Yu Yu Hakusho

[talonmalon333]

So I've recently started rewatching this. And I think, for the first time, I'm gonna state my problems with this series. And that's the fact that, good as it is, it REALLY feels like they are making it up along the way. Few things I believe were planned, such as Toguro's survival in the first season, and Hiei and Kurama teaming up with them (though Hiei's crude character design in the first few episodes makes me wonder otherwise).

But things like Yusuke's lineage certainly feel like they weren't planned. And most of the time I don't have a BIG problem with this, but the inconsistencies get sloppy. For example, King Yama's character design completely changes in the third season. Sure, like we won't notice that! Not only that, but his established character also changes. What we learn about him in the first few episodes is that he's basically an angry god who will, as Koenma states, destroy cities to get his 3 artifacts. Tell me, do you imagine the CURRENT King Yama, all official and proper, doing that? No. He'd send out the SDF to search for the artifacts.

Another thing that just doesn't line up for me is Hiei's whole story. His first appearance no longer works. Look at his story. We learn that he was exiled from his home... Okay... We learn that he gets the Jagan and wants to find his sister... Makes sense... So how on earth does he get so sidetracked by those artifacts? Heck, the least they could have done is whip up an explanation for it, that maybe he wanted the sword to create demons to help his search. At least then they could pretend they had things planned.

There's also the fact that every demon they meet is the end all, eat-face-and-die, master villain. In the beginning, OH MY GOSH HIEI KURAMA AND GOUKI ARE PUSHING OUT TREMENDOUS AMOUNTS OF ENERGY. Then we learn they are just a bunch of wimps. How about the Saint Beasts? They supposedly could have taken over the world. Well... I think Sensui would have a few things to say to that.

Then we get Toguro, who they flat-out call "the most powerful". And even when they try to bring in the statistics in the next season, it still feels weird. But I guess they do have a good way to explain this. Basically he's the most powerful in human world...

Now we get to Sensui, probably my biggest problem. HE seems like the ultimate villain. I remember when these episodes were on Toonami years ago, after seeing the Sacred Energy I actually said "No one will ever be stronger then Sensui". Then, guess what? He's a weakling! And what ever happened to the A-class? Minoru called them the equivalent to beasts and gods of myth, and that they are watching from the tunnel "waiting for their chance to rise to glory". Seem invincible, eh? Nope! They're just fodder! Once you get to demon world, everyone and their dog is AT LEAST an A-class. Good thing they didn't make a fifth season, where we'd learn that Raizen is the lackey of "a greater power".

Of course there are other things here and there, like powers being ignored. The Spirit Wave could have been useful, and how come Koenma stopped using that time freeze ability after the first few episodes? That could have been useful!

All these little things do bother me. But of course, they are drowned out by the brilliance of this series. So don't take this as me trying to put it down!

[Spark Of Spirit]

Kurama was always planned to be a good guy but Hiei wasn't at first.

Koenma can't send out the SDF, and he wanted to be discreet. He didn't want his father to find out.

Hiei's arc is a bit confusing, I'll admit. I'm thinking he got the Jagan Eye not long before the series which drained his energy tremendously (bringing him down to D rank) and after he was defeated by Yusuke and employed by Spirit World his outlook began to slowly change. His new found sense of honor seemed to make him less angry/mad and mellowed him out, concentrating his energy allowing him to regain his former power (and then some) over the course of the series. I'm thinking he was trying to get the artifacts to regain some of his lost power the easy way, but when that doesn't work, he gives up and follows Yusuke's example of training. since he seems to respect him a lot.

Kurama's problems were mainly that he was not used to using his human body in battle (the artifacts story was his first "crime" in that form, remember), which also changed as the series went on.

The time freeze thing was an anime only thing. That didn't happen in the manga. Yusuke was talking to Koenma in real time and confusing the teachers.

Toguro was always powerful, even after he died he never felt weakened. He could have killed anyone in Chapter Black short of Sensui. Speaking of sensui, he would have wanted the Saint Beasts to take over the world, that's basically what he wanted in the first place.

I do agree with you that I didn't like the whole Raizen killing Sensui thing, and that it kind of got in the way of the story. Also throw in the last arc not being as well developed and I can't shake the feeling that he should have just ended it at Sensui. We have a new Spirit Detective, a real successor a protector of the world. The end.

I hope I answered some of your questions/problems.

