Game of Thrones

Started by Lord Dalek, April 07, 2012, 11:19:49 AM

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Dr. Ensatsu-ken

#316
Found a video trying to rationalize why Tyrion has been acting so stupid in the past few seasons: https://youtu.be/ju8WXvLVNRM

Not that I don't appreciate the effort, but like many people in the comments wrote, I just don't think that the writers of this show understand how to write for smart characters (Littlefinger and Varys also suffered from this). People complain about how slow GRRM's writing process is, but people don't realize just how much thought and care he puts into every detail of his characters, plot, and world-building. People also complain about the books having too much "filler," but don't realize that all of those additional interconnected plot-lines also provide much of the substance that give the many characters of the series something to work with. The show has the disadvantage of having to come out on a schedule, so the writing process is rushed. Without the books to have pre-existing material to already work off of, the writers are only focused on carrying the plot to an ending point rather than having the characters drive the plot. Thus, certain characters have to suffer simply because the plot can't afford to have them actually think logically or not be cartoonishly evil in order to progress the plot the way the writers need it to in order to reach an ending.

You can also tell which parts of this ending come from the show writers and which are from GRRM's pitched version of the ending to them. As Preston pointed out in his latest podcast episode, the context in which Jon's parentage is revealed to him is VERY much in style with GRRM's writing in terms of thematic implications. One of the major points of this book series is just how terrible and broken the familial succession system is, and whereas a reveal like Jon's lineage would be a positive turning point moment in traditional story-telling, it's reveal here is a massive complication that makes things worse for the characters. The typical solution to the problem in this kind of story has been subverted to only adding to the problem as it will force one character to be at odds with another.

So, there are traces of good story concepts in there, but it's unfortunately muddled by a lot of outright bad writing choices to even get us to that point.

Dr. Insomniac

Another episode of setup. Felt like you could edit this and the premiere together into one 75 to 90 minute episode with little loss.

Like that Arya and Gendry sex scene... no. No.

Dr. Ensatsu-ken

Well, I appreciated that "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms" reference. I'm also OK with building up to the battle like in previous battle episodes by giving the characters some final bonding moments together. But, you know, those episodes also managed to actually do that and still get to the actual battle. No idea how with only five episodes left from the beginning of this one, the writers thought it was a good idea to actually take up the whole entire episode on sentimental moments.

You know, I should probably be clear: for as much as I bitch about this show, I honestly don't want to be doing so. It's just that if the writing itself is not baffling me with how nonsensical some of it's decisions are, the choice in pacing is as with the first two episodes of this season.

Also, I just wanted to point out that now Theon, too, has learned the power of using warp zones.

At any rate, at least the next episode has no excuses. Anyone want to take bets on who dies? My guesses are:

Greyworm (the most obvious choice)

Theon (the second most obvious choice)

Davos (pretty safe bet since he's completely outlived his usefulness to the narrative)

Beric (same as Davos)

Jamie or Brienne (one dies defending the other, with Jamie being more likely)

Dr. Insomniac

It would be funny if Lyanna Mormont turned into a Wight, and Jorah was forced to hurt his family yet again and kill her.

Dr. Ensatsu-ken

Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on April 21, 2019, 09:38:21 PMIt would be funny if Lyanna Mormont turned into a Wight, and Jorah was forced to hurt his family yet again and kill her.

Oh shit, Jorah, I knew I was forgetting someone. Yeah, add him to the list, too.

I doubt Lyanna will die if only because D&D love their "little girl bad-ass" characters, hence why Arya will also be safe. Mind you, I find it completely cringe-worthy, especially since Lyanna's actress is pretty bad (nothing against the person behind the role, but few child actors are tolerable), but that's just what those two seem to think makes a good character. With logic like that, it's no wonder we had to suffer the Sand Snakes for two and a half seasons.

Dr. Insomniac

#321
Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on April 21, 2019, 09:50:28 PM
I doubt Lyanna will die if only because D&D love their "little girl bad-ass" characters, hence why Arya will also be safe. Mind you, I find it completely cringe-worthy, especially since Lyanna's actress is pretty bad (nothing against the person behind the role, but few child actors are tolerable), but that's just what those two seem to think makes a good character. With logic like that, it's no wonder we had to suffer the Sand Snakes for two and a half seasons.
I think the acting is due to bad direction than anything. Lyanna's actress was all right in that Hilda cartoon. And Maisie Williams gave a more dynamic performance as a nameless killer in her four episodes of Doctor Who than she had in the last three seasons of GOT.

And I wonder if the show's love of strong little girl characters is meant to be a last-minute backpedal after complaints about the show's treatment of women like giving Sansa a frustrating rape and revenge plot she didn't have in the books, or dumbing down several female characters like the Sand Snakes and Yara. And especially how Margaery and Olenna died for bullshit plot reasons.

Also, telling your civilians to go to the crypt for shelter when you're fighting an army of necromancers sounds like a horrible idea.

Dr. Ensatsu-ken

So despite everything working in the favor of the army of the dead, the Night King lost because he had to conveniently walk to Bran super slowly and then let his guard down with Arya. Yeah, you can tell Dave and Dan wrote this.

It was a really well-directed episode, at least.

Dr. Insomniac

Was it well-directed? I could barely see anything because of how dark most of the episode was.

