Yu Yu Hakusho

[Spark Of Spirit]

It would depend on how it was handled, but I'm not sure it would have fit Yusuke's arc to die. The whole story was him growing up from a troubled kid into an adult (even though Togashi screwed this up in the manga's last arc and the anime staff corrected it) which would have been cut short by this point.

If anything, Hiei dying would have had a bigger impact since it would really show how far he had come since the series began. Being that he really had nothing to gain in all of Chapter Black by helping Yusuke.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

In general, YYH is one of those series that doesn't really need to have any of its main character die to be effective in story-telling or impact. I like the characters and am perfectly fine with them living through every major event. In general, YYH is great in the execution of its story-telling and the likability of its characters, including its villains. That's one thing most modern shonen can't seem to nail. Other series have bland main characters and villains that are neither sinister enough to be taken seriously or even likable as a redeeming quality since that would at least make them interesting. I know the prospect of "villains" being likable seems contradictory to their purpose, but I think an effective villain can at least be interesting and someone who you don't think of a villain just because they act like a giant douche. I don't necessarily mean they have to be likable as a character, but their motives should seem like they make sense from their own perspective, or they should at least fascinate you in some way even if they aren't meant to be either likable or despicable (Johan from Monster is a perfect example of this).

I really liked Sensui because his motives seemed interesting even if they were clearly misguided, and I also liked how despite his intelligence, craftiness, and skill, he never seemed full of himself like most shonen villains who "think" they are being smart seem to be. There was a very modest and humble atmosphere around him and each of his personalities (except for maybe Kazuya), and in general I liked that he was doing what he was doing because it was the conclusion that he came to that it was the path he wanted to go down and was best fit for. He didn't even try to act smug and really convince Yusuke that he was right in wanting to end humanity. He just decided that humanity wasn't worth defending (which is why he abandoned being a Spirit Detective) and then came up with a plan to take out humanity and let the multiple species of demons fight it out over who would be the next dominant race, since he generally felt that humanity in general had grown too much of an ego and had become far worse in general than any demon he would have been assigned to hunt down in his Spirit Detective days.

That's why I like Sensui. He's just a very "honest" villain, and doesn't pretend to be the good guy at all, if that makes any sense.

[talonmalon333]

I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

It would depend on how it was handled, but I'm not sure it would have fit Yusuke's arc to die. The whole story was him growing up from a troubled kid into an adult (even though Togashi screwed this up in the manga's last arc and the anime staff corrected it) which would have been cut short by this point.

I guess you could argue that Yusuke's final sacrifice is basically said development coming full circle, and that his death would be a great way to end his story arc, being as that's how it started (and to me personally, is one of the reasons it's the most powerful moment of the series).

And to add my personal opinion in, I think that the whole Mazoku thing is where things started to just get cheesy. And Yusuke's fight against Sensui in Demon World wasn't that great, plus Sensui's arc about wanting to be defeated by a demon wasn't totally necessary. Plus, to me it just seemed all wrong seeing Yusuke exploding with demon energy when he was reborn.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I didn't really like the whole "Yusuke is a demon" angle either. I always thought his incredible bursts of power came from the fact that he was a deeply troubled kid that couldn't get his emotions out and his powers were the same. Making him a demon offspring (and then providing a cheesy reason as to why it didn't awaken at series start) seemed like a cop out. But since it went that way, it was handled as well as it could be, considering.

Yusuke's death against Sensui was emotional, but I would have preferred he got help from his friends and all four of them beat him. Even if the fight went to demon world eventually, it would have been a more satisfying end for the whole story.

Also, I though Togashi's favorite characters were the Toguro Bros.?

[gunswordfist]

I remember how shocked I was when I first saw Mazoku Yusuke in an anime magazine ad. I'm honestly a sucker for unexpected things happening in later arcs of shonen. I have a soft spot for long/somewhat long anime done right.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Yeah, I wasn't a fan of Yusuke being a demon offspring either. I honestly would have preferred that he just got revived by someone healing him or some shit like that. It would have been lazy and on the spot writing, but at least it wouldn't have screwed around with his character, IMO.

As for what Desensitized said about his outbursts being from him trying to get his emotions out rather than being related to his demon blood, I think that still very well holds true for everything up until the reveal that he had demon blood. I mean, its not like he was able to unlock any of his demon powers anyways until his final fight with Sensui in Demon World. Up until that point, his outbursts really were only just based on his emotions.

