Battle Shonen Stuff

[Spark Of Spirit]

Nice list! I agree with all of them.

My personal favorite one is that no matter what craziness goes on in the story it is ultimately about the eventual triumph of good over evil. I do think that is something kids should be shown. Of course in real life good doesn't always win, and in stories it doesn't seem to be winning most of the time, but eventually and when it counts, good does come out on top. Yu Yu Hakusho, Rurouni Kenshin, Death Note, Dragon Ball, Hunter X Hunter (despite countless deaths and setbacks), and from what I've seen of Magi all contain those elements.

I would be lying if I didn't say a big part of the appeal of battle shonen to me is a knock down slug-out between good and evil where good eventually prevails. Because it is ultimately what I do enjoy seeing.

[gunswordfist]

I hear some of western comic books' best work involves antagonists being not pure evil, such as in classic x-men. my favorite comic book villains tend to be insane (the joker, two-face) or overly obsessive (lex luthor, hush) with a few exceptions (lincoln redcrow, deathstroke, drakon) so i can't really add much there. i need some recommendations, lol

[gunswordfist]

sometimes i wonder how the hell good can win in some anime stories but yes i know what will eventually happen. sometimes it's done right, sometimes it's done wrong.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Desensitized: Yes, I love the rewarding feeling that you get in a good battle shonen manga when all of the efforts and struggles of a character finally gets them the results that they deserve. It really makes it feel like the struggle was truly worth it, and also that you have to be willing to go all out to achieve what you really want.

GSF: To be clear, I'm not saying that Western comic books don't have great sympathetic or three-dimensional villains. On the contrary, I know that they do. I'm just stating that this particular thing is actually so common in shonen that it's a trope of the genre, and one that I actually happen to find endearing.

[gunswordfist]

i know, sorry for the confusion. i was trying to also say battle shonen tends to excel at that and so, it seems to do it more often than comics, from what i have seen. most comics i have read seem to be along the lines of good vs evil.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I also like good vs. evil, myself, and some of my all-time favorite villains are just pure evil, but still have a really engaging and entertaining personality. I may generally prefer more nuanced and morally ambiguous villains, but I can't deny enjoying a classic battle of the best of humanity facing off against the worst of it.

[gunswordfist]

amen. i was just thinking the same. my top 10 has a few guys that are almost purely evil (skinner sweet) or insane (the joker, again) but are very charismatic. pretty much likable in a dysfunctional kind of way but you wouldn't actually want to be around them. lol

[LumRanmaYasha]

Bit late to comment, but great list! Those are things I appreciate in the genre when done well too.

I prefer villains who have more defined motivations and goals for doing what they are doing than just purely evil ones. Even if it's something really simple, I've always found those kind of villains more interesting. One of the reasons I've always enjoyed the first Majin Buu as a villain was the idea that he did all the things he did only because he didn't know it was wrong to do those things, because he was never told by anyone that it was before. And when Mr. Satan befriends him, and becomes someone he respects and trusts, and tells him that what he was doing is bad, he decides to stop out of respect for his friendship with him. I loved the concept of that as a kid, and it's a big part why I have a soft spot for that character even now.

I also like it when good people are rewarded from their efforts and the bad get punished for their misdeeds. The example of this that immediately comes to mind to me might just be the ending of Stone Ocean. By all accounts, the main villain has basically won. But as a consequence of something he did earlier, the only hero left to stop him receives a means to do so, and while he isn't able to undo what the main villain has done he is able to move things into a different direction that ultimately rewards that hero and punishes the villain. The satisfaction from how it plays out is a big part of why it's my favorite ending to any part in JoJo's and a manga in general.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Thanks, CX.

In general, I find that battle shonen manga often excel at those rewarding moments of triumph for the hero, more so than even other genres. Goku defeating King Piccolo, Joe pulling out that triple-cross-counter against Wolf, Shouhoku getting the last-second victory against the undefeated Sannoh; those are all such classic, iconic monents that still leave an impact on me to this day.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

So, while we've briefly touched upon it before, what are everyone's thoughts on villains, specifically in the context of the shonen genre? What qualities separate the good ones from the bad ones?

For instance, we all know that villains like Sensui, Enishi, and Meruem are classics for not being one-dimensionally evil and actually being nuanced characters in their own right. Yet on the opposite end of the spectrum, we have comically awful villains like Sasuke or Black Zetsu (among many, many others) that try to have more depth to their characters, but fail miserably at it through bad writing. But, what exactly makes it bad? Why does one example work over the other. I find that to be an interesting discussion point.

Clearly it's not just depth, because on the contrary, we also love remarkably simple yet still endearing villains like Freeza, Dio Brando, and Sir Crocodile, among others. But for all of those kinds, we have tripe like Hody Jones or Akashi. Why exactly is that, and again, what makes the difference there?

For the sake of recognition, I used more popular WSJ villains as examples, but please feel free to bring up other shonen villains as discussion points. And this is just meant to be interesting and fun. Let's not get too heated up and make this super critical and analytical. It's more about giving reasons for why we consider various archetypes of the genre to either be good or bad.

[Spark Of Spirit]

The worst villains are the ones that have no motivation. Not for being evil (there are many reasons someone can be evil, and they don't all need exploring) but for not having reasons for doing the things they're doing.

I'd actually a villain have no reason given for why they're evil than have a poorly written and hamfisted reason inserted in (His mother didn't buy him that toy train when he was a kid! Genocide time). I guess that's why I'm not big on flashback arcs. Anyway, I'm more interested into why they are engaging in the current plot and how that wraps into who the hero is and who the villain is.

Let the actions of the character speak, not their background story.

[LumRanmaYasha]

The latest Weekly Manga Recap review might be of interest to some people here.

I enjoyed the series much more than they did, but I can't really disagree with a lot of the points they made about the flaws in the premise and structure of it.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I didn't know where else to post this, but: http://www.toonzone.net/forums/anime-forum/433101-last-naruto-movie-terrible-movie-spoilers.html#.VTaqBRmsHqA

This thread just made my fucking day. I haven't laughed so hard in a long time.

I'm not even sure what's funniest about it. The fact that the topic creator is putting so much emphasis on shipping characters that were terribly written and barely had any chemistry to be go with, the fact that he's still right about all of his criticisms despite it being incredibly ridiculous to pay the series this much mind in the first place, or seeing JTP trying his damn hardest to defend literally anything Naruto related as if it were some misunderstood artful masterpiece. Either way, it had me laughing in tears.

[Foggle]

I'm not a fan of shit-talking other forums or their posters on here anymore... but that thread is gold. Pure gold. I want it printed out and framed on my wall. Absolutely beautiful.

[Spark Of Spirit]

This is definitely the best Weekly Shounen JUMP film I've seen. If only there had been room for more!