Things That Bother You About Gaming

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Since Foggle and I were talking about Norse God a lot earlier and how it (and many other big AAA franchise games) have had such boring and limiting design choices lately, I thought it would be a good opportunity to bring up one of my favorite YouTube videos on the subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IERHMMXeshc

What I love about this video is that while being a clear critique of Nu God of War, it comes from a clearly open-minded and less biased perspective. As much as I love TGBS, he does sometimes limit his thinking in how he critiques something. In the case of GoW, I absolutely agree with his critiques of the design choices, but ultimately he makes it feel like he thinks it would be better if it plays like more traditional character action games. Matthew on the other hand acknowledges that while he prefers those other games, he could see the merit in Santa Monica Studio's different take on the genre if they took better concessions to adapt the gameplay to work in a way that supported their vision without compromising on the player's ability at any given time.

More than that, though, this video will teach you a lot about the design tendencies of numerous games, especially action games, in general, which will really help grow your appreciation for the genre. I highly recommend giving it a watch despite it's length.

[Mustang]

Been so busy with work lately. 10 hrs Mon-Thur. causing me not to want to post anything.

Anyway, how do we feel about devs copying other devs? I ask only because I just saw a trailer to this game called Genshin Impact and it's not due to come out until some time next year for the PS4. Apparently it's a clone of Breath of the Wild, and you can clearly see it as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1WmmsEXtyE

Of course Zelda fans are losing it, but honestly, I don't have a problem with it. The only time I'd have a problem with cloning is if a certain style is taking over (Souls combat) and my type is phasing out. Other than that, I'd kill if Devil May Cry went with a similar feel to Breath of the Wild (the scale and how everything feels huge).

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

A few years ago I may have agreed with that sentiment, but honestly I'd rather not have a huge open-world DMC or Ninja Gaiden game these days. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for big open-world ARPGs aspiring to have better than the Souls-esque or other simplistic combat that you find in popular titles in the genre (not that it makes those lesser games by any means). To me, though, Nioh is already a perfectly good example of how to do that. It's an original IP that is designed to have a more restrictive mobility typical of ARPGs, but with far more in-depth combat mechanics than is typical for the genre. Nier: Automata is another good example, granted it could use some fine-tuning in balancing it's mechanics and difficulty level, but that also works in this scenario.

With a game like DMC, though, I can finally understand why Itsuno wanted it to remain a more tightly-focused, linear action title.  Pacing is far more important in those games than I gave it credit for, and DMC4 is proof of that. Every time that game deviates from it's core strength, which is combat, it suffers for it. And it's not just the bad gimmick levels (though, yes, those suck), but also the fact that it's combat is just so fine-tuned and faster paced than that of an ARPG that it's designed in such a way that makes me want to fight more consistently. In a Souls game or even in something like Nioh or Nier, I do want to occasionally explore for loot or rare upgrade material because building your character up and customizing them is a big part of the appeal of those games. In a traditional hack n' slash, which is more akin to fighting game philosophy, building up my own personal skill level is the appeal of the experience. To me, more RPG elements would just distract from that focus.

[Rynnec]

I'm completely cool with cloning in the gaming industry. A lot of my favorite doujin/indie games are blatant clones of popular franchises and are obviously done so as a love letter to their inspirations, but even in "professional" game development I feel it's more than okay to copy another games style of gameplay, especially with how hellish dev cycles can be, taking after a well regarded title would likely alleviate a lot of that stress. Licensed tie-in games especially benefit from cloning as cases like the Wolverine and Ghost Rider character action games have shown, for instance. Both are clearly modeled after classic God of War with a few Devil May Cry elements thrown in, but they get what makes those games work so well and manage to be fun games in their own right in spite of their comparatively shorter development time.

In Genshin Impact's case I'm actually looking forward to it more than I ever did for Breath of the Wild. The fact that it has Bayonetta-style combat alone makes me more invested in it, add to the fact that you can choose the gender of your player character and it's already won me over. It's worth noting that the developer's previous game, Honkai Impact 3, was a blatant Bayonetta clone, yet I've never heard of any Bayo fan complain about that fact whenever alerted to the games existence, despite being a much younger franchise that sells significantly less.

[Foggle]

Cloning is fine as long as you're putting effort in and not blatantly ripping off someone else's work. All creators are inspired by other creators and refining a preexisting formula or making an homage to your favorites is just as valid as making something completely new and innovative.

