Animation Revelation's Top 65 Cartoons Talkback Thread

[LumRanmaYasha]

 

1. The Simpsons- Well, the first 8-10 seasons are full of enough greatness to justify its ranking at #1, but I still think that it's far from consistent enough to be THE greatest.

To be honest, while the post Scully seasons are pretty terrible on the whole, The Simpsons has had the most influence on television, modern comedy, and especially animation more than any other animated television series past and present. That's why I don't mind it making #1 in lists like this, because for all it's bad, I think the weight of it's good overrules that to allow the series to deserve such praise.

2. The Flintstones- Okay, I'm the biggest defender of the show on this site and genuniely enjoy a lot of episodes, but #2? Hell no.

Top 20 maybe, but certainly not top 10, and DEFINITELY not over Looney Tunes.

3. Looney Tunes- I know, there are racist moments and a lot of weak shorts, but I still wouldn't put this below The Simpsons or The Flintstones. When the originals got it right, they're still among the funniest things ever made.

Not sure about the funniest things ever made, at least for me anymore since I find several shorts to show their age and not really be flat-out hilarious, but certainly it should be #1 for it's sheer influence, quality, and historical significance. But it always bothers me that the Silly Symphonies, Terrytoons, MGM cartoons, and other Golden Age classics are usually unrepresented in top lists like these while Looney Tunes always is. I think it might be too unfair to have Looney Tunes be on a list of television cartoons when they were produced for theaters like it's Golden Age counterparts that didn't have the fortune of being re-run so prolifically under a package umbrella, but I guess I will always be alone in that opinion...

4. The Peanuts specials- Eh, give or take.

I wouldn't put them in the top ten myself, but I'm glad to see them represented, finally.

5. Scooby-Doo- Fuck. And. No.

Where are You?, Pup, and Mystery Incorporated should/could all be somewhere in this list, but none of them top 20, much less top 10.

7. Batman: The Animated Series- Y'no, the show is already starting to show its age now, although moreso in the animation and pacing departments than  when it comes to writing, atmosphere, or voice acting. However, I still think that B:TAS will remain as the golden example of action-oriented animation in another 20 years, at least.

I've come to have more than just respect for this series and actually really do love it at it's best, now, and it's definitely top 3. Still wouldn't put it over The Simpsons, though. 

8. Spongebob Squarepants- I know, the show has had some good episodes and a big impact on pop culture. But honestly, even if you ignore the post-movie episodes, it just isn't THAT good.

I think it should be somewhere in a top list, but not top 20.

9. Family Guy- Fuck no.

For all it's bad, it can't be denied that the show had 5 good seasons and an enormous influence. Putting my bias and hate for it now aside, if I was objectively making a list of top cartoons, I would put it in the top 30 at the very least. I would put American Dad much higher than it anyway, though. 

Battle of the Planets

This is the only anime they have in their list? Over Bebop and Trigun? What. The. Fuck.

Drawn Together

I agree with this being on a top list. It is a hilarious show. I wouldn't put it high if I was making an objective list, personally, probably only top 60 at most, but I'm glad one of these top lists has it represented.

Dora the Explorer
Fat Albert and the Cosby Kids
George of the Jungle
He-Man and the Masters of the Universe
Iron Man: Armored Adventures
Jem and the Holograms
Josie and the Pussycats
The Magilla Gorilla Show
The Smurfs
Super Friends
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles

...no. Just...no. Some of these might not be god-awful, but they don't deserve to be anywhere near a top 60 cartoons list. Damn nostalgics...


Really, this list seems based more on popularity than quality, which is why AR's list is far, far better. The only reason I will not call this the title of the worst list of cartoons I've seen is the sheer fact they gave Drawn Together some respect. 

[Avaitor]

But it always bothers me that the Silly Symphonies, Terrytoons, MGM cartoons, and other Golden Age classics are usually unrepresented in top lists like these while Looney Tunes always is. I think it might be too unfair to have Looney Tunes be on a list of television cartoons when they were produced for theaters like it's Golden Age counterparts that didn't have the fortune of being re-run so prolifically under a package umbrella, but I guess I will always be alone in that opinion...

Welp, you know how we combined MGM's cumulative work in our list, and that was something I decided on almost immediately. We had some discussion about doing the same for Fleischer, but that never came to be, and I also brought up Disney's work, but that was actually ignored by everyone else.

But y'no, if and when we try an updated list, I might just have us try to do it entirely without theatrical cartoons. So no Looney Tunes or Tom & Jerry. Let's see how that goes.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

While we're on the subject, I'm going to come out and say my unpopular opinion, here. I know it's great to respect classic shows that have had a lot of influence on the medium, but I just don't think it makes for a very good list if you rate shows near the top just based on their massive influence. What matters the most in the quality of a show. I don't find it fair that a show like The Simpsons, which by now has just as many bad-to-mediocre seasons as it does good one is rated so close to the top of a list, while other shows with more consistent runs are left in the dust. By that logic, we shouldn't have left South Park out of the top 20 in our list, because that show was also very influential in its own right, and had its golden years (and to me still hasn't completely lost steam, as it does at least have a fair amount of hits with each new season). In that case, the show should've been higher.

