Hack n' Slash games

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Yeah, NG2 has a pretty substantial jump in difficulty between Warrior mode and Mentor mode. With NGB/S it's between Hard mode and Very Hard mode where you get the biggest jump in difficulty. With DMC3 it's also a big jump between Hard mode and Very Hard mode. As for DMD mode, it doesn't necessarily feel that much harder than Very Hard at first, until you get to the second half of the game which has a HUGE jump in difficulty since that's when the game starts throwing the most ridiculous and annoying enemy sets at you in rapid succession, and maybe it's just me but it feels like they start to Devil Trigger more often once you get to that point in the game. Compared to that, DMC4 didn't feel like it ever had a tremendous jump in difficulty, but to be fair I quit playing it around Mission 9 on DMD mode, so it's possible that it got harder in its second half much like DMC3 did, but on the whole I found the game to be much easier than DMC3 ever was.

Actually, that brings up another interesting topic. How would you rank the hack n' slash games that you've played in terms of overall difficulty? Here's how I would rank them (based only on their default difficulty settings on my first run through them), myself:

Shinobi (PS2) > DMC3 > NG2 > DMC = NGB/S > DMC4 > MGRR > Bayonetta > Darksiders 2 > Genji: Dawn of the Samurai = DMC2

Once again, it's been too long since I've played any of the Onimusha or Otogi games, so I can't really rank any of them, though I generally remember Onimusha 2 being kind of difficult for me at the time, but I was considerably worse at games back then.

[Grave]

On default difficulty? Hmm...

DMC3 = NG2 > NG1 > Onimusha: DoD > GoW1

I left off DMC1/4, GoW2/3 (have yet to play 3) mainly because I didn't think those games were difficult back when I first played them, but then again it's been so long since I've played a lot of these games I need to start replaying a lot of them.

I definitely remember struggling with Onimusha 4 (that was a big jump from O3).

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Well just because I ranked all of those games doesn't mean that I necessarily found them all to be difficult. Everything up to NGB/S were challenging for me on my first run through them. After that they were all fairly easy games, but still varied in terms of their learning curve and such, so I ranked them accordingly.

[Grave]

That may have came out wrong. I got what you were doing. It's more like laziness or memory issues on my part.

It's been so long especially for DMC1. I think I was around 19-20 years old when I first played that game, and I'll be 30 this year, so I'm drawing a lot of blanks when it comes to remembering some of the things that went down in DMC1. I remember the spider and that dreaded water level, but I don't remember if I struggled or not, or maybe I should say nothing really left scars the way the ones I mentioned did.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I just remembered that I forgot to rank DmC, but it'd probably go behind Bayonetta for me, and that's going by Nephilim mode, while technically the default difficulty is supposed to be Devil Hunter.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

The best of the best compared to the just good  and average/medicore ratio is admittedly a tad lower than desired, but just based on the core few games of the genre that stand at the top of it (stuff like Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, and maybe MGRR despite its faults are what come to mind for me, personally), I want to highlight some reasons why I think it may just be the best genre of games out there, or at least among action/adventure games. That means these are the reasons why I think that if there were more games like these, then this genre would be better than the TPS, FPS, and even platforming genres, which once again, is just a personal opinion of mine. Here are 5 brief reasons why I think this:

5. They're Just So Fucking Cool- Admittedly the most shallow reason, but admit it, no matter how amazingly good the classic Mario games are, or how much you liked shooting things up in DOOM or any side-scrolling shooter like Contra, or how much you enjoyed fist-to-fist fighting in great beat-em-ups like Streets of Rage or in any fighting game, there was a part of all of you that wanted to experience balls-to-the-walls, all-out sword-fighting and weapon-based combat in an adventure style setting. And, I don't just mean clean attacks with a blunt feeling to them that felt no different than a beat-em-up (like in Turtles in Time or Golden Axe, for example, which are awesome, of course, but still beat-em-ups, through and through). No, you wanted that anime style slice-em-up action where you really felt like you were slicing through whoever stood in your way. Well, this genre essentially caters to that visceral fantasy, and the best of the bunch don't do it in a sadistic or disgusting way, but in a way that makes you feel cool, like a bad-ass anime character.

