Fighting Games

[gunswordfist]

Urien was created after Gill.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Well, it finally happened. One of the buttons on my fightpad is completely worn out and no longer works. While it's a shoulder button and not entirely essential, it made using EX attacks a whole lot easier, and it's awkward not having it. I may just have to switch to my brother's old arcade stick instead, as the only good fightpad for the X360 is the one from Mad Catz, but now they've become ridiculously expensive since they don't make that model anymore, so replacing it isn't an option. However, adjusting to a stick will be incredibly tough for me considering that I've played with pads for my entire life.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

So, let me just start off by saying that while I've always enjoyed fighting games, I inherently suck at them, and I have never been such a huge fan that I've played all that many games in the genre. That said, I can tell when something is genuinely great regardless of my experience with it (and it doesn't hurt that this game was essentially the most highly played game at tournaments for several years in a row). What makes Street Fighter IV and all its incarnations so excellent, to me, is that it's the type of game that manages to be fun despite being incredibly hard to get good at (as in, even when I'm losing to people more skilled than me twenty times in a row, I'm still somehow enjoying my experience in one way or another). Yes, other games in the genre have done this as well, but what sets SF4 apart even from those games is what I want to get into with this post, since I see several reasons for that. The following are all of the major reasons for why I have come to love this game so much:


Reason #1: The Fundamental Combat



Every fighting game series has its own distinct style of combat, and ever since Street Fighter II, the system for this series has always been the classic six-button control scheme. That combined with directional inputs is all that you really need to jump into things. Now, understandably, having so many buttons to choose from can seem overwhelming at first, and in some ways it probably is if you plan to get really good at the game. A lot of times newer players will be tempted to just start mashing buttons, and that can immediately turn them off since this game isn't button-masher friendly. However, if you just plan to have some fun with the game, then simply learning the fundamentals and bare basics is sufficient enough for you to at least stand a reasonable chance against an average opponent, and by that I mean stuff like how to properly use the normal attacks from any character of your choice, as well as how to pull off basic special moves. Rather than getting into stuff like FADCs, Super Cancels, buffering, frame data, i-frames, and other advanced concepts, learning basic things like general movement, spacing, and maybe how to throw out a fireball will get you further along in a match than you might realize.

Now, I must admit, since this game has been around for a while and a lot of people have moved onto SFV, while plenty of people are still playing SF4 online, it's mostly more advanced players, so using fundamentals alone may not necessarily be enough to win most matches. And for that reason, this game clearly isn't for everyone. The reason that it specifically ends up being fun for me is because I'm the type of player who doesn't mind losing, likes to learn from my defeats, and does feel a great sense of reward even when I manage to just put up a decent fight, despite clearly not being close to as good as the other player. In fact, it's because I can at least put up a fight against someone so much better than me that I feel a certain sense of fun and accomplishment from that alone. Every single hit that I land feels like a mini-victory in its own right, and it's rare that any game can make me feel like that.

To really cement in how far basics can get you, though, I'd like to direct you all to this video, which explains (and shows you) how important those are better than I ever could: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5xs1lkcMlI

Reason #2: Street Fighter Is NOT About Long Combos



Yes, they are there if you know how to execute them for certain characters, but they are not as big a part of Street Fighter games as they are of other popular fighting games. Most combos that I use, which are usually the more practical ones, tend to only consist of three-to-five hits, and are either easy to master target combos, or very basic normals-into-specials or vice-versa. No matter which Street Fighter game you're playing, this concept always applies. In fact, even in the long-winded, Daigo-level 20+ hit combos, it's really only the first few hits that deal out the most damage,while the rest of the combo may seem flashy, but the subsequent hits do less and less damage. Don't get me wrong, that can certainly still be useful and every pixel of health counts, but that's something that applies more at the pro-level than in general matches. It's a lot less overwhelming to get decent at a game when you know that you don't necessarily have to memorize and master incredibly long sequences of inputs complete with several one-frame links and very specifically timed cancels. Hell, one of the easiest combos to do in the game is a sequence of three hard punches with Makoto, which can totally be mashed out and deals out a substantial amount of damage to your opponents when landed. Sometimes just knowing basic stuff like that can be enough to have a deadly weapon up your arsenal.

