Yu Yu Hakusho

[Spark Of Spirit]

Rewatching everything up to the end of the Dark Tournament, I have to say that while the DT is undoubtedly a better arc as a whole, I still preferred watching the Spirit Detective arc as a whole even if the Maze Beast arc was a bit too long in the tooth (DIE ALREADY BYAKKO) I was just more interested in the story at that point.

It's still a great arc, but I do think as a whole I find the first arc more engaging.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG7X7sp_22s&feature=player_embedded

Yuyu Hakusho KAI! 

Heh, Saw that earlier today myself. This is basically why FUNimation is still surviving as an anime distributor compared to companies like Geneon and various others, they don't just half-ass their releases and they actually put a lot of effort into their products and now have quite a talented VA pool. Even though they are only re-recording a few lines from various minor characters throughout the entire series, it'd still be interesting to see just to hear the improved voice-acting quality. I mean, Justin Cook did say that they have completely re-recorded Sniper's lines and a good deal of Suzuki's, so I'd definitely be up for hearing what that sounds like in comparison to the old dub (granted that this IS still the old dub, except with a few minor replacements).

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Rewatching everything up to the end of the Dark Tournament, I have to say that while the DT is undoubtedly a better arc as a whole, I still preferred watching the Spirit Detective arc as a whole even if the Maze Beast arc was a bit too long in the tooth (DIE ALREADY BYAKKO) I was just more interested in the story at that point.

It's still a great arc, but I do think as a whole I find the first arc more engaging.

Eh, To be honest I feel kind of the opposite. There are some individual parts of the Spirit Detective arc that I like quite a lot, and maybe more than a lot of great moments from the DT arc, but on the whole I prefer the DT arc as aside from the Team Ichigaki fights, it was more consistent in quality. I do really like the arc with Yusuke as a Ghost as its both a unique and very strong opening to the series, but then the arc after that is pretty standard and is only useful in introducing Hiei and Kurama, and then Genkai's tournament arc after that is OK, but still kind of average by the series's later standards. The Saint Beasts arc is probably my leas favorite self-contained arc in YYH, with the exception of the first 2 episodes just for having Hiei and Kurama team up with Yusuke and Kuwabara for the first time, which is admittedly still pretty cool. After that is the Rescue Yukina arc, which I'd say is definitely the high point of the Spirit Detective arc (aside from the first few episodes which to me stand on their own since they are so different from any other part of the series, but in a very good way), and serves as a really nice transition into the Dark Tournament arc. Overall I'd say that the Spirit Detective arc is pretty good for a first season compared to how lackluster most shonen series are in their first seasons on the whole, but I definitely felt that the Dark Tournament arc was more enjoyable and kept me watching more, if only because it just felt like there was more at stake in how Yusuke and his teams were constantly outlcassed by most of their opponents and really had to think up some really clever strategies in order to survive the fights. I also felt that it was more effective with its emotional moments by that point in time.

Of course, what came after that blew anything the series had previous done out of the water, and that isn't to say that it makes them seem bad in comparison (that's impossible, because YYH was still an extremely great series to me even before I saw the Chapter Black arc), but when I saw how much darker and more plot-oriented the series really got by the time Sensui stepped into the picture, I didn't find myself missing the fight-heavy arcs from before. Togashi is clearly just as good at telling an extremely interesting story with really memorable villains as he is at constructing intense and strategic fights.

I can't for the life of me understand those fans who think that the series plummeted downhill in quality after the Dark Tournament arc. My guess is that they are just those annoying action-hungry shonen fans that don't really even care for the series's more intelligent execution of traditional shonen-themed stories, and instead just like it for the most generic reasons that they like every other generic shonen out there. There is absolutely nothing that the Chapter Black arc does that is inferior to anything that the previous arcs did, or the proceeding arc for that matter. Its quite clearly the series's high point, and I don't really see how that is even debatable at all.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Well yeah, I agree that the Dark Tournament arc is better than the Spirit Detective arc, I just somehow found myself more engaged in the latter. The Dark Tournament has a lot of great moments (The team Masho fight is my personal highlight) and is a bit long in the tooth compared to every other arc, but as far as tournament arcs go it's probably the best there is.

