What Are You Watching?

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

On another note, I'm pleasantly surprised to see that Space Brothers made the top 10, and I'm also reminded that I need to catch up with the manga. I'm also glad to see that after several more hours of voting, Rage of Bahamut is in the top 10 as well. I was kind of wondering why JoJo's wasn't included on this list, until I rememebred that it was still running into next year, and was only on hiatus for now.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I have never listened to that podcast, but I probably should consider it since I am a fan, flip-flopper, and hater of HxH. 

Still, it is nice to know there are more people critical of the series than us, since the series begs for honest criticism like all the best works. I mean criticism in the classical sense, by the way, and not "this show is bad and you should be ashamed of liking it you terrible human being who is probably racist" style of criticism.

[goody2shoes]

As for AoT, I don't hate it, but I've always found it to be a bit over praised for the things that people actually praise it for. As an entertaining world-ending apocalypse/battle for survival of the human race sort of story, I think it's suitably entertaining. When people praise it for things that it's clearly not, like having deep characters and being an actual good drama, then I find the praise to be rather undeserved, personally. It's the same for Death Note, really, and I love Death Note.

Yeah, agree about AoT and DN. Both shows had many flaws I'm aware of, and they didn't pass me by when I was watching either. They just didn't bother me, personally, that much for whatever reason. AoT's talking/inner monologues for instance, I just rolled my eyes and kept watching. When I'm sold on a show (say, Bake, NHK, AoT) their flaws almost become endearing to me.

You're not much of a fan of Yoshihiro Togashi, I take it.

So what do you specifically not like about the show/manga? I don't hear much criticism from it since most people tend to love it unconditionally or not know it exists, so I'm curious to hear from a non-fan.

Well, I'll try to be brief.
1. The story, tone and pacing are all over the place. Directionless.
2. In the first arc, "Hunter Exam" nobody gives a shit about the death of other hunter applicants. This irked me majorly and turned me off the main characters.
3. Most arcs I found boring and/or forgettable.
4. Chimera Ant arc is offensive on many levels. Sadistic violence used for shock value; awful, badly designed villains who show up from nowhere and steal the spotlight; poorly thought out and paced story because of Togashi's hiatuses; the narrator; attempting to milk sympathy out of me for the aforementioned villains.
4.1. Anime messed up the introduction of a CA character.

[gunswordfist]

i didn't know foggle watched any of hxh.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Well, I'll try to be brief.
1. The story, tone and pacing are all over the place. Directionless.
2. In the first arc, "Hunter Exam" nobody gives a shit about the death of other hunter applicants. This irked me majorly and turned me off the main characters.

I'd actually like to point out that these first 2 criticisms are actually intentional aspects of the series, hence why I say that it's not for everyone. As far as the tone goes, Togashi specifically wanted a different theme for each arc, so the tone is only ever consistent within its own arc, hence why the Hunter Exams are more about adventure and mystery, the York New City arc is more dark and moody to go along with the revenge story, and so on and so forth. Personally, I actually like this because it keeps such a long-running series from becoming too much of the same thing for me. Understandably, it'll bug the hell out of someone just looking for a clear and concise story, though if you're one of those people, you shouldn't really be looking for that in this genre to begin with, a few exceptions aside. As for the not caring about total strangers dying, that's kind of in the nature of this series. It's a dangerous world and you can only afford to look out for the people who you know and trust. If you're talking about characters being unlikable because they don't seem to care so much about strangers being killed off, I can think of at least a few worse examples than this series, at the very least.

4. Chimera Ant arc is offensive on many levels. Sadistic violence used for shock value;

I agree about the violence being needless and for shock value, but I found it more cartoony than sadistic. All the same, I hated the excessive violence in the first third of the arc.

awful, badly designed villains who show up from nowhere and steal the spotlight;

This is the one thing that I honestly can't agree with, myself. I loved the development of Meruem from being a one-dimensional killing machine to actually trying to find a greater purpose for himself, even if his "vision" for the future was horribly skewed. All the while, there was a parallel with Gon going down a significantly darker path, despite where both characters started out in the arc. At one point, the villain seemed to be closer to the role of the hero, and vice versa for Gon. As for the Royal Guards, I like how their over-devotion to Meruem ultimately leads to both his and their own downfall.

the narrator

No arguments here.

attempting to milk sympathy out of me for the aforementioned villains.