Dr. Ensatsu-ken

The battle scenes were not good. It was too much shaky cam and was clearly meant to disguise the budget. However, that was mostly over with after the first third of the episode when a lot of people were dead. The scenes not involving large scale fighting were pretty good at ratcheting up the tension. For example, the scene with Arya sneaking around the White Walkers was a legitimately well-directed scene. It's also nice that we actually saw genuine fear in her for once and we weren't forced into a cringe-inducing "girl-power" moment where she obnoxiously tries to act like a bad-ass at all times. Likewise, the build-up to the battle was very effective.

I suppose I shouldn't say that it was well-directed on the whole, especially with better battle scenes like in Battle of the Bastards, but the actual bits with main and supporting characters trying to survive once most of the stock soldiers in any given area were dead were well-done, IMO.

Dr. Insomniac

Yeah, I liked those scenes.

So in hindsight, the Night King was a weak villain. Vague agenda that we only get from Bran. Stupid tactics like ice-spearing Viserion instead of Drogon while Dany and several main characters were on top of him. Spent so long walking to Winterfell that the wrath of the White Walkers became a meme. And being a silent antagonist meant he had little character to speak of. Guess you could argue he was more of a force of nature than a character, but Sauron was basically a force of nature, and he was more interesting throughout LOTR than the Night King was here.

Now that's all settled, what bullshit's going to happen to prevent Arya from masking herself as a Lannister servant and gutting Cersei in her sleep?

Dr. Insomniac

Been seeing these "The Night King isn't really dead. He wouldn't be that stupid to let Arya kill him so easily" and "The Dothraki are just hiding. Daenerys wouldn't let her beloved soldiers sacrifice themselves so easily" theories. And they're all the same wishful thinking that fueled people who thought the Umbers were actually scheming to overthrow Ramsay, or thinking the Waif stabbed Jaqen H'ghar disguised as Arya.

Dr. Ensatsu-ken

I can't be too harsh on them. I too was in this denial period for most of season five and even the beginning of season six. The thing is, the first three and a half seasons of the show were legitimately great (season four admittedly had the start of many of these problems, but I still cut it a lot of slack). Nobody wanted to admit that one of their favorite shows was rapidly becoming this bad from what it used to be. However, looking back on it, you can clearly see that the show's success relied heavily on the strong source material that it had to draw from. People give GRRM way too much shit for how slow his writing process is, but don't seem to understand that he puts a ridiculous amount of time and thought into his characters and world, exploring themes and messages while rarely ever betraying the established logic and rules of his Universe to make that happen. That's what made the series so special and stand-out in it's genre to begin with.

Comparatively, if you ask any team of writers to follow up on that by filling out entire seasons worth of content with only mere weeks worth of time to script it out between production shoots, this is exactly what you're going to end up with; a bastardized Hollywood version of what used to be a story that subverted such cliche writing. The thing is, I don't hate Dan and Dave like so many people do. I get that they are just two guys trying their best to hold things together after they got stuck doing this show without a strong backbone of a story to work off of. In all fairness, even GRRM himself admitted that finishing the books before the show got that far was always originally the plan. However, he's also the kind of writer who won't rush anything out before it's ready, but an HBO show with constantly aging actors who continually need work or will leave for other projects doesn't have that luxury. So, in the end, we're just left with a half-assed mess that is bound to disappoint everyone.

The White Walkers, so far as the show goes, were essentially an enemy built up over a decade only to be defeated in the most deus-ex-bullshit anticlimax ever. This is so unlike GRRM's writing style that I feel confident in claiming it to be an invention of the showrunners, and we kind of have no choice but to just deal with it. I'm really just in it to see how bad of a clusterfuck the ending will be.

Dr. Ensatsu-ken

So, Bronn just waltzes into Winterfell with a loaded crossbow and makes it all the way to the inner castle without anyone batting an eye? Well, if nothing else, at least the writers are consistent with the general incompetence of the guards and basic defense protocols in this series.

Compared to the crap that we've been getting, it's not that bad of an episode on it's own, and David Nutter (same guy who directed The Reigns of Castamere) knows how to ratchet up the tension in key scenes, so it has some good direction going on. That said, it still suffers from so much of the bull-shit leading up to it, which is to say that the whole situation at hand is nonsensical because of all of the nonsense writing that lead to it in the first place. There's genuinely know way for this series to redeem itself for a satisfying ending like so many people are hoping. The damage done is too strong for the story to even begin to make a lick of logical sense anymore.

Like, one of Dany's two remaining dragons being killed feels like a big deal, but it's utterly stupid to expose it like that in the first place when she knew full well that they had ballistae that her dragons were vulnerable to in the first place back when Drogon took a direct hit from one last season. It just seems like another massive bout of incompetence that she and her two closest advisers would allow her to expose herself like that when they already have the information of what their enemy is equipped with. Beyond even that, didn't they already say that there plan would be to mount a siege to starve the kingdom and make them turn on Cersei? If that were the case, they have no reason to be that close to the castle. They need to block the key points in the routes leading there, which would have been a more effective use of Dany's remaining army and dragons. I guess D & D really wanted that pointless staredown between Dany and Cersei.

Dr. Insomniac

#329

Glad that they built a Starbucks up in the North.

So either Jaime throws away seasons of character development to join Cersei again, or he's being an asshole to Brienne for no reason other than to drag viewers on like the Arya/Sansa fight last season.

And what was with that scene where Sansa says getting raped by Ramsay made her a better person? Spending 30 whole minutes on the characters getting drunk was so self-indulgent. Then again, I would have preferred a scene where Jon goes to Deepwood Motte and beheads some traitorous Glovers, so who am I to judge?