Hack n' Slash games

[Rynnec]

Just out of curiosity, where would you rank DMC1?

I knew there was a game I was forgetting. DMC1 would go right below DMC4, tying with NMH.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Just out of curiosity, where would you rank DMC1?

I knew there was a game I was forgetting. DMC1 would go right below DMC4, tying with NMH.

Speaking of forgetting games, I also forgot to ask you about where you would rank Darksiders 2.

Also, why does DS2 still cost so much at retail stores? I thought that the game would go down in price as soon as THQ officially went under, but it still costs near full-price at any retail store I got to. Even used copies of the game still cost over $40, and I usually don't spend more than $20 per game these days.

Oh well, I really should just finally buckle down and buy Bayonetta to add to my collection, and so that I can play it on the harder difficulty settings as well. Seeing the gameplay for Bayo 2 reminded me that its still the best current hack n' slash series around.

You know what saddens me, though? Its just how freaking low the NG series has sunk. As a fan of hack n' slash games, I am grateful for titles like Bayo 2 and MGR, but as a Ninja Gaiden fan, I'm biased as hell just as any fan would be, and really want to see the series get out of its slump and have its equivalent of a DMC3-style renaissance (or even something akin to RE4 in the sense that it revolutionizes the gameplay of its own genre). It just really stings to see how bad the series has become under terrible management.

Its like Ninja Gaiden/Black/Sigma was the epic emergence of a powerful knew competitor in the hack n' slash genre. For a time, it was on the absolute top. Then it dabbled in some new stuff on the side and showed us that it could still do interesting new stuff in Ninja Gaiden: Dragon Sword, even though most fans stubbornly ignored it and only wanted to see it do its main thing. Then NG2 came out, and in retrospect it was kind of a let-down, but also a very terrific effort despite its flaws and still really good competition for its time. Then the series sold out its loyal fans and indulged in chap corporate money-making, but it backfired and the series just failed for it with the abysmal NG3 and the barely any better Razor's Edge. In a state of depression and rage, it made another terrible decision and got into drugs and now we are getting what is called Ninja Gaiden Z. Yeah, its safe to say now that this series has gone to shit.

The sad thing is that most people only know the series from NG2 onward, as NG2 was the highest selling NG game by far, and where most people decided to start. While I like NG2, its flaws turned a lot of people off and gave them the wrong impression of the series as a whole, and then NG3 pretty much killed any credibility it had, and nobody even played freaking Dragon Sword, so that one never stood a chance. NGB/S, which is by far the best game in the series, is also the least-played game in the series, and the most forgotten (once again, aside from DS), which is a bitter shame.

Having said that, its still great to see the genre has life left in it with other great hack n' slash titles. Its just that part of me wishes that Itagaki never left Team Ninja and got to actually "finish" making NG2 and also made NG3 the way that he would have wanted to make it. Then the series would still be a healthy source of competition in a genre that seriously needs it.

[Rynnec]

I still have to finish DS2, though, I consider it more of an adventure/action RPG with some hack'n slash elements than a full on hack'n slash game.

If I didn't feel the absolute need to be a completionist and at least force myself to play through the entire game once, and instead was smart like you, I would have done the same. Unfortunately I had to force myself to slog through the whole damn thing until I beat it, and then I never touched it again. Believe it or not, the game actually gets worse. This may easily be the worst non-broken video game that I have ever played (though once I play all of NG3 for the same reasons, it may indeed tie with it, or dare I say even top it).

The only reason I bothered with DMC2 in the first place was so I could try out the Majin Devil Trigger, which is one of the few interesting things in the game.

However, I wouldn't mind if they remade 2 (along with 1) to make it more like the other games, both in tone and gameplay. In fact, someone on another forum brought up interesting ideas for a remake of 2.

Also, why does DS2 still cost so much at retail stores? I thought that the game would go down in price as soon as THQ officially went under, but it still costs near full-price at any retail store I got to. Even used copies of the game still cost over $40, and I usually don't spend more than $20 per game these days.

It's going for $16.69 on Amazon, and $14.99 on Gamelfy (though, you'll have to subscribe to their service to rent and keep it). Not sure what the deal is with other retailers.

Oh well, I really should just finally buckle down and buy Bayonetta to add to my collection, and so that I can play it on the harder difficulty settings as well. Seeing the gameplay for Bayo 2 reminded me that its still the best current hack n' slash series around.

Bayo 2 looks freakin' fantastic. I really want to know more about the co-op features it will supposedly have.

You know what saddens me, though? Its just how freaking low the NG series has sunk. As a fan of hack n' slash games, I am grateful for titles like Bayo 2 and MGR, but as a Ninja Gaiden fan, I'm biased as hell just as any fan would be, and really want to see the series get out of its slump and have its equivalent of a DMC3-style renaissance (or even something akin to RE4 in the sense that it revolutionizes the gameplay of its own genre). It just really stings to see how bad the series has become under terrible management.

Ninja Gaiden has it worse than Devil May Cry at this point. At least with DMC, old Dante still makes appearances in crossover titles like MVC3 and Project X Zone, and there's still a chance for the DMC 3/4 team to make a proper DMC5.

