Story Arcs

[Foggle]

Sounds like Togashi pulled a Hannibal Rising on his publisher.

[Spark Of Spirit]

But remember what he did write after Chapter Black. It was the Three Kings arc.

You missed my point, though. I'm aware that he wrote this after Chapter Black. I'm also aware that he wanted to end the series at that point due to disagreements with his editor, hence the whole part of my previous post saying that he was purposely making the Three Kings arc bad. I'm saying that he he was actually trying, he could have potentially made the arc go into an all-out war and he had the writing talent to deal with that. The difference is that with the Three Kings arc we got, he was purposely writing ad material because he knew it would get his series canceled. If it weren't for the fact that Jump authors are contractually obligated to keep running their series until the editorial staff deems that it needs to be canceled due to a lack of popularity, he probably would have just stopped the series after the Chapter Black arc, which probably would have been best for everyone, but since he was obligated to put out more chapters, he just wrote whatever crap came to him mind and didn't actually bother to make sure it was good. Basically, if his heart was actually in his work and he legitimately wanted to continue the series, then he was most certainly talented enough at that time to do it the right way.

I'm not so certain if he would have made it a war that it would have fixed any of the problems of his writing with idiotic plot twists, sudden jump cuts in story, and a totally out of character ending for about every character. Just making it a war wouldn't have made those problems go away, I think.

Honestly, I believe the ending we got was as good as we could get considering.

See, that's the part I don't agree with. You seem to forget that Togashi wasn't trying at that time. He was still a talented writer, and when I said that he was hot of the heels of the Chapter Black arc, that indicates that he was a writer who could churn out good material when he wanted to. If his editors had just let him take a personal break like he wanted, and he came back and wrote with a full passion for what he was doing, then the arc would have been great. All of these issues that you talk about are stuff that he never did until Hunter X Hunter, anyways. Those problems didn't really plague the Three Kings arc. That arc was just a result of general laziness. The point is, when it came to his actual "genuine" writing, and not his fake stuff like with the Three Kings arc, he was a VERY different writer in both style and substance, at that time.

If your general point is that if Togashi was trying he would have made Three Kings good, then I understand your point. But I don't think a war wouldn't have been all that interesting, to be honest. I tend to think that if he would have been trying the execution would have been close to what we got from the anime with maybe a few differences. That's the impression that I get since Togashi seems to have some sort of interaction with those who adapt his work.

However, at the same time I think he could have just as easily made it a war instead of a tournament and did something even worse. Maybe end it with Kuwabara flying on a magic carpet lopping off Hiei's head because he was secretly plotting world domination and the Jigan eye was an alien implantation?  Yes, he could have done something great, but I had the feeling that Three Kings was meant like an epilogue to the story like it was in the anime and not the climax which explains why it isn't as high octane as Chapter Black or the Dark Tournament or even the Spirit Detective arcs in not only the manga (when he tried focusing) but also the anime.

The only point I have is that I think the anime's ending is about as good as the series could hope for. I don't think it was ever meant to be epic.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Sounds like Togashi pulled a Hannibal Rising on his publisher.

If Hannibal Rising was a big "fuck you" to the author's editorial staff, then yes, that's what Togashi essentially did. But the downside is that it was also a "fuck you" to fans of YYH.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

The only point I have is that I think the anime's ending is about as good as the series could hope for. I don't think it was ever meant to be epic.

I can agree with that point. Togashi never seems to be as concerned as other authors in trying to make the endings to his arcs feel epic. He tends to try and come up with more thoughtful conclusions to his stories (mostly), which explains why YNC didn't end with a big battle, but with both opposing sides kind of getting screwed over in some way (which I thought was a fucking brilliant way to end the arc, I might add), and how despite the faults with the Chimera Ant arc, it actually ended on a surprisingly calm and subdued note, contrary to its horribly violent beginning. I kind of find that refreshing, myself, as so many authors are too hellbent on trying to make some epic battle out of an ending to a major arc that they have going to the point of making the story and/or characters way too convoluted just for the sake of trying to make everything feel grand and resolute. In Togashi's case, his endings at least always make sense based on the characters and the situations that they are involved in.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Sounds like Togashi pulled a Hannibal Rising on his publisher.

