Battle Shonen Stuff

[Spark Of Spirit]

3. Kuroko's Basketball - Weekly Shonen Jump (Shueshia)

This is the best thing currently running in Jump. I'm glad to see that it's doing so well in sales, too.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I know most people on this forum don't like the empty-headed protagonist that fights for friends because friends are nice and has no real ambition except to be the best, but what type of protagonist would you like to to see more of?

The obvious answer is more like *insert character here* but I want to go a bit further than that. What do you think a protagonist should be striving for and what goal should he have in mind? What type of weaknesses would you think such a character could have and what strengths? Do you think this protagonist (notice I haven't said 'hero' yet, I'm including Light Yagami types) should drive the plot with said weaknesses and the story develop from there to strengthen himself or should the character simply be a member of the plot sort of one cog in the machine that just happens to be the biggest threat to the antagonist?

My main question is about approach to characters. For shonen, the only rule is that it has to relate to kids and preteens in some way, but that doesn't preclude teenagers (like Yusuke) or adults (like Kenshin) as the main characters. What do you think would really resonate for a main character in a shonen?

[The Shadow Gentleman]

I can't say there's any particular type I'd like to see more. Really, I just want more variety with shonen protagonists. I wouldn't even mind an empty headed, goody two-shoes as long as they're flesh out and written well.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I don't necessarily mind if a character starts out as an empty-vessel of sorts. They may be dunder-heads at first, but it feels rewarding to experience them grow as characters, and by that I don't mean in terms of the strength of their fists or whatnot, but by the strength of their character. I like to see them make mistakes, and more importantly, LEARN form their mistakes. Basically I like to see them become better people.

For instance, Yusuke is the perfect example of this. In the early segments of Yu Yu Hakusho, he is just a hot-headed punk with a good heart, but doesn't really use his natural talents and strength to anyone's real benefit other than his own. After his revival, however, he slowly but surely starts down the path of growing as a person. He gets physically stronger, sure, but more than that he has to deal with much tougher situations, both in terms of having tough opponents to beat as well as harsh mental barriers to overcome. One of the prime examples of this is in his fight with Doctor. If this were Yusuke earlier on in the series, he'd just be a hot-head and not think to much about how to solve the situation he was in. He'd just punch away and Doctor and be frustrated that he wouldn't become unconscious. However by the time he actually does fight Doctor in the series, he realizes right away that he could easily defeat him, but to stop him would mean to kill him, and that's where Yusuke's real dilemma and struggle arises from. You can tell that to even ponder such things from the get-go, that he had come a long way as a character. Another great example is when Yusuke had the choice to stay back in Demon World initially after Sensui's death to meet Raizen, but he held off on it because he knew his friends and family were far more important to him than a personal grudge he had just developed. Yusuke starts out as a typical shounen protagonist, but he is a very different character by the end of the series.

You also have characters like Kenshin, who have already undergone a lot of development in their past, but they are still far from perfect in the present, as well. Kenshin learns the value of being able to let go of your past and living in the present as he gets to know his new friends and allies, but he also realizes that some old wounds do have to be dealt with, especially when it involves other people. When Enishi emerged as a villain in the Revenge arc, Kenshin knew that he had a responsibility to at least try and help set Enishi on the right path. It would have been easier to get pissed at him and just defeat him in battle to leave him for prison, but by the end of the series Kenshin realized that it wasn't what Tomoe would have wanted, and more importantly, it's not really what he wanted, either. He also learned that his ideals wouldn't always work, so even though he himself would never bring himself to kill, you really got the sense that he never lost respect for people like Saito and Aoshi even if they still chose to do so, because he understood that at the end of the day, they were just following their own ideals, as well.

Really, there is no set principle for what makes a good protagonist. However, to make them interesting, there has to be some element of relate-ability to the character from the get-go. If you just make them an utter bad-ass who destroys every obstacle in their path with ease, then they just become boring, and in many cases downright unlikable. If you make them a character with both a set of distinct advantages and disadvantages to work with (like any normal human being), and have them grow to try and overcome the weaknesses they have as a character (once again, both physical and mental), then I think you have a better chance of making a more memorable and interesting protagonist out of that. They should be someone who starts out like a person we could identify with, and eventually grow into a person that we in some way aspire to be like.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Oh, and I could've also mentioned characters like Onizuka from SJG/GTO, or Takato from Digimon Tamers, or even Ippo from HnI, but I think you guys all get the point of what I mean, regardless.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I can't say there's any particular type I'd like to see more. Really, I just want more variety with shonen protagonists. I wouldn't even mind an empty headed, goody two-shoes as long as they're flesh out and written well.