I don't really see it that way, and personally I'd argue that it's left up to viewer interpretation. The manga, even through the use of the narrator, never explicitly states that any of the villains should be viewed at as good in any light, nor does it take a firm stance on any character being right or wrong in their beliefs or actions, at least not so far as I recall. Hence why I see it as characters simply going through their character arcs and it being left to the viewer to judge them. For lack of a better example in anime form because I can't think of anything at the moment, I'd compare it to something like Game of Thrones, with characters like Jaime Lannister or Sandor Clegane doing seemingly evil things in the beginning of the series, but as their characters become more fleshed out, you also see that there are more well rounded and redeeming qualities to them as well. The point being that, you aren't explicityly intended to sympathize with the characters, but the notion is that nobody is supposed to be 100% evil, or almost nobody. Bottom line being that, I see it as a matter of personal interpretation rather than an attempt to make you feel bad for the villains.

The funny thing is that I actually agree with a lot of your criticisms. If I could find my post about the arc from years ago, you'd see that, surprisingly enough, I addressed a lot of the same issues. The difference here is that, while I don't see it as a great arc, and while I acknowledge the flaws, I don't think that they bother me quite as much as they do for you. I certainly don't find them to be "offensive," of which I associate more with stuff like racism, sexism, or very skewed and uninformed ideals that are presented through the means of the story and characters. Also, I do find their to be some strengths to go along with the flaws, which is why I still think that the CA arc has its good qualities as well.

[Spark Of Spirit]

1. The story, tone and pacing are all over the place. Directionless.

You got that right. Especially when the main character's goal has been achieved before the end of the story. Sometimes it does feel like the author doesn't know where he is going, especially in places like Greed Island or the beginning of the Chimera Ant arc.

That said, when he hits a groove, he soars. But he rarely hits the heights of Yu Yu Hakusho even with a work as long as this is.

2. In the first arc, "Hunter Exam" nobody gives a shit about the death of other hunter applicants. This irked me majorly and turned me off the main characters.

This is, in my opinion, Togashi's greatest vice next to laziness, and it wasn't one he had before HxH. He creates certain characters for nothing more than targets for gory death and it is very often entirely unneeded and does nothing to advance the plot. I almost quit the manga during the Chimera Ant arc, and would have had Knuckle not come in when he did.

3. Most arcs I found boring and/or forgettable.

Most aren't very memorable, I'd agree. The Hunter Exam, York New City, and the back half of Chimera Ant (when the gore dies off) are immensely well written and inventive. Some of the other arcs are well written and some are inventive, but none come close to those. HxH is not a consistent series.

4. Chimera Ant arc is offensive on many levels. Sadistic violence used for shock value; awful, badly designed villains who show up from nowhere and steal the spotlight; poorly thought out and paced story because of Togashi's hiatuses; the narrator; attempting to milk sympathy out of me for the aforementioned villains.

I 100% agree. Unfortunately, underneath that sludge of shock value and one dimensional villains there is a good story. As the arc goes along, that good story manages to come to the surface. After Knuckle's introduction, basically any scene with his team, Killua, Ikalgo, Welfin, or Meruem playing chess is top notch. You just have to wade through a lot of bad stuff to get to it. That fight with Pouf was one of the best fights in the series, too.

But yeah, I never bought feeling sorry for any of the Ants except for the ones who were actually repentant and trying to do good. Those also happened to be the best bad guys in the arc because of it. Togashi just went way too overboard with them being cruel and monstrous for me to care about much of any of them.

4.1. Anime messed up the introduction of a CA character.

I haven't seen the anime yet, but I could hardly imagine who this is referring to.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Oh wait, I forgot about the Chairman Election arc. That was a great one outside of the random character death in the middle of it.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I 100% agree. Unfortunately, underneath that sludge of shock value and one dimensional villains there is a good story.

Most of those one-dimensional villains are killed off early on in the arc. The ones we are left with, while not all great, aren't quite as one-note.

That fight with Pouf was one of the best fights in the series, too.

I'm pretty sure that you mean Youpi, considering that Pouf hardly fights at all in the arc.

But yeah, I never bought feeling sorry for any of the Ants except for the ones who were actually repentant and trying to do good.

And like I already said, I still don't see how the series showed any intention of having you feel sympathy for them. If anything, I'd say that it says a lot more about how the two of you interpreted them, which says something despite all of your criticisms.

But like I said, Togashi never explicitly says: "well this character is good now and should be forgiven for his actions." Instead he writes a story where you are set up with animalistic villains who eventually grow into elements of their humanity, for better or worse, all the while the more idealistic Gon is discovering that his former stance on the world around him has cost him the liege of his friend and mentor, and when he finally gets down to confronting his enemies he ends up being the one to awaken his more sinister nature. I just like that element of reverseral of character develomment roles, which is doubly great because his character arc also reversely parallels Killua's.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Did they show Gyro at all in the anime, by the way?

I'm pretty sure that you mean Youpi, considering that Pouf hardly fights at all in the arc.

Oh yeah. Sorry, it's been a while since I read it. 