4. The Best of Two Worlds: Combining the Depth of a Fighting Game With the Fun of an Adventure Game- Many of us love squaring off in one-on-one bouts (or battle royale type scenarios in games like Smash Bros. or Power Stone 2) against other skilled opponents, and many of us love solving puzzles or doing some light platforming or just flat-out exploring a world or even just a level for secrets and useful items to use. The first games that tried to combine those 2 elements were beat-em-up games, though while many of them are awesome, a lot of the classic ones had severe limitations in both departments, in that they successfully combined the two genres, but lacked the depth and nuance of fighting games, while also having much less room for hidden areas and such akin to full-fledged adventure games like platformers (games like God Hand being among the few notable exceptions). That said, hack n' slash games, starting from titles like the original Devil May Cry, really got both elements of gameplay nailed down almost perfectly. And ever since then we've had various other great titles in this regard. It's great to master really complex moves in Ninja Gaiden or Bayonetta, which contrary to popular belief is not only something a few very skilled players can do, but rather anyone who is willing to invest some time into getting better will reap the rewards of becoming skilled players themselves.

3. The Challenge- Many of these games will no doubt kick your ass at first. Admittedly that's probably the least fun phase of these games, and many people quit at this stage, which is why this genre is sadly not more popular than it is. However, if you tough it out and focus on learning what your mistakes are, studying enemy patterns and such, and getting better at the game in general, you'll be treated to possibly the most rewarding experience in all of gaming. The room for improvement in terms of the level of skill in these games (and not relying on difficulty from just cheap bull-shit) is phenomenal. You don't have to become a master to at least eventually get good at the default difficulty setting in NG or DMC, and then when you replay the game you'll initially wonder why it changed and why things are way easier than on your first playthrough than what you remember. And, the answer is that the game didn't change at all. You as a player changed, and you got better. I LOVE that about these games. And yes, various shooters and platformers can boast this as well, but to my knowledge none can do so quite to the extent of something like the aforementioned hack n' slash games which I've been talking about. For a good example, I died 50+ times on my first playthrough of NG2 on Path of the Warrior difficulty. I used tons of healing items on my first run through and had a lot of sloppy fights. Then I beat it, tackled the harder difficulties one at a time, and after struggling through and completing Master Ninja mode, I came back to Path of the Warrior mode to see how much I had improved from my initial playthrough. What used to be an incredibly challenging experience for me now became an utter joke. On a fresh run (NOT a new game +), I was able to clear the entire difficulty with only 1 death in the whole game (due to sloppiness on my part), and I didn't use a single healing item at all throughout the entire experience. Now that's when you know a game isn't just bull-shit cheap deaths, and that you legitimately got much better at it.

