Ninja Gaiden Series

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

The worst thing about the 1st game is that you know that the developers were deliberately just being ass-holes when sending you back 3 levels after dying to a single one of the final bosses just once. I mean, they went so far as to admit that they discovered that feature as a glitch and could have easily fixed it but decided not to because they thought it'd be more "fun" for players to have to deal with that bull-shit.

Seriously, how sadistic can you get?

You know, hardcore fans of the classic games would hate to hear this, but for as much as they want to rag on Itagaki for not making his "3D" NG games play anything like the "2D" ones, the truth is that he at least had a much more balanced game with fair difficulty than any of the classic games, whether they want to accept that or not.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Now, I find it necessary to defend my position on why I personally find this game to still be ahead of its time in many regards, but since I'm lazy I'll only give 2 main reasons as to why.

Now, I LOVE the beat-em-up genre in general, which is my favorite sub-genre of action games. And I especially love hack n' slash games, which is my favorite sub-genre of beat-em-up games (and incidentally the only one that exists). And of all action games in general (and hell, all games ever, but for now we'll keep the focus on action games), NGB is clearly my favorite game ever. That's no secret to anyone who knows me.

But, let me just briefly elaborate (for once) WHY exactly it is my favorite game among the other beat-em-ups. It excels at 2 things that make it stand out to me. For one thing, I like how the combat, still to this day, is simply more fluid than any other action game around. Now, I LOVE DMC and Bayonetta from what I've gotten to play of them. They have a wild and fun over-the-top nature, and for that matter I know I'd also love games like God Hand, MadWorld, and No More Heroes. But by contrast, Ninja Gaiden doesn't feature nearly that level of craziness....or rather, it is pretty over-the-top, but in its own way. To be quite honest, I actually like the fact that Ninja Gaiden's combat is more grounded. What I mean is that NG's combat is still highly unrealistic yet the movements flow and have a feeling of a believability to them. I just like how the whole physics of the game mechanics works, in that everything Ryu does in terms of how he moves and fights feels like it has both rhyme and reason to it. Sure, he doesn't magically pull out some weird torture device to do awesome finisher moves to enemies like Bayonetta does, nor does he have so many bad-ass ways to maul enemies to pieces like Jack does (the dude from MadWorld), but its for the reason that his movements are so much more limited in terms of being believable in fluidity, yet feel so limitless in execution of the combat, that I find NG's handle on melee-based combat to be the best around in gaming.

And, the other reason is a rather simple one, but how exactly should I put it?....Well, OK, let me say this. I highly respect Hideki Kamiya. I really do. And for what its worth I didn't mind him saying that he didn't care about Ninja Gaiden games and even refused to acknowledge them as worthy action games (even though he admitted that he never actually played any of them). Stuff like that doesn't really tick me off, otherwise I'd eternally hate Tomonobu Itagaki if I let comments that developers said get to me. I also think that he did succeed at creating the best action game in Bayonetta....well, 2nd best, actually. You see, I do think that even Kamiya could learn one important thing about the evolution of hack n' slash games, despite being responsible for creating the genre himself. Bayonetta, DMC, and a bunch of other hack n' slash games for that matter could all benefit to some degree by incorporating an element that, so far, only the NG games have really seemed to go with (and that that its mostly just NGB, as even NG2 disappointingly kind of strayed a bit away from this aspect of gameplay).

Now, you know how F.E.A.R. is widely regarded as the game with THE best AI in any FPS game ever. Well, to me, in regards to AI and how they should respectively be programmed in terms of the game of their genre, I feel that NGB has the best AI in a beat-em-up game, ever. I mean, in the other games in the genre the enemies and bosses certainly aren't pushovers, but they are all clearly designed to give the players openings. In Ninja Gaiden....well, you REALLY get the feeling that those fuckers called enemies want Ryu dead, at any cost. And that may not mean much if I just say it, so let me just show you what I mean:

Here is gameplay from God of War 3- Cool

Here is gameplay from Devil May Cry 3- Awesome

Here is gameplay from Bayonetta- Amazing

Here is gameplay from Ninja Gaiden Black- I believe I just climaxed....So, does anyone else see a difference compared to the rest?

