Hack n' Slash games

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

First of all, I would argue that these games should count as beat-em-ups, or at least a sub-category of beat-em-ups, since they are basically the same exact concept except with weapons applied to them. But people have argued with me that they are somehow 2 completely different genre, so going by popular opinion I decided to create a thread for this particular "genre" (seriously, they are basically just beat-em-ups at their core, though) of gaming.

Now, popular opinion will tell you that either God of War or Bayonetta are the current leaders of this genre, and some will say DMC because it basically started hack n' slashes. I myself would lean towards Bayonetta and Ninja Gaiden (with the latter being of the least popular opinion for a mixture of some understandable, but also some pretty unfair and untrue, reasons). I would have said DMC at one point but I basically feel that Kamiya outdid what he did with DMC1, and what Capcom did with any of the DMC sequels, with Bayonetta.

To me, a good hack n' slash game should combine both fast and fluid action (containing a fairly varied/diverse and robust combat system) with a fair amount of challenge, and some good level design couldn't hurt, either.

I should mention about my current progress in DMC4 in Son of Sparda mode. So far I'm enjoying the game a little bit more than I did the first time through, but its also a perfect example of containing some of the things that a hack n' slash game shouldn't do, and that's adding in way more platforming than is needed when the game's controls and camera clearly aren't meant to support that type of gameplay. Also, I really wish more games than just Ninja Gaiden would try to improve enemy AI for these types of games so that they don't just take abuse most of the time and follow pretty predictable attack patterns (they can still be both unpredictable and tough while also being fair). Even Kamiya, as awesome as the guy is, was complaining that nobody had done anything to further the genre since DMC1, but with Bayonetta he still hadn't done anything about the AI, which was one of the things I was sure he would try to improve (too bad he said he'd never play Ninja Gaiden, since I think that would prove that at least one other Japanese hack n' slash game has picked up the baton from DMC1, with Bayonetta still doing so but not being the first to do so, IMO).

Overall, though, I think that there are really 2 types of hack n' slash games by this point. There are the ones that are meant more to be about stylish combos and flashy moves (DMC, Bayonetta), whereas there are the others that are more grounded and are more about speed/agility, reflexes, and strategy (Ninja Gaiden). I love both game types, and the reason why I said that I consider Bayonetta and Ninja Gaiden to both be at the lead of the hack n' slash genre (only from my personal perspective), is because I feel that each one is the best at doing their respective type of gameplay within that genre (with Bayonetta being the current master of style and combo-based combat, and NG being the master of the speed and strategy-based combat).

Anyways, what do other people have to say about any hack n' slash games or the "genre" in general?

[Spark Of Spirit]

One thing I like about this series is that you can play it as a shooter or a hack n slash, and I play it as the latter. The series has fantastic level design, a nice pocket of moves, a killer soundtrack, and a protagonist that gets things done without whining about it. Best of all, unlike every other Mega Man series, there's no filler or duff games leading to a fantastic pacing that the other MM series usually lack.

It also features the one thing missing from playing as Zero in the X series. The X games are usually about playing fast and dodging like a pro, but in the X series, Zero's range is too borked to reliably hit anything without getting hit himself. Here they fixed it so that you can fly all over the screen and still combo enemies like a pro.

EDIT: Video's gone

Even at my best I can still do no better than A Ranks (sometimes S, but not too often), but they are not necessary to progress, just for bragging rights and extra skills. But a game that rewards you for mastering it (and doesn't punish you for being bad at it, it just encourages you to do better) is my favorite style of action game.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Yet another reason why I need to get a Nintendo DS. Well, thanks to the 3DS the older DS models should come down in price drastically, now (or at least I would hope so).

BTW, Has anyone tried playing the new Dishwasher game yet? I heard it did a good job of improving upon the faults of the first game and is a much better overall game (and from what I played of the first game I thought it was already pretty good to begin with, to be honest).

[Foggle]

I've never understood why Ninja Gaiden is not looked upon as favorably as the rest of the "big 4" hack 'n slash franchises (big 3 if you don't consider Bayonetta to be a franchise yet). It's rare that I see anyone criticize it using any explanation other than "it's hard" (so are the first and third DMC games) or "the camera is bad" (even though it's far better than the ones in DMC 1 and the first two God of War games).

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I've never understood why Ninja Gaiden is not looked upon as favorably as the rest of the "big 4" hack 'n slash franchises (big 3 if you don't consider Bayonetta to be a franchise yet). It's rare that I see anyone criticize it using any explanation other than "it's hard" (so are the first and third DMC games) or "the camera is bad" (even though it's far better than the ones in DMC 1 and the first two God of War games).