Reason #3: It Rewards Players Who Learn From Defeat



Nothing that happens to you when fighting another human opponent in this game (minus anything relating to online lag, that is) happens without cause. If you lose, it's because you made too many mistakes and your opponent punished you for those mistakes. The same goes vice versa. If you win, take credit for it. It wasn't luck, but a combination of you playing your best and your opponent messing up. That said, as someone who admittedly still sucks at this game relative to other players, I lose more often than I win, but just like some of my favorite games out there (Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, etc.) I tend to learn from my losses and improve myself bit by bit. For example, when I first started playing the game, I often jumped in toward opponents to try and close the distance. I did this recklessly without any sense of timing, and often got punished for it with easy-to-land anti-air attacks. However, I noticed that better opponents than me were able to jump in and attack me without me being able to punish them, and they mostly did this after I whiffed certain special attacks with lots of recovery/vulnerability frames, mostly in terms of fireballs and other projectiles. I learned three useful things from this: One was to jump in only when opponents were vulnerable, the second was to punish opponents who jumped in at me recklessly with my own anti-air attacks, and the third was to only throw out certain attacks when I was at a safe enough distance from the opponent for them to not be able to reach me with a single jump in. That's just one basic concept, but it improved my gameplay so much just by learning from it. That's the kind of stuff that made me love gaming in the first place, and something that's seriously lacking from many other genres in this day and age where cinematic-pandering games like Uncharted rule the sales-charts.

Reason #4: The Characters, Art-Style, and Animation



Street Fighter has had so many iconic characters over the years that even non-fighting game fans can recognize, and a big part of the reason for this has to do with how distinct and full of personality they are. Capcom is the king of creating unique and interesting characters simply from an aesthetic standpoint. Power Stone, Rival Schools/Project Justice, and of course Street Fighter are all excellent examples of this. However, what's incredibly impressive about SF4, specifically in its final form as USF4, is how it manages to take a massive roster of forty-four characters and still find a way to make each one distinctly different from the rest. Sure, you have ones with similar fighting-styles such as all of the Shoto characters, but even they still have clear and easy to identify differences from each other, both in specific technique as well as their personalities. And with other characters, you can find so many fighting-styles that work on a completely different mentality and method of fighting than any other character in the game. You have a basic character like Ryu who adheres to all of the traditional fighting game fundamentals, but then on another side of the spectrum you have Zangief who is a very grapple-heavy character, or Ibuki who uses lots of target combos and mix-ups, or Abel who combines combos with grappling, or Chun-Li who uses a charge-based style of fighting that's very different from the regular input characters, or Gen who actually has two styles (Crane and Mantis) which he can switch between and which can utterly confuse your opponent if you learn how to master both of his styles. It's honestly rather absurd how deep and extensive each individual character in the game is. You could spend weeks on end with just one single character and still not have truly mastered them.

But, aside from just mechanics, what makes these characters so appealing is that they all have so much personality to them. I feel as though a lot of fighting games, even good ones, tend to delegate most information about their character into their back-stories, and just focus more on making them look cool in combat. What's great about Street Fighter is that it uses its art and animation to tell you so much about a character's personality and mental state simply through how they look and move. Each and every single attack tells you something about a character. When it comes to basic attacks, you can tell that Ken is a well-rounded fighter who uses all of his limbs, whereas Dudley is a traditional boxer who uses only his arms and fists, while Elena is exotic and only uses her feet to fight. But beyond just a character's particular fighting style, you can also learn about who they are as a person. For example, Dan Hibiki is the joke character of the series, and that can be seen through his actions, such as when you use his throw and he struggles to get the opponent over his shoulder, or when he uses one of his ultras and is blown back by the force of his own attempt at a Hadoken, to the mere fact that his own normal fireballs don't even reach very far before dissipating. The character taunt animations also show you about the character, whether they be proud, cocky, carefree, mischievous, or so on.



The Ultra animations in particular are a beauty to behold, showing both the best of this game's art and animation, as well as showcasing a lot more about the characters themselves. Abel's "Soulless" has him shed his more kind-hearted and respectable exterior and reveal the beast within as his eyes turn pure black and he unleashes a devastating attack on the opponent. Either of Ken's Ultras display how much he loves to show off, by showing him clearly trying to be flashy on purpose. One of my personal favorites is Cody's "Last Dread Dust" which showcases what a hooligan he is, by first kicking dust in his opponent's eyes to get in a cheap shot on them, and then smacking them straight into a wall using a classic Final Fight-style pipe as a weapon. And then there are the downright silly and absurd Ultras, such as El Fuerte's "Ultra Spark" which features him catching an opponent's head between his feet and spinning his body around them like a helicopter to propel them into the air, or Hakan's oil-based Ultras, one of which features him tripping an opponent up with his own well-oiled body and then proceeding to spin around them and shoot them out of his backside straight into a wall. In fact, just check out all of the Ultra animations for themselves (there are a total of ninety in the game) which speak for themselves, and of course feel insanely satisfying to successfully pull off. That, or you can also just view this top 20 list which showcases some of the best ones in the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX7gDhMG0KU&spfreload=10



