Hack n' Slash games

[Rynnec]

It sucks to have to fight a charging and/or teleporting demon in the middle of a small ass room.

Blitz.

[gunswordfist]

It sucks to have to fight a charging and/or teleporting demon in the middle of a small ass room.

Blitz.

Exactamoodo. They decided to confuse hard with cheap.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Blitz isn't cheap. There are plenty of ways to kill that enemy without taking any damage at all. Don't you guys ever watch gameplay videos from the DMC pros? Even I was able to take out that enemy on DMD mode without losing any health once I found out at least one strategy that worked on it.

[gunswordfist]

For a guy who has no time to enjoy his life, you sure do watch a fuckton of DMC and Halo videos.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

How does going on to Youtube and watching 5-minute videos in your spare time when you need help on a certain section of a game constitute as watching a fuck-ton of videos? Perhaps it just too much for you to handle to look up a video when you want a strategy to fight a tough enemy. At least I'll look up something before up and calling a part of the game cheap just because I'm not good enough to deal with it.

[gunswordfist]

Only n00bs do that.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Only n00bs do that.

Only noobs will blindly claim that something that's too tough for them is cheap difficulty without trying to find out if there's a proper way to tackle those tough situations. That would be you.

Players who legitimately want to get better at games will seek out advice from more experienced players or in this case watch video tutorials demonstrating more advanced methods to tackle tough enemies in a way that evens out the playing field.

The bottom line is that Blitz is not a cheap enemy as it can be handled in multiple ways without taking any damage yourself. The fact that you jumped to the conclusion that its cheap shows your own ignorance and that you just give up way too easily.

[gunswordfist]

You gave me 3 paragraphs for blatant, obvious trolling?

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

So, with the release of the much anticipated hack n' slash game Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance just right around the corner, I figured that now would be a good time bring up the genre in general and ask you all: Just what is it about hack n' slash games that really appeals to you?

As for me, I love how they are essentially the culmination of a fighting game meeting an adventure game. The best games in the genre have deep fighting mechanics that mostly revolves around melee combat, but whereas a pure fighting game is just 2 guys beating the crap out of each other in 1-on-1 competition within a narrow environment, a hack n' slash game combines fighting mechanics with a sense of progression as you explore environments and move from area to area, really making you feel like you are a complete bad-ass going on an epic adventure.

Now, of course my favorite hack n' slash games are the ones that have a superb combat system above anything else. I specifically love games like Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, and Bayonetta for offering up really deep combat systems that have extremely advanced tactics that are hard to learn. The level of potential increase in skill in these games is so phenomenal that you really wouldn't believe how much more skilled you could get at each of them no matter how much you practiced with these games. In this regard, I would NEVER be even close to as good as the pros and experts at any of these games....and honestly, I love that about them. I don't necessarily want to be the best in terms of mastering them, but I just love the sense of feeling that I always have room to improve at these games. It keeps me coming back for more, and when they have really interesting enemy design combined in with their superb combat systems, and really well-developed harder difficulty modes, it gives these games a tremendous amount of replay value. With a game like Ninja Gaiden Black, and even its sequel NG2, I immediately re-started these games on their harder difficulty modes upon completing their default difficulties, and I kept moving up until I could conquer both of them on Master Ninja mode. It was extremely challenging but insanely rewarding in how good it felt each time I made myself get better in order to make it through each new challenge that these games threw my way.

With DMC3, I am currently playing it on Very Hard, and I like that the game is constantly forcing me to adapt to new strategies as I realize that I have a much smaller margin of error that I'm allowed to work with as I tackle this game's stricter challenges. The fact that I also have another playable character, in the form of Vergil, waiting for me to replay the entire game with once I'm done with my Dante play-through only adds to high level value that a game like this has. For whatever reason, no other genre of gaming compels me to get that much better at them than hack n' slash games do. Of course, I'm really only referring to the select few hack n' slash games that are at the top of their genre. There are of course a ton of mediocre ones that don't have nearly as much value to them, but these few games alone that I love so much are really all that I need to sustain my interest in the genre. I'm really hoping that the up coming MGRR truly delivers in this regard. I've been dying for a new hack n' slash game to really sustain my interest after the hugely disappointing NG3 from last year. I'm sure that games like DmC and Darksiders 2 are plenty of fun in their own right, but I only trust developers such as Platinum in this day and age to truly deliver on what I really want from the genre, given their experience in making these kinds of games.