Now, I don't know about you guys, but that shit just gives me a fucking adrenaline rush.

Alright, in all seriousness, this is just my personal reasons for liking NG the best. I know I'm one of the few, but it really doesn't get enough credit for what it truly excels at in aspects that other games just don't choose to focus on at all. That's just me, though.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

This article has both potentially good and bad things to say about what NG3 might end up being like.

Also, is Hayashi calling the first 2 of the 3D NG games outdated? He uses the term "old" to describe them, which I agree with if he means that they are old-school in design, but if he means dated, then I disagree wholeheartedly. In some regards they may show age, but in terms of combat and the key components of an action game, I say that they are both far ahead of their time in terms of execution of their gameplay mechanics.

The one thing I kind of liked was how it seems that the enemy count will be reduced in this game in favor of making you work more to earn your kill by having fewer but much tougher and more challenging enemies (as in, more like NGB than NG2, if done right). But then he gets into all this bull-crap about "realistic" cutting and shit, and NG games aren't about realism (at least not in that regard), and it just seems like a poor excuse for him to slow down the combat for the casual players to be able to deal with. The problem with that is that slowing down the combat too much will take away the main thing that makes the combat in the 3D NG games so much fun to begin with, which is its intense level of speed. Eh, its reasons like this for why I hate the idea of Hayashi being in charge of new NG games,a nd in that regard I don't trust the current Team Ninja to make a competent action game on their own, and I especially don't trust Tecmo's reliability as a game publishing company.

[Foggle]

This article has both potentially good and bad things to say about what NG3 might end up being like.

This sounds... kind of gross, to be honest.

Anyway, I agree with you about NGB having excellent AI, especially for the genre. It's always refreshing to see enemies use tactics to try and bring you down rather than just rushing you in a straight line or hiding behind cover.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

This article has both potentially good and bad things to say about what NG3 might end up being like.

This sounds... kind of gross, to be honest.

If you're talking about that whole "feeling of cutting" crap that Hayashi is spewing out, then I agree. I mean, I'm sure its not just me who actually likes hack n' slash games for being over the top and unrealistically "smooth" in terms of slicing up enemies. To me it seems like this whole shit that he's bringing up, aside from slowing down the action considerably (which would already be a huge setback to the game in and of itself), will make the next NG game feel more like a whole game based off of the chainsaw type of kill in Gears of War. While that type of kill is fun to do once in a while in that game, I don't want a whole fucking game based on slowly cutting up enemies and having to "feel the weight of flesh." In another game that's less action oriented (maybe like in a survival horror game with melee-based combat), that sort of mechanic might be fitting, but in a Ninja Gaiden game that just seems plain stupid.

Anyway, I agree with you about NGB having excellent AI, especially for the genre. It's always refreshing to see enemies use tactics to try and bring you down rather than just rushing you in a straight line or hiding behind cover.

Yeah, I like how the AI play to the strengths of the game's combat and how it forces you to play a bit strategically, or on pure skill and reflexes if you're good enough since the game is less about combo-ing your enemies into the air and more about skillfully evading them and finding the right opportunity to attack. Needless to say I like both types of gameplay quite a lot, but surprisingly enough I actually prefer the one that forces you to evade and use as much defense as offense over the one in which you are just mainly being offensive.

[Foggle]

Yeah, this sounds more sadistic than hardcore. (This from the guy who replaced all the blood in NG 2 with pink disco lights?) I guess we'll see how it plays out; it might work well, after all.

Yeah, I like how the AI play to the strengths of the game's combat and how it forces you to play a bit strategically, or on pure skill and reflexes if you're good enough since the game is less about combo-ing your enemies into the air and more about skillfully evading them and finding the right opportunity to attack. Needless to say I like both types of gameplay quite a lot, but surprisingly enough I actually prefer the one that forces you to evade and use as much defense as offense over the one in which you are just mainly being offensive.

