Battle Shonen Stuff

[Spark Of Spirit]

The power level thing in DB was kind of thrown out when Vegeta kept beating people who were supposed to be just plain better than him over and over again even though everyone kept using the scouters. But that doesn't stop the countless manga variations of "He's just on another level!" and it always means that unless you are Super Important Character A, you can't even scratch the overpowered character.

It's just so boring to see this over and over again, because there is no interesting way to beat characters like that except training after losing to the character and then beating the character with newly acquired strength. It's just old to me.

[LumRanmaYasha]

Yeah, there are just some mangaka that are just total misses to me. As much as I might not like the whole boring tourny/training/level up formula in a lot of shonen, I dislike the grimdark crap far more.

Just because you make everyone moody, show lots of blood and gore, and randomly kill "important" characters (but never the main character, because these types of manga have the WORST usage of plot armor in any kind of story) to show how "anything can happen!" does not rise you above the common shonen trope. I fact, it makes you worse. I have never read or seen a GOOD grimdark shonen and I probably never will. They just have some of the worst issues in any genre.

The dialogue is still cliche (only darker!), the story is still unoriginal (but darker!), and the characters are still unlikable (but darker!) but are far less enjoyable than something like Black Clover because Black Clover for all its faults is only trying to be fun. It's not pretending to be what it's not and hiding behind trappings to hide that it's really no more original than Hitman Reborn when all is said and done and not some deep epic tale of whatever pretentious crap the main character moodily monologues about in between whine-fests.

I really don't like that stuff.

I find that grimdark manga and comics, heck, just grimdark stuff in general, rarely tend to be good because they often seem to think their messages are smarter than they really are, and that their violent or shocking content equates them to being more mature and adult. Rather, their approach and outlook is often just immature and one-note, and the lack of levity and fun to balance them out just makes them less engaging and enjoyable to experience. I'll always appreciate a series that knows how to balance it's serious moments with light-hearted ones more than one that just attempts to be dark and grim and nothing else.

It's funny how so many shonen which took inspiration from DB by putting an over-emphasis on power-levels pretty much completely missed the point of them in the first place.

Power-levels always have been and always will be BS. Toroyama himself stated that characters won or lost fights depending on which outcome suited the story that he wanted to tell. If you pay attention, you'll notice that the idea of scouters and using power-levels to gauge an opponent's ability always became a weakness of the person using it, in the end. On several occasions, reading one of the heoroes' power levels only caused a villain to underestimate them and lose in the process, either because the hero was hiding his true strength, or because he used a clever strategy to overtake his opponent.

Hell, we even have a recent example of raw power being meaningless in certain situations. In DBZRF, written by Toriyama himself, Freeza is at first more powerful than Goku, but Goku overtakes him by dragging out the battle and forcing Freeza to burn most of his energy on useless attacks that Goku can just block or dodge. Then when Goku overtakes Freeza, the tables are turned again by having Freeza lure Goku into a trap and having one of his minions snipe him when his guard's down. In both instances, power levels didn't amount to jack shit.

And how about Gohan defeating Cell? The victory was ultimately decided by the help of his friends and Vegeta, since Gohan was crippled and severely weakened during their beam struggle.

And Goku vs. Kid Buu? The Universe would've been doomed without the help of Mr. Satan and all the people of Earth, who were individually weak, but combined were able to give Goku enough spirit energy to vanquish Buu once and for all. You can't exactly say that Goku won because of a higher power-level.

It's just bizarre how many fans there are of Dragon Ball who don't get the message that power alone doesn't ensure victory, and the writers who claim to be inspired by DB but focus purely on power-struggles in their battles must not have been paying attention to the above facts. There's a reason that scouters only have prevalence in two arcs in the entire series, and are no longer used by the time that the androids show up.