2. The Enemies/Bosses- When we're talking about the best hack n' slash games out there, these have every other genre beat flat-out. Sorry, but as much as I love great shooters and platformers (and trust me, I LOVE the best of those genre as well, and Yoshi's Island is easily one of my top 3 favorite games ever made) these just can't compare to the pure awesomeness that you find in the enemies, and especially the boss fights, of games like Ninja Gaiden Black, Devil May Cry, and in this case even MGRR which has amazing boss fights. The key word here is nuance. In regard to both enemies and bosses, games like NGB and DMC1 in particular have such goddamn INTERESTING enemy design. Unfortunately you're not likely going to see teh full extent of what they can do unless you tackle the harder difficulties, but trust me, it's really worth it. With DMC1 in particular, I LOVE how enemies and bosses all have extreme weaknesses that can potentially let you kill them in one-hit, or just a few hits for tougher enemies and bosses. You can of course combo away at them, but it's going to be both time-consuming and very frustrating if you get punished badly. On the other hand, if you have the patience for (and like me, get joy out of) experimentation, you will discover brand new ways to fight enemies that do take skill, but are also incredibly rewarding strategies to master. With games like NGB, on the other hand, while they don't have enemy weaknesses to that extreme, the enemies and bosses can all be thoroughly pulverized in no time flat IF you know what you're doing, and how to best exploit Ryu's deep arsenal of weapons and abilities. For example, the Unlabored Flawlessness can kill ANY boss in just one single attack flat, but the catch is that it's only that powerful when you are at < 5% of your health, which basically means that you'll just die in one more hit. So the risk is that you can only take one hit, and it takes time to charge up an attack, but if you have the boss pattern down, you'll end up destroying a boss that normally takes a few minutes to fight in less than 20 seconds. Or even if you don't use that strategy, you can still completely tear apart bosses that take a long time to initially fight if you know the right ways to attack with your character and how to both avoid their attacks with ease and capitalize on opportunities where they are vulnerable. On the flip side of the coin, though, both enemies and bosses in these games can fuck you over just as easily if you get careless. And what I love about NGB again (and DMC1, as well as Bayonetta, and all of the other great hack n' slash games), is that enemies have A LOT of attacks that they can use per enemy type. Much more so than in other games. So the moment you get cocky and think that you know everything an enemy can possibly due to you, they may give you a rude awakening when all of a sudden their AI starts doing something different that you didn't expect. I don't think that I've ever played a platformer that does this to nearly the same extent, and as far as shooters go, the only ones that I can think of that do anything even close to this level of nuance are F.E.A.R. and Halo. So, yeah, needless to say, I love that about these games among all of the other things that I already love about them.

And finally....

1. The Replay Value is Off the Charts- Yes, I've played plenty of shooters and platformers and fighting games and puzzles games and even sports games with tons of replay value. I love them all. But none of them, and I repeat, none of them come even CLOSE to the replay value of Ninja Gaiden Black or Devil May Cry 3 for me, and even MGRR is once again proving to be insanely replayable with me on my 5th run through the game already, and I'm sure Bayonetta will follow suit once I finally own the game for myself. For me, a lot of this has to do with the harder difficulty settings, and what I get out of them on replays. No other games can do harder difficulties as well as these games do. I've gone over this before, but while most games will just make enemies a little it tougher in terms of taking damage you and the output of damage that they give to you, very few actually enhance the AI to make them both smarter and more aggressive. In games like Ninja Gaiden, Bayonetta, DMC, MGRR, and so forth, the enemies will start using a wider variety of attacks on harder difficulties. In Ninja Gaiden Black in particular, you'll even encounter enemies that never even appeared on Normal or Hard mode, and have to learn new strategies for them. Stuff like Doppleganger Ryu and Berserkers are among the few examples. You essentially have to prove yourself and EARN the right to fight those enemies, which is a great concept. As for the other games in the genre, they will also make harder enemies appear earlier on in the game on harder difficulties, changing up your strategies greatly. Meanwhile, NGB pulls another amazin feat by switching item locations up on you with each higher difficulty setting (and that goes from Normal to Hard to very Hard to Master Ninja mode, so that's across 4 different difficulty settings). A chest that contained a healing item on Normal mode may contain bats or ghost fish that jump out by surprise and attack you on Hard mode, but then it may be a ton of Essence (basically the game's form of currency) on Very Hard mode, and possibly even a weapon on Master Ninja mode (or probably just more ghost fish). It keeps you on your toes with each new difficulty setting and radically varies up the experience. At the same time, though, the game doesn't make you any weaker, so you have all of the same abilities at your disposal as before. You just have to increase your skill level to use them more efficiently and creatively when it comes to strategy. And in one particular example I love, MGRR actually makes your perfect parry insanely more powerful on Revengeance difficulty than on the lower difficulty settings. The catch is that, unless you have healing items equipped, you'll most likely die in one hit from any given enemy, but at the same time if you get good at timing your parries, you can just as easily kill them (or even a group of them at once) in just one hit, yourself (or in the case of bosses, you can cap off 60-70% of their health in a single, well-placed perfect parry). It's the ultimate risk/reward system. These are just a couple of examples of many, but the bottom line is that these games are chalked full of difference on their harder difficulties that will constantly keep you coming back for more.

