Yu Yu Hakusho

[talonmalon333]

Uh what? They made it clear that Yoko Kurama wasn't A class until Yusuke died.

I was referring to how Kurama was supposedly an A-class in his former life, which I thought was a slightly contrived revelation that did nothing to benefit his character, and ultimately just kind of dampened the idea that Yusuke and Toguro were the strongest characters that appeared in the Dark Tournament (but now, when Kurama took that potion in his fight against Karasu, it became: Kurama >>>>>>>>>>>> Yusuke and Toguro). It's not a plot hole in any way, but I liked it more when Yusuke and Toguro were stronger than Yoko Kurama.

Just a personal niggle.

[gunswordfist]

I'm pretty sure Yoko was still B class then.

[talonmalon333]

What makes you say that? They specifically state that Yoko Kurama was an A class.

[Spark Of Spirit]

If he was B class it makes more sense because A and S class can't go into the human world.

[talonmalon333]

If he was B class it makes more sense because A and S class can't go into the human world.

That makes sense, but again, doesn't they specifically state that Yoko Kurama was an A class? I know all logic and sense of storytelling should make him weaker than that, but from what I remember, the characters say that he was indeed A class.

Unless it was just a dub error?

[Spark Of Spirit]

It might be an error, I'm not sure. But it would make more sense from every other perspective if he was B.

[talonmalon333]

That does make more sense. Also, I always got the feeling like Yoko Kurama wasn't that much stronger than Karasu.

[talonmalon333]

So this is a question to anyone familiar with the Yu Yu Hakusho sub... Yeah, I don't know why I'm on a YYH high lately. It's not like I've even watched it in years. I guess now that my high on my favorite show ever put on TV has passed over, I've moved onto talking about my 2nd favorite.

Like I said before, 99% of my time watching YYH was spent on the dub. I did, at one point, watch the English version with the Japanese subtitles, but I'm not sure for how many episodes. But anyway... in the last few episodes of the Three Kings season, when Yusuke is fighting Yomi, he creates that "new" type of golden energy. In the English dub, one character refers to it as Sacred Energy, but then another corrects them by saying "This is something new". What do they say in the Japanese version? Do they refer to it just as Sacred Energy?

[talonmalon333]

I do have some things in this series that I'd change.

1. Give Hiei a better character design in his initial appearance, one more consistent with his look in future episodes. (I don't have much of a problem with his personality in these initial episodes. I think it makes sense that he would greatly mellow out after losing to Yusuke due to arrogance.)
2. Remove the point about Kurama and Hiei having previously been A-class demons. To me, it just seemed unnecessary (and maybe it was a dub error, but I remember Kurama saying that Toguro at 80% displayed more power than anything he had ever sensed before). Especially Hiei. That seemed more like them saying he was once A-class... just for the sake of him being an A-class. I also don't like to think that Yoko Kurama, in the Dark Tournament finals, was an A-class. It's just better for the story if, at that point in the series, Yusuke and Toguro are the strongest characters ever seen.
3. Lower the power levels of most of the characters in the Three Kings arc. I didn't like how everyone and their dog was an S-class, and how the A-class demons were revealed to be essentially fodder despite being played up as rivaling "the titans of Greek myth". That was a letdown.

My second and third points are bigger (that first point doesn't mean anything really). I especially don't like how the Dark Tournament characters (Chu, Rinku, Jin, Touya, Shishiwakumaru, and Suzuka) are suddenly A or S classes. Not only does that make them stronger than Toguro, but more importantly, it just makes me wonder... was Genkai holding back on Yusuke?

I think most of the demons in the tournament should've been B-class, including the Dark Tournament characters. And then some would be A and S classes.

Okay so, despite the fact that those last two complaints were, as I called them, my "bigger complaints", I'm going to take them back right now. The first one, the Hiei one, still stands... Though that's really completely insignificant and I could honestly care less. It's just a character design. But anyway, I'm going to explain why I take back those other two.

