Hack n' Slash games

[Grave]

Here's another question I was thinking of: How good do you guys think you are at hack n' slash games in general?

Somewhere between the lines of total scrub and decent, but I suppose that's the perk of not really caring about difficulty and using the genre for aggression. If I were to actually try and play them at a higher difficulty to actually learn the game in's' and out's of the combat mechanics I can get be fairly decent, but, those days are long gone. I'm probably a total scrub.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

You seem to be pretty decent at fighting games, so I'd always imagined you'd be pretty good at hack n' slash games. I just figured that with fighting games, the amount of precision and timing needed to pull off combos and exploit certain attacks was way stricter than in any hack n' slash game that I have ever played, which are usually pretty lenient with timing and such, so I just thought you'd find it easier to be good at those sorts of games. To be fair, though, there are a lot of other factors that you have to worry about in hack n' slash games that don't apply to fighting games (especially 2D ones), in that you are usually fighting multiple enemies at once, and the bosses usually don't follow the same set of rules as your character does.

[Grave]

Oh don't get me wrong (I'm a scrub in fighters too lol), If I were to actually put in the time, yeah I think I'd be a little more competent. It's just that I use these type of games specifically for my anger (at least until I get a punching bag or something), but I will say blame the fighting games because back before I got back into the fighters I would definitely play this genre for the challenge.

I remember the first time playing Ninja Gaiden 2 on Warrior (I was dared to do it since I usually start games off on the easiest and work my way up), and while I didn't think it was hard, it definitely had it's challenge. That transition from Warrior to Mentor though, wow, it was like a brand new game, and I was actually having fun.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Random thought: It just occurred to me that the hack n' slash genre (as we know it today) was essentially set in motion by the production of an obscure Japanese horror movie.

Specifically, I'm talking about Sweet Home. You see, if they didn't ever decide to produce this film in Japan, then there wouldn't have been a game made in conjunction with it to help further promote the movie. If the game for Sweet Home wasn't made, then they wouldn't have tried to remake the game for the PS1, and then we wouldn't have gotten Resident Evil, since the 1st RE game was originally supposed to be a remake of Sweet Home. And, thus, if we never had Resident Evil, we would never have gotten Devil May Cry, with the first DMC game itself originally being developed as Resident Evil 4 before Capcom decided to change it into a completely new series since it was too action-oriented for an RE game at the time (yet it's still a better RE game than RE 5 and 6). And of course, if we never got DMC, we wouldn't have the formula set in place for the hack n' slash games that we've come to know and love.

Based on this realization of mine, I can only conclude that the best way to celebrate and pay tribute to the hack n' slash genre to it's fullest is for someone to do that Sweet Home remake, but instead of making it a JPRG, it should be a Sweet Home hack n' slash game. That is all.

[gunswordfist]

Random thought: It just occurred to me that the hack n' slash genre (as we know it today) was essentially set in motion by the production of an obscure Japanese horror movie.

Specifically, I'm talking about Sweet Home. You see, if they didn't ever decide to produce this film in Japan, then there wouldn't have been a game made in conjunction with it to help further promote the movie. If the game for Sweet Home wasn't made, then they wouldn't have tried to remake the game for the PS1, and then we wouldn't have gotten Resident Evil, since the 1st RE game was originally supposed to be a remake of Sweet Home. And, thus, if we never had Resident Evil, we would never have gotten Devil May Cry, with the first DMC game itself originally being developed as Resident Evil 4 before Capcom decided to change it into a completely new series since it was too action-oriented for an RE game at the time (yet it's still a better RE game than RE 5 and 6). And of course, if we never got DMC, we wouldn't have the formula set in place for the hack n' slash games that we've come to know and love.

Based on this realization of mine, I can only conclude that the best way to celebrate and pay tribute to the hack n' slash genre to it's fullest is for someone to do that Sweet Home remake, but instead of making it a JPRG, it should be a Sweet Home hack n' slash game. That is all.