[Aurora]

Going back to the artifacts that must have been some weak security guarding if they were defeated by D-classes. :-/


In fact, looking at the whole First Season...did Koenma seriously expected Yusuke to win his battles? They wanted him too fight 3 D-classes were able to infiltrate Spirit World kill some guards who might have been stronger than Yusuke, A demon going around collecting the best techniques of psychics that might have also been more powerful than Yusuke, and go up against 4 powerful(at the time) Saint Beasts all by himself(I doubt they expected the other 3 to help) without any other support?


I know it would be boring if everything was easy and the opponents weak, but still.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Koenma was an ignorant idiot throughout much of the series. He not only looked like a child, judging on his decisions, he most certainly was one. His plans consisted of "YUSUKE GET THINGS DONE" and hoping he'd figure it out. Not a very good boss, no wonder Yusuke felt so good after hitting him in Chapter Black.

As for the security thing, well I'm sure Kurama had a plan. 

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

In regards to what talonmalon333 said about Yama's/Enma's character design, its not inconsistent at all. When its mentioned that he can destroy cities if he goes on a rampage earlier in the manga, you don't actually see him, all you see is a little clip-show of still pictures showing some interpretation of him. If you've watched your fair share of old-school anime, you'd know that this is a technique used to showcase how someone else (a character in the series) might perceive a character without having seen them. In this case, it was most likely Yusuke's perception of Yama, but either way, the technique is meant for exposition, and was not meant to be an actual character design for the character.

As for Hiei, the only thing that made his character really inconsistent with his first appearance were his mannerisms. As Desensitized explained, him getting the demon artifacts could easily be seen as a way for him to gain power quickly since it was stated that his power was drastically drained after receiving the Jagan Eye. The problem, though, lies in how he was portrayed as a typical villain back during his first appearance, having a smug smirk on his face that is totally contradictory to his more serious tone from when he becomes an ally to Yusuke, and he is shown to lack an honor code which he is immediately shown to have in his next appearance. If he had been kept more serious in tone as a villain during his first appearance, then it would have been consistent, but its obvious that Togashi had never originally planned out his back-story, which is why you learn it so much later on in the series.

Anyways, of course this series wasn't really planned out from the start. Its nothing special, and its pretty common of almost all long-running shonen series. Certain elements of the series were certainly planned out, such as The Dark Tournament arc and Genkai's relation to Toguro, but many other things were just made up as the story moved along. If you've read just about any other shonen series, you'll see that YYH is far from the worst-culprit of this sort of ret-conning, though. Hell, if we're going to talk about things that weren't planned out, you might be interested to know that even the author of Death Note admitted that he almost never planned things out ahead of time, and literally just made up the story as it went along (to be honest, I'm pretty sure he does that with Bakuman, too).

The only shonen manga that I can think of that really plans things out really consistently is One Piece. In that manga, stuff you read in the first 10 chapters will be completely consistent with anything that happens all the way up to chapter 600. The entire story was already planned out before it was even written, which is actually a little disturbing in quite a few ways.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I think Togashi had everything up to the Dark Tournament planned out, but only fleshed it out as he went along. That's why it seems so intertwined, but some of the details seem a bit weird.

Though the anime did make things more consistent, it does seem weird that they wouldn't try to change Hiei's first appearance a bit. I reason it that he was so weak that the Jagan Eye was able to control him (even his form changing kind of implies this), though its obviously nothing canonical just makes it easier for me to understand. I always wonder why he never really used the eye after that, aside from a few moments, despite how heavily he used it in his first appearance. So that's the way I reason it.

That's me, anyway.

[talonmalon333]

I think Yoko Kurama might be a minor inconsistency. He went from showing a sense of fear when Karasu took off his mask, to being revealed as an all powerful A-class.

Kurama was always planned to be a good guy but Hiei wasn't at first.

Hiei's arc is a bit confusing, I'll admit. I'm thinking he got the Jagan Eye not long before the series which drained his energy tremendously (bringing him down to D rank) and after he was defeated by Yusuke and employed by Spirit World his outlook began to slowly change. His new found sense of honor seemed to make him less angry/mad and mellowed him out, concentrating his energy allowing him to regain his former power (and then some) over the course of the series. I'm thinking he was trying to get the artifacts to regain some of his lost power the easy way, but when that doesn't work, he gives up and follows Yusuke's example of training. since he seems to respect him a lot.