2. I'm not really for Hiei and Kurama having once been A class demons, but I'm not exactly against it anymore. It doesn't matter much, and them being overwhelmed by Toguro's power in the Dark Tournament finals can be explained that, well, his power is incredible. As they are now, they are nothing to him. Plus, it does add a certain level of mystic to them that they were once these powerful beings, even if that mystic is a bit shallow. It also explains how Yusuke's death managed to push them from B to A classes, whereas Kuwabara's fake death merely pushed Yusuke from B to B+ (as they have the potential of A class demons, and Kuwabara has the potential to wield the Dimensional powers, of course). I still don't entirely love the idea of Yoko Kurama being A class in the Dark Tournament, as that makes him more powerful than Yusuke and Toguro (it not only hurts the story flow, but it also doesn't make sense because he had his hands full with someone as weak as Karasu). But at the same time... no where did they indicate that the potion reverted Kurama back to when he was in his absolute prime. Maybe the potion Yoko back to his pre-A days? He does seem more cocky and less calm and calculated than he does in flashbacks shown in the Three Kings season. There's also the issue of Yoko Kurama escaping Demon World to reach the human and Spirit Worlds, despite the fact that A class demons can't get through the Kekkai Barrier. But, as we learn in Demon World, there are loopholes. Not to mention, Kurama always has a plan. If Hokushin can get past the barrier, so can Kurama.

2. I never liked how the A class demons were thrown in the backseat and how S class is basically the only thing that mattered in the end. But then I stopped to think and decided what characters should be cut from the S class. And honestly... I couldn't name anyone. They all make sense. Heck, even Jin, Chu, and the rest of that Dark Tournament crew was fine in the S class (though I still hate how they pulled it off, it just undermines earlier parts of the story knowing that Genkai was holding back on Yusuke). Really, when I stopped to think about it, I realized that, as with many things about the fourth season, my issue here just goes right back to the main flaw: the Demon World Tournament. When you're going to make a tournament that's based around individuals, of course the A class demons won't matter. However, if the Three Kings season ended with the war that they were building up to, then it would have worked, making the A class demons as essentially the front men with the S class demons as the top soldiers.

So really, scrap all three of those complaints. At this point, the only thing I feel like I might tweak is adding a bit more consistency. For example, it doesn't make sense when they call King Yama's vault "the most guarded vault of Spirit World" when it was forcebly overpowered by three low class demons (if they had said Kurama formed some plan to sneak past security, that'd make sense, but it's shown that they used brute force to get through), and how Spirit World's previous men who went into Maze Castle were killed (we all know now that Spirit World's men are way above the level of anything the Saint Beasts can throw)... Also, having a war instead of a Demon World Tournament fits under the "consistency" banner, as it is consistent with the tone of the first half of season four, being what it was all building up to. But those things, with the exception of the Demon World Tournament, are nitpicks.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I don't have a problem with S class demons being able to trump A class demons with ease. That's WHY they are S class in the first place, because nobody can compare to the power that they wield. What I hated was how Togashi made it so damn easy for almost everyone to achieve S class, which really made it seem like nothing special. You could tell that he really didn't care anymore by that point in time. Personally, I think it would've been better as something that only a select few could attain, like having the Three Kings be the only living beings to be ranked that high, and maybe Yusuke as well, only when he used his Mazoku transformation.

[talonmalon333]

I don't have a problem with S class demons being able to trump A class demons with ease. That's WHY they are S class in the first place, because nobody can compare to the power that they wield. What I hated was how Togashi made it so damn easy for almost everyone to achieve S class, which really made it seem like nothing special. You could tell that he really didn't care anymore by that point in time. Personally, I think it would've been better as something that only a select few could attain, like having the Three Kings be the only living beings to be ranked that high, and maybe Yusuke as well, only when he used his Mazoku transformation.

I'd also add Sensui in there. I really do think it's was effective and gave off a feeling of hopelessness when we saw that Sensui is equal to an S class demon, and was able to overpower Koenma's pacifier spell, as well as Kuwabara, Kurama, and Hiei once they hit A class in a vain attempt to avenge the death of Yusuke. When he reached the S class, it still felt like a new concept that hadn't been overused yet. Plus, I still hold the opinion that Sensui is the only character that lived up to the feeling of overwhelming power and danger that we get from those glimpses of Yusuke imagining what S class demons could do to the human world (when he imagines those massive demons appearing on earth and essentially destroying everything in episode 71, that scene is still intimidating to me).

[talonmalon333]

I wanted to elaborate on this last night, but it was kind of late and I didn't feel like typing it then.

When you say "I don't have a problem with S class demons being able to trump A class demons", I didn't mean that was the part that bothered me. I was getting at the same thing as you, in that there were too many S class demons. And they do kind of make it look easy to get to that level. Again, I don't like Genkai raising that group from being average human world demons to S class, despite the fact that she couldn't even get Yusuke to being half of Toguro's level before he absorbed her Spirit Wave Orb.

