Things That Don't Bother You About Gaming

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Well, IDK, I think the writer of that response is being a bit hypocritical and making REALLY broad generalizations for Japanese games. I mean, he admits that Western games can suck too but then he goes into how a lot of modern Japanese games baby the gamers by making the experience all-inclusive at the expense of dumbing down the depth of the experience, yet at the same time I have to question just what Western games he's been playing because last time I checked a lot of modern Western games are guilty of doing the exact same thing.

I do agree with some of his points, though, but I'm not a fan of the "Japanese games are behind Western games and Japan needs to pick up the slack" attitude, simply because I find Western games to be just as guilty of doing the same things people are accusing Japanese games of doing now, yet the Western games seem to get away with it. I talked about this more and gave my reasoning on my post in the "Things That Bother You About Gaming" thread, so you can look at it there, but I just find that modern gaming in general shares a lot of the problems that this writer is saying that many Japanese games have, and I don't consider a lot of these issues exclusive to just Japan. I just feel that games should be judged on their own merits, anyways. I really couldn't care less where they come from. That is to say, if Ninja Gaiden Black were the exact same game as it is today except just made by a Western developer, it'd still be my favorite game of all time. The same goes for something like Max Payne if it were made in Japan or in some other country, I like the game because its great, not because of where it comes from.

[Foggle]

He's criticizing Japanese games for having slow and clunky interfaces and overly drawn-out tutorials, something which I haven't seen much in western games this gen outside of Bethesda's stuff (but I have seen a lot of in Japanese ones). East and west baby gamers in completely different ways; Japanese games usually slow down the experience while western games generally completely dumb everything down so as to make it all way too easy.

I do agree with some of his points, though, but I'm not a fan of the "Japanese games are behind Western games and Japan needs to pick up the slack" attitude, simply because I find Western games to be just as guilty of doing the same things people are accusing Japanese games of doing now, yet the Western games seem to get away with it.

But he's not doing that, he's accusing Japanese games of doing something western games don't often do. He is a Japanese game developer, so he's more likely to talk about the scene in his own country. He states clearly that neither country's games are the better than the other's.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

He's criticizing Japanese games for having slow and clunky interfaces and overly drawn-out tutorials, something which I haven't seen much in western games this gen outside of Bethesda's stuff (but I have seen a lot of in Japanese ones). East and west baby gamers in completely different ways; Japanese games usually slow down the experience while western games generally completely dumb everything down so as to make it all way too easy.

Once again, though, that's a huge generalization. I can think of a lot of Western games that "slow down the experience" in terms of replacing deep gameplay mechanics with scripted sequences that don't give you any real control over a situation and slow down the pacing of the game (Uncharted, Call of Duty games, Gears of War, and even games that I really like such as Alan Wake are just a few examples of games that succumb to this issue). On the other hand, I can think of plenty of exceptions to this issue for Japanese games, like all of Platinum's output this gen, almost all of Nintendo's output this gen (though admittedly some of those games were outsourced to Western developers), Itagaki's games, pretty much all fighting games, and even a lot of Capcom's output like DMC4 (it was made easier, sure, but it didn't slow down the game with constant tutorials and such), Dragon's Dogma, and even other JRPGs like Demon's Souls and Dark Souls.

My point isn't to point in Japanese game's favor or discriminate against Western games. I just find this point to be kind of moot since its making a broad generalization and IMO I have seen just as many Western games as Japanese games (or at least it feels that way, relatively), that slow down the experience just to make things more friendly for the casual gamer.

But he's not doing that, he's accusing Japanese games of doing something western games don't often do. He is a Japanese game developer, so he's more likely to talk about the scene in his own country. He states clearly that neither country's games are the better than the other's.

But the thing he's accusing Japanese games of doing isn't something that I think is more exclusive to Japanese games. That was my disagreement with his point to begin with. This whole "friction" thing that he brings up can just as easily be applied to a lot of Western games as well. That's the point I was trying to make.

[Foggle]

Ooo, good point about scripted sequences. I was thinking more about stuff like MadWorld's pointlessly long and boring tutorial and, on the extreme end, the first 12 hours of Final Fantasy 13. The generalization probably fits better in Japan with all their shovelware that's never even made it to the States (and vice-versa where they don't get our most generic, dumbed-down garbage). So Japanese developers probably don't know about how bad a good portion of western games really are, which is why I think it makes sense for him to assess the games in his own country instead of western stuff.