Do you mean better motives, background, power-set, or just general attitude? What might help with better variety is for shonen authors to read more books and watch older adventure movies for character and setting ideas.

But I'm talking about drive, mainly. All my favorite Shonen works have a main character that has a real drive to stop the 'bad' guy beyond because they're 'good'. I think that's an element you don't see too often in shonen (or most anime) these days.

It's probably one of the reasons I really like Kuroko No Basket because the main character simply wants to prove that he matters, his goal is not to personally be the best player of all time, just be the best that he can be to help his team succeed and to show that his goal has merit. I relate to that, and I think most kids do as well. There's something there beyond beating the bad guy because he's bad.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

It's probably one of the reasons I really like Kuroko No Basket because the main character simply wants to prove that he matters, his goal is not to personally be the best player of all time, just be the best that he can be to help his team succeed and to show that his goal has merit. I relate to that, and I think most kids do as well. There's something there beyond beating the bad guy because he's bad.

I like Kuroko and all, but he's a bit too static as a character, IMO. He does change as the series progresses, but that's mainly only after they lose their first big game as a team. After that, his character has some nice growth, and even admits some of his faults, but after that he doesn't change much. His development is quick, rather than gradual.

Actually, on that note, while I have grown utterly tired of HSDK, and am downright disgusted with where the manga ended up, I will give it credit for one thing, in that I think Kenichi's growth was actually handled fairly well. He's a prissy teenager who has absolutely no back-bone at the beginning of the series, and he doesn't become brave or anything right after that, either. He slowly starts becoming a bit more courageous every so often as the series progresses, though, and it got to the point where he barely ever got scared of anything anymore, and even was one of the people rushing into dangerous situations without even being prompted to by anyone else, and it didn't happen in just one single character moment, but instead came about gradually as the series progressed. Now, of course, all of the characters in that manga went to shit, but for a while it was actually doing alright, so I felt that was at least worth mentioning.

Ippo from HnI is probably a better example of Kenichi's type of character, but I still hesitate praising him too much yet, since I still have a long way to go before I catch up with that series, so I still don't know if there are any stumbles in his character development along the way. As it's been handled so far, though, he's easily my favorite shounen sports series protagonist.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I don't necessarily mind if a character starts out as an empty-vessel of sorts. They may be dunder-heads at first, but it feels rewarding to experience them grow as characters, and by that I don't mean in terms of the strength of their fists or whatnot, but by the strength of their character. I like to see them make mistakes, and more importantly, LEARN form their mistakes. Basically I like to see them become better people.

For instance, Yusuke is the perfect example of this. In the early segments of Yu Yu Hakusho, he is just a hot-headed punk with a good heart, but doesn't really use his natural talents and strength to anyone's real benefit other than his own. After his revival, however, he slowly but surely starts down the path of growing as a person. He gets physically stronger, sure, but more than that he has to deal with much tougher situations, both in terms of having tough opponents to beat as well as harsh mental barriers to overcome. One of the prime examples of this is in his fight with Doctor. If this were Yusuke earlier on in the series, he'd just be a hot-head and not think to much about how to solve the situation he was in. He'd just punch away and Doctor and be frustrated that he wouldn't become unconscious. However by the time he actually does fight Doctor in the series, he realizes right away that he could easily defeat him, but to stop him would mean to kill him, and that's where Yusuke's real dilemma and struggle arises from. You can tell that to even ponder such things from the get-go, that he had come a long way as a character. Another great example is when Yusuke had the choice to stay back in Demon World initially after Sensui's death to meet Raizen, but he held off on it because he knew his friends and family were far more important to him than a personal grudge he had just developed. Yusuke starts out as a typical shounen protagonist, but he is a very different character by the end of the series.

