The Legend of Zelda Series

[Nel_Annette]

I would love a Hyrule with areas to explore that evoked the same feelings I got from exploring Xenoblade Chronicles. Mm mm yes.

[talonmalon333]

I would love a Hyrule that evokes the feelings of ALBW, but grander in size, more atmosphere, and without carrying over so much from a previous game.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Well, I'm a little confused as to what we're talking about by exploration. If it's Metroid-style where you unlock new areas and progress through large environments, then I always thought of that as a staple of the Zelda franchise. Granted that, I've seen people complain about your options for exploration becoming decidedly more linear since TP, but from the sounds of it, ALBW seems to have fixed that linearity issue.

Now, if we're talking about GTA or some RPG styles of sand-box exploration with everything accessible at any given time, then no, I personally don't find that interesting and don't desire to see the series go in that route. There's nothing more boring than aimless wandering around big areas without clear objectives in mind. I like a sense of freedom, but I still need to feel like I'm doing something for the sake of actual progression.

Personally, I think that the elements for exploration have almost always been handled well in the 2D games, and as far as the 3D games go, OoT, MM, and TWW all did fine jobs of offering up tons of large areas outside of dungeons to explore, with plenty of useful items to discover and interesting and fun side-quests to complete. I haven't played TP or SS yet, but from what I've gathered from people here, both games were a bit more derivative when it came to exploring, so if the notion was more of a return to form for the Zelda franchise (at least as far as the 3D games go), then I could understand that.

[talonmalon333]

Well, I'm a little confused as to what we're talking about by exploration. If it's Metroid-style where you unlock new areas and progress through large environments, then I always thought of that as a staple of the Zelda franchise. Granted that, I've seen people complain about your options for exploration becoming decidedly more linear since TP, but from the sounds of it, ALBW seems to have fixed that linearity issue.

Now, if we're talking about GTA or some RPG styles of sand-box exploration with everything accessible at any given time, then no, I personally don't find that interesting and don't desire to see the series go in that route. There's nothing more boring than aimless wandering around big areas without clear objectives in mind. I like a sense of freedom, but I still need to feel like I'm doing something for the sake of actual progression.

Personally, I think that the elements for exploration have almost always been handled well in the 2D games, and as far as the 3D games go, OoT, MM, and TWW all did fine jobs of offering up tons of large areas outside of dungeons to explore, with plenty of useful items to discover and interesting and fun side-quests to complete. I haven't played TP or SS yet, but from what I've gathered from people here, both games were a bit more derivative when it came to exploring, so if the notion was more of a return to form for the Zelda franchise (at least as far as the 3D games go), then I could understand that.

I'm a fan of some sandbox games so I can't agree with it being boring. However, I do agree that I don't necessary need to see that style of gameplay in Zelda. The more Metroid-esque approach that they've been doing is a fine template.

As for TP, it was actually very good with exploration. I'd say it was better than OoT and MM in that regard. The world was huge and there were a lot of secrets to find. The only problem is that it might've been a little empty, like, the amount of content didn't quite match up to the size of the world. The 2D games were a bit more successful, in my opinion, in terms of having a content-packed world.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I'm a fan of some sandbox games so I can't agree with it being boring.

Large open environments are nice if there's actually plenty of worthwhile things to do in them. Most sand-box type games that I've played nail down the big and open portion of things, but end up falling flat on the actual tasks that you do. It feels like more time went into designing the massive environments than in refining the gameplay, hence why I couldn't get into GTA after I grew out of that phase, or RDD, AC, and so on. If the gameplay itself feels stale, then no matter how big or impressive the environments are, the game will just feel substance-less to me. In other cases, the games may have big worlds and nice mechanics, but don't end up giving you enough to do to justify those big environments. Exploration itself is great, but I still need to feel like I'm trying to accomplish something in the game rather than just exploring for the sake of exploring. Exploring is only fun when there are worthwhile things to discover.

As for TP, it was actually very good with exploration. I'd say it was better than OoT and MM in that regard. The world was huge and there were a lot of secrets to find. The only problem is that it might've been a little empty, like, the amount of content didn't quite match up to the size of the world. The 2D games were a bit more successful, in my opinion, in terms of having a content-packed world.

Well, I can't really speak for games that I haven't played, but that pretty much goes along with my point that Zelda games have always had plenty of exploration. Putting SS aside, I suppose I just didn't understand your comment of how it'd be nice to have a Zelda game with more exploration in it when that itself was already commonplace for the franchise, minus a few exceptions like SS.

[talonmalon333]

Large open environments are nice if there's actually plenty of worthwhile things to do in them. Most sand-box type games that I've played nail down the big and open portion of things, but end up falling flat on the actual tasks that you do. It feels like more time went into designing the massive environments than in refining the gameplay, hence why I couldn't get into GTA after I grew out of that phase, or RDD, AC, and so on. Exploration itself is great, but I still need to feel like I'm trying to accomplish something in the game rather than just exploring for the sake of exploring. Exploring is only fun when there are worthwhile things to discover.