What also helps to make a lot of these character animations work, though, is the game's general art-style. Now, to be fair, this is purely subjective and I understand that not everybody really likes this more cartoony, over-the-top art-style for Street Fighter. Personally, I love it. There are so many fighting games that have over-serious art that either ends up looking generic or unintentionally ridiculous. And while I love the art in stuff like King of Fighters, Tekken, and other titles, there is something pretty refreshing about a serious and competitive fighting game that clearly doesn't take itself TOO seriously by displaying its characters and stages in a colorful, vibrant, fun, and over-the-top manner. I just find it very appealing to look at, myself. And it's worth noting that a ton of work and talent went into designing this game and making it look both unique from other fighting games (including other Street Fighter games) and also making sure that it all had a good flow to it so that the animations would come out looking as good as they do in conjunction with that art-style.

Reason #5: It's Incredibly Fun To Watch Pros Play



Yes, I mean this as a legitimate reason for why this game is so great. It actually says a lot about a game's quality when it's seriously fun to even just watch someone else play when they are much better than you, especially when it relies on having played the game yourself. You see, once you have played enough of the game to understand how the basics work, and can tell someone's general level of skill from how they play. This makes watching pros like Daigo, Momochi, GamerBee, Infiltration, and various others going at each other in high-level tournaments produce some pretty unparalleled fun. I now watch the main tournaments at EVO every year, and it's incredibly exciting since I know how hard it is and how much insane skill these people have to pull off many of the feats that they do in these intense and fun-to-watch matches. I'm not one of those people who's into E-Sports or who even watches matches from other fighting games all that much, but I love watching matches from Street Fighter, and especially for this game. I've easily spent dozens of hours doing this alone, and what's also great about it is that I can learn how to play the game better simply by doing this as well.

At any rate, those are all of the main reasons for why I like this game, but to be fair, I'll list off a few issues with it that may turn off some other people:

-The game is not very single-player focused, and thus the arcade mode can range from either being too easy to ridiculously cheap depending on what difficulty you select. To be fair, though, "Trials" mode is excellent and can teach you a lot about how to do combos in this game, which is hard, but it's definitely worth trying to master some of the more simple but effective ones.

-As stated before, the people still playing this game online are mostly higher-level, and while not necessarily pros, it will make the game really hard to access to newcomers who aren't prepared to lose a whole lot and be patient and practice before they can start winning. To remind you, though, I'm still in the stage of losing far more often than I win, but I still enjoy my time playing this game, regardless.

-The game is not very pad-friendly unless you use a modified controller such as a fight-pad or an arcade-stick, which can unfortunately be rather expensive. To be fair, though, there are still plenty of people who were able to learn to play this game fine on a regular XBOX360 or PS3/4 controller, so it's still very doable, but perhaps not the best option for some players.

-This game is also not very story-focused, which shouldn't bother most people since nobody really plays fighting games for story, but in case you are one of those people looking for an interesting story, you won't find one here. You just get basic opening and ending scenes for each character, and they won't do much for you if you don't already know each character's specific backstory going into this game in the first place.

That's really about it in terms of cons, though. Personally none of those things bother me too much, and I also tend to like to spend a lot of time in "Training" and "Trials" mode, so I still get a good personal fix out of this game's single-player aspect despite really playing it more for multiplayer. I'll admit, this game is clearly not for everyone, but my point of posting this all was to explain why I have personally come to love it so much, and how it specifically caters to my interests. I would go so far as to say that it's personally my favorite game of the last generation of consoles, and it's the only one that I'm still playing from that generation as well.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I also wanted to bring up these two videos which I really feel explain the appeal of fighting games very well:

http://youtu.be/0U6ahedifJE

http://youtu.be/AGrIR_jlLno

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

It's kind of funny going back to the beginning of this thread and seeing how much my opinion on a lot of fighting games has changed, as well as what other people had to say about what was popular at the time.

The only one that hasn't changed for me is Mortal Kombat. I was recently replaying MK9 on my brother's XBOX360 and still maintain the same opinion on it. Great story, dull combat (or rather, it's just not for me).

I didn't really care about Street Fighter at that time, but now it's the only game from last gen that I'm still playing. Now that I have played enough of II Turbo, a decent amount of III Third Strike, and a ton of Super/Ultra IV, I can honestly say that while I respect II Turbo for its incredibly valuable influence on the genre, and love III's parry-mechanic as well as its very unique roster, I still like IV the best. Also, IV does not play like "II Turbo with a few enhancements," in regard to what a certain someone wrote.