If Hannibal Rising was a big "fuck you" to the author's editorial staff, then yes, that's what Togashi essentially did. But the downside is that it was also a "fuck you" to fans of YYH.

At least we don't have to wait ten years to see if Yusuke will finally be able to reach an island.

[Foggle]

Sounds like Togashi pulled a Hannibal Rising on his publisher.

If Hannibal Rising was a big "fuck you" to the author's editorial staff, then yes, that's what Togashi essentially did. But the downside is that it was also a "fuck you" to fans of YYH.

Allegedly, the film producers begged Thomas Harris to write a Silence of the Lambs sequel, so he wrote Hannibal to be as stupid as possible in hopes that it would kill interest in the series. However, they were able to salvage the movie adaptation more or less, and again they begged him to write a prequel. He refused, but they said they'd just get someone else to write it if he wouldn't, and thus the abomination that is Hannibal Rising was born.

[Spark Of Spirit]

The only point I have is that I think the anime's ending is about as good as the series could hope for. I don't think it was ever meant to be epic.

I can agree with that point. Togashi never seems to be as concerned as other authors in trying to make the endings to his arcs feel epic. He tends to try and come up with more thoughtful conclusions to his stories (mostly), which explains why YNC didn't end with a big battle, but with both opposing sides kind of getting screwed over in some way (which I thought was a fucking brilliant way to end the arc, I might add), and how despite the faults with the Chimera Ant arc, it actually ended on a surprisingly calm and subdued note, contrary to its horribly violent beginning. I kind of find that refreshing, myself, as so many authors are too hellbent on trying to make some epic battle out of an ending to a major arc that they have going to the point of making the story and/or characters way too convoluted just for the sake of trying to make everything feel grand and resolute. In Togashi's case, his endings at least always make sense based on the characters and the situations that they are involved in.

That's one of the reasons I enjoy his work. The resolutions always involve more than punching the bad guy through a building after a corny speech then never hearing about him again.

For all the guff I give Chimera Ant, I think the ending is some of his best work.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

For all the guff I give Chimera Ant, I think the ending is some of his best work.

Spoiler

"I can assure you, it's your victory" - Meruem

That's essentially what the main villain said to Palm after asking for the location of Komugi. Its so funny because while I've heard that kind of line from other shonen villains before, they were never in the same position as Meruem. Sure, Meruem was slowly dying from the poison in his body, but he could have EASILY just killed off the entire rest of the cast if he had wanted to. But the thing is, he didn't want to. When he realized that he and his royal guards were dying, all he thought about was what he really cared to do before he died, and the thing that he wanted to do most was play against Komugi again and try and overcome her skills. It showed so much that the had grown as a character. I mean, considering that he used to be a guy that killed random little girls just on a whim (that scene still irks me to no end), he had really come a long way in terms of the value he had gained for human life by finding someone that he actually cared about on some level. To me, it was almost as if Meruem represented Togashi. As a writer, Togashi had the power to do whatever the fuck he wanted with these characters like a God of the entire world that he created, but instead he matured as the arc progressed and realized what was really important in life....Then he fucked things up by killing off Killua's butler for no reason, but keeping that aside, yeah, I absolutely loved the actual conclusion to the Chimera Ant arc.

[close]

[Spark Of Spirit]

For all the guff I give Chimera Ant, I think the ending is some of his best work.