So, yeah, while there certainly aren't enough games of these types that populate the genre, these core games alone make this genre one of the best ever. If we had more games like them, then I'd say that hack n' slash games would flat-out be the best genre in all of gaming for me, personally. I just wanted to highlight what I loved about these games in the first place. Feel free to share your thoughts on the subject.

[Grave]

1. The Replay Value is Off the Charts- Yes, I've played plenty of shooters and platformers and fighting games and puzzles games and even sports games with tons of replay value. I love them all. But none of them, and I repeat, none of them come even CLOSE to the replay value of Ninja Gaiden Black or Devil May Cry 3 for me, and even MGRR is once again proving to be insanely replayable with me on my 5th run through the game already, and I'm sure Bayonetta will follow suit once I finally own the game for myself.

I understand that this is your opinion, and I respect it, but this is more of a glass half full type of thing. We're talking single player experience here. It'd be better if you take fighting games out of this argument altogether simply for the sake of fighting games aren't really meant to be played as a single player. Granted I understand that not everyone have access to online or wants to pay $50 a month for Live (definitely glad I own both), but the replay value in fighting games comes from training mode and fighting human opponents. You don't get that from fighting the CPU. In a sense the same can be said about FPS (but there's really no training needed for FPSs), but you'll find a lot more people caring more for the single player campaign in a FPS than you would a person looking for story mode in a fighting game.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Most of your reasons apply to why I like platformers (and action platformers) so much, though they are deliberately simplified compared to the combat systems of more recent genres.

Though that's partially me having problems getting my head around combat systems. I think Mega Man Zero is about as good as I've ever gotten with the genre.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I understand that this is your opinion, and I respect it, but this is more of a glass half full type of thing. We're talking single player experience here. It'd be better if you take fighting games out of this argument altogether simply for the sake of fighting games aren't really meant to be played as a single player.

I mentioned fighting games in the wrong context there, but the basic point I was trying to get at is that I just get more overall value out of hack n' slash games (the best of the bunch, anyways) on a personal level than I do out of those other games, single-player or otherwise. True, with fighting games it's more of a multiplayer thing, which I should have specifically mentioned, but while fighting games have great competitive multiplayer and deep combat and such, I do eventually get burned out on those before too long. I think that, at my core, I'm just very much influenced by the types of games that I played most since I was a kid, hence why I love adventure games. That said, I like fighting games for their combat, which no other games can really rival, but what I love about hack n' slash games is that they take a decent fraction of the depth that you would find in a fighting game (obviously not as much since you can't account for the actions between two intelligent human opponents who know the game well) and combine it with light but certainly fun elements of adventure games. That's just the type of game that feels like it's meant specifically for me, which is why I enjoy these types of games more than any other as a genre (well, like I said, almost, anyways; the thing holding it back is the lack of more games like NG, DMC, Bayonetta, etc.).

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Most of your reasons apply to why I like platformers (and action platformers) so much, though they are deliberately simplified compared to the combat systems of more recent genres.

Though that's partially me having problems getting my head around combat systems. I think Mega Man Zero is about as good as I've ever gotten with the genre.

I do realize that the reasons I listed can apply to platformers and FPS games and games from other genres as well. What I suppose I was getting at was that, for me, that select group of really good hack n' slash games offer me all of those features in spades and in one single package, rather than just elements of those. Don't get me wrong, I love the Mario and Sonic and MMX and DKC games (as evidenced by some of those being among my top 25 favorite games ever made), with 3 of those, in fact, having been in my top 10 at some point in time (actually, if I redo my list, I think 3 of them in particular may still be there). It's just that the degree to which I experience those attributes in the sorts of hack n' slash games that I mentioned is hard for most games to compare to. I just wish more games in the genre would follow suit with those

As for the whole combat system thing, keep in mind, I completely and utterly suck at many of these games myself, when I first start them. My first play-through of every DMC game was a complete mess, but these games are clearly meant to be replayed, and it's on the replays that I finally find real value for them when the system starts to chime for me and I end up really understanding just how the game is meant to be played. I think it's all about investing time in and being rewarded for it by getting better at the game. Admittedly that isn't for everyone, but to be honest the best platformers and FPS games are sort of like that for me as well, so it's a gaming philosophy that I just really happen to agree with.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

So, here's a good question. If you were to recommend any single game as a gateway into the hack n' slash genre to someone who's never played that kind of game before, what would it be?