This reminds me of something I hate about most hack n slash games, like, say, Monster Hunter. They want you to use strategy to beat your enemies, but your attacks and combos drag out for long periods of time and, even when you aren't mid-attack, the dodging is extremely hard to pull off (I don't remember if you could block in that game, but if you could, it was absolutely worthless). Pretty much every boss is a damage sponge and can off you in a couple of hits. There's also a time limit, and you can't pause the game. I'll get a lot of flack for this, but the game's slow pace and insurmountable difficulty just puts me to sleep. I know that it is technically possible to become good at the game, but I just don't have the resolve to try, especially when I could be playing something fast and exciting like NG or DMC instead.

Being strategic is both more gratifying and more plausible in fast-paced games like Ninja Gaiden. Every stylish kill brings me satisfaction rather than relief.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Well, yeah, one of the things I like about NG that I haven't noticed too much in other games is that you can often-times use your environment to your advantage. Like, for example, at one point in chapter 2 of NG2 when you're fighting in a courtyard, you can position yourself behind a well-placed tree that blocks/obscures the view of the archers on the other side. The archers will stay where they are and for the most part won't be able to hit you from the position that they are angled at, whereas the melee weapon ninjas will rush in and try to attack you, allowing you to take them out without worrying about getting shot from off-screen, and then going to deal with the archers themselves after the rest of the enemies are dealt with. Another example of a good strategy in Chapter 11 in which you can take out the archers up on the archer towers and then platform up to one of those towers, and then the plethora of IS ninjas that spawn and attack you after that have to jump up like that as well, but can only come in one at a time, allowing you to take them out easily (and the rest of the IS ninjas can't hit you since the tower perfectly shields you from oncoming projectile attacks. I really like that element of gameplay.

And, I agree, I just can't get into slow-paced hack n' slash games. I mean, in some cases they can be extremely fun if they give you a ton of ways to kill enemies and stuff (such as in MadWorld), but in games like Ninja Blade or Dante's Inferno, the combat just feels so slow-paced and dull, with very little variety to it.

[Foggle]

Seems Hayashi is all for the blood now.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I find it funny how he criticized Itagaki for making NG2 too violent and now he's essentially marketing NG3 purely off of blood and gore. Fucking hypocrite....

The trailer does kind of piss me off, though. Now it'll just draw in more attacks from NG-haters about how this series is "for brain-dead players who just want a mindless gore fest with boobies in it."

Oh well, at any rate, being the attentive NG-fanatic that I am, I immediately noticed that Ryu wasn't using his Dragon Sword to sword-fuck whatever poor enemy he decided to strike when they were down....multiple times, over and over again. In fact, he didn't even have his DS with him. Instead he is using a particularly cool weapon that he got from a certain someone in NG2. I'll give bonus points to Foggle if he knows what I'm talking about.

[Foggle]

I don't really remember. I need to go back through that game soon.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Its like....the last weapon that you get in the game. After you beat Genshin for the 4th time he gives it to you and finally admits his defeat before he dies....you disappoint me, Foggle........

[Foggle]

STOP! SHITSTORM TIME!

Choice quotes:

Ninja Gaiden II is already outdated

Bayonetta is old, game design wise, already

Difficulty level is not the main element we are focusing on

we are fine not focusing on difficulty level. We don't care.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Bayonetta has sold millions. I guess people like "dated" design more than he realizes.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Ninja Gaiden Black is still my favorite action game of all-time, I really enjoy Bayonetta, and NG2 isn't perfect but what has Hayashi himself ever made -you know, "himself," without remaking Itagaki's game - that "out-dates" it, or any other game, for that matter?

You want to know what pisses me off the most about this statement? For all of his talking about wanting to cater to the fans, he probably just pissed 99% of them off with his "we don't care about the difficulty" statement. That, and his comments on Bayonetta will now attract even more unfair flaming towards the 3D NG games (the good ones, at least), no doubt easily causing the NG fan-base even more annoyance in dealing with haters, in that regard.

Oh well, fuck NG3. I'm happy with my "outdated" NGB and NG2 as it is. But thanks anyways, Hayashi.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Here's an interesting discussion question:

What do you guys think are sound complaints about the 3D NG games? And by contrast, what do you think are unfair or biased complaints about the series?