I didn't know RE was originally going to be a Sweet Home remake. Genuine shock. And celebrate by yourself but just playing the game.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Alright, so here's my current top 9 favorite Hack n' Slash games:

09. Darksiders 2 (I still need to beat it, but the game is pretty good up until the section on Earth)
08. Shinobi (PS2)
07. Devil May Cry 4
06. Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance (might be higher once I play the DLC missions, as well as replaying through the main game)
05. Ninja Gaiden II (XBOX 360)
04. Bayonetta (same as MGRR)
03. Devil May Cry
02. Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening (Special Edition)
01. Ninja Gaiden Black

Despite this being my favorite genre in gaming, this list really shows how few good games there are in the genre. It's really the strength of my top 4 favorite, which are all amazing, which are able to make me love this genre so much by themselves. Yes, putting my annoyance with some of the obnoxious praise from game journalists aside, I do respect the God of War genre as a legitimate contender in this genre. That said, it's just not my cup of tea, personally, but I completely understand why other people find them to be so appealing.

There are other hack n' slash games that I have played, but I couldn't list them for various reasons. For instance, Hunter: The Reckoning is only ever fun on co-op, and as a single-player experience it really shows its flaws. There are also the Onimusha and Otogi games, but I never played enough of those, and I haven't touched any of them in ages, so I have no idea if they even hold up or not. There are plenty of others that I have tried that are either just complete shit or average at best, such as Genji: Dawn of the Samurai, Dante's Inferno, Ninja Blade, and so on. The Dynasty Warriors Games that I have tried just bore me, personally. As for NG3....well, we all know that's a piece of shit. As for Dragon Sword, that one's a bit odd and I'm not really sure if I can count it as a hack n' slash game, which is why I didn't list it. DmC: Devil May Cry was definitey entertaining, but it lacks the substance of most of the other games on my list, and it doesn't have the fun puzzle and light-RPG elements of DS2 to make up for its shortcomings.

And of course there are several hack n' slash games that I still haven't tried. Most notably my list is really lacking any good 2D hack n' slash games, though I really should try The Dishwasher and Mega Man Zero games at some point in time. I also should probably look into that one XBLA/PSN game by the same guy who made Strider (I forget what it's called, ATM). That said, yeah, this genre has some of the best games ever created, but unfortunately it doesn't have that many great games. The ones that it does have are infinitely replayable, though.

Also, as for #'s 8 and 9, those are really kind of stretching it, but I did at least enjoy both games more than average. With Shinobi, it's far from a perfect game, but I do find it to be the rare type of action-platformer from that era of gaming that actually really works, and surprisingly doesn't have too many problems with the camera or controls (which you would expect to be an issue with most games from that period of time). As for DS2, it's a good if rather unimaginative game, but the Earth section of the game (which I hear is fairly close to the end of it, anyways) is stupid (I'll get back into it eventually, though), and it's also one of those games that I know pretty much has no replay value for me past my first playthrough. That said, it is pretty lengthy in the first place, which still makes it worth playing.

[Rynnec]

I consider Shinobi 2k2 to be more of a platformer than a full-on hack'n slash. Even if there is more combat in the latter sections of the game (I've only finished the first two levels) I don't think the combat is deep enough to be compared to most hack'n slashes. For similar reasons, I also don't consider the Megaman Zero games to be hack'n slashes.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Eh, I can see your argument, but there is no solid definition for what makes a game qualify as a hack n' slash (which by the way is not "officially" a genre, if you really want to be technical). To me, any game that has a significant amount of combat featuring some form of bladed weapons counts as a hack n' slash. If having deep combat is what's necessary, then I'd like to remind you that a majority of games wouldn't count, including stuff like Dante's Inferno, Genji, and so on, despite clearly fitting most of the staples of the genre.

As for Shinobi, it features equal amounts action and platforming, and while the combat itself is not deep, it IS nuanced, which is to say that it's integrated into the gameplay in a manner that demands some form of skill, in the sense of how to maximize your damage with attacks as well as when it is and is not appropriate to attack. That, to me, is enough to qualify it as a hack n' slash game.

[Rynnec]

Well, my personal criteria for a game to qualify as a Hack'n Slash is that it has to have 1) A decent amount of combat as its focus, and 2)have some form of a combo system. To that end, Shinobi doesn't qualify, as even the more shallow hack'n slashes not only have combat as its focus, but also allow to string multi-hit combos (doesn't Dante's Inferno have a combo counter?).  Still a great game though.