I can agree with you on GTA, and I still need to get to AC. I mostly get my sandbox fix from Bethesda. I like to immerse myself onto a world like what those games, such as Fallout, present. I'm not always making progress in the main story, but I just enjoy doing my thing in the game world, and I genuinely like the content.

Well, I can't really speak for games that I haven't played, but that pretty much goes along with my point that Zelda games have always had plenty of exploration. Putting SS aside, I suppose I just didn't understand your comment of how it'd be nice to have a Zelda game with more exploration in it when that itself was already commonplace for the franchise, minus a few exceptions like SS.

I'd just like to see a bit more of that, like, to see Zelda take it to the next level. Games such as TP have a lot of massive fields, but they didn't always have a whole lot to do, which is something I feel like I didn't face in the 2D games. Maybe we could have less empty space of green fields and instead have more forests, caves, and settlements like Lon Lon Ranch. The exploring in ALBW was phenomenal, well above TP, and I'd like to see that converted into 3D.

Looking at the map in ALttP, I feel like there is no wasted space. Alongside WW and ALBW, I think it still has my favorite Zelda world.



I think Zelda Wii U is aiming at giving the best world yet.

[Spark Of Spirit]

According to people involved with the game, Zelda Wii U is not going to be a "typical sandbox" open world, whatever that means.

Good for me, I find sandbox games dull unless there's a lot of good level design and missions that don't boil down to collecting things, killing a person or gang of people, or racing somewhere for 30 hours.

ALBW did the nonlinear thing well, but I think they could do it even better this time. I hope they do, anyway.

[talonmalon333]

According to people involved with the game, Zelda Wii U is not going to be a "typical sandbox" open world, whatever that means.

Good for me, I find sandbox games dull unless there's a lot of good level design and missions that don't boil down to collecting things, killing a person or gang of people, or racing somewhere for 30 hours.

ALBW did the nonlinear thing well, but I think they could do it even better this time. I hope they do, anyway.

That's what I like to hear. Like I said before, I don't want Zelda Wii U to be a sandbox game. They just need to recall what was so awesome about ALBW and then go better than that, only this time, in 3D.

By the way, Spark, I remember having a few questions about ALBW's story...

Spoiler

First, let me quote an early post showing the discussion.

Exactly how did Ganon die? I mean, it was by the Master Sword. However, in each game, we've seen that the Master Sword alone doesn't have the strength to kill him when he's in possession of the Triforce. It was established early on back in ALttP and has remained true since then. In fact, I'll go over his deaths in each game.

LoZ: Killed by the Silver Arrows, which were established from the beginning to have the power to kill Ganon.

ALttP: Killed by the Silver Arrows, though this time it took multiple arrows to kill him instead of one, which could maybe be attributed to the fact that Ganon is powered by the complete Triforce in this game, whereas he only had the Triforce of Power in LoZ.

OoT: Not killed in this game. Merely sealed away.

OoS/OoA: Killed by regular weapons, but in this game, it was revealed that this was just a shell of Ganon and that the ritual to revive him failed, so him being killed by regular weapons isn't much of a big deal.

WW: Stabbed in the head by the Master Sword alone, but it was after losing the Triforce of Power. So, at that point, he was completely mortal, thus making it impossible for him to survive that sword blow.

TP: Stabbed by the Master Sword in the wound that was inflicted by the Sages long ago. The sword alone probably wasn't enough to kill him, but the Sages created a massive weak spot on him that probably made him able to be killed easier.

In ALBW, Link destroys him with the Master Sword, and that's about it. Not to mention, in this game, Ganon had both the Triforce of Power and the Triforce of Wisdom, plus he had merged with Yuga's strength. So, in this game, he should have been stronger than he was in any game except ALttP.

And on that note, it's weird how Yuga Ganon didn't seem all that powerful despite possessing two Triforce parts. He mostly just shot small energy balls out and hid in the walls. Technically, as I said above, this should be Ganon's 2nd most powerful version in the entire series.

Yuga was Ganon's only link to the world. That was why he was able to be risen back up and that was why he left, because Yuga died. He was only going to be back as long as his host was in one piece. Link simply destroyed Yuga which in turn killed Ganon again. As you know, nobody has ever brought Ganon back this way before so maybe that's why it didn't work out for him this time. He wasn't technically whole here, regardless of how the game's graphics look.

At the time, I did buy this idea. But now I have to ask... so what if Ganon's life force was connected to Yuga? Yuga was still in possession of the Triforce of Power and Triforce of Wisdom. Just like Ganon, he should have require more than the Master Sword to be killed.

[close]

[Spark Of Spirit]

According to people involved with the game, Zelda Wii U is not going to be a "typical sandbox" open world, whatever that means.

Good for me, I find sandbox games dull unless there's a lot of good level design and missions that don't boil down to collecting things, killing a person or gang of people, or racing somewhere for 30 hours.

ALBW did the nonlinear thing well, but I think they could do it even better this time. I hope they do, anyway.

That's what I like to hear. Like I said before, I don't want Zelda Wii U to be a sandbox game. They just need to recall what was so awesome about ALBW and then go better than that, only this time, in 3D.

