Battle Shonen Stuff

[Spark Of Spirit]

I despise asspull powerups out of nowhere and invincible/omniscient villains with no personality other than "smug master planner" and poorly-explained/pretentious motivations.

I'm also not too fond of "emo" rivals.

I kind of think the rival concept has been way too overdone. Friendly competition is nice, but not when it takes away from the story. Kenshin and Saito was a good rivalry, but I think Naruto and Sasuke might have ruined it for years to come.

Yeah, it's characters like Sasuke that really drag the concept down. Rival's like Vegeta, Saito, Grimmjow, and Char are the ones I prefer. But for the most part, rivalries are better when they start out as one of the central focuses of the story (like in S-CRY-Ed) rather than derail it (like in Naruto).

To add to your power-up annoyance, I dislike when the character tells his enemy how his attack works. That is beyond stupid for anyone in a fight to do.

Completely agreed. Why can't more mangaka just explain them in chapter notes or have another character figure out how the power works by themselves and then explain it. If there was one thing Bleach did right, it was having Gin outright lie about how his powers work to his enemy.

Oh yeah! I remember when he did that. I remembered thinking that was actually smart of him to do. Why would he tell him his weakness? He's not an idiot.

You know how the best way to explain it to the audience? Yusuke Vs. Rando in YYH. We don't find out why he lost until the fight is over. Because if Yusuke would have told him, he would have been unrealistically moronic. And he would have been killed. Having the character figure it out on his own (or not) makes for more interesting battles.

That's the way it should be done, in my opinion. Save the explanations for later, the main character should not be telling his opponent how to beat him.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

You know how the best way to explain it to the audience? Yusuke Vs. Rando in YYH. We don't find out why he lost until the fight is over. Because if Yusuke would have told him, he would have been unrealistically moronic. And he would have been killed. Having the character figure it out on his own (or not) makes for more interesting battles.

To be fair, though, Yusuke himself only defeated Rando by accident, and didn't even realize that he had gotten some swampy stuff stuck in his ears until AFTER Rando cast his spell and had it reversed on him (at least in the manga, anyways), so Yusuke couldn't even reveal what he did until after he defeated Rando since even he didn't realize it until the battle was pretty much over.

Now, Kurama on the other hand has several fights in which he does exactly what you say, in that he defeats his enemies and THEN reveals his strategy to them after they are defeated or just as he is about to finish them off and they are helpless to do anything about it (which is why him killing Roto is one of the most bad-ass scenes ever).

Also, this is yet another area where I have to give some MAJOR props to Togashi. There are some instances where he breaks this in HXH, but in those cases it usually makes sense, like with Hisoka sort of hinting at how his powers work to give Gon a fair chance to strike him since Gon didn't stand a chance of beating him, anyways. But what I really wanted to point out was stuff like Kurapika pretty much hinging on the fact that the Genei Ryodan didn't know how his powers worked (he revealed into to Uvogin, but that was when the guy was pretty much about to die), and stuff like how in a recently adapted part of the Chimera Ant arc in the HXH anime, Gon told Killua that it would be better to try and defeat Knuckle and Shoot without finding out what their powers are first, and his rationale for that was because even if they beat them and got the right to go back into NGL to fight the Chimera Ant army with the top-class Hunters, their opponents in that area would not be stupid enough to reveal their powers to them, so they would have to be able to fight opponents without fully understanding how their abilities worked. That's some freaking smart logic and writing right there. Thank you again, Togashi.

That's the way it should be done, in my opinion. Save the explanations for later, the main character should not be telling his opponent how to beat him.

I'm also honestly OK with keeping the discussion to characters talking about it on the sidelines, away from the action. It actually feels kind of realistic, in a way. What I mean is that sometimes when I'm forced to watch sports or poker games with some of my friends who know I'm not into that stuff, they do try and help me along by explaining the strategies going on between opponents and generally how they work against each other, so in that regard I can find it believable for characters to do that during a fight in a shonen series. Its just completely idiotic for a character to reveal to his opponent exactly what his strategy is and give his opponent the best possible chance to counter it, unless the character is just literally that cocky as a personality trait, which is still pretty stupid, of course.