You also have characters like Kenshin, who have already undergone a lot of development in their past, but they are still far from perfect in the present, as well. Kenshin learns the value of being able to let go of your past and living in the present as he gets to know his new friends and allies, but he also realizes that some old wounds do have to be dealt with, especially when it involves other people. When Enishi emerged as a villain in the Revenge arc, Kenshin knew that he had a responsibility to at least try and help set Enishi on the right path. It would have been easier to get pissed at him and just defeat him in battle to leave him for prison, but by the end of the series Kenshin realized that it wasn't what Tomoe would have wanted, and more importantly, it's not really what he wanted, either. He also learned that his ideals wouldn't always work, so even though he himself would never bring himself to kill, you really got the sense that he never lost respect for people like Saito and Aoshi even if they still chose to do so, because he understood that at the end of the day, they were just following their own ideals, as well.

Really, there is no set principle for what makes a good protagonist. However, to make them interesting, there has to be some element of relate-ability to the character from the get-go. If you just make them an utter bad-ass who destroys every obstacle in their path with ease, then they just become boring, and in many cases downright unlikable. If you make them a character with both a set of distinct advantages and disadvantages to work with (like any normal human being), and have them grow to try and overcome the weaknesses they have as a character (once again, both physical and mental), then I think you have a better chance of making a more memorable and interesting protagonist out of that. They should be someone who starts out like a person we could identify with, and eventually grow into a person that we in some way aspire to be like.

Gon is the perfect example of taking the generic shonen boy character and making him original. Gon actually becomes physically stronger as he goes along, but I actually think he becomes worse as a person at the same time (while Killua is the opposite) which makes an interesting twist on the old cliche. He grows increasingly selfish and jerk-ish while still keeping in line with where he came from in the beginning. But at the same time, I don't really like Gon and find he's my least favorite character in HxH and right now I wouldn't care if he left the story entirely whenever Togashi starts up again. Whereas in Yu Yu Hakusho I enjoyed all four of the main characters almost equally despite them all being quite varied and having different goals yet I always rooted for them to succeed. I think he made a gamble with making a character like Gon a main character, but I salute him for trying something new with an old idea even if I find at this point the cliche is not worth exploring anymore.

Even Kenshiro who is basically walking karma has a motive and goal that makes us want to cheer for him to succeed. If he didn't have the same motives he wouldn't be a good protagonist but at the same time he wouldn't be Kenshiro and the story would be worse.

I think this:

They should be someone who starts out like a person we could identify with, and eventually grow into a person that we in some way aspire to be like.

is a good way to put it. The story needs to be character-based in that the main character has to be someone we can identify with, but eventually should grow towards something bigger than when he started otherwise the character becomes flat and boring and tends to flat-line the story in the process.

I would guess the main problem with shonen protagonists now is that they just make characters that they think kids will find cool and not characters that kids would find compelling enough to follow on the journey.

[Rynnec]

I'd like to see more "I do what I want/don't mess with me" anti-heroic types as protagonists. The kind of character that has a lot of flaws and emotional baggage (without coming across as overly angsty or "emo") and can act like a jerk at times, and may not even consider themselves heroic at all, and indeed may be driven by non-heroic motives like revenge, money, or even just looking for a good fight, but ultimately have a heart of gold that drives them to pull off acts of heroism and kindness whenever they can.

More laid-back and/or friendly protagonists would be nice too.

I also echo what E-K and Shadowgentleman said.

[Spark Of Spirit]

It's probably one of the reasons I really like Kuroko No Basket because the main character simply wants to prove that he matters, his goal is not to personally be the best player of all time, just be the best that he can be to help his team succeed and to show that his goal has merit. I relate to that, and I think most kids do as well. There's something there beyond beating the bad guy because he's bad.

I like Kuroko and all, but he's a bit too static as a character, IMO. He does change as the series progresses, but that's mainly only after they lose their first big game as a team. After that, his character has some nice growth, and even admits some of his faults, but after that he doesn't change much. His development is quick, rather than gradual.

Yeah, the character development could be stronger, but in general he's a character I like following. From the first chapter I could tell that he was someone who would want to do something different and that lead me following along. Unlike in battle shonen #5926 where he's just a hot head who wants to not be beaten so easily be the cool rival character.