If we ever update our list, though, Here's what I would say definitely needs to be done:

-Gargoyles should be in the top 5

-Avatar: The Last Airbender should be in the top 20 (even if it's not a personal favorite of mine)

-Yu Yu Hakusho should be removed from the top 10, but still kept in the top 20 (so that Lord Dalek will still be pissed off )

-Same as above for Ed, Edd, n' Eddy

-Johnny Bravo and Dexter's Laboratory should be removed from the list entirely (even if I still have a soft spot for them)

-Futurama should be moved lower because of the newer seasons, but still kept in the top 25

-Puella Magi Madoka Magica should be added to our list

-Digimon Tamers should be added to our list

-Monster should be lower (out of the top 10, at least)

-South Park should be in the top 20

-Batman: The Brave and the Bold should be in the top 30

-The Spectacular Spider-Man should be in the top 30

-Full Metal Panic! The Second Raid should at least crack the top 50


Other than that, everything else could stay the same and I'd be fine enough with it, but like I said, personally I wouldn't put The Simpsons quite so high, and I'll admit that I'm not the biggest fan of stuff like Johnny Quest or The Flinstones, even if they are highly influential and well-respected series of their times.

[Avaitor]

-Gargoyles should be in the top 5

It definitely should be higher!

-Avatar: The Last Airbender should be in the top 20 (even if it's not a personal favorite of mine)

hmm, I'll probably give it a rewatch by the point we do the next list, and see how I feel about it by that point. I was in favor of putting it higher than our original slot, but I still don't think it's top 20 good myself.

-Same as above for Ed, Edd, n' Eddy[/quote[
Eh, as far as I'm concerned, it's probably the best kids comedy show ever made and probably the most underrated cartoon of all time. I still think its top 10 slot is justified, personally.

-Johnny Bravo and Dexter's Laboratory should be removed from the list entirely (even if I still have a soft spot for them)

Really? Both are still hella fun, and Dexter has had enough of an impact to justify its spot on the list.

-Futurama should be moved lower because of the newer seasons, but still kept in the top 25

The newer seasons aren't nearly as great as the show's original run, but I don't think we need to knock it too far off. Maybe a couple of slots at most.

-Puella Magi Madoka Magica should be added to our list

-Digimon Tamers should be added to our list

I'll add them to my queue!

-Monster should be lower (out of the top 10, at least)

When we made the list, we really wanted to raise awareness of the show and Urasawa in general. But when you get down to it, the anime isn't THAT great. The manga is a masterpiece, I'm glad the anime exists, it deserves a slot on our list, but above Bebop? I don't think so.

-South Park should be in the top 20

Actually, do you think we could swap it with Futurama? In hindsight, that sounds better.

-Batman: The Brave and the Bold should be in the top 30

-The Spectacular Spider-Man should be in the top 30

Agreed to both.

-Full Metal Panic! The Second Raid should at least crack the top 50

Also agreed.

All I can really think of is that we should try to find some animation from countries besides the US and Japan, reevaluate Venture, and put Archer in at least the top 25.

[Foggle]

Honestly, I'm not a big fan of having top lists representing AR as a whole. All it's going to do is make people hate us and/or nitpick the list, as we've seen from when our members post this one on other sites.

IF we were to update it, I'd argue for Archer being at least in the top 20, and certain nostalgic shows (like Huckleberry Hound and The Flintstones) being either far lower or off the list completely.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Avaitor: With Johnny Bravo and Dexter, I was referring to how they had TERRIBLE final seasons, and while I have a lot of nostalgic love for both shows, I do feel that on re-watches, there are a handful of episodes that haven't aged that well from each. Most of season 1 of Johnny Bravo doesn't do it for me, anymore, leaving only the 2nd and 3rd seasons to pick up the slack (though I do still love those seasons to death, at least).

Honestly, I'm not a big fan of having top lists representing AR as a whole. All it's going to do is make people hate us and/or nitpick the list, as we've seen from when our members post this one on other sites.

But it's not the list itself that represents us. It's our opinions that do. In that regard, it's really no different from one of our regular reviews. I mean, what is out list but a representation of our collaborative opinions on animation at the given time? What better way to represent our opinions on animation than to display what we as a group consider to be the best cartoons out there? I mean, it's not like we just merely listed these shows for the sake of listing them. We actually explained our opinions.

Also, I said from the first time we were making the list that we really shouldn't call it a "best" list, because when you get down to it, there is no such thing as "objective" quality for entertainment. If viewed as a list of our favorite shows as a community, than I think people would be perfectly accepting of our list for what it is. The people who get so angry and nit-picky over that stuff are the types of people who can't respect other people's opinions on stuff. They'd be the same type of people who'd get pissed at our regular reviews if they weren't in direct agreement with their opinions. Do you really care so much if we get them upset with our list?

