Battle Shonen Stuff

[gunswordfist]

So, you know what I just realized is the main problem with 90% of currently running shonen series? The protagonists are EXTREMELY BORING characters! Honestly, I hate how every author decides to make their main character some goody-two-shoes who acts like he's above any form of sin. And no, just having them do some dirty things in comedic scenes or having them labeled as brainless oafs for not thinking and rushing into things sometimes doesn't count for shit. In order for me to care about a main character, they need to have clear flaws and weaknesses as well as strengths, rather than just being so damn perfect all the time, and they should have some things about them that are less than noble that end up having clear consequences within the story-line. It makes them more interesting especially since part of what would keep me reading it so see how they solve their problems, and I don't just mean something about their character that is merely resolved in an after-school style episode or a couple of chapters in the manga, but instead something that ends up becoming a central theme within the main story-line.

It really ticks me off because I somehow get the feeling that most shonen mangaka are under the impression that they are making these character likable, but really they are doing nothing more than goody-goody little dip-shits that bore the snot out of me or just plain annoy the fuck out of me. Either way this shit needs to stop.

Amen, brother.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

So, I was browsing through youtube watching various clips of anime fights in shonen series that I hold in high-regard (yeah, I do stuff like that sometimes), and then I came upon this gem of of a fight that I haven't seen in ages (in animated form, that is, as I've recently been re-reading the manga a lot, lately).

You know, on top of everything else we've mentioned on this thread about "battle shonen" series, I realized that hardly anything was discussed about one of the key elements of what makes a battle shonen a battle shonen, and that's quite bluntly, well....battles. Its something that people commonly look down on as mindless and boring in most modern shonen, but its easy to forget that they were once highlights of shonen series. And honestly, when they are done right they can be really intense and exciting to watch.

That battle I linked to from Rurouni Kenshin is a prime example of how to do a proper battle in a shonen series. First off the animation is really fluid and top-notch for a mostly low-budget adaptation like RK. It also shows a lot of care and attention was put into translating the action from the manga while not making it feel necessarily like a manga, fully taking advantage of the fact that this was being portrayed in an animated medium. What I like most about it, though, is that its short and to the point and doesn't drag on for multiple episodes, but it still contains the core elements of what makes a shonen fight unique among action scenes in comics and animation, and that's stuff like clearly slowing down the action to point out elements of strategy (but not over-explaining the hell out of stuff, which is a trap that most shonen series fall into). I also like how it catches you off guard in many instances having one character seemingly having the upper hand only for the opponent to strategically turn the tables with a hidden surprise attack that actually feels well thought out and works in the context of the fight, rather than seeming like BS that came out of nowhere (another problem that most modern shonen series have). On top of all that you get a sense of extreme combat depth, like the opponents are evenly matched and have tons of skill and are really serious life-threats to one another.

To me, on top of everything else most modern shonen series especially fail at getting the battles right. I honestly dread reading them in most cases because they are just derivative and boring and the more I see them the more I see how lazy mangaka are getting with one of the most important elements of these types of shonen series. There is actually and art and level of talent that goes into scripting a good battle scene, believe it or not, and the fights in series like Rurouni Kenshin and Yu  Yu Hakusho, among other things, are among the examples of how to get it right and keep the fighting actually interesting.

I've read hundreds of chapters worth of Naruto, Bleach, D. Gray-Man, and various other popular shonen series and honestly I can say that battles in those series are rarely ever better than snooze-worthy.

Now of course Rurouni Kenshin is just one example, but I can easily link to tons of great fights that are great and interesting to watch for numerous different reasons. That said I think I got the point across best with that particular fight scene.

[gunswordfist]

So, I was browsing through youtube watching various clips of anime fights in shonen series that I hold in high-regard (yeah, I do stuff like that sometimes), and then I came upon this gem of of a fight that I haven't seen in ages (in animated form, that is, as I've recently been re-reading the manga a lot, lately).

You know, on top of everything else we've mentioned on this thread about "battle shonen" series, I realized that hardly anything was discussed about one of the key elements of what makes a battle shonen a battle shonen, and that's quite bluntly, well....battles. Its something that people commonly look down on as mindless and boring in most modern shonen, but its easy to forget that they were once highlights of shonen series. And honestly, when they are done right they can be really intense and exciting to watch.

That battle I linked to from Rurouni Kenshin is a prime example of how to do a proper battle in a shonen series. First off the animation is really fluid and top-notch for a mostly low-budget adaptation like RK. It also shows a lot of care and attention was put into translating the action from the manga while not making it feel necessarily like a manga, fully taking advantage of the fact that this was being portrayed in an animated medium. What I like most about it, though, is that its short and to the point and doesn't drag on for multiple episodes, but it still contains the core elements of what makes a shonen fight unique among action scenes in comics and animation, and that's stuff like clearly slowing down the action to point out elements of strategy (but not over-explaining the hell out of stuff, which is a trap that most shonen series fall into). I also like how it catches you off guard in many instances having one character seemingly having the upper hand only for the opponent to strategically turn the tables with a hidden surprise attack that actually feels well thought out and works in the context of the fight, rather than seeming like BS that came out of nowhere (another problem that most modern shonen series have). On top of all that you get a sense of extreme combat depth, like the opponents are evenly matched and have tons of skill and are really serious life-threats to one another.