I would like to see Devil May Cry return to the level design style of the first game but that's mostly because of my love for Resident Evil.

Also yo wtf Genshin Impact has character action combat? Now I'm interested! I played Honkai Impact and it's about as good as that kind of game can possibly be on a phone.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I'd argue that DMC3 basically did have the same interconnected area design of DMC1, in addition to vastly improved combat, which is why it's still the best one, IMO.

That said, I have to admit that as much as I like that, it almost stops mattering to me on subsequent playthroughs, as I see them less as levels and more as a sequence of arenas to fight in.

[Mustang]

In Genshin Impact's case I'm actually looking forward to it more than I ever did for Breath of the Wild. The fact that it has Bayonetta-style combat alone makes me more invested in it, add to the fact that you can choose the gender of your player character and it's already won me over.

I never would've thought anyone would dare try to tackle the size and scope of Breath of the Wild so for me to see this at this point where I'm at with games (I've been in quite a drought) is a treat since I've always wanted a Zelda-like game on the Playstation (dating as far back as Ocarina of Time)

A few years ago I may have agreed with that sentiment, but honestly I'd rather not have a huge open-world DMC or Ninja Gaiden game these days. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for big open-world ARPGs aspiring to have better than the Souls-esque or other simplistic combat that you find in popular titles in the genre (not that it makes those lesser games by any means). To me, though, Nioh is already a perfectly good example of how to do that. It's an original IP that is designed to have a more restrictive mobility typical of ARPGs, but with far more in-depth combat mechanics than is typical for the genre. Nier: Automata is another good example, granted it could use some fine-tuning in balancing it's mechanics and difficulty level, but that also works in this scenario.

With a game like DMC, though, I can finally understand why Itsuno wanted it to remain a more tightly-focused, linear action title.  Pacing is far more important in those games than I gave it credit for, and DMC4 is proof of that. Every time that game deviates from it's core strength, which is combat, it suffers for it. And it's not just the bad gimmick levels (though, yes, those suck), but also the fact that it's combat is just so fine-tuned and faster paced than that of an ARPG that it's designed in such a way that makes me want to fight more consistently. In a Souls game or even in something like Nioh or Nier, I do want to occasionally explore for loot or rare upgrade material because building your character up and customizing them is a big part of the appeal of those games. In a traditional hack n' slash, which is more akin to fighting game philosophy, building up my own personal skill level is the appeal of the experience. To me, more RPG elements would just distract from that focus.

That's fine, but here's my problem (not to mention another problem I have with DMC5). There's not much of a difference or jump from DMC3 to DMC5. I know, I know, I was just bitching almost a year back (probably even more recent I think) how I wish we can go back to more games like DMC, but the thing is I need more things to do. To bring Zelda back into this, if Breath of the Wild were to follow the same Ocarina of Time formula I would've checked out because after Majora's Mask I was done with that style (I tried to get through Twilight Princess but I quit midway because I was bored of that style). Now I'm not saying take away DMC's core mechanic, but I am saying add to it. Personally, I think it's time these type of games start going open world (I'm gonna revisit Nier: Automata). Despite it's story being lackluster due to the fallout, Metal Gear Solid 5's core mechanic is still relatively the same, but I get a lot more to do to enjoy my game. More bang for the buck more or less. To bring Batman Arkham Knight into this (I know you don't care for the style of game), while I won't say it's better than a DMC game I am saying I get more enjoyment (despite that damn Batmobile) although the reward for completing some of the things are shitty (I'll give you that). That's just where I'm at right now with these games (especially if I'm buying them day 1 for $60+).

I was gonna go into other topics, but I'm too tired.

[Foggle]

For me, having lots of things to do and a huge map is usually more of a curse than a blessing. Like, Rage 2 has the same incredible moment-to-moment gameplay as Doom 4, but it feels like such a slog to play by comparison. I hate filling out a checklist of things on a map, driving around to the next waypoint and doing it again. I want complex levels with handcrafted exploration, not a barren landscape littered with activities. I absolutely loved Spider-Man but that was a huge exception, and it did sort of wear thin for me near the end (which is why I still haven't touched the DLC). I must reiterate that Nier Automata is only open world insofar as the old Final Fantasy games are open world; it's just a 3D take on the classic JRPG world map, really.

What I'd like to see from games moving forward is mid-sized environments somewhere between old-school stage design and modern open worlds; complex maps that are big enough to spark imagination but small enough to get properly acquainted with. The best example of this design philosophy would be the newest Hitman games, but it can also be found in Deus Ex, Dishonored, Mario Odyssey, Banjo-Kazooie, and others.