But they should have just had Hiei fight everyone. He never loses!

I loved the series up to the end of the Dark Tournament, but Chapter Black is when it became an all time favorite for me. I really wouldn't have had any qualms with it ending there, either. Not to say the last arc was anything bad, but if he actually fleshed it out (instead of ending it because he was tired) it probably could have matched up to the rest of the series, but ends up falling a bit short because it didn't get the attention it deserved.

The series is still a blast to watch.

[Aurora]

Well after seeing the whole thing I have to say my biggest complaints about the final season are:


- No huge disastrous threat against the Living and/or Spirit Worlds.


- No reasons to dislike any of the demons. I didn't want one-dimensional cliche enemies, but if there's no one to really dislike then whats the sense rooting for our 3 heroes if there's no one to dislike?

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Actually, there was a threat. The Three Kingdoms of the Demon World were on the brink of war, and while it wouldn't have been a problem for Spirit World and the Human World if either Raizen's or Mukuro's sides had one, Koenma stated that it would be a big problem if Yomi had one since he planned to merge the Demon and Human realms together, not understanding that humans (most of whom weren't even aware of the existence of demons) were not ready for such a merge to take place. It basically would have allowed wild and monstrous S class demons to roam freely around the human world and wreck havoc and cause widespread chaos and panic. So, yeah, I'd say that's a pretty big threat if you think about it. Yusuke designed the tournament as a more peaceful way to find a resolution and get a unified leader for Demon World, which is my personal problem with the arc since it doesn't seem the least bit believable that anyone would agree to those conditions.

[gunswordfist]

As much as I love Smile Bomb, I have to say I prefer the second opening animation for the song more. Not because it's very Chapter Black centered (as that was when it was used), but because it feels more general for the tone of the whole series. The first intro animation is good, but I think the second is just way better.

Oh yeah, I started watching the show again. 

Shit, either I forgot that Chapter Black intro or the DVDs never had it. Either way, Smile Bomb can't be beat. Watching Kurama power up was the business when I was 14!

[gunswordfist]

Well, both Koenma and Kurama mentioned that back before the Dark Tournament began Hiei was at the level of a D class demon (though, keep in mind that he used to be of a higher class until he got the Jagan Eye implanted in him, which drained him of most of his energy causing him to have to build his power back up from scratch), and naturally Kurama would have been around the same general level. While I don't believe that there were any official rankings for the Saint Beasts, most fans pretty much agree that the Saint Beasts were of the lower to mid C-class level (with Suzaku being the strongest among them, obviously). I find this to be a little odd, though, and can't completely agree with it myself given how easily Seiryu was defeated, but its possible that Hiei and the others may have also just been lower C-class demons by that point in time (it would especially make sense for Yusuke to be around that level of strength since he had just undergone some training with Genkai).
In terms of consistency, though, you shouldn't go too much by what anyone said in the Spirit Detective arc. Back then its obvious that Togashi didn't have things well planned out and changed things along as the series progressed. Most of the consistent information starts from the Dark Tournament arc and goes onward from there.

I get what you mean, but watching it again, I do spot some things that caught my eye about the Saint Beasts. The Saint Beasts were not (except Suzaku, clearly) physically much stronger than someone like Rando, but they had special powers that gave them the edge in battle. Genbu could form into rock to avoid mortal blows, Byakko could absorb energy, and Seiryu could freeze anything within a split second. None of them were traditionally strong other than Suzaku, they all relied on powers to do their work for them which is why I was curious at what their overall rank would be considered.

Kurama only got hurt because he was sloppy and Hiei didn't have much trouble at all, which lead me to believe that outside of their gimmicks, they weren't as strong as someone like Rando or anyone from the early Dark Tournament rounds. Sort of like how ranks didn't matter in Chapter Black because of territories, I assumed they would be skewed here too.

The only other part that really struck me was how all of Toguro's men in the Rescue Yukina arc were rather weak. Or maybe that's because Yusuke and Kuwabara improved so much.