The time freeze thing was an anime only thing. That didn't happen in the manga. Yusuke was talking to Koenma in real time and confusing the teachers.

I do agree with you that I didn't like the whole Raizen killing Sensui thing, and that it kind of got in the way of the story. Also throw in the last arc not being as well developed and I can't shake the feeling that he should have just ended it at Sensui. We have a new Spirit Detective, a real successor a protector of the world. The end.

Hiei wasn't? I'm actually surprised! But your theory on him stealing it makes sense. As for the "time freeze" moment... I really need to reread the manga.

Also, does anyone know how Togashi originally planned on ending the series, being that there would have been no season 4?

In fact, looking at the whole First Season...did Koenma seriously expected Yusuke to win his battles? They wanted him too fight 3 D-classes were able to infiltrate Spirit World kill some guards who might have been stronger than Yusuke, A demon going around collecting the best techniques of psychics that might have also been more powerful than Yusuke, and go up against 4 powerful(at the time) Saint Beasts all by himself(I doubt they expected the other 3 to help) without any other support?

But they did expect them to help. They sent Kurama and Hiei, after all.

In regards to what talonmalon333 said about Yama's/Enma's character design, its not inconsistent at all. When its mentioned that he can destroy cities if he goes on a rampage earlier in the manga, you don't actually see him, all you see is a little clip-show of still pictures showing some interpretation of him. If you've watched your fair share of old-school anime, you'd know that this is a technique used to showcase how someone else (a character in the series) might perceive a character without having seen them. In this case, it was most likely Yusuke's perception of Yama, but either way, the technique is meant for exposition, and was not meant to be an actual character design for the character.

Anyways, of course this series wasn't really planned out from the start. Its nothing special, and its pretty common of almost all long-running shonen series. Certain elements of the series were certainly planned out, such as The Dark Tournament arc and Genkai's relation to Toguro, but many other things were just made up as the story moved along. If you've read just about any other shonen series, you'll see that YYH is far from the worst-culprit of this sort of ret-conning, though. Hell, if we're going to talk about things that weren't planned out, you might be interested to know that even the author of Death Note admitted that he almost never planned things out ahead of time, and literally just made up the story as it went along (to be honest, I'm pretty sure he does that with Bakuman, too).

But the thing about King Enma is that this wasn't perceived by Yusuke. It was perceived by Koenma. And that's how Koenma described him, so it must have been accurate. There is also the fact that his character design was changed drastically.

Genkai and Toguro's relationship was planned? Where do you guys learn about all this?

[Spark Of Spirit]

I think Yoko Kurama might be a minor inconsistency. He went from showing a sense of fear when Karasu took off his mask, to being revealed as an all powerful A-class.

He was afraid because his human body was not up to Karasu's level, at the point he didn't have a way of retaining his old form and he would certainly lose without it.

Then he finally transformed and it seemed that his human body was slowly regaining his old powers.

Also, Karasu's ace in the hole was his speed and charisma in masking his movements. With Kurama being able to get around that, Karasu was a much easier threat to deal with.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

But the thing about King Enma is that this wasn't perceived by Yusuke. It was perceived by Koenma. And that's how Koenma described him, so it must have been accurate. There is also the fact that his character design was changed drastically.

No it wasn't, or at least not necessarily. Once again, you seem completely unfamiliar with this old technique in anime, but just because it shows those screens when another character is talking doesn't mean that its "their" perception of it. At any rate, perception was the best way I could put it into words. Its not necessarily how another character thinks a character they haven't seen might look like, but just something for the audience to view without really revealing the real identity of a character's actual design. And there is no proof that it was Koenma's perception of that character (in fact it can't be, since he clearly would have known what he really looked like). If you read the manga, Botan is the one who actually imagines King Enma looking that way (In the manga its implied that she hasn't ever met him in person at any point before the CB arc).

For reference, they use that same technique in the movie in one scene in which Hinagenshi is talking about the Netherworld and King Enma's relation to it, and they depict him in an old-style Japanese painting rather than what he really looks like. That doesn't mean that's his "character design," its just a technique they use to give viewers some picture of a character when they don't know what they look like yet.

So, I'm not arguing that they didn't know what he looked like at that point, because they would have shown him if they did, but Togashi didn't think of actually putting him in as a character in the story at that point, so what he showed the readers was a "depiction" of what King Enma might look like, not an actual character design. There is a difference. If you've seen other shonen series where they have exposition scenes in which they build up an upcoming character that hasn't been revealed yet, they use that same sort of technique, even if the writers or artists already know what the character will look like.