This is why I'm always bothered when people like, say, the WMR guys (especially RolloT), seem to think power levels defined all the fights in Dragon Ball. Literally, from the very first fight after their introduction in the battle with Raditz, scouters were shown to be useless in measuring the heroes' capabilities. Power levels were only ever useful in assessing the relative strength of the antagonists, since they couldn't control their power levels early on, and that gets thrown out the window as early as when Zarbon reveals to Vegeta that he can transform. DB might've introduced the concept of power levels, but it was never as power hierarchy focused as it's derivatives have been over the years.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

The power level thing in DB was kind of thrown out when Vegeta kept beating people who were supposed to be just plain better than him over and over again even though everyone kept using the scouters. But that doesn't stop the countless manga variations of "He's just on another level!" and it always means that unless you are Super Important Character A, you can't even scratch the overpowered character.

It's just so boring to see this over and over again, because there is no interesting way to beat characters like that except training after losing to the character and then beating the character with newly acquired strength. It's just old to me.

That's why Togashi is one of my favorite shonen mangaka. Raw power usually tends to mean very little on its own in both YYH and HXH. Characters win more often based on experience and strategy, rather than by some super punch or energy blast. The same could be said of JoJo's. It's not WHAT your power is that decides a battle, but rather HOW good a character is at using that specific type of power.

[Spark Of Spirit]

The only times in YYH that power mattered was Team Toguro. And Togashi instantly changed gears when the first opponent our heroes fought after a monstrous hulking mass of muscle is a geeky honors student with no physical strength at all. And he could have just as easily killed Team Urameshi as Toguro could have.

I didn't say Three Kings because despite the whole training and tournament aspect of the arc, that wasn't the point of it. Though Togashi missed it in the manga, the anime showed that Yusuke was destined for more than fighting and ruling the world with strength, and that's why it ended with him losing and finally realizing where his home was and staying there with his family and friends. It was something he'd been trying to accept since he first died in chapter one but had troubles accepting it throughout the series. The arc was basically an epilogue to the main story capping of Yusuke, Kurama, and Hiei's character development. Everything else going on was just in the background.

Also, in Dragon Ball, remember that Krillin, of all characters, could have killed someone like Nappa or Frieza with his attack and they were much stronger than him at the time. And he almost did it, too.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

CX: I agree. That criticism of DB always bugs me. I feel that sometimes when a series becomes so big and influences tons of cheap immitators, the faults of those latter series running with annoying tropes ends up getting associated with the more popular series, even if it wasn't really guilty of mishandling such tropes in the first place.

This is no different from how NGE has its critics for the characters being "emo" and ultimately unlikable and one-dimensional....but that's not really true, and I saw how unwarranted most criticisms of that series were when I finally watched it for myself. It was the poor immitators that got it wrong, but the criticisms got stuck to the bigger target, regardless.

It's also the same reason that a game series like Halo gets bashed as a mindless run-and-gun affair that spawned a plethora of boring, uninspired FPS clones. The part about crappy generic FPS games becoming a popular trend may he true, but the Halo games that inspired it are actually very nuanced in their mechanics and design, and became so popular in the first place because the games were good.

Sometimes people look at the bigger picture and completely miss the mark on what a big propertly was really like to begin with.

[Spark Of Spirit]

You know, I kind of wanted to write a post about My Hero Academia. This is mostly because I've seen in constantly dismissed as more shonen crap or whatever and how it will never compare to the latest grimdark seinen or the marvelous masterpiece that is Naruto. But it's also because I think it is a series that deserves its growing popularity. The anime should only cement it further when it comes out.

First, there's the setting. This is a world where anybody, literally anybody, can be a hero except a very tiny minority of people. Our main character is one of those without powers. Not only can he physically not become a hero, but he's a bit of a coward, and he only wants to be a hero because he thinks heroes are the coolest. Typical comic book geek, really. But Kohei Horikoshi makes one of the best choices in regards to a main character in a shonen that I haven't seen since, well, I can't even remember.

