Manga Mavericks

[LumRanmaYasha]

Great question! Good timing too, since we were just about to record our next episode. 

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

You know, despite being a podcast show exclusively about manga, the recent announcement of the DBS manga being licensed would also be a good opportunity to sneak in a couple of minutes worth of discussion on your thoughts on the current anime as well.

That is unless you already covered the announcement in the last episode and I just happened to miss it.

Though, on that subject, I am surprised at just how much people freaked out at Toyotaro for changing how some of the events of the Champa arc played out in the manga. While I question what the point of the manga is if the anime was already destined to move far ahead of it, I do feel like people should cut the guy put in charge of the manga a little break. I mean, he kind of has to change things up at least a little so that readers who already saw the anime and know what happens (as in, probably 100% of the people reading the manga) won't get bored reading something that's exactly the same as what they just saw.

However, this also brings up the interesting idea that I've seen others pitch: wouldn't it be more interesting if the manga just diverged completely in its own direction and tried to tackle story-lines, concepts, and ideas that the anime couldn't possibly cover with its set-up? Call it an alternate dimension if you want, but that would be an interesting way to get something fresh and new, and would give the manga a better justification to exist.

[LumRanmaYasha]

Funny you should mention that, because we actually discussed Super in the new episode we recorded today, which should be out next week. 

I would definitely be down for the Super manga doing it's own thing. I think it would be interesting to see two different takes of the storyline evolving from the same origin point, and it would give people more of an incentive to read it now that it's behind the anime again.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Just had a look over and the next episode is up.

Excellent Kenshin discussion. You basically summed up why it's my favorite shonen manga, and one of my favorite of all time.

I always thought the end of Shishio was that he was so poisoned with darkness, that falling into Hell Itself was still not enough to realize he was on the wrong path. He killed Yumi because he loved killing more than he loved the woman who loved him. He was off the deep end. The flipside is that his goal was to drag the world into Hell anyway. So, in a way, he won at the end.

Every character in Kenshin is just so fully developed that you could probably talk about all of them for hours.

[LumRanmaYasha]

Thanks! As you could tell, I got pretty passionate while discussing it. 

Shishio was incorrigible, so dead-set in his ways and beliefs that there was no way he'd ever be able to change the way Kenshin did. But what he represented - the resistance to change and mankind's desire for war and bloodshed - could be denied but never destroyed, so in a sense he lost the battle but not the war. And as an opportunist, death wasn't going to stop his ambitions, so taking over hell was a pretty logical next step for him when you think about it. 

As far as Yumi goes, I think they both mutually loved each other, but just like the rest of the Juppongatana Shishio saw her as a tool he could use and sacrifice when needed, and Yumi herself lived for Shishio's sake and died satisfied that she could be of use to him. In a sense, it was inevitable that Shishio was going to sacrifice Yumi at some point down the line and they both knew that; that's just how their relationship was. I really grew a better understanding of their relationship, and Shishio as a character, after reading those backstory chapters Watsuki published a few years back.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I just bought the first Vizbig, so I'll probably be re-reading it again. It's been so long.

Speaking of classics, the final Perfect Edition of Monster is out next week. Next time you record an episode, you might want to mention it's all out now. It really is a one of the best series Viz has ever put out here.

[Spark Of Spirit]

By the way, it is funny that you asserted that most mangaka's best series is their first one and you used Rumiko Takahashi and Akira Toriyama as examples. My favorite of theirs is Maison Ikkoku and Dragon Ball, neither of which is their first and are both regularly regarded as classics. And then there's Urasawa whose best series were nowhere near his first.

I think Watsuki has another classic in him. I just don't think he's tried for it yet. Gun Blaze West, in his own words, he literally put no thought into, Buso Renkin was more tribute than original series, and Embalming needed better editing and focus. I think if he buckles down and focuses, he could easily put out a series to match Kenshin.

[LumRanmaYasha]

Well, I mentioned them because my favorite works of Takahashi and Toriyama are their first works, Urusei Yatsura and Dr. Slump respectively. But "best" probably wasn't the right word to use, since there are plenty of mangaka whose best works are their later material. Rather, I feel that most mangaka's first works generally tend to be their most personal and creative, showing the most of their personality and what really interests the mangaka most as a writer and artist.

Watsuki's clearly not short of ideas and interests, and has plenty of talent in him to create another great series. It's hitting that sweet spot in creating and writing a fresh concept that he's really invested in and can develop organically like he did with Kenshin that's been his real challenge, but I'm hoping he'll find that balance this time around.

[LumRanmaYasha]

New episode! This week we run down a bunch of (mostly) Shonen Jump-related news with our first ever special guest! 

[Spark Of Spirit]

I don't think I've ever disagreed with a guest more, honestly.

The industry is different now. There is no change of "mentality" Jump can make to change with it. All they can do is run a series, hope it's a hit, and keep running it. There's nothing else they can do, and nothing else they should do. I'm not sure why this discussion needed to go on and on like this.