Spoiler

"I can assure you, it's your victory" - Meruem

That's essentially what the main villain said to Palm after asking for the location of Komugi. Its so funny because while I've heard that kind of line from other shonen villains before, they were never in the same position as Meruem. Sure, Meruem was slowly dying from the poison in his body, but he could have EASILY just killed off the entire rest of the cast if he had wanted to. But the thing is, he didn't want to. When he realized that he and his royal guards were dying, all he thought about was what he really cared to do before he died, and the thing that he wanted to do most was play against Komugi again and try and overcome her skills. It showed so much that the had grown as a character. I mean, considering that he used to be a guy that killed random little girls just on a whim (that scene still irks me to no end), he had really come a long way in terms of the value he had gained for human life by finding someone that he actually cared about on some level. To me, it was almost as if Meruem represented Togashi. As a writer, Togashi had the power to do whatever the fuck he wanted with these characters like a God of the entire world that he created, but instead he matured as the arc progressed and realized what was really important in life....Then he fucked things up by killing off Killua's butler for no reason, but keeping that aside, yeah, I absolutely loved the actual conclusion to the Chimera Ant arc.

[close]

Well, yeah the other "endings" (Gon, Killua's butler, Knuckle and his friends pushed to the side, Ging) were not all too good, but the villain's resolution was really good. Even if I still think he came on WAY too strong in the early parts of the manga, the final bits of his story were pretty good.

[talonmalon333]

Maybe Togashi should've just found a way to end YYH with Chapter Black.

[LumRanmaYasha]

Maybe Togashi should've just found a way to end YYH with Chapter Black.

That's what he wanted to do, but the higher ups at Shonen Jump made him continue, so in retaliation he consciously sabotaged his manga with the Three Kings arc in order to get it canned.

[talonmalon333]

Maybe Togashi should've just found a way to end YYH with Chapter Black.

That's what he wanted to do, but the higher ups at Shonen Jump made him continue, so in retaliation he consciously sabotaged his manga with the Three Kings arc in order to get it canned.

I know. I just said that out of being miserable.

Still, I wonder how YYH would've ended if Chapter Black was the final season. I think that could make for a good discussion here.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Maybe Togashi should've just found a way to end YYH with Chapter Black.

That's what he wanted to do, but the higher ups at Shonen Jump made him continue, so in retaliation he consciously sabotaged his manga with the Three Kings arc in order to get it canned.

I know. I just said that out of being miserable.

Still, I wonder how YYH would've ended if Chapter Black was the final season. I think that could make for a good discussion here.

I think the only big difference would have been Raizen's removal from the story. Otherwise the arc would have been unchanged.

As it is though, I don't think the ending would have been as good unless Yusuke voluntarily left his home and came back again. If it had ended at Chapter Black we probably wouldn't have gotten that.

[Daxdiv]

Sounds like Togashi pulled a Hannibal Rising on his publisher.

If Hannibal Rising was a big "fuck you" to the author's editorial staff, then yes, that's what Togashi essentially did. But the downside is that it was also a "fuck you" to fans of YYH.

Allegedly, the film producers begged Thomas Harris to write a Silence of the Lambs sequel, so he wrote Hannibal to be as stupid as possible in hopes that it would kill interest in the series. However, they were able to salvage the movie adaptation more or less, and again they begged him to write a prequel. He refused, but they said they'd just get someone else to write it if he wouldn't, and thus the abomination that is Hannibal Rising was born.

I could have sworn that you explained this scenario somewhere else on the board a long time ago.

[Dr. Insomniac]

Sounds like Togashi pulled a Hannibal Rising on his publisher.

If Hannibal Rising was a big "fuck you" to the author's editorial staff, then yes, that's what Togashi essentially did. But the downside is that it was also a "fuck you" to fans of YYH.

Allegedly, the film producers begged Thomas Harris to write a Silence of the Lambs sequel, so he wrote Hannibal to be as stupid as possible in hopes that it would kill interest in the series. However, they were able to salvage the movie adaptation more or less, and again they begged him to write a prequel. He refused, but they said they'd just get someone else to write it if he wouldn't, and thus the abomination that is Hannibal Rising was born.

I could have sworn that you explained this scenario somewhere else on the board a long time ago.

...we've entered an endless recursion of time!!