Its mostly for 2 main reasons:

1. It was developed by Tomonobu Itagaki, who a lot of people hate basically because he dissed Tekken a long time ago and because he made Dead Or Alive, which a lot of the more hardcore fighting gamers hate with a passion. Because of this there is a preconceived bias towards the 3D NG games simply because its attached to his name (also there are some of the purist NG fans who hate him for making the 3D NG games which are almost nothing like the classic NES games, but surprisingly enough there aren't far too many people like that as one would expect for a type of game series like this).

2. Ninja Gaiden II was rushed when it was developed and hence had balance issues. Now don't get me wrong, while I admit its far from perfect, the criticisms of it being horribly unbalanced to the point of being cheap is incredibly overblown, but even so the problem lies in the fact that a lot more people played this game than NGB. If you look on Game Rankings, NGB is STILL the highest rated hack n' slash game of all time (most people aren't even actually aware of this, as even Bayonetta hasn't surpassed its ranking yet). However the problem is that it was released on the original XBOX which means that almost nobody really played it (and Sigma had horrible marketing so it sold even shittier than the XBOX version of the game). As for NG2, it was released when the XBOX360 was already a popular console so a lot more people had access to it and played it, and it just so happens that a lot of them were casual gamers, and NG2 didn't cave in to the casual gaming crowd like its competitors did (actually I'd argue that it did, but I suppose somehow a bunch of people fond Acolyte mode to be "unbearably" difficult....which I'll personally never be able to fully understand), so a lot of people ended up hating it for its difficulty.

As for the camera, to be fair God of War's camera works for its gameplay. While I'm not a fan of that game, I will say I never had a problem with its camera. As for DMC, its camera is only really a bitch when any platforming segments come into play. DMC4 is the biggest offender of this. I honestly have no problems with it when it comes to the combat of the game, though, as I have yet to be attacked by an enemy from off-screen.

As for Ninja Gaiden, I honestly RARELY ever had any problems with NGB's camera. I feel that its one of those minor things that critics criticized more because they had very few things to even criticize about the game back then (they even admitted that there wasn't much that they could fault it for to begin with). However NG2 does have a worse camera, but its nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be. A lot of people are used to the fixed-style of cameras from God of War and DMC (I know that you can move the camera in DMC, but in a lot of areas its still fixed in place). So people get mad in NG when its much closer in on the action and they get attacked from off-screen. What a lot of people don't seem to realize is that the camera is designed in such a way in which your meant to have as much free-control over it as possible, and a lot of people are too lazy to adjust the camera "to their advantage" (as its actually quite useful when you realize how moving the camera around at your own free-will allows you to pick the ideal position that you want it at for certain battles). That said, though, it can still be very annoying at battles in which you fight powerful ranged enemies, such as the Chapter 9 twin dragon boss fight which clearly wasn't meant to be played with this sort of camera.

Overall, though, the camera in NG2 is far from terrible, and in some cases I actually prefer the fact that you can freely move it at a quick speed as opposed to being stuck to just one camera angle that the game developers decided to choose for me, against my own free will.

The reason why games like NGB and DMC3 got praise back when they were released was because that was still a time when both reviewers and many gamers actually really respected games that could be highly challenging but completely fair and rewarding with their gameplay. Also it helps that both games were very technically impressive for their time, so they wowed a lot of critics on their graphics and fluid animations alone. That said, times have changed since then, and critics and many gamers seem to care more about how flashy a game is and how much fun they can have with as little effort as possible over the actual substance and rewarding feeling of mastering a fairly challenging game.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Shit....I went overboard again....well, its nothing new coming from me by now.

[gunswordfist]

I say 3D hack 'n slash and beat em ups should be considered two different genres. I say this based on level design. Hack n slashes usually have platforming. Beat em ups tend to be strickly on the streets or whatever with either a kind of a sandbox world (The Warriors) or ones where you can only go forward (Fighting Force).

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

The platforming elements in most hack n' slash games are usually really light, though, like with Ninja Gaiden in which they are really few and far in-between. In general most hack n' slash games don't contain nearly enough platforming to really consider platforming a major factor that differs them from regular beat-em-up games. Also that logic alone can't separate them since there are always exceptions to the rule. For example, the Power Rangers beat-em-up on the SNES has quite a bit of platforming in it, yet its still considered a beat-em-up, so I don't think platforming should be a real factor in deciding the difference between them. The Dishwasher games are 2D games but they are considered hack n' slash games, so I'm not sure if 2D and 3D really makes the difference between it being a beat-em-up or a hack n' slash either. From what I've seen of Mega Man Zero, it also has all of the elements you would expect from a hack n' slash, but its also 2D.

As for what makes beat-em-up and hack n' slash games completely different genres, I'd like to hear what Desensitized has to say about that matter, seeing as how he's the resident beat-em-up expert on our board.

