Things That Bother You About Gaming

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

The environments themselves are brilliant, but it's mostly more of an aesthetic thing than a level design thing, in that Bayonetta's levels are very linear. I still prefer the actual layout of the levels from games like DMC1 and NGB, since in terms of actual design, I found those to be more interesting to navigate.

[Spark Of Spirit]

That's one thing I really remember liking about DMC1. Running around the castle exploring things and finding new enemy types waiting. It was almost like a 3D Castlevania game in that respect.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

It's probably the closest thing that we'll ever get to a great 3D Castlevania game. Another funny thing about it is that it has way more classic Resident Evil elements in its design than some of the latest RE games have had.

I still like NGB's levels the best, though. It has more of a Zelda vibe to it, which I'm always a fan of.

[Foggle]

The environments themselves are brilliant, but it's mostly more of an aesthetic thing than a level design thing, in that Bayonetta's levels are very linear. I still prefer the actual layout of the levels from games like DMC1 and NGB, since in terms of actual design, I found those to be more interesting to navigate.

I agree with this. There's two kinds of good level design IMO:

- Creative levels that look amazing and are simply fun to play around in [Style]
- Intricate levels that feel realistic in terms of construction and encourage exploration [Substance]

One is not necessarily better than the other, but like you, I do prefer the latter. Though having some combination of both is my favorite design philosophy.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Yeah, I love Bayonetta's levels, as well as other linear games like NG2 and Vanquish that have interesting looking environments, but I'm more of a fan of Zelda, Metroid, or classic RE/RE4 style levels, where you feel like you aren't just restricted to going in one direction the entire time with just a couple of hidden items to find around each area for some pseudo-exploration. I prefer having some actual exploration.

That said, I should make it clear that I still love a really well put together action level that's very well-paced, even if it's linear. Stuff like the classic Mario and Sonic games as well as games like DKC and Mega Man X and their respective sequels are excellent at this, and as far as 3D games go, developers like Platinum are good at making their levels interesting even if the actual content is very simple, while developers like Bungie and Monolith are good when it comes to strategical environmental design and excellent atmosphere, respectively. That said, I will always personally prefer something like DOOM just because a well-designed labyrinth type set-up (with extra emphasis on it being "well designed" and not just maze-like for the sake of being nonlinear) really gives me something interesting to have fun with other than just killing monsters.

[gunswordfist]

i actually thought dmc had a bit too much backtracking. it has been over 10 years so take that with a grain of salt. what i like about bayonetta is the levels are long, action-packed...and have little backtracking. i just liked seeing new areas all the time.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

To me, DMC4 is an example of a game with too much backtracking. That's because, despite playing as a different character when you go back to sections, you still end up fighting the same enemies and bosses as Dante that you did as Nero. In DMC1, you were always encountering new enemies and challenges, and even when you went back to certain areas, things changed, such as the entire castle going dark, or having new paths open up to you. That to me makes each area feel that much more interesting.

As for Bayonetta, I like its levels for the same reason, but it's hardly the only game that has done that. Ninja Gaiden 2, Vanquish, and even DmC: Devil May Cry all throw different environments at you without reusing anything in later levels (with the exception of just one level in NG2, but it goes a complete overhaul from what you played through before, so it feels different than before). Granted that, Bayonetta looks the best aesthetically, but other than playing around with perspectives and occasionally throwing in some driving or flying section at you (which I actually never cared for, personally), the new areas don't feel like they have as much substance to them as something that constantly reveals new features and secrets every time that you go back to it. That's the difference between something that's backtracking and something that presents an interconnected world with good level design. Even when you go back to the same areas, it never feels the same, making each and every single area of the game feel that much more substantial and satisfying to experience, IMO.

[gunswordfist]

i meant dmc had a little bit too much backtracking, not a lot of bit. lol and yes, 4 went overboard. i haven't played ninja gaiden 1 in forever so i can't comment on it but i prefer bayonetta's levels over dmc 1 and ng2 because it had better platforming and more variety.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I don't know how it could have more variety than NG2 since that was factually a longer game and had more actual content to it, with completely different levels that looked nothing alike. In terms of having more platforming though, yeah, that was definitely there, though I'm not a fan of platforming in any of these games, myself. I will say that it was at least competently done in Bayonetta, though, whereas I can't say the same for NG and DMC.

[Foggle]

I honestly really enjoyed the platforming in Ninja Gaiden and Bayonetta. Devil May Cry platforming, though...

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Ninja Gaiden Black wasn't bad with the platforming, but I felt that 2 could get out of hand with it, especially with that clock tower segment where one missed jump could send you straight back to the bottom and force you to repeat entire minutes worth of platfmorming. On the other hand, doing an Izuna or Underworld Drop on an enemy from the very top and carrying him to the very bottom with his head turning into mush upon impact has to be the coolest fucking thing that I've ever done in any video game ever made (no exaggeration, here).

Bayonetta's platforming is basically the best that I've seen in this genre, so far. It's no Mario Galaxy, but for an action game it's surprisingly well put together.

[gunswordfist]

i meant bayonetta had longer levels, not that it was a longer game. i am not sure ng2 is longer anyway.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

i meant bayonetta had longer levels, not that it was a longer game. i am not sure ng2 is longer anyway.

While this could be subjective depending on how fast or slow you are at progressing through each individual game, I personally feel that this is incorrect. Unless you downright go out of your way to skip almost every single fight in NG2, the levels in that game (and the game in general) are longer than Bayonetta. The average level in NG2 takes about 45-60 minutes to completely a first run, whereas Bayonetta's longest levels never took me more than 40 minutes, and some levels were just 10 minute boss fights, while others varied in length, with only about a third of them actually being that long.

Also, My first playthrough of Bayonetta clocked in at around 10 hours, compared to 13 hours for my first NG2 run, and NG2 has less levels than Bayonetta, meaning that each one lasted me longer, individually.

[gunswordfist]

whoa, 10 hours? my playthrough was way longer.

[Foggle]

Bad news, GSF.

http://www.cnet.com/news/bethesda-confirms-prey-2-cancelled/

Such a shame, this was one of my most anticipated games for quite some time.