Sonic The Hedgehog

[Nel_Annette]

Yeah, and those cutscenes are when the island is in the air at the start and the end of Knuckles' scenario, and you can still see the other landmass around it. In the CGI cutscenes, you can still see the giant mountain and forests. If you're in the area, go into first-person and look towards the cave. Looming over it is the same mountain.

What baffles me is

-The developer's chose to remove Hidden Palace as the Master Emerald's residing place, and put it on a floating island ON a floating island, which I admit could confuse people. Soo I really can't fault you on thinking that Angel Island was just that little rock.

-How the island, which we know moves across the planet as per it being above nothing but ocean in StH3&K, has somehow fallen into it's original location not once, but twice, as we see by the Tikal flashbacks.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I re-played SA1 less than a year ago and I have no idea what you're talking about, Talon. The story is simple and just meant to be fun, for the most part. The stuff with Chaos is just meant to give the villain a bit of a sympathetic back-story. There is nothing "forced" about it. It's, in a way, the same as how Dr. Eggman used Knuckle in S3&K, where Knuckle wasn't really a bad guy at heart, but somehow he convinced Knuckle to help him secure the chaos emeralds. In that same vein, Chaos is basically just a pawn of Eggman's scheme until he finally has enough of the guy and manages to achieve is bad-ass final form.

More than half of the individual character stories in the game were just simple fun and nonsense, and the serious parts of the story weren't trying to be any more deep or complex than anything you found in the Genesis Sonic games.

As for SA2, while I find it's story to be a guilty-pleasure, THAT's a story that tries to be way darker and more serious than it needs to be. And it's honestly a bit too silly as a result, even by the standards of Sonic games. I mean, why the hell does a "President" need to have any involvement in any scene of this game? And what's Dr. Eggman's grandfather (or great grandfather, or whatever; I forget), being so anal that he has to create an ultimate life form to destroy the planet. Because, you know, that's what kids want to see in a Sonic game. The only serious element of the plot that really worked for me, in retrospect, was the connection between Shadow and Maria, which basically, much like Chaos and Knuckle, made Shadow more of a misguided character who wasn't really evil at heart.

[Nel_Annette]

Also, I agree with Ensatsu on this. Much as I love both games, story-wise, SA2 seems to take itself a bit more seriously than SA1, and kinda falls flat on its face for it.

[Rynnec]

Gerald Robotnik didn't initially create Shadow to destroy the planet, it wasn't until after his granddaughter died (which was after Shadow's creation) that he went mad with grief and altered Shadow's memory while he was in stasis to want to destroy Earth.

[talonmalon333]

It might just be the nostalgia talking (as a GameCube owner, I got SA2 before SA1 and have stronger memories tied to the sequel), or just the fact that I haven't played either in ages. But while SA2 is "darker", I remember there being more story in SA1. Like, there were more cutscenes during the gameplay, and the game would occasionally show Sonic in these flashbacks, stuff like that. There was more to swallow in general. And I agree that SA2 had many forced elements as well (I like the example E-K gives about the president). Just as a whole, I remember SA2's story being a bit more straightforward, and I feel like I'd have an easier time explaining it. I didn't fully get all of the backstory stuff in SA1, about Tikal's tribe and Chaos' relation to it. Still, I think both stories worked okay for the most part (although neither were particularly good stories, but of course that doesn't matter much in Sonic games).

[Rynnec]

The SA's certainly had the best characterization of the Sonic characters out of all the 3-D games up til Black Knight.

[talonmalon333]

Well as for Sonic himself, I think it's hard to mess up his characterization unless you pair him up with a human female princess.

[Rynnec]

Sonic was pretty bland in Heroes to Unleashed. Granted, with the exception of '06 it was no where near as bad as Knuckles post-SA2, or Shadow in his own game.

[talonmalon333]

I had mixed feelings about Knuckles in the SA games. I don't know, maybe it's the deep voice. But when I see him and hear him talk, I just don't think of the guy from S3&K who was a total sneak, coming up with dirty tricks to stop Sonic and laughing in pride at his failures.

[Rynnec]

It is rather jarring compared to how he was in S3&K, but I think the serious, duty-focused personality in the Adventure games fits his character a bit more, and is a nicer contrast to Sonic. Both characterizations are preferable to the dumb muscle he became in later games though.

[talonmalon333]

It is rather jarring compared to how he was in S3&K, but I think the serious, duty-focused personality in the Adventure games fits his character a bit more, and is a nicer contrast to Sonic. Both characterizations are preferable to the dumb muscle he became in later games though.