To me, on top of everything else most modern shonen series especially fail at getting the battles right. I honestly dread reading them in most cases because they are just derivative and boring and the more I see them the more I see how lazy mangaka are getting with one of the most important elements of these types of shonen series. There is actually and art and level of talent that goes into scripting a good battle scene, believe it or not, and the fights in series like Rurouni Kenshin and Yu  Yu Hakusho, among other things, are among the examples of how to get it right and keep the fighting actually interesting.

I've read hundreds of chapters worth of Naruto, Bleach, D. Gray-Man, and various other popular shonen series and honestly I can say that battles in those series are rarely ever better than snooze-worthy.

Now of course Rurouni Kenshin is just one example, but I can easily link to tons of great fights that are great and interesting to watch for numerous different reasons. That said I think I got the point across best with that particular fight scene.

I KNEW IT! I remember you saying you were reading RK and I looked up this video before and recognized it just from seeing best anime fights in my tab. This is the best part of the best part of Rurouni Kenshin imo. The most fluid fight in the series. RK neededmore well animated fights.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Yeah, it really is a shame that more anime fights (even in RK) can't be as fluidly animated as this one was. I mean, back when I saw it on Toonami (back when I wasn't even a fan of RK), when I first saw this episode the action in it blew me away. Before this point I hadn't seen ANYTHING even close to this in terms of action scenes in an animated series. It wasn't just the animation of course, as even in the manga it was still a great fight just for how intense it was. I mean, Saito actually ends up using his belt as a weapon for crying out loud, and then tries to break Kenshin's neck after his sword breaks. Shonen fights just can't come close to this level of intensity no matter how hard they try, these days.

[gunswordfist]

Instead they try to instead fights by pulling powers out of their ass. TIME FOR CHIDORI X12 NO. 45!

[Angus]

Among the more recent stuff I've been watching (which is still some years old):
Fate/stay night has some decent battles, but still employs quite a few cliches like the samurai finishing move and the blade licker. But one of the characters uses Yusuke's spirit gun. 
Fairy Tail has battles in the manga many of which end up in knock outs but whenever I read one of them I picture the anime being much more appropriate in presentation.

[Rynnec]

I always thought that Fate/Stay Night was more like a Seinen with Shounen elements. Similar to Trigun (which did start off as a shounen) and the later seasons of Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha (which is even more shounen-like).

The only shounen maga I've been reading (Naruto and Bleach I only read spoilers and only occasionly read chapters if they're interesting enough) are Psyren(though I haven't read a chapter in months) and Negima. Granted, the latter doesn't become a full-on shounen until 10-volumes in apparently, but the series takes a rise in quality whenever it does focus more on its shounen elements that it's almost painful whenver it goes back to its mind-numbing harem aspects.

[Angus]

Yep, it's a seinen, even a harem at times, but it's also centered about a battle royale, and seems to be more tastefully done than, say, Sekirei.

[Foggle]

I always thought that Fate/Stay Night was more like a Seinen with Shounen elements.

The first two routes are most definitely not seinen. Fate and UBW are standard battle shounen stories with prominent harem elements (especially in Fate). Heaven's Feel and Fate/Zero could arguably be considered seinen due to their more brutal violence and inclusion of actual romance elements instead of harem shit, but I'd say they're closer to just being darker than average shounen stories a la Death Note. The pornographic sex scenes in the VN do betray its target audience categorization somewhat, but at its heart F/SN is a battle shounen with lots of talking.

[gunswordfist]

ANGUS! Where has the only person I respect here been?

[Angus]

I've been alright. Editing Wikipedia articles and hanging out on MAL these months since I can't seem to do much on tv.com when they totally screwed up access to forums for me.

F/SN main guy has some decent development, even if most the story arcs aren't terribly new. Funny that you mention Trigun, I was thinking the same thing about a character who tries to stick to his principles when everything else around him changes. I find when the characters help get you immersed in their world, like you could be that actual character and come up with resourceful solutions, that gets to be fun, especially something like Initial D where you'd want to hop in and drive down some mountain roads.

[Foggle]

Oh lord.

[Rynnec]

Eh, not too suprising really. Naruto's been doing rather well on CR, so it's only natural that they'd pick up the spin-off. No matter how bad it is.

[Foggle]

I don't mean Crunchy Roll picking it up, I mean the fact that it exists at all.

[Rynnec]

Ah, my mistake then.XD

While I can't properly judge it without having seen/read it, from what I've been hearing, I'm pretty sure its humour won't settle with me (apparently, a dog pees on a girls head).