How strong Rando is has confused me for like 10 years. Hmmm, I think it might have been because of how powerful his spirit gun was and how Yusuke got lucky in their fight. Maybe mainly because Rando claimed his spirit gun was so many times better than Yusuke's. Also, another head scratcher, the guy with the full hand spiritgun. I think he said he could do that an infinite number of times. And again, another claim about how much stronger it is than Yusuke's. Uh..what? Outside of Hiei attacking Kayko those are the things that confused me the most in the series.

Rewatching everything up to the end of the Dark Tournament, I have to say that while the DT is undoubtedly a better arc as a whole, I still preferred watching the Spirit Detective arc as a whole even if the Maze Beast arc was a bit too long in the tooth (DIE ALREADY BYAKKO) I was just more interested in the story at that point.

It's still a great arc, but I do think as a whole I find the first arc more engaging.

Eh, To be honest I feel kind of the opposite. There are some individual parts of the Spirit Detective arc that I like quite a lot, and maybe more than a lot of great moments from the DT arc, but on the whole I prefer the DT arc as aside from the Team Ichigaki fights, it was more consistent in quality. I do really like the arc with Yusuke as a Ghost as its both a unique and very strong opening to the series, but then the arc after that is pretty standard and is only useful in introducing Hiei and Kurama, and then Genkai's tournament arc after that is OK, but still kind of average by the series's later standards. The Saint Beasts arc is probably my leas favorite self-contained arc in YYH, with the exception of the first 2 episodes just for having Hiei and Kurama team up with Yusuke and Kuwabara for the first time, which is admittedly still pretty cool. After that is the Rescue Yukina arc, which I'd say is definitely the high point of the Spirit Detective arc (aside from the first few episodes which to me stand on their own since they are so different from any other part of the series, but in a very good way), and serves as a really nice transition into the Dark Tournament arc. Overall I'd say that the Spirit Detective arc is pretty good for a first season compared to how lackluster most shonen series are in their first seasons on the whole, but I definitely felt that the Dark Tournament arc was more enjoyable and kept me watching more, if only because it just felt like there was more at stake in how Yusuke and his teams were constantly outlcassed by most of their opponents and really had to think up some really clever strategies in order to survive the fights. I also felt that it was more effective with its emotional moments by that point in time.

Of course, what came after that blew anything the series had previous done out of the water, and that isn't to say that it makes them seem bad in comparison (that's impossible, because YYH was still an extremely great series to me even before I saw the Chapter Black arc), but when I saw how much darker and more plot-oriented the series really got by the time Sensui stepped into the picture, I didn't find myself missing the fight-heavy arcs from before. Togashi is clearly just as good at telling an extremely interesting story with really memorable villains as he is at constructing intense and strategic fights.

I can't for the life of me understand those fans who think that the series plummeted downhill in quality after the Dark Tournament arc. My guess is that they are just those annoying action-hungry shonen fans that don't really even care for the series's more intelligent execution of traditional shonen-themed stories, and instead just like it for the most generic reasons that they like every other generic shonen out there. There is absolutely nothing that the Chapter Black arc does that is inferior to anything that the previous arcs did, or the proceeding arc for that matter. Its quite clearly the series's high point, and I don't really see how that is even debatable at all.

I agree that Dark Tournament is better than Spirit Detective (hmm, in this thread is the first time I've heard all the early arcs being considered to be apart of Spirit Detective. I thought the arc before Genkai's tournament was just called that) Anyway, I disagree about everything else though. Dark Tournament is of course my favorite arc ever ever ever ever. I think Genkai's Tournament is CLEARLY the best out of Saint Beasts and Rescue Yukina and I liked the Saint Beasts' arc more than Rescue Yukina (I did admittedly miss some episodes, I think just when they fought that bald guy's team though)

Well after seeing the whole thing I have to say my biggest complaints about the final season are:


- No huge disastrous threat against the Living and/or Spirit Worlds.


- No reasons to dislike any of the demons. I didn't want one-dimensional cliche enemies, but if there's no one to really dislike then whats the sense rooting for our 3 heroes if there's no one to dislike?