[Rynnec]

I'll also say that I'm tired of giving main characters "Super Modes" only to reduce them to simply another power upgrade that they use for almost every fight onward. Really takes away the specialness said super modes have.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Ever since Super Saiyan it feels like every shonen does this now, right? Of course not realizing that the most powerful un-fused character in Dragon Ball is Mystic Gohan who has no transformation and is full strength out of the gate. That's also not putting into account that the first Super Saiyan only appears at the climax of the first half of the Z series and before that transformations are used very sparingly.

Transformations feel like they've gotten too elaborate and overblown in shonen to the point where it feels it might as well be sentai. Naruto has too many to count, One Piece has Gear 2, and Bleach even got in on the action to an extent. Just stick to the character and the natural extent of their skills. Transformations just feel like a cheap way to add power to characters without having to train them first.

[Rynnec]

Didn't Oda try to give Gear 2 a drawback by making it eat at Luffy's lifespan or something? I know Naruto definitely tried to give a similar drawback. I prefer it when the character only uses their super transformations in extreme situations, like against the main villain or something.

I also have a love/hate relationship with Superpowered Evil Sides. When done correctly they can be pretty entertaining to watch and cause some good internal conflict, when done poorly, ehhhhhh.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

In defense of Gear 2, it has a caveat in that it really drains Luffy's power incredibly quickly, and if he uses it too long he won't even be able to move after a certain point due to overexerting his body. So at least that ability has a weakness, and thus he only ever uses it sparingly. To me, that's the way a transformation/power-up should be. Something that has just as many negative aspects to it as it does positive, forcing them to only be used in the most desperate of situations. And on that note, when Luffy even does have to resort to using that, in most cases its only to buy some time rather than actually helping him defeat an enemy, since if he needs to resort to it in the first place its usually because its an enemy that's much stronger than him even in that state.

The kind of power-ups that I hate the most are the ones that come out of nowhere, like a certain one from Hunter X Hunter.

Even YYH had Yusuke get a Deus Ex Machina sort of power-up, but to be fair that was only a one-time deal, so I don't hold it against the series. I do think that the most interesting fights are when the hero IS clearly at a disadvantage in being significantly weaker and less skilled than his opponent, forcing him to rely on strategy to win. When Yu Yu Hakusho and Hunter X Hunter are at their best, you get some of the best fights in shonen history.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Alright, now I might just be talking out of my ass here, but I vaguely recall a season of Power Rangers in which one Ranger got cursed with some tattoo of a snake or something, and that each time he morphed into a Power Ranger, the Snake would move closer to his neck, and if he morphed too much it would eventually reach his neck and kill him (or just take away his powers since its a kids show, I really don't remember). At any rate, putting the show itself aside, that's a fucking cool idea. It makes the use of a transformation multiple times interesting, as you can transform, but now you have to be REALLY careful and selective of where you choose to use it, as you only have a limited amount to go on.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I'm not going to defend Yusuke Vs. Sensui because the rest of the fight was great, but I never liked how he threw demon blood in there like that and didn't even let Yusuke be the one to defeat him. It doesn't hurt the arc or the series, but I could have done without that whole demon blood plotline.

On the flipside, Kurama eventually learned to not use his transformation as a crutch and apparently surpassed it by the show's end.

Alright, now I might just be talking out of my ass here, but I vaguely recall a season of Power Rangers in which one Ranger got cursed with some tattoo of a snake or something, and that each time he morphed into a Power Ranger, the Snake would move closer to his neck, and if he morphed too much it would eventually reach his neck and kill him (or just take away his powers since its a kids show, I really don't remember). At any rate, putting the show itself aside, that's a fucking cool idea. It makes the use of a transformation multiple times interesting, as you can transform, but now you have to be REALLY careful and selective of where you choose to use it, as you only have a limited amount to go on.

That sounds familiar, but I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to. You might want to consult RSW on that.

