Sonic The Hedgehog

[Foggle]

Chao Garden can fuck off though.

My 10 year old self logged over 100 hours into that place.

Same. Probably more than that, in fact...

[Nel_Annette]

All they did was die! You could raise them for months, but one day they would just curl up and croak anyway.  A cruel lesson for a child. The best you could hope for was reincarnation, but all the fucking stats reset!

I only got one to Chaos Chao level. He was the luckiest of all.

[talonmalon333]

All they did was die! You could raise them for months, but one day they would just curl up and croak anyway.  A cruel lesson for a child. The best you could hope for was reincarnation, but all the fucking stats reset!

I only got one to Chaos Chao level. He was the luckiest of all.

Their stats don't reset. They just drop to 10% (so if their stamina was 2,500 upon reincarnation, they would be reborn with a stamina of 250)... I'm going to be a jerk and say I really played favorites with my Chao. I raised my very first Chao and probably came close to maxing out all his stats, while the rest of them were all really weak. When he finally became a Chaos Chao, that was around the time when I stopped playing, my reason for playing complete.

I think he possesses every medal available.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Let me take you back.

I had been waiting for Sonic The Hedgehog 4 since I saved Angel Island and defeated Super Metal Sonic way back when S&K came out. Since then I went through the N64, the PS1, and the Game Boy Color (and skipped the Saturn because no Sonic = no buy), and then I saw the previews for Sonic Adventure in magazines and I was pumped.

Sonic & Tails! Running through levels in 3D! And unlike Super Mario 64, they were still point A to B affairs and it looked amazing! Knuckles was back, too! As a Sonic fan who waited for way too long, and was dying for a good 3D platformer (remember, I didn't like them much at the time) it looked fantastic.

The Dreamcast came out, my friend got one randomly for his birthday with a copy of Sonic Adventure and Power Stone and let me play it. Suffice to say, my run through Emerald Coast made me a lot more giddy than my first run through of Bob-Omb Battlefield. The Sonic levels were like 2D Sonic but in 3D (they had less routes, but since this was their first 3D game, I let it slide) with platforming, intense speed, and Tails was there! I wasn't big on the Adventure field stuff (especially when I got stuck in that one place I still get stuck in), but I had a blast with every Sonic level (Casinopolis was great when I would just go into the sewer and play the level- tons of routes there)... all Ten of them. The game felt a bit short when it was done, but I had a great time with the action stages so I was more than pleased. The Tails levels were like shorter time attack variants, so those were cool, and the Knuckles stages took a bit too long, but I still enjoyed them for the most part. The Amy stuff I could take or leave (it was 3 levels... Not much to complain about), but the robot stuff was a fun sub-game that was also time attack-y so I could deal.  The Big stuff was rank though, even at the time I couldn't stand it, and I really despised the Super Sonic boss (I still do) but other than that I thought it was a great game.

Now when I play it, I basically play the ten Sonic stages (or just Sonic's story if I'm so inclined) and possibly Tails... sometimes Knuckles... but that's usually it.

I still like Sonic Adventure. A lot of the 3D platformers from between Super Mario 64 to Jak & Daxter are a bit wonky in some aspect or another, but if they were fun then... they're still fun now.

[talonmalon333]

What'd you think of SA2, Spark?

Also, I'd like to make one thing clear when I took a guess on SA and SA2 having the same flaws as later Sonic games. I should've been more specific and left out Sonic 2006, cause no matter what Sonic has done over the years, that game is the clear standout and is an abortion waiting to happen. I should've compared it directly to Heroes and Unleashed. Because like those games, the Adventure games suffer from a wonky camera, meh controls, and very little genuine platforming, all underneath a focus on tedious extras. Admittedly though, I wholly believe that they have less baggage than their follow-ups, which puts the Adventure games above them.

But even still, again, this was just a guess that I took, and one that I would love to be wrong on.

What did you guys think of the DS Sonic Colors? Am I the only one who preferred the Wii version?

[Spark Of Spirit]

I think SA1 has a lot of platforming, of any 3D Sonic game until Colors it had by far the most.

What'd you think of SA2, Spark?

When I first heard about it? "They removed the fishing and pared it down to Sonic, Tails and Knuckles! No more Adventure maps? Sweet!" On paper (like Sonic Heroes, let's be honest) it sounded like the perfect sequel to Sonic Adventure 1. The City Escape demo I played was even awesome, so I was hopeful.

But then I got it and... I was underwhelmed. Even at the time. The Sonic levels were great, but why was Tails in a mech an why was the mech gameplay a downgrade from SA1? Why were the Knuckles levels so aggravating with a gimped radar and tons of empty space? Why were there only 5 Sonic levels and why were they shorter and with less paths and platforming than the ones in SA1? The good and evil sides made little difference since the evil side was just copies of the good side... and Shadow had less overall levels still.

As a whole I simply can't put it over the original, most everything felt like a step back except that the Spindash wasn't broken.

Also to emphasize, the Adventure games are better than every 3D Sonic game until Colors because the level design, controls, and gimmicks were all horribly implemented in every single one of them. It has nothing to do with nostalgia, Sonic Team really fell apart after SA2.

What did you guys think of the DS Sonic Colors? Am I the only one who preferred the Wii version?

I thought it was a clear indicator that the Rush formula's tank is completely empty.

[Rynnec]

Speaking of Rush's formula being dried up, I think the same can be said for the Adventure formula. I mean, at this point, another game with that formula would just be a downgrade from Colours/Generations. '06 was their last chance to improve on the  SA formula, and they blew it.

As a whole I simply can't put it over the original, most everything felt like a step back except that the Spindash wasn't broken.