By the way, Spark, I remember having a few questions about ALBW's story...

Spoiler

First, let me quote an early post showing the discussion.

Exactly how did Ganon die? I mean, it was by the Master Sword. However, in each game, we've seen that the Master Sword alone doesn't have the strength to kill him when he's in possession of the Triforce. It was established early on back in ALttP and has remained true since then. In fact, I'll go over his deaths in each game.

LoZ: Killed by the Silver Arrows, which were established from the beginning to have the power to kill Ganon.

ALttP: Killed by the Silver Arrows, though this time it took multiple arrows to kill him instead of one, which could maybe be attributed to the fact that Ganon is powered by the complete Triforce in this game, whereas he only had the Triforce of Power in LoZ.

OoT: Not killed in this game. Merely sealed away.

OoS/OoA: Killed by regular weapons, but in this game, it was revealed that this was just a shell of Ganon and that the ritual to revive him failed, so him being killed by regular weapons isn't much of a big deal.

WW: Stabbed in the head by the Master Sword alone, but it was after losing the Triforce of Power. So, at that point, he was completely mortal, thus making it impossible for him to survive that sword blow.

TP: Stabbed by the Master Sword in the wound that was inflicted by the Sages long ago. The sword alone probably wasn't enough to kill him, but the Sages created a massive weak spot on him that probably made him able to be killed easier.

In ALBW, Link destroys him with the Master Sword, and that's about it. Not to mention, in this game, Ganon had both the Triforce of Power and the Triforce of Wisdom, plus he had merged with Yuga's strength. So, in this game, he should have been stronger than he was in any game except ALttP.

And on that note, it's weird how Yuga Ganon didn't seem all that powerful despite possessing two Triforce parts. He mostly just shot small energy balls out and hid in the walls. Technically, as I said above, this should be Ganon's 2nd most powerful version in the entire series.

Yuga was Ganon's only link to the world. That was why he was able to be risen back up and that was why he left, because Yuga died. He was only going to be back as long as his host was in one piece. Link simply destroyed Yuga which in turn killed Ganon again. As you know, nobody has ever brought Ganon back this way before so maybe that's why it didn't work out for him this time. He wasn't technically whole here, regardless of how the game's graphics look.

At the time, I did buy this idea. But now I have to ask... so what if Ganon's life force was connected to Yuga? Yuga was still in possession of the Triforce of Power and Triforce of Wisdom. Just like Ganon, he should have require more than the Master Sword to be killed.

[close]

Spoiler

I don't think Ganon was really killed, just no longer attached to the living world so he just fell away from it. Ganon wasn't really the villain this time, it was Yuga, who was using him as a force. Also, he may have had the Triforce's powers, but they weren't embedded in him like they are in Zelda, Ganon, and Link. All Link had to do was detach it from him and the two would be defeated.

[close]

That's how I see it, anyway.

[talonmalon333]

Uber God Tier: OoT, MM
God Tier: ALttP, LA, WW, TP, ALBW
Great Tier: AoL, OoA, OoS
Good Tier: LoZ, MC
Okay Tier: FS, FSA, ST, SS
Bad Tier: PH

Ranking games is too hard, so I decided to tier them. Someone else should try the same.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Sure, using your tier:

Uber God Tier: ALttP, LA, ALBW
God Tier: WW, OoA, OoS, OoT, MM
Great Tier: MC, TP
Good Tier: LoZ, AoL
Okay Tier: FS, FSA, ST, SS
Bad Tier: PH

But that's me.

[talonmalon333]

The reason I did the tiers the way I did is because half of the series is god tier, but some games are more godlike than others.

Also, I'm really surprised that you put the 3D games so high. You even called TP "great".

[Spark Of Spirit]

Sure, I don't think Nintendo has really made a bad Zelda game aside from one. Though I have my issues with some of the games, it's mostly personal preference as to why I like some more than others. I still think they're mostly really good games. Though I complain about OoT, it's mostly just nitpicking, the game is undeniably fantastic.

It's just what I do.

Twilight Princess, for instance, has some excellent dungeons, even if I don't like things like how the overworld is handled and the pacing bring a bit sluggish. Minish Cap is great in every way, except the length and some of the kinstones being dead ends and a waste of time.

[talonmalon333]

I actually think Minish Cap is merely good in every way. It doesn't have many real flaws I can think of, but I don't love any aspect of it.

[talonmalon333]

Am I the only one who tends to forget that Skyward Sword exists? Like, I only just remembered that game is in my house, and that it was made. Even when I think back to each and every 3D Zelda, I tend to remember Ocarina of Time through Twilight Princess, and then just forget that last one. And I have a feeling that Zelda Wii U will just totally blow it away, rendering it obsolete, and leaving it to be even more forgotten than it already is. And it's a shame because it could have been something great. It had all the right ingredients, and there are even sparks of greatness in it. But it is all just overshadowed by such mind boggling design choices. It's seriously one of those games where you look at it and, to quote James Role, think to yourself "What were they thinking?!".