I tried King of Fighters XIII, and while I enjoyed it, something about it just didn't hold my interest for a terribly long time. Personally I enjoyed Garou: Mark of the Wolves more, as far as SNK fighters go.

I still don't get all of the hate for MvC3, at all. Back then I didn't get it either, but just tried to fit in by saying that it wasn't anything special, but having played some of it again recently, I found it to be plenty of fun for what it was. If the complaint was that it's not very well-balanced for tournament play then I could understand, but what were people expecting, exactly? These games have always been notoriously busted. Personally, I still think that the complaints had more to do with people disliking the roster (which I think is fine, myself) and the lack of modes (which, to be fair, is a legitimate criticism), but nobody ever said anything to convince me that the gameplay itself wasn't fun.

I lost interest in Soul Calibur after V. I tried it and just couldn't get into it, personally. I also tried playing Tekken 6, but I realized that I'm even worse at 3D fighters than 2D ones, and let me tell you, I suck at 2D fighting games pretty hard as it is.

I still haven't played much of BlazBlue or Guilty Gear, but to be honest I have my hands full with just one or two fighting games at a time, so there's no way that I could juggle more anytime soon.

[Markness]

Yeah, not much of a 3D fighting game fan either. They demand so much out of the controls that they just aren't fun anymore. 2D fighters mix equal amounts of control skill and fun. I also like the character designs in 2D fighters more. The old Capcom and SNK games still look good due while the old Tekken games look dated.

I really love Guilty Gear and BlazBlue. In fact, they are the franchises that made me a believer of 2D fighting game fan. Electrifying character designs, cool backgrounds, fast gameplay, and blood pumping metal soundtracks.

[Markness]

Anyone been playing Xrd Revelator? I have and it has me hooked! My younger brother who normally doesn't play fighting games wanted to try it after seeing me play it and now he's a convert!

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

So, I was looking through Hideaki Itsuno's game-ography, and while he's most well-known for directing all of the Devil May Cry sequels and Dragon's Dogma, I was blown away by just how much he had done in the fighting game genre before that. I mean, I always knew that he directed the fan-beloved CVS2 and some other Capcom fighting games, but holy hell does he have one impressive track record.

He's done 3D Fighters such as:
Star Gladiator
Rival Schools
Project Justice

Arena Fighters:
Power Stone (Co-Directed)
Power Stone 2

2D Fighters:
Capcom Vs. SNK 2
Vampire Chronicle/Darkstalkers

And he's even done more stuff than that in other genres, like with more obscure games like One Piece Mansion (which appears to be a puzzle game of sorts) and Auto Modellista (a racing game). It really bugs me when people claim that Capcom lost all of its talented people when Hideki Kamiya and Shinji Mikami left. While Itsuno's games may not be as influential as either of them and he doesn't flaunt his name out with each of his major hits and thus is not as well known, he's still an incredibly talented director who's work I definitely want to go back and experience in full, eventually. What he may lack in sheer innovation, he more than makes up for with refined gameplay mechanics.

[Mustang]

I still don't get all of the hate for MvC3, at all. Back then I didn't get it either, but just tried to fit in by saying that it wasn't anything special, but having played some of it again recently, I found it to be plenty of fun for what it was. If the complaint was that it's not very well-balanced for tournament play then I could understand, but what were people expecting, exactly? These games have always been notoriously busted. Personally, I still think that the complaints had more to do with people disliking the roster (which I think is fine, myself) and the lack of modes (which, to be fair, is a legitimate criticism), but nobody ever said anything to convince me that the gameplay itself wasn't fun.

I lost interest in Soul Calibur after V. I tried it and just couldn't get into it, personally. I also tried playing Tekken 6, but I realized that I'm even worse at 3D fighters than 2D ones, and let me tell you, I suck at 2D fighting games pretty hard as it is.

I still haven't played much of BlazBlue or Guilty Gear, but to be honest I have my hands full with just one or two fighting games at a time, so there's no way that I could juggle more anytime soon.

Ah yes, the hate for MvC3. Believe it or not the hate was all related to the gameplay. It's masher friendly and the X-factor comeback mechanic. For me, crouching light attacks are my bane because I never could punish people for mashing lights on their wake-up (Too fast? Probably). But I think some of the pros were saying something along the lines of X-factor (Lvl 3 Vergil to be exact) was too cheap when they had to work so hard just for Vergil to come in and kill with 1  touch.

As for Soul Calibur, outside of SC1 I've never been much of a fan of the series, but I am getting back into the Tekken series when Tekken 7: Fated Retribution comes out. That game had me hype.