[Mustang]

For me, having lots of things to do and a huge map is usually more of a curse than a blessing. Like, Rage 2 has the same incredible moment-to-moment gameplay as Doom 4, but it feels like such a slog to play by comparison. I hate filling out a checklist of things on a map, driving around to the next waypoint and doing it again. I want complex levels with handcrafted exploration, not a barren landscape littered with activities. I absolutely loved Spider-Man but that was a huge exception, and it did sort of wear thin for me near the end (which is why I still haven't touched the DLC). I must reiterate that Nier Automata is only open world insofar as the old Final Fantasy games are open world; it's just a 3D take on the classic JRPG world map, really.

Ohh, didn't think about that one. Spider-man, that one was rough. Loved zipping around the city, but hated chasing birds. That type of BS, nah, I don't need. It also depends on the kind of objectives, if we're sticking with DMC for the moment, I'd keep it strictly combat. I wouldn't even know how to implement it because the idea would be to follow MGS5 lead (sticking with the core game play mechanic), but from there in a DMC game I wouldn't know where to go from there because I wouldn't want to go the route of Nioh or Souls. In my eyes, MGS5 was damn near perfect on how to transition to open world. I don't know what can be added to a DMC game to even get on the same field as MGS5.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

That's fine, but here's my problem (not to mention another problem I have with DMC5). There's not much of a difference or jump from DMC3 to DMC5.

If you're talking about gameplay focus on being combat-oriented above all else, than sure. If you're talking actual mechanics, than this is objectively untrue.

I know, I know, I was just bitching almost a year back (probably even more recent I think) how I wish we can go back to more games like DMC, but the thing is I need more things to do. To bring Zelda back into this, if Breath of the Wild were to follow the same Ocarina of Time formula I would've checked out because after Majora's Mask I was done with that style (I tried to get through Twilight Princess but I quit midway because I was bored of that style). Now I'm not saying take away DMC's core mechanic, but I am saying add to it. Personally, I think it's time these type of games start going open world (I'm gonna revisit Nier: Automata).

See, while I understand and respect your opinion, this is the exact thing that I've begun to loathe about a lot of modern games. Maybe that's just me, but this "here's more open world and side-quests for the sake of more open world and side-quests" game design is a recipe for boredom. I'd much rather play a game that excels at what it does than adequately do a number of different things that are tedious grinding and busy work disguised as fun. Maybe I'm being overly cynical because this is exactly what I've gotten out of games like the new God of War and the Arkham or Assassin's Creed series, but while BoTW and Nier are examples of ones that do it well,  they are the exception to the rule from my experience.

The whole appeal of a game like DMC is to focus less on pointless padding and more on shorter but more infinitely replayable segments. Any given level has literally countless different ways in which they can be approached in terms of how you choose to fight. It only feels repetitive and tedious if the player let's it be that way. This is a very old-school concept of you get back what you put into the game. If a player simply wants to "get through" the game and defeat enemies as basically as possible, then sure, they can do that and the experience won't amount to much. If they want to get crazy experimental, then the game will really show how flexible it is in a way that makes other games feel tame by comparison. Case in point is I've beaten the games four times and still haven't gotten tired of it, and each experience has been completely different from the last. I never used Punchline or Ragtime that much for Nero on my initial playthrough, then all of a sudden I'm performing insane combos and maneuvers that I didn't even know were possible by playing around with those Devil Breakers on the harder difficulties. Like, you can do a fucking Shoryuken with Punchline, and I didn't even know about it, and it's absolutely amazing on bosses. Quite frankly it's kind of hard for me to go back to the melee combat in other games ATM, even in Nioh, which is kind of ludicrous when I type it out like that, but it's true (for me).

You're reasoning for not being into that is perfectly valid, but I don't really believe that tossing those mechanics which are specifically designed for a fast-paced experience into a big open world will really lead to the kind of game that you want. A game like BotW works because it diversifies it's focus in many areas that still play into each other, but the game's mechanics are simplified in comparison to compensate for that more varied focus. It's easy to take for granted, but would become more noticable if you all of a sudden had a shit-ton of complexity dropped on you in one single aspect of the game that's not even it's main focus.