[Rynnec]

So, with the release of the much anticipated hack n' slash game Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance just right around the corner, I figured that now would be a good time bring up the genre in general and ask you all: Just what is it about hack n' slash games that really appeals to you?

I've always been a fan of action, especially over-the-top or well-choreographied action, be it in animation, comics, movies, etc. unfortunately very few videogames provided satisfying enough combat systems to satisfy my appetite for action. Fighting games came close, but those were mostly only really satisfying if you were playing against a human opponent, and even then you had to be at least around the same skill level to really get that "thrill" I was looking for (at least for me). Games like Kingdom Hearts II had very flashy combat and some challenging bosses, but the combat itself, while it quite a few good concepts, wasn't very deep. It wasn't until I played DMC3 a few years ago that I found exactly the kind of action and combat I wanted from an action game. I loved how smooth and speedy the combat was, I loved how it had the right mix of style, flashiness, and depth, and I loved how rewarding it felt when I slowly got better at the combat. Naturally I wanted more of it, so eventually I got DMC4, tried out a few demo's of whatever hack'n slash I could find (including Ninja Gaiden Sigma, which I also eventually bought), looked up gameplay videos of (and eventually playing) Bayonetta, watched a bunch of combo video's from pro players, it was like I finally found the genre I was "born" to play.

To me, hack'n slash games like DMC, Bayonetta and Metal Gear Rising are the games that are the most sucessful of making you feel "badass". Most games these days make that their main objective, but most of them try to go about that by making it the combat so casual that they become shallow, having player characters with designs that are bland as hell and personalities and backstories that are more "relateable (read: horribly bland, boring, and borderline irritating). This is the mistake Ninja Theory made with DmC, the mistake Team Ninja made with NG3, and the mistake the developers of the new Tomb Raider are making. I just wish we had more DMC-style hack'n slashes out there.

[Grave]

As for me, I love how they are essentially the culmination of a fighting game meeting an adventure game.

I had to catch myself because I was getting ready to disagree with you on that mainly because of DMC, and because Capcom actually managed to transfer most of Dante's (and Vergil's) moveset to MvC3, I cannot disagree, but I would say Ninja Gaiden and Shenmue (especially Shenmue) felt closer to a fighting game than the rest of the games in the genre. Anyway, I agree with you on that.

As for your question. Mainly the overall fun-factor I get outta these games. I don't need deep mechanics (hell, I'm enjoying the Musou games for crying out loud, and it's also why I can enjoy the God of War series moreso than other people), but they do add to the overall experience once you get the hang of said game. I don't need a story, but if the story is presented in a way that I can become interested in it, by all means. The one thing I'd say I need in my games is a likable or decent character to play as. This is why I can't get into Bayonetta (and Kingdom Hearts). Her character just felt so "blah". And finally, there's the need to come home after a stressful day at work and just cut folks up or bash their faces in to release some of that aggression.

I dare say Darksiders 2 just might top out as my favorite over everything else since it has everything that I like. The combat feels good and visceral at the same time, giving it that God of War feeling, making it feel more satisfying. A very likable character who is indeed a badass. And then the quest itself, while I haven't played much of the game yet, feels like I won't get bored of it. Graphics are great. Artwork is great. Will definitely get back to the game once I take a break from SSF4 (if I take a break from it)

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

As I've said before, I just love the whole "bad-ass" on an adventure concept of the hack n' slash genre. I mean, in reality, only very few games in the genre get it right to stand out, but those few games really make it one of my favorite genres in all of gaming.