Rewatch Dark Tournament. They had some dicks in it like that arm blade guy that threatened Kurama's freaking mom and the shinobi or whatever team leader that who's ass Kuwabara kicked (funny, I actually missed that episode. I have quite a few episodes to see.)

I think they wanted to keep the vibe of the earth being secretly saved and not full on "OH MY GOD!1 OMG!1 DEMONS RUNNING THROUGH THE STREETS" kind of shit.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Rewatch Dark Tournament. They had some dicks in it like that arm blade guy that threatened Kurama's freaking mom and the shinobi or whatever team leader that who's ass Kuwabara kicked (funny, I actually missed that episode. I have quite a few episodes to see.)

I think they wanted to keep the vibe of the earth being secretly saved and not full on "OH MY GOD!1 OMG!1 DEMONS RUNNING THROUGH THE STREETS" kind of shit.

Uh....He's talking about the Three Kings arc, not the Dark Tournament arc.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I think that's why I would have preferred him either being clearer on ranks or just not including them. Toguro is extra strong because of how his body was created and Sensui because of Sacred Energy, but everyone else got their edge from their powers and how they used them. In that way, that's why I don't think the ranks are that important outside of a handful of characters. Because otherwise Yusuke beating Hiei in the SD arc makes no sense if he's declared D rank by the DT. That would make him like an E, which is a ridiculous thought.

Rando, judging from how Yusuke won by dumb luck and nothing more, makes me think he would be around a C. Yusuke couldn't do anything to him at all, and if Hiei was a D and was dropped by one spirit gun blast, then he clearly couldn't be a D with the level of power he put out.

Ugh, I gotta stop talking ranks. They kind of annoy me. Or we can just assume Spirit World only makes them when they know the demon's true potential, which makes a heck of a lot more sense.

[Aurora]

To me I always thought:

Rando- Low Level C Class

First 3 Saint Beasts- D classes

Suzaku: Low level C class

Most of the Dark torunament participants that Team Urameshi fought: Low level C classes to High level C class (possibly even low level B).


Team Toguro- Karasu and Bui were Mid level B's it seems, and possibly also Elder Toguro? Younger was of course High level B.

Sensui- Low Level S class

And pretty much the rest of the last saga was A classes and  mid-level to high level S classes.

Actually, there was a threat. The Three Kingdoms of the Demon World were on the brink of war, and while it wouldn't have been a problem for Spirit World and the Human World if either Raizen's or Mukuro's sides had one, Koenma stated that it would be a big problem if Yomi had one since he planned to merge the Demon and Human realms together, not understanding that humans (most of whom weren't even aware of the existence of demons) were not ready for such a merge to take place. It basically would have allowed wild and monstrous S class demons to roam freely around the human world and wreck havoc and cause widespread chaos and panic. So, yeah, I'd say that's a pretty big threat if you think about it. Yusuke designed the tournament as a more peaceful way to find a resolution and get a unified leader for Demon World, which is my personal problem with the arc since it doesn't seem the least bit believable that anyone would agree to those conditions.

Yeah, thats another problem on the last saga for me. It's probably just me but I never had the notion of "OMG YUSUKE BETTER OWN TIZ OR THE LIVING WORL IS FOOOKED!". I just didn't. It was still aninteresting saga, and the Torunament itself was interesting and well done even if...well you know. Like I said the last battle was actually really good. And I feel this season really doesn't deserve some of the hate it gets.

[Aurora]

Ok my posts are getting fucked up now. :-o Is this a glitch or maybe something is wrong with my computer.  


Nevermind fixed!

[Spark Of Spirit]

To me I always thought:

Rando- Low Level C Class

First 3 Saint Beasts- D classes

Suzaku: Low level C class

Most of the Dark torunament participants that Team Urameshi fought: Low level C classes to High level C class (possibly even low level B).


Team Toguro- Karasu and Bui were Mid level B's it seems, and possibly also Elder Toguro? Younger was of course High level B.

Sensui- Low Level S class

And pretty much the rest of the last saga was A classes and  mid-level to high level S classes.