[Rynnec]

I understand wanting to add more things to spice up the gameplay, but I don't think open world is the way to go, at least as far as character action games are concerned. I think fine-tuning the platforming or adding in competent mini-game segments like DmC and Bayonetta respectively did is more the way to go.  Doom Eternal is looking to be a good example of mix-and-matching gameplay elements while keeping combat as the core focus, that's the kind of variety I feel action games should go for, imo.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

You know what mini-game type DMC desperately needs? One that basically tricks you into training your Royal Guard skills under the guise of a fun diversion. Seriously, this is the first DMC game in which I've really started to explore that mechanic and it's so fucking amazing it's bonkers.

Like, I legit perfect parried something like 15 of Vergil's summoned swords in a row and it made me feel like I was fucking Daigo (obviously this isn't even ten leagues close to the same skill-level, but still, man). Also, perfectly timing a fully charged Royal Release is the video game equivalent of ecstasy. There is no better analogy. MORE PEOPLE NEED TO EXPERIENCE THIS GODLY FEELING!

[Mustang]

See, while I understand and respect your opinion, this is the exact thing that I've begun to loathe about a lot of modern games. Maybe that's just me, but this "here's more open world and side-quests for the sake of more open world and side-quests" game design is a recipe for boredom. I'd much rather play a game that excels at what it does than adequately do a number of different things that are tedious grinding and busy work disguised as fun. Maybe I'm being overly cynical because this is exactly what I've gotten out of games like the new God of War and the Arkham or Assassin's Creed series, but while BoTW and Nier are examples of ones that do it well,  they are the exception to the rule from my experience.

You're reasoning for not being into that is perfectly valid, but I don't really believe that tossing those mechanics which are specifically designed for a fast-paced experience into a big open world will really lead to the kind of game that you want. A game like BotW works because it diversifies it's focus in many areas that still play into each other, but the game's mechanics are simplified in comparison to compensate for that more varied focus. It's easy to take for granted, but would become more noticable if you all of a sudden had a shit-ton of complexity dropped on you in one single aspect of the game that's not even it's main focus.

Now that I have a much more level / clearer head (damn job) I can tackle this better. I'm not disagreeing with you at all on most points, but for MY sake, I'm bored with just about all games (of course excluding fighting games). Speaking of, for the past month, perhaps 2 months  I've been contemplating on getting rid of all my games because I've been so bored with games lately. (I'm basically saying I'm bored with gaming) So when I'm saying something along the lines of wanting DMC to go open world or more Zelda-ish, it's too get me outta my slump. The only reason I haven't given up completely is because I'm trying to hold out for games like Ghost of Tsushima, Nioh 2, and FF7R. I brought up Genshin Impact because it might be that Zelda-ish game I've been wanting all along.

Take it how you will, but the things I used to like, say continuously playing against a CPU to get better against the CPU is something I grew out of (recently found that out playing DMC4, go figure). That's just where I'm at with videogames now. Yep, sucks, but this slump runs deep.

I'll even give you a tidbit of info on where I'm at with fighting games as a whole. If it weren't for the announcement of the new Guilty Gear I would've been done with fighting games after EVO.

[Foggle]

That's sad to hear, Mustang. I hope you will find your way out of your slump soon! I've gone through several similar ones before and usually emerge with an appreciation for different genres and styles of games afterwards.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Sorry to hear about your slump. I can understand all too well what it's like to slowly lose a passion for something that you once loved over time. Hopefully you manage to find the game that you're looking for, or find a suitable replacement hobby that brings you some semblance of joy in your daily life. Everyone needs something like that.

I myself haven't been as into gaming quite as much as I used to. Titles like Wolfenstein and Sekiro (and obviously DMC5) have managed to hold my interest, but that's pretty much all that I've really spent any time on this entire year.

However, with my overall decreased interest in gaming aside from a few stand-out titles that I come across every now and then, I have managed to replace it with a relatively newfound passion for comic books/manga and novels. I've especially read a fuck-ton of Marvel and DC stuff over the past 2-3 years and discovered gems like James Robinson's Starman run, Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol, Warren Ellis's Moon Knight (as well as Nextwave) and so on, while also discovering engaging newer manga titles like To Your Eternity and Witch Hat Atelier. Not to mention that I've finally started delving into Berserk which is a classic that I've put off for years. I've also enjoyed some pretty captivating Fantasy novel series like The Kingkiller Chronicle and The First Law series.

Obviously everyone is different, but in my experience the best solution to overcoming a slump in an artform that is just getting stale for you is to take a break from it and explore other mediums of entertainment. Still, I really do hope you can find something that really is for you.