An example for the latter question would be of people complaining about the fact that the new games aren't at all like the NES games in terms of how they play (which is retarded because of course they'd have to play much differently as modern 3D games), but also in terms of not really having anything to do with the story of the NES games (which I personally never cared about because the story is shit in any NG game, though ironically I think the 1st Ninja Gaiden on the XBOX actually had a relatively decent story compared to the NES games and especially NG2 for the XBOX360).

Also, I've always wondered what people here think about Itagaki. Does the guy get more hate than he deserves or is it completely justified?

I'll answer this question right away, and I'll even go so far as to claim this as pretty much fact no matter how much anyone wants to argue:

Itagaki is cocky and has an arrogant attitude? And you know what, so does just about every other popular game developer out there, including people like Kamiya among Japanese developers (who does make great games and is probably a better designer) and Cliff Blezinski, and a bunch of other designers who make bold claims about their games. Miyamoto and Tim Schafer are perhaps the only 2 modest game developers that I know of.

To be honest, though, anyone with any common sense in the business should be more like that as opposed to not showing any confidence, as after all if you're not confident in your products than why should other people be? Here is what makes Itagaki different from the rest, though. Way back in 2000 the makers of Tekken insulted DOA for no real reason, but since Tekken is a more loved fighting series on the whole in terms of better mechanics or whatever, people felt it was justified. Itagaki retaliated by saying that Tekken was shit and then people hated him, and consequently Team Ninja ever since then, and from that time whether other people realize it or not there has always been bias against him that has spread, since occasionally he will insult other games (like Heavenly Sword....and who wouldn't get pissed at him for insulting such a "brilliant" game that deserves all the praise in the world ). Also, to be perfectly honest, I'm pretty sure Itagaki is smarter than he lets on, in that he knows that talking the way he does will get a rise out of people attracting more attention to him and by consequence giving his game more exposure, which is a pretty smart move, since apparently even if people hate him they still buy his games (and trust me, I know a lot of people who are fans of DOA and NG who love those games but despite Itagaki himself).

To be honest, though, people always conveniently ignore the numerous times when he's not an ass-hole, which is actually 90% of the time when he's acting completely normal. I suppose it doesn't matter to anyone that he has praised games like God of War (which surprises even me) and cited Ocarina of Time as one of his favorite games and biggest influences in developing the 3D Ninja Gaiden games, as well as Virtua Figher as his primarily influence to develop fighting games.

In terms of whether he can back up his bold claims, I'd say its up to opinions. I never cared for his DOA games, myself, but if they have managed to get the high review scores that they have gotten and have each sold millions, obviously they can't be that terrible, and must mean more to some people. As for the NG games, though, I would argue that they are clear proof that this guy knows how to make a great action game, personally.

Anyways, those are my thoughts on the guy. Is he arrogant? Yes, but in all fairness I can find just as many examples of various other developers being just as arrogant. What I think matters is whether he can justify his arrogance through great games, in which even just NGB alone is enough for me to make a good case for him.

Oh, and one more question:

How do you guys feel that the 3D NG games stack up to other hack n' slash games, and also action games in general?

I'll answer this one myself pretty briefly:

They certainly haven't changed anything like how DMC1 created a whole new genre (or what I still call a sub-genre/class), but in all honesty I feel more games should follow some of NG's better points, such as the combat and actually having intelligent enough enemies to try and actually kill the player rather than just standing around and waiting to get offed by a combo.

Also, other games need to follow how NGB does harder difficulty settings. Seriously, those difficulties that come after you get done with Normal mode are really what put that game above so many others for me.

I think if I had to look at things as objectively as possible (though, no matter what anyone else says, these matters are almost entirely subjective), then Bayonetta would probably be the best hack n' slash game so far, but even then I'd still argue that NGB is objectively superior to most other hack n' slash games even out today in terms of both its combat, design, and content. Maybe I'd have to rank God of War higher, though, just because it has better graphics and story or something like that, and DMC because it helped pave the way for other hack n' slash games.

But in terms of both challenge and fun, NG is honestly my favorite.