Its like Ninja Gaiden/Black/Sigma was the epic emergence of a powerful knew competitor in the hack n' slash genre. For a time, it was on the absolute top. Then it dabbled in some new stuff on the side and showed us that it could still do interesting new stuff in Ninja Gaiden: Dragon Sword, even though most fans stubbornly ignored it and only wanted to see it do its main thing. Then NG2 came out, and in retrospect it was kind of a let-down, but also a very terrific effort despite its flaws and still really good competition for its time. Then the series sold out its loyal fans and indulged in chap corporate money-making, but it backfired and the series just failed for it with the abysmal NG3 and the barely any better Razor's Edge. In a state of depression and rage, it made another terrible decision and got into drugs and now we are getting what is called Ninja Gaiden Z. Yeah, its safe to say now that this series has gone to shit.

Just watched a few Yaiba trailers, and wow. What the fuck does any of that have to do with NG? At least it's just a spin-off rather than a numbered title, but yeesh.

The sad thing is that most people only know the series from NG2 onward, as NG2 was the highest selling NG game by far, and where most people decided to start. While I like NG2, its flaws turned a lot of people off and gave them the wrong impression of the series as a whole, and then NG3 pretty much killed any credibility it had, and nobody even played freaking Dragon Sword, so that one never stood a chance. NGB/S, which is by far the best game in the series, is also the least-played game in the series, and the most forgotten (once again, aside from DS), which is a bitter shame.

I was always under the impression more people were familiar with NG Black/Sigma?

Having said that, its still great to see the genre has life left in it with other great hack n' slash titles. Its just that part of me wishes that Itagaki never left Team Ninja and got to actually "finish" making NG2 and also made NG3 the way that he would have wanted to make it. Then the series would still be a healthy source of competition in a genre that seriously needs it.

Maybe once/if Devil's Third finally gets released, Itagaki will make his own "Bayonetta", so to speak.

[Grave]

I was always under the impression more people were familiar with NG Black/Sigma?

Agreed, especially considering the amount of times it's been (re)released.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Thanks for the info. I may just get the game off of Amazon instead of waiting for the retail price to go down.

And yeah, for a hack n' slash series that used to rival the likes of DMC and God of War in terms of critical acclaim, the NG series really does have it the worst of all right now. With something like Yaiba, I don't mind so much that its a spin-off of the Ninja Gaiden series about zombies, but it just looks so half-assed and gimmicky in its approach to over-the-top violence, and it seems to be trying to go for a sense of humor akin to a game from a developer like Grasshopper or Platinum, but its failing miserably at it for the most part, and fails to capture what makes those games so funny and also so damn entertaining and engaging to play. To me, it just looks like crap that's using the Ninja Gaiden name (which already isn't worth too much as it is, these days) for a little extra push in sales in order to make a quick buck and basically milk out the franchise for all it has left in it. I'm really disappointed that Keiji Inafune, the man behind freaking Mega Man, is basically treating what used to be one of my favorite action series like a complete joke and handing its development over to a sloppy team like Spark Unlimited.

As for Grave's comment, I should point out that Ninja Gaiden 2 has also been re-released twice (Sigma 2 and Sigma 2 Plus), and on top of that, its total cumulative sales through the original version and its re-releases tops that of NG1's sales and its re-releases. I've also encountered plenty of people on the NG boards that I used to go to who only started with NG2 and were completely ignorant of the first game.

That's not to imply that I don't like NG2, because I have a hugely biased love for the game, but I can acknowledge its flaws now in the same way that I can acknowledge DMC4's flaws. Both are very good games that just lack the polish and content to be quite as good as their previous respective installments (IMO).

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Here's another question I was thinking of: How good do you guys think you are at hack n' slash games in general?

For me, just so long as the game doesn't have a lot of platforming segments, this is one of the few genres where I feel that my skill level is generally above average, whereas I openly admit to sucking at most other kinds of games (single-player FPS games being the other genre that I feel I'm above average at). Now, mind you, I'm not saying that I'm great at these games, or even very good. I consider great players to be the ones who put together various handicap runs, or pull off insane combos that they put up in videos that I couldn't ever even hope to accomplish mimicking no matter how much I tried due to my limited reflexes.

That said, I am usually good enough to beat almost any given hack n' slash game on its highest available difficulty setting. I should say that, with DMC4, I got about half-way through the game on Dante Must Die mode, but then I stopped. It wasn't because I found it too hard, but because I was kind of getting bored with the game by that point (it was my 3rd play-through of it). The actual mode itself I was having no real trouble with, aside from a few fights, and I'm very positive that I could have beaten the rest of the game without too much trouble on that difficulty setting if I wanted to. That said, I definitely am not good enough to the point of being able to complete that game on Hell and Hell mode, that's just way too masochistic for me.