To me Blazblue and Guilty Gear are great games because of the freedom it allows whereas Street Fighter you have maybe 2-3 ways of playing a character. You're not going to find 2 Sol Badguy's being played the same way.

I'll touch on that SF4 post a little later. Interesting things in there.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

You see, I'd understand that complaint if those were from people who always disliked MVC games. However plenty of casual gamers admittedly just didn't like its roster and lack of content. The gameplay for these games have always been notoriously busted according to pros. Even as far back as X-Men Vs. Street Fighter there were way too many exploitable infinites among characters, including an easy two-hit combo that you could chain with Gambit once you got a character stuck at the edge of the screen. What I like about them is just that very fact that they are more geared towards casual fun and less about high-level technical play. So in that regard, it makes more sense to me when people complain about a game like SFXT having glaring balance issues as opposed to a series that was never known for being balanced in the first place.

And I'm aware that you're opinion on SF4 has soured from a few years ago. I still enjoy the game on my end, though not as a skilled player but as someone who likes the system. So while I can acknowledge its flaws my mind is pretty set on it.

And yes, Third Strike is the better technical fighter, and I love parry mechanics in just about any game. I just personally prefer the style that SF4 went with, making execution a little bit easier while not over-simplifying the mechanics too much, which SF5 is guilty of (though I still do enjoy what I've played of it).

[Mustang]

"Facepalm" I'm an idiot. I had to go back and read some of my comments lol.

Let me start this by saying I have so much more appreciation for USF4 now that I have played SF5. The core gameplay in SF5 is great, and very reminiscent to SF3 whereas you get punished hard for trying to be cute. It's more footsie/shimmy heavy and that's where the rest of the game falls flat to me. Even though the characters are different they are very much the same. The "Shimmy" is used by EVERYONE and it's even more dangerous when you're stuck in the corner. So the gameplay generally boils to who can get the person to the corner first, shimmy and rush (rinse and repeat). And people thought there was a lot of jumping in SF4, my goodness, Jump Fighter 5 anyone?

I have a love/hate relationship with USF4, but in the end I do love the game (Kind of like being with that special lady). Since SF5's release it's been "hate on SF4" and I'm like SF4 is flawed but it was still a great game (and I still play it). Yeah it was difficult to land those 1-frame links or FADC combos, but the reward you feel for landing them. Yes the vortex heavy characters were BS to deal with but I'd rather deal with the vortex than having everyone play the same. Don't get me wrong SF5 is a blast to play and at high level it's a blast to watch, but everything lower than high level is terrible (CEO going on right now and I don't plan on tuning in till about 8:00). The variety of characters in SF4, yeah, you have clones but they are still different from who they were cloned from. I wish I would see someone try to play Dan like he's Ryu.

So while I do think SF3 is still the best of the series (People may say Super Turbo but I've never been good with spacing hence why I play Dudley), USF4 is right there after it. Now I'm not going to bash SF5 (Capcom basically did it themselves when US and Japan blamed each other), but to get me hooked, just give me my combos (don't even have to make them 1-frame links) because I like to try and style on people and put Dudley, Guy, Yun or Cody in the game and I'd probably a little more satisfied.

I think your points were spot on about USF4, Ensatsu-ken, if anything, Makoto's Heavy Punch.



I've never played Makoto, but that links into itself? I would think the push back would be too far to link into itself, and even then that would be a 1-frame link, no?

I know I've seen people link Medium Punch 3 times.


And even then that's a 2-frame link I believe (might be 3), but even then, if you can get 3 consecutive Standing Heavy Punches to link into each other you are good and we'd have to get some games in.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

"Facepalm" I'm an idiot. I had to go back and read some of my comments lol.

Let me start this by saying I have so much more appreciation for USF4 now that I have played SF5. The core gameplay in SF5 is great, and very reminiscent to SF3 whereas you get punished hard for trying to be cute. It's more footsie/shimmy heavy and that's where the rest of the game falls flat to me. Even though the characters are different they are very much the same. The "Shimmy" is used by EVERYONE and it's even more dangerous when you're stuck in the corner. So the gameplay generally boils to who can get the person to the corner first, shimmy and rush (rinse and repeat). And people thought there was a lot of jumping in SF4, my goodness, Jump Fighter 5 anyone?

I actually do really enjoy the characters in SF5, myself, especially Nash and Rashid. I'm not a fan of how they changed Vega from being a charge character into an input character, though. I never thought that I'd say those words, and I did like Vega a lot at first, but after getting better with charge characters in SF4 and really like Vega's move-set there, it just feels really awkward for me to play as him in this game. To be fair that's a matter of getting used to, but something about using his moves that way just doesn't gel with me. That said, SF5 doesn't have any characters like Hakan or Poison who I just don't even really feel like trying to experiment with (and I do like most of SF4's roster, it's just that some of its original characters are really off to me).