[Rynnec]

That one plotline was in Lightspeed Rescue,  and the one it was happening to was the sixth Ranger for that season.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Yeah, that sounds about right. I don't really remember much about Power Rangers, but my basic point was how cool that one idea was. I wouldn't mind seeing it used in other series as well. It just puts so much more weight into using a transformation, and puts A LOT of pressure on the character who can transform to have to make the decision whether to do so or not.

That said, while I am not the hugest fan of the transformation trope myself, I also have to admit that I find something incredibly appealing about them, so I don't hate the trope quite as much as you guys do, but rather feel that its just mishandled. I still geek out at stuff like Saint Seiya and the like, though, so I can't really ever turn on the whole transformation thing in general, but I do hate Deus Ex Machina power-ups.

[Rynnec]

Oh I definitely don't have a problem with the transformation trope in and of itself. Just when it's overused like in most shounen.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Oh, for stuff like Saint Seiya and Ronin Warriors it's fine since it's their actual armor, (just like in sentai) but it gets annoying when they start throwing in different armor and weapon types on top of it to pad out the action scenes instead of relying on the characters to find a strategy to beat the enemy instead of just picking the right accessory to do the job.

Even Ronin Warriors found ways to work around their limitations and even the White Armor had to be used smart to be effective. I especially think of how Rowan handled the entirety of the second half of the show after his comrades got captured. He could have been next to useless, or even captured, but he fought smart and proved himself to be one of the best fighters in the group and one of the most valuable.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Oh, alright, I misinterpreted what you guys were saying. I like stuff like armor and the like, but only if its their actual base fighting state or a special transformation that has limited use. Other than that, yeah, I hate the over-use of power-ups in most shonen series.

Another trope which I have come to detest:

There always seems to be about just as many bad guys as good guys on the opposing team of villains, and thus it leads into sectioned off one-on-one fights between each individual member and their specific counter-part.

Now, I need to specify this one. I don't mind it when its used right, as in when it makes sense. In a tournament arc its fine, or if circumstances logically make it turn out that way. And example of how to do this right is in Yu Yu Hakusho. In the Chapter Black arc, the heroes wisely try their best to stick together. The enemies just wittingly find ways to divide them up in their favor, and even then the enemies have unique abilities leading to unique fights that make sense in why they needed to fight everyone one-on-one.

Something like Naruto or Beelzebub have plenty of examples of how to do it wrong. In the Sasuke Chase arc each member of the team split-up to fight one of the enemies trying to hold them back to not have to slow down everyone else in chasing down Sasuke. I say bull-shit to that, though, because if each of these guys could take on other ninjas like that in one-on-one fights, then it only makes logical sense that in a 5-on-1 scenario, you could curb-stomp their ass and move on in a matter of a few minutes at most, and then rinse and repeat the process again until nobody is left to oppose you and you don't lose any of your team. Sasuke wouldn't get too far ahead, and when they eventually caught up to him, it would be 5-on-1 yet again, and he'd get his ass kicked.

I just don't like that trope when its used all wrong, and in most modern shonen, it usually is.

[Spark Of Spirit]

The one on one fight thing is pretty overused as a whole. I still think Piccolo and Goku Vs. Raditz, everyone Vs. Nappa and Vegeta, and everyone Vs. the Ginyu Force then Freeza, were some of the best brawls in DBZ but you rarely see it ever come to that anymore. It's like it always has to be villains show up and cause trouble and are way more powerful than heroes > heroes train > heroes seek villains out > each character fights their doppelganger > leaders fight for 50 chapters too long > next arc.

That's actually why the Saint Beast arc is usually the least favorite part of YYH since it totally goes against every other fight in the series outside of ones with special rules like the tournaments and zones. Everybody just stands by and lets everyone else fight while they watch.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I especially hate it when characters perfectly capable of fighting stand on the side-line and watch their ally in a one-on-one fight while not in the setting of a tournament but instead in the situation of a life or death battle, and the reason given for this happens to be something along the lines of: "I cannot interfere, because it is his fight."

Fuck that shit! Get off your lazy ass and help your pal not die, you ass-wipe!