To me, there are 2 ways that a hack n' slash game can excel at this sort of gameplay. The first and most obvious is the DMC approach, which its unofficial spiritual successor, Bayonetta, also embodies in its core concept. In this style of gameplay, the emphasis is put on giving your character a ton of bad-ass abilities at their disposal, however you can only really experience those bad-ass moves through practice. You have to build up your skill, but once you know the finer points of the combat in these games, then you're on fire with how awesome you feel at linking together flashy and complex combos. These games are also a ton of fun to replay on higher difficulties, but the main thing I will remember them for is just how fun it is to really experiment with the vast about of combat options in this game once you truly understand how their mechanics work.

The other type of way to succeed at making you feel like a true bad-ass in a hack n' slash game is the way Ninja Gaiden does it, which is my personal favorite approach, as well. Whereas DMC and Bayonetta put more emphasis on combos, Ninja Gaiden emphasizes all aspects of combat in general. That is to say, defense and acrobats has just as much weight as a good offense. The game does support some sick combos and a superb combat system, but "combat" is NG isn't merely just pulling off moves. It is a blend of everything, including dodging, blocking, countering, and attacking. The part where you feel bad-ass is when you can successfully perform all of these elements in regular battle, which also takes a lot of skill to understand but feels amazing when you can pull it all off. You feel bad-ass not because you took down your enemies with ease and toyed with them in the process, but because you fought extremely tough enemies and prevailed with pure skill on every level, which in many ways is what I consider the epitomy of being bad-ass. That said, I just love how combat in NG is based on mixture of skill, strategy, and efficiency. It can also be really flashy, and you'd be surprised at how sick some of the combos are in the 2nd game in regard to what people can pull off (seriously, you can perform and Underworld Drop on an enemy from well over a hundred feet up on top of a clock tower....that's fucking amazing), but I'll always admire the first 2 games for their extremely fun and challenging enemy AI, and superbly fluid martial arts-like acrobats.

Overall, I consider Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, and Ninja Gaiden to be the kings (and queen, I suppose) of the genre. I wish more games would follow in the foot-steps of either of these series. Sadly, it seems that no other developers that make action games in this vein seem to get just why these titles are so great. From what I've seen, a lot of the base gameplay in most of these other games seems to closer resemble Ninja Gaiden, though in that vein the developers are really trying to emulate God of War instead, which just happens to have a system that feels more derived from NG than DMC (though puts more emphasis on DMC-like combos, ironically). By that, I mean that it goes for the light and heavy attack system that is used in NG games. However, none of these games have the same sort of focus as NG has in terms of designing really interesting enemy AI or extremely fluid feeling movements. Meanwhile, they pale in comparison to both DMC and Bayonetta as well, since most of them can't even manage to come close to the level of nuance and precision that those titles have to their combat mechanics, and a lot of those games don't utilize lock-on which I feel is pretty necessary for a combo heavy game, which requires that level of precision to be played on a deeper level (NG isn't really centered around combos, which is why it works just fine without the lock-on system for the type of game that it is).