But then you get all those American assholes like Phil Fish who completely ruin my argument. The industry really does hate Japan for no reason these days.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Yeah, I can understand some of the complaints, but the thing I hate about most criticisms of Japanese games from a good portion of Western gamers is that a lot of those criticisms are really hypocritical. Its like people just take a few popular examples from AAA Japanese games that succumb to the problems that they are pointing out and then blow up those arguments to apply to Japanese games in general, yet at the same time I see games like Gears of War redoing the same tricks that we've seen so many times in TPS games this generation and just presenting it with a big budget (which obviously most Japanese developers simply don't have the luxury of being able to afford), and yet it gets praised up the wazoo by critics and gamers alike. I just can't figure where this bias towards Japanese games came from. I'm not saying that games should be excused for poor design just because they are from Japan, but they shouldn't be held up to some insane standards that people are making up while a ton of Western games guilty of plenty of their own problems get the pass so easily.

Then again, that's more of a problem that I have with gamers and video game critics than I do with the games themselves. I still feel like the modern gaming age has had a lot of games dumbed down (regardless of where they come from), but I don't mind it so much as long as there are still plenty of great games for me to choose from that can hold my interest and cater to my tastes, and thankfully right now there are.

[Rynnec]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixZU1hMh8ro&list=UUkHquxxDre50KXtjJFZjMUw&index=1&feature=plcp

Couldn't have gotten the point across better myself.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Super Mario Galaxy 2 had less tutorial than Super Mario Galaxy 1, and it's a much harder game. Though yes Skyward Sword had that issue, it's like the only Nintendo game with that issue this generation.

I dunno, this really seems like a problem of certain Japanese developers. Nowhere near consensus.

[Foggle]

Super Mario Galaxy 2 had less tutorial than Super Mario Galaxy 1, and it's a much harder game. Though yes Skyward Sword had that issue, it's like the only Nintendo game with that issue this generation.

I dunno, this really seems like a problem of certain Japanese developers. Nowhere near consensus.

He says that Nintendo doesn't do it in his post.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Super Mario Galaxy 2 had less tutorial than Super Mario Galaxy 1, and it's a much harder game. Though yes Skyward Sword had that issue, it's like the only Nintendo game with that issue this generation.

I dunno, this really seems like a problem of certain Japanese developers. Nowhere near consensus.

He says that Nintendo doesn't do it in his post.

I don't get when Nintendo went from being the developer everyone tried to better to the one being the most successful that everyone refuses to even try to copy. That's why I was eager to see a Platinum/Nintendo game since they seem to share the same idea of getting you into the game ASAP and having fun. Western developers do it too, but I also remember Halo 1's tutorial amounted to little more than "Turn your head, would you like to reverse axis? Let's go" then the game started. And Halo was also not an easy game.

I also remember a long time ago when "Tutorial" was an option on the main menu screen. IMO, that's the way it should return to being. Putting it in the main game is annoying.

I also which health bars would return, but that's seemingly an impossible dream.

[Foggle]

I also remember a long time ago when "Tutorial" was an option on the main menu screen. IMO, that's the way it should return to being. Putting it in the main game is annoying.

I love that. Platinum actually does it that way now (Vanquish and Anarchy Reigns).

[Spark Of Spirit]

I also remember a long time ago when "Tutorial" was an option on the main menu screen. IMO, that's the way it should return to being. Putting it in the main game is annoying.

I love that. Platinum actually does it that way now (Vanquish and Anarchy Reigns).

And I actually used that tutorial!

And I quit when I got the gist of it!

It's the simple things, really.

[Foggle]

I really hope they handle the tutorial in a similar way for Metal Gear Rising. MG 1 and MGS 1 didn't even have tutorials, but we all still got through them okay!

Developers really underestimate gamers these days. How hard is it to open the manual or options screen to look at key bindings? That's the first thing I do in any game! I mean, obviously, more complex games do need tutorial segments, but a normal FPS or platformer? Naaaah.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I dunno. But I think most people are getting too used to being handed everything. I mean, there's no real punishment for dying in most games anymore, there's tutorials in the main game, almost everything is scripted to rails, and everything is usually done in under 8 hours. Developers sort of painted themselves into a corner now, where the "Hardcore gamers" are actually just casual gamers with more time on their hands.

Meanwhile, those who grew up with games like Super Mario Bros. or DOOM feel a bit left out. Instead of catering games to audiences, they need to go back to making them for everyone again. Everyone means more options so anyone can play the way they want. Even id lost that with Rage.

[Foggle]

Did you watch that Dishonored footage I linked to? Looks like it has something in it for everyone.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Did you watch that Dishonored footage I linked to? Looks like it has something in it for everyone.

It looks interesting, and I've been hearing some good buzz on it. I kind of wish they would have waited for "next-gen" though, it seems like the type of game that would benefit from having more tech behind it.

I like that the enemies aren't "too smart" and that they don't seem to just know where you are when you step over an invisible line, and I like how there's a lot of options. Is that a health bar?