Well, SA2's Chao Garden blows the first one out of the water, if nothing else. And the fact that Shadow had so few level's was irritating even as a kid. Especially with how much the game marketed him. As for Tails being in a mech, blame that on Sega's shoehorning more playable characters. It really shows since all of Tails and Rouge's stages are pretty much filler.

Also to emphasize, the Adventure games are better than every 3D Sonic game until Colors because the level design, controls, and gimmicks were all horribly implemented in every single one of them. It has nothing to do with nostalgia, Sonic Team really fell apart after SA2.

Not gonna lie, I'd much rather play Black Knight level's than SA2's Treasure Hunting/Shooting level's. The Werehog can go fuck itself though. Heroes was a dissapointment, Shadow was mediocre at best, and '06 was an unfinished mess.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Speaking of Rush's formula being dried up, I think the same can be said for the Adventure formula. I mean, at this point, another game with that formula would just be a downgrade from Colours/Generations. '06 was their last chance to improve on the  SA formula, and they blew it.

Yeah, pretty much. To be honest, I never want another "genre roulette" Sonic game ever again. If we get multiple characters, I want it to be like S3&K where they all play the same except their skills give them alternate paths. Oddly, I thought that's what Heroes was gonna be until, you know, it came out and it was implemented horribly and made totally useless.

As a whole I simply can't put it over the original, most everything felt like a step back except that the Spindash wasn't broken.

Well, SA2's Chao Garden blows the first one out of the water, if nothing else. And the fact that Shadow had so few level's was irritating even as a kid. Especially with how much the game marketed him. As for Tails being in a mech, blame that on Sega's shoehorning more playable characters. It really shows since all of Tails and Rouge's stages are pretty much filler.

Yeah, SA2 has a lot of problems that to this day I don't really understand why it has especially since they should have been ironed out after the original. I know the original game was just supposed to be Sonic, Knuckles, and Eggman, until they tinkered around with it and lazily threw in Shadow (who was in the story, but not playable IIRC), Rouge and Tails late in development.

Also I fully admit to never using the Chao Gardens. I simply can't get into those kinds of things. 

Also to emphasize, the Adventure games are better than every 3D Sonic game until Colors because the level design, controls, and gimmicks were all horribly implemented in every single one of them. It has nothing to do with nostalgia, Sonic Team really fell apart after SA2.

Not gonna lie, I'd much rather play Black Knight level's than SA2's Treasure Hunting/Shooting level's. The Werehog can go fuck itself though. Heroes was a dissapointment, Shadow was mediocre at best, and '06 was an unfinished mess.

I'd rather play Sonic's Unleashed levels over the mech and hunting levels, too. I'd probably also like Unleashed more than SA2 if the Werehog didn't take up a significantly larger portion of the game than the daytime levels and if the daytime levels weren't so linear and had so many overly cheap deaths. But when it comes down to it, I'd rather play the SA2 Sonic and Shadow levels over the Unleashed Sonic levels even if I don't like them as much as the ones from SA1, Colors, or Generations.

To be honest, I think Heroes was the biggest disappointment because every single issue with that game was something that shouldn't have been there. 06 is still the worst, but Heroes could have been good if they didn't put so little effort into it.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

So, I played the Sonic Adventure 2 demo last night, and this marked the first time that I had played that game in over 5 years if I'm not mistaken.

Honestly, I STILL don't get why people say the controls are bad. I could control Sonic just fine, and the controls in this game weren't any less responsive than they are in Generations. I think people just like to complain a lot. Either that, or maybe the other characters have worse controls. I think that the only initial problem is that Sonic's movements may be a bit TOO responsive if that makes sense, since any slight motion of your analogue-stick makes him respond by moving in that direction. It just takes some getting used to, and I honestly got back into the feel of it after just a few minutes of playing the demo. I can honestly say that I still like the SA version of City Escape better than the Generations version of that stage for modern Sonic. I mean its still good in that game, but for whatever reason it actually feels smaller, maybe because it doesn't have secret items and  stuff hidden throughout the level like the SA version of the game did. The classic version of that stage is surprisingly awesome, though, and that's my favorite version of that stage overall.

At any rate, I'll get around to replaying both SA games the next time I get a long break from college.

[Foggle]

I think Adventure 2 has aged a lot better than the original. The controls in the sequel have never really bothered me like they do (now) in Adventure 1.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Once again, I have no idea which game you were playing, but I played the demo for the original as well and the controls were just as fine over there. I seriously feel like people just blow the control issues out of proportion in those games, at least for Sonic. I haven't played as any of the other characters, but I can say with absolute certainty that Sonic controls well in both Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, and any huge issues that people have with their controls is just self-perceived.

I will say that for whatever reason Sonic's homing attack in SA2 seems to miss a lot more than it does in SA1 (once again, though, this is only based on the demo I played for each game).

[Foggle]

I felt like I was fighting the camera almost constantly for about half of SA1 when I replayed it.

[talonmalon333]

I know this doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with what you guys are talking about, but is the demo of SA1 based on the DC version, or the GC one?

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I felt like I was fighting the camera almost constantly for about half of SA1 when I replayed it.

That's a camera issue, not a control issue. You said SA1 had worse controls.

As for the camera, I remember not having nearly as much of a problem with them in either games as most other people seem to say they have. They aren't broken and I could typically see where I was going. They do have less than stellar cameras, though, and as a kid I can definitely say that I had just as many cheap deaths in SA2 during bad camera segments as I did in SA1, I remember that aspect of both games clearly. Still, the cameras in those games usually do a sufficient job of keeping up with you, but yeah, they are definitely far from perfect.

[Foggle]

The camera is mapped to the right stick, it's part of the game's control scheme.

And I mean, no, Sonic Adventure's camera isn't godawful, but SA2's is much better.