I've personally been having more of a problem with how many features they have removed from previous games. Both SF3 and 4 had stand-out features that made them unique and added layers of depth to the combat beyond just the basics. With 3 it was the parry mechanic and with 4 it was Focus Attacks and by extension FADCs. It seems that 5's answer to this is V-skills and V-triggers, but while that sounds great on paper, they end up feeling a lot more shallow for most characters than they should. Stuff like Vega or Karin's V-triggers are only useful in very specific situations, and I wish that more characters' V-skills worked out to have more options to naturally combo into, or could be used to lead into combos. It's a great concept, but something about the execution doesn't feel quite as strong as the unique features of SF3 and 4 to me and how those could apply to multiple different situations and be used in a multitude of different ways.

Part of this may be my lack of skill, of course, but I've been watching pros play online matches and I'm not seeing very many interesting mix-ups from them that utilize these skills. There's also the pro complaint of the 8-frames of lag, but to be honest I haven't played all that much of the game in the grand scheme of things, and am not nearly good enough for this to either be a benefit or a detriment to my gameplay, yet. Despite all of this, though, I do really like the game and want to play more of it. It's just that since my brother owns the game and the PS4, I don't really have any access to the game when either he's playing or I'm away from home, so that severely limits my playtime with it.

I have a love/hate relationship with USF4, but in the end I do love the game (Kind of like being with that special lady). Since SF5's release it's been "hate on SF4" and I'm like SF4 is flawed but it was still a great game (and I still play it). Yeah it was difficult to land those 1-frame links or FADC combos, but the reward you feel for landing them. Yes the vortex heavy characters were BS to deal with but I'd rather deal with the vortex than having everyone play the same. Don't get me wrong SF5 is a blast to play and at high level it's a blast to watch, but everything lower than high level is terrible (CEO going on right now and I don't plan on tuning in till about 8:00). The variety of characters in SF4, yeah, you have clones but they are still different from who they were cloned from. I wish I would see someone try to play Dan like he's Ryu.

From what I've played online, the only characters that I outright hate having to fight against in USF4 are Guile and Ibuki. Guile is an incredibly defensive character and I absolutely suck at trying to counter players who are good at zoning, and Ibuki's mix-ups are just a nightmare for me to deal with. It's actually kind of hilarious how quickly a half-way decent Ibuki player can wipe the floor with me.

So while I do think SF3 is still the best of the series (People may say Super Turbo but I've never been good with spacing hence why I play Dudley), USF4 is right there after it. Now I'm not going to bash SF5 (Capcom basically did it themselves when US and Japan blamed each other), but to get me hooked, just give me my combos (don't even have to make them 1-frame links) because I like to try and style on people and put Dudley, Guy, Yun or Cody in the game and I'd probably a little more satisfied.

As for me, I've been training with Guy and Evil Ryu. Though recently my gameplay has taken a major hit. While I was never what I would call "good" at the game, I think that I was generally becoming a pretty decent player as far as low-level online play goes. But I was so used to using a fight-pad. That busted on me and it's hard to get another Mad Catz fight-pad for the XBOX360 since they don't make them anymore, and they are incredibly expensive to buy even used copies online. So I switched to my brother's stick which he let me have since he has personally shifted all of his focus onto SF5 lately, and that was about a month ago. Due to being busy, I haven't had time to play more than two or three days a week, and only a few hours at a time, so I still really suck at using a stick. For reference, there's that basic Evil Ryu combo that I always liked to use in online matches (Jump In HK, St.HP, M-Axe Kick, Cr.LP, L-Tatsu, H-DP), which wasn't too hard to pull off once you got the hand of the timing between the M-Axe Kick and Cr.LP, but now that I'm on a stick I have a hard time pulling that off consistently in even training mode against a dummy. It'll be a while before I can work my way back up to where I was.

I think your points were spot on about USF4, Ensatsu-ken,

Thanks!

if anything, Makoto's Heavy Punch.



I've never played Makoto, but that links into itself? I would think the push back would be too far to link into itself, and even then that would be a 1-frame link, no?

I know I've seen people link Medium Punch 3 times.


And even then that's a 2-frame link I believe (might be 3), but even then, if you can get 3 consecutive Standing Heavy Punches to link into each other you are good and we'd have to get some games in.