Problem was I just didn't care about the ants as a whole. Outside of the obvious ones, most of them were all rather boring as characters, I thought.

[goody2shoes]

This is an interesting discussion. I think it's helping me have a more balanced perspective on the show, as opposed to the intense hatred you may have sensed earlier.

As for the not caring about total strangers dying, that's kind of in the nature of this series. It's a dangerous world and you can only afford to look out for the people who you know and trust. If you're talking about characters being unlikable because they don't seem to care so much about strangers being killed off, I can think of at least a few worse examples than this series, at the very least.

I understand that it may have been intentional, I just don't think the characters' reactions to all the death around them are realistically portrayed. There's a middle ground between bleeding-heart shonen heroism and sociopathic indifference.

I haven't seen the anime yet, but I could hardly imagine who this is referring to.

Kite wasn't in the first episode/s of HxH 2011.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

This is an interesting discussion. I think it's helping me have a more balanced perspective on the show, as opposed to the intense hatred you may have sensed earlier.

That's good to know. To be perfectly honest, I'm kind of glad to have someone around who doesn't praise Togashi for all of his writing decisions (Spark aside). That probably sounds weird coming from a fan, but I'd rather have a sensible discussion about the strengths and flaws of a series that I mostly enjoy, as opposed to just conversing with Togashi ass-kissers who have nothing to say other than "that's awesome" or "wow, what a genious writer Togashi is!" It grates on my nerves if only because, while I do enjoy most of his output (more so Yu Yu Hakusho than anything else, though), he shouldn't be excused for his lazy hiatuses and terrible pacing issues (which, to be fair, only became a problem in the Chimera Ant arc, IMO). And, may I remind everyone that I fucking detest the hardcore HXH fan-base, who basically ran me out of a forum just because I dared to question the lackluster writing quality of Togashi's excessive use of narration, and also called the villains too overpowered in the beginning. And that's why I never talk to HXH fans on any other board, anymore.

I understand that it may have been intentional, I just don't think the characters' reactions to all the death around them are realistically portrayed. There's a middle ground between bleeding-heart shonen heroism and sociopathic indifference.

I wouldn't necessarily call it sociopathic indifference, and to be fair I think certain main characters grow a much needed compassion for the value of human life (and life in general) as the series progresses (Killua in particular, which is so ironic given where his character started), but for what it's worth I wasn't fond of it either, mostly in the first few arcs. It didn't quite bother me as much, though, mostly because like I said I've seen worse in this regard. Fist of the North Star, which is considered a beloved classic by many, is really guilty of this kind of thing, IMO. I also hated it in early Naruto chapters, as well, and even when the series did grow more appreciation for human life, it got so up its own ass with that theme that it actually got me wishing that some of these ass-wipes would drop off after all.

[Spark Of Spirit]

The indifference to killing is mostly centered on three characters: Kurapika, Gon, and Killua. Any other indifference is usually reserved for some of the Hunters or bad guys, and usually are the scummiest characters anyway.

Kurapika is an assassin focused intently on revenge. If he had any value over human life, I don't think his realization at the end of York New City would have made a lot of sense. Unfortunately, since Togashi all but ignored him for years after that arc, we never got to see how it affected him fully. Leorio was always disgusted by killing and was always the most normal of the main four on top of it.

Killua was raised without any moral compass or understanding of the importance of life. It is only through friendship with Gon and traveling the world around him that he learns compassion, restraint, and grows as a person. If it wasn't for him, I'm not sure this story would have a hero, honestly. He is probably the best character in the series.

Gon is probably the most controversial character, even though he's the man character. He's rather one note and self-centered outside of his inner circle of friends, routinely does stupid things, and is easily the least interesting character of the main four. That said, his portrayal sort of peaked in the Chimera Ant arc when his stupid decisions came back to bite him over and over, as well as the dawning realization that he was turning into a monster as quickly as Killua was turning into a hero. It hasn't really shown how much affect this will have on him as a main character, if any, but as it is his descent into the dark is just part of his character arc. Gon just doesn't do much for me either way, though.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I'm suddenly wondering where CX has been these past few days. He's been MIA for a little while on this board, and I'd love to see his input on the series considering that he's a fan of it.

[Dr. Insomniac]

Well, Scamp's bewildered as to why HXH is topping the list. Then again, he didn't seem to get why Fate/Zero topped it two years ago.

[gunswordfist]

to play devil's advocate a bit, i believe gon also said he wanted to be a hunter to see why the job was so important that his dad would abandon him for, iirc. i also like that they didn't want until near the end for gon to see ging. that's where my tolerance ends though. i wish togashi made gon's job more clear than helping friends. if he became a specialized type of hunter and became kind of obsessed with his job, like his dad did, then i would not have any complaints about that.