Oh, BTW, off-topic from this particular discussion, I just watched the FUNimation dub of all of the bonus animation material from the Eizou Hakusho OVAs. My favorite line from the dub is when Yusuke is working at the noodle cart vendor and says this to a customer: "Here's you're change. Don't get mugged on the way home." Another funny one was when Keiko says, "What would our old teacher say if they saw you here making an honest living?" To which Yusuke responds, "They'd ask where I stole this food."

Those right there are classic FUNimation-style dub lines for YYH, and it just feels so surreal to hear Justin Cook pulling dialogue like that off in Yusuke's voice after all these years.

[gunswordfist]

It would be cool to see the gang gang up on one villain

[talonmalon333]

This discussion led me to start listing the plotholes in season four. I'm going to be listing them in question form. Now there's a chance that some of these things aren't actually holes, and that I'm merely forgetting something. So if that happens, feel free to correct me.

1. How did Jin, Chu, and the rest of the DT crew get so strong so quickly?

2. Isn't Sensui's level of power supposed to be "rare, even in Demon World"?

3. If Yukina supposedly never returned to the Ice World... where is she seen going twice earlier on in the series?

4. How does Hiei's backstory line up with his mission in the beginning of the series, when he wanted to use the three artifacts to take over the human world?

5. According to Raizen's story arc, demons need to eat humans to survive (in fact, Mukuro herself claims to have tried eating other things, but failed). So how can Enki afford to keep them from eating humans at the end of the series? It will just cause mass starvation. Besides, Yusuke even said something along the lines of "If it's bad, then why were you made this way?".

6. ^And how exactly have demons been eating humans all this time anyway? The tunnel to Demon World has been closed, and the Kekkai Barrier sealed.

7. In the beginning of the arc, Yusuke asks Hokushin how he got through the barrier if the hole to Demon World was closed. Hokushin claims that they slipped through the Kekkai Barrier by wearing devises that lowered their power to a D class level. This still doesn't answer the larger question at hand: How did they get through if the hole to Demon World was closed?

8. In addition, Koenma said only B classes and lower can slip through the Kekkai Barrier. Hokushin completely contradicts this.

9. I've always considered the possibility that this might just be a dubbing error. But the numbers for years used in this arc aren't remotely consistent (one character saying Raizen's been starving for 1,000 years, then Raizen says 700 years, etc.).

Some of these holes are kind of small. But some others are just big issues if you ask me, issues that they try to sweep under the rug, especially things like point #5. But again, please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I'm just gonna take random guesses and opinions at most of these.

1. How did Jin, Chu, and the rest of the DT crew get so strong so quickly?

Good training, I'd guess. Though I'd assume they had been training hard since the Dark Tournament originally ended.

2. Isn't Sensui's level of power supposed to be "rare, even in Demon World"?

It is. This is where the Demon World arc stumbles when Togashi attempted to make "levels" of S class demons which was just silly. As far as I'm concerned the only proper S levels were the three kings and the "off the radar" demons. Their servants were A at best. Especially considering how Kurama was so much stronger than most despite not training much at all between Chapter Black and Three Kings.

3. If Yukina supposedly never returned to the Ice World... where is she seen going twice earlier on in the series?

Sight seeing.

4. How does Hiei's backstory line up with his mission in the beginning of the series, when he wanted to use the three artifacts to take over the human world?

He temporarily lost himself to the Jagan. This also lines up when you consider how reliant he was on it in his first fight to the point where he considered it his trump card. When we all know it wasn't.

5. According to Raizen's story arc, demons need to eat humans to survive (in fact, Mukuro herself claims to have tried eating other things, but failed). So how can Enki afford to keep them from eating humans at the end of the series? It will just cause mass starvation. Besides, Yusuke even said something along the lines of "If it's bad, then why were you made this way?".

Not all demons need to eat humans. Only specific types, which Raizen was one of.

6. ^And how exactly have demons been eating humans all this time anyway? The tunnel to Demon World has been closed, and the Kekkai Barrier sealed.

The same way the servants got to Yusuke at the start of the Three Kings arc. Draining their power and sneaking in.

7. In the beginning of the arc, Yusuke asks Hokushin how he got through the barrier if the hole to Demon World was closed. Hokushin claims that they slipped through the Kekkai Barrier by wearing devises that lowered their power to a D class level. This still doesn't answer the larger question at hand: How did they get through if the hole to Demon World was closed?