Izuku Midoriya is a wannabe with no great goal or noble dream except to, really, be cool like his hero All Might. But the first chapter makes a very stark difference between Midoriya and most any shonen protagonist in that he changes his goal in said first chapter. He saved a friend of his for the single reason that he knew that his friend was suffering and dying and he had to save him. No powers, no plan, no backup. He risks his life to do the right thing because that's what he had to do. This is the number one quality of being a hero, though it is taken for granted in MHA's world of hero careerism and the fact that everybody has a power ("quirk") of some kind. By chapter's end, he accepts the fact that he cannot be a hero because he will never have the ability to. It's the final confrontation with All Might that sold the series to me back when it started. All Might decides that he will give a piece of his own power (this has further implications we learn later) to Midoriya in order to make him the hero he deserves to be. This both shows All Might is a hero worth looking up to and that Midoriya is a protagonist that deserves being one.

This reward of his selfless sacrifice is what kicks off the series. Not a declaration to be the greatest X, not a flashy cool shonen battle scene, not any real hook at all except the main character getting a chance to be what he'd always wanted to be. And with that chapter, Midoriya's journey to being a real hero like All Might began.

Another interesting touch is how Horikoshi ties it in to the whole school setting that shonen appears to be stuck in these days. Simply by making it a school that trains heroes, Horikoshi is able to break from that mold while still having it at the same time. Nobody really gets stronger in MHA-- they get more proficient at what they already have. The classes teach them to be better heroes and to learn to use their powers better. It suits the main story and theme instead of being there because it has to be. For his first series to use a school as a setting, he does it surprisingly well.

Like I just mentioned, this isn't a manga about power levels. Some powers are better than others, but it's not a ticket to victory. Every fight and confrontation in MHA is won through brains and brawn and never just one or the other. They're always exciting to watch.

The characters, as well, are all very interesting and well worth following. Midoriya looks like he'll be the typical weakling cowardly shonen protagonist, but flips the script as soon as he is given the proper tools to succeed. As he grows, his initial cowardice grows out of him until

Spoiler

the most recent chapter with one of the most satisfying fights in the series where he shows no fear

[close]

and he understands his quirk better. Bakugo is initially one of those loud obnoxious characters who won't grow at all, unless you pay attention to the subtleties in his past and behavior. Yes, an angry explosive character gets better when you watch for subtle changes. Weird. Uraraka initially just wants to be a hero to help her family pay the bills until she sees heroes like All Might and even Midoriya in action which inspires to reach higher that before-- and she does. Then there's Todoroki who could easily be the grimdark joyless Sasuke of the series becomes a hero who catches your attention every time he shows up. And lastly, All Might, who could be little more than a joke character, comes into his own as he faces the limits of his own extraordinary power and how he teaches Midoriya and the students how to be better heroes. All Might is a true hero through and through, and he is one of the best mentor characters in recent memory. That doesn't even go into the supporting cast.

I guess the biggest negative I can say so far is that it's still a relatively new series and could very easily go off the rails like Naruto or Bleach did. It probably won't, since it doesn't have a power creep crutch to lean on, but we've only just barely managed to see the main storyline ahead of us. Up until this point its been a lot of character development and set up, but it has all been very rewarding to read. Only time will tell if Horikoshi can keep it up.

My defense of My Hero Academia is that it might be a shonen manga, but it absolutely deserves the popularity it is building up (It is already selling remarkably well here in NA) and is not just another Naruto. Not in execution or in quality, and both are very good things. If you want my honest opinion, Horikoshi is not only a better writer, artist, character designer, and storyteller, than Kishimoto, but he's also far better at pacing. And yes, way ahead of Kubo as well. He's also most likely going to have the superior anime adaption for his series on top of it. The most controversial thing I can say is that MHA is the first new shonen in a long time I can say I'm a fan of without embarrassment in some way (World Trigger would be another, but I started reading that later, even if it came out first) or having to make excuses for it.

Then there's the art.