Personally, though, I still stand by my opinion that hack n' slash games are basically just a sub-category of beat-em-ups, with the beat-em-up category itself basically being a sub-category of the action game genre.

[Spark Of Spirit]

The main difference between a hack n' slash and a beat 'em up, from what I can gather, is usually speed. Though there are slow hack n slash games and fast beat em ups (Golden Axe: Revenge Of Death Adder and Viewtiful Joe come to mind immediately), they both seem to follow similar ideas.

Beat em ups are usually focused on anticipating at a leisurely pace and dealing out damage in a similar manner. For instance, in Streets Of Rage to get the most damaging attacks out of Axel you have to carefully time your hits to stun the enemy and space button presses in order to not knock the enemy over but do as much damage as possible such as a falling knee drop into a back-suplex on a rising opponent or three slow punches into a grabbing headbutt. Tactics vary on enemies, but you can usually go at your own pace and going fast, even with fast characters is usually a bad idea. Beat em ups are more about enemy encounters and less about level design, though both are important, the first is always more so.

From what I can tell, even games like the Warriors and God Hand follow this same principle.

Hack n Slash requires mastery of the level design itself and multiple weapons over anticipating enemy behavior. While it is important to know your enemy in every action game, knowing your weapons and what they can or can't do is by far the most crucial element to the design. As is knowing your environment in order to speed your way through.

Also, the main reason 2D games have platforming elements is because they can add dynamic situations into the combat to make it feel more exciting. 3D games don't do this as much because they are able to have a lot more going on screen and adding things like hopping platforms while fighting off 4-5 enemies and oncoming projectiles is too much for the average player. Which is why usually when they contain those elements, it is usually separate from the fighting.  With 2D you can see all the action going on, so platforming at the same time is not as much of a distraction from the action.

It all originates from Irem's Kung Fu, anyway. Then everyone got their own ideas and we got fighting games, beat em ups, hack n slashers, and even action RPGs based on the simple concept that game brought out.

But, IMO, I do think all of them have different styles to the same formula, so it is easy to see why some prefer certain takes on the idea over others.

[gunswordfist]

The platforming elements in most hack n' slash games are usually really light, though, like with Ninja Gaiden in which they are really few and far in-between. In general most hack n' slash games don't contain nearly enough platforming to really consider platforming a major factor that differs them from regular beat-em-up games. Also that logic alone can't separate them since there are always exceptions to the rule. For example, the Power Rangers beat-em-up on the SNES has quite a bit of platforming in it, yet its still considered a beat-em-up, so I don't think platforming should be a real factor in deciding the difference between them. The Dishwasher games are 2D games but they are considered hack n' slash games, so I'm not sure if 2D and 3D really makes the difference between it being a beat-em-up or a hack n' slash either. From what I've seen of Mega Man Zero, it also has all of the elements you would expect from a hack n' slash, but its also 2D.

As for what makes beat-em-up and hack n' slash games completely different genres, I'd like to hear what Desensitized has to say about that matter, seeing as how he's the resident beat-em-up expert on our board.

Personally, though, I still stand by my opinion that hack n' slash games are basically just a sub-category of beat-em-ups, with the beat-em-up category itself basically being a sub-category of the action game genre.

What part of me saying 3D did you not understand? I bolded it specifically so we could avoid this shout fest.  But seriously, I consider 2D hack n slashes and beat em ups to be in the same genre due to how they usually have players on street level and that they have them advance through the levels in the same way. Yes, 3D hack n slash usually don't have that much platforming but you got to admit that their level designs are usually drastically different than beat em ups. The levels in The Warriors are nothing like Devil May Cry's.

[gunswordfist]

I've never understood why Ninja Gaiden is not looked upon as favorably as the rest of the "big 4" hack 'n slash franchises (big 3 if you don't consider Bayonetta to be a franchise yet). It's rare that I see anyone criticize it using any explanation other than "it's hard" (so are the first and third DMC games) or "the camera is bad" (even though it's far better than the ones in DMC 1 and the first two God of War games).

God, I hate when people whine about how hard some hack n slashes are. I don't sympathize with anything less than having to grind through The Thing or that damn Serious Same The First Encounter demo I can't get past.

[Lord Dalek]

End of discussion.

[Spark Of Spirit]

^Revenge Of Death Adder is better. 

[Angus]

They seem to be the same to me; one genre favors weapons with occasional power spell and the others prefer fists with the occasional weapon/vehicle/animal. Some have damage bars thanks to games like Final Fight, and they generally have more linear fighting sequences than platforming or puzzle solving. Plenty of small fries to make you feel like you can kick ass before the boss does the same to you.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

End of discussion.

End of what discussion?