Genkai and Toguro's relationship was planned? Where do you guys learn about all this?

I mean from the beginning of the DT arc, it was planned out, which can be clearly seen since they drop you all sorts of clues that they know each other fairly well from before, pretty early on in the DT arc.

[talonmalon333]

No it wasn't, or at least not necessarily. Once again, you seem completely unfamiliar with this old technique in anime, but just because it shows those screens when another character is talking doesn't mean that its "their" perception of it. At any rate, perception was the best way I could put it into words. Its not necessarily how another character thinks a character they haven't seen might look like, but just something for the audience to view without really revealing the real identity of a character's actual design. And there is no proof that it was Koenma's perception of that character (in fact it can't be, since he clearly would have known what he really looked like). If you read the manga, Botan is the one who actually imagines King Enma looking that way (In the manga its implied that she hasn't ever met him in person at any point before the CB arc).

But the list goes on. They do show an actual character depiction. When Koenma reveals that King Enma will be back in a week, he actually shows up on Koenma's big screen. That one is an actual picture of him.

I mean from the beginning of the DT arc, it was planned out, which can be clearly seen since they drop you all sorts of clues that they know each other fairly well from before, pretty early on in the DT arc.

That makes sense. I was more referring to the other stuff, such as how you guys know they planned on Kurama being good but not Hiei.

He was afraid because his human body was not up to Karasu's level, at the point he didn't have a way of retaining his old form and he would certainly lose without it.

Then he finally transformed and it seemed that his human body was slowly regaining his old powers.

Also, Karasu's ace in the hole was his speed and charisma in masking his movements. With Kurama being able to get around that, Karasu was a much easier threat to deal with.

I was mostly referring to when Karasu's mask is removed. When he charges up and is exploding with power, Yoko seems unnerved. That doesn't seem like an A-class.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

But the list goes on. They do show an actual character depiction. When Koenma reveals that King Enma will be back in a week, he actually shows up on Koenma's big screen. That one is an actual picture of him.

That was in the anime only, though, so its non-canon. They never show his face on a screen in the manga. It just shows Botan imagining what he looks like in an angry state.

That makes sense. I was more referring to the other stuff, such as how you guys know they planned on Kurama being good but not Hiei.

Its no secret or anything. Recall that from his very first appearance, Kurama was never hostile towards Yusuke, nor did he express any interest in cooperating with Hiei and Gouki past getting the artifacts (in fact as soon as they had them, he ditched them both).

[talonmalon333]

What do you guys think about the point I made where the "almighty A-class" was passed over completely?

That was in the anime only, though, so its non-canon. They never show his face on a screen in the manga. It just shows Botan imagining what he looks like in an angry state.

Understood. Again, I need to reread the manga.

Its no secret or anything. Recall that from his very first appearance, Kurama was never hostile towards Yusuke, nor did he express any interest in cooperating with Hiei and Gouki past getting the artifacts (in fact as soon as they had them, he ditched them both).

Well yeah, Kurama was no secret. But what about Hiei? How do we know for sure he wasn't planned to join Yusuke?

[Spark Of Spirit]

Togashi mentioned in an interview once that Kurama was always planned to be a good guy, but Hiei wasn't at first.

As for the Karasu thing, Karasu was a B rank and Yoko Kurama was an A rank. Going gold wouldn't have brought him to A rank, or he would have beaten Toguro long ago.

[Aurora]

Wait ,wait wasn't Yoko Kurama still a B-class during Dark Tournament and jumped back to his original A in Chapter Black? What's the arguement here?

[talonmalon333]

As for the Karasu thing, Karasu was a B rank and Yoko Kurama was an A rank. Going gold wouldn't have brought him to A rank, or he would have beaten Toguro long ago.

That's not what I'm implying. I'm implying that Yoko Kurama wasn't an A.

Wait ,wait wasn't Yoko Kurama still a B-class during Dark Tournament and jumped back to his original A in Chapter Black? What's the arguement here?

Darn it! I retired from this theorizing long ago.

To make it short, as of the end of the tournament Kurama was a B. He DID jump up to an A in the next saga. That part's a fact. My question is about his demon form, Yoko Kurama. In the Dark Tournament they make him out to be fairly weak, and yet he's supposedly an A.