Batman: The Animated Series

[talonmalon333]

My friends and I just got done a BTAS marathon. First 13 episodes. Man, this show's awesome.

Hoping to continue the run tomorrow.

[talonmalon333]

By the way, what are you guy's favorite episodes?

[Spark Of Spirit]

You'll find that out a little later...

But lets just say that I think Moon Of The Wolf is uniformly terrible and the worst episode by far.

[talonmalon333]

But lets just say that I think Moon Of The Wolf is uniformly terrible and the worst episode by far.

Why?

[Spark Of Spirit]

But lets just say that I think Moon Of The Wolf is uniformly terrible and the worst episode by far.

Why?

Bad story, bad characters, bad direction, bad writing, bad animation, bad ideas... Honestly, it hits all the marks. It also has barely of anything to do with Batman to the point where it could be any other character in his role.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Personally, "I've Got Batman in My Basement" is what I consider to be the worst episode in the entire series by far.

[Spark Of Spirit]

That's probably my #2. But honestly, while I disliked both, MOTW just irked me more when watching. I'm not really sure why.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Yeah, I think we can all at least agree that they are both utter shit. Thankfully episodes that bad were a rarity for this show.

[talonmalon333]

I think "Prophecy of Doom" was the worst in the series. Everything about that episode was just so... meh, to me.

[Avaitor]

^Actually, that is Bruce Timm's personal least favorite one.

It is... pretty campy, to say the least. Not so much in a fun way, IMO.

[talonmalon333]

Just rewatched Mask of the Phantasm with a few friends. I remember saying this a few months ago, but I stand by the opinion that I like this better than Return of the Joker.

I think my only real issue with RotJ was that I wasn't sold on the explanation on the Joker's return. It might be true that there wasn't much else they could do, but I really think they made a pretty big stretch.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Just rewatched Mask of the Phantasm with a few friends. I remember saying this a few months ago, but I stand by the opinion that I like this better than Return of the Joker.

I like both about equal for different reasons, but the more I re-watch them, the more I honestly have to give the edge to ROTJ, if only because I find it to be more sharply written (but a little bit), and because I find the struggles of the older Bruce Wayne to be more desperate than when he's in his prime, and therefore a bit more interesting in the context of these 2 animated features.

I think my only real issue with RotJ was that I wasn't sold on the explanation on the Joker's return. It might be true that there wasn't much else they could do, but I really think they made a pretty big stretch.

I'd argue that having the Joker tied into the murder of Andrea's father was WAY more of a stretch. I love the movie, but if I had one problem with it, its that the Joker was just blatantly forced into the plot even though there really was no solidly good reason for him to be there. Having him written into the past like that just seemed like a desperate attempt to justify his presence in the movie. I don't hold it against it too much since The Joker is a great villain, but in this case it seems like he was included more for his popularity and I just don't feel that he comes off as strong as he does in the TV series for that reason, personally. In ROTJ, while the circumstances for The Joker's return were definitely pretty contrived (but its not like there weren't a ton of contrived plot points in the BTAS TV series itself, so to me the explanation in ROTJ is far from the worst offender of that) he was definitely at his best in terms of being a villain, IMO. He really got into Bruce's psyche, and even managed to be initimidating and in general was far more of a threat in ROTJ than he was in MOTP, IMO. I mean, in one film he had a giant satellite laser that he could use on a whim to level an entire city, whereas in the other he was simply just fighting Batman and his old love interest. He's definitely great to watch in both films, but I do think its clear which one really pushes the limits of how grand his plots can get in scope.

[talonmalon333]

I like both about equal for different reasons, but the more I re-watch them, the more I honestly have to give the edge to ROTJ, if only because I find it to be more sharply written (but a little bit), and because I find the struggles of the older Bruce Wayne to be more desperate than when he's in his prime, and therefore a bit more interesting in the context of these 2 animated features.

I'd argue that having the Joker tied into the murder of Andrea's father was WAY more of a stretch. I love the movie, but if I had one problem with it, its that the Joker was just blatantly forced into the plot even though there really was no solidly good reason for him to be there. Having him written into the past like that just seemed like a desperate attempt to justify his presence in the movie. I don't hold it against it too much since The Joker is a great villain, but in this case it seems like he was included more for his popularity and I just don't feel that he comes off as strong as he does in the TV series for that reason, personally. In ROTJ, while the circumstances for The Joker's return were definitely pretty contrived (but its not like there weren't a ton of contrived plot points in the BTAS TV series itself, so to me the explanation in ROTJ is far from the worst offender of that) he was definitely at his best in terms of being a villain, IMO. He really got into Bruce's psyche, and even managed to be initimidating and in general was far more of a threat in ROTJ than he was in MOTP, IMO. I mean, in one film he had a giant satellite laser that he could use on a whim to level an entire city, whereas in the other he was simply just fighting Batman and his old love interest. He's definitely great to watch in both films, but I do think its clear which one really pushes the limits of how grand his plots can get in scope.

Fair points. I personally don't think his part in MotP was much of a stretch (the Joker was already established as previously being a gangster after all). At the same time, I agree that the Joker himself was better in RotJ, for all the reasons you listed and more. And I'd even argue that was one of his best appearances ever.

[Spark Of Spirit]

If it was the Joker who was tied to Mr. Beaumont's murder, then I might agree with you. But it was technically Jack Napier, before the Joker existed. On that level I find it acceptable. IMO, it's better than him being Joe Chill.

That said, I also don't mind the Joker's return in ROTJ. Considering that beings like Mr. Freeze and Clayface were able to live despite the fact that they should have died horrible deaths, it's not too hard to imagine the Joker having a similar revival.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

All this talk about these 2 animated Batman movies really makes me want to write-up a review feature for them. I haven't done one in a while, so maybe I'll do a short write-up tomorrow expressing why I think that these are 2 of the best Batman movies ever, even when taking Nolan's TDK into consideration.

Fair points. I personally don't think his part in MotP was much of a stretch (the Joker was already established as previously being a gangster after all).

Its true that he was established as having been a gangster in the past before he became The Joker, but I was saying that it was a stretch that he just happened to be the very gangster who killed Andrea's father. That just seemed like way too much of a coincidence to me, and it felt more like they just did that since they needed a reason to get The Joker involved as a villain in the plot. Like I said, I don't mind since its understandable given The Joker's popularity, and I do like seeing him in the movie, but I just felt that it was a real stretch to write him into the story that way.

That complaint aside, though, its still a terrific animated movie. I mean, I wouldn't rank it as one of my top 30 favorite films of all time for no reason, after all.

At the same time, I agree that the Joker himself was better in RotJ, for all the reasons you listed and more. And I'd even argue that was one of his best appearances ever.

Yeah, while Batman Beyond as a whole could never really measure up to its predecessor BTAS in terms of overall greatness, I do think that Return of the Joker as a feature in and of itself was one of the best things to come out of the entire DCAU, and in that regard I would say that its on par with the best features of BTAS, including MOTP, of course.