Then again, maybe I'm just a biased prick, but I haven't found any games that I like nearly as much as what I personally consider to be the "Big 3" of the genre. Its sad for me that the NG and DMC series are both headed in downward directions. In DMC's case, it at least had a fairly decent reboot, but I'm pretty convinced that the NG series is officially dead in terms of ever having any hopes of achieving its former glory. Its a shame, because I really loved the indirect rivalry that these 2 series had between the first 2 NG games and DMC 3 and 4 (with each respective entry being released roughly around the same window of time). I always love when there are rivaling series in any genre of gaming that both boast high levels of quality (like classic Mario and Sonic when it comes to platforming, or any number of the various rival fighting game series out there), and I would have loved to see a heated rivalry between to top-tier series like these (or at least they used to be) continue into the future of the hack n' slash genre. As we stand now, though, it looks as though Plantinum Games will be the only developers making any high quality hack n' slash games within the near future.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Oh, I also forgot to mention that I wish more games had real "personality" to them the way that DMC games do. I don't necessarily mean that they all have to be as over-the-top as DMC games. What I mean is that I'd love it if more characters in hack n' slash games were one less note. It wouldn't hurt to crack a smile or a joke every now and then, or at least have a sense of humor about themselves. I don't mean that they need to be spewing out one-liners like Dante does, but it'd be great if more characters had more to their personality than just being angry ass-holes on a quest to kill everything in their path (this is my main problem with Kratos). Even Ryu could do with some more substance to his character....but not the absolutely dumb-ass "substance" that Team Ninja tried to add to his character in NG3, which further goes along the line of what I HATE about most other characters in the genre. For something like NG, they should further exploit Ryu's sense of honor, which I find to be a bit of a rare entity in these sorts of games despite how basic it may seem. For instance, one of the few memorable moments in the story-line of an NG game was when Ryu defended Genshin's honor in NG2, when Elizabet kicked his dead body and showed him complete disrespect for being defeated by Ryu. Despite Genshin being Ryu's greatest adversary at the time from the Hayabusa's arch enemy clan, Ryu still had a lot of respect for him as another clan leader just looking out or his own. In the end, he didn't really hate him like he hated the Fiends that he had to slay. In this case, they were just 2 leaders of opposing clans that were pretty much destined to be enemies, and for that neither of them truly harbored any real hate towards the other. They were just doing what needed to be done, and it was really cool how after being defeated, Genshin granted Ryu with his blade before dying, symbolizing that he was the true victor, and even pretty much saying that he didn't hold any resentment toward Ryu for just carrying out his duty.

At any rate, my basic point of all that rambling is that I love moments were a character can show that there is more to them than just running around and killing things. I wish Ryu could exhibit more sides of himself in future NG games, just like how he showed his sense of honor in NG2. In that vein, I wish that more characters could have more defining characterisitics. This is what I like so much about Dante. He can easily switch from being a bad-ass to being a complete goof-ball to being surprisingly serious when the situation calls for it. His character isn't deep by any means, but its easily the most dynamic and entertaining character that I've ever personally seen in the genre to date.

[Foggle]

I love the way the combat in hack n slash games plays out visually when you do well. Ninja Gaiden, Bayonetta, DMC, etc. are all fun to watch, but they're even better to play for yourself if you know what you're doing. I like how games like these are usually challenging without being overly frustrating (on Normal/Hard modes), because I am not very good at video games, but I still don't want to play something that's too easy. And, of course, I love anything that plays out like a real adventure, which is why I'd consider NGB and Bayo to be my two favorites in the genre.

Oh, I also forgot to mention that I wish more games had real "personality" to them the way that DMC games do.

Yep!

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Alright, after some thought put into it, I decided to rank the hack n' slash games that I've played at least a good chunk of in terms of how much I like their combat (not in terms of actual depth, but just how much satisfaction I get out of it). Also, its been way too long since I've played certain games (like the Otogi games), so I'll have to leave some stuff off from this list. Of course this ranking is very subjective and I am obviously VERY biased for Ninja Gaiden games.

Ninja Gaiden 2/Sigma 2 (Ryu) > Devil May Cry 4 (Dante) > Bayonetta = DMC3 (Dante) > Ninja Gaiden Black/Sigma (Ryu) > DMC 3 (Vergil) = DMC4 (Nero) > DMC1 > God of War (original) > Shinobi (PS2) > Genji: Dawn of the Samurai > Onimusha 2 > DMC2

And as for my rankings on my favorite games based on the overall package:

NGB > DMC3 > Bayonetta > DMC1 > NG2 > DMC4 > Onimusha 2 > Shinobi > God of War > Genji > DMC2

Everything up to God of War I consider to be good games (I'm not a fan of GoW, but that doesn't mean that I'll say its not still well-made), and the other 2 games are easily the weakest titles in the genre that I've played in full.