With DMC3, I'm currently on Very Hard mode, and find it to be rather tame. I know that DMD mode is mostly hard because enemies have the ability to DT, but I don't see that being an issue for me as long as I'm good at evading their attacks. To be honest, I can't say whether I'd do any good in DMC1's DMD mode, but I found the game to be rather easy and surprisingly forgiving on its Normal difficulty setting, and as far as I can tell the main thing to watch out for is just the insane amount of damage that Dante can take on DMD mode, and that its best to kill the enemies before they have the chance to DT in that game.

I can also beat both of the first 2 Ninja Gaiden games on Master Ninja mode. That said I can't do any handicap runs on those difficulties.

In terms of advanced combat mechanics and such, I can never fully master the combat of any of these games the way that people who do the insane combo videos do, but I can get them down on a deeper level than most people would. I am good enough to utilize stuff outside of just "base" skills, such as cancels, i-frames, and so on, and memorizing the most effective weapons and combos to use against specific enemy types is one of my personal specialties. I also hardly ever use items in most of these games, so I don't ever find myself farming for healing items and spamming them on difficult boss fights or such.

So, yeah, overall I'd say that I'm pretty decent at hack n' slash games, though once again, I'm nowhere near great at them.

[Foggle]

I am bad at them. I can beat most hack n slash games on the Normal and Hard difficulties, but I am by no means skilled at them, and generally victory comes down to luck as often as skill for me.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Well, I should mention that I by no means have great reflexes. Hell, my reflexes are pretty terrible, which is why I'll never be able to master any fighting game. That said, the thing I find appealing about good hack n' slash games is that they are honestly very strategic at heart. That's how I manage to get through NG and DMC on their harder difficulty settings more than anything else. I always have the right combination of weapons to use in my strategy, and when appropriate, I can also use my surrounding environment to my advantage.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Awful. Embarrassingly bad.

Though I got good at the Mega Man Zero series, I was still nowhere near great at them.

[Rynnec]

It's probably the genre I'm best at. I'm not a pro at it by any means, but I do have a generally good idea of what I'm doing, and can probably pull of stuff that casuals would have a hard time doing.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Awful. Embarrassingly bad.

Though I got good at the Mega Man Zero series, I was still nowhere near great at them.

That reminds me, I wish there were more 2D hack n' slash platformers.

It's probably the genre I'm best at. I'm not a pro at it by any means, but I do have a generally good idea of what I'm doing, and can probably pull of stuff that casuals would have a hard time doing.

I know this is kind of unrelated, but what's your favorite style to use with Dante? I just figured that you could tell a lot about someone's preferences and play-style for this genre in general just from having that question answered alone.

For me its Sword Master. It just fits my play-style in every conceivable way. Sure, I do love the insane shit you can pull off with the gunslinger style, the agility you have at your disposal with the Trickster style, and the defense and counter-based combat that you can pull off with the Royal Guard style, but at the end of the day I'm just a guy who likes flat-out offensive melee combat, and Sword Master just offers up such a wide arsenal of moves for each and every weapon that its like a hack n' slash game's equivalent of an all-you-can eat buffet line for me (if that analogy even makes any sense to anyone but me ).

[Spark Of Spirit]

Awful. Embarrassingly bad.

Though I got good at the Mega Man Zero series, I was still nowhere near great at them.

That reminds me, I wish there were more 2D hack n' slash platformers.

There are a few, but the MMZ series are clearly the peak of that style. And managing it with so few buttons is still pretty impressive.

[Rynnec]

It's probably the genre I'm best at. I'm not a pro at it by any means, but I do have a generally good idea of what I'm doing, and can probably pull of stuff that casuals would have a hard time doing.

I know this is kind of unrelated, but what's your favorite style to use with Dante? I just figured that you could tell a lot about someone's preferences and play-style for this genre in general just from having that question answered alone.

For me its Sword Master. It just fits my play-style in every conceivable way. Sure, I do love the insane shit you can pull off with the gunslinger style, the agility you have at your disposal with the Trickster style, and the defense and counter-based combat that you can pull off with the Royal Guard style, but at the end of the day I'm just a guy who likes flat-out offensive melee combat, and Sword Master just offers up such a wide arsenal of moves for each and every weapon that its like a hack n' slash game's equivalent of an all-you-can eat buffet line for me (if that analogy even makes any sense to anyone but me ).

Sword Master same as you, and for similar reasons. I like the agility of Trickster, but it takes away from your aerial offensive options, which I have trouble doing without SM. The gunplay of the Gunslinger style look cool too, and Royal Guard is just godly, but I'd probably be shit with it if I tried using it myself.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I'm only just now starting to get competent at using Royal Guard, but I can see how insanely useful it will be when mastered. This thing can even make boss encounters on DMD mode a total joke once you know how to use it properly, from what I've seen in various videos.

I think that Trickster is probably the most immediately practical style to use on pretty much any difficulty setting for almost any encounter. That said, I like the feeling of just beating the crap out of my enemies with the varied and powerful attacks of the Sword Master style. As for Gunslinger, its probably the least practical style to use in terms of just getting past fights, but its great for style points, or just doing cool things in general. That said, its honestly the hardest style for me to master.

[gunswordfist]

I'm pretty much just a button masher that tries to quickly overpower enemies but I am decent at beating enemies by paying attention to their attack patterns