Do you mean it fits the guardian characterization better? Perhaps, but I don't know, I feel like even Knuckles' design was made for a "cool character".  And his characterization now, along with that unusually deep voice, makes him kind of generic to me.

Though in Sonic X, I remember him constantly screaming like he has an anger problem.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I always assumed the place Knuckles put the Master Emerald in the S3&K credits was where he left it when SA1 began.

So would guys recommend Lost World? The reviews I'm seeing seem extremely tepid by comparison to Generations and Colors.

I'll be getting a Wii U for Christmas (Wind Waker bundle of course), but other than 3D World and maybe NSMBU I'm a little stuck on what to get. Like, is it at least as good as Colors?

I say just check it out. From what I've seen, half the people love it and half the people hate it. You won't find a solid, all-around answer on this one. 

Just don't touch the putrid 3DS version. Ever.

Basically this. Either way, though, I do hope they continue with the speedy platforming focus in future games. Personally, I thought it was fun. The 3D levels are the best Sonic has been in 3D, the 2D is fun for the most part, but the gimmick levels can go either way. If you can get used to the controls and some difficulty spikes it's quite a fun game. It's certainly not worse than the pre-Colors and post-Adventure 2 games.

But don't forget DuckTales Remastered and the eshop stuff. There's plenty of stuff waiting for you.

[talonmalon333]

Spark, I was curious about your thoughts on this Sonic analysis, on how his jump to 3D was rough, and how he's supposedly gotten back on track. It's 17 minutes and I haven't seen anything else this person has done. And I'm no expert on modern Sonic, so if you choose to watch it I'd like to get you're thoughts.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mW-nMRZGpgA

[Spark Of Spirit]

I don't watch too many internet videos, so I'll just tell you the inherent problems with adjusting Sonic to 3D.

Sonic was always advertised as "Mario but cooler and faster" which played in well with their advertising campaign of appearing "cooler" than Nintendo.

The problem with this, is the same problem I had with Mario's transition to 3D. It didn't have a whole lot to do with what people enjoyed from the series in the first place. Mario is a point A to B platformer more about speed runs than exploration (though it has that) and Super Mario 64 was anything but that. But you know what, for a first try it was admirable of them to try something different. This is my same stance with the Sonic Adventure games. Not perfect by any stretch, but good first attempts to try and put it into 3D.

The problem is that Mario eventually found his roots again while Sonic floundered for years trying to top the Adventure games instead of going back to his roots. With the Galaxy games, Mario went back to his roots and became a Point A to B game again with defined goals and the exploration put into the levels instead of the hub.

I know people think Sonic's problems in 3D are that the games don't play like the classic games, but that's not it. Galaxy doesn't play anything like the 2D classics either. But the general idea and approach is the same. I mean, what do Heroes, Sonic 06, Shadow, Unleashed, and the storybook games really have in common with Sonic 2? Nothing. They in fact got further and further away, though at least with Colors and Generations they perfected the formula- it was never going to be one they could continue on.

The problem has been that starting with Adventure through Generations they made Sonic more about speed than platforming. He was about both in the classic games, but became increasingly about one as it went along. It's not hard to understand why considering how difficult a balance is to make. Because how do you make Sonic fast AND be able to do interesting platforming? Only with tighter control of his speed. How do you keep the speed going after hitting unforeseen obstacles? Parkour. How do you make it a challenge to do speedruns and tight platforming at a reasonable pace? Double jumps, and the spindash.

With Lost World they hit the only way Sonic in 3D could really work to both his strengths. The game is fairly fast (when you know what you're doing), and has a lot of platforming. It's not perfect, but it's a good and solid step forward. They just need to do what everyone's been asking. Sonic-only gameplay (unlockable characters are bonus) throughout the whole game with little to no focus on non-Sonic gameplay like treasure hunting or shooting guns.

I honestly do think Lost World is the closest to classic the 3D games have been. Speedy-platforming.

[talonmalon333]

Spark, do you like Lost World more than Generations and Colors?

And here's a question for everyone. Which half of S3&K do you prefer? The Sonic 3 half, or the Sonic & Knuckles half?

I pick the Sonic & Knuckles part. I just think every level in the game is brilliant. That's not to say the ones in Sonic 3 aren't. But I mean, even Mushroom Hill is a very unique first level. In Sonic 3, I adore Marble Garden, Carnival Night, and Ice Cap in particular (Angel Island Zone, Hydrocity, and Launch Base are still great, though). And I'd probably say I like almost, if not all, of the levels in Sonic & Knuckles on the same level as those three.

Though I have noticed that Sonic 3 seems to be the more colorful game. The colors in Sonic & Knuckles seem a bit duller for the most part, though I do find that they work for the levels in the game, so no issue here.