Spoiler

[close]

As far as shonen goes, MHA pretty much encapsulates everything I enjoy. Here's hoping it only gets better.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Great post. I pretty much agree with all of it. Initially I was losing interest in the early part of the series because of the Sports Festival arc (which was thankfully kept short), but it really picked up again after that point. I like the first several chapters better for its genuinely good use of comedy, and the latter stuff better for its clever battles and surprisingly resonant story-telling. The villains are also a plus later on. For example, "Hero Killer" Stain is somewhat like a really deranged, psychotic, Sensui-type villain, in that he's got some pretty strong motives for hating how corrupt and impure the world of heroes has become, being treated more like a business and commodity in MHA's modern society, but goes about it in the wrong way by killing off notable leading figures in the world of heroes. Yet, much like Sensui, he acknowledges that he himself is flawed, but would gladly sacrifice himself for what he sees as a greater cause. And as proof of his conviction for his own ideals, he actually saves Midoriya despite having tried to kill his friends, since he judged him to be a "true hero" when he saw that despite opposing him, Midoriya fit his notions of what an ideal hero should strive to be. That makes him an interesting character, rather than a pretentious hypocrite like many other battle Shonen villains try to be when bad writers attempt to add depth to them.

This really is a much better version of Naruto. I know just the mere mention of that series is a turn-off for some, but it takes a similar concept and actually executes it well, IMO. Sure, the typical Shonen tropes are there, but just like any good classic, it really is the execution that matters. The tropes are cliche, but the way the series gives its spin on it feels unique, and above that, it just has so much heart to it.

And on the subject of being a better version of Naruto, Todoroki goes right up there with Kurapika from HXH as how to do a character with a dark or troubled background the right way. Unlike Sasuke, he isn't an anti-social, self-pitying jerk who the author expects us to like and relate to just because he has cool attacks and whatnot. While he seemingly starts out that way, his character arc quickly has him develop into a strong supporting character who becomes the highlight of many parts of the series. The friendship that he forms with Midoriya in which they each have each others' backs feels genuine and makes you actually give a shit about him. I've never understood how anyone could be a fan of Sasuke, but if one of his fans were to ask me to actually point out how to do this character type better, Todoroki would be among the first examples that I would reference them to.

Also, as Desensitized already showcased, the way that the cover-art pays tribute to the style of American superhero comics is really spectacular.

[Spark Of Spirit]

The way he manages to take the best parts of shonen and combine them with the best parts of superhero comics is really stellar, but the most surprising thing here is how he handles battles.

For one, they all feel very organic to the story, never coming out of nowhere to hold up the story. But the other is very telling if you compare it to the mess that Bleach is right now. He doesn't take more than a couple of chapters for battles, yet he still manages to make them exciting and just as important to the story. The most recent fight is one of the best fights I've seen in a manga recently and it was literally two chapters long. And part of the first chapter wasn't focused on his battle. It's a bit hard to imagine these days, but not only does he do it, the readers frequently rank the series near the top despite how it dodges a lot of modern battle manga issues.

I'm trying to think of the last battle manga which has better pacing and the closest thing I can think of is Bakuman. Weird comparison, but it is high praise.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I'm starting to feel like Flame of Recca's two versions are becoming good examples of showing the difference between good and bad shonen.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

So, I had an epic post that I was working on for this thread, and I put a lot of time and work and passion into it. I was almost done and then I had to take a break for a second to help out with something. When I opened my computer again everything had been shut down and there was no way for me to restore the post that I had spent a literal hour working on.

God I fucking hate my piece of shit laptop.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Ah crap. Hope you can get it it back. This is one of my favorite threads on the board.

[LumRanmaYasha]

Darn, sorry dude. I hate it when that happens. Hopefully you can find time to rewrite that post.

I'm glad to see the thread renamed, btw. That "plethora of bad stuff" moniker reflected a pessimism that I feel most of us have moved past now that things have really picked up for the genre again.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Darn, sorry dude. I hate it when that happens. Hopefully you can find time to rewrite that post.

I'm glad to see the thread renamed, btw. That "plethora of bad stuff" moniker reflected a pessimism that I feel most of us have moved past now that things have really picked up for the genre again.