That's not a link. I utterly suck at links. It works more like a target combo. You hold forward and can basically mash out three standing heavy punches. It takes very little skill to actually execute, but it's also rather easy to block and punish. That said, it also works as an excellent punish in its own right. I also haven't played that much as Makoto, but other people have used it against me very effectively.

For such an easy combo, though, it does really good damage, and if you have Makoto's Super activated, I believe that it takes out a bit more than a quarter of most characters' health bars (unless they are above 1,000 HP).

Another really powerful combo that I found in the game is with Gouken (though you have to get a character into the corner of the screen in order to pull it off, so it's a situational combo). It can be started with either a jump-in attack or from on the ground, but if you manage to lead in with a jumping attack, then it goes like this: Jump-In HP (or HK, either works in this case), Cr.HP, EX-DP --> Lead Into Ultra 1 (Shin Shoryuken). It's very easy to execute and it does over 600 damage (if you're gauge is full, but even if not it's still very powerful), but it's also too easily telegraphed so I really need to outsmart my opponent in order to get an attack like that in, which is especially difficult since they are all the more cautions when backed into a corner.

I'd be glad to play you if you have the XBOX360 version of the game. The only thing I'll have to warn you about is that, like I said, I'm not very good at the game, so don't be too disappointed if I'm not much of a challenge for you. I still can't even beat my older brother more than once in every five or six matches, and he hasn't even been playing the game that much in the past couple of months. You would probably be able to mop the floor with me.

[gunswordfist]

I had no clue Itsuko had such a good track record. I thought he was just, "random Devil May Cry sequel guy".

[Mustang]

Part of this may be my lack of skill, of course, but I've been watching pros play online matches and I'm not seeing very many interesting mix-ups from them that utilize these skills. There's also the pro complaint of the 8-frames of lag, but to be honest I haven't played all that much of the game in the grand scheme of things, and am not nearly good enough for this to either be a benefit or a detriment to my gameplay, yet.

Agreed. I'm no where near being able to tell the difference from 5-frames of lag to 8-frames of lag, but I can certainly tell when my internet is crummy (which right now, it is). When I watch the pros play I cannot tell by watching. It seems to happen everytime someone is trying to anti-air.

From what I've played online, the only characters that I outright hate having to fight against in USF4 are Guile and Ibuki. Guile is an incredibly defensive character and I absolutely suck at trying to counter players who are good at zoning, and Ibuki's mix-ups are just a nightmare for me to deal with. It's actually kind of hilarious how quickly a half-way decent Ibuki player can wipe the floor with me.

My demons are grapplers and Elena. Because I play Dudley I always want to be right up on my opponent, but once they start grabbing it turns the tables because I'm terrible at teching throws (doubly bad when bad internet connection is involved). Elena is bad because she can just poke Dudley to death. I may start to try and play Ibuki because she can deal with Elena better than both Ryu and Dudley. I'm not confident in using shoto's against Elena either.

For reference, there's that basic Evil Ryu combo that I always liked to use in online matches (Jump In HK, St.HP, M-Axe Kick, Cr.LP, L-Tatsu, H-DP), which wasn't too hard to pull off once you got the hand of the timing between the M-Axe Kick and Cr.LP, but now that I'm on a stick I have a hard time pulling that off consistently in even training mode against a dummy. It'll be a while before I can work my way back up to where I was.

I know that feeling all too well. I'm still not confident in using stick. In fact I'd rather stick with pad (I use regular 360 controller, ds4 controller, although I do have this controller that looks like a 360 controller for the ps4 as well) for USF4 and convert to stick when playing 3rd Strike, Guilty Gear and Blazblue. In SF3 I cannot dash all that well on the controller because my thumb cannot keep up and in Guilty Gear, yeah, when you play Johnny good luck mist cancelling on pad.

As for that combo, I don't know if I'd say that's basic lol. To me basic with Evil Ryu is more Cr. LP>Cr.Lp>Cr.MP>L-Tatsu>H.DP. I'd say the combo you provided is more intermediate (mainly because of that link between Axe Kick to Cr.Lp), but the variations of that combo, woo boy (Meterless at that.... DAMAGE). I'm talking myself into picking Evil Ryu back up lol.

Another really powerful combo that I found in the game is with Gouken (though you have to get a character into the corner of the screen in order to pull it off, so it's a situational combo). It can be started with either a jump-in attack or from on the ground, but if you manage to lead in with a jumping attack, then it goes like this: Jump-In HP (or HK, either works in this case), Cr.HP, EX-DP --> Lead Into Ultra 1 (Shin Shoryuken). It's very easy to execute and it does over 600 damage (if you're gauge is full, but even if not it's still very powerful), but it's also too easily telegraphed so I really need to outsmart my opponent in order to get an attack like that in, which is especially difficult since they are all the more cautions when backed into a corner.