As for 2D Hack'n Slashes, I'd say give Muramasa The Demon Blade a try once you get a Wii. Dust is also pretty good, but it's more in the camp of Darksiders II, 'cept with a crappier story and worse voice acting.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

To each his own, then. I think Shinobi counts as a hack n' slash game based on the reasons I stated above. If you want to be technical you do "combo" enemies in the game, in that you perform consecutive slashes. It's just that the game lacks an actual move-set like other games in the genre. To me that just makes its take on combat different, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't count. And on that end, I wouldn't call it a pure platformer either, because of its equal focus on action.

To draw a line between what does and doesn't count, I don't count the classic NG or Shinobi games as hack n' slash because most enemies die in one hit, and thus the sword-play in that regard lacks any form of combos.

As for Muramasa, I'll probably give it a try whenever I manage to snag myself a DS (or a 2DS if it's BC with DS games).

[Rynnec]

You mean a Wii or WiiU? Because I don't think Muramasa is on the DS. It is on the Vita though.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Sorry, I had a brain fart when I wrote that.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Just out of boredom (again), here is a quick list of my top 12 favorite weapons in hack n' slash games (which incidentally are only from either NG or DMC games), along with my favorite moves for each of them:


12. Unlabored Flawlessness (Ninja Gaiden Black): Earth Splitter
11. True Dragon Sword (Ninja Gaiden 2): Gleaming Blade
10. Eclipse Scythe (Ninja Gaiden 2): River Styx Drop
9. Red Queen (DMC4): EX-High Roller --> Roulette Spin
8. Agni & Rudra (DMC3): Tempest/Crazy Twister
7. Vigoorian Flail (Ninja Gaiden Black/2): Dancing Phoenix
6. Beowulf (DMC3): Rising Dragon
5. Lunar Staff (Ninja Gaiden Black/2): Heavenly Shadow --> Izuna Drop
4. Rebellion (DMC3): Dance Macabre
3. Falcon's Talons (Ninja Gaiden 2): Crushing Vermillion Bird Strike --> Izuna Drop
2. Blade of the Archfiend (Ninja Gaiden 2): Underworld Drop
1. Tonfas (Ninja Gaiden 2): Overlapping Storms

The Tonfas have a bunch of great moves, but they are also my favorite weapon primarily because of the Heavenly Justice cancel, which is really the only weapon in the NG games that has a legitimate move dedicated to cancelling, which allows you to link tons of crazy combos together.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

So, I'm just kind of curious as to how you guys tend to play these sorts of games. Do you just play it once or twice to get your fill, or do you replay the hell out of them and really try to get to know the finer points of the game inside and out? And do you ever try to conquer the higher difficulty settings?

When it's a game that I really love, then I'll play it over and over again and try my best to get really good at it. Despite this, believe it or not, the only one of these games that I've managed to beat on its highest available difficulty setting are the first 2 NG games. I have played through half of DMC4 on DMD mode but then I stopped because I was kind of losing interest in the game by that point in time. As for DMC3, I'm in the process of completing DMD mode, but admittedly it's so frustrating that I have to take it in strides and only tackle one mission at a time. Still, I love playing these games on harder difficulty settings until I find that one that strikes a good balance of challenge and fun for me, which almost always turns ou to be Very Hard mode or some equivalent of it.

The other thing that keeps me coming back in the best of these games is the combat and the enemies/bosses. A great combat system will have a ton of nuance that'll always have you discovering new things about its intricacies. And great enemies and bosses will offer up plenty of challenge and keep the game feeling fresh. It doesn't feel repetitive when these enemies that you start getting used to fighting all of a sudden start doing different shit to you on higher difficulty settings. I always enjoy studying the enemy AI behavior in games like NG and DMC.

[Grave]

Depends on the game. For the most part I'll usually play any hack n slasher a 2nd time just to see if there's a new game+ and to see what carries over. If I enjoy the game then I'll play it roughly 4-5 times, although I take longer periods to get back to that 4th or 5th playthrough just so I don't burn myself out on them. The only games I've actually played more than 4 times is DMC3&4.

I will say this. Despite having played DMC3&4 many times, Ninja Gaiden 2 is the only game that I've attempted to play on higher difficulties. I probably owe it to myself to attempt to play DMC3&4 on a higher difficulty setting at least once just to see if I feel any different towards them much like I felt towards NG2's jump from warrior to mentor.