The hole to Demon World only blocks A class demons and above.

8. In addition, Koenma said only B classes and lower can slip through the Kekkai Barrier. Hokushin completely contradicts this.

He lowered his power in order to cross. If he removed the device to return to his original power he would have been killed, IIRC.

9. I've always considered the possibility that this might just be a dubbing error. But the numbers for years used in this arc aren't remotely consistent (one character saying Raizen's been starving for 1,000 years, then Raizen says 700 years, etc.).

I just guess that he doesn't remember how long it's been and neither does anyone else.

Some of these holes are kind of small. But some others are just big issues if you ask me, issues that they try to sweep under the rug, especially things like point #5. But again, please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.

Yeah, the last arc is not as fleshed out as it should be.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I don't have the time to answer all of these, but you're both wrong on number 2, if you are going by specifics. It was said that Sensui's "sacred energy" was rare. It never said anything about his general level of power being rare, though of course S class demons shouldn't have been that common in the first place. The Demon World Tournament merely just gathered all or most of the S class demons in existence. There were probably a few dozen out of like....what's the DW population? Somewhere in the millions? Its not like the S class demons are rare rule was really broken, as far as I'm concerned. I do think its kind of weak that more than just a few exist, though, so I'm not denying its bad writing on Togashi's part on that end. It doesn't really contradict anything that I'm aware of, though, so I thought I'd point that out.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I don't have the time to answer all of these, but you're both wrong on number 2, if you are going by specifics. It was said that Sensui's "sacred energy" was rare. It never said anything about his general level of power being rare, though of course S class demons shouldn't have been that common in the first place. The Demon World Tournament merely just gathered all or most of the S class demons in existence. There were probably a few dozen out of like....what's the DW population? Somewhere in the millions? Its not like the S class demons are rare rule was really broken, as far as I'm concerned. I do think its kind of weak that more than just a few exist, though, so I'm not denying its bad writing on Togashi's part on that end. It doesn't really contradict anything that I'm aware of, though, so I thought I'd point that out.

Wasn't Hokushin an S class? That seemed a bit out there to me.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Well, he was Raizen's right-hand man, wasn't he (isn't that why Raizen specifically sent him to get Yusuke)? It'd make sense for one of Raizen's top generals to be that strong.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Well, he was Raizen's right-hand man, wasn't he (isn't that why Raizen specifically sent him to get Yusuke)? It'd make sense for one of Raizen's top generals to be that strong.

It's mostly that he never really came off very strong as far as I can recall. But then again, it's not like he fought a lot either.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Well, he had a lazily drawn appearance that certainly made him fit the bill of generic henchmen more than top-class war general, so yeah, he didn't look as strong as he really was. But, then again, I find that criticism to kind of be a moot point given just how much is wrong with the final arc in general. That is to say, its just a badly written arc that had no effort put into it, so I don't even feel like its worth it to nitpick details like that when the arc has far more glaring issues, IMO.

I still say that Togashi could redeem himself by re-writing an alternate version of that arc in which the demon war being built up really does take place and then makes the alternate version the canon version of the arc. The thing that pisses me off the most about Togashi is that he IS actually a talented enough writer to make that kind of stuff work (there's also a ton of great potential arcs that he could have done with HXH that he'll probably never get to for the same reason). That's why its frustrating that despite his talent, he's to lazy to actually a use it past the first few arcs of any of his long-running series.

[gunswordfist]

4. How does Hiei's backstory line up with his mission in the beginning of the series, when he wanted to use the three artifacts to take over the human world?

The most this can sense is that this was like Hiei's younger years were he used to be ruthless. I heard from some random poster somewhere that Hiei was changed by Togashi to be likable. Honestly, he had a complete 180 after Spirit Detective and into Maze Castle/Four Beasts. Sense wise, this is the biggest head scratcher in the entire show. Hiei goes from being the most one dimensional villain in the show except for that blade arm guy that Kurama fought and hell sweat muscle guy that Kurama also fought and maybe a few other villains from Dark Tournament, to being an honorable swordsman. Remember before the Dark Tournament Hiei refused to train Kuwabara because he refused to beat on someone that much weaker than him? Well Hiei attack )I believe he freaking slashed her with that weird sword) and kidnapping a damn 14 year old girl in Kayko is about as far from that honor you can get.