Actually, on that note, while I have grown utterly tired of HSDK, and am downright disgusted with where the manga ended up, I will give it credit for one thing, in that I think Kenichi's growth was actually handled fairly well. He's a prissy teenager who has absolutely no back-bone at the beginning of the series, and he doesn't become brave or anything right after that, either. He slowly starts becoming a bit more courageous every so often as the series progresses, though, and it got to the point where he barely ever got scared of anything anymore, and even was one of the people rushing into dangerous situations without even being prompted to by anyone else, and it didn't happen in just one single character moment, but instead came about gradually as the series progressed. Now, of course, all of the characters in that manga went to shit, but for a while it was actually doing alright, so I felt that was at least worth mentioning.

Ippo from HnI is probably a better example of Kenichi's type of character, but I still hesitate praising him too much yet, since I still have a long way to go before I catch up with that series, so I still don't know if there are any stumbles in his character development along the way. As it's been handled so far, though, he's easily my favorite shounen sports series protagonist.

Kenichi hasn't changed one bit since D+D just like the story hasn't. The author gave up long ago.

[The Shadow Gentleman]

I can't say there's any particular type I'd like to see more. Really, I just want more variety with shonen protagonists. I wouldn't even mind an empty headed, goody two-shoes as long as they're flesh out and written well.

Do you mean better motives, background, power-set, or just general attitude? What might help with better variety is for shonen authors to read more books and watch older adventure movies for character and setting ideas.

But I'm talking about drive, mainly. All my favorite Shonen works have a main character that has a real drive to stop the 'bad' guy beyond because they're 'good'. I think that's an element you don't see too often in shonen (or most anime) these days.

It's probably one of the reasons I really like Kuroko No Basket because the main character simply wants to prove that he matters, his goal is not to personally be the best player of all time, just be the best that he can be to help his team succeed and to show that his goal has merit. I relate to that, and I think most kids do as well. There's something there beyond beating the bad guy because he's bad.

One area I do want to see more variety is drive, like you said. But what I really would like to see is the protagonist having personality traits and attitudes usually reserved for some token member of a team. Like a protagonist whose "the smart guy" and wins his fights mainly through strategy. Although, I don't really read a lot of shonen, so I don't know if this has already been done. 

[Spark Of Spirit]

I'd like to see more "I do what I want/don't mess with me" anti-heroic types as protagonists. The kind of character that has a lot of flaws and emotional baggage (without coming across as overly angsty or "emo") and can act like a jerk at times, and may not even consider themselves heroic at all, and indeed may be driven by non-heroic motives like revenge, money, or even just looking for a good fight, but ultimately have a heart of gold that drives them to pull off acts of heroism and kindness whenever they can.

More laid-back and/or friendly protagonists would be nice too.

I also echo what E-K and Shadowgentleman said.

I could see that as interesting as long as we have a way to relate with someone so different from the norm from the start. I don't have a thing against anti-heroes except when they're basically villains that are less-evil than the antagonist which tends to not make me care much for either. I like my villains and heroes to be opposites or two-sides of a similar coin that clash.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I can't say there's any particular type I'd like to see more. Really, I just want more variety with shonen protagonists. I wouldn't even mind an empty headed, goody two-shoes as long as they're flesh out and written well.

Do you mean better motives, background, power-set, or just general attitude? What might help with better variety is for shonen authors to read more books and watch older adventure movies for character and setting ideas.

But I'm talking about drive, mainly. All my favorite Shonen works have a main character that has a real drive to stop the 'bad' guy beyond because they're 'good'. I think that's an element you don't see too often in shonen (or most anime) these days.

It's probably one of the reasons I really like Kuroko No Basket because the main character simply wants to prove that he matters, his goal is not to personally be the best player of all time, just be the best that he can be to help his team succeed and to show that his goal has merit. I relate to that, and I think most kids do as well. There's something there beyond beating the bad guy because he's bad.

One area I do want to see more variety is drive, like you said. But what I really would like to see is the protagonist having personality traits and attitudes usually reserved for some token member of a team. Like a protagonist whose "the smart guy" and wins his fights mainly through strategy. Although, I don't really read a lot of shonen, so I don't know if this has already been done. 

Oh yeah, I see what you're saying. You want more rounded protagonists that don't just have one trait milked for jokes over other characters. Sadly, that's all over most shonen these days.