And all this started because of MHA. I dunno, he sounds like because MHA didn't knock his socks off in four volumes that there must be some kind of reason for it beyond his tastes. No dude, you just don't care for it. That made it even more obvious when you guys tried to ask him if he read the Stain arc and he ignored the question. He isn't interested in it even if it gets good.

He compares how rich Naruto is to the 4 volumes of MHA that he read and saying the latter hasn't shown anything yet. That might be fair from an enjoyment perspective, but not when you're trying to argue overall series quality. MHA is the best written thing Jump has had in years. It has great character development, excellent pacing, and intricate plotting. If you don't like any of that, fine. But don't try to act like the series is "missing" some intangible quality that Naruto had when Kishimoto's writing fell off a cliff before the time jump and never really recovered.

This might be overblown, but I'm a bit sick of the random criticism that MHA gets that frequently has nothing to do with writing, art, or ANYTHING the actual writer of the series is doing. Then you roll that in with Naruto and Bleach praise and I can't help but tilt my head.

But I do agree that they should be laxer on new serializations and allow series to grow fanbases. The last few years showed a far more ruthless Jump than it had been for a while, cutting almost everything that had come out incredibly fast. But recently, since certain series have been naturally ending, there hasn't been much in the way of cancellations. And I think it will be a loss when one of these new series gets canceled as it basically wiped Mononofu out of the magazine just for the possibility that it could have been more popular. Mononofu had potential to be a quiet hit. I agree, they shouldn't do that so much.

None of that has anything to do with My Hero Academia's quality, though.

Jump Giga is an experimental magazine. There's all kinds of weird stuff in there. There's nothing odd about a MHA spin-off being thrown in there, too. It has nothing to do with brand, but a random stab at approaching a potential audience toward the magazine. If it doesn't succeed, then whatever. I don't think Jump is expecting a huge hit out of it. They're just brand building. This whole discussion kind of makes no sense.

On a whole other subject, I'm glad Sunday's attempt at re-branding has been working out. Fujita's new series had a really solid start, making it high onto the charts, and the online initiative is a really great idea that can only expand their reach.

Sunday used to have a specific brand of more adventure oriented series which began to get lost around the time of the mid-'00s when they began to run harem and Jump-like series instead. Magi was the first series in a while to capture that spirit, and Silver Spoon did the same for slice of life, which explains their popularity. I could never see either of those in Jump or Magazine. Arata might have been there if its editor didn't mess with it so much. They needed to change the way they operated, and I'm glad they have.

I hope it gives them the success they deserve.

As for the Jump Starts, I want to believe in Red Sprite since I liked the art and action so much, but the story in the one-shot was kinda boring and generic. Which is kind of how I feel about the Promised Neverland. Good artist, but the story concept does nothing for me. As for the third series . . . well, no comment.

Then there's Bleach.

Yeah.

My friend used to be a Bleach mega-fan. He introduced it to me and I enjoyed what I read of it. Until Hueco Mundo. Then he fell out of it. I popped in every now and then to see if it ever got better, but it never did. Then it got to the Fullbring arc which was basically Kubo trying to be Togashi, and it utterly failed on every front. The only reason I'm reading it now is because I'm subscribed to Jump. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't even bother with it.

I don't think there is a manga with more missed potential that fell apart so hard than Bleach. Naruto is up there, but Bleach still takes the cake since it literally threw away a whole cast of characters with potential and never did anything with them.

Then he goes and spends over 200 chapters on the final arc while still managing to make the ending feel rushed.

Sorry, I can't blame an editor change for what happened to Bleach. He's still responsible for what happened to the series. He knew what was successful and what people liked in the first few arcs and threw it all aside. If he didn't have the sense to realize what he was doing, then, well, he was never a good writer in the first place. Toriyama might have stumbled with the Cell arc, but did he stumble for nearly a decade? Let's put the blame where it belongs here. At some point he would have been able to turn it around. He never did. Not once. At some point, he has to take the blame for his own work.

What a downer. Down on MHA, Watsuki, and everything else, but finds a way to defend Bleach of all things. This was your strangest podcast yet. 

And Takei did Stray Cat Samurai which is apparently pretty good. A better example would have been to use the writer of Prince of Tennis.

[LumRanmaYasha]

And all this started because of MHA. I dunno, he sounds like because MHA didn't knock his socks off in four volumes that there must be some kind of reason for it beyond his tastes. No dude, you just don't care for it. That made it even more obvious when you guys tried to ask him if he read the Stain arc and he ignored the question. He isn't interested in it even if it gets good.

I think you have the wrong idea about Josh. I was surprised to hear he was so ambivalent about the series, because he absolutely LOVED the first volume. Josh and Colton did a special episode of The Manga Corner last October on MHA and OPM and he was very passionate about it and praised it very highly back then. He's only been reading it as the english volumes have been released (and to my knowledge he plans to keep reading it), so he wouldn't have gotten to anything past the Sports Festival yet. And to be fair, I know a few people who didn't care for and weren't really sold on MHA until after that arc.

