen tropes after reading something totally different from that genre. There are actually quite a few that I like. I noticed this because I kind of miss some elements of the genre that I have read a lot of, for better or worse, when I'm reading another type of comic. And while I love what I've been reading, recently, I wanted to highlight the top five general shonen tropes that I actually find to be inherently good qualities of the genre. Sure, they can be tarnished by bad writing, but surprisingly, I find that, more often than not, even a lot of the mediocre to bad manga seem to at least manage to get some of these right.

In no particular order, here are five things that I actually personally find are usually done well in the genre:

1. Unique And Interesting Worlds- It's actually pretty typical for a battle shonen manga to be set in its own fictional world. Now, not all of these worlds have the most extensive and in-depth world-building. Some certainly do it better than others, such as One Piece being a lot more in-depth than something like Hunter X Hunter. Yet, either way, I like the possibilities that are set up by having a story take place in a reality that is completely different from our own, and has its own unique set of rules to abide by. No, these might not be as well-explored as the extensive mythos of The Lord of the Rings or A Song of Ice and Fire, but I appreciate the effort all the same, and even for series that do take place in what seems to be a real world setting, I like how they tend to play fast and loose with the rules of that version of our world, such as in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.

2. The Theme Of Accepting Failure And Moving Forward- While I've seen this in other genres, I find it interesting to note that a really significant portion of battle shonen have this trope. And what's more, they seem to execute it rather well, even many of the mediocre and bad ones somehow manage to at least get this element right to some extent. For one thing, it's a very good message for younger readers. Without talking down to them, it makes it plainly clear that failure is a very real thing, and it's bound to happen to any of us at some point in time. Even in mediocre sports series like Haikyuu!! or Ace of Diamond, the stand-out moments are the ones where the main characters are crushed by a grueling defeat and have to struggle with their loss and learn to move on. That was probably one of the highlight moments of Kuroko no Basket, as well, and when an actual great manga gets it right, the results are extraordinary and can really get you to feel something yourself, on an emotional level. In particular, classic manga like Dragon Ball, earlier portions of One Piece, Hunter X Hunter, and other battle shonen series have excelled at executing really strong moments where the core characters end up suffering a serious failure that they have to overcome. It really gets someone like me to want to cheer them on, even if they are just a fictional drawing on paper.

3. Over-Expressing Emotions- I once remember in an interview with Bruce Timm and his staff that were responsible for producing the Gotham Knight anime shorts, one of them mentioned how a particular strength of anime was their ability to over-emphasize/express emotional reactions in characters. Bruce Timm himself always said that with BTAS, he wanted to take full advantage of animation and do things that you couldn't portray in real-life. Shonen of many kinds have a particular tendency to do that even more than a lot more mature manga that I've read, as well as other sorts of comic books. What I enjoy about it is that many battle shonen, especially the best ones, manage to do so well in highlighting emotional points in characters and in the height of a story arc that I really feel the impact of those particular scenes. A lot of other comics have plenty of emotional moments as well, and they are great, but I rarely ever get that same sensation as something like the feeling that I get when Ippo gets his knock-out punch against a tough opponent, or that moment in Slam Dunk where Rukawa finally rewards all of Sakuragi's efforts with a moment of complete trust for the most crucial shot of the most important game of their lives, or that epic scene with Whitebeard at the end of Marineford, and too many great moments in Ashita no Joe to name. I just feel that a lot of shonen manga, once again, even some of the lesser ones, manage to really nail this on a more consistent basis that many other types of comics that I see.

4. The Concept That There Is Always Room For Self-Improvement- No, I don't like training arcs (except for in Dragon Ball), but I do love the way that battle shonen in particular seem to highlight the idea that no matter how good you think you are, there is almost always someone better around the corner, or some situation will arise where you will discover that you are indeed not as good as you think you are. However, the lasting theme is that you can always get better. It's a real test of a character's will and determination to push themselves past their perceived limits, another good message for younger readers to abide by, and on top of all of that, gives the characters and story a drive that can often also engage the reader to want to keep following them through their own personal journey. Many of the most addicting manga that I have read excel at this aspect of characterization and story-telling. For as simple as it is, Dragon Ball really embodies this theme, and is the first thing that comes to mind when I think about it.

5. In Many Cases, Your Opposition Is Not Necessarily Pure Evil- Now, admittedly there are a fair number of battle shonen that don't follow this trope, but I've seen far too many cases of it happening to not associate it with the genre. This doesn't mean that the opposition between good guys and bad guys is gray and that there is no clear right or wrong, but rather that we see that, even the bad guys have reasons and motivations for doing what they want to do. I haven't seen too many other types of comics explore this. I mean, yes, I've seen it in other non-shonen manga like Monster and Vagabond, among other things, but what I mean is that I see it so often in shonen that I can't help but associate it with the genre in some respect. Even terrible manga like the later arcs of Naruto, to its very little credit, at least have some aspect of the villains not just doing bad things for shits and giggles. Of course, their reasons and motivations are the product of terrible writing, so it doesn't really work there, but in series like Yu Yu Hakusho, Rurouni Kenshin, and various other manga where you have excellent writing backing this concept, you have some of the most truly engaging conflicts that I have ever seen in the medium of comic books. In sports manga, it makes it clear that the opposing team isn't just some group of one-dimensional ass-holes. As hard as the main characters worked, the other team worked just as hard to get to where they are. In plot-oriented battle shonen, it often leads to an interesting clash of ideals, and has lead to many of the best story arcs of all time withing the medium, like Magnostadt (the absolutely best arc of Magi), the York New City and Chimera Ant arcs, the Revenge arc of Rurouni Kenshin, and arguably the best of its kind, Yu Yu Hakusho's Chapter Black.

So, yeah, I have my problems with many tropes in the genre that I just can't stand, but let this post suffice as my testament to how excellent the genre can be when it follows key characteristics that are actually inherently good and in many cases, surprisingly enough, even seem to be done well to some extent in battle shonen manga that are usually more poorly written. Anyways, that's just my opinion. None of these things are exclusive to the genre, mind you. They just happen to be binding themes that I notice in way too many of them for it to deemed as anything other a trope of the genre. And I love all of them.