In Naruto, does Naruto really need to be an idiot? I mean, really? He was already a clumsy screw-up who had chakra control problems (which was actually explained as a reason quite well- shocker!) and that could have been enough to build on, but they kept going back to the "He's an idiot, let's make a joke at his expense!" well repeatedly. Would the story lose really anything if he wasn't stupid?

Or in Bleach, does Ichigo need to have his generic anger? Does it add anything to the story? Has it ever actually affected anything in the plot? If it doesn't affect what happens in the story at all then why is it a trait that he has in the first place? If every aspect of a character's personality doesn't affect the story in some meaningful way then either the story or the character isn't developed enough, in my opinion.

It's just food for thought. I like stories a lot, but there are certain cliches that simply don't work if you don't know how to use them.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Gon is the perfect example of taking the generic shonen boy character and making him original. Gon actually becomes physically stronger as he goes along, but I actually think he becomes worse as a person at the same time (while Killua is the opposite) which makes an interesting twist on the old cliche. He grows increasingly selfish and jerk-ish while still keeping in line with where he came from in the beginning. But at the same time, I don't really like Gon and find he's my least favorite character in HxH and right now I wouldn't care if he left the story entirely whenever Togashi starts up again. Whereas in Yu Yu Hakusho I enjoyed all four of the main characters almost equally despite them all being quite varied and having different goals yet I always rooted for them to succeed. I think he made a gamble with making a character like Gon a main character, but I salute him for trying something new with an old idea even if I find at this point the cliche is not worth exploring anymore.

OK, I think you're REALLY stretching that idea with Gon. First of all, Gon does not become more selfish in previous arcs before the Chimera Ant incident. Remember how he goes out of his way to help Killua in the York Shin City arc? When Pakunoda asks him why, he says its because he doesn't want his friend to become a cold blooded killer in trying to attain his revenge. These are clearly not the words of a selfish and jerkish person. Gon more or less doesn't change much as a character in Greed Island, either. Now what you say DOES apply to the Chimera Ant arc, but you didn't mention the reason why his character goes through that development. Togashi didn't just do that to be edgy and dark, but rather he showed us how dangerous Gon's idealism was, and how bad he was at dealing with the guilt of Kite's death. He tried to remain optimistic and convinced himself that there was a way to bring him back. As reality slowly started to hit him over time, his mental condition grew worse and worse. So, THAT's what made it an interesting development. Also, Gon accepts responsibility for his actions after speaking with his father, so by that point he had overcome his downward mental spiral.

I also cannot agree with you that Gon should be dropped from the story. Yes, he is certainly not a favorite of mine as a solo character either, but Gon's strength as a character comes from how he affects and changes the attitudes of other characters. Take a moment to think just why Killua, Leorio, Kurapika, Knuckle, Morel, and various other characters changed in the first place. It was all due in some way to interacting with Gon, and as proof of this, think of when they all started their character arcs. It was always after first meeting Gon. So, Gon may not be the best character in the series, but he is undeniably the heart of the series.

I know you don't care much for Hunter X Hunter, but even with its flaws, I still honestly believe that it is by far one of the best modern shounen manga around. I like stuff like Kuroko, Psyren, and a few other recent or currently running shounen, but truthfully most of those series level off at a certain level of quality for me and just play it safe from that point on. Hunter X Hunter tries new stuff and takes risks, and while they don't always work, the series is absolutely unbeatable when it does click together. Personally, I just happen to feel that it has had more good going for it than bad, and since I'm a person who likes to focus on positives over negatives, I really do love this series, and feel that it does have qualities that other contemporary shounen series' authors can learn from.

is a good way to put it. The story needs to be character-based in that the main character has to be someone we can identify with, but eventually should grow towards something bigger than when he started otherwise the character becomes flat and boring and tends to flat-line the story in the process.

Even if he doesn't write shounen manga, I have to mention that Naoki Urasawa is a master of writing these types of characters. Anyone who wants to see perfect examples of what we're talking about need not look any further than Monster or 20th Century Boys.

I would guess the main problem with shonen protagonists now is that they just make characters that they think kids will find cool and not characters that kids would find compelling enough to follow on the journey.

This is the biggest problem plaguing the genre. Characters like Ichigo, Oga, Eren, and so forth are pretty much this in a nutshell.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Kenichi hasn't changed one bit since D+D just like the story hasn't. The author gave up long ago.

I know. I was only referring to his character development up to that arc in the first place.