Funny you mention that, because the whole theme of my post was how my outlook on the long-running serialized shonen series has changed greatly over the years, and how I reject that old notion of the genre at large being inherently a bad thing with just a few exceptions. I mean, yes, there are a lot of bad shonen. But there are a lot of bad stuff in EVERY genre in existence. It doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of good stuff as well. I came up with that title at a time (which is strangely enough not all that long ago) where I realized my love for lots of shonen series but felt somehow ashamed of liking what I liked because of how many anime and manga critics and snobs looked down on the genre. I was stuck in this weird phase of wanting to sound smart and credible and felt that admitting my outright passion for many series in the genre would make me look dumb.

Of course, looking back on all of that, I merely only feel stupid for even thinking that way, but I believe that many people go through phases like that in their life. The post itself was about all of the good stuff that the genre had to offer over the years, how we have recently experienced a new wave of excellent series, and how beyond its base appeal, any great shonen series is just as valuable a piece of good fiction as any other piece of entertainment. Much like how many people find fault with Alejandro González Iñárritu's comments on the Superhero blockbuster films of recent years being cultural genocide, my post was essentially one big antithesis to the notion that this genre was just the anime or manga equivalent of "junk food", a slapdash label which I've always detested and found to be untrue.

I put A LOT of work into that post and was pretty proud of it. Why couldn't I have taken just a few more minutes to finish it off before closing my laptop!?

[Spark Of Spirit]

I've mostly just accepted Shonen is the type genre I like most in manga and anime. Sure I can watch a Seinen or Shojo, but they mostly have to be at Urasawa, Vinland Saga, or My Love Story, level for me to get into it. Shonen is different. Unless it's insultingly stupid, I can read or watch most Shonen and be greatly entertained.

Like the comments about My Hero Academia being "generic", or Ushio & Tora being "dated", or Black Clover being a "Naruto rip off". I don't really care. Otaku can say what they want. I enjoy reading/watching them, I enjoy what they're offering, and I feel they do what they do really well. It's entertainment, and it's well done entertainment.

And yes, LumRanmaYasha is right. Shonen right now is at the best its been in years with a large number of quality series available. I now find myself seeing why it was I had lost so much interest in manga and anime (and still avoid the cliques and crowds) a few years back. That was because there just wasn't many good Shonen out there. That's not been the case over the last couple of years.

The "junk food" of anime/manga is moe. Not even sure how that's not obvious.

[LumRanmaYasha]

I've always been annoyed by people who dismiss shonen series as lesser than seinin, when there's about as much good quality works to be found in series aimed towards both demographics as there are poor ones, and that's no less true of their battle genres. Every piece of media can be categorized and broken down into tropes, but the best battle shonen know how to use the tropes and cliches inherent to the genre and twist them just enough with enough heart and character to make them compelling pieces of art and entertainment just as valuable as any intricate seinin thriller.

What I've really re-evaluated when it comes to long-manga shonen manga is to appreciate them less as a complete story but more like a television show. I prefer stories that feel like complete and fully realized beginning to end, and I still like those best, but I've become more able to appreciate the parts even if the sum doesn't totally add up. There will inevitably be peaks and valleys in any long running series, but just because a series might sour later on doesn't make the parts that were good any less so. Basically, I take back what I said before about not being able to recommend Kuroko to people on the grounds that the second half wasn't very good, and after re-visiting early Naruto, I found that I'd really underappreciated how the first few arc of the series had a genuinely interesting world, moral themes, team-based combat, and effective character development and that all still holds up. At the same time, I also now believe that a series can rebound or improve in quality over time. Boruto showed that there was still vitality left in the Naruto universe and characters to make a compelling story, and even though I couldn't care less about Nisekoi for the longest time, it really picked up and become one of my favorite manga to keep up with last year and will probably make my list this year as well. Long running manga fluctuating in quality one way or the other simply comes with the territory, and my mantra now is to just enjoy what's good when it's good and enjoy it for however long I'm able to.