I know a lot of people would probably say God of War. I haven't played enough of any GOW game to comment on that, myself, but it'd probably be the most simple to get into.

I got into the genre by playing NGB, myself, which technically wasn't my first foray into hack n' slash, but it was still among my earliest exposure to the genre. On that note, though, I had patience to get better at the game. The difficulty, while not nearly as bad as people make it out to be, could still conceivably scare off a lot of people until they manage to make it past the learning curve, which does take a while.

Now, on a level of accessibility, I'd say that Bayonetta is probably the best starter, if only because it's not so brutally difficult right from the start. But in terms of style, I could see how it may be overbearing for some people. Now, if someone wasn't shy to dated graphics and voice-acting, I'd say that DMC1 is a good place to start. The camera has it's issues and the game isn't perfect by any means, but it's short and to the point with little to no filler. It's challenging but not enough to scare off people (it's a pretty reasonable challenge, honestly). You'll die a few times at tough sections and enemies/bosses until you learn how to deal with them properly. Overall it's a very simple game, all things considered.

But I wasn't wondering what everyone else who's acclimated with the genre think about this.

[Rynnec]

It really depends on what they're looking for.

If they want something fast paced that makes you feel cool, I point them to DMC4 or Bayonetta, if they're looking for a bit more of a challenge, then I point to DMC3 or Metal Gear Rising.

If they want a simple brawler with a simple combat system for stress relief, then I direct them to GoW or Sengoku Basara (though that can fall under the former category too) and the Musou's, by extension.

If they want something more akin to an Action RPG that takes a while to beat, then Darksiders II and Kingdom Hearts are the games of choice, I believe Witch and the Hundred Knight falls under this category too, but I haven't seen enough gameplay to judge.

If they want something with a complex combat system, then they should get DMC, and Ninja Gaiden if they REALLY want a challenge.

So yeah, it really depends.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

And if they want classic RE in the style of a hack n' slash game, they can either go with DMC1 or the Onimusha games (with the latter, it's if they especially want the RE experience, with tank controls included).

As for DMC3 and 4, I feel like the mechanics are a bit too complex for starters, even if they want the challenge. I didn't think about Darksiders II, but that's not a bad choice for people who want more of an action/RPG type experience.

In terms of more casual experiences, though, GOW or Bayonetta are probably the best places to start. I hesitate to recommend the DW type games if only because they highlight a very specific sub-set of hack n' slash games, and have very different tropes and sensibilities than the more adventure oriented ones that we usually like the most.

[Foggle]

God of War 2 was my first hack 'n slash game. I think that's a really good starting point. It's easily the most well-paced and exciting entry in its respective series (IMO) and simple enough for newcomers while still being engaging. I also think Ninja Gaiden Black is fairly accessible outside of its notoriously high difficulty level. That was actually my second hack 'n slash game, and I did okay with it even then.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Honestly, I feel that critics and gamers alike have been a bit deceptive about NGB's difficulty, in that they make it out to be harder than it really is. To me, it really only just has a steeper learning curve than most other action games. If you get the hang of its mechanics, I think the game is mostly on a reasonable level of difficulty on Normal. There are plenty of healing items lying all over the game that you can pick up, so you shouldn't have to buy that many (I was actually always over-stocked on them when I replayed the game on Normal), and the game gives you the ability to save at any save point as much as you want, so if you're ever scared of having to redo a tough fight after completing it, just go back to the nearest save point and save your status (you can also completely skip any re-spawned enemies that show up along the way, so you don't have to fight them again, either).

Also, I will hold the personal opinion that this game holds the best level design out of any hack n' slash game that I've ever played. Personally, I also think that it's enemy and boss design is on par with the original DMC in terms of interesting mechanics and nuance. Of course, you don't have the criticals like DMC1 had, but as much as people like to flaunt that aspect of the game, I know for a fact that most players hardly ever use them since they aren't that exploitable.