Most Gouken's I've seen use H-Fireball (might be Medium)>L-Fireball>Tatsu/Ultra 1 (build meter) after the EX-DP. Style points if you FADC Gouken's EX-DP mid-screen into Ultra 1/2 .

I'd be glad to play you if you have the XBOX360 version of the game. The only thing I'll have to warn you about is that, like I said, I'm not very good at the game, so don't be too disappointed if I'm not much of a challenge for you. I still can't even beat my older brother more than once in every five or six matches, and he hasn't even been playing the game that much in the past couple of months. You would probably be able to mop the floor with me.

Don't sell yourself short. I talk a big game but my execution is very crummy so for the time being I try to keep things simple, but you'd be surprise how far you can get with 1 basic combo and 1 punish combo, but because Dudley hits hard makes it a bit easier to keep things simple.

Edit: Whoops, I know quite a few combos with Dudley, but still, don't sell yourself short .

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

My demons are grapplers and Elena. Because I play Dudley I always want to be right up on my opponent, but once they start grabbing it turns the tables because I'm terrible at teching throws (doubly bad when bad internet connection is involved). Elena is bad because she can just poke Dudley to death. I may start to try and play Ibuki because she can deal with Elena better than both Ryu and Dudley. I'm not confident in using shoto's against Elena either.

Oddly enough I rarely ever come across anyone playing as Elena. Out of curiosity, which version of the game are you playing (XBOX360, PS3/4, or PC)? I suppose the types of opponents that people tend to main more often may vary by console.

As for that combo, I don't know if I'd say that's basic lol. To me basic with Evil Ryu is more Cr. LP>Cr.Lp>Cr.MP>L-Tatsu>H.DP. I'd say the combo you provided is more intermediate (mainly because of that link between Axe Kick to Cr.Lp), but the variations of that combo, woo boy (Meterless at that.... DAMAGE). I'm talking myself into picking Evil Ryu back up lol.

True, I probably shouldn't call it basic as even on a pad I did drop that combo on numerous occasions, but at least I was able to pull it off fairly consistently in training mode. With a stick so far I drop it at least half of the time (probably more), and have yet to actually use it successfully in an online match.

With the stick, I've been trying to use the Japanese-style grip by holding it in-between my index/middle and ring/pinkie fingers. It still feels awkward to me, but I'm slowly getting used to it, and it does certainly make it a lot simpler to dash. That said, I have a much harder time with techs using a stick's button layout. On a pad it was really simple and easy to use LP + LK together and react with that input very quickly, but on a stick there's a lot more space between buttons and I have to give my fingers a real work-out.

Most Gouken's I've seen use H-Fireball (might be Medium)>L-Fireball>Tatsu/Ultra 1 (build meter) after the EX-DP. Style points if you FADC Gouken's EX-DP mid-screen into Ultra 1/2 .

I knew that you could use an EX-fireball after an EX-DP as the opponent is coming down, but I wasn't aware that you could juggle them with two regular fireballs. I'll have to try that out sometime. While I could incorporate the EX-fireball into that combo that I mentioned and then follow it up with Ultra 1, I find that it's ultimately a waste of meter since it only does about 30 HP worth of extra damage. If you can use regular fireballs and still manage to follow up with an Ultra, though, then it might be worth going for if it's not too hard to pull off.

Another character that has an easy way to combo into either Ultra 1 or 2 is Sakura, since her EX-Tatsu works as a launch and her Shinku Hadoken also has a variant that can be aimed diagonally, while her Ultra 1 can catch an opponent when they are close to the ground. That said, I don't like using that character too much since a lot of her combos rely on links, with quite a few of those being of the 1-frame variety.

Don't sell yourself short. I talk a big game but my execution is very crummy so for the time being I try to keep things simple, but you'd be surprise how far you can get with 1 basic combo and 1 punish combo, but because Dudley hits hard makes it a bit easier to keep things simple.

Well, thanks for the vote of confidence, but rather than selling myself short, it's more like me just being honest about my experience with the game. As I mentioned in that earlier post about why I love this game so much, I lose way more often than I win. Of course I do feel like I learn from each defeat and get a little better each time, but it doesn't really help that most people have moved on to playing SF5, and the people left playing SF4 on the XBOX360 tend to be upper B-ranked players with a few thousand BP or more on average. I'm still at a D-rank, BTW, and the highest BP that I ever had with a character was with Evil Ryu, and I was still only in the hundreds. Every time I manage to get a few wins under my belt, I quickly find myself in a losing streak again and my BP get knocked back way down.