Sorry, I can't blame an editor change for what happened to Bleach. He's still responsible for what happened to the series. He knew what was successful and what people liked in the first few arcs and threw it all aside. If he didn't have the sense to realize what he was doing, then, well, he was never a good writer in the first place. Toriyama might have stumbled with the Cell arc, but did he stumble for nearly a decade? Let's put the blame where it belongs here. At some point he would have been able to turn it around. He never did. Not once. At some point, he has to take the blame for his own work.

Kubo is ultimately accountable for the quality of his series. I don't think he's a naturally good writer. In re-reading early Bleach, however, I've noticed a lot of inklings of the problems that would plague the series later on (extraneous detours, long fights, cartoonishly sadistic villains, inconsistencies with the series' lore, etc.) were present in the earlier material, but didn't detract from the good elements of the story to a distracting degree and drag it down like they would after Hueco Mundo. As we've seen with Toriyama, a good editor can really bring out the best in a mangaka and help focus the direction of the story, and I think Kubo's first editor played a large part in helping Kubo craft his story in those first few years. I think it's worth speculating how Bleach could've been salvaged if Kubo's second editor was more strict and accountable, and didn't just let him have free reign and do whatever he wanted.

[VLordGTZ]

And Takei did Stray Cat Samurai which is apparently pretty good. A better example would have been to use the writer of Prince of Tennis.

While I personally enjoy what I've read of Ultimo, it definitely suffers from some strange pacing at times and the fact that Stan Lee gave Takei a really mediocre concept to work with.  It's certainly not as solid a work as Shaman King, but it's not outright bad either.  I also hear that it gets much better once the time-travel plot-lines are introduced.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Stan Lee's been full of mediocre ideas over the last two decades. Though I haven't read Ultimo, I would have to imagine that any quality from it would have to be from Takei.

And all this started because of MHA. I dunno, he sounds like because MHA didn't knock his socks off in four volumes that there must be some kind of reason for it beyond his tastes. No dude, you just don't care for it. That made it even more obvious when you guys tried to ask him if he read the Stain arc and he ignored the question. He isn't interested in it even if it gets good.

I think you have the wrong idea about Josh. I was surprised to hear he was so ambivalent about the series, because he absolutely LOVED the first volume. Josh and Colton did a special episode of The Manga Corner last October on MHA and OPM and he was very passionate about it and praised it very highly back then. He's only been reading it as the english volumes have been released (and to my knowledge he plans to keep reading it), so he wouldn't have gotten to anything past the Sports Festival yet. And to be fair, I know a few people who didn't care for and weren't really sold on MHA until after that arc.

It's possible I have the wrong idea, but I can only judge on my first impression. He was a bit of a downer on most everything. And to be honest, that tangent went on way too long.

Sorry, I can't blame an editor change for what happened to Bleach. He's still responsible for what happened to the series. He knew what was successful and what people liked in the first few arcs and threw it all aside. If he didn't have the sense to realize what he was doing, then, well, he was never a good writer in the first place. Toriyama might have stumbled with the Cell arc, but did he stumble for nearly a decade? Let's put the blame where it belongs here. At some point he would have been able to turn it around. He never did. Not once. At some point, he has to take the blame for his own work.

Kubo is ultimately accountable for the quality of his series. I don't think he's a naturally good writer. In re-reading early Bleach, however, I've noticed a lot of inklings of the problems that would plague the series later on (extraneous detours, long fights, cartoonishly sadistic villains, inconsistencies with the series' lore, etc.) were present in the earlier material, but didn't detract from the good elements of the story to a distracting degree and drag it down like they would after Hueco Mundo. As we've seen with Toriyama, a good editor can really bring out the best in a mangaka and help focus the direction of the story, and I think Kubo's first editor played a large part in helping Kubo craft his story in those first few years. I think it's worth speculating how Bleach could've been salvaged if Kubo's second editor was more strict and accountable, and didn't just let him have free reign and do whatever he wanted.

I'm of the opinion that it probably would have succumbed to his vices eventually. But yeah, it probably would have hung together a bit longer. The fact is that he turned out to not be a Toriyama, Inoue, Oda, or even a Kishimoto. It was doomed to fall apart sooner or later.

I just keep thinking of Bakuman and the editor Miura. His advice on Business Boy Kenichi was bad and lead to it getting canceled, but Takahama was ultimately responsible for not ignoring him and doing the right thing anyway. Heck, Ashirogi created a whole series based around his tastes and almost got themselves locked into mediocrity because of it. While Miura was bad at his job, they still took the blame when they asked it to be canceled.

The whole situation is a real shame, honestly. I'm not sure what Kubo is going to do when he finally wraps this up. He might have a problem selling audiences on whatever he does next.

[LumRanmaYasha]

While I like and respect Josh, you shouldn't take his criticisms of shonen manga too seriously. He can be pretty picky and harsh sometimes. I mean, he hates Buso Renkin and Black Clover despite having only read their first chapters. 

[LumRanmaYasha]

#EFAC