That seems about right to me. Yusuke was clobbering E and D classers but had major trouble against Gouki, Rando, and Suzaku (and only beat Rando based on dumb luck, he couldn't even scratch his real form) and after his DT training (where he didn't slack off) was probably around mid C and the boost from the spirit wave let him take on Toguro head on.

But the ranks aren't like DBZ's power levels, attacks don't just stop maiming higher levels a certain class (Toguro was able to heal, even though a weakened Genkai almost blew off his arm) so I'd say the power difference is only real noticeable in how their skills are implemented in battle.

I don't really know why I'm trying to understand the ranking system, but outside of Hiei (which I still think Koenma was wrong on) they do make sense if you try to think on them harder than you probably should.

[gunswordfist]

I think that's why I would have preferred him either being clearer on ranks or just not including them. Toguro is extra strong because of how his body was created and Sensui because of Sacred Energy, but everyone else got their edge from their powers and how they used them. In that way, that's why I don't think the ranks are that important outside of a handful of characters. Because otherwise Yusuke beating Hiei in the SD arc makes no sense if he's declared D rank by the DT. That would make him like an E, which is a ridiculous thought.

Rando, judging from how Yusuke won by dumb luck and nothing more, makes me think he would be around a C. Yusuke couldn't do anything to him at all, and if Hiei was a D and was dropped by one spirit gun blast, then he clearly couldn't be a D with the level of power he put out.

Ugh, I gotta stop talking ranks. They kind of annoy me. Or we can just assume Spirit World only makes them when they know the demon's true potential, which makes a heck of a lot more sense.

Yeah, I remember Rando being pretty much invincible.

Hmmm, I have to check on Hiei's progress in the beginning of DT (I missed his first fight, yeah I suck) I assumed he grew stronger over some period of time but once I think about it, I have no freaking clue when that could have been

@ Aurora, I have no clue what any pre-Team Toguro demon's class could have been. I m though pretty much 100% sure that Karsu and Bui were mid B class...but Hiei throws another monkey wrench in that. Koenma said he was mid B and he made Bui look useless at the end of their fight. Hell, beginning too. How Karasu died makes it hard to figure out too. That gave no clue how strong either Kurama or Karasu was. As for Elder Toguro, he might have been one of those kind of demons that are C class but has powers that make him a threat to some B class. Himetting beat by Kuwabara kind of confirms that, I guess. Sensui was definitely low level S class.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I think that's why I would have preferred him either being clearer on ranks or just not including them. Toguro is extra strong because of how his body was created and Sensui because of Sacred Energy, but everyone else got their edge from their powers and how they used them. In that way, that's why I don't think the ranks are that important outside of a handful of characters. Because otherwise Yusuke beating Hiei in the SD arc makes no sense if he's declared D rank by the DT. That would make him like an E, which is a ridiculous thought.

Rando, judging from how Yusuke won by dumb luck and nothing more, makes me think he would be around a C. Yusuke couldn't do anything to him at all, and if Hiei was a D and was dropped by one spirit gun blast, then he clearly couldn't be a D with the level of power he put out.

Ugh, I gotta stop talking ranks. They kind of annoy me. Or we can just assume Spirit World only makes them when they know the demon's true potential, which makes a heck of a lot more sense.

Yeah, I remember Rando being pretty much invincible.

Hmmm, I have to check on Hiei's progress in the beginning of DT (I missed his first fight, yeah I suck) I assumed he grew stronger over some period of time but once I think about it, I have no freaking clue when that could have been

@ Aurora, I have no clue what any pre-Team Toguro demon's class could have been. I m though pretty much 100% sure that Karsu and Bui were mid B class...but Hiei throws another monkey wrench in that. Koenma said he was mid B and he made Bui look useless at the end of their fight. Hell, beginning too. How Karasu died makes it hard to figure out too. That gave no clue how strong either Kurama or Karasu was. As for Elder Toguro, he might have been one of those kind of demons that are C class but has powers that make him a threat to some B class. Himetting beat by Kuwabara kind of confirms that, I guess. Sensui was definitely low level S class.

I think it depends how long the Three Artifacts arc took place after Hiei got the Jigan Eye. I think that would explain a lot in regards to his real ability.