[Foggle]

Yeah, I understand your point better now of how it should be called "Our Favorite" rather than "The Best". Really, I'm just sour about people being assholes on the internet, as usual.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Oh yeah, I forgot one!

-Trigun should be in our top 30, as well!

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Yeah, I understand your point better now of how it should be called "Our Favorite" rather than "The Best". Really, I'm just sour about people being assholes on the internet, as usual.

I have become less sensitive to ass-holes on the Internet ever I met GSF back on TV.com.

Now, they just make me laugh.

[Foggle]

I think it's more that I actually agree with quite a few of the common criticisms in regards to our list, but very few people word their responses in a constructive way. Then I realize that this may be partly our fault, since some of those "shows that didn't make it" entries were abrasive as hell (I went back and rewrote a few of them upon reading responses from FAN). I feel like maybe we - as a group - weren't mature enough yet when we made the list originally. As I said in a recent blog entry, we need to set a good example when it comes to our pieces. This will make our writing more palatable, and our blog/forum more inviting for newcomers. We can stand out by being what few people on the internet are: chill.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Avaitor: Oh yeah, I also forgot to mention about Ed, Edd, n' Eddy. I know it's a great show, and I like it as well, but just like with YYH, I feel like it doesn't quite fit the top 10 for a list like this on a more collective viewpoint. What I mean is that I think you and I may have a lot of personal bias in our love for each of those shows, respectively, which may cloud our judgement for how much they would appeal to general masses. For what it's worth, though, in a perfect world, we wouldn't have to worry about justifying why either of those shows should be on a top 10 list.

I think it's more that I actually agree with quite a few of the common criticisms in regards to our list, but very few people word their responses in a constructive way. Then I realize that this may be partly our fault, since some of those "shows that didn't make it" entries were abrasive as hell (I went back and rewrote a few of them upon reading responses from FAN).

To be fair, I was against that from the start. If you read my entries for that bit, I feel that I explained my portion of the shows that didn't make our list pretty reasonably. I still don't think that should make you or any of us regret making our list, though. Our list at that time reflected our opinions at that time. Even back then we knew that we would want to update the list a few years from that point, since we know that our opinions constantly change. That's what makes it so interesting. It's fascinating to me to compare our opinions now to how they were back then, IMO.

I feel like maybe we - as a group - weren't mature enough yet when we made the list originally. As I said in a recent blog entry, we need to set a good example when it comes to our pieces. This will make our writing more palatable, and our blog/forum more inviting for newcomers. We can stand out by being what few people on the internet are: chill.

I agree, and on that note I'd like to add that we will never stop maturing. One thing that I have come to realize is that people are constantly changing over time. Even now that we have come a long way since our original list, we still aren't going to stop changing from this point. I guarantee you that our opinions on stuff now will be radically different from how they may be 10 years from now. I think that the articles we write, though, make for a good time capsule of sorts tracking the progression of our mindsets on entertainment value and other things in general at the given time that we write them. For that very reason, I feel it's actually a good thing to express our opinions on a regular basis.

[Foggle]

The only one I did for the bonus bit was GITS, which was wasn't abrasive at all. I'm not pointing fingers or anything - just pointing out that it made a lot of people mad. (Less understandable are the people who thought we hated or were banned from ToonZone because of the friendly little jab I had as our slogan at the time. Really guys?)

Anyway, I understand that we're always maturing. I can't even read some of my older stuff because it makes me embarrassed. At the same time, I don't want to delete it, because like you said, it's a time capsule. That's how I was at the time. Hopefully people can differentiate that from who I am now.

As for improvements/changes to the list, I'm fine with removing Dexter's Lab and Johnny Bravo entirely, though maybe Johnny could go near the bottom of the list. I mean, the last season of JB isn't very good, but I still quite enjoy the rest. Dexter, though... that later stuff really is dire.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

If only Dexter had ended with Last But Not Beast....

[Avaitor]

If only Dexter had ended with Last But Not Beast....

Really, that was a perfect finale. But I do agree, the later episodes are terrible. Worse than PPG's, for sure.

As for the list, well, it's fun to make lists and to talk about them, but eh, no on will ever truly agree on one. And there is more for us to offer with the site than just something like our Top 65 post. I don't think it'd be the worst thing in the world if we left that as a one-off and not update it.

[gunswordfist]

Rocky & Bullwinkle is one of the most boring cartoons ever. Spongebob blows it out of the water.

Anyway, I think Avatar and Spongebob are top 30s material (emphasis on being below 30 and not in the 20s or higher.)  Eds are top 10 material. Dexter should stay on the list. Johnny is hard to defend. I already mentioned how the show has an identity crisis and the last season is horrendous. I even got a laugh from Dexter's last season so I think Johnny's may be even worse than that.