However, the reason I no longer mind the amount of S class characters at this point is that, well, just about all of them make sense. If you just go through them...

Sensui: I explained in my last post why he deserves to fit into the S class. In fact, I think he deserves to be there more than anyone else in the series, practically.

Yusuke: Well, when Yusuke was reborn as a demon, he was said to be roughly equals with Sensui. It's true that Sensui still had a clear advantage and was pummeling him until Raizen took over, but I'd still say Yusuke fits into the S class.

The Three Kings: They're the rules of Demon World. Of course they fit there, even though Raizen is the only one who seems incredibly powerful (with Yomi and especially Mukuro, they seem less impressive than Sensui but everything says "they are so powerful", so I guess that makes them more powerful even though it goes against the "show, don't tell" rule).

Hokushin, Kirin, and Shachi: These guys are the right hand men of the kings (well, at least for a portion of the series), and were supposedly more powerful than Yusuke at the beginning of season four. So I can accept them being low/mid S classes. I don't mind characters this important being S class.

Shigure (and the rest of Mukuro's elite soldiers): I suppose you could say these guys could've been made as strong A class demons and. However, they did state that Hiei was able to slaughter 500+ A class demons with ease, so it makes sense... Of course, if you want to argue that it's dumb that they made it so easy for Hiei to kill that many A class demons with ease, I can understand that complaint completely.

Hiei: He is one of the main characters, so I can accept him reaching S class. I do think it was a bit lame that a year of training apparently made him Yusuke's equal, despite the fact that Yusuke trained for a year as well and was already 10x's stronger than Hiei. But whatever...

Kurama: Again, he's a main character. And he did kill Shachi with ease. Though he did pull that off by surprising Shachi (Shachi had no reason to suspect that Kurama would suddenly turn into a fox with power rivaling his own), so maybe you could say Kurama didn't have to reach S class. I wouldn't make that argument, though.

Jin, Chu, Rinku, Touya, Shishi, and Suzuka: These guys didn't have to be S class. It really didn't drive the story at all, and the only thing it accomplished was, again, making it look as if Genkai held back on Yusuke severely (I know i keep going on about that, but it's my biggest problem with the whole series). I would've accepted it, however, if they stated that the group had been training rigorously since the Dark Tournament, and then, with a combination of training from both Genkai and Kurama, they reach A class by the skin of their teeth. And then, sticking around in Demon World for another stretch of time, they manage to train and reach high A class or even low S class. If they went that direction, I would've accepted the extreme boost they ended up getting. But as it is now, I don't like what they did.

Enki's Group: These guys were Raizen's sparing buddies and were possibly, at their prime, even stronger than Yomi and Mukuro... Then again, I suppose you could say they were tailor made for the Demon World Tournament. Had Togashi went with a war in the final arc, I always imagined these guys siding with Yusuke, but I suppose you could say they wouldn't even need to exist if the story took that direction.

[gunswordfist]

If I had to guess, The 3 Kings and Yusuke were Super s class and everyone else was S class.

Also, Karasu only gave Yoko Kurama trouble because he hit him hard at the beginning and end of his transformation. I also think Yoko was only mid B class at that point. If he was A, yeah, that would be a real complaint. Yusuke also said that he thought Toguro was clearly the strongest demon there was so Yoko actually being stronger would be a plothole.

[talonmalon333]

... the heck is a super S class?

And yeah, Yoko being A class in the Dark Tournament would be a plot hole. People would've sensed it, and Karasu wouldn't be as confident as he was. They were written as equals during the tournament, and Togashi didn't come up with that "Yoko was an A class" story idea until much later.

My guess is the potion reverted Yoko Kurama back to his pre-A class days. Nothing like that is ever stated, but it's the only idea that makes any type of sense, so I've always just gone with it.

Also, another thing I don't mind about the S class in Demon World is that it is revealed that they are the most civilized. While I still prefer the idea of leaving the Demon World shrouded in mystery, being that they did end up making a fourth season I think it's best that they went the direction of showing that humans and demons aren't all that different, and that the cases of demons truly causing harm to the human race is 1/1,000,000.

[gunswordfist]

Koenma mentioned Super S Class when he first started talking about all of the classes.

And yeah, I liked how they made it seem like a lot of demons had some type of honor. It kind of went